Wolverine #31: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. 6 of 6

[Will.S]

Final part of the Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. storyline and it's the final knock down drag out fight between Wolverine and The Gorgon.

Breakdown:

S.H.I.E.L.D. agents pull Gorgon's humongous sword out of Wolverine's throat and Wolverine tells the agents to give Nick Fury their maximum protection before he's off to save Nick.

Meanwhile in S.H.I.E.L.D.'s secret infirmary Gorgon has Elektra at his mercy. The agents at the scene fire at the Gorgon but to no avail, he deflects their bullets masterfull with the twirling of his sword. Logan is still too far away trying to teleport his way into the infirmary. Gorgon kills off all the agents on hand until he finally reaches Nick Fury completely helpless until Wolverine catches up and rams Gorgon outside of the building with his jetpack.

They freefall into an apartment and have their climactic battle. They even each other out until Gorgon gains the upper hand and brutally takes down Wolverine against a wall again pinning him with sheer strength. Gorgon is about to do his finishing move on Wolverine until *snikt* he sees himself under his own reflection on Wolverine's claws. He turns to stone and Wolverine finishes him off into little pieces.

Spider-Man notices all the ruckus and sees Wolverine battered and brusied (but healing wonderfully). He offers to help him but Wolverine still has unfinished business to take care of. Cut to Nick Fury up and about reporting to Kitty all that has happened so far, Elektra is gone and is starting her own version of the Hand, Hydra is still around and won't be going away anytime soon and Northstar is misssing.

Nick gets to Wolverine's status and apparantly he's been killing by the thousand searching for something. That something is the body of Ichiro's son who he couldn't save in the first place, he visits the couple in Japan for the last time and sends his apologies/condolences to the family, all three mourn the boy's death at his grave.

The end.

My thoughts:

Really cool, action packed issue with a neat payoff to the final battle. I'm just surprised nobody but Logan thought of it sooner. It sucks Gorgon is gone since he's an insanely powerful villain but at the same time I'm satisfied with his death. The book also ties up pretty neatly Millar's run (with enough loose ends for the next writer) and at least we get some closure to Ichiro's son who he tried to get back in the first place.

A great run on Millar's part and I had alot of fun with it since it retains what is so good about Wolverine as a character which is his sheer determination, his ruthlessness, and honor/loyalty to his friends. It doesn't have a happy ending since it ends at the grave of the boy but I felt Millar really got the character and made him a sympathetic character as well as the guy to fear if you were ever to cross paths with him (both brainwashed and normal again).

[Blackcat]

So nothing on Northstar???????????


.

[bagheera]

Nick Fury lies to Kitty and says they never recovered NOrthstar but gee golly, thank goodness the Hand was never able to resurrect him and turn him into a bad guy. Meanwhile they show a shot of Northstar frothing at the mouth, manacled to some nasty contraption. Apparently the deprogramming is not going well.

I found Wolverine's manner of finishing off The Gorgon less than satisfying. Surely someone else would have thought of this before! At the same time, I was disappointed that The Gorgon died. He was a great villain. However, I never expected him to be so super-powered and felt that he was a tad over-the-top with the fighting skills. (More to the point, I think it should be almost never Wolvie runs into someone who can out-fight him but I guess that did help portray his courage and perserverence.)

All in all, I'd give it 5 1/2 claws out of 6.

Very touching ending. I love when they convey great emotion without words. A little tear in his eye would have been a nice touch. Logan loves the children.

Thanks for the review, Will S!!!

[thik_3rd]

it thought it was pretty weak, and millar's run as a whole has been below average at best.

[Cayman]

It was a good finale for a memorable run. I'm done with the book now, other than that last Millar issue in a few months.

The Northstar part made me mad.

Cay

[Will.S]

Nick Fury lies to Kitty and says they never recovered NOrthstar but gee golly, thank goodness the Hand was never able to resurrect him and turn him into a bad guy. Meanwhile they show a shot of Northstar frothing at the mouth, manacled to some nasty contraption. Apparently the deprogramming is not going well.
Heh, there's definitely misdirection on Nick's part in his message to Kitty. I don't think anyone but Wolverine and S.H.I.E.L.D. know what's happened to Northstar so Nick is going to be privy of that information and keep tabs on him that's for sure, at least until the programming wears off.


The Northstar part made me mad.
There's still hope for him though, I'm guessing he's going to remain a villain for a while or under the watchful eye of S.H.I.E.L.D. during inprisonment.

I found Wolverine's manner of finishing off The Gorgon less than satisfying. Surely someone else would have thought of this before! At the same time, I was disappointed that The Gorgon died. He was a great villain. However, I never expected him to be so super-powered and felt that he was a tad over-the-top with the fighting skills. (More to the point, I think it should be almost never Wolvie runs into someone who can out-fight him but I guess that did help portray his courage and perserverence.)
Yeah I would have liked to have seen Logan be more successful in combat against the Gorgon since he should be really pissed and skilled enough to do some major damage.

He's been smacked around throughout the entire run so I thought he deserved a bit more of an advantage but otherwise not bad. He used his smarts and was successful where nobody else was (I'm also puzzled as to why nobody figured out the trick to his power).


Very touching ending. I love when they convey great emotion without words. A little tear in his eye would have been a nice touch. Logan loves the children.

Thanks for the review, Will S!!!
Agreed and no problem ;)

[Cayman]

Hasn't Northstar already returned as a good guy in Academy X though?

Cay

[Will.S]

Hasn't Northstar already returned as a good guy in Academy X though?

Cay
Over in New X-Men: House of M yeah he's a good guy again but that whole thing is after Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D..

I believe the issues following this are the HoM tie-ins as well.

[Blackcat]

I'm afraid Northstar will go into limbo for a long time.... http://smile.smilies.nl/407.gif

.

[Gaveedra 6]

I'm afraid Northstar will go into limbo for a long time.... http://smile.smilies.nl/407.gif
.
Me too. But when he comes out, it'll be quite a scene!

His sister Aurora is in the same boat as well, no? Crazy and being holed up by the government?

[TJ Shoun]

Millar didn't go quite as deep as Rucka, but that's okay -- 'cuz there was lots of ass-kickin' to make up for it.

I loved this issue and Millar's run as a whole. Awesome fight between him and Gorgon.

It was especially good to see Logan not just completely overwhelm his opponent for once.

Wolverine needs to get his ass handed to him from time-to-time -- it removes some of that bullshit invincibility auroa that creeps up over time on characters like him and Batman...

[Cayman]

Clearly we need a Northstar mini.

One not written by Millar.

Cay

[Ryan K]

I really really liked the Enemy of the State arc, but the Agent of SHIELD storyline was subpar IMO. ESPECIALLY how Wolverine eventually got rid of the Gorgon. That was so lame it angered me. Plus a ton of inconsistincies in the fighting. The Gorgon can now apprently deflect multiple bullets with a sword, but can't dodge Wolverine on a jet pack or even just Wolverine's jabs?

To add insult to the Gorgon's fate, the whole turn people to stone thing had pretty much become a footnote about the Gorgon. At least how he was showcased. He was introduced as having these powers but we rarely saw them used (except conveniantly to remind people of them in this issue). He was played up as this ultimate ninja warrior fighter guy (which I have issues with but will let slide), and then we have him defeated by his reflection.

Lame.

[fishtaco]

What happened to Northstar last issue? When did they notice he was missing?

[pureclint]

I'm also puzzled as to why nobody figured out the trick to his power




Yeah! Who has not seen Clash of the Titans! Mirros own Medusa powers!


I did not care that he died as I did not like him, he was way to tough. Why get Wolverine on your side when he is obviously so inferior you do not need him. Gorgon could have done everything Logan did in the blink of an eye.

I did like the run early (outside of the DD fight) as Wolverine finally was shown to be a bad ass again. AoS was a let down as Wolverine went back to sucking through out most of it, even though he did have some great character moments.

