Opinions on Avengers Forever?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I know next to nothing about Avengers history aside from the basics I got from reading the first couple issues by Lee & Kirby. But, I love Carlos Pacheco's stuff and Kurt Busiek & Roger Stern definitely know their stuff when it comes to old school superhero stuff, so I borrowed all 12 issues from my buddy, who warned me I might not like it because its "an Avengers geek-out" story.

Well, I've only read up to issue 8, but I gotta say, it holds up remarkably well even for a reader like myself who doesn't know squat about the Avengers. If anything, its gotten me very interested in tracking down some more Avengers stuff.

Any stories in particular you hard-core Avengers fans would recommend for a wet-behind-the-ears reader like myself?

[Shellhead]

Ultron Unleashed was probably the all-time greatest Avengers story. That took place during the Busiek/Perez run, several issues around #20 approximately. Farther back, the Avengers-Defenders War of the mid-70s (also available in color in tpb, or in black & white in Essential Defenders) was the first great crossover in comics. Roy Thomas and Neal Adams did a great run with the Kree-Skrull War a little farther back. But the overall best era in Avengers history was in the late 70's/early 80's, starting around issue #160 and going to issue #201. David Michelinie and Jim Shooter were writing it back then, and the artists included great work by George Perez and John Byrne. Busiek and Perez did a great job, but only their Ultron story clearly surpassed that 160-201 run.

[Steve]

Find the Avengers: Under Seige trade. That's when the Masters of Evil took over Avengers Mansion. Stern and the late John Buscema were at the top of their game.

Oh, and make sure it's not glossy stock. I find that Marvel trades these days use glossy stock which hampers the old works done before the era of computer coloring, which was around early 90's or when Image Comics formed. The colors are too bright for my taste. Case in point, the McFarlane Amazing Spider-Man Visionaries. Ugh.

[mattbib]

If anything, its gotten me very interested in tracking down some more Avengers stuff.Agreed, after reading Avengers Forever I tracked down the issues (or reprints of) listed in the appendix. It was a fun process that totally enhanced the maxi-series.

[Steve]

Oh, and here's another.

Avengers Annual 10, the intro of Rogue, and how she takes down almost the whole Avengers' roster. Plus, Avengers vs. Brotherhood of Evil Mutants! And even if you don't think much of the storyline, you get to enjoy that kickass Michael Golden art. A real treat.

[The Shadow]

Agreed, after reading Avengers Forever I tracked down the issues (or reprints of) listed in the appendix. It was a fun process that totally enhanced the maxi-series.
After I read it I went and re-read the originals I had and also tracked down the remaining ones I needed.

[pureclint]

Find the Avengers: Under Seige trade. That's when the Masters of Evil took over Avengers Mansion. Stern and the late John Buscema were at the top of their game.


Ditto, as long as you have a idea of who the Heroes are this is a GREAT trade.

I also second Ultron tale, Busiek and Perez's finest work on the Avengers (this tale is a bit more continuity heavy but it is well explained and the action is very emotional).


Red Zone by Geoff Johns is good as is the Korvac Saga for some old school space heroics.


Edit:

Here are the links:

Under Siege (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785107029/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-5492582-4736058?v=glance)

Ultron (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785107746/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-5492582-4736058?v=glance)

Red Zone (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785110992/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-5492582-4736058?v=glance)

The only link Amazon has for the Korvac book is a old one, even though there is a newer trade out.

[The Shadow]

Find the Avengers: Under Seige trade. That's when the Masters of Evil took over Avengers Mansion. Stern and the late John Buscema were at the top of their game.
The issues are also available in ebay for less than the trade.

[Steve]

The issues are also available in ebay for less than the trade.
Yep, you can go that route too.

Plus, now that Mile High Comics is having a another 30% off sale on back issues, that could come in handy as well.

[The Shadow]

Plus, now that Mile High Comics is having a another 30% off sale on back issues, that could come in handy as well.
Thanks for the tip!!!!

[Kirk G]

I know next to nothing about Avengers history aside from the basics I got from reading the first couple issues by Lee & Kirby. But, I love Carlos Pacheco's stuff and Kurt Busiek & Roger Stern definitely know their stuff when it comes to old school superhero stuff, so I borrowed all 12 issues from my buddy, who warned me I might not like it because its "an Avengers geek-out" story.

Well, I've only read up to issue 8, but I gotta say, it holds up remarkably well even for a reader like myself who doesn't know squat about the Avengers. If anything, its gotten me very interested in tracking down some more Avengers stuff.

Any stories in particular you hard-core Avengers fans would recommend for a wet-behind-the-ears reader like myself?

I'm surprised that a non-Avengers longterm fan could follow it. I had a hard time following it, and I've been reading since, say, issue #22 or so... original volume one, of course.

