Y'know, New Avengers isn't making a lick of sense so far...

[overcomebyfumes]

I was trying to explain what's going on in New Avengers to a friend of mine, and I discovered that I couldn't explain at all why things were occuring. It started seeming to me that things were happening without reasons.

For example: Why was Lycos broken out? Why was he so important? Since the Mutates are all superpowered, why couldn't they just break out Lycos on their own? Why did they need to hire Electro?

Why didn't the Raft have cells that automatically lock down when the power is turned off or surges? I think something like this is currently in use at most prisons today. The security features seem kinda flimsy for a super-villian prison.

Why, when faced with forty-odd villians escaping - an IMMEADIATE threat -, do the Avengers trek to the Savage Land instead of dealing with the major problem right in front of them first?

After they return, half the team is dealing with the Sentry, and the other half is FINALLY beginning to deal with some (well, one) of the escapees, but why is no-one worried about who within SHIELD is/was stockpiling criminals? (I think this was supposed to be the major revelation in issue six.) Shouldn't someone be looking into that? If you were, say, a comic-book writer, wouldn't this be something that warrents being at least mentioned in the next issue or two?

Why is Spider-Woman being set up to betray the team when we JUST HAD an arc about a woman betraying the team? Does Bendis have some kind of issues here?


And just as a side note - with all the inevitable breakouts from super-villian prisons that have occured over the years, and all the damage that has been done by super-powered crime (just imagine what insurance rates in MU-616 must be like), why haven't the citizens of the MU demanded the death penality for super-powered crime? Why even bother to lock these bastards up?

Just some questions I have. If anyone understands what's going on, please help me.

[tricksterpup]

all i have to say its the Chewbacca defense.
http://www.lazyfat.com/images/0330chewbacca.jpg


Chewbacca Defense
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The Chewbacca Defense is a satirical term for any legal strategy that seeks to overwhelm its audience with nonsensical arguments and thus confuse them into failing to take account of the opposing arguments and, ultimately, to reject them. It is thus a kind of logical fallacy, specifically a red herring fallacy and non sequitur similar to argumentum ad nauseam.

The term originated in the animated television series South Park. In its typically hyperbolic style, the show satirized the late attorney Johnnie Cochran's closing argument defending O.J. Simpson in his murder trial.


The term Chewbacca Defense is used on many weblogs and Internet discussion forums, especially ones that often feature legal issues. Slashdot is one such example, where the Chewbacca Defense has been occasionally mentioned in discussion of legal affairs where the poster feels the legal arguments make no sense (or alternatively where the poster feels the argument of another is similar to the Chewbacca Defense, e.g. [1]). As of August 2004 the most common targets on Slashdot were Microsoft, SCO, and the RIAA. (See [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]). See also Slashdot subculture. Still within the realm of the Internet, the Chewbacca Defense has been applied to political subjects, especially concerning public figures attempting to distract or confuse the public through the media. For example, commentators have accused the United States Department of Justice (see [7]), Michael Moore (see [8] and [9]), Dan Rather (see [10]), and Randy Cunningham (see [11]) of putting forward Chewbacca Defenses, of one form or another.

[Kevinroc]

1: They didn't want anybody to know what villain in particular that they wanted, so they broke everyone out.

2: Wouldn't Electro have burned out the generators too?

3: They wanted to know why the hell this breakout happened right away. Before these villains got too far in their scheme.

4: Someone will be. But right now, they want to know what the hell the deal is with this blonde guy who ripped Carnage in half.

5: To be fair, we don't know what Spider-Woman's deal is. And she's getting an ongoing written by Bendis. I hardly think she will be a villain.

6: A lot of those villains locked away were classified as dead. But this is the same reason why you don't see The Joker killed off. Too much story potential would be gone and you couldn't really license these characters out.

[pureclint]

Why, when faced with forty-odd villians escaping - an IMMEADIATE threat -, do the Avengers trek to the Savage Land instead of dealing with the major problem right in front of them first?

Well it was part of the threat and a lead they had, so they worked with what they had. Also, it is not like the escapees have big neon signs over them or that the Avengers will ignore every other crime to hunt them.

[The Shadow]

What Kevin and pureclint said.

[overcomebyfumes]

Well it was part of the threat and a lead they had, so they worked with what they had. Also, it is not like the escapees have big neon signs over them or that the Avengers will ignore every other crime to hunt them.

Ok, yeah, but now they have a lead on the SHIELD thing and they ignore that in favor of the Sentry (which can wait) and the escapees (which they've put off until now). It's weird the way the priorities have shifted. If they're going to follow the leads, why not follow them all the way?

[overcomebyfumes]

1: They didn't want anybody to know what villain in particular that they wanted, so they broke everyone out.

And both Wolverine and the Avengers were easily able to find out. Between all the witnessess and the Scorcher not being able to keep his mouth shut, that was some pretty sloppy planning there. I still don't quite understand (and maybe it's because I'm not an X-fan and I don't know too much about the Mutates) is what they were doing that they couldn't do without Lycos. What's the big deal with this guy. He was taken out pretty easily, so it's not like he's some kind of badass or something. They just wanted him out for random villany? Is he just a fun guy to be around? What?

2: Wouldn't Electro have burned out the generators too?

If I understand the way things work in prisons, the doors are designed to lock down if there's any power outtage, including the generators burning out. Although this may just be knowledge gleaned from reading bad fiction. Is there someone knowledgeable about this sort of thing in the house?

3: They wanted to know why the hell this breakout happened right away. Before these villains got too far in their scheme.

4: Someone will be. But right now, they want to know what the hell the deal is with this blonde guy who ripped Carnage in half.

And now they have evidence of corruption withing SHIELD, that they're ignoring while the villians go further in their scheme.

5: To be fair, we don't know what Spider-Woman's deal is. And she's getting an ongoing written by Bendis. I hardly think she will be a villain.

Fair enough...

6: A lot of those villains locked away were classified as dead. But this is the same reason why you don't see The Joker killed off. Too much story potential would be gone and you couldn't really license these characters out.

I know from a writer's point of view, it's bad to kill off a lot of villians, and boring to do so through protracted legal means (i.e. the death penality). But if 616 were the "real world", don't you think folks would be fed up by now with all the bank robberies and prison breaks? And having to rely on something as un-relable as super-powered vigilanties to save them? Many people, I'm sure, living under these conditions, realistically, would lobby for the death penality for villians.

Pax.

[Harold of the Rocks]

1. The mutates didn't want to be revealed in case the breakout failed. They only wanted Lycos. They didn't intend to cause a major prison riot. But if Electro botches the job? He's on his own. Lycos is important because of his knowledge of Weapon X. And that knowledge seemingly could aid them against the rogue S.H.I.E.L.D. faction enslaving mutates.

2. Electro can actually manipulate and control electronic systems. Says so in the Director's Cut description of him. Same way Uncle Fester can either blow a light bulb or just choose to light it. ;)

3. I mean, Sauron was the target of the breakout. Why? And as they go, why is there a S.H.I.E.L.D. base 'offline'? Seems that they need to know who the enemy is before they can effectively fight them.