[jetter_cheeze]

I picked this up wanting some good Wolverine cut em up action. This series has not been a let down. Don't think about it too hard, don't put tooo much thought and logic to it (just like when seeing an action movie) and you have yourself a very good comic.

i think the ending shows where Wolverine has gone as a character. Instead of trying to fight him like an animal, he instead uses his head and beats the Gorgan with his wits. Now how many times has that really happened with Wolverine?

[Atom_basher]

I really loved this issue, great wrap up, and it really had a cinematic feel to it, like i could really see it played out in live action in my mind. I think they could do a movie, and this arc would be the treatment for it

[Atom_basher]

I just thought of a question about the issue, can Elektra now move at the speed of thought? if so she is now a semi speedster, i reason i ask that is because the scene with gorgon she is asking the guys to shoot gorgon, and he says somthiong about speed of thought or somthing like that, can someone explain that to me

[SleepWalker]

Concerning the Gorgon's death, I figure that Wolverine has been the only one to survive long enough and to get close enough to even consider something such as using the reflection on his claws.

So I don't write it off as silly, I throw it into the "Wolverine is badass and this is why..." category; he went toe-to-toe with arguably the most powerful hand-to-hand combatant in the Marvel U, got the crap beat out of him, and still gave the baddie a run for his money.

So yeah, I thought it was a great ending to a fantastic arc. I wasn't too pleased with the Enemy of the State storyline just because I knew it couldn't deliver what it was hyped to (death of heroes in the Marvel U), but this one totally redeemed that.

[The Real Wolverine]

Mark Millar's run was an absolute disgrace to Wolverine. He didn't manage to score a single on-panel victory while fighting one on one. He lost to Elektra, Dare Devil, Mr. Fantastic (of all bloody folks), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, and Captain America. Some of those were not one on one, but I think you get my point. He did manage to take down Havoc and Beast, and Northstar by complete accident. Oh, and also, a Shark. I mean, Wolverine does nothing but act like Elektra's bitch throughout the whole ordeal and the latter comes across as being the dominant character of the series. I'm disgusted with this complete waste of cash.

How it is that Wolverine is the best there is at what he does when he needs to use someone's reflection in order to record "victory"? Wolverine, according to the Marvel U, the Marvel directory, and several handbooks/citations throughout various Wolverine comics is considered to be Marvel's GREATEST hand to hand combatant. Only Captain America and obscure members of the X-Statix group rank as high on the level of fighting skills as Wolverine. This information is coming from the official Marvel website so trying to refute it by saying that Wolverine isn't one of the most-skilled members of the Marvel U is to fly in the face of the pre-established facts and is about as valid as claiming the earth is flat. So you can see why the idea of him coming in second place all the time is nothing short of obscene and a gross miscalculation of the character's abilities by Mark Millar. I mean, this guy should have destroyed the gorgon within 20 seconds. There is absolute nothing within the Gorgon's arsenal of powers that enables him to be able to withstand being eviscerated by both sets of Wolverine's claws. Twice. How the Hell was he still standing after Wolverine scored the first shot? Never mind that. He was able to fully function after both Wolverine and Elektra impaled him with eight blades. I understand that Gorgon is a zombie now, but those generic ninjas pack the survival talent of your average mentally-impaired gopher, and they were apparently raised from the dead the same way the Gorgon was. By the way, it's impossible for Gorgon to have a healing factor since he essentially caused his own death via impalement of his own sword. Explain how he is able to even stand against Wolverine. Explain how Wolverine is able to take on Ogun and Silver Samurai yet is horrible out-classed and defeated by someone who is approximately 20 years old. Millar has to be the worst and unprofessional writer I have ever encountered on any platform, at any time. Here are some of the technical problems and story plot-holes of his work on Wolverine.

1) He portrays Wolverine as an amateur that is intimidated by Elektra of all people. The original wolverine stood up against the Hulk and yet managed to hold his own. He's clearly not intimated of someone like the Hulk so why is he intimidated by a walking panty & bra advertisement. His inner dialogue along with various other noticeable conversations depicts him as an insecure grunt that was released from the army approximately six months ago. Whenever I'm reading these issues, I'm thinking of some 30-year-old who just finished up in Iraq. Wolverine is supposed to sound a hell of a lot tougher than this. He doesn't even need to breathe to do the tasks that Millar had him blundering with. Plus, he doesn't like to use any sort of materials other than his claws. So prepping him with tech is highly uncharacteristic.

2) As mentioned before Wolverine loses virtually every important battle in the issue. This does little for his character and makes him look like a clawed goon packing your average street-level knowledge of martial arts.

3) The worst thing about this is the fact that it is an Elektra advertisement. I mean, she completely overshadows Wolverine throughout the run, and Millar recently stated on his own message board that she would make Wolverine her bitch. I mean, after all, she can catch bullets and turn invisible, right? It seems like Millar used his run of Wolverine in order to place Elektra on the top of the proverbial heap.


4) The second worst thing about this is the deception involved. We were promised that Wolverine was going to "kick ass all over the Marvel U." We never got that. We got the exact opposite. Millar totally lied about what he was going to write, and deceived fans into buying something that has degraded the character in the worst way since he had his adamantium ripped out back in the early nineties. This series is popular due to one reason and one reason only. Hype. People say this is so awesome yet take a look at it. It has so many plot-holes and inconsistencies I don't even know where to begin. Not only is the idea of the story bad, but the execution of crafting the story is totally flawed. It's as if Millar spent about five seconds considering the logic behind the various scenes and fight sequences. Several examples are as follows:

1) Wolverine being hit in the head by a five-pound weight, seeing stars and then falling onto a ninja-sword that is cocked for no apparent reason. How is it that Wolverine takes Spider-mans full punches directly to the face while cracking a smile yet somehow when a man with ordinary human strength hits him with something that weights five pounds and is constructed out a material weaker than the contents of his skeletal structure, he is rendered stunned to the point where he accidentally falls on a sharp object. Totally ridiculous.

2) Gorgon. There is no explanation given as to why Gorgon was still alive after his encounter with Elektra and Wolverine in Wolverine 30. I mean, the guy doesn't have a healing factor (As we have already seen in the issue where he impales himself with a sword and dies), and his resurrection by the hand should give him no more protection against mortal wounds than the average zombie-ninja. It just doesn't make sense and is a mistake I'm amazed was over-looked. Who the Hell was editing this thing anyway? I'm starting to seriously think that Millar didn't even give a damn about this whole arc and just cranked out whatever he wanted in the span of about five minutes for the entire run. He manipulated the audience and created his own fantasy in which Elektra is better than Wolverine, and (I'm assuming) pigs can fly and the temperature of Hell is equivalent to the deepest regions of Antarctica :mad:

[Titan Slade]

Mark Millar's run was an absolute disgrace to Wolverine. He didn't manage to score a single on-panel victory while fighting one on one. He lost to Elektra, Dare Devil, Mr. Fantastic (of all bloody folks), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, and Captain America. Some of those were not one on one, but I think you get my point. He did manage to take down Havoc and Beast, and Northstar by complete accident. Oh, and also, a Shark. I mean, Wolverine does nothing but act like Elektra's bitch throughout the whole ordeal and the latter comes across as being the dominant character of the series. I'm disgusted with this complete waste of cash.