Now, as to which stories are best??? Boy, I'd say they've given you good guidance, but I'd throw in the origin/arrival of the Vision, circa issues 56-60, maybe the first Chessmaster/Contest of Champions/Squadron Supreme trilogy in about 71, and of course, the Kree Skrull war running about 88-97. I don't care for Celestial Madonna nor the Defenders crossover... but the Korvac Saga is very important and the Yesterday Quest under Byrne is very good.
I have to agree that the Avengers Annual #10 is important. I liked unlimited Vision by Roger Stern alot also... as it leads into West Coast Avengers. But saying which ones are best is alot like asking which years of growing up were the best... different writers, different artists, different visions...and different hindsights with age and maturity.

I'd have to conclude that the best stories are the ones where the creator had a clear continuing vision of a multipart saga to tell... more so that one-shot issues.

That would be a good question to ask though..."What is your favorite single issue story in the Avengers history?"

[thik_3rd]

Any stories in particular you hard-core Avengers fans would recommend for a wet-behind-the-ears reader like myself?
my favorite story is the fall and rise of hank pym from 213-231 or so.
avengers forver was dope, but as a whole i didn't think busiek's run was that great.

[Shellhead]

my favorite story is the fall and rise of hank pym from 213-231 or so.
avengers forver was dope, but as a whole i didn't think busiek's run was that great.

Not enough Pym-slapping? ;)

[Babylon23]

I have to agree with every suggestion made so far, especially Under Seige (all-time favourite Avengers story) and Kree-Skrull.

There's also 4 Essentials books out, covering most of the 60's Avengers stories. These include some seminal stuff, including the first appearance of the Vision (another personal favourite).

[The Shadow]

the Kree Skrull war running about 88-97.
Neal Adams art too!

[Kevinroc]

The entire Busiek run on Avengers. That should go without saying. Especially Ultron Unleashed and The Kang Dynasty. (The Kang Dynasty tpb is pretty big but definitely worth it. I think most fans got bored of it in individual issues but as a huge tpb, it reads very well.)

Geoff Johns had a decent run on the title. World Trust might seem a little goofy but I found it to be pretty fun. Red Zone is another good story from his run (although it was decompressed and is about an issue or two longer than it needed to be).

Don't forget to look back at some of those Roger Stern stories. Others have done a good job with them.

Avengers Standoff is basically how Marvel really moved Thor away from The Avengers. It got collected in one of the Thor tpbs but it is very good. The crossover was written by Dan Jurgens (Thor), Mike Grell (Iron Man) and Geoff Johns (Avengers). All three issues were drawn by Alan Davis, so it looks very pretty. It takes place during the era where Odin had died and Thor was the Lord of Asgard.

Edit: Not specifically an Avengers story, but read the original Sentry story if you haven't. Marvel's collected it in an easy to find TPB. The Avengers play a decent role but it's mostly about The Sentry and is very, very good. And is pretty important to understand the character's role in The New Avengers.

[streator]

i have never read an avengers issue besides the x-men crossover ones around 1993 or 1994. the bit where exodus takes luna.
i know about the avengers in general, and i would say a reasonable amount of their history.
i have heard good things about avengers:forever since it came out.
should i look into it, or more importantly, is it worthwhile for me to having not read all of these important stories?

[Babylon23]

i have never read an avengers issue besides the x-men crossover ones around 1993 or 1994. the bit where exodus takes luna.
i know about the avengers in general, and i would say a reasonable amount of their history.
i have heard good things about avengers:forever since it came out.
should i look into it, or more importantly, is it worthwhile for me to having not read all of these important stories?

I'd definitely say its worth reading, but then, I'm a huge Avengers fan. Unfortunately, this means I have no idea if it would make sense to a non-Avengers fan.
Also, most of the major Avengers stories are available in trade if you're interested in reading them once you've finished Forever. As I mentioned above, there's also the Essentials, which are good and cheap.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Thanks for the tips, guys.

I'll probably finish Avengers Forever tonight, then I was thinking of picking up Earth's Mightiest Heroes next since its about their early years and I love Scott Kollins' stuff, even though Joe Casey is a gamble sometimes. Sound like a wise move?

[pureclint]

EMH is a mixed bag.

Some loved it some didn't. It is low on action and changes a good bit about the characters in the early days and has some politicizing by Casey. And it really does not tell anything new, it just shows some of the beurocratic troubels the team had to jump through when they were forming.

Iron Man and Thor are handled well but everyone else is not in my view. I would stick with the classics, or get Buiseks Morgan Le fey start to the Volume 3 way before that book.

[thik_3rd]

emh was one of the best comics of the past few years. i recommend it. plus you can get all 8 issues on ebay for less than $10 (as opposed to $28 i paid off the rack.)

[Kevinroc]

Thanks for the tips, guys.