4. Isn't it possible that someone who could make everyone 'forget' the Sentry (which they learned the very next day, btw in the Superpower Summit), is behind the S.H.I.E.L.D. cover-up? Maybe Reynolds himself is deluded into thinking he killed his wife, when he didn't. Someone that powerful needs to be brought into the light of day. Reed doesn't even remember him. It could very well be part of the greater conspiracy. If you are hiding super-powered villains from the outside world, and you could also hide Sentry (and seemingly decieve him), you might be the same force to reckon with. Seems that discovering the truth through the heroes (and maybe the Sentry) would be a lot more efficient than trying to hunt down a bunch of super-criminals who may or may not have any valuable information.

5. Who? Oh, Wanda. Gotcha. But who else had the powers to do what she did? (I know, some will argue she never had the powers to do what she did, but it is more plausible than any other Avengers altering reality, you must admit, right?) Bendis with trust issues with women? I dunno. Now, Jessica is a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, so her ties to them already adds intrigue, as well as the possibility that she has been in contact with some seedy underworld types. Or Fury. He being 'out of the S.H.I.E.L.D. loop' now (why? we don't know) could mean that he hired her to either watch S.H.I.E.L.D., watch these 'New Avengers', or both. She might be working for another good guy covertly, not just a bad guy as you are assuming.

6. Are these criminals wards of New York? Most of them committed crimes and were captured there. It is possible that they do not fall under any jurisdiction that can enforce a death penalty currently. Plus, with dudes like Purple Man, Controller, Mystique, and other 'master decievers' out there, pushing for a death penalty is like setting them up to kill innocents and enemies, given their powers. They would likely never get executed, while many innocents would be framed in the meantime. And I don't profess to understand MU law, but if the Raft is a S.H.I.E.L.D. facility, doesn't that make it international? Wouldn't that make a consensus on the death penalty overwhelmingly difficult to wash with the world community?

-- I generally agree with Kevinroc's post, but feel there are a few differences that made my post neccessary. To me. And only me. Ha! ;)

And I also second pureclint on the fact that the villains would be in hiding, laying low for awhile. Also ties into my point #4. Might be easier ways to get to the bottom of the mysteries...

Damn, I love this book! ;)

[Kevinroc]

And both Wolverine and the Avengers were easily able to find out. Between all the witnessess and the Scorcher not being able to keep his mouth shut, that was some pretty sloppy planning there. I still don't quite understand (and maybe it's because I'm not an X-fan and I don't know too much about the Mutates) is what they were doing that they couldn't do without Lycos. What's the big deal with this guy. He was taken out pretty easily, so it's not like he's some kind of badass or something. They just wanted him out for random villany? Is he just a fun guy to be around? What?

If you read the story, it was when the Avengers no longer existed and other teams were very busy with something or another. And they didn't expect anybody to get on it right away.

We also don't fully know what the plan was and why they needed Lykos. So I can't make a judgement on that.

If I understand the way things work in prisons, the doors are designed to lock down if there's any power outtage, including the generators burning out. Although this may just be knowledge gleaned from reading bad fiction. Is there someone knowledgeable about this sort of thing in the house?

Well, don't you think someone like Electro who just sucked up all the power out of New York City, busting all this stuff down wouldn't be a problem?

And now they have evidence of corruption withing SHIELD, that they're ignoring while the villians go further in their scheme.

And who within SHIELD is doing this?

I know from a writer's point of view, it's bad to kill off a lot of villians, and boring to do so through protracted legal means (i.e. the death penality). But if 616 were the "real world", don't you think folks would be fed up by now with all the bank robberies and prison breaks? And having to rely on something as un-relable as super-powered vigilanties to save them? Many people, I'm sure, living under these conditions, realistically, would lobby for the death penality for villians.

Pax.

No duh. The Joker should have been killed off a long time ago (using an example of a DC villain, but also a really famous one that pretty much everyone would know). There's no logical reason why The Joker is still alive. But he is because he's too popular a character and they very well-known.

Just don't think about this aspect of comics too hard or you can never enjoy them. You're smart enough to realize why writers don't off villians just like that.

[pureclint]

Ok, yeah, but now they have a lead on the SHIELD thing and they ignore that in favor of the Sentry (which can wait) and the escapees (which they've put off until now). It's weird the way the priorities have shifted. If they're going to follow the leads, why not follow them all the way?


How are they ignoring it? They have a hint that Shield has some bad seeds that is a big difference then having a valid lead. It would be illegal for the Avengers to kick in a Helicarrier and start reading every file, thats not how they work. They have no super detectives, but I sure they will be watching and looking for things as they go. Yet should they just ingore the whole Sentry thing considering his power levels?

The Avengers are not God, they deal with one or two things at a time. I am sure the Shield stuff will resurface.

Also, remember this all takes place over a very short amount of time, its not like they have been Avengers for months and months.

[The Shadow]

what Kevin and pureclint said... again.

[pureclint]

what Kevin and pureclint said... again.


Your a lot more agreable on the Marvel Forums! :cool:

[foxfire]

Yeah why supervillains arent killed by the justice system is one of the conventions that will be around as long as there are comics...

[The Shadow]

Your a lot more agreable on the Marvel Forums! :cool:
What pureclint... waitaminute...

LMAO :D

Go check out the Sins Past thread! :p

[Jake V]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread.

Thanks guys, for answering all the questions so I didn't have to.

[The Shadow]

Thanks guys, for answering all the questions so I didn't have to.
You owe us all $5.00 each.

PayPal is accepted! :p

[Red State Cap]

I was trying to explain what's going on in New Avengers to a friend of mine, and I discovered that I couldn't explain at all why things were occuring. It started seeming to me that things were happening without reasons.
For example: Why was Lycos broken out? Why was he so important? Since the Mutates are all superpowered, why couldn't they just break out Lycos on their own? Why did they need to hire Electro?
The book is written by Mr. Bendis.

Why didn't the Raft have cells that automatically lock down when the power is turned off or surges? I think something like this is currently in use at most prisons today. The security features seem kinda flimsy for a super-villian prison.
The book is written by Mr. Bendis.

Why, when faced with forty-odd villians escaping - an IMMEADIATE threat -, do the Avengers trek to the Savage Land instead of dealing with the major problem right in front of them first?
The book is written by Mr. Bendis.

After they return, half the team is dealing with the Sentry, and the other half is FINALLY beginning to deal with some (well, one) of the escapees, but why is no-one worried about who within SHIELD is/was stockpiling criminals? (I think this was supposed to be the major revelation in issue six.) Shouldn't someone be looking into that? If you were, say, a comic-book writer, wouldn't this be something that warrents being at least mentioned in the next issue or two?
The book is written by Mr. Bendis.

Why is Spider-Woman being set up to betray the team when we JUST HAD an arc about a woman betraying the team? Does Bendis have some kind of issues here?
The book is written by Mr. Bendis.

And just as a side note - with all the inevitable breakouts from super-villian prisons that have occured over the years, and all the damage that has been done by super-powered crime (just imagine what insurance rates in MU-616 must be like), why haven't the citizens of the MU demanded the death penality for super-powered crime? Why even bother to lock these bastards up?
The book is written by Mr. Bendis. Oh, wait. This story has happened about 50 times, so Mr. Bendis is not soley at fault here. I suppose the answer is that Marvel has never been all that big on logic in circumstances like this. I mean, how many times have Washington DC and New York City been levelled? Oh, of course no one ever got killed in those little events.