How it is that Wolverine is the best there is at what he does when he needs to use someone's reflection in order to record "victory"? Wolverine, according to the Marvel U, the Marvel directory, and several handbooks/citations throughout various Wolverine comics is considered to be Marvel's GREATEST hand to hand combatant. Only Captain America and obscure members of the X-Statix group rank as high on the level of fighting skills as Wolverine. This information is coming from the official Marvel website so trying to refute it by saying that Wolverine isn't one of the most-skilled members of the Marvel U is to fly in the face of the pre-established facts and is about as valid as claiming the earth is flat. So you can see why the idea of him coming in second place all the time is nothing short of obscene and a gross miscalculation of the character's abilities by Mark Millar. I mean, this guy should have destroyed the gorgon within 20 seconds. There is absolute nothing within the Gorgon's arsenal of powers that enables him to be able to withstand being eviscerated by both sets of Wolverine's claws. Twice. How the Hell was he still standing after Wolverine scored the first shot? Never mind that. He was able to fully function after both Wolverine and Elektra impaled him with eight blades. I understand that Gorgon is a zombie now, but those generic ninjas pack the survival talent of your average mentally-impaired gopher, and they were apparently raised from the dead the same way the Gorgon was. By the way, it's impossible for Gorgon to have a healing factor since he essentially caused his own death via impalement of his own sword. Explain how he is able to even stand against Wolverine. Explain how Wolverine is able to take on Ogun and Silver Samurai yet is horrible out-classed and defeated by someone who is approximately 20 years old. Millar has to be the worst and unprofessional writer I have ever encountered on any platform, at any time. Here are some of the technical problems and story plot-holes of his work on Wolverine.

1) He portrays Wolverine as an amateur that is intimidated by Elektra of all people. The original wolverine stood up against the Hulk and yet managed to hold his own. He's clearly not intimated of someone like the Hulk so why is he intimidated by a walking panty & bra advertisement. His inner dialogue along with various other noticeable conversations depicts him as an insecure grunt that was released from the army approximately six months ago. Whenever I'm reading these issues, I'm thinking of some 30-year-old who just finished up in Iraq. Wolverine is supposed to sound a hell of a lot tougher than this. He doesn't even need to breathe to do the tasks that Millar had him blundering with. Plus, he doesn't like to use any sort of materials other than his claws. So prepping him with tech is highly uncharacteristic.

2) As mentioned before Wolverine loses virtually every important battle in the issue. This does little for his character and makes him look like a clawed goon packing your average street-level knowledge of martial arts.

3) The worst thing about this is the fact that it is an Elektra advertisement. I mean, she completely overshadows Wolverine throughout the run, and Millar recently stated on his own message board that she would make Wolverine her bitch. I mean, after all, she can catch bullets and turn invisible, right? It seems like Millar used his run of Wolverine in order to place Elektra on the top of the proverbial heap.


4) The second worst thing about this is the deception involved. We were promised that Wolverine was going to "kick ass all over the Marvel U." We never got that. We got the exact opposite. Millar totally lied about what he was going to write, and deceived fans into buying something that has degraded the character in the worst way since he had his adamantium ripped out back in the early nineties. This series is popular due to one reason and one reason only. Hype. People say this is so awesome yet take a look at it. It has so many plot-holes and inconsistencies I don't even know where to begin. Not only is the idea of the story bad, but the execution of crafting the story is totally flawed. It's as if Millar spent about five seconds considering the logic behind the various scenes and fight sequences. Several examples are as follows:

1) Wolverine being hit in the head by a five-pound weight, seeing stars and then falling onto a ninja-sword that is cocked for no apparent reason. How is it that Wolverine takes Spider-mans full punches directly to the face while cracking a smile yet somehow when a man with ordinary human strength hits him with something that weights five pounds and is constructed out a material weaker than the contents of his skeletal structure, he is rendered stunned to the point where he accidentally falls on a sharp object. Totally ridiculous.

2) Gorgon. There is no explanation given as to why Gorgon was still alive after his encounter with Elektra and Wolverine in Wolverine 30. I mean, the guy doesn't have a healing factor (As we have already seen in the issue where he impales himself with a sword and dies), and his resurrection by the hand should give him no more protection against mortal wounds than the average zombie-ninja. It just doesn't make sense and is a mistake I'm amazed was over-looked. Who the Hell was editing this thing anyway? I'm starting to seriously think that Millar didn't even give a damn about this whole arc and just cranked out whatever he wanted in the span of about five minutes for the entire run. He manipulated the audience and created his own fantasy in which Elektra is better than Wolverine, and (I'm assuming) pigs can fly and the temperature of Hell is equivalent to the deepest regions of Antarctica :mad:

At least this run had Wolverine kicking some a$$, though I think Wolverine has been treated very poorly by writers since the end of the 80's. It has been a sad 15 years since Wolverine has been written good.

[OMGDRAN]

I always thought the first 6 issues of the reluanch was pretty bad ass and had great wolvie moments.

[fishtaco]

At least this run had Wolverine kicking some a$$, though I think Wolverine has been treated very poorly by writers since the end of the 80's. It has been a sad 15 years since Wolverine has been written good.Wolverine in the 90's wasnt horrible IMO. Logan centered stories werent the best, but I dont think they were awful. As of this decade, Wolverine has become a joke.

[Titan Slade]

Wolverine in the 90's wasnt horrible IMO. Logan centered stories werent the best, but I dont think they were awful. As of this decade, Wolverine has become a joke.

Oh, I agree with this. While the 90's were bad to Wolverine, the first 5 years of the 21st century have been worse. Wolverine flat worked best as a character when he had no heavily revelaed past, was just Logan, was the best at what he did, had adamantium claw implants, had no sidekicks, was not the worlds greatest detective, drank beer and smoked, had a sex life, and did not ket his a$$ kicked regularly by normal human women. And the sad thing is even though Wolverine has been used and abused by writers over the last 15 years, half the other X-Men have been treated the same or worse by writers. The last decade or more has been real bad to the X-Men :( .

[scouse mouse]

Mark Millar's run was an absolute disgrace to Wolverine. He didn't manage to score a single on-panel victory while fighting one on one. He lost to Elektra, Dare Devil, Mr. Fantastic (of all bloody folks), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, and Captain America. Some of those were not one on one, but I think you get my point. He did manage to take down Havoc and Beast, and Northstar by complete accident. Oh, and also, a Shark. I mean, Wolverine does nothing but act like Elektra's bitch throughout the whole ordeal and the latter comes across as being the dominant character of the series. I'm disgusted with this complete waste of cash.

How it is that Wolverine is the best there is at what he does when he needs to use someone's reflection in order to record "victory"? Wolverine, according to the Marvel U, the Marvel directory, and several handbooks/citations throughout various Wolverine comics is considered to be Marvel's GREATEST hand to hand combatant. Only Captain America and obscure members of the X-Statix group rank as high on the level of fighting skills as Wolverine. This information is coming from the official Marvel website so trying to refute it by saying that Wolverine isn't one of the most-skilled members of the Marvel U is to fly in the face of the pre-established facts and is about as valid as claiming the earth is flat. So you can see why the idea of him coming in second place all the time is nothing short of obscene and a gross miscalculation of the character's abilities by Mark Millar. I mean, this guy should have destroyed the gorgon within 20 seconds. There is absolute nothing within the Gorgon's arsenal of powers that enables him to be able to withstand being eviscerated by both sets of Wolverine's claws. Twice. How the Hell was he still standing after Wolverine scored the first shot? Never mind that. He was able to fully function after both Wolverine and Elektra impaled him with eight blades. I understand that Gorgon is a zombie now, but those generic ninjas pack the survival talent of your average mentally-impaired gopher, and they were apparently raised from the dead the same way the Gorgon was. By the way, it's impossible for Gorgon to have a healing factor since he essentially caused his own death via impalement of his own sword. Explain how he is able to even stand against Wolverine. Explain how Wolverine is able to take on Ogun and Silver Samurai yet is horrible out-classed and defeated by someone who is approximately 20 years old. Millar has to be the worst and unprofessional writer I have ever encountered on any platform, at any time. Here are some of the technical problems and story plot-holes of his work on Wolverine.

1) He portrays Wolverine as an amateur that is intimidated by Elektra of all people. The original wolverine stood up against the Hulk and yet managed to hold his own. He's clearly not intimated of someone like the Hulk so why is he intimidated by a walking panty & bra advertisement. His inner dialogue along with various other noticeable conversations depicts him as an insecure grunt that was released from the army approximately six months ago. Whenever I'm reading these issues, I'm thinking of some 30-year-old who just finished up in Iraq. Wolverine is supposed to sound a hell of a lot tougher than this. He doesn't even need to breathe to do the tasks that Millar had him blundering with. Plus, he doesn't like to use any sort of materials other than his claws. So prepping him with tech is highly uncharacteristic.

