why white soul singers/rappers and black rockers have a hard time breaking through?

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

whats your opinion on this?

[Adam Crocker]

As of the current music scene, or overall? I don't know about presently, but I can't say that white soul singers have exactly had a hard time of looking at music history. (Even if many of those that have broken through have done so by offerring a watered-down version of their source material.)

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

i mean overall

[Adam Crocker]

Well I can't say that white soul singers have necessarily had a hard time overall considering the examples of the Righteous Brothers, Joe Cocker, Rod Stewart (both in folk rock and soul pop modes in the 70s), the Doobie Brothers, Simply Red, the Box Tops, David Bowie scoring his first #1 in America with "Fame" from Young Americans, Van Morrison, Michael McDonald, Rare Earth, Michael Bolton (see what I mean about Blue Eyed Soul singers scoring hits with scrubbed-down soul?), Hall & Oates, Average White Band, Dusty Springfield, the Backstreet Boys (who were just the latest to offered up watered down soul to white audiences), and Steven Winwood in the 80s. Hell, if you want you can even throw in Led Zeppelin's Robert Plant as an example of a successful soul singer. (Though they were never thought of as a soul band.)

And for acts specifically popular in Britain you can count Winwood's the Spencer Davis Group and Traffic, Dexy's Midnight Runners (popular in the country two years before "Come On Eileen") and late Jam/early Style Council/solo Paul Weller.

So I'd say there's a pretty good line of evidence for white soul singers not exactly having a hard time of it, probably even moreso than the black musicians that inspired them. However, I cannot think of any more recent examples. I'll have to think about the other questions for a bit.

[blackdragon6]

i think its alot easier for soul singers to market their music to whites than blacks.but than again theres remy shand,and jon b.but threir R&B isn't watered down its pure urban.i personally think the watered down white souls singers don't count sense their music is watered down.

rock artists are stuck in a rock and a hard place eitherway though.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

i tyhink black rockers have a hard time being excepted because they usually fuse rock with several other urban styles of music so it throws white audiences off.and the rock aspect seems to throw black listeners off.hell black rock bands was probably new metal,and alternative even before their was a such thing.

[blackdragon6]

in order for white rappers to suceed IN the black demographic they have to be RAPPERS.i'm not talking about some underground lyrical rapper i mean they have to be rapping.i'm talking about 2pac,mc eiht,scarface type rapping.


black rockers have to somehow appeal to black people.thats pretty much what eminem did to his white audience.they make up a large chunk of his fanbase,most of them probably aren't rap fans.they just like him because he's a white rapper talking about stuff they can relate too.kinda like the aformentioned black rappers.

[KenK]

i tyhink black rockers have a hard time being excepted because they usually fuse rock with several other urban styles of music so it throws white audiences off.

What are you talking about? I'm sorry, but I'm not pussy-footing around this one. Once rock and roll had been successfully appropriated from blacks by whites, blacks were no longer need. The combination of an influx of white rock artists and blacks delving into other forms of music has led to a generation of music listeners (black and white) who seem to have forgotten that many pioneers of the genre were indeed black. To say nothing of when rap blew up and eventually become(and still is) the dominant music of black people. R&B singers work with producers who work primarily in the realm of rap and hip-hop. Even Ricky Martin's trying desperately to jumpstart his career, doing a collabo(note the slang, sun!) with Fat Joe.

But what of Prince, or Lenny Kravitz? Not to take away from either of them, as I'm a fan of both, but if they were a few shades darker, someone would have pumped the brakes on their careers a while ago. Add to that, there was still leeway for any artist trying to break new ground in music back in Prince's day. Lenny benefitted from the "hippie chic" craze of the late 80s early 90s', sort of a response to the Cold War and whatnot.

and the rock aspect seems to throw black listeners off.

Maybe if blacks weren't conditioned to believe that black people doing rock is abnormal.

[Adam Crocker]

i personally think the watered down white souls singers don't count sense their music is watered down.

How so? Stylistically it is still soul just as sure as stylistically as Good Charolette is punk.

[Phrozen]

whats your opinion on this?

I think it is just stereotypical notions that the record companies have.

[Arrjay]

It's like I always say; White guys should never be allowed to sing the blues and Black guys shouldn't have mohawks. Unless you're Mr. T. In which case you can kick my ass.