Any more questions?

RSC

[overcomebyfumes]

We also don't fully know what the plan was and why they needed Lykos. So I can't make a judgement on that.

That's what my friend was asking - why they needed Lykos. We don't know. It's a big crucial motivation thing that Bendis hasn't bothered to explicate.


Well, don't you think someone like Electro who just sucked up all the power out of New York City, busting all this stuff down wouldn't be a problem?

Well, that's what Bendis is asking us to assume. I'm running into some trouble believing that a SHIELD facility designed to contain super villians can't handle a power outage and a single villian trying to enter the facility to effect a breakout. Whoever designed the Raft seems to be awful incompetent. If 616 were the "real world", there'd be huge Congressional investigation going on about now... Heads would be rolling...

How are they ignoring it? They have a hint that Shield has some bad seeds that is a big difference then having a valid lead. It would be illegal for the Avengers to kick in a Helicarrier and start reading every file, thats not how they work. They have no super detectives, but I sure they will be watching and looking for things as they go. Yet should they just ingore the whole Sentry thing considering his power levels?

The Avengers are not God, they deal with one or two things at a time. I am sure the Shield stuff will resurface.

Also, remember this all takes place over a very short amount of time, its not like they have been Avengers for months and months.


When Bendis took over the Avengers, one of the things he said in interviews that he was going to fix was the lack of follow-through and misplaced priorities. From Disassembled - "We're all about the short term We're all about whatever is in front of us THAT second. And then we're on to the next thing. We think Jack-of-Hearts is dead. We leave him up in space. What do we know, right?"

Should they ignore the Sentry? No, but he shouldn't be a priority (they shouldn't know much about the Sentry's power levels given that for all they know he's a fictional character), nor should the Wrecker be a priority. From New Avengers number six (talking about the SHIELD corruption):

Luke Cage: "So What? We need to stop this right now. No games. Right now." ... "They already know we know something." Cap: "You're right." Tony: "They know we're the enemy now." Cap: "That's the thing. They know who we are. We don't know who they are."

The Avenger's priority should be the SHIELD corruption, but they aren't following through. No valid leads, you say? They have two BIG ones, and the proper course of action is so clear even Batman could see it.

Lead 1: Someone has been altering SHIELD files to make it seem as if fourteen living villians are dead.

Lead 2: Some of these fourteen villians are either escapees or may have been returned to their cells. (we, the reader, do not yet know who they are exactly)

Now, first thing I would do if I were an Avenger would be to locate at least one of these "dead" villians and see if they knew anything. That's step one. Step two would be for Tony, who has shown some success combing SHIELD files for clues, to keep doing that to see if he turns up anything else. Then THOSE new leads could be followed back, generating NEW leads that could be followed back, eventually to their source and the root of the mystery. If it was, y'know, a priority to do that sort of thing.

For a supposed crime writer, Bendis isn't actually doing a good job here with the mechanics of the crime story. Instead, I'm getting the feeling that the Sentry is a cool new toy that Bendis is playing with for his own amusement while the main plot of this story languishes. Bad Bendis! Go to lunch!

Pax.

[Kevinroc]

That's what my friend was asking - why they needed Lykos. We don't know. It's a big crucial motivation thing that Bendis hasn't bothered to explicate.

But the story behind it isn't completely over yet.

We don't know yet why they wanted him. Gotta be patient at this point.

Well, that's what Bendis is asking us to assume. I'm running into some trouble believing that a SHIELD facility designed to contain super villians can't handle a power outage and a single villian trying to enter the facility to effect a breakout. Whoever designed the Raft seems to be awful incompetent. If 616 were the "real world", there'd be huge Congressional investigation going on about now... Heads would be rolling...

Electro, who had all the electric power of New York City at the time. He overcharged it all.

When Bendis took over the Avengers, one of the things he said in interviews that he was going to fix was the lack of follow-through and misplaced priorities. From Disassembled - "We're all about the short term We're all about whatever is in front of us THAT second. And then we're on to the next thing. We think Jack-of-Hearts is dead. We leave him up in space. What do we know, right?"

Should they ignore the Sentry? No, but he shouldn't be a priority (they shouldn't know much about the Sentry's power levels given that for all they know he's a fictional character), nor should the Wrecker be a priority.

The Sentry ripped Carnage in half like a rag doll. I don't know about you, but I'd be worried about that guy.

As far as The Wrecker, that just shows they are moving to recapture the criminals that have escaped from prison. Bendis hasn't forgotten there are a ton of supervillains on the loose.

From New Avengers number six (talking about the SHIELD corruption):

Luke Cage: "So What? We need to stop this right now. No games. Right now." ... "They already know we know something." Cap: "You're right." Tony: "They know we're the enemy now." Cap: "That's the thing. They know who we are. We don't know who they are."

The Avenger's priority should be the SHIELD corruption, but they aren't following through. No valid leads, you say? They have two BIG ones, and the proper course of action is so clear even Batman could see it.

Who within SHIELD is doing this? And you don't think they aren't investigating this? The Sentry arc takes place the day after the Savage Land adventure, which was the day after the Prison breakout. In the title, the team has been assembled for all of like two or three days.

Lead 1: Someone has been altering SHIELD files to make it seem as if fourteen living villians are dead.

Lead 2: Some of these fourteen villians are either escapees or may have been returned to their cells. (we, the reader, do not yet know who they are exactly)

Now, first thing I would do if I were an Avenger would be to locate at least one of these "dead" villians and see if they knew anything. That's step one. Step two would be for Tony, who has shown some success combing SHIELD files for clues, to keep doing that to see if he turns up anything else. Then THOSE new leads could be followed back, generating NEW leads that could be followed back, eventually to their source and the root of the mystery. If it was, y'know, a priority to do that sort of thing.

This is why they went for Lykos first. To find out what the hell he knew. Since then, they captured The Wrecker (who can be a pretty big threat and has been known to sometimes showcase Thor power levels) and are currently investigating The Sentry in the couple of days they have been a group. It's not like the team has been together for six months and just plum forget about everything. They've only been a team for 2-3 days.

For a supposed crime writer, Bendis isn't actually doing a good job here with the mechanics of the crime story. Instead, I'm getting the feeling that the Sentry is a cool new toy that Bendis is playing with for his own amusement while the main plot of this story languishes. Bad Bendis! Go to lunch!

Pax.

Well, I'm giving Bendis the benefit of the doubt as the entire comic has taken place over like a 3 day period. Investigating massive conspiricies takes more than a weekend to solve.

[Jake V]

That's what my friend was asking - why they needed Lykos. We don't know. It's a big crucial motivation thing that Bendis hasn't bothered to explicate.
One thing that I don't think anyone has touched on so far is the theme of fate and chance. The idea that fate brought them together because they all happened to be there at the same time. The deal with Sauron isn't anything huge really, the mutates just wanted to spring their buddy. From this simple desire, Electro's simple job spiraled out of control, and led to much bigger things. At least that's what I got from the scene.


