Why doesnt Rachel hate Logan?

[fishtaco]

In Uncanny X-Men 207, Wolverine stabbed Rachel in the heart, because she was about to murder Selene, the Black Queen. In an interview, Chris Claremont said that Logan stabbed her because he was afraid that she would become Dark Phoenix.

Common X-knowledge. I bought Essential X-Men 6 yesterday and for the first time actually read the issue, but I never actually wondered till now. Why are Rachel and Logan buddies in Uncanny? Especiall in that scene in Uncanny X-Men 447? I must have missed something.

Two more thoughts.

If Logan didnt (attempt to) kill Rachel, do you think she would have become Dark Phoenix? She seemed pretty Dark Phoenix-y in Uncanny X-Men 202-203 when she tried to kill the beyonder, and took the X-Men and Starjammers to the White Hot Room (White Hot City?).

Also, that crystal necklace that Rachel is wearing right now in Uncanny. Is that supposed to be reminiscent of that crystal ball that Lilandra gave John and Elaine Grey in Uncanny X-Men 138, and Rachel took it to become Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men 199?

Also, when did Cyclops actually learn that Rachel is his "daughter"?

[Dizzy D]

Various reasons:

Back in Excalibur Rachel's memories were erased by the Phoenix including several of the memories regarding that incident. All done by the Phoenix to protect Rachel.

Secondly in Excalibur, Rachel met an alternate reality version of the Shadow King who recreated the scene and had Shadow King disguised as Wolverine trying to get her to kill Selene this time, but Rachel remembered the original scene and attacked the Shadow King, telling him that she thought that Wolverine was right to stop her.

edit: Cyclops probably learned that Rachel was his daughter from Jean: remember Rachel confronted Jean when she returned from the death. Otherwise during Days of Future Present when Ahab turned Cyclops into a hound. (Then there is always the possibility that Scott figured it out a long time ago. Her looking like Jean and calling herself Phoenix certainly should ring a few bells, but just decided not to confront her about it till she was ready.)

[jeangreydp]

Also, when did Cyclops actually learn that Rachel is his "daughter"?

He learned at the same time Jean did in an X-factor Annual, (4 maybe?) I can't remember which number, but they were fighting Franklin Richards and Ahab.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Why? Likely because Wolverine is the most protected character in the X-Universe today. If she got mad at him, he would have to get slapped around again by another powerful mutant he stands no chance against.

[Archer]

Why *would* Rachel hate Logan for that? IIRC he had good reason for stabbing her, and as an X-Man she should understand that in the heat of the moment people might have to make difficult decisions when one of their teammates is getting whacked out.

[The Lucky One]

If she got mad at him, he would have to get slapped around again by another powerful mutant he stands no chance against.

You mean the same way he did every. single. issue. for the first 20 or so issues of the All-New X-Men? ;) Ah, for the days before he became a golden boy... good times.

-D

[DDM]

In Uncanny X-Men 207, Wolverine stabbed Rachel in the heart, because she was about to murder Selene, the Black Queen. In an interview, Chris Claremont said that Logan stabbed her because he was afraid that she would become Dark Phoenix.

Rachel Summers & Franklin Richards met up with Wolverine, Psylocke & Jubilee in the second story in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. Rachel, at this point, still resents Logan not allowing her to kill Selene, the Black Queen.


Common X-knowledge. I bought Essential X-Men 6 yesterday and for the first time actually read the issue, but I never actually wondered till now. Why are Rachel and Logan buddies in Uncanny? Especiall in that scene in Uncanny X-Men 447? I must have missed something.

By the time Uncanny X-Men #444 was published, Rachel Summers had been the Mother Askani & died (re: The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4) then she was shunted to the end of time & save by Cable. Rachel had somehow lost her connection to the Phoenix. Her Hound tattoos & memories had been cleaned from her mind. Basically, Rachel Summers had been stipped of everything Claremont had established before. Rachel is still herself, but Claremont has to rebuild her character from the ground up. This takes time.


If Logan didnt (attempt to) kill Rachel, do you think she would have become Dark Phoenix? She seemed pretty Dark Phoenix-y in Uncanny X-Men 202-203 when she tried to kill the beyonder, and took the X-Men and Starjammers to the White Hot Room (White Hot City?).