I'll probably finish Avengers Forever tonight, then I was thinking of picking up Earth's Mightiest Heroes next since its about their early years and I love Scott Kollins' stuff, even though Joe Casey is a gamble sometimes. Sound like a wise move?

I enjoyed it. EMH is meant to "plug in the holes" between the early issues of Avengers, so you might want to read the first few issues. It takes place just after the team's founding to when Hawkeye, Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch joined.

There are some portions of the story that might seem a little dull. We have a lot of scenes with Tony Stark trying to get The Avengers top level government clearance. Captain America struggling with the modern world. How Hawkeye got his shot at redemption.

[Kirk G]

I have to agree with every suggestion made so far, especially Under Seige (all-time favourite Avengers story) and Kree-Skrull.

There's also 4 Essentials books out, covering most of the 60's Avengers stories. These include some seminal stuff, including the first appearance of the Vision (another personal favourite).
I'll second that suggestion for the Essentials. Most are clear reprints in b&w, with only a few not the best images.

[Babylon23]

Thanks for the tips, guys.

I'll probably finish Avengers Forever tonight, then I was thinking of picking up Earth's Mightiest Heroes next since its about their early years and I love Scott Kollins' stuff, even though Joe Casey is a gamble sometimes. Sound like a wise move?

I enjoyed EMH for the most part. However, Kevinroc is right in saying that it's a "plug in the holes" story. If you like it, the original issues covered by EMH are all contained in Essential Avengers vol. 1

[The Shadow]

I HATED EMH... all it was ended up being was some filler issues. It took place BETWEEN the issues Stan and Jack did... and Stan and Jack did it better.

The one redeeming factor (for me anyway) was the introspection of Captain America. The original issues didn't deal much with him and how he adjusted and what he was thinking... EMH did that well.

[thik_3rd]

I HATED EMH... all it was ended up being was some filler issues. It took place BETWEEN the issues Stan and Jack did... and Stan and Jack did it better.

The one redeeming factor (for me anyway) was the introspection of Captain America. The original issues didn't deal much with him and how he adjusted and what he was thinking... EMH did that well.
it was billed as filler issues between what stan and jack did, what did you think you were getting into?
and stan and jack didn't do it better, they didn't do it at all. they took care of the battles that took place for the first 16 issues, casey and kollins took care of the politics and interpersonal dynamics of the team coming together. big difference.
i don't know what naysayers were expecting with this. a retelling of the original stories? that would've been pointless, seeing as they were done well to begin with. new battles that happened in the early days that just weren't in the early issues? please, that was done before (avengers 1 1/2), they wouldn't neeed another 8 issues of that.

[Jolly Mon]

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Steve Englehart/"Celestial Madonna" period from about 120 through 135 (including most of the "Giant-Size" issues). This still ranks as one of my favorite Avengers sagas, right up there with the Kree-Skrull War. Kang, Mantis, Swordsman, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Rama-Tut, the original Human Torch, Immortus, all got to shine. Good stuff.

[Kurt Busiek]

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Steve Englehart/"Celestial Madonna" period from about 120 through 135 (including most of the "Giant-Size" issues). This still ranks as one of my favorite Avengers sagas, right up there with the Kree-Skrull War. Kang, Mantis, Swordsman, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Rama-Tut, the original Human Torch, Immortus, all got to shine. Good stuff.

Plus, it contains GIANT-SIZE AVENGERS #2, the single best issue of AVENGERS ever.

kdb

[kcekada]

I'd love to see a spin-off of the future Avengers Forever team. The one with Jocasta and Thundra. Really, I'd just like to see someone use these two characters again.

I think it does help to be an Avengers fan to enjoy Avengers Forever. It's nicely illustrated and well-written, but it's very heavy on Avengers history.

[JustinPJ]

did anyone read the Operation: Galactic Storm crossover from the early 90s? if so, how does it rate compared to the Avengers' other cosmic adventure stories?

[streator]

well, i think i will pass on the mini then. it sounds like i'd need to read a lot of back issues, and to be honest, i was only really interested because of pacheco.

[Kirk G]

did anyone read the Operation: Galactic Storm crossover from the early 90s? if so, how does it rate compared to the Avengers' other cosmic adventure stories?
If read in order, there were something like "19 Parts" which flowed through virtually all Avengers related titles... "Quazar", "Wonder Man", Iron Man, Cap., West Coast Avengers, Avengers (no wait, was WCA still around then???)

Anyway, the point is that you could read them all and follow not only the main thrust of the storyline, but also follow what was going on in that characters' contribution. Example, if Quazar was heading up a squad to take out a Kree outpost, then rejoining the rest of the team that was on another objective in Iron Man, you could read either or skip them, and still be around for the big bang, which occurs in the later issues.