2) As mentioned before Wolverine loses virtually every important battle in the issue. This does little for his character and makes him look like a clawed goon packing your average street-level knowledge of martial arts.

3) The worst thing about this is the fact that it is an Elektra advertisement. I mean, she completely overshadows Wolverine throughout the run, and Millar recently stated on his own message board that she would make Wolverine her bitch. I mean, after all, she can catch bullets and turn invisible, right? It seems like Millar used his run of Wolverine in order to place Elektra on the top of the proverbial heap.


4) The second worst thing about this is the deception involved. We were promised that Wolverine was going to "kick ass all over the Marvel U." We never got that. We got the exact opposite. Millar totally lied about what he was going to write, and deceived fans into buying something that has degraded the character in the worst way since he had his adamantium ripped out back in the early nineties. This series is popular due to one reason and one reason only. Hype. People say this is so awesome yet take a look at it. It has so many plot-holes and inconsistencies I don't even know where to begin. Not only is the idea of the story bad, but the execution of crafting the story is totally flawed. It's as if Millar spent about five seconds considering the logic behind the various scenes and fight sequences. Several examples are as follows:

1) Wolverine being hit in the head by a five-pound weight, seeing stars and then falling onto a ninja-sword that is cocked for no apparent reason. How is it that Wolverine takes Spider-mans full punches directly to the face while cracking a smile yet somehow when a man with ordinary human strength hits him with something that weights five pounds and is constructed out a material weaker than the contents of his skeletal structure, he is rendered stunned to the point where he accidentally falls on a sharp object. Totally ridiculous.

2) Gorgon. There is no explanation given as to why Gorgon was still alive after his encounter with Elektra and Wolverine in Wolverine 30. I mean, the guy doesn't have a healing factor (As we have already seen in the issue where he impales himself with a sword and dies), and his resurrection by the hand should give him no more protection against mortal wounds than the average zombie-ninja. It just doesn't make sense and is a mistake I'm amazed was over-looked. Who the Hell was editing this thing anyway? I'm starting to seriously think that Millar didn't even give a damn about this whole arc and just cranked out whatever he wanted in the span of about five minutes for the entire run. He manipulated the audience and created his own fantasy in which Elektra is better than Wolverine, and (I'm assuming) pigs can fly and the temperature of Hell is equivalent to the deepest regions of Antarctica :mad:

I have read this little rant before on Buzzscope and Millar world, you dont also go by the name of dreg do you?

[Cowlander]

Geesh do people need to quote the whole post? I'm not mad about it but man thats alot.

This issue ended good for me. And I'll definitely pick up both trades now. While the pbvious thing is to say Wolvie pulled a "clash of the titans". He really did a " Thundercat". Claw shield + reflection assist for the win. I think it could of been done better but for that I think it would have needed to be longer. So I'm fine with the ending.

I'm really glad to see(unlike others sadly) that wolvie actually has to struggle to fight someone. I cant stand the invincible badass who everyone(even freakin MAGNETO) jobs for. So it was good to see him struggle and then come out on top. Instead rehashing one of his catchphrases then gutting someone.

I wish Millar was staying on for more. He works for me on this and Ultimates.

[The Real Wolverine]

No. I have posted however on Buzzscope under an abbreviated form of the name I use here. If you check recently, I am logged there under “The Real Wolvie”. I am aware of Dreg's rants, and he posts similar complaints. As for Millarworld, Dreg is not the only one who has voiced such grievances on that message board. I mean, the flaws of this book are so obscenely obvious; I'm not surprised you have me confused with someone else.

Wolverine was actually being treated rather well in the first portion of this decade. I remember when he was fighting well against the Wendigo and Mauvis in a three-way brawl and managed to hold his own rather impressively. He eventually got hammered when Mauvis absorbed the strength of the Windigo and essentially became twice as powerful. Bloodsport totally established Wolverine as one of Marvel's elite features. I liked how Wolverine defeated Mr. I also liked how he came across as being the "best there is" defeating foes with ease on numerous occasions. All was well before Rucka jumped onboard and degraded Wolverine by morphing him into an over-emotional wuss.

If you ask me, Wolverine's biggest problem right now is over-exposure. He's featured in way too many books with way too many authors, and subsequently, he's bound to look rather inferior in more instances than not. I mean, they have to dub is role down a bit so that he can fit in on a team. It's the same with Spider-man. I mean, what the Hell has Spider-man done in New Avengers besides get his arm broken? He did nothing against the Wrecker save webbing him up after Luke Cage, Wolverine, and Spider-woman defeated him. Sadly enough, Wolverine scoring a cheap shot on the Wrecker while the latter was too busy popping one over Spider-woman is the best that we’ve seen out of the old Canuck in over a year.

On a side note, whatever happened to Wolverine sounding and looking like a total badass veteran who’s been around a long time? I felt that this feature was an integral portion in Wolverine’s character and made him seem a lot of tougher. I haven’t heard him say “rookie, claw city”, or anything of the like in a while. It would also be nice to see him wear his old trench coat that makes him look like a 1930’s detective. *Sigh* It seems like with the way things are going, we are bound to see Wolverine growing a foot and sporting a “goatee” in order to appeal to the younger generation. Oh wait…never mind.

[Doom Hammer]

I have a complaint about your argument, and it's a matter of simple math.

1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2.

Somewhere, the pattern fails. ;)

[The Real Wolverine]

I have a complaint about your argument, and it's a matter of simple math.

1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2.

Somewhere, the pattern fails. ;)


I'm counting paragraphs up to four and then starting over as so that those who disagree may follow along easier. Since I'm assuming that those who actually enjoyed Mark Millar's run cannot count to five, I felt this format most suitable. :D

No, but really I was just being lazy and decided to follow a completely unsuitable format. Sorry about that. I actually should have started a whole new section but I'm a rebel so there! FIGHT THE SYSTEM!

[fishtaco]

had no sidekicks, Well, Wolverine still rocked when he had Jubilee as his sidekick. Otherwise, I agree. :)

[Beast]

To: 'The Real Wolverine'

What you seem to fail to realize my friend, is that is one of Wolverine's purposes. The fact that he has to get his ass handed to him, to prove the situation is dangerous. All writers do it, just so Wolvie can come back and triumph later on. It's been going on since he was first introduced, it's part of what he's the best at doing. ;) :D

[The Lucky One]

Reposting here something I was pointing out in X-Cres:

It's not one of his purposes, it's his whole purpose. Okay, he was originally created to give the Hulk someone to fight for a month, but as soon as he joined the X-Men, that was the purpose- Wolverine gets his ass kicked to give the audience a laugh. And then later on, Wolverine gets his ass kicked to show how persistent and never-say-die he is. And even later still, Wolverine gets his ass kicked to show how badass the villain of the month is.

Let's face it, the character exists to take ass beatings. It's time to finally accept that.

Deal with it.

-D

[The Real Wolverine]

Geesh do people need to quote the whole post? I'm not mad about it but man thats alot.

This issue ended good for me. And I'll definitely pick up both trades now. While the pbvious thing is to say Wolvie pulled a "clash of the titans". He really did a " Thundercat". Claw shield + reflection assist for the win. I think it could of been done better but for that I think it would have needed to be longer. So I'm fine with the ending.

I'm really glad to see(unlike others sadly) that wolvie actually has to struggle to fight someone. I cant stand the invincible badass who everyone(even freakin MAGNETO) jobs for. So it was good to see him struggle and then come out on top. Instead rehashing one of his catchphrases then gutting someone.


I wish Millar was staying on for more. He works for me on this and Ultimates.