Rachel's original Phoenix costume is red for a reason; however, not because she might become Dark Phoenix, but her tragic history is written on her face & scarred soul as being a former Hound. Rachel tried to overcompensate for her own past deeds as well as Dark Phoenix's deeds by doing what she thought was right. Killing Selene may or may not have transformed Rachel into Dark Phoenix II. Rachel just had access to vast powers, although she had not changed really. In Uncanny X-Men #196, she wanted to kill the killers who almost murdered Kitty; in Uncanny X-Men #189, Rachel & Amara went after Selene all by themselves within the Hellfire Club; in X-Men-Alpha Flight #1, Rachel exchanged the psyches from Aurora to Jeanie-Marie. As Phoenix, she just has more access to the cosmos, but she is still bloodthirsty.


Also, that crystal necklace that Rachel is wearing right now in Uncanny. Is that supposed to be reminiscent of that crystal ball that Lilandra gave John and Elaine Grey in Uncanny X-Men 138, and Rachel took it to become Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men 199?

The necklace is a modified version of the Shi'ar Holempathic Matrix Crystal. Rachel used the Holempathic Matrix Crystal to realize her own potential as a catalyst to become Phoenix. Rachel's hound programming & drugs caused her psi abilities to be tainted; otherwise, she would have become Phoenix on her own Earth.


Also, when did Cyclops actually learn that Rachel is his "daughter"?

Cyclops had deduced sometime between Uncanny X-Men #184-201; however, Rachel never explicitely stated she is Cyclops's daughter until X-Factor Annual #4 when Phoenix II met Cyclops & Marvel Girl.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Cyclops had deduced sometime between Uncanny X-Men #184-201...

Yes, the scene between Scott and Rachel at the end of X-Men/Alpha Flight strongly suggests that he's figured out Rachel's true identity, but he doesn't come right out and say it. That's actually probably my favorite Cyclops scene ever ... when I'm feeling annoyed and disgusted with him, I go back and re-read that scene and remember that he can be a really, really good guy when he wants to be.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Rachel Summers & Franklin Richards met up with Wolverine, Psylocke & Jubilee in the second story in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14. Rachel, at this point, still resents Logan not allowing her to kill Selene, the Black Queen.



By the time Uncanny X-Men #444 was published, Rachel Summers had been the Mother Askani & died (re: The Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix #1-4) then she was shunted to the end of time & save by Cable. Rachel had somehow lost her connection to the Phoenix. Her Hound tattoos & memories had been cleaned from her mind. Basically, Rachel Summers had been stipped of everything Claremont had established before. Rachel is still herself, but Claremont has to rebuild her character from the ground up. This takes time.



Rachel remembers her time in Excalibur, along with her hate for Selene and The other members of The Hellfire Club.

(Even though the write of Cable ensured that The X-men not know of her returned. This writer wrote her as a "blank past" character than Claremont has. CC tried, but he "slips").

She remembers that every time she joins The X-Men, her mother is gone.

She knows that Kate/Shadowcat is more family than her own..

(2nd Mother/Aunt in her future/past... Sister of her recent past and present)

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Yes, the scene between Scott and Rachel at the end of X-Men/Alpha Flight strongly suggests that he's figured out Rachel's true identity, but he doesn't come right out and say it. That's actually probably my favorite Cyclops scene ever ... when I'm feeling annoyed and disgusted with him, I go back and re-read that scene and remember that he can be a really, really good guy when he wants to be.

..but nobody seemed to care what happened to her after Wolverine stabbed her..

He didn't see Spiral arrive..

[Erik Lehnsherr]

You mean the same way he did every. single. issue. for the first 20 or so issues of the All-New X-Men? ;) Ah, for the days before he became a golden boy... good times.

-D

How can I not appreciate issues such as those? Go Rachel Go!

[fishtaco]

..but nobody seemed to care what happened to her after Wolverine stabbed her..

He didn't see Spiral arrive..Are you kidding? They werent able to find Rachel right after Logan stabbed her because they were fighting for their lives against Nimrod in a desperate alliance with the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club. Spiral snatched her when they were fighting. Nobody cared!??!?! They did all they can to look for both Rachel and Kurt after they dissapeared. They luckily found Nightcrawler, and they did all they could to find Rachel. Logan and Storm even went to the exact point where she was last on Earth (That stage). Logan said that her trail ended here. Nothing more could have been done about it. She was beyond them. They definitely cared. Kitty was mad at Logan for awhile, too.

[Dizzy D]

Rachel remembers her time in Excalibur, along with her hate for Selene and The other members of The Hellfire Club.