[KenK]

It's like I always say; White guys should never be allowed to sing the blues and Black guys shouldn't have mohawks. Unless you're Mr. T. In which case you can kick my ass.

Gee, that's not narrow-minded, even in the slightest!

EDIT: Unless you're just joking. Still, check out this site.

www.afropunk.com

[ocelotrevs]

Stereotypes basically

Like for me, a black fella who likes rock, I usually get the shocked looks. And slagging off. And that's my mum. ;)
A few friends were also like "aww you know what, you ain't ever gonna find a black girl who likes rock. You're gonna be lonely for the rest of your life" (incidently that was the same week I saw another black person in a rock magazine)

You also have the stigma attached, most people think rock is all about slitting your wrists & shit, and that ain't really associated with black people (from my experience)

I did see a show on the BBC that had a black rock band featured, and they weren't a pub band either, they were playing stadiums and stuff.

With white people in soul and stuff. A lot of the soul stems from oppresion, now you ain't really seen much white people hanging from trees and stuff like that.
They're seen too be frauds and stuff

[Adam Crocker]

It's like I always say; White guys should never be allowed to sing the blues...

Well unless you are joking...

What about Paul Butterfield and Rory Gallagher? (Yes I have to name drop.)


EDIT: Unless you're just joking. Still, check out this site.

www.afropunk.com

RAWK!!! I wanna see this movie!

[blackdragon6]

What are you talking about? I'm sorry, but I'm not pussy-footing around this one. Once rock and roll had been successfully appropriated from blacks by whites, blacks were no longer need. The combination of an influx of white rock artists and blacks delving into other forms of music has led to a generation of music listeners (black and white) who seem to have forgotten that many pioneers of the genre were indeed black.



i'm not putting words in her mouth but i think she knows that.she's refering to the white listeners who are put off by black rock/metal music thats infused with other urban genre music.like soul,rap,reggae,hell basicly any form of melody.

[Adam Crocker]

i'm not putting words in her mouth but i think she knows that.she's refering to the white listeners who are put off by black rock/metal music thats infused with other urban genre music.like soul,rap,reggae,hell basicly any form of melody.

Can you name any examples? I'm actually curious as to what black rock bands there are out there that inform their music with any 'urban' musical style (though to me its all R&B).

Though I am curious as to what you mean by "any form of melody" putting off rock listeners. :confused:

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

i'm not putting words in her mouth but i think she knows that.she's refering to the white listeners who are put off by black rock/metal music thats infused with other urban genre music.like soul,rap,reggae,hell basicly any form of melody.thats more or less what i meant.as a matter of fact thats why i think artists like living color,and faith no more latter albums flew over people's head.and to a lesser exstent dionne farris first and only album aswell.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

in all honestly our generation of blacks (teens to early 30's) wasn't around when chuck berry,jimi hendrix and the like was doing rock music.and to be blunt the younger black generation grew up around R&B,and the rising art form of hip-hop.also hip-hop/rap IS our form of rock-n-roll/metal/punk whateva.it doesn't really makes them bad people because their not into it.just like white people who cant get into soul or rap.its real subjective anyway.if their not into their simply not into it

[Adam Crocker]

thats more or less what i meant.as a matter of fact thats why i think artists like living color,and faith no more latter albums flew over people's head.and to a lesser exstent dionne farris first and only album aswell.

If you guys are still talking exclusively about black rock bands here then weren't Faith No More's members white?

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

yeah but i guess the same principle apply lol,didn't they aseem like a black rock band? lol

[KenK]

i'm not putting words in her mouth but i think she knows that.she's refering to the white listeners who are put off by black rock/metal music thats infused with other urban genre music.like soul,rap,reggae,hell basicly any form of melody.

I don't know, I've seen more instances of white rock bands doing that like 311 and Sublime, Sugar Ray. And all those guys seemed to be pretty popular while infusing rock with soul, reggae and rap.

[KenK]

RAWK!!! I wanna see this movie!

It's difficult. Go on the Community boards and see about hosting a screening.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

I don't know, I've seen more instances of white rock bands doing that like 311 and Sublime, Sugar Ray. And all those guys seemed to be pretty popular while infusing rock with soul, reggae and rap.they have alot of destracters aswell.............albeit mostly elitist jack asses,kinda like the equilivant of "back packer" hip-hop heads.