Okay, look, I agree that Wolverine cannot defeat Magneto, but how exactly is happening to house reflective objects in your forearms coming out on top when someone has beaten you to a pulp? Struggling is one thing, being totally over-powered by virtually every character you face and looking like an amature while you're doing it is another. I mean, what could be more insulting that Wolverine needing an army of ninja's to lose a fight to Daredevil?

I personally will stop reading Wolverine if the next writer doesn't have the character win some serious fights. I mean, who did Wolverine defeat besides the Hornet - which wasn't even on-panel - and a shark?

[The Real Wolverine]

To: 'The Real Wolverine'

What you seem to fail to realize my friend, is that is one of Wolverine's purposes. The fact that he has to get his ass handed to him, to prove the situation is dangerous. All writers do it, just so Wolvie can come back and triumph later on. It's been going on since he was first introduced, it's part of what he's the best at doing. ;) :D


Yes, but you see, Mark Millar began doing that, but then opted out in favour of making Elektra look like the supreme badass of the book. I mean, the first time Wolverine got thrashed by the Gorgon was totally cool. I already mentioned that when he lost to the suped-up Windigo, it was actually enjoyable. But this? What's this? This is Wolverine getting his ass kicked by EVERYONE he fights. I mean, right out of the gate, he loses to Elektra. I thought Mark was trying to establish that Wolverine was the "world's most dangerous living weapon"? And so he does this by having Wolverine lose a fight to a woman? Yeah. I'm totally convinced Wolverine is the best there is now.

I'm not saying he should have destroyed the Gorgon. I'm saying that the fight between him and Wolverine should have been more even-sided and that there should have been some kind of explanation as to why the Gorgon can withstand the punishment of Wolverine's claws. In other words, it would have been nice to see Wolverine win ONE fight for a change.

[Beast]

It's your opinion, but frankly I see Elektra coming out on top in a one on one battle. It's not like he has enhanced strength, agility, etc. Frankly his adamantium laced skeletal structure should slow him down quite a bit due to it's weight. All he really has going for him is the claws and healing factor, so of course he gets his ass kicked alot. Like 'The Lucky One' said, that's his whole purpose.... pretty much always has been. Always liked him more as the guy who took a licking and kept on ticking, instead of the unstoppable badass that heals the second he gets hurt.

[Titan Slade]

It's your opinion, but frankly I see Elektra coming out on top in a one on one battle. It's not like he has enhanced strength, agility, etc. Frankly his adamantium laced skeletal structure should slow him down quite a bit due to it's weight. All he really has going for him is the claws and healing factor, so of course he gets his ass kicked alot. Like 'The Lucky One' said, that's his whole purpose.... pretty much always has been. Always liked him more as the guy who took a licking and kept on ticking, instead of the unstoppable badass that heals the second he gets hurt.

Read this www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/w/wolverine/.htm ,and tell me if you thing Electra(a normal human woman) would really stand a chance against Wolverine.

[The Real Wolverine]

Ummm...personally, I think you should check into a characters' ability before you determine what that character can/cannot do. As you will see if you click on the link that Titan provided, Wolverine's biography gives him the edge in strength and fighting skills over Elektra. In fact, I bet you didn't know there are only two characters in the Marvel.com catalogue right now with the maximum ranking for fighting skills. Those two are Wolverine and Captain America. There are various sources such as the most recent Wolverine handbook that state Wolverine has mastered virtually every form of combat on the planet. That gives him an edge over Captain America considering that the latter has only mastered Judo and American style boxing. Wolverine is a Samurai warrior who was trained by the unbeatable warrior/ninjitsu master, Ogun. It should be worthy to mention that Wolverine also killed Ogun. If Wolverine can kill Ogun, he can kill Gorgon and certainly has no trouble with someone of Elektra's caliber who only ranks a six out of seven in terms of fighting skills. Wolverine ranks a perfect seven out of seven and as I mentioned is the only popular character aside from Captain America to hold this ranking in the current Marvel.com catalogue. (There are members of the obscure Statix-x group but I'm not even sure how many are even aware of their existence, so it's hardly relevant to even mention them.)

As far as the adamantium goes, Wolverine instantly regenerates from muscle damage tissue which means that he would have immediately gained the muscle-mass necessary in order to move with the skeleton. Spider-man, I believe once complemented him on his speed as well have various other well-established characters. So that means that the skeleton certainly doesn't slow him down enough render his enhanced speed useless. You will notice I said enhanced speed and not super-human speed. It's wrong for you, or a writer like Mark Millar to just come along and suddenly decide that a character no longer possesses his or her pre-established abilities. It would be as if someone just decided that Spider-man no longer had a spider-sense. It just wouldn't work and would show the writers poor ability to handle his assigned task. IE: Writing Wolverine as Elektra's lost puppy instead of as the cocky, arrogant, wild warrior he is.

I would also like to add that if you use some common sense, you can easily see that no one would bother with Wolverine if he was the guy who always got his ass kicked. I understand that may have happened more than a few times, but the fact is that Wolverine kicking ass instead of getting raped by virtually everyone in the Marvel U sells. Marvel is going to want to keep him that way if they want to keep one of their main meal-tickets functional. They want to make money, so eventually; they will give in to the demands of their audience. It’s simple business. Wolverine has become one of Marvel’s best-sellers because of his badass reputation he got when Chris Claremont and Frank Millar got a hold of the character in the late 1980’s. Feel free to check out those comics to see what Wolverine is really about.

[Beast]

I'm well aware of the character's abilities, and that website isn't a fair determination of the character's true abilities. Neither is some obscure state from an ages old game system. Stats mean jack and crap, and jack left town. The comic character is only as capable as he's scripted to be at the given moment. If you've read Uncanny since Giant Size X-Men #1, you'll notice that Wolverine always gets his ass kicked to show how dangerous the situation is, but always comes back to help save the day in the end. It wasn't until the 90's that he became the unstoppable badass that never gets hurt and heals the moment he's injured. It's been nice to see him actually suffering and needing time to heal again, ever as of late. Such as when Ord sliced his guts open and he had to hold them in until his flesh healed. Perfect example of someone who gets Wolverine.

[The Real Wolverine]

I'm well aware of the character's abilities, and that website isn't a fair determination of the character's true abilities. The comic character is only as capable as he's scripted to be at the given moment. If you've read Uncanny since Giant Size X-Men #1, you'll notice that Wolverine always gets his ass kicked to show how dangerous the situation is, but always comes back to help save the day in the end. It wasn't until the 90's that he became the unstoppable badass that never gets hurt and heals the moment he's injured. It's been nice to see him actually suffering and needing time to heal again, ever as of late. Such as when Ord sliced his guts open and he had to hold them in until his flesh healed. Perfect example of someone who gets Wolverine.


Okay, I agree with you on all of those points. The problem is that wasn't your original argument. You originally stated that "all Wolverine has going for him is his enhanced skeleton and healing factor". That is completely wrong, and as I have pointed out, he has mastered virtually every form of combat on the planet. Seriously, Wolverine doesn’t even need claws, a healing factor, or unbreakable skeleton to put Elektra down for good.

Wolverine being invincible is stupid. I don't have a problem with Wolverine losing a fight or getting hurt badly and taking time to heal. That's what Wolverine's all about. However, stating that Wolverine gets his ass kicked all the time because the adamantium slows him down is a weak, straw man of an argument. I totally agree with your most recent post. It would have been nice to see you defend your original argument though.

[Titan Slade]

The flat out truth of the matter is that Electra is a normal human woman with normal human reflexes, senses, and a womans strength, who is also a ninja and weapons master. While wolverine is a mutant with above normal human reflexes, senses, and strength, who is a master of darn near every form of combat over the last century and weapons master. The fight should not even be close even discounting Wolverine's adamantium laced bones and healing factor. Wolverine would win easily if written properly.

[The Lucky One]

Read this www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/w/wolverine/.htm ,and tell me if you thing Electra(a normal human woman) would really stand a chance against Wolverine.

