Superman's Weakness Against Magic

[Emerald Ghost]

When did this get written into Superman?

When has it been shown to be true? (besides Kingdom Come, I know of that one, where he is cut by WW's sword, and then later fights Shazam)

Just out of curiosity, I am wondering how much of an impact this makes on the stories, or if it's ignored usually?

[Sean Whitmore]

When did this get written into Superman?

When has it been shown to be true? (besides Kingdom Come, I know of that one, where he is cut by WW's sword, and then later fights Shazam)

Just out of curiosity, I am wondering how much of an impact this makes on the stories, or if it's ignored usually?


It's actually used all the time. Whenever Supes goes up against a foe who actively uses magic, or at least has magical origins, it will usually get a mention in his thought balloons. It's come up during battles with Etrigan, Blaze, Satanus, Mr. Z, Felix Faust, etc.

I can't say exactly when it was revealed, but we're talking WAAAAAY back, even in the Silver Age days.

And it's important to note that it isn't exactly a weakness, in the same way that Kryptonite or red sun rays are. Magic doesn't affect Supes more than it does everyone else, it's just that he has no more immunity to it than anyone else.


SEAN

[Devon C.]

It's actually used all the time. Whenever Supes goes up against a foe who actively uses magic, or at least has magical origins, it will usually get a mention in his thought balloons. It's come up during battles with Etrigan, Blaze, Satanus, Mr. Z, Felix Faust, etc.

I can't say exactly when it was revealed, but we're talking WAAAAAY back, even in the Silver Age days.

And it's important to note that it isn't exactly a weakness, in the same way that Kryptonite or red sun rays are. Magic doesn't affect Supes more than it does everyone else, it's just that he has no more immunity to it than anyone else.


SEAN
Thanks. Would've said the exact same thing.

[Rik Levins]

As an old-time reader, I can recall seeing it specifically mentioned in a lettercolumn back around 1960, give or take. I also remember a scene shortly thereafter, in which Superman gets in Mr. Mxyzptlk's face, and the 5D imp grabs his nose, stretches it like rubber about three feet, and then lets it snap back (with sufficient force to knock Supes on his butt).
As a kid reading that, I thought, "Oh, yeah. They did say he's not invulnerable to magic." Mxy also took away his powers on several occasions, or transformed him in other ways.

In the issue where the Supergirl prototype, Super-Girl, was introduced (created by a magical totem), some crooks stole the totem and used to to take away his powers.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/116/400/116_4_123.jpg

But it goes back even furthur than that. There was a story in the very early forties in which Luthor gets hold of a magical gem called the Powerstone, and also uses it to make Supes powerless.

Sean is correct in saying that Superman is not any MORE vulnerable to magic than anyone else (at least, anyone who doesn't have some specific magical protection).

Kurt Busiek wrote about this in detail on a thread somewhere in the Rumbles forum. I think it was the one that started out about Fernus in the Marvel universe, and somehow drifted to Superman vs Thor.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=42938&page=1&pp=15

Busiek joins in around page 12.

[Viking Bastard]

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/116/400/116_4_123.jpg
"Now tell me your secret identity and I'll tell you mine!"

Hyuk hyuk hyuk.

[Forsaken_One]

And it's important to note that it isn't exactly a weakness, in the same way that Kryptonite or red sun rays are. Magic doesn't affect Supes more than it does everyone else, it's just that he has no more immunity to it than anyone else.
As always, however, this seems to be up to the writer and even then not all the time. For example, Superman's hit by Captain Marvel's lightning (happens more often than you'd think). This is magical lightning, but Superman doesn't react as any of us would to lightning hitting us, i.e. dying or being seriously injured. Instead he generally just shrugs it off like it stung a bit. So it doesn't just slip by his powers.

[Sean Whitmore]

As always, however, this seems to be up to the writer and even then not all the time. For example, Superman's hit by Captain Marvel's lightning (happens more often than you'd think). This is magical lightning, but Superman doesn't react as any of us would to lightning hitting us, i.e. dying or being seriously injured. Instead he generally just shrugs it off like it stung a bit. So it doesn't just slip by his powers.


Very good point. I suppose a case could be made that the lightning is benign magic, so maybe it would have the same affect hitting anyone who wasn't a Marvel. (Has it ever hit anyone who wasn't Superman or a Marvel?)