[Adam Crocker]

yeah but i guess the same principle apply lol,didn't they aseem like a black rock band? lol

I don't know. I haven't gotten around to listening to them yet. Though if their last album was taking on the characteristics of Mike Patton's other, less commercial projects then it might have gone over people's heads for being WEIRD. (Mind you I'm just going on Patton's other music and reputation though I know Faith No More was significantly more commercial...at least compared to Mr. Bungle.)

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

in order for white rappers to suceed IN the black demographic they have to be RAPPERS.i'm not talking about some underground lyrical rapper i mean they have to be rapping.i'm talking about 2pac,mc eiht,scarface type rapping.

.
i generally agree i guess thats why emenim didn't do it for me.as far as the true white soul singers go.i think it has more to do with a diying genre (as far as mainstream apeal goes) than race.black modern/retro soul acts have a hard time getting played.even on adult contemparary R&B stations.thats why i'm shocked maxwell and d'angelo was so well received when they camed out.keep in mind this was the early to mid 90's where hip-hop/R&B became the stapple R&B genre

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

I don't know. I haven't gotten around to listening to them yet. Though if their last album was taking on the characteristics of Mike Patton's other, less commercial projects then it might have gone over people's heads for being WEIRD. (Mind you I'm just going on Patton's other music and reputation though I know Faith No More was significantly more commercial...at least compared to Mr. Bungle.)i'm not familier with mike's side projects.tish probably knows more about that than i do.

[Adam Crocker]

i'm not familier with mike's side projects.tish probably knows more about that than i do.

Well I wouldn't say that Mr. Bungle was a side project. Patton had already started up that band when Faith No More approached him about needing a new vocalist and hired him based on the Mr. Bungle demo. Nor for that matter did he jump at the chance to be their vocalist being quite happy as a college student and with his own band so he made it clear he would be a member of both.

Anyways whereas Faith No More leaned more towards funk-rap-metal, Mr. Bungle's sound was virtually unclassifiable. It basically was this bizarre music that would switch styles and even genres in the middle of song. The only other musicians that were similar to it being avante-garde saxophonist John Zorn's noise rock project Naked City whose approach was similar though more rooted in avante-garde jazz than heavy metal background (and whom Patton worked with on a few occasions as well as releasing solo albums through Zorn's Tzadik label) and Carl Stalling, the composer for the music to the old Looney Tunes cartoons. (Perhaps the most successful avante-garde composer ever! Switching rhythms and tempos as well as musical styles at a drop of a hat, breaking all accepted rules of composition, while making music for children's cartoons.)

[blackdragon6]

in all honestly our generation of blacks (teens to early 30's) wasn't around when chuck berry,jimi hendrix and the like was doing rock music.and to be blunt the younger black generation grew up around R&B,and the rising art form of hip-hop.also hip-hop/rap IS our form of rock-n-roll/metal/punk whateva.it doesn't really makes them bad people because their not into it.just like white people who cant get into soul or rap.its real subjective anyway.if their not into their simply not into itthats true................

[Hiromi]

Thin Lizzy had plenty of success(though to get techincal I think Lynott was actually Brazillian and not of African desent), Jimi Hendrix needs no explination, to my knowledge Sevendust does pretty well for themselves.

[The Mirrorball Man]

It seems to be the consequence of the American brand of radio formatting, where every style has its own radio station, and everything that falls in between, or that tries to mix several styles is doomed to fail. In Europe, skin color doesn't play such an important part in determining what kind of music you're allowed to play/listen.

[Adam Crocker]

Thin Lizzy had plenty of success(though to get techincal I think Lynott was actually Brazillian and not of African desent)...

Yes, his father was Brazilian, his Mom Irish. Of course Thin Lizzy is not only another anomaly in the rock racial divisions, but Lynott's skin colour was several shades lighter than most black people.

...Jimi Hendrix needs no explination...

Well Hendrix was not only another anomaly, but he was the first black rocker since the 50s to enjoy mainstream success. Interestingly enough his fanbase tended to be more white than black.