Why not? Cyclops -- an above-average hand-to-hand combatant, nothing more -- has beaten him in a fight without using his optic blasts. When Storm was powerless, she was fully capable of beating Logan in a fight, and did. So why would you think Elektra -- another "normal" human woman -- would be incapable of it?

We have, have to get away from this idea of Logan as the unstoppable fighting machine. It has to stop. Logan is NOT a good fighter. He has ninja training, yes, he's trained in lots of different fighting styles, but he's not a particularly good fighter anyway because he forgets it the instant he walks into a fight, and just turns into a barroom scrapper. And gets beat down, same as always. Millar's story arc might have been fun, but it was ridiculous to think half the Marvel Universe would be going into hiding from a guy who loses hand-to-hand fights to Cyclops and Storm and Gambit sans powers.

Now, one more time, and don't make me get Uncle Nobs to point it out to you- Wolverine is NOT a good fighter. He is an experienced fighter who doesn't use any of his knowledge, and he pays for it. What people like about the character is NOT that he wins every fight he's in, it's that he constantly picks himself up after every loss and jumps right back into the fray- it's his persistence that people love about the character, not his fighting ability.

Now for God's sake, don't make me explain it again, okay?

-D

[Will.S]

I understand where The Real Wolverine is coming from with regards to him losing all those fights. I would have preferred for him to win some of them (and yeah the DD vs Wolverine fight was pretty lame at the end) but here are a few things to remember:

1) He was under the complete control of Hydra and the Dawn of the White Light. Wolverine wasn't using his brain freely so his skills weren't drawn from what he's learned. They were basically controlling Wolverine by remote control.

2) In most of the fights his intention was to kill the superheroes if not incapacitate them permanently. Wolverine can't kill those popular characters because they're being used elsewhere and that would end certain Marvel titles. Notice how he was only successful in killing Hornet as far as superheroes go?

3) Wolverine killed the Gorgon who in turn kicked Elektra's ass and took in massive damage that no other street level superhero could have survived from. His healing, stamina and claws gave him the final edge as well as using his brain.

[Cowlander]

Ok first off DD is a wayyy better match to beat Wolvie thanb youre gicing him credit for. Dont let the Bendis ultra melancholy dont show up in my own book DD fool. But I'm not going into that argument its for the VS boards.

The problem wih wolvie is that their really isnt any reason for him and Cap to be the only ones who are apparently that good. It simply editorial saying so when the cards came out. Where did Wolvie actually learn all these styles? Was it before or during Weap X. We know all about after Weap X, so it wasnt then. If it was during, then how come Sabes or any of the other subjects arent up there. Simply editors/writers having the notion that Wolvie must be the best. Its hurt the char for so long and its good to see writers not write him like that.

Like has been said one of his best traits isnt being unbeatable. Its the fact that he'll alwasy get up. Its his perserverence. We dont need to repeats of fights like him vs Shang Chi. Where he one in two panels. Thats a prime example of Wolvie being overplayed as an unbeatable badass.

Didnt Kitty beat Ogun?

[Titan Slade]

Here is the reality of it, although comic books are fantasy so reality does not apply in most cases. If I fight a guy that is over twice as strong and heavy as me with equal combat training, I will get my a$$ kicked every time. Wolverine is 3 to 4 times stronger than Electra, 3 to 4 times heavier than her, and has had many more years of martial arts training than her. Let's overlook his rappid healing powers and indestructable skeleton, and with the other qualities mentioned, she would never stand a chance if they were real people. But since it's a fictional comic book Electra, Cyclops, and many other inferior combatants, have beaten up on Wolverine because getting his a$$ whipped is part of his charm.

[The Real Wolverine]

If Wolverine gets beaten by Storm and Cyclops in fights, then there is a serious problem with the discrepancy between what Wolverine is advertised to do, and what he actually does. I have to say that ANY writer who would dare write such garbage is a complete idiot. Case closed. The fact is that the writers for Marvel often HATE this character and are in love with Cyclops or something so they write unrealistic garbage that makes no sense in order to gain some sense of satisfaction over a character that isn't even real. Having Wolverine lose in a hand-to-hand fight to Cyclops is equivalent to having the Hulk punched out by Batman. It's totally stupid attempt to make the character look foolish simply because of their dislike for him/her.

Anyone can see that when Wolverine is written properly, he's an unstoppable fighting juggernaut. That's what makes money, people. Wolverine getting his ass kicked may be entertaining for people who fantasize about Elektra, but there is a limitation to how much sales it will make. Bendis had Iron Man say something to Wolverine regarding his "potential". That may indicate that we may see Wolverine winning some big fights in New Avengers soon.

Anyone who says that Wolverine being written as an unstoppable fighting machine must stop obviously lacks common business sense. What makes you think people would care about a character that always gets beaten down because he has unbelievable martial arts training but forgets it as soon as he fights? That garbage can happen in X-men and various other comics but in Wolverine's own comic, expect him to be back in full force soon enough.

Wolverine may have been originally created as Hulk's enemy, but he has EVOLVED into samurai badass everyone loves. That's what Wolverine fans want, and that's what we'll get because Marvel likes to make money.

[The Lucky One]

If Wolverine gets beaten by Storm and Cyclops in fights, then there is a serious problem with the discrepancy between what Wolverine is advertised to do, and what he actually does. I have to say that ANY writer who would dare write such garbage is a complete idiot. Case closed.

You seriously just have no understanding of your favorite character whatsoever, do you?

Okay, I haven't the patience to get into it with you, so I'll make this brief. The man who had Logan as a human fighter who could be beaten by Cyclops and Storm was Chris Claremont. Everything anyone has ever done with the character since 1975 stems from his writing. He's the one who made Logan the "samurai badass" you crow about, and he's the one who recognized a very simple truth that continues to elude you- writing about a character who's unbeatable spiritually, who never gives up, is far more interesting than one who's unbeatable physically.

Okay, done troll baiting. Someone else can take over.

-D

[The Lucky One]

Having Wolverine lose in a hand-to-hand fight to Cyclops is equivalent to having the Hulk punched out by Batman.

...which has also happened.
:rolleyes:

-D

[Beast]

You seriously just have no understanding of your favorite character whatsoever, do you?

Okay, I haven't the patience to get into it with you, so I'll make this brief. The man who had Logan as a human fighter who could be beaten by Cyclops and Storm was Chris Claremont. Everything anyone has ever done with the character since 1975 stems from his writing. He's the one who made Logan the "samurai badass" you crow about, and he's the one who recognized a very simple truth that continues to elude you- writing about a character who's unbeatable spiritually, who never gives up, is far more interesting than one who's unbeatable physically.

Okay, done troll baiting. Someone else can take over.

-D
Bravo, bravo. You captured what I was going to say far better than I ever could. That said, I'm also dropping this discussion, as it's going nowhere. One would get more foreward momentum bashing one's skull against a brick wall. I have serious doubts whether 'The Real Wolverine' has actually read any of the decades of Wolverine's growth as a character since joining the X-Men.

[The Real Wolverine]

Why not? Cyclops -- an above-average hand-to-hand combatant, nothing more -- has beaten him in a fight without using his optic blasts. When Storm was powerless, she was fully capable of beating Logan in a fight, and did. So why would you think Elektra -- another "normal" human woman -- would be incapable of it?

We have, have to get away from this idea of Logan as the unstoppable fighting machine. It has to stop. Logan is NOT a good fighter. He has ninja training, yes, he's trained in lots of different fighting styles, but he's not a particularly good fighter anyway because he forgets it the instant he walks into a fight, and just turns into a barroom scrapper. And gets beat down, same as always. Millar's story arc might have been fun, but it was ridiculous to think half the Marvel Universe would be going into hiding from a guy who loses hand-to-hand fights to Cyclops and Storm and Gambit sans powers.

Now, one more time, and don't make me get Uncle Nobs to point it out to you- Wolverine is NOT a good fighter. He is an experienced fighter who doesn't use any of his knowledge, and he pays for it. What people like about the character is NOT that he wins every fight he's in, it's that he constantly picks himself up after every loss and jumps right back into the fray- it's his persistence that people love about the character, not his fighting ability.