(Even though the write of Cable ensured that The X-men not know of her returned. This writer wrote her as a "blank past" character than Claremont has. CC tried, but he "slips").

She remembers that every time she joins The X-Men, her mother is gone.

She knows that Kate/Shadowcat is more family than her own..

(2nd Mother/Aunt in her future/past... Sister of her recent past and present)

I can't remember Rachel being a blank slate in the Weinberg-run. She recognised Cable, she knew about the other X-men. The only thing Rachel didn't remember was the Askani-future for obvious reasons: due to the time-change she hadn't lived it. I think there has been a misinterpretation somewhere along the line.

[Cowlander]

Short answer is 'cuz hes UNK'A WOLVIE reading bed time stories to all the younger X-peeps. Remember all cool characters are best buds and drinking buddies with him. Hopefully offing NS will atleast temper some of that.

[DDM]

Are you kidding? They werent able to find Rachel right after Logan stabbed her because they were fighting for their lives against Nimrod in a desperate alliance with the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club. Spiral snatched her when they were fighting. Nobody cared!??!?! They did all they can to look for both Rachel and Kurt after they dissapeared. They luckily found Nightcrawler, and they did all they could to find Rachel. Logan and Storm even went to the exact point where she was last on Earth (That stage). Logan said that her trail ended here. Nothing more could have been done about it. She was beyond them. They definitely cared. Kitty was mad at Logan for awhile, too.

Kitty felt guilty of not thinking of Rachel after Phoenix had contacted Shadowcat through her dreams in Excalibur Special Edition #1 then Kitty saw the Phoenix Effect in the sunrise heralding Phoenix's return to Earth...

The Marauders slaughtered the Morlocks which made the X-Men shift priorities from Rachel to the Marauders over several issues...

[Elias Bogan]

About the crystal Rachel NOW wears around her heck, it was first seen in 447 and Logan reveals that it was left for Rachel alongwith the costume by Jean shortly before she died. She has mostly kept in under her costume except for 447 and now during the HoM arc.

[jeangreydp]

Yes, the scene between Scott and Rachel at the end of X-Men/Alpha Flight strongly suggests that he's figured out Rachel's true identity, but he doesn't come right out and say it. That's actually probably my favorite Cyclops scene ever ... when I'm feeling annoyed and disgusted with him, I go back and re-read that scene and remember that he can be a really, really good guy when he wants to be.


Oh phooey!!

I haven't ever read this or heard about it!!!

Tell me more! What happens in this scene?

[jadegiant77]

gosh, it's been sooo long since I read that. All I remember is that, due to Loki's manipulations, Cyke had full control of his eye beams, but in the end he lost them. He was thinking something to the effect that he wanted to cry, but due to his powers, he couldn't. Ray read his thoughts and comforted him...

AHHH...anybody else got a better summary?

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Are you kidding? They werent able to find Rachel right after Logan stabbed her because they were fighting for their lives against Nimrod in a desperate alliance with the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club. Spiral snatched her when they were fighting. Nobody cared!??!?! They did all they can to look for both Rachel and Kurt after they dissapeared. They luckily found Nightcrawler, and they did all they could to find Rachel. Logan and Storm even went to the exact point where she was last on Earth (That stage). Logan said that her trail ended here. Nothing more could have been done about it. She was beyond them. They definitely cared. Kitty was mad at Logan for awhile, too.


Oh..

I remember that now..

I really wasn't a collector then..
I read 'em, and tossed 'em..

I stand corrected..

That did happen, I just couldn't remember the "follow-up" by CC.

I did remember fighting Nimrod..Then Mauraders..

Still, I didn't remeber them trying that hard, but comic-time is way different.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Oh phooey!!

I haven't ever read this or heard about it!!!

Tell me more! What happens in this scene?

Check out the very detailed issue summaries at Uncanny X-Men.net (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=143) -- the Scott/Rachel scene is at the end of X-Men/Alpha Flight #2.

This mini is definitely worth picking up, not least of all because it features truly gorgeous art by my all-time favorite X-penciller, Paul Smith. And storywise, besides the Scott/Rachel scene in #2, there's some really well-written Rogue/Northstar stuff in #1 -- it's always made me wish we could see the two of them together again.

This mini was reissued in 1998 as X-Men/Alpha Flight: The Gift (albeit with a truly appalling new cover) -- you ought to be able to find it in a decent comic shop's back issue bins for not much money. I bought one a couple of years ago for about $3.50 or something.