[blackdragon6]

It seems to be the consequence of the American brand of radio formatting, where every style has its own radio station, and everything that falls in between, or that tries to mix several styles is doomed to fail.
i agree..........

[PeteGunn]

Do people sing anymore?:(

[beryl]

All this talk about Black Rockers not breaking through... and no Bad Brains? Sure, Punk. But Last I checked it was Punk "ROCK".

I can agree with view that "White" Rock seems to be the most accessible and oft times only source of Rock that gets instilled with Youth. (which I know is totally bunk, but when you say "ROCK'N'ROLL" I picture the Stones, Nirvana, Alice in Chains and not Chuck Berry or even Chubby Checker. Sad I know.)

I'm Asian, and as a Kid/teen I was(and still am) shocked to see Asians in Rock. James Iha was the first... but now it's Guitar Wolf and E.E.S.

Plus, it was hard growing up to accept "ROCK" as my music. I was a middle child and the Radio was owned by my Parents who played Traditional "Hmong" music(Inquire at your own risk), and my Older Siblings who were into Hip-hop and Rap.

On the other hand though, I didn't even know In Living Colour were black til years after I stopped listening to them. I saw one their videos and said to myself. "Wow I used to love this song... WOW, Those Dudes are Black!! YEH!!!"

-

[Adam Crocker]

All this talk about Black Rockers not breaking through... and no Bad Brains? Sure, Punk. But Last I checked it was Punk "ROCK".

I can't believe I forgot Bad Brains... :eek:

*Goes to commit Seppuku*

[howyadoin]

i tyhink black rockers have a hard time being excepted because they usually fuse rock with several other urban styles of music so it throws white audiences off.and the rock aspect seems to throw black listeners off.From what I've read, Hendrix had a really hard time selling to black audiences.

[Adam Crocker]

From what I've read, Hendrix had a really hard time selling to black audiences.

Me too. In fact, it was observed that among soldiers in 'Nam, it was the white soldiers who were listening to Hendrix while the black soldiers were listening to stuff like James Brown and Motown.

[howyadoin]

i'm not putting words in her mouth but i think she knows that.she's refering to the white listeners who are put off by black rock/metal music thats infused with other urban genre music.like soul,rap,reggae,hell basicly any form of melody.I'd say there's a much bigger emphasis on melody (as opposed to rhythm) in so-called "white" music than there is in hiphop.

[KenK]

All this talk about Black Rockers not breaking through... and no Bad Brains? Sure, Punk. But Last I checked it was Punk "ROCK".

Yeah, but c'mon, it's not like you can compare them breaking through to like Sex Pistols or The Clash. They were still overshadowed by predominantly white bands.

[beryl]

Yeah, but c'mon, it's not like you can compare them breaking through to like Sex Pistols or The Clash. They were still overshadowed by predominantly white bands.

I believe that was a point of this thread. That Black artists like The Bad Brains(As good as they were) have been Overshadowed by their "White" contemporaries.

I can see this from an American standpoint, but how has this(if at all) affected the English and Europeans?

[The Mirrorball Man]

I can see this from an American standpoint, but how has this(if at all) affected the English and Europeans?
Ask Kele Okereke, I'd say he's doing fine.

[elheffe]

Ask Kele Okereke, I'd say he's doing fine.
Yes, Bloc Party fucking rock.

[Alex]

There have been about as many huge black rockers recently as their have been white rappers.
The difference is, even white people often consider white rappers sort of phoney, where generaly, you don't hear a black guy doing a rock song and think "Oh this sucks, he's black!"
This could be because when i hear a black rock singer, he just sounds like a male singer.
Go back a long ways and you can find Chuck Berry, then you hit Hendrix, theres a couple super influential guys for you.
I think, in general, when you get into the sub genres, it becomes more mucky.
The vague Alternative Rock genre is hard to find black singers in the high levels because the most famous bands that started it were white.
If you want to jump all the way back to velvet underground, no one is going to mistake lou reed for a black guy. If you jump forward, the Pixies and REM are just really white, physically.
Then you have your vaugely rockish superstars, like Kravitz...who, is only half black anyway, but his music did have electric guitar solos at one point. Prince, while i would call him more of a generaly pop music genius, mixed in some pretty nice rock bits with his music, and he certainly hasn't had any problems in sales or critical acclaim, and thats with an often eclectic style of music.
I don't think it's really a problem, i don't imagine a lot of black people are saying "You know what i'd like? a Kick ass rap disk by a white guy." They just want a really good rap album.
On the other side, white people aren't saying, "You know, we really need a hard core rock disk from a black guy", we just want a really good album.

