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bartl
08-31-2005, 06:03 AM
The escalating super-hero merry-go-round that Grant described in this week's column was actually one ofhte problems a lot of readers found with the early Marvel (yes, not everybody loved everything about the early Marvel). DC, especially with heroes like Superman, often took a different route (no, not every Superman story used Kryptonite or magic).

As was either mentioned by name or description in the comic writing series, the key to a good story is dramatic conflict. Essentially, the protagonist needs to have vital goals which, due to the events in the story, look like they cannot all be achieved; more importantly, achieving one means giving another.

Now, there are a couple of ways of resolving dramatic conflict. The first, less realistic but more common in American comics, is to find some means of achieving all the goals in spite of the difficulties. In a series, it is permissable for the protagonist to occasionally fail, but the consequences should be dire, and should assert themselves through the series (for example, when John Byrne presented Superman with an apparently unresolvable conflict between protecting the Earth and not killing, Superman chose to kill, but it had a lasting detrimental effect on Superman, even lasting slightly beyond John Byrne's run before it was forgotten). More commonly, Superman's human attachments were taken advantage of.

By the 1960's, for various reasons, DC's heroes (especially those edited by Julius Schwartz) thought their way through problems. Marvel comics were more action oriented. The typical superhero response was, "Keep hitting and hope that something breaks." (and yes, the various spellings of super-hero are on purpose. So there!). The problem was that Marvel had sufficient other things going for it that attracted a new audience, while the action attracted those who preferred to just look at the pictures, and didn't want to read those boring words. In other words, Marvel achieved a balance that DC was lacking. Not to mention that Stan Lee's adman skills came through, and he REALLY knew how to sell a comic, and to keep people buying.

But, as often happens with marketing, the creators confused the surface physical techniques with the underlying principles (this went as far as some companies concluding that the secret of Marvel's success was bad art and writing. Several people here can verify this!). This tendency was alluded to by Grant in today's column when discussing Archie Goodwin, where they may try some of his methods, but without applying the underlying principles (see my post on Systems Analysis), the methods are applying a solution without considering the problem. (I was thinking of inserting a bad Nero Wolfe pun, but compromised on just this parenthetical remark).

In other words, the merry-go-round CAN be stopped. But it requires writers who know their craft, editors who will encourage the writers to use it, and buyers who will pay for it.

fumetti
08-31-2005, 10:03 AM
I noticed something about Marvel's Silver Age when I sat down and read all those Essentials in order working my way forward generally in time. (I read a year or so of one then another, pausing to make sure I didn't read ahead of a crossover so I'd have the proper mindset of each character when the crossover happened.) Y'know what I found...?

Crossovers were rare. For all the talk about Stan Lee's coherent universe, he kept those characters separated for the most part. He even went so far as to replace those original Avengers (except Cap) who had their own title. Stan Lee built a universe that became very different after he stopped writing it. I'd say Roy Thomas built Marvel's coherent, intermingled universe moreso than Stan Lee.

What Stan did that I think was most important of all was the soap opera approach. If you skipped an issue of a Marvel comic, you probably missed something you wished you didn't. But with DC, you could miss an issue (or three) and not worry about picking up the next one. Stan really made his comics "must haves."

(This didn't actually apply for each issue of each series, but is generally true for most of the books from around 1964-onward. FF, Cap, Thor, Avengers, etc. got a rhythm around then.)

*******

As for DC's current mega-crossover, I have nothing but compliments. They finally figured out a workable approach for these things. Mainly, build it around a BIG ISSUE, not a big event.

I'm reading most all the crossovers and I'm totally riveted. I'm picking up issues from titles I'd never read otherwise and enjoying them. I'm fascinated by the moral quandry facing these heroes. And it's an argument that is transportable throughout the DCU--it's not just tied to those characters physically at any one scene (like, say, Marvel's Secret Wars).

This probably won't work twice, but it's a lot of fun for now.

dlairman
08-31-2005, 10:49 AM
From what I can see, the current DC mega crossover is not folowing the formula from the column...

The nature of the superhero story, certainly over the last 30 years, has been basically this: hero(es) face(s) villain(s). In order to be a credible threat, villain(s) has to in some way be significantly superior to hero(es). In order to successfully combat villain(s), hero(es) must "rise to the occasion," ie, in come way become more powerful, in order to equalize or surpass the threat. Hero(es) at the end of the story end up more powerful than at the beginning.

