Villains Changed by Neron

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't know the general consensus, but Underworld Unleashed was probably my favorite of the big DCU crossovers. I loved Neron, I loved the upgrade in villains' powers, and I even loved the parts it stole from "Acts of Vengeance". :)

A lot of the Neron-enhanced villains have reverted to normal since then, and it's understandable. The Aquaman writer wants to use the Black Manta he's familiar with, not the big monster that appeared in two stories ten years ago. But there have been so many changes, and all of them unmentioned and off-panel, that they almost need to be catalogued to keep track of them.

Black Manta - Human again.
Major Disaster - Lost his "cause and effect" powers.
Mr. Freeze - Lost his ability to generate ice on his own.
Dr. Polaris - Is no longer cured of his multiple personalities.
Shadow Thief - Back to wearing the suit, having lost his shadow powers.

With this many changes, it seems reasonable to suppose that all of the Neron-induced changes just went away. Maybe they had a half-life, maybe Neron decided to take them away, whatever. Only problem with that is, some notable changes from that story have lasted.

Killer Moth, to the best of my knowledge, is still that disgusting wasp monster with the name I can't spell or pronounce. Metallo still has the ability to merge with machinery as long as his head's intact, or something. Lex Luthor is still young and fit. Blockbuster remained intelligent until the day he died. And Sonar still has his sound technology implanted within him.

So who else is still out there with Hell-Powers, do ya think? Is the new Spellbinder still around? Does Ocean Master still have to hang on to his staff all the time? Does Abra Kadabra still have real magic, not just future tech? Does Joker still have his cigars? :D

What else am I forgetting?


SEAN

[Gingold]

Luthor is still hale and hearty.

Edit: stupid. I just reread your post and noticed you had already mentioned that.

[Shem the Penman]

No, Abra Kadabra is no longer a real magician.

[Michael Painter]

umm, I'm pretty sure that Ethan Van Sciver has said that Sonar is going to return to his original dictator look, unless its a new one, and I might be wrong.

[Sean Whitmore]

umm, I'm pretty sure that Ethan Van Sciver has said that Sonar is going to return to his original dictator look, unless its a new one, and I might be wrong.


Ugh. I'm not excited to see Sonar return in any form. He was a joke as a guy with a tuning fork gun, and he was a joke as a cyborg.


SEAN

[Lex]

A lot of the Neron-enhanced villains have reverted to normal since then, and it's understandable. The Aquaman writer wants to use the Black Manta he's familiar with, not the big monster that appeared in two stories ten years ago. But there have been so many changes, and all of them unmentioned and off-panel, that they almost need to be catalogued to keep track of them.

Yeah, I think it's understandable too. I don't think there's any editorial edict saying that characters have to remain at the power level Neron gave them. Writers try to find the best version of of the characters they want to use. Sometimes that means trying something new, while other times that means taking the character back to his original form. While I thought Black Manta's new form looked cool, I think he works best as a human. But in the case of Killer Moth, I think being turned into Charaxas is for the best.

So it depends on what that writer or editor thinks is best for the individual character. Metallo has gone back and forth in power levels. He still had the Neron upgrade during the Energy Superman year. Then, when the Y2K story happened, he was upgraded with B-13 tech. Then, they brought him back down. Based on his Superman/Batman appearance, he's somewhere in between his original apperance and his Neron upgrade. While he doesn't absorb other machines into himself, he seems to have complete control over his robotic body (and transforms it at will).

So, like I said, each writer looks for what works best in each character. Also, it depends on that writer's preference. I thought Major Disaster's upgrade was a great idea, but only Waid seemed to use him. Then, Kieth Giffen brought him back with other Injustice Gang characters and gave him his old powers back... which I saw as more of a personal preference.

And Sonar still has his sound technology implanted

It should be noted that his semi-cybornetic body wasn't because of Neron. I remember reading a Green Lantern issue that mentioned Sonar had turned his own power in on himself and, somehow, that was the result.

Does Joker still have his cigars? :D

I remember a funny line dealing with this during the Joker's Last Laugh crossover. In one of the main JLL issues, Batman and the JLA found a "to do list" that Joker wrote (this to do list was the only good thing about that whole, stupid crossover, aside from the Mr. Mind and Multi-Man scenes). Anyway, one of the items on the list was about Joker asking the Pope if he actually did sell his soul to Neron. If it's true, the next item on the list was to stock-up on aloe vera or sunscreen or something.

No, Abra Kadabra is no longer a real magician.

And that's good. I think one of Waid's mistakes was taking Kadabra's uniqueness away. There are tons of real magicians in the DCU. But how many people use 64th century technology to make it look like he's using magic? Just him. I was very glad to see the Johns gave that back to Kadabra's character..

[DMike]

I think I remember hearing somewhere about how Neron's demotion to rhyming demon caused his deals to be revoked since he no longer has any claim over their souls. That's obviously not true in some cases, but it sounds reasonable.

Originally Posted by Sean Whitmore
A lot of the Neron-enhanced villains have reverted to normal since then, and it's understandable. The Aquaman writer wants to use the Black Manta he's familiar with, not the big monster that appeared in two stories ten years ago. But there have been so many changes, and all of them unmentioned and off-panel, that they almost need to be catalogued to keep track of them.