[Dizzy D]

Check out the very detailed issue summaries at Uncanny X-Men.net (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=143) -- the Scott/Rachel scene is at the end of X-Men/Alpha Flight #2.

This mini is definitely worth picking up, not least of all because it features truly gorgeous art by my all-time favorite X-penciller, Paul Smith. And storywise, besides the Scott/Rachel scene in #2, there's some really well-written Rogue/Northstar stuff in #1 -- it's always made me wish we could see the two of them together again.

This mini was reissued in 1998 as X-Men/Alpha Flight: The Gift (albeit with a truly appalling new cover) -- you ought to be able to find it in a decent comic shop's back issue bins for not much money. I bought one a couple of years ago for about $3.50 or something.

Also some real good Madelyne stuff in there.

Point of warning for people wanting to buy this series/TPB: there is another X-men/Alpha Flight crossover, so take a look before you buy it.

[DDM]

Oh..

I remember that now..

I really wasn't a collector then..
I read 'em, and tossed 'em..

I stand corrected..

That did happen, I just couldn't remember the "follow-up" by CC.

I did remember fighting Nimrod..Then Mauraders..

Still, I didn't remeber them trying that hard, but comic-time is way different.


In Uncanny X-Men #210, Storm, Wolverine, & Rogue looked for Rachel in vain; whereas, Kitty & Colossus found Nightcrawler with the help of Magik. The Marauders appeared in shadow in this issue. And the Hellfire Club asked Magneto to become their White King...

[sephirothskiller]

Rachel actually comments in (The newest wolverine? Agent of shield part 6 I think.) that she feels ashamed that she froze and let wolverine kill Jean Paul when she easily could have blasted him to the moon.

That's my favourite comment on Wolverine's golden boyness.

[xakko]

gosh, it's been sooo long since I read that. All I remember is that, due to Loki's manipulations, Cyke had full control of his eye beams, but in the end he lost them. He was thinking something to the effect that he wanted to cry, but due to his powers, he couldn't. Ray read his thoughts and comforted him...

AHHH...anybody else got a better summary?
But in Uncanny #201, while in mindspeak with Kitty, Rachel still believes Scott doesn't know, saying that she will tell him soon.

Maybe Wolvie helping to save her life in "True Friends" helped to erase some of her animosity toward the old man? I think that she also knows how hard it was for him to stab her, that he was trying to be the "hero" and prevent her from becoming a "villain". It isn't hard to see her taking a peek and seeing that, really, Logan was trying to get Scott and Jean to work out their issues.

[Rachel Grey]

I agree. Besides at this point she's more upset about Scott & Emma kissing over Jean's grave.

BTW dose she (or indeed anyone else) actually know that Jean "pushed" them together?

[RED KING]

When I first saw this thread, I thought it was going to be about how Logan's always chasing after Jean.
Sure, Scott "fidelity (lol)" Summers was having a cyber... er.. I mean psychic affare with Emma, and Rachel HATES Emma for it. But Logan gets to make out with her mom all he wants?

[Rachel Grey]

Haha! :D

I guess Logan is Just That Pimping. :p

[DDM]

But in Uncanny #201, while in mindspeak with Kitty, Rachel still believes Scott doesn't know, saying that she will tell him soon.

Maybe Wolvie helping to save her life in "True Friends" helped to erase some of her animosity toward the old man? I think that she also knows how hard it was for him to stab her, that he was trying to be the "hero" and prevent her from becoming a "villain". It isn't hard to see her taking a peek and seeing that, really, Logan was trying to get Scott and Jean to work out their issues.

Rachel Summers never officially told Scott she is his future alternate daughter of Phoenix; however, previously, in Uncanny X-Men Annual #9, Rachel Summers debuted her costume & name, Phoenix, before they went to Asgard to the other X-Men. Rachel had just tapped into her powers as Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #199, but her powers were not fully catalized until she reformed the Shi'ar Holempathic matrix crystal in Uncanny X-Men #201 (after the X-Men returned from Asgard & to the mansion).

With Rachel's uncanny resemblence to Jean Grey, her last name Summers, & her insistence to be called Phoenix should leave Scott enough clues about Rachel's origins.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Yes, there was some back-and-forthing on whether Scott knew Rachel's identity around that time. As the folks at UncannyXMen.net write in their summary for X-Men/Alpha Flight #2:

...while the ending makes it appear that Cyclops guessed Rachel’s identity, apparently Claremont and the editors quickly changed their minds on the subject, as later issues made it clear that Cyclops was utterly clueless about his link to Rachel.