[StoneGold]

Does Slash count as black?


Yeah, I didn't think so either.


Course, sometimes you get a black rock band, and they still get billed as rap. Remember Body Count? Ice-T's metal band? Got all the controversy for Cop Killer? Helped fuel the controversy that rap was destroying our youth, despite the fact it was a metal song?

[Ayo]

I'm tired of Jimi Hendrix and Bad Brains.

Why does it have to be Jimi Jimi Hendrix and Bad Brains Bad Brains Bad Brains all day? Jimi Brains and Bad Hendrix, 247.


They're good artists and all, but why do we have to talk about them just because they're black?

[Alex]

They're good artists and all, but why do we have to talk about them just because they're black?
Because it's the topic of the thread?
If you mean in general, its because a lot of people really love Hendrix, and it has nothing to do with his skin color.
I can think of several instances here when i have expressed that i don't particularly like Hendrix, and no one ever brought race into it.
Now, they could have, more likely to happen if it was on the comm board because someone would reason that since i like Eddie Van Halen more then Hendrix, i am a racist.

[howyadoin]

I'm tired of Jimi Hendrix and Bad Brains.

Why does it have to be Jimi Jimi Hendrix and Bad Brains Bad Brains Bad Brains all day? Jimi Brains and Bad Hendrix, 247.

They're good artists and all, but why do we have to talk about them just because they're black?The topic is black rock. If you got somebody else, fucking say so already.

[Ayo]

The topic is black rock. If you got somebody else, fucking say so already.

As Alex guessed, I was thinking more "in general," than just on the topic at hand.


A lot of black rock fans seem to have this complex in which they worship Bad Brains, Fishbone, Hendrix...but have a limited experience with the bands/artists that aren't both black AND the "best thing ever." Like, I hate when black people talk about Jimi Hendrix, but could give a fuck about rock in general. I LOVE Jimi Hendrix. But I love Dylan, Lennon and the other Jim's (Morrison, Page) as well.

When talking about black rock, you WILL talk about Hendrix and Bad Brains and other lesser artists like Kravitz, Fishbone and so on...but it's the "be all, end all" mentality that makes me question the depth of certain people's interest.





And I imagine you'd find it presumptuous of me to question the depth of someone else's interest, but c'mon--we're all music nerds here.

[blackdragon6]

It seems to be the consequence of the American brand of radio formatting, where every style has its own radio station, and everything that falls in between, or that tries to mix several styles is doomed to fail. .
as a matter of fact i think this is a major problem.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

As Alex guessed, I was thinking more "in general," than just on the topic at hand.


A lot of black rock fans seem to have this complex in which they worship Bad Brains, Fishbone, Hendrix...but have a limited experience with the bands/artists that aren't both black AND the "best thing ever." Like, I hate when black people talk about Jimi Hendrix, but could give a fuck about rock in general. .thats a double edged sword my friend,i hardly ever hear whites talk about black rockers (hendrix nonwithstanding)


in my case i like white rock/metal bands BUT i'm more partial to black rockers i just like the way they do it.especialy living color.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

I'd say there's a much bigger emphasis on melody (as opposed to rhythm) in so-called "white" music than there is in hiphop.i'm pretty sure rappers like bone thugs-n-harmony,the roots,warren g,among others would dissagree

[The Mirrorball Man]

as a matter of fact i think this is a major problem.
I agree. It's hard to imagine something like Gorillaz coming from America.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

This could be because when i hear a black rock singer, he just sounds like a male singer.
corey glover and lajon sound nothing like a typical rock singer,especialy a white one.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

I think, in general, when you get into the sub genres, it becomes more mucky.
The vague Alternative Rock genre is hard to find black singers in the high levels because the most famous bands that started it were white.
personally i think bands like phishbone and living color was "alternative" and "new metal" before their even was a such thing.white bands just got the credit for it.