Well, that's what Bendis is asking us to assume. I'm running into some trouble believing that a SHIELD facility designed to contain super villians can't handle a power outage and a single villian trying to enter the facility to effect a breakout. Whoever designed the Raft seems to be awful incompetent. If 616 were the "real world", there'd be huge Congressional investigation going on about now... Heads would be rolling...
This is actually pretty easy. Electro can turn into electricity. He shut down the facility AND opened the cells while inside the controls at the same time. He can manipulate anything electrical while in electric form. Also, there IS a big investigation as to how this happened. Didn't you read #3?



When Bendis took over the Avengers, one of the things he said in interviews that he was going to fix was the lack of follow-through and misplaced priorities. From Disassembled - "We're all about the short term We're all about whatever is in front of us THAT second. And then we're on to the next thing. We think Jack-of-Hearts is dead. We leave him up in space. What do we know, right?"

Should they ignore the Sentry? No, but he shouldn't be a priority (they shouldn't know much about the Sentry's power levels given that for all they know he's a fictional character), nor should the Wrecker be a priority. From New Avengers number six (talking about the SHIELD corruption):

Luke Cage: "So What? We need to stop this right now. No games. Right now." ... "They already know we know something." Cap: "You're right." Tony: "They know we're the enemy now." Cap: "That's the thing. They know who we are. We don't know who they are."

The Avenger's priority should be the SHIELD corruption, but they aren't following through. No valid leads, you say? They have two BIG ones, and the proper course of action is so clear even Batman could see it.

Lead 1: Someone has been altering SHIELD files to make it seem as if fourteen living villians are dead.

Lead 2: Some of these fourteen villians are either escapees or may have been returned to their cells. (we, the reader, do not yet know who they are exactly)

Now, first thing I would do if I were an Avenger would be to locate at least one of these "dead" villians and see if they knew anything. That's step one. Step two would be for Tony, who has shown some success combing SHIELD files for clues, to keep doing that to see if he turns up anything else. Then THOSE new leads could be followed back, generating NEW leads that could be followed back, eventually to their source and the root of the mystery. If it was, y'know, a priority to do that sort of thing.

For a supposed crime writer, Bendis isn't actually doing a good job here with the mechanics of the crime story. Instead, I'm getting the feeling that the Sentry is a cool new toy that Bendis is playing with for his own amusement while the main plot of this story languishes. Bad Bendis! Go to lunch!

Pax.
I think one thing you're missing is the timing of it all. Iron Man seeking out the sentry and the fight with the wrecker happened literally the day after they were in the savage land. Tony says "it happened yesterday". Now, obviously they should be looking into the SHIELD corruption, but that doesn't change the fact that there are 46 supervillains on the loose that they feel a responsibility and obligation to capture. Added to that is the mystery of the Sentry. They know how powerful he is, and he could be a HUGE problem for the MU if they don't figure out what the deal with him is. I believe in #3 they literally say that they will deal with the Sentry after they figure out the reason for the breakout. He's this giant golden question mark that they simply can't ignore. Plus, they can't make a move on SHIELD without SHIELD knowing, and that's probably a can of worms they don't want to open up until the oppurtune moment.

[overcomebyfumes]

One thing that I don't think anyone has touched on so far is the theme of fate and chance. The idea that fate brought them together because they all happened to be there at the same time. The deal with Sauron isn't anything huge really, the mutates just wanted to spring their buddy. From this simple desire, Electro's simple job spiraled out of control, and led to much bigger things. At least that's what I got from the scene.



This is actually pretty easy. Electro can turn into electricity. He shut down the facility AND opened the cells while inside the controls at the same time. He can manipulate anything electrical while in electric form. Also, there IS a big investigation as to how this happened. Didn't you read #3?




I think one thing you're missing is the timing of it all. Iron Man seeking out the sentry and the fight with the wrecker happened literally the day after they were in the savage land. Tony says "it happened yesterday". Now, obviously they should be looking into the SHIELD corruption, but that doesn't change the fact that there are 46 supervillains on the loose that they feel a responsibility and obligation to capture. Added to that is the mystery of the Sentry. They know how powerful he is, and he could be a HUGE problem for the MU if they don't figure out what the deal with him is. I believe in #3 they literally say that they will deal with the Sentry after they figure out the reason for the breakout. He's this giant golden question mark that they simply can't ignore. Plus, they can't make a move on SHIELD without SHIELD knowing, and that's probably a can of worms they don't want to open up until the oppurtune moment.

Ok, somehow I missed the time compression. Since these things come out but every thirty days, it's pretty easy to miis the "happening the next day" thing. I'm still a little surprised that the SHIELD business hasn't at least been mentioned these last two issues.

As for Electro - he never should have gotten close enough to use his power. Adamantium bulkheads, heavily armed, insulated guards, SOMETHING should have gotten in his way. All too easy. Especially after the breakout from the Big House in She-Hulk, which actually was better thought out in terms of how to evade a prison's security features (even if it was, on the whole, ludicrous). Bah.

[Arrjay]

It's all Wanda's fault.

[Neolucifer]

If 616 were the "real world"

stop right there!!! it isnt :D .

As for Electro - he never should have gotten close enough to use his power. Adamantium bulkheads, heavily armed, insulated guards, SOMETHING should have gotten in his way. All too easy. Especially after the breakout from the Big House in She-Hulk, which actually was better thought out in terms of how to evade a prison's security features (even if it was, on the whole, ludicrous). Bah.

You do know that jailbreaks are a constant of comics ? along faking deaths , or simply not getting arrested and evading justice ... and that the Vault and the Arkham asylum are competing against each other in that area :D ?

I think that the problem is that you follow too much the lead of realism , but lets play along ...
Explain to me how the hell puny human guards even armed and brave enough to stand there , will resist the raw power of the whole New york City's electric power ??

You mention that she hulk jailbreak . then remember why in the first place they tried to use Pym's technology .. because they couldnt do much to prevent villains from escaping . At their best all they can do is prevent most inmates to get out , and most minor villains to forcefully get in . But how would they stop a big threat from getting in ?

Thats imo another of your "problem" , you maybe dont believe Electro is that much of a threat . Well truth be told there are far more deadly people out there ... however , even if it probably took him the best of his ability , it was still a very powerful strike upon the vault .

Its a stunt someone like Magneto could have pulled easily , and no vault guard could have stopped . I'd even say that they were more prone to be weak against that kind of attack given their amount of tech materials .

[jam37wcc]

You do realize that they are looking for more of these villains than you realize. Spider-Man has a mini-series out right now where he is dealing with about 10 or 12 of them. Also in Toxin's mini-series Spider-Man asks him to help with a few villains that broke out of the prison because he is to overwhlemed by what he has to deal with right now. So you see there is follow through.

Also they might not know Sentry's power levels but they don't know he is a good guy. He was locked up in the Raft with all the other villains for all they know he is a villain, so I would say he is a high priority right now. And they do know that he can fly and is powerful enough to take care of Carnage.

I hate when people need everything explained to them, I guess he should but two additional caption boxes per panel just so you know what is going on then book. Everything shouldn't have to be spelled out for you.

[Shellhead]

You do realize that they are looking for more of these villains than you realize. Spider-Man has a mini-series out right now where he is dealing with about 10 or 12 of them. Also in Toxin's mini-series Spider-Man asks him to help with a few villains that broke out of the prison because he is to overwhlemed by what he has to deal with right now. So you see there is follow through.