Now for God's sake, don't make me explain it again, okay?

-D

You're basically stating that the earth is flat. Your argument is factually inconsistent and lacks logical validity. On one hand, you're saying that we should acknowledge previous comics that allegedly only used Wolverine as a means to determine the degree of danger within a given situation, and on the other you're saying comics that depict Wolverine as an unstoppable fighting machine are invalid. Since when can you have it both ways? It’s a two way street last time I checked. The fact is that in the comic book world, a writer has his/her interpretation of a certain character which in turn is portrayed in his/her writing of that character. It seems that there are times when Wolverine can be defeated by Elektra and others where the Hulk has a hard time defeating him. I would like to point out that the latter was the original depiction of Wolverine as can be seen in Incredible Hulk #181. I'm not saying that the original guy who appeared the Hulk is the character we should stick with, I'm saying that through the progression of Wolverine's storyline, we have developed more than just a whipping boy. To stand up and dismiss this based on emotion is to fly in the face of everything Wolverine has stood for since 1975. You're basically saying that since writers portray Wolverine as a disgruntled ape with the fighting skills of a five-year-old that we must all be forced to embrace such nonsense as reality. Unfortunately, for you, it's a double-edged sword. You can't say that handbooks mean nothing and comic continuity means everything for at any given moment Marvel could publish a comic with Wolverine defeating the Juggernaut, Magneto, and Omega Red simultaneously, and without using his claws. Using your logic, we would have to simply throw away our previously obtained knowledge of all of the characters in question and blindly accept that this is the way it is. You can't honestly tell me that you would accept that. With such a lack of rigidly in your logic, you advocate Wolverine can suddenly become and ice-princess with no viable explanation what-so-ever. How is it that you can say Wolverine is not a good fighter based on certain comic books yet you blindly disregard the comics that have Wolverine defeating Shang Chi and x-23 without using his claws? What about the Wolverine comics that have come out in the early 21st century which label Wolverine as a force of nature; an enigma that has mastered every form of combat on the planet? Are you going to dismiss that as well? What evidence do you have that Wolverine “forgets” his combat ability? The fact is, that in order to resolve the dichotomy of Wolverine's character (him being an unstoppable fighting slaughter house vs. him being Elektra's fan-boy wuss - you need to be grounded in some fundamentals of the character. These fundamentals are provided on the biography of Wolverine at the Marvel webpage. Case closed.

[Doom Hammer]

Okay, dude. Let's go with the theory that Wolveine is a capable fighting machine. Wolverine killed the Hand. THE HAND. Hundreds of ninjas. Thousands, even.

So, there's a couple thousand on-panel victories by Wolverine for you. In a single issue. On top of that he took out Beast, Havok, Northstar, Hornet, the Gorgon, the Thing, and he would've even killed the Human Torch. That's half the Fantastic Four. HALF! He took out a Hellicarrier-full of zombified super-villains. He took down a Hellicarrier full of fully armed SHIELD agents. He killed thousands more off-panel. He beat Elektra on the sinking Hellicarrier, if my memory serves me right. What more do you want?

Anyway, invincible characters are rarely interesting. That is why Marvel is infinitely better than DC.

[riotgear]

What evidence do you have that Wolverine “forgets” his combat ability? The fact is, that in order to resolve the dichotomy of Wolverine's character (him being an unstoppable fighting slaughter house vs. him being Elektra's fan-boy wuss - you need to be grounded in some fundamentals of the character. These fundamentals are provided on the biography of Wolverine at the Marvel webpage. Case closed.

Logan frequently "forgets" his fighting ability. You want proof? How about the original Wolverine limited series? He would rather pop his claws and brawl than temper his anger into a weapon itself. The fact is, he is unstoppable (sort of), he's just not unbeatable. He can be beaten in a fight repeatedly, the point is, he gets back up. He always does.

[The Real Wolverine]

You seriously just have no understanding of your favorite character whatsoever, do you?

Okay, I haven't the patience to get into it with you, so I'll make this brief. The man who had Logan as a human fighter who could be beaten by Cyclops and Storm was Chris Claremont. Everything anyone has ever done with the character since 1975 stems from his writing. He's the one who made Logan the "samurai badass" you crow about, and he's the one who recognized a very simple truth that continues to elude you- writing about a character who's unbeatable spiritually, who never gives up, is far more interesting than one who's unbeatable physically.

Okay, done troll baiting. Someone else can take over.

-D
Chris Claremont also recently depicted Wolverine teaching the rest of the X-men self-defense. In that issue, he got beaten by Bishop. Why? Because Wolverine's cocky and apparently reading books can give you proper insight into a character's moves. What you don't seem to realise is that you've defeated your own argument; Chris Claremont clearly stated in that Wolverine has the edge of skill over people like Storm, so for you to state that Wolverine "just is not a good fighter" with Chris Claremont as a backup just further defeats your own argument. Remember, you said Wolverine is not a very good fighter and then used Chris Claremont to justify your point. Chris flat out said that Wolverine is highly skilled and HE is the one who had the character teaching self-defense and taking out X-23 without using his claws. You will notice it was not Cyclops, not Storm, but WOLVERINE who accomplished both of those feats. Oh, and by the way; in case you haven’t noticed, Chris Claremont doesn’t pack the creative writing ability he’s famed for. Some of what he writes is totally ridiculous and I could care less what illogical crap he churns out. Just because it’s Chris Claremont, doesn’t mean he’s incapable of writing total nonsense. Just look at what he did with uncanny X-men having Mojo turn half the team into babies.

Since when did I ever claim that Wolverine is unbeatable physically? Apparently, you've developed a mental impairment which disables you from being able to read more than the first five lines of an argument. YOU were the one who originally claimed that Wolverine's only purpose in comics was to essentially become the X-men's whipping boy when clearly decades of Wolverine badassary have proven the contrary. I also pointed out that making straw-man arguments based on how a character is poorly written isn’t valid since there are plenty of writers (Such as Chris Claremont) who depict Wolverine with a half ounce of finesse and skill. Did you get that last point? Chris depicts Wolverine as being highly skilled. Do I need to school you again on that? You seem to be totally forgetting the point of your original argument and have shifted your focus from defending a very weak and unstable point of view to making me look like a fool. It isn't going to work. You and "Beasts greatest fan" can sit around all day conversing about a topic you clearly are clueless on.

[Cowlander]

And people wonder why comic fans have certain sterotypes.


The points been made several times so no need rehashing it. But on other things cant wait for both of these arcs to be released in trade.

[Fastballspecial]

Best Wolverine has been in years. He does what he is good at. So tired of him beating up on rednecks, cultists, and smugglers(Rucka's run). Finally someone who kicked the crap out of him. Love the scene in Fury's room. Would like to see Sean Chen back on Wolverine other then that. What a ride.

[Frank]

I`ve liked this book very much(except not enough blood lol) but I think Millar should not have given Wolverine a Hydra teleporter. With Ninja technic he could have beaten most heroes without it. Some people don`t realise how good and dangerous Logan is.

[Domo Goddess]

I finally got Wolverine #31. It wasn't bad.
I knew Gorgon was going to go the way he did !

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

I finally got Wolverine #31. It wasn't bad.
I knew Gorgon was going to go the way he did !

I just wish Wolverine had had a flying horse and a clockwork gold owl to leave with.:D

[Domo Goddess]

I just wish Wolverine had had a flying horse and a clockwork gold owl to leave with.:D

:D My thoughts exactly !

I didn't like Gorgon's ponytail.

[Will.S]

I kind of wish Gorgon stuck around to mess with the rest of the superhero community since they excecuted Baron Strucker. He would have made a really good replacement as the head of Hydra and Dawn of the White Light but eh, I guess he'll be a good foe for Wolverine to add to his victories.