Now, I'm sure you could find some webpage or masterlist (probably in any one of the 19 issues) that would become your shopping list, but I picked and chose which I wanted, and followed only the main storyline... and I still can't recall much of substance except for who died, who argued pro and con of the big three to "off the Supreme Intellegence."

The final decision was supposed to be a watershed for the series, and split the Avengers, but I don't recall that it really lasted for very long. And most of the events of the war were retconed away or forgotten and reversed by subsequent writers.

It was an epic long story, but I didn't feel that it really had to be that long...

Comments, anyone? :confused:

[Babylon23]

Now, I'm sure you could find some webpage or masterlist (probably in any one of the 19 issues) that would become your shopping list, but I picked and chose which I wanted, and followed only the main storyline... and I still can't recall much of substance except for who died, who argued pro and con of the big three to "off the Supreme Intellegence."

The final decision was supposed to be a watershed for the series, and split the Avengers, but I don't recall that it really lasted for very long. And most of the events of the war were retconed away or forgotten and reversed by subsequent writers.

It was an epic long story, but I didn't feel that it really had to be that long...

Comments, anyone? :confused:

I'd tend to agree with you Kirk. It seemed like an attempt to recapture the glory days of Kree-Skrull, but without any of the substance that story had. It suffered badly from appearing during the crossover blitz of the 90's, when crossovers had to be as long and far-reaching as possible, to maximise sales.

Oh, I'd also agree with Jolly Mon and Kurt about Celestial Madonna. An excellent story, made even better by the major character developments made to Vision and the Scarlet Witch (my 2 favourite Avengers). Great stuff.

[Ogrebear]

Hullo

Was reading a review over here: review (http://popcultureshock.com/features.php?id=1097) which suggested the 12 part Avengers Forever is a good read so I thought I'd throw it out here and ask you lot what you thought of this arc? Classic or sucky?

Also is it worth getting the Trade or buying the issues seperatly?

Thanks!

[UniqueFrequency]

it was a good read with fantastic art!

just get the trade, i wouldn't advise hunting the individual issues down

[Will.S]

Yeah I would get the Avengers Legends 1 trade of Avengers Forever. It also includes cliff notes on the characters and other stuff that can easily confuse.

[Evil-Spidey]

love that mini, it's one of the best avengers storys of all time.

[Graham Vingoe]

Echoing the others- this is a fantastic story and well worth the money. I wish it had been the last time that Kang had been used, but that is a minor detail.

[riotgear]

One of the best Avengers stories in years. Especially since then. Busiek had a real feel for the classic Avengers storytype, and made it obvious that classic comicbook storytelling is still viable. He made some of the most confusing parts of the Avengers history obvious and understandable. I wish he was still writing the Avengers.

[Kirk G]

I agree the Avengers Forever trade is the way to go, but beware that the arc is very continuity heavy. You can get through it, but there's a good bit of history that gets covered by its very nature.... "The Untold History of the Marvel Universe" says it all.

[riotgear]

I agree the Avengers Forever trade is the way to go, but beware that the arc is very continuity heavy. You can get through it, but there's a good bit of history that gets covered by its very nature.... "The Untold History of the Marvel Universe" says it all.

Ah, but they referenced all the issues that they needed to at the end of the issues, something Marvel doesn't do anymore.

[Starkicker]

A classic Avengers story. Great stuff.

I think the issues had the thick card stock covers, because I remember thinking that they were very expensive at the time but the issues were too good to pass on. If it's in a trade it would be alot cheaper.

[jadegiant77]

Go for it! I brought the trade last year, and it knocked my socks off! Then I put 'em back on and kept reading! :) The coolest monent was when[mild spilers ahead:]


all the good Avengers from various timelines teamed up to beat the crap out of the evil Avengers(it'll make sense when you read it). It also kicked ass when the original origin of the Vision was restored(he is the rebuilt/remodeled Golden Age HumanTorch). I definitely reccomend(sp) this one!

[jam37wcc]

Great read buy it now and read the whole thing at once.

[StoneGold]

The only bad thing about the book, it helps seriously to have some decent knowledge of the Avengers before reading it. Not a book for novices. Yes, the book tries to explain everything, but unless you actually know some of the history, the impact isn't as hard.


That said, if you know this history, it's great.

[jam37wcc]

I really enjoyed it and didn't have much knowledge, other than general knowledge of the Avengers.

Before I bought it the extent of my Avengers reading was the Bloodties crossover, the Onslaught crossover, first couple of issues of Heroes Reborn, first couple of issues of the heroes return relaunch, and Red Dawn by Geoff Johns through Dissassmbled. That was my entire Avengers collection so I didn't know much but I still enjoyed it very much.

[Doom Hammer]

It's heavy readin' -- I picked up the issues a while ago and have yet to finish -- but it's also really spectacular.

[NathanielEssex]

"I really enjoyed it and didn't have much knowledge, other than general knowledge of the Avengers."