Also they might not know Sentry's power levels but they don't know he is a good guy. He was locked up in the Raft with all the other villains for all they know he is a villain, so I would say he is a high priority right now. And they do know that he can fly and is powerful enough to take care of Carnage.

I hate when people need everything explained to them, I guess he should but two additional caption boxes per panel just so you know what is going on then book. Everything shouldn't have to be spelled out for you.

If too many unaddressed issues distract the reader from the story, than the writer is doing something wrong.

[jam37wcc]

If too many unaddressed issues distract the reader from the story, than the writer is doing something wrong.

Well, he is doing nothing wrong imo. And if everything he wanted addressed was addressed it would take more than 8 issues to explain it all.
I personally like the idea of multiple plot lines hanging around, adds more to the story and connects them all a little better, instead of having story arcs that don't affect one another.

[tricksterpup]

I hate when people need everything explained to them, I guess he should but two additional caption boxes per panel just so you know what is going on then book. Everything shouldn't have to be spelled out for you.
When someone does need something explained to them this is a Sign of a Bad writer. It doesnt mean the reader is slow or stupid. Lets take example a very good movie, well everything you need to know is there in the movie, such as motivations of characters.
As a reader I should not need to read anything else to understand what is happening in the title that I am reading. This is one reason why big cross overs are frowned on by readers and alot of writers.

[Will.S]

When someone does need something explained to them this is a Sign of a Bad writer. It doesnt mean the reader is slow or stupid. Lets take example a very good movie, well everything you need to know is there in the movie, such as motivations of characters.
As a reader I should not need to read anything else to understand what is happening in the title that I am reading. This is one reason why big cross overs are frowned on by readers and alot of writers.
Are you talking about Spider-Man Breakout or New Avengers?

[tricksterpup]

Are you talking about Spider-Man Breakout or New Avengers?
New Avengers.

[Will.S]

New Avengers.
So like, what else would you have to read other than New Avengers to understand it?

I think the problem people have with the book is that Bendis is packing in alot of sub-plots and some are having problems keeping up. All the information is there though and the book lends itself well to re-readability instead of your standard action fluff that you'll read every once and a while. I don't see it as an example of bad writing when the writer has to address and establish several things first.

S.H.I.E.L.D.'s corruption certainly is a big priority for the Avengers but more of a long term problem that can't be hit with a charging all out assault so I'm sure Brian and crew will get to it in his own fashion. Bendis still has to put together the team with the last two additions being Sentry and Ronin.

[tricksterpup]

So like, what else would you have to read other than New Avengers to understand it?

I think the problem people have with the book is that Bendis is packing in alot of sub-plots and some are having problems keeping up. All the information is there though and the book lends itself well to re-readability instead of your standard action fluff that you'll read every once and a while. I don't see it as an example of bad writing when the writer has to address and establish several things first.

S.H.I.E.L.D.'s corruption certainly is a big priority for the Avengers but more of a long term problem that can't be hit with a charging all out assault so I'm sure Brian and crew will get to it in his own fashion. Bendis still has to put together the team with the last two additions being Sentry and Ronin.

I do agree with you on alot of these points, but still have a problem with Bendis's Avengers, I feel his characterzation is still very muddied. I find other writers doing the subplots much better than Bendis, Garth Ennis comes to mind as one of them.

As for the S.H.I.E.L.D's Corruption, Frank Tieri did a pretty good job on his book Weapon X. Actually, if I had a choice, I would rather see Frank Tieri write the New Avengers. :D

But I do not want to go into a war on my feelings of Bendis as a writer.

[Andy S.]

Does anybody else just not give a crap about the subplots going on?

This isn't a bad title, but I find the subplots more of a distraction than anything else. (I'm mostly referring to the Spider-woman/ Sheild/ Raft breakout thing)

[BlackKnight]

So like, what else would you have to read other than New Avengers to understand it?

I think the problem people have with the book is that Bendis is packing in alot of sub-plots and some are having problems keeping up. All the information is there though and the book lends itself well to re-readability instead of your standard action fluff that you'll read every once and a while. I don't see it as an example of bad writing when the writer has to address and establish several things first.

S.H.I.E.L.D.'s corruption certainly is a big priority for the Avengers but more of a long term problem that can't be hit with a charging all out assault so I'm sure Brian and crew will get to it in his own fashion. Bendis still has to put together the team with the last two additions being Sentry and Ronin.

You don't have to read other books to understand NA, you just have to read other books to finish up droped plot lines that where started in NA or Avengers: Disassembled. Spider-Man:Break-out is handling a droped plot line by Bendis, and the Hercules mini handled the droped plot line of dealing with the deaths of multiple Avengers in Dissassembled. This means if I want to continue to follow along on those plot lines I have to read other books.

Speaking of Bendis still having to finish putting the team together, this has to be the longest team assembly I have ever seen I mean what 13 issues to finally settle on the roster that we have been seeing pictures of since issue 1.
Sometimes patience is a virtue, but when it comes to a monthly comic have the readers wait for any type of resolution to the major plot points like the break-out and the shield issue, could and I stress could cost the comic readers.

I am enjoying the Sentry arc more then the Raft Arc, however I do feel that Bendis should pick up the pace.

[Jake V]

I think what he's doing is setting up a lot of different elements so he has a lot of stuff to draw on as the series progresses. This is one of the things that Chris Claremont got a lot of praise from when he did his extended Uncanny X-men run.

Furthermore, if you need any part of the book explained to you, you really aren't reading the whole thing. Everything I know about the book comes simply from the issues themselves. I'm not privy to any inside information, and I'm surely not a marvel history or character expert. I really can't say why its so easy for me to understand and difficult for others, but I suspect that some people just aren't reading the entire book. All the answers are in the book itself.

[BlackKnight]

I think what he's doing is setting up a lot of different elements so he has a lot of stuff to draw on as the series progresses. This is one of the things that Chris Claremont got a lot of praise from when he did his extended Uncanny X-men run.

Furthermore, if you need any part of the book explained to you, you really aren't reading the whole thing. Everything I know about the book comes simply from the issues themselves. I'm not privy to any inside information, and I'm surely not a marvel history or character expert. I really can't say why its so easy for me to understand and difficult for others, but I suspect that some people just aren't reading the entire book. All the answers are in the book itself.

Once again, I don't think anyone needs to have what happened in the book explained.
The difference between Claremont was that he had a major plot arc that finished in 1-4 issues depending (obviously the Brood was longer), and at the same time built up side plots that he then made major plot lines later.

Now I think that is great, I find the Spiderwoman sub plot very interesting and the Yelvona sub plot good as well. What I don't like is that I was that the Raft arc major plot line (I assume we can agree it was suppose to be the breakout and the formation of the team) has not been completed in any way in 6 issues(sorry but finding out that the mutates hired Electro to rescue Sauron, if that is to be considered the climax of the first six issues is lame in my opinion). Instead we have to read SpiderMan:Breakout to get some of the Raft story being continued and we have to wait until issue 12 to finish up putting the team together. It is SLOW and there are droped plot lines (not continuing plot lines) but simple droped. (like the corrupt shield group, the breakout (although I will give you that they fought the wrecker.) the Avengers that died in Disassembled (had to be picked up in another book).