[howyadoin]

i'm pretty sure rappers like bone thugs-n-harmony,the roots,warren g,among others would dissagreeOkay, let's look at it another way: would you say that their music puts more emphasis on melody than on the beat?

Just curious; I only know a few songs by these artists.

[howyadoin]

As Alex guessed, I was thinking more "in general," than just on the topic at hand.


A lot of black rock fans seem to have this complex in which they worship Bad Brains, Fishbone, Hendrix...but have a limited experience with the bands/artists that aren't both black AND the "best thing ever." Like, I hate when black people talk about Jimi Hendrix, but could give a fuck about rock in general. I LOVE Jimi Hendrix. But I love Dylan, Lennon and the other Jim's (Morrison, Page) as well.

When talking about black rock, you WILL talk about Hendrix and Bad Brains and other lesser artists like Kravitz, Fishbone and so on...but it's the "be all, end all" mentality that makes me question the depth of certain people's interest.





And I imagine you'd find it presumptuous of me to question the depth of someone else's interest, but c'mon--we're all music nerds here.I get what you're sayin', but it's like coming into a Beatles thread to ask why people are talking about the Beatles.

Duh - because it's a Beatles thread.

[howyadoin]

personally i think bands like phishbone and living color was "alternative" and "new metal" before their even was a such thing.white bands just got the credit for it.What's weird is how much the press coverage on Living Colour talked mainly about Hendrix similarities, and barely mentioned how giganticly far ahead of their time they were.

[elheffe]

corey glover and lajon sound nothing like a typical rock singer,especialy a white one.
Gotta disagree. I was a back-water Colorado hick when I first heard Living Color. We didn't have MTV in those parts and I had no idea that they were black until I bought the record and saw a picture of them.

[howyadoin]

Gotta disagree. I was a back-water Colorado hick when I first heard Living Color. We didn't have MTV in those parts and I had no idea that they were black until I bought the record and saw a picture of them.Did you hear "Funny Vibe" or "Open Letter to a Landlord" before you bought it?

[elheffe]

Did you hear "Funny Vibe" or "Open Letter to a Landlord" before you bought it?
Nope. Just 'Cult of Personality.'

[Dennis K]

Why do they have a hard time breaking through? Because it's easier to put a label on somebody and keep them in that box.

[blackdragon6]

Okay, let's look at it another way: would you say that their music puts more emphasis on melody than on the beat?

Just curious; I only know a few songs by these artists.well bone for startes whole lyrical niche was their melodic flow not really the beats.but the beats and their flow.wich started other rappers like sandman,and tech9ne to do the same thing.


unfortunatley it also brought us rappers like nelly and pretty ricky *ugh* i'm pretty sure bone apologizes for that. :(

[Bakema NL]

Last friday I went to see Dutch gothic/metal band After forever. Opening for them was Novact, whom I didn't know...........but they were absolutely great, you can categorize them (if you will) as a progrock band and they have a black singer, or he's of mixed race. He has some hints of Mike Patton in his voice when I hear him sing. I definitely hope these guys really break through, I bought the cd at the gig and it's damn good. Nice to see a black singer in rock, there should be more. At metal gigs I see an increasing number of black people attending and that's great, I like to see a mixed audience enjoying the same stuff, be it in metal or somewhere else. It can lead to people making music in fields you wouldn't expect and a lot of times the results are very interesting as they bring a "something else" to the music.
Novact's a nice band, check them out... http://www.novact.nl

[Alex]

personally i think bands like phishbone and living color was "alternative" and "new metal" before their even was a such thing.white bands just got the credit for it.
well, unfurtuently, living colors first album came out in ....what, 89? 90?
REM's first album came out in like 82, and im only going with REM formass appeal, alternative rock as it stands now has its roots in bands from the 70's, mainly white bands, often non american.
It's not a race thing, the actual reality is that bands made up of white people were the ones who started the movement.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

well, unfurtuently, living colors first album came out in ....what, 89? 90?
REM's first album came out in like 82, and im only going with REM formass appeal, alternative rock as it stands now has its roots in bands from the 70's, mainly white bands, .who got their style from other black bands...yeah i'm late responding give me a break...

[HomerJay]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/HomerJay64/rick.jpg

[Slappy san]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/HomerJay64/rick.jpg

I refused to believe he was real when I was watching the video.