Yeah, me too. I bought in 2000 when I just started getting into the Avengers. I was also buying much of the Busiek run at the time. I found the book extremely enjoyable. And it made me like Genis. I didn't enjoy the character when Peter David wrote him, but he was hella cool in this book. I highly recommend it for people who are into the other Busiek Avengers, or people who want to read an epic, cosmic-scale superhero story with tons of characters. This book and the Busiek series (Ultron Unlimited in particular) made me an Avengers fan forever. :)

[Nightcrawler]

Unless you are pretty knowledgable about the Avengers and their history, alot of the stuff in there is going to go right over your head. Nevertheless, it is a great read, and I definately reccomend it.

[TransformersFan]

I know that this is an older trade. Ive heard some good things about it, but since I trust the opinions of those on this board wholeheartedly I wanted to see what ya'll thought about it.

I was thinking of picking it up. Would a newbie like understand it? I heard that it delves into Avengers canon alot, and it involves timetravel (woo-hoo, my fave)

Thoughts?

Thanks.

[XPac]

If you have access to a Borders or some other bookstores with trades you might wanna check it out yourself. It's out there.

But yes, I did like it A LOT. It was a fun read. It MIGHT be hard for a newbie to understand cause I think Busiek almost wrote that more for the hardcore Avengers fans than anyone else. There's a lot of retcons going on there.

The story does explain itself, and it's a fast fun ride even if you don't know the history and backstory of everything going down. But I do suspect it might be a bit confusing, or in the least you won't enjoy it as much.

But it's one of the better Avengers stories that have come out in recent years, at least for those that have a taste for the more classic Avengers stuff. If you can get a copy to read through, it's worth your time.

[The Shadow]

Avengers Forever? Is it any good?

Yes.

Yes it is.
Awesome art and a fantastic story.

It's also directed at the die hard Avengers fan because to say that it is continuity heavy is an understatement!

[phantom1592]

I was never a Die hard Avengers Fan, more.... Casual. I was able to understand the book fairly well. It does go out of its way to explain itself.


That said, that while I thought it was pretty good... A true Die hard fan would LOVE it. It tries to wrap up so many mysteries that I never knew existed.

[mattbib]

Yes, it's great, especially if your a hardcore Avengers fan. I say this because AF is VERY self/past-referential. Despite that fact, it's fairly self-explanatory and has plenty of references to help readers unfamiliar with the past storylines. I just re-read it last week, and it definitely holds up.

[Ivan Isaacs]

I had a hard time to stay awake while reading it - as I had with Busiek's whole Avengers run. As much as I loved nearly everything else Busiek produced his Avengers NEVER worked for me (and the Avengers are my favorite Marvel franchise).

[Doom Hammer]

I bought the individual issues from a convention a while ago. I haven't gotten around to finishing them. It was good, but heavy, mind-melting stuff as far as continuity goes. Still I'm not huge into the Avengers and I understood it fine.

[Captain Exaggeration]

What issues are they? So far I've collected Vol. 1 & 2 of Busiek/Perez's run... the best Avengers creative team of all time!

[DDM]

What issues are they? So far I've collected Vol. 1 & 2 of Busiek/Perez's run... the best Avengers creative team of all time!

Avengers Forever #1-12 has been collected in the Avengers Forever TPB.

[Stagier]

this maxi rocked! it was what got me into the avengers in the first place. get it!

[Cayman]

It was good, if a bit repetitive.

Cay

[Will.S]

It's definitely good stuff, highly recommended reading.

In fact I'll have to re-read it again since it's been a while.

[Golon9977]

I would say no. If you are new to Avengers, the storyline will be very confusing for you.

But yes, it is a very good series.

[Lou_Kayge]

I bought all the issues for continuity's sake,but I too would often doze off or get distracted while reading it. Time-travel stories are hit and miss with me. Sometimes interesting,sometimes not.

[static]

i absolutly love alternate reality versions of established characters (hence my admiration for what if! and Exiles) ...this series solved alot of continutity problems and was just a great read...long time fan or not...the art was incredible and makes me with Pacheco was with Marvel .....

[streator]

i've always considered getting it as well but have not because i'm not too keen on the avengers/i don't know a lot of their history.

i do enjoy pacheco art though.

i'll look into it online and then we'll see.

here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Forever is where i'm starting.

[Babylon23]

Does the trade feature the footnotes? The individual issues had backcover footnotes that helped point readers in the right direction continuity-wise.

Anyway, I loved this series. It's one of my all-time favourite Avengers stories. However, I'm a huge "classic" Avengers fan, so I'm sure that's a big part of it.

[mattbib]

Does the trade feature the footnotes? The individual issues had backcover footnotes that helped point readers in the right direction continuity-wise.Yes, the trade has the pages showing previous works cited. A good resource.