[The Shadow]

This means if I want to continue to follow along on those plot lines I have to read other books.
I'm not a fan of this type of storytelling... I hated it with Identity Crisis where all the answers were in other books and I hate it here now.

Plots started in BOOK A should be wrapped up in BOOK A. I shouldn't beeds books C,D and E to get the whole picture.

But from a sales standpoint it works.

[The Shadow]

The difference between Claremont was that he had a major plot arc that finished in 1-4 issues depending (obviously the Brood was longer), and at the same time built up side plots that he then made major plot lines later.
Claremont may take a while... but ALL of his sub plots were dealt with IN Uncanny X-Men.

I like what Bendis is trying (and I like new Avengers overall) but I hate having to buy stuff I wasn't gonna get to find out the answers.

[Nightcrawler]

Its only been 8 issues. Gees, do want NO mysteries/surprises in the book?

[Jake V]

Once again, I don't think anyone needs to have what happened in the book explained.
The difference between Claremont was that he had a major plot arc that finished in 1-4 issues depending (obviously the Brood was longer), and at the same time built up side plots that he then made major plot lines later.
First, look at the begining of the thread. Dude clearly needed to have things explained to him. He didn't even realize the timeframe of events even though things were clearly stated in the comic. Second, I'd say that the Sentry arc is more important than the breakout arc and it's being resolved in 4 issues. The Ronin arc is gonna be 3 issues, the Spider-Woman arc will be 2. This is progression from where I stand.

Now I think that is great, I find the Spiderwoman sub plot very interesting and the Yelvona sub plot good as well. What I don't like is that I was that the Raft arc major plot line (I assume we can agree it was suppose to be the breakout and the formation of the team) has not been completed in any way in 6 issues(sorry but finding out that the mutates hired Electro to rescue Sauron, if that is to be considered the climax of the first six issues is lame in my opinion). Instead we have to read SpiderMan:Breakout to get some of the Raft story being continued and we have to wait until issue 12 to finish up putting the team together. It is SLOW and there are droped plot lines (not continuing plot lines) but simple droped. (like the corrupt shield group, the breakout (although I will give you that they fought the wrecker.) the Avengers that died in Disassembled (had to be picked up in another book).
I dont think the point of the first arc was the breakout itself. It was merely the impetus for Cap and Iron Man to decide to reform the Avengers. The complaint that it's taking 13 issues to form the team sounds unfounded to me because the membership is supposed to be fluid. Who's to say that the team won't continue to gain members as their story progresses? Who's to say that Ronin will be their last new member? If they pick up a new member on issue 17 will the complaint change that it took 17 issues to form the team? Maybe my lack of issues with the book comes from the fact that I view it as just a longform fluid story about the characters as opposed to a locked-in collection of plots.

I saw this same sort of confusion develop from Grant Morrison's New X-Men. People were constantly distracted by the sheer number of ideas he threw out, and somehow expected that each idea necessitated a story. I think that comic book readers have become conditioned to expect that an idea equals a story and that simple ideas like a mutant community or a new interpretation of the weapon X concept are required to be resolved instead of allowed to become new pieces of a continuing mythos.

Back to the point though, I don't see any plots that have been dropped, but instead they have been pushed to the side in order for other plots to develop. I think that the corrupt SHIELD plot shouldn't be resolved until much later. Save that for issue #30 or something, no need to resolve it now. The breakout idea is a continuing plot that is basically the form that upcoming plots will follow. The Ronin arc will not only introduce Ronin, but will feature the team fighting another escaped supervillain, Silver Samurai. The Sentry arc featured not only the reintroduction of the Sentry, but the team capturing yet another escaped supervillain, the Wrecker. The entire conceit of the team is that they are formed with the simple purpose of capturing all the villains that escaped from the raft. What will be really interesting is seeing what the team will do once they catch all the escapees. Will they disband once their purpose is fulfilled? Will a new threat keep them together? That kind of stuff.

[BlackKnight]

First, look at the begining of the thread. Dude clearly needed to have things explained to him. He didn't even realize the timeframe of events even though things were clearly stated in the comic. Second, I'd say that the Sentry arc is more important than the breakout arc and it's being resolved in 4 issues. The Ronin arc is gonna be 3 issues, the Spider-Woman arc will be 2. This is progression from where I stand.


I dont think the point of the first arc was the breakout itself. It was merely the impetus for Cap and Iron Man to decide to reform the Avengers. The complaint that it's taking 13 issues to form the team sounds unfounded to me because the membership is supposed to be fluid. Who's to say that the team won't continue to gain members as their story progresses? Who's to say that Ronin will be their last new member? If they pick up a new member on issue 17 will the complaint change that it took 17 issues to form the team? Maybe my lack of issues with the book comes from the fact that I view it as just a longform fluid story about the characters as opposed to a locked-in collection of plots.

I saw this same sort of confusion develop from Grant Morrison's New X-Men. People were constantly distracted by the sheer number of ideas he threw out, and somehow expected that each idea necessitated a story. I think that comic book readers have become conditioned to expect that an idea equals a story and that simple ideas like a mutant community or a new interpretation of the weapon X concept are required to be resolved instead of allowed to become new pieces of a continuing mythos.

Back to the point though, I don't see any plots that have been dropped, but instead they have been pushed to the side in order for other plots to develop. I think that the corrupt SHIELD plot shouldn't be resolved until much later. Save that for issue #30 or something, no need to resolve it now. The breakout idea is a continuing plot that is basically the form that upcoming plots will follow. The Ronin arc will not only introduce Ronin, but will feature the team fighting another escaped supervillain, Silver Samurai. The Sentry arc featured not only the reintroduction of the Sentry, but the team capturing yet another escaped supervillain, the Wrecker. The entire conceit of the team is that they are formed with the simple purpose of capturing all the villains that escaped from the raft. What will be really interesting is seeing what the team will do once they catch all the escapees. Will they disband once their purpose is fulfilled? Will a new threat keep them together? That kind of stuff.

Well let me introduce you to two droped plot points (Breakout and the Avengers that died in Disassembled)... There now you know some..

Second, I don't mind if the Shield subplot takes a will to develop, but you don't just drop it, you build it up with a few panels a comic. Look at Siminsons Thor, where he slow built up to the major climax fight with Surtur starting by showing just one panel of Sutur forging Twilight and then growing from there, will still have stories that had beginings, middles and ends at the same time...
Novel idea that.

Finally, you know who the the NA team is supposed to be, they have been on covers and variant covers over and over, Ronin appeared on issue 7's cover, so I submit the team is not done. And any excuse you make up for why it is not, is just that an excuse.

Also it is horrible writing to make a reader if they want to finish a plot line to have to go read a totally different book.
I agree with shadow it is great for sales, but that does not make it good writing.

[Jake V]

Well let me introduce you to two droped plot points (Breakout and the Avengers that died in Disassembled)... There now you know some..
What are you talking about? They just captured the Wrecker and they'll be going after Silver Samurai next. Capturing the escaped supervillains is the conceit for the entire series. The dead Avengers don't need to be followed up on because they're dead. This isn't the same comic as the old Avengers.