[bagheera]

[QUOTE=Cowlander]And people wonder why comic fans have certain sterotypes.QUOTE]

LOL

Well, being such a big Wolvie fan myself, I feel compelled to weigh in.
Logan is indeed a master of all hand-to-hand combat and it is true that only he and Captain America get the highest ranking in this skill. SO, therefore it is very aggravating to see him limiting to leaping midair with claws extruded.

argh.

Recently I have had to overcome my Marvel girl prejudice and have begun reading BAtman and Superman. (I'm trying to work the use of superheroes into therapy concerning virtue, character and heroism for my teen patients.) I have been struck by how beautifully and creatively they draw their fight sequences, especially with Batman. It is clear that he is a superb hand-to-hand combatant. Wolvie deserves at least as good of treatment.

He is soooo much more than his claws and any writer who ignores that simply does not know the character and his maturation over the years. His anger and his claws no longer dictate his actions except for when he chooses to let it be so.

Give the guy some respect! :p

[Domo Goddess]

I thought Gorgon was a little too arrogant though when he said
how Hydra was invincible.

I was a bit disappointed when I didn't see him in his red suit.
Then again I had not read the previous issues !

[Cowlander]

[QUOTE=Cowlander]And people wonder why comic fans have certain sterotypes.QUOTE]

LOL

Well, being such a big Wolvie fan myself, I feel compelled to weigh in.
Logan is indeed a master of all hand-to-hand combat and it is true that only he and Captain America get the highest ranking in this skill. SO, therefore it is very aggravating to see him limiting to leaping midair with claws extruded.

argh.

Recently I have had to overcome my Marvel girl prejudice and have begun reading BAtman and Superman. (I'm trying to work the use of superheroes into therapy concerning virtue, character and heroism for my teen patients.) I have been struck by how beautifully and creatively they draw their fight sequences, especially with Batman. It is clear that he is a superb hand-to-hand combatant. Wolvie deserves at least as good of treatment.

He is soooo much more than his claws and any writer who ignores that simply does not know the character and his maturation over the years. His anger and his claws no longer dictate his actions except for when he chooses to let it be so.

Give the guy some respect! :p
Most writers seem to have no idea how to write martial arts in their books. Its fully a seperate aspect like sci fi or a western feel etc.

I really dont have any problem with wolvie being that good. The problem is the perception that wolvie and Cap are the ONLY ONES allowed to be that good. Alot of chars should be up just by the very nature of their chars and their histories. Shang Chi, Iron Fist and DD are at the top of that list. The histories nature of their chars speak volumes that they should be higher ranked in terms af ability.

People cant say Wolvie that good because of years of training. Cap being there also shows that it only because of an editorial decision. Cap( who I love) has NO REASON what so ever to be ranked that high. But hes Cap A so you gotta put him up there. Fans need to lose this or everytime Wolvie or caps struggles any little bit they'll yell out. "he doesnt understand the char, hed never lose lose to this guy" etc etc etc.

The thing that makes marvel comics stand out, is that their chars struggle their usually not godly. They face guys that SHOULD beat them. But they struggle persever and STILL WIN. That hs always been the hallmark. And its whats exactly been missing from Wolvie for years. This unstoppable killing machine was never a good idea and I'm glad millar didnt totally go with that.

[bagheera]

I agree that Wolvie's best feature is that he never, ever gives up, but still, he is a much better fighter than he is portrayed in recent years. I do think that Logan spent years studying the ways of the warrior precisely to discipline himself enough to be in control of the inner rage he lived with. For that reason, it is all the more important for writers to not lose track of this.

He has evolved far beyond the brawler.

[Frank]

Wolverine is a Kung Fu master. Mixed with a human Wolverine. With a the super-metal known adamantium for bones. Heal as fast as a drop of water on the floor. Can someone explain to why could not be as dangerous as The Juggernaut?

[The Lucky One]

Can someone explain to why could not be as dangerous as The Juggernaut?

Uh, well... because the Juggernaut's whole schtick, as originally conceived, is that he literally cannot be harmed or stopped by any physical force on earth. Period. As in, if you don't have mental powers, you can't stop him. Energy beams, fire, ice, freaky-ass claws... you can't hurt him, and you can't stop him. I'd say that makes him more dangerous than Wolverine, who (when written by his best writers) has always healed fast but been fairly easy to hurt, though not kill. To paraphrase:

Wolverine: can be put out of commission, but will heal and come back later
Juggernaut: can't be put out of commission even for a little while

-D

[Frank]

Uh, well... because the Juggernaut's whole schtick, as originally conceived, is that he literally cannot be harmed or stopped by any physical force on earth. Period. As in, if you don't have mental powers, you can't stop him. Energy beams, fire, ice, freaky-ass claws... you can't hurt him, and you can't stop him. I'd say that makes him more dangerous than Wolverine, who (when written by his best writers) has always healed fast but been fairly easy to hurt, though not kill. To paraphrase:

Wolverine: can be put out of commission, but will heal and come back later
Juggernaut: can't be put out of commission even for a little while

-D

I didn`t mean it litteraly, dude! :rolleyes: I know Juggy can`t be beat.

[Cowlander]

I didn`t mean it litteraly, dude! :rolleyes: I know Juggy can`t be beat.
To know this truth is to know LOVE.......

[Titan Slade]

Wolverine is a middle range powered marvel hero, and should easily beat "normal human" characters like Electra, Shang Chi, and Hawkeye, in a fight. And should easily be beaten by class 100 characters like Thor, Hercules, and Silver Surfer. Anybody else, he should be able to hang with in a fight.

[Frank]

Wolverine is a middle range powered marvel hero, and should easily beat "normal human" characters like Electra, Shang Chi, and Hawkeye, in a fight. And should easily be beaten by class 100 characters like Thor, Hercules, and Silver Surfer. Anybody else, he should be able to hang with in a fight.

Wolverine can hang with Hulk so he can fight with Hercules. Thor would probably squash Wolvie but Adamantium is an extradimentional supernatural metal that could easily pierce the Thunder God`s skin. The Wrecker sure felt his claws.

[The Lucky One]

Adamantium is an extradimentional supernatural metal

I'll grant you I'm not the world's foremost authority on Marvel comics, but I've never heard anything about adamantium being something other than a regular old metal alloy. Where's the extradimensional, supernatural stuff come from? Is that canon?

-D

[Frank]

I'll grant you I'm not the world's foremost authority on Marvel comics, but I've never heard anything about adamantium being something other than a regular old metal alloy. Where's the extradimensional, supernatural stuff come from? Is that canon?

-D

Yea some sort of mysterious energy of unknown origin served as ingredient when Scientist Anus Adamantium mold it into the new metal.

[Alpha to Omega]

Yea some sort of mysterious energy of unknown origin served as ingredient when Scientist Anus Adamantium mold it into the new metal.

I think your mistaking Captain America's shield with Adamantium. Cap's shield is made from a experimental steel alloy and Vibranium when an unknown third element entered the mix. Adamantium is an attempt to duplicate the process but there’s nothing extra-dimensional about it.

[Tobias March]

Will Marvel be producing a trade of Millar's run?

[Alpha to Omega]

Will Marvel be producing a trade of Millar's run?

Enemy of the State is already out in hardcover while the TPB comes out next month. Agent of SHIELD is coming out in November as another hardcover.

[Frank]

I think your mistaking Captain America's shield with Adamantium. Cap's shield is made from a experimental steel alloy and Vibranium when an unknown third element entered the mix. Adamantium is an attempt to duplicate the process but there’s nothing extra-dimensional about it.

I`m pretty there is. There was also story I recall where Wolvie kills a God-like creature because of the origin of the metal.

[Will.S]

Enemy of the State is already out in hardcover while the TPB comes out next month. Agent of SHIELD is coming out in November as another hardcover.
I'm going to wait it out for a full Hardcover of Millar's complete run. If that doesn't come out I guess I'll be buying both HC storyarcs but it'll be just as lame as the For Tomorrow and Hush two edition books.