SEAN

[lonewolf23k]

I'm with Kurt Busiek's opinion on the topic of Superman's vulnerability to magic:

Superman is not allergic to magic; it doesn't affect him like Kryptonite. He is simply vulnerable to it the way everyone else is. So a "turn into a bunny" spell would turn Superman into a bunny. It would also turn the Hulk or Gladiator into a bunny.

[Kurt Busiek]

Very good point. I suppose a case could be made that the lightning is benign magic, so maybe it would have the same affect hitting anyone who wasn't a Marvel. (Has it ever hit anyone who wasn't Superman or a Marvel?)

Yes. As I recall, when that happens, it gives them super-powers, since that's what the magic of the lightning is there to do.

Superman, it works differently on, for whatever reason.

kdb

[Sean Whitmore]

Yes. As I recall, when that happens, it gives them super-powers, since that's what the magic of the lightning is there to do.


Wow, I never knew that. So any schmoe hit by the lightning gets Marvel-like powers? I'm surprised we don't see it happen more often, like Sivana building a machine to deflect the lightning into him, or something.


SEAN

[Kurt Busiek]

Wow, I never knew that. So any schmoe hit by the lightning gets Marvel-like powers?


I don't know that it's always Marvel-like powers, but yeah, magic lightning hits human, human gets powers. The lightning is a bolt of power that empwers those it strikes.

I'm surprised we don't see it happen more often, like Sivana building a machine to deflect the lightning into him, or something.

I believe we've seen just that.

I also think Chain Lightning was empowered by the magic lightning.

kdb

[davids]

sorry, just dreaming. about magic, superman is as vunerable to magic as any one. His advantage over us is that when the bady is casting his spell superman is fast enough to get the babdy between words.

If a demons claws can carve up a human, he can carve up superman as well. [bedroom scene were wonder woman is tending Clarks wounds caused by the demons they have been fighting!] We caint punch the demons lights out supe can.

Now about that book, I am trying to complete my action and adventures of superman back to 1958 with out going broke! [the year i started reading and collecting comics.] Now about that book,

HOW MUCH?

[Pariah128]

Actually, I think he might have a better resistance to magic than normal people, here are a few magical feats:

In Superman #23, Superman endured without visible harm, a magical explosion that destroyed most of an island, but was unconscious after the blast.

Action Comics # 762: Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface all the way to the moon (239,000 miles), a distance that is about 10 times the diameter of the Earth. Superman was virtually unfazed. In this issue he also shrugged off magical demon-fire (which he did previously in Action #589), and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases.

[PatrickG]

Superman did get Captain Marvel's powers once when the lightning struck him.

Meanwhile, Batman got knocked out when he got struck.

It seems like the powers are inconsistant.

People complained that Billy's lightning bolt visible when he changed back from Captain Marvel in SUPERMAN/BATMAN but he obviously changes inside buildings and alleyways without being struck by lightning that should be visible just ten or twenty feet away.

[Forsaken_One]

People complain about everything.

And in the end, nothing is consistant. As far as I can tell there is no "bible" of DC powers, or if there is authors ignore it as often as not. Superman is hurt by magic at one point and somewhat resistant at another. Billy's lightning can be intercepted in one comic while in another it goes through a building. It gives powers or it doesn't or it knocks someone out. Batman is a genius, can't figure out what's going on to save his own life, is one of the best martial artists in the world, and can't outfight Black Mask.

As much as we fans tend to love to quibble about continuity and consistancy and who would beat who the fact is that it's all up to the writer, and they use whatever will give a good story. The best you can hope for is characterization to remain somewhat consistant. And hope is the denial of reality. ;)

[dancj]

Actually, I think he might have a better resistance to magic than normal people, here are a few magical feats:

In Superman #23, Superman endured without visible harm, a magical explosion that destroyed most of an island, but was unconscious after the blast.

I can't remember that issue so I don't know what the explosion was. If was a pure blast of magicciness then Supes whould have been hurt. If it was a conventional explosion caused by magical means then it wouldn't hurt him. I suspect it was somewhere between the two, in which case he could be hurt, but not as badly as everything else.