That is like calling Colossus' death in X-men a continuing plotline and then getting pissed at the X-books for not following up on it after he died.

Second, I don't mind if the Shield subplot takes a will to develop, but you don't just drop it, you build it up with a few panels a comic. Look at Siminsons Thor, where he slow built up to the major climax fight with Surtur starting by showing just one panel of Sutur forging Twilight and then growing from there, will still have stories that had beginings, middles and ends at the same time...
Novel idea that.
It hasn't been dropped. Pay attention to the timeframe. NA #7 and #8 takes place literally the day after #6. If they immediately went after SHIELD in #7 and 8 you'd be complaining that they didn't follow up on the Sentry plot.

Finally, you know who the the NA team is supposed to be, they have been on covers and variant covers over and over, Ronin appeared on issue 7's cover, so I submit the team is not done. And any excuse you make up for why it is not, is just that an excuse.
I don't get the big deal about this. It is actually a pretty smart idea when you think about it. It's free hype for Ronin. Like the solicits say, people have been wondering who Ronin is for 2 years. You can't buy hype like that.

Also it is horrible writing to make a reader if they want to finish a plot line to have to go read a totally different book.
I agree with shadow it is great for sales, but that does not make it good writing.
Y'know, if the Spider-Man: Breakout mini actually RESOLVED the breakout story, you might have something that resembled a point, but it doesn't. As I said before, the Breakout is the conceit for the whole New Avengers series, and will continue to fuel the plots for the rest of the run. The cool thing about the breakout is that it also provides fuel for OTHER series.

[tricksterpup]

First, look at the begining of the thread. Dude clearly needed to have things explained to him. He didn't even realize the timeframe of events even though things were clearly stated in the comic. Second, I'd say that the Sentry arc is more important than the breakout arc and it's being resolved in 4 issues. The Ronin arc is gonna be 3 issues, the Spider-Woman arc will be 2. This is progression from where I stand.

First, I think OCF was trying to do was explain things to a friend of his who didn't know who the New Avengers were or what was going on in the book. As he tried to explain things to him, he found himself realizing the dropped plots and how long it is for the plots to finally come through. Give this a try this weekend, explain to a friend who doesnt read NA the entire plot and see what happens.

But I will say this, I love a good mystery in a comic, my favorite by far was the original Hobgoblin Story line, damn that was a sweet story, another was the Xorn/Magneto storyline (which i bet is retconned after House of M). We have a mystery right now on who is RONIN but the thing is, he hasnt appeared in the comic yet. This is all internet bull hockey. As BlackKnight stated, this is going pretty slow, it is taking forever for us to see the entire team that was promised to us before the book even came out. I do understand the fluidness of writing, building up suspense and introducing new ideas. But giving us a character that will not appear in the comic book a year later is a bit over hype. Let me know of the new guy 4 months before he is introduced, ok?

I personally would not compare Bendis' s NA to Morrison's X-men. There were some real ground breaking ideas in that book. But I will say, some of his ideas was not for everyone, as is Bendis's New Avengers.

[pureclint]

What pureclint... waitaminute...

LMAO :D

Go check out the Sins Past thread! :p

Well your more agreble with me over her even if you dont like Ho Stacy!

I dont buy any Spider-man titles currently and I really do not care for JMS so I jsut stay away from it.


S.H.I.E.L.D.'s corruption certainly is a big priority for the Avengers but more of a long term problem that can't be hit with a charging all out assault so I'm sure Brian and crew will get to it in his own fashion. Bendis still has to put together the team with the last two additions being Sentry and Ronin.

I agree with BlackKnight I dislike that they hyped a certain team and that we have to wait 15 issues for it to really come together, that should have been handled in arc ONE.

I do fully agree with you that the SHield thing has to be handled differently then the normal Avengers foe. As I said they can not just kick in the door and start beating ass.


I think one thing you're missing is the timing of it all. Iron Man seeking out the sentry and the fight with the wrecker happened literally the day after they were in the savage land. Tony says "it happened yesterday".


Thats why I told him it took place over a very short period of time not months nad months. Thanks for putting a quantifiable time line to it.


As to the outbreak and it not being handled in New Avengers completly, I still like the shared universe feel. I hate it when NYC gets toasted by Xorneto and no Avengers even notice or mention it, and then poof it is fixed in a day. I personally never expected EVERY bad guy who escaped the Raft to be caught by the Avengers exculisvly, there are way to many Heores in NYC for that to happen and some were bound to bump into X bad guy.

I DO think Bendis needs to have Spider-man at the very least MENTION that he has caught a few and had a pal (Toxin) help with a few other.

[Jake V]

First, I think OCF was trying to do was explain things to a friend of his who didn't know who the New Avengers were or what was going on in the book. As he tried to explain things to him, he found himself realizing the dropped plots and how long it is for the plots to finally come through. Give this a try this weekend, explain to a friend who doesnt read NA the entire plot and see what happens.
Try explaining the plot of the first season of Lost, or just the first 4 seasons of the X-Files to someone who knows nothing about it. There are TONS of unresolved things that you'll want to know more about when hearing about it for the first time. The unresolved plots are SUPPOSED to be unresolved at this moment because that's how mystery is created. You can't expect it to be presented to you all at once.

[tricksterpup]

I DO think Bendis needs to have Spider-man at the very least MENTION that he has caught a few and had a pal (Toxin) help with a few other.
Yes, I do like the shared universe, and if this is done it would be nice but I am sure it will not be done, but who knows it could happen in issue 18.. ;)

But I guess, what I do not like about breakout, was they had to do a special spidy mini to wrap it up.

[tricksterpup]

Try explaining the plot of the first season of Lost, or just the first 4 seasons of the X-Files to someone who knows nothing about it. There are TONS of unresolved things that you'll want to know more about when hearing about it for the first time. The unresolved plots are SUPPOSED to be unresolved at this moment because that's how mystery is created. You can't expect it to be presented to you all at once.
I agree with you here, but one of the things I dislike about the series is that it is stretched out and over hyped to much. If this was done by Stan, or by any old timer, these stories would have been finished in 2 issues, still with all the mystery and side plots. I feel that this book is just being stretched to be stretched.
And to let you know, no, I do not by this book, I am like Shellhead and I read it at the store. I do not care for the story telling structure of the book. IMO there are better books and writers out there.

[Jake V]

I agree with you here, but one of the things I dislike about the series is that it is stretched out and over hyped to much. If this was done by Stan, or by any old timer, these stories would have been finished in 2 issues, still with all the mystery and side plots. I feel that this book is just being stretched to be stretched.
And to let you know, no, I do not by this book, I am like Shellhead and I read it at the store. I do not care for the story telling structure of the book. IMO there are better books and writers out there.
Getting it done in 2 issues doesn't make it any better. It just makes it supercompressed and removes any cool character moments, all the atmosphere, all the characterization, and any oppurtunities for striking art and interesting panel design.

I could do the star wars trilogy (old and new) on stage in 15 minutes. Doesn't mean that it would be good.

[BlackKnight]

Getting it done in 2 issues doesn't make it any better. It just makes it supercompressed and removes any cool character moments, all the atmosphere, all the characterization, and any oppurtunities for striking art and interesting panel design.

I could do the star wars trilogy (old and new) on stage in 15 minutes. Doesn't mean that it would be good.