I guess the editors decided that having Scott surmise Rachel's identity and then hint around about it in the X/Alpha mini wasted an opportunity for Scott and Jean to be shocked and horrified about it later on, so they sort of swept it under the rug for a while. It's a shame, because that scene in X/Alpha #2 is really beautifully written, but it doesn't make sense if you read it assuming that Scott has no clue Rachel is his daughter.

There's some somewhat sloppy continuity around that time anyway ... in Uncanny #206, Rachel freaks out in Jessica Drew's kitchen when Rogue suggests the X-Men go visit Scott and Madelyne in Alaska: "No! I can't -- it's too soon -- I can't face Scott yet -- I'm not ready to meet my father!" Which is silly since we'd previously seen Scott and Rachel together at least 5 times, including the X/Alpha mini, the X-annual in Asgard, and just 5 isssues earlier in #201.

[DDM]

Yes, there was some back-and-forthing on whether Scott knew Rachel's identity around that time. As the folks at UncannyXMen.net write in their summary for X-Men/Alpha Flight #2:

...while the ending makes it appear that Cyclops guessed Rachel’s identity, apparently Claremont and the editors quickly changed their minds on the subject, as later issues made it clear that Cyclops was utterly clueless about his link to Rachel.

I guess the editors decided that having Scott surmise Rachel's identity and then hint around about it in the X/Alpha mini wasted an opportunity for Scott and Jean to be shocked and horrified about it later on, so they sort of swept it under the rug for a while. It's a shame, because that scene in X/Alpha #2 is really beautifully written, but it doesn't make sense if you read it assuming that Scott has no clue Rachel is his daughter.

There's some somewhat sloppy continuity around that time anyway ... in Uncanny #206, Rachel freaks out in Jessica Drew's kitchen when Rogue suggests the X-Men go visit Scott and Madelyne in Alaska: "No! I can't -- it's too soon -- I can't face Scott yet -- I'm not ready to meet my father!" Which is silly since we'd previously seen Scott and Rachel together at least 5 times, including the X/Alpha mini, the X-annual in Asgard, and just 5 isssues earlier in #201.


Jean Grey had just been resurrected a few months earlier for X-Factor which would make the editors change their minds about Rachel & Scott...

[Rick Summers]

I'm sure Ray will never forget that Logan gutted her. It will always be in the back of her mind. But ultimately she knows that he was right to not let her kill Selene. It's not what a "hero" does.

[Anna]

Rachel understands the Golden Rule: When a young/new/gen X-Man gets maimed by a "senior" X-Man the correct response is "Thank you Sir/Ma'am, may I have another?" She needs to come back and explain it to the current crop of New/young X-Men.

[AcesX1X]

Rachel understands the Golden Rule: When a young/new/gen X-Man gets maimed by a "senior" X-Man the correct response is "Thank you Sir/Ma'am, may I have another?" She needs to come back and explain it to the current crop of New/young X-Men.

anna, you post so beautifully. thank you for this.

[Swashbuckler]

I think Wolverine should gut her again, just she remembers the lesson he taught her.

[darknessatnoon]

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/heiffer1.jpg

[Askani's Flame]

Except they were all "father and daughter" like when they were dealing with The Fury in the most recent award-winning Claremont run on Uncanny. So they have made up, but I don't think she and Jubilee have.

[ClanAskani]

I can't see Rachel and Jubilee getting along, no matter what has transpired between them.

Rachel understands why Logan did what he did. She doesn't have to be happy about it, but I think she understands it.

[DungeonmasterJim]

Wolverine's had so many apparances and has been written by so many writers now that there are probably multiple stories in which he has killed to prevent more killings. I always felt that his speech in the comic posted by Darkness was very hypocritical.

And I would have loved to see Rachel kick Jubilee's ass. I always thought that Claremont's Jubilee was such a chump character. I didn't follow Jubilee after that so maybe she became a more interesting character over being Wolverine's tag along partner and Kitty wannabe.

DM Jim

[Uncle Nobs]

Oh phooey!!

I haven't ever read this or heard about it!!!

Tell me more! What happens in this scene?
You haven't read the Asgardian Wars? For reals?

Your membership in The Awesome Dude(tte)s Club is in serious jeopardy.