I disagree with this idea. A good editor would already be aware of these types of changes anyway, and a good writer would find ways of using the changed characters regardless of the changes themselves. If anything, the idea that a writer would revert a character to the way he/she used to be simply because that's how the writer is familiar with him/her would be incredibly selfish on the writer's part and only proves to expose the limitations as a writer.

[Viking Bastard]

One might theorize that while all 'extra powers' got reduced (perhaps thanks to Neron's
demotion) all actual major physical transformation do not.

Hench Lex Luthor is still healthy, Killer Moth is still a monster and Blockbuster kept his
beefed up brain. IIRC, didn't Black Manta get 'healed' out of his deformity by Aquaman?

[Sean Whitmore]

IIRC, didn't Black Manta get 'healed' out of his deformity by Aquaman?


Certainly possible. I avoided all of Veitch's Aquaman, but I know Black Manta showed up at some point for a team-up.

I dunno, hearing that Arthur was gonna team up with the guy who killed his baby didn't give me the feeling that Veitch had a great handle on the character. :)


SEAN

[Viking Bastard]

I believe Aquaman healed Black Manta with his Healing Hand given to him by the Lady of the Lake.


Yes. Veitch's Aquaman run sucked.

[SuperManny]

Major Disaster - Lost his "cause and effect" powers.

What else am I forgetting?


When did Major Disaster lose his powers? Wasn't he at full power still at the end of JL Elite?

Neron affected a number of villains in the Starman title, but I fail to remember. Blue Devil is still in his permanent demonic form, but he's a hero. HellGrammite, a Superman villain, was also transformed permanently into an insect creature.

No, Abra Kadabra is no longer a real magician.

When was this established? I don't recall Johns fixing this....

[Sean Whitmore]

When did Major Disaster lose his powers? Wasn't he at full power still at the end of JL Elite?


Different set of powers. His regular powers have to do with natural disasters. He can create earthquakes, tidal waves, etc. They originally came from weapons that he hired scientists to make for him, but over time, the powers internalized in him.

What Neron gave him was a sort of "cause and effect" vision. He could perfectly see the chain of events that he could cause by doing something completely innocuous, like slapping a guy on the back.

I don't know how effective a power it was against enemies, but it was a cool as hell visual. In an issue of Flash, this guy was annoying Disaster, so he just calmly looked around the street to see what he had to work with. He tossed his sandwich to a dog, which made its owner spill her apples, which tripped up a bicycler, which sent the bike knocking an old man into the street, which made the bus driver swerve to avoid him, which made him crush said annoying guy. :)


SEAN

[Shem the Penman]

When did Major Disaster lose his powers? Wasn't he at full power still at the end of JL Elite?

Neron affected a number of villains in the Starman title, but I fail to remember. Blue Devil is still in his permanent demonic form, but he's a hero. HellGrammite, a Superman villain, was also transformed permanently into an insect creature.



When was this established? I don't recall Johns fixing this....

Well, I just checked what I think is Kadabra's last major appearance (Flash 207-208), and it looks like it's more a case of "ignore" than "fix." Kadabra's just using technology again, and that's all that's said about it.

[Michael Painter]

the Starman people who were affected by Neron were the original Mist, who was later killed alongside the original Starman. Phosphorous Man was affected too, but was killed as well.
The original Ragdoll was given his life back by Neron, and it has stayed that way ever since.

[Sean Whitmore]

the Starman people who were affected by Neron were the original Mist, who was later killed alongside the original Starman. Phosphorous Man was affected too, but was killed as well.
The original Ragdoll was given his life back by Neron, and it has stayed that way ever since.


This all seems to validate Viking's theory. All the souped-up powers are gone, but physical transformations remain. Which include Luthor, Ragdoll, Blue Devil, Charaxes, and Blockbuster.

Oh, and Black Manta, who was healed by Aquaman's magical water hand. :rolleyes:

Ooh, and Triumph, who wished himself out of existence or something. :)


SEAN

[Loren]

Ragdoll was on death's bed when Neron approached him, and he sold his soul for health and youth. He's showing up in the next JSA Classified arc (which means the DCU will actually have two Ragdolls at the same time).

Whatever Kadabra's current status quo is, it was set back in "DC First: Superman/Flash." In it, he got healed from his creepy Waid-era 'bald-and-burned' look, and returned to looking like a stage magician.

Triumph didn't wish himself to be erased. Not exactly. He contemplated it, but eventually decided against it and put the candle down and left. Then his teammates came along and, unknowingly, lit the candle.

All the Rogues who died in UU eventually came back to life and got their souls back.

Copperhead didn't revert to his old 'guy in a snake-suit' look, so his physical transformation did remain. But he ended looking a lot more like Jim Lee's Killer Croc in his last appearance, in "Manhunter." Plus, that first Manhunter story involved a plot point of Copperhead being 'metahuman,' although he actually got his powers from Neron. It's all sort of moot, since he was killed soon thereafter.