In the basic creative writing class, students learn that stories must contain some sort of struggle... man against man, man against nature, or man agianst himself. The above description of the "superhero formula" is the man against man conflict. My take on it is that, while Infinite Crisis seems to be hung on a number of hooks, the big one seems to be more of the man against himself variety.

Let me 'splain....

As we have seen in OMAC, Bats' paranoia has led him to create Brother I (no, not the word processor!). Wonder Woman's directness has led her to kill someone without remorse. And from the convention circuit, we know something is coming with Superman. DC has essentially stated they are going to deconstruct their "Trinity".

The crisis seems to hinge on the personal failings and traits of the characters. Another item of note: Jean Loring is involved in an externalized struggle with her inner darkness.

Yes, there are bad guys, but they are not so much dangerous in and of themselves, as they are simply taking advantage of the heroes vulnerabilities and complicating a situation already complex.

And (I'm guessing), no, each hero's (and villain's) struggle with their selves are not going to be the final word on what is going on in the story, there is more to it than that. Rather than amping up the power levels to win, this looks to be one the heroes are going to have to think their way out of...

But then again, issue one has yet to ship...

sehthan
08-31-2005, 10:54 AM
I think one of the major problems with the big event mentality is that once the companies see success with one big event, they start throwing them out one after the other. And the trend lately has been to actually piggyback big events, spinning the new one right out of the last one. The overhyped Avengers Dissassembled wasn't even over when Marvel starting talking about how it set up next year's big event. I think my eyes literally rolled back in my head when I heard that. These events might actually work better for everyone involved, and actually seem like big events, if the companies would only attempt them every few years. Hell, if you count both Seven Soldiers and Infinite Crisis, DC's got two going simultaneously right now!

Bob Violence
09-03-2005, 08:59 PM
...
Now, there are a couple of ways of resolving dramatic conflict. The first, less realistic but more common in American comics, is to find some means of achieving all the goals in spite of the difficulties. In a series, it is permissable for the protagonist to occasionally fail, but the consequences should be dire, and should assert themselves through the series (for example, when John Byrne presented Superman with an apparently unresolvable conflict between protecting the Earth and not killing, Superman chose to kill, but it had a lasting detrimental effect on Superman, even lasting slightly beyond John Byrne's run before it was forgotten). More commonly, Superman's human attachments were taken advantage of.

By the 1960's, for various reasons, DC's heroes (especially those edited by Julius Schwartz) thought their way through problems. Marvel comics were more action oriented. The typical superhero response was, "Keep hitting and hope that something breaks." (and yes, the various spellings of super-hero are on purpose. So there!). The problem was that Marvel had sufficient other things going for it that attracted a new audience, while the action attracted those who preferred to just look at the pictures, and didn't want to read those boring words. In other words, Marvel achieved a balance that DC was lacking. Not to mention that Stan Lee's adman skills came through, and he REALLY knew how to sell a comic, and to keep people buying.
...

In other words, the merry-go-round CAN be stopped. But it requires writers who know their craft, editors who will encourage the writers to use it, and buyers who will pay for it.
The problem DC is having stems from their adaptation of the Marvel soap opera style. (No, not the "Bad writing and art" ;) ) DC characters used to be dull guys with cool powers, who solved fun and interesting problems. Marvel comics were more likely to be based on more everyman-type of characters and the main payoff to the stories would be a major development in the life of the character (Aunt May DIES!, Prof. X WALKS!, Aunt May MARRIES DOC OCK!!) When you start building up the 'lives' of fictional characters, over the course of time any number of mindboggling contradictions will crop up.
The DC way was more like a sit-com, with Flash having to come up with fun new ways to beat a guy whose gun shoots really cold stuff, and not have much carryover at all from the previous issues.
When DC went soap opera, it now had to make characters who were born to be dull into interesting characters who readers would care about. Thus, Barry and Hal were out and Wally and Kyle were in, and the age of the annual Crisis was begun.
Major Events screw things up because they hijack the mojo that keeps a regular series going and replace it with inorganic mojo-substitute. They create character changes dictated from the corporate level, from the people who see them as marketing properties. I can see the meeting: "Superman becomes a .. (spins wheel) MIME! Batman learns the (spins wheel) Macarena! Wonder Woman gets a (spins wheel) Wonder Dog! The Justice League become (spins wheel) giant robots!
Editors you have your orders, go forth and make this years event work!"