Action Comics # 762: Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface all the way to the moon (239,000 miles), a distance that is about 10 times the diameter of the Earth. Superman was virtually unfazed. In this issue he also shrugged off magical demon-fire (which he did previously in Action #589), and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases.

Etrigan may get his strength through magical means, but a punch from Etrigan is just normal force and not a spell so Supes would be invulnerable to it. If Supes wasn't hurt by Etrigan's fire then I suspect that was normal fire created by magical (or not) means and therefore he wouldn't be vulnerable to that either.

[Rik Levins]

Wow, I never knew that. So any schmoe hit by the lightning gets Marvel-like powers? I'm surprised we don't see it happen more often, like Sivana building a machine to deflect the lightning into him, or something.


SEAN

That's EXACTLY what happened in an old teamup story from the early 80's. Sivana became "Captain Sivana", with a costume like Capt. Marvel's (only green instead of red.) He fought Superman and it was pretty even until he tricked Supes into entering a freight car full of Kryptonite, and then proceeded to beat the snot out of him with Kryptonite brass knuckles.
Don't remember the exact date, but I do recall the beautiful Gil Kane artwork in that story.

[Kurt Busiek]

That's EXACTLY what happened in an old teamup story from the early 80's. Sivana became "Captain Sivana", with a costume like Capt. Marvel's (only green instead of red.) He fought Superman and it was pretty even until he tricked Supes into entering a freight car full of Kryptonite, and then proceeded to beat the snot out of him with Kryptonite brass knuckles.
Don't remember the exact date, but I do recall the beautiful Gil Kane artwork in that story.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2627/400/2627_4_3.jpg

[Shem the Penman]

That's EXACTLY what happened in an old teamup story from the early 80's. Sivana became "Captain Sivana", with a costume like Capt. Marvel's (only green instead of red.) He fought Superman and it was pretty even until he tricked Supes into entering a freight car full of Kryptonite, and then proceeded to beat the snot out of him with Kryptonite brass knuckles.
Don't remember the exact date, but I do recall the beautiful Gil Kane artwork in that story.

But doesn't this run counter to Captain Marvel's occasionally using the lightning as a weapon -- in Kingdom Come and in the recent "Lightning Strikes Twice" arc in the Superbooks, frinstance? There's not much point in zapping an enemy with the bolt if they're going to get powered up. (The mind reels at the thought of Eclipso with Cap's powers added on...)

[Rik Levins]

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2627/400/2627_4_3.jpg

THAT'S the one! Thanks, Mr. B. An amusing little bit was that Sivana started out calling himself "Captain Sivana", and then, as he successfully pulled off one evil victory after another (defeating the powerless Captain Marvel*, beating the elderly Earth-Two Superman, finally conquering the Earth-One Supes), he kept promoting himself, becoming Colonel, Major, and finally General Sivana.

But doesn't this run counter to Captain Marvel's occasionally using the lightning as a weapon -- in Kingdom Come and in the recent "Lightning Strikes Twice" arc in the Superbooks, frinstance? There's not much point in zapping an enemy with the bolt if they're going to get powered up. (The mind reels at the thought of Eclipso with Cap's powers added on...)

Yep, it does. Chalk it up to different writers having different interpretations of how Marvel's powers work. I recall seeing an old CM comic from the forties in which Cap was changed back to Billy Batson by the electrical discharge from a giant electric eel. (Which sucked for him, since he couldn't say "Shazam" underwater...)
I'd love to see Kurt Busiek writing some Captain Marvel stories.

(*Sivana's machine split the magic lightning into two forks, channelling all the powers into himself. The remaining part that hit Billy did change him into CM but didn't give him any powers; in fact it contained all the "bad" qualities of the gods, such as Hercules' poor judgement, or Zeus' arrogance.)

[GUTB]

Superman isn't vulnerable to magic, he just doesn't have any special resistence to magical effects. For instance, magically creating a hammer and hitting him with it would produce no result. A normal hammer enchanted to deal fire damage also does nothing as Superman is impervious to flame. But a sword that is magically able to cut through anything will cut him. A magical flame that can burn anything will burn him. A spell that removes his vital organs will remove his vital organs. A spell that turns his blood into icewater may be uncomfortable but wouldn't be deadly (probably!)