[rick]

I actually got a real kick out of this series. But at the same time I can understand where it could be confusing to readers not so steeped in Avengers continuity as I am.

Having said that though, I still heavily recommend this trade to anyone who is a fan of the Avengers.

The dialoge is fun, the art is good, the footnotes are very helpful, and the story actually in the end makes sense.

I liked it alot.

[mattbib]

I actually got a real kick out of this series. But at the same time I can understand where it could be confusing to readers not so steeped in Avengers continuity as I am.

Having said that though, I still heavily recommend this trade to anyone who is a fan of the Avengers.

The dialoge is fun, the art is good, the footnotes are very helpful, and the story actually in the end makes sense.

I liked it alot.Not to mention it used a well-defined cast at possibly some of their most interesting points in Marvel history. You'd guess that a lot of thought went into picking which Avengers to use, but if I remember the preface correctly a lot of the choices were actually made by Pacheco based on who he'd like to draw.

[Kurt Busiek]

Not to mention it used a well-defined cast at possibly some of their most interesting points in Marvel history. You'd guess that a lot of thought went into picking which Avengers to use, but if I remember the preface correctly a lot of the choices were actually made by Pacheco based on who he'd like to draw.

No, a lot of thought went into the cast. Some of that thought was provided by Carlos, not merely based on who he'd like to draw but also based on who'd serve the story well -- Carlos is very, very story-minded.

He suggested the Englehart Cap and the post-Kree/Skrull Hawkeye because of their transitional states as much as because of their visuals. He did say he wanted to draw Songbird because he thinks she's adorable, but that wouldn'thave been enough if we hadn't figured out character issues for her to deal with.

kdb

[cactusmaac]

I didn't get much out of it since I barely know anything about the Avengers and their history.

The Busiek\Perez run on the main title was a lot easier to grasp.

[Lord S]

Pardon me for ressurrecting this old thread...but I just finished reading this story and was quite impressed.

It started very slowly...and for a while I was wondering where it was going...but by issue 8 I was pumped up and found a new appreciation for the Avengers, and especially for Kang the Conquerer...who I always thought lacked dimensions...I loved how they showed his history.

I've only really had a moderate understanding of the Avengers over the years...I knew of some key stories, but was not what you would dub a true hardcore fan, but I found this story helped me understand the Avengers a lot better.

Interesting how the Phantom talked about the Scarlet Witch and her powers...I wonder if Bendis used this as a source for setting up 'Disassembled' and 'House of M'.

Anyway, this was a great story...I recommend it for true Avengers fans.

[XPac]

Pardon me for ressurrecting this old thread...but I just finished reading this story and was quite impressed.

It started very slowly...and for a while I was wondering where it was going...but by issue 8 I was pumped up and found a new appreciation for the Avengers, and especially for Kang the Conquerer...who I always thought lacked dimensions...I loved how they showed his history.

I've only really had a moderate understanding of the Avengers over the years...I knew of some key stories, but was not what you would dub a true hardcore fan, but I found this story helped me understand the Avengers a lot better.

Interesting how the Phantom talked about the Scarlet Witch and her powers...I wonder if Bendis used this as a source for setting up 'Disassembled' and 'House of M'.

Anyway, this was a great story...I recommend it for true Avengers fans.

Scarlet Witch's power has been implied many times, so Bendis deciding to turn her into an uber plot device isn't exactly pulling it out of thin air even though it did feel like it came out of nowhere at the time.

Had there been a bit more build up leading to what happened, it probably would have worked out better.

But that aside, Avengers forever does help you understand both Kang and the Avengers and their history. It's a great story in that regard. It's a shame none of the Avengers stuff today gives you that sense of history in the team. That's not a bash against Bendis books because I'm a huge fan of them. But there is a certain feel that's sort of lost in the translation, and that's more evident when you read books like Avengers Forever.

[Lord S]

It's a shame none of the Avengers stuff today gives you that sense of history in the team. That's not a bash against Bendis books because I'm a huge fan of them. But there is a certain feel that's sort of lost in the translation, and that's more evident when you read books like Avengers Forever. Yeah today's stuff seems to be more street-level...not what you would think of as traditional Avengers material. There hasn't been much in the way of true Avengers action on a global scale, as even the global stuff is street-level, (ninjas in Japan). I don't have high hopes at all for this new Skrull invasion thing.

But anyway, I hope Kang returns one day...would have been nice to see him in Ultron's place in 'Conquest'...but I guess it wouldn't have made sense, seeing as how he and the Supreme Intelligence parted on friendly terms...then again, I don't think Kang would care too much about hurting the Supremor's feelings.

[Eclips0]

This is in my opinion the greatest Avengers story of all time. This is Kurt Busiek's masterpiece in my opinion. Sinestro Corps War calibur.