I found a reference to Neron creating a new Spellbinder. Did she even appear again?

Killer Frost got some sort of upgrade. How was she looking in the recent 'Deadshot' mini?

There were a bunch of characters who sold their souls, but I was never clear on what they got in return. Circe, Deadshot, Bolt, Cheetah, etc...was there even a change that could be detected?

[Doom]

You have to wonder who got screwed over more?

The DC villians who sold their souls and have to look forward to a lifetime in Hell for powers that didn't give them what they wanted, often caused them immense pain/gave them new weaknesses and in a number of cases are now gone.

Or Neron who now has lost his hold as a high Demon Lord and all he's got to show for it are the souls of a bunch of guys who were probably going to end up in Hell anyway.

The only guys who really did well out of it were Joker and Luthor (since theyre deals still stand and didn't screw them over.)

Mogul (considering he got a quick death as opposed to what Hal Jordon would have done to him)
Oh and the Rogues who all ended up with a "Get Out of Hell Free" card.

[Lex]

I don't know how effective a power it was against enemies, but it was a cool as hell visual. In an issue of Flash, this guy was annoying Disaster, so he just calmly looked around the street to see what he had to work with. He tossed his sandwich to a dog, which made its owner spill her apples, which tripped up a bicycler, which sent the bike knocking an old man into the street, which made the bus driver swerve to avoid him, which made him crush said annoying guy. :)

Heh. Yeah, Waid used that power well. Remember what Disaster did to his ex-wife's pet parrot? Heh.

It's too bad that no one followed up on that version of Major Disaster. He could've been a powerful villain.

[Doom]

Ragdoll was on death's bed when Neron approached him, and he sold his soul for health and youth. He's showing up in the next JSA Classified arc (which means the DCU will actually have two Ragdolls at the same time).

Whatever Kadabra's current status quo is, it was set back in "DC First: Superman/Flash." In it, he got healed from his creepy Waid-era 'bald-and-burned' look, and returned to looking like a stage magician.

Triumph didn't wish himself to be erased. Not exactly. He contemplated it, but eventually decided against it and put the candle down and left. Then his teammates came along and, unknowingly, lit the candle.

All the Rogues who died in UU eventually came back to life and got their souls back.

Copperhead didn't revert to his old 'guy in a snake-suit' look, so his physical transformation did remain. But he ended looking a lot more like Jim Lee's Killer Croc in his last appearance, in "Manhunter." Plus, that first Manhunter story involved a plot point of Copperhead being 'metahuman,' although he actually got his powers from Neron. It's all sort of moot, since he was killed soon thereafter.

I found a reference to Neron creating a new Spellbinder. Did she even appear again?

Killer Frost got some sort of upgrade. How was she looking in the recent 'Deadshot' mini?

There were a bunch of characters who sold their souls, but I was never clear on what they got in return. Circe, Deadshot, Bolt, Cheetah, etc...was there even a change that could be detected?


Near as I can remember Bolt, Deadshot, Merlyn (and two others) didn't actually sell their souls. They were each given a target and told to kill that person and if they did they'd become the greatest killer of all time.

Not 100% sure on that, just I remember them all being sent after different people to kill and the JLA had to stop them. I can check it up.

[titanfan]

Killer Frost still retains her post-Neron look to this day.

Blockbuster retained his intelligence as well, at least until he got killed.

[Grazzt]

Slightly OT, but what villains besides Shade refused to give Neron their souls?

[Michael Painter]

the original Spellbinder didn't want to sell his soul and wasn't interested in Neron's offer, leading to the second female Spellbinder to kill the original and accept Neron's offer.
Mongul, the original one, also refused Neron's offer, and was killed by Neron himself.

[Doom]

Slightly OT, but what villains besides Shade refused to give Neron their souls?


Lobo sold his soul to Neron in exchange for...Neron's soul.

I think the deal was eventually canceled.

A group of villians (most notably the Riddler and the Fiddler) turned down Nerons offer because they kind of understood what he really was.

Oh and the Rouges all got off in the end.

[SuperManny]

Killer Frost still retains her post-Neron look to this day.


It depends which writer we're dealing with, because generally I've seen her with her Pre-Crisis I-am-into-pearl-necklaces look. The version that appeared in the Superboy comic book was a much younger teenager, I believe.

She recently appeared in Firestorm and claimed she was dying :confused:

[Lex]

It depends which writer we're dealing with, because generally I've seen her with her Pre-Crisis I-am-into-pearl-necklaces look. The version that appeared in the Superboy comic book was a much younger teenager, I believe.

She recently appeared in Firestorm and claimed she was dying :confused:

Yeah, this is a case of writers ignoring it and using whichever version of Frosty they want (although some of this may be from the penciller too).

[Pookienick]

It depends which writer we're dealing with, because generally I've seen her with her Pre-Crisis I-am-into-pearl-necklaces look. The version that appeared in the Superboy comic book was a much younger teenager, I believe.

She recently appeared in Firestorm and claimed she was dying :confused:

I think Firestrom 'altered' her body using a normal human as a template to cure her or at least extend her life - she still looked post-Neron after though.