[MattShepherd]

Agreed -- I've been re-reading old Avengers lately, and it struck me how much fun the book was back in the late '70s and early '80s. I also like Bendis' Avengers, for entirely different reasons, but Avengers Forever was the most fun a writer has had with the team in years. An obvious labour of love.

Haven't read the Sinestro Corps War, so I can't place it on that sort of scale, but one of my favourite Avengers stories of all time.

[Shellhead]

Busiek was a tough act for anybody to follow, because he wrote the definitive Ultron story and the definitive Kang story (Avengers Forever, not The Kang Dynasty). So I can understand Bendis wanting to take things in a radically different direction. It just so happens that the new direction is one that I can't stand.

[Aubergine~!]

Busiek was a tough act for anybody to follow, because he wrote the definitive Ultron story and the definitive Kang story (Avengers Forever, not The Kang Dynasty). So I can understand Bendis wanting to take things in a radically different direction. It just so happens that the new direction is one that I can't stand.

A.) What is the definitive Ultron story? Issue numbers, if anyone has them please.

B.) Avengers Forever was an amazing series. I wasn't too knowledgeable on Avengers continuity when I read it and I still enjoyed it immensely.

C.) Mighty Avengers is the Avengers trying to be Morrison-era JLA and New Avengers is the Avengers trying to be the Runaways.

[Shellhead]

A.) What is the definitive Ultron story? Issue numbers, if anyone has them please.


Ultron Unleashed: Avengers #19-22 (volume 3).

[XPac]

Busiek was a tough act for anybody to follow, because he wrote the definitive Ultron story and the definitive Kang story (Avengers Forever, not The Kang Dynasty). So I can understand Bendis wanting to take things in a radically different direction. It just so happens that the new direction is one that I can't stand.

Technically though, the act Bendis had to follow was Chuck Austens. Not exactly the biggest shoes in the world to fill.

[Shellhead]

Technically though, the act Bendis had to follow was Chuck Austens. Not exactly the biggest shoes in the world to fill.

And yet Bendis chose to embrace Austen's unfavorable view of Hank Pym, despite the nice way that Busiek resolved the issue a couple of years earlier.

[XPac]

And yet Bendis chose to embrace Austen's unfavorable view of Hank Pym, despite the nice way that Busiek resolved the issue a couple of years earlier.

Marvel in general embraced the unfavorable view of Hank. He betrayed the team in TBolts, he broke up with Jan AGAIN in Beyond (after Bendis actually put them back together in Avengers Finale), and coming off him helping build the the Clone which killed Bill Foster in Millars CW, he's now a pill popping nutcase working with evil Nazi's in Initiative.

[Shyft]

It had Genis in it, and it rocked.

[XPac]

It had Genis in it, and it rocked.

Yeah. It's kind of a shame that we won't see Songbird and Genis on the Avengers. I don't see either joining anytime soon, so that was probably it for them.

[Shellhead]

To be honest, I skipped Avengers Forever when it first came out. I looked at the line-up and didn't like what I saw. Cap and Hawkeye were fine, but two versions of Hank Pym! And of course Genis and Songbird didn't seem to fit, when there were so many classic Avengers that deserved more exposure.

But after Busiek left Avengers, I was looking to read more of his stuff, so I finally bought the Avengers Forever trade. I loved it, and in the context of the story, the cast choices were great.

[Shyft]

Yeah. It's kind of a shame that we won't see Songbird and Genis on the Avengers. I don't see either joining anytime soon, so that was probably it for them.

I know right. For example, im a fan of the Sentry, but Genis was doing"good guy with mental issues and massive power" before the Sentry was a twinkle in anyones eye. And Genis was nuts and proud of it, something the Sentry could learn a thing or two about!

[XPac]

I know right. For example, im a fan of the Sentry, but Genis was doing"good guy with mental issues and massive power" before the Sentry was a twinkle in anyones eye. And Genis was nuts and proud of it, something the Sentry could learn a thing or two about!

Sentry and Genis definately had a lot in common.

But with Marvel Boy, Phyla, Gravity, and the original Mar-Vell coming back I guess poor Genis didn't stand a chance.

[Alphaxman]

This has to be one of the best Avengers stories ever. And it had time travel and fixing past continuity witch is a tricky thing to do. For the most part it did it with flying colors.

9.5 out of 10

[XPac]

And yet Bendis chose to embrace Austen's unfavorable view of Hank Pym, despite the nice way that Busiek resolved the issue a couple of years earlier.

Thinking about it, in a way Busiek actually sowed the seeds for the unfavorable Hank.

The Crossing retconned Hank's betrayal and hitting Jan to Kang messing with his mind. But Busiek retconned that back to it just being Hanks fault. If not for Busieks retcon, Austen might not have been able to drug all this up again since the mind control was his free pass.

[Valeria Kementari]

Avengers Forever is my bible. It's the BEST Avengers Story ever told

[Aubergine~!]

Ultron Unleashed: Avengers #19-22 (volume 3).

Ah, that's the one where he takes over/murders a country right? Heard about it.

Thanks!

[psm]

Thinking about it, in a way Busiek actually sowed the seeds for the unfavorable Hank.

The Crossing retconned Hank's betrayal and hitting Jan to Kang messing with his mind. But Busiek retconned that back to it just being Hanks fault. If not for Busieks retcon, Austen might not have been able to drug all this up again since the mind control was his free pass.

Actually, the unfavorable attitude towards Hank Pym has been there since Roy Thomas's run in the 60's. Although it wasn't until Shooter came along to really heighten it in the 80's. So it's been that way for about 20 years.

Personally, I didn't like Avenger's Forever. It worries to much about fixing continuity and not focusing enough on the story. Although, I did like the art.

[StoneGold]

And yet Bendis chose to embrace Austen's unfavorable view of Hank Pym, despite the nice way that Busiek resolved the issue a couple of years earlier.

Yes, in a piss poor way that honestly created more problems than it solved. I'm magically better, I think I'll wear the suit I went crazy in, beat my wife and tried to attack the Avengers with a giant robot!


Not one of Kurt's better moments.

[Will.S]

Yes, in a piss poor way that honestly created more problems than it solved. I'm magically better, I think I'll wear the suit I went crazy in, beat my wife and tried to attack the Avengers with a giant robot!


Not one of Kurt's better moments.
I suppose with all that Hank Pym continuity they delved through that Kurt wanted to salvage the character but I suppose once the damage was done that early it's hard to reconcile that aspect of Hank's character.

I do like the Yellowjacket costume the most though and find that to be his best and most iconic look.

[XPac]

I suppose with all that Hank Pym continuity they delved through that Kurt wanted to salvage the character but I suppose once the damage was done that early it's hard to reconcile that aspect of Hank's character.

I do like the Yellowjacket costume the most though and find that to be his best and most iconic look.

If the point was to salvage the character, then I think Busiek would have been better just leaving him alone. At this point he was already largely salvaged. He had the Crossing retcon giving him a bit of a free pass, and he was a respected hero and Avenger again.

Digging up the corpse again only opened the door for Pyms descent. But who knows, perhaps that was the point. I do think that Hank's problems are what make him a unique hero.

[psm]

Digging up the corpse again only opened the door for Pyms descent. But who knows, perhaps that was the point. I do think that Hank's problems are what make him a unique hero.

I agree. Plus it's annoying to watch different writers continually change his status quo to fit their version. He's dating Jan. Now he's not. It's his fault. No, it's somebody else's fault. He's giantman. He's yellowjacket. etc.....

It appear that Marvel has finally begun to write him consistently. It may not be a version all people like but I think it's the most interesting.

I still think Stern had the best resolution for the character. He stopped putting him in costume because he never could handle it. Not all people can be heroes.

[XPac]

I agree. Plus it's annoying to watch different writers continually change his status quo to fit their version. He's dating Jan. Now he's not. It's his fault. No, it's somebody else's fault. He's giantman. He's yellowjacket. etc.....

It appear that Marvel has finally begun to write him consistently. It may not be a version all people like but I think it's the most interesting.

I still think Stern had the best resolution for the character. He stopped putting him in costume because he never could handle it. Not all people can be heroes.

I liked the Dr. Pym identity too... though realistically despite not wearing a costume he was effectively acting as a superhero.

We already had plenty of bug sized and growing characters... having a pure scientist was actually kind of unique. I'm not sure why they opted to put him back in costume.

[JohnRD]

I posted a couple months ago asking about Avengers and writers to look at to get into the series, I ended up buying the Avengers Forever series. I'm roughly half way through at this point and honestly feel as though I've been won over. The art is solid and the story is pretty fun up to this point.

My question is, how does this compare to other archs?

[marvell2100]

I'd put it in my top 10 possibly top 5. I would put the "Korvac Saga" at the top of the list probably followed by "Ultron Unlimited".

[XPac]

As Avenger stories go, I'd definately consider it a classic.

If you're an old school Avengers fan, I think it's a very fun and feel good story. And it's a great Kang story too.

[rwe1138]

I loved it, but I'm totally biased towards all of Kurt's Avengers work. It's one of the few series I've shelled out the big bucks for to get the oversized hardcovers of.

[TJKernan]

One of the three best Avengers arcs ever, in my humble opinion, a great read and worth every penny.

[JohnRD]

Yeah everyone in that thread basically suggested Kurt's Avengers books, and they had the whole series at the comic shop I go to, and I have definitely not been disappointed. I'm really looking forward to finding out why Avengers at low points in their time were chosen.