And decompressing it to the point where it takes 13 issues to reslove the team does not make it better either, it adds a bunch of talking heads panels that have no charater development, I mean how many times do we have to see the same panel of Agent Hill, etc...

As for the dead Avengers from disassembled plotline that you so happly completly misunderstood, I mean that it took a Hercules Mini series to close up that plot line, where it should have been done in the Avengers finale issue or flashback in NA, Bendis is very fond of flashback..

Once again I state that the many times that subplots have been used, (Claremonts X-men, Simionson's Thor) they both develop the subplot in each issue, be it a panel or a page, it is still shown and moved forward. There is nothing in two issues of NA, I don't care if it is one day or one hundred. That is imaterial.

Also if you had read my posts, you would have noticed that I mentioned the wrecker. And when are they going after the Silver Sameria will that be in a different book, or is it the Ronin arc that is not for another two issues, and if it is, where did you here it, because it is not in the blurbs for the books.

And finally what was accomplished in the Raft Arc
1. Was the team put togehter (meaning the whole team including Sentry and Ronin) NO..
2. Did we find out what was really going on with the breakout? NO
3. Did we find out that electro was actually hired by the Mutates to get Sauron back. Yes and it was amazingly lame as a climax to the first arc of a comic?

And explain the first arc to a friend would take me about 5 mins, kinda sad for six issues.

[The Shadow]

Getting it done in 2 issues doesn't make it any better.

And decompressing it to the point where it takes 13 issues to reslove the team does not make it better either
So Bendis needs to find a happy medium.

As easy as that sounds it's gonna be impossible to please EVERYONE. All Bendis can do is tell his stories (I think they've been good so far) and hope the art is good too (LOVE McNiven!)

[The Shadow]

Claremonts X-men... develop the subplot in each issue, be it a panel or a page
That's why I don't get the hate for Claremont. Sure his dialogue is a bit hokey... but he tells the stories in a sequential manner and HAS sub-plots unlike a lot of "hero meets villain. Hero and villain fight. Villain goes to jail. Repeat often" comics.

I do think Bendis is setting up a lot of sib-plots and I think the ones he's got going are gonna be good! Is he taking too long? THAT becomes a matter of opinion. I don't think so and he is laying ground work for upcoming issues... I think that is a good writer. A bad writer has a series of mini series' within an ongoing. Bendis isn't doing that and neither does Claremont. Now if we could only get Simonson back on Thor... :D

[overcomebyfumes]

First, look at the begining of the thread. Dude clearly needed to have things explained to him. He didn't even realize the timeframe of events even though things were clearly stated in the comic.

Hey, cut me a little slack. A friend of mine was asking me questions I couldn't answer right away, and I figured I'd pose here for some help. The "does'nt make a lick of sense" was my friend Dennis' comment when I summerized the plot so far for him... And yes, I somehow missed the time compression. Have you never missed or overlooked something? Jeez.

[overcomebyfumes]

Back to the jailbreak cliche'...



You do know that jailbreaks are a constant of comics ? along faking deaths , or simply not getting arrested and evading justice ... and that the Vault and the Arkham asylum are competing against each other in that area :D ?

I think that the problem is that you follow too much the lead of realism , but lets play along ...
Explain to me how the hell puny human guards even armed and brave enough to stand there , will resist the raw power of the whole New york City's electric power ??

You mention that she hulk jailbreak . then remember why in the first place they tried to use Pym's technology .. because they couldnt do much to prevent villains from escaping . At their best all they can do is prevent most inmates to get out , and most minor villains to forcefully get in . But how would they stop a big threat from getting in ?

Thats imo another of your "problem" , you maybe dont believe Electro is that much of a threat . Well truth be told there are far more deadly people out there ... however , even if it probably took him the best of his ability , it was still a very powerful strike upon the vault .

just a quick aside here... for someone as potentially powerful as Electro can be (and was shown to be earlier), I was seriously disappointed with how quickly the Avengers too him out in issue four. Anyway...

Its a stunt someone like Magneto could have pulled easily , and no vault guard could have stopped . I'd even say that they were more prone to be weak against that kind of attack given their amount of tech materials .

I do realize these kind of jailbreaks are a staple of the medium, and an old and tired one. If I was designing a jail for super villians - and you would think that after ALL the jail breaks over ALL these years, folks would learn from their mistakes - first, I would NOT house ALL the super-villians in the same wing. That's a MAJOR security problem. Spread them out. That right there goes a long way towards preventing a mass break of this kind.

How would I have prevented Electro from getting in? Why does the Raft have no sniper towers? That's another absent security feature. As far as I know, Electro's not bullet proof, and a basic feature like a sniper tower or six goes a long way as a first line of defense.

Bulkheads that drop and stay down in the event of a power failure, and cannot be lifted without a secure over-ride code. Bendis has used the conceit of "power-dampeners" in "Powers". They haven't seen much play in the MU, but with SHIELD technology... if the Hellfire club can have had shackles that remove mutant powers TWENTY YEARS AGO, why not whole power draining prison?

The Raft, as presented, is very poorly designed for it's purported fuction. I mean, sure, breakouts will happen in comics, but they don't need to be this easy.

Pax.

[Will.S]

You don't have to read other books to understand NA, you just have to read other books to finish up droped plot lines that where started in NA or Avengers: Disassembled. Spider-Man:Break-out is handling a droped plot line by Bendis, and the Hercules mini handled the droped plot line of dealing with the deaths of multiple Avengers in Dissassembled. This means if I want to continue to follow along on those plot lines I have to read other books.
The thing with Spider-Man: Breakout is that it doesn't finish any dropped plotlines from NA, it is merely an offshoot out of what happened. The story pretty much revolves on the U-Foes and Crossfire and his gang, it's alot like Villains United actually in showing factions set against each other.

At the end of the mini, Spidey defeats some of the villains with the help of Cap and Iron Man so while it's still a Avenger-related business it isn't required reading in the slightest. They even recapped the entire breakout in the beginning of the series from the moment Spidey's arm was snapped (heh). It'll take probably a while for the team to fully accomplish their main mission of detaining all the villains but I'm sure it'll be resolved in New Avengers.

I agree with BlackKnight I dislike that they hyped a certain team and that we have to wait 15 issues for it to really come together, that should have been handled in arc ONE.I'm not really ecstatic about having the team fully form with more issues than necessary myself, I don't think a team should ever take that long to fully form. I would just double size the Sentry stuff and get to the Ronin arc quick since that is the biggest mystery next to what happens to the Sentry but I guess that's just how Bendis works.

[StoneGold]

And explain the first arc to a friend would take me about 5 mins, kinda sad for six issues.
Then you really suck at explaining. Serious, name a comic story, if I can't sum it up in, say, three sentences, then it is probably horribly convoluted and completly not worth reading.

"Electro breaks Sauron out of prison, and inadvertantly free a couple dozen villains. The New Avengers unite, stop the riot, and track down Sauron, while finding out something dirty is going on in SHIELD."

Now at the same time, I can do this with, say, Busiek's Ultron story.

"Ultron shows back up and pretty much nukes a country and terrorizes his extended Avengers "family." Then the Avengers kick his ass.

Or how about the first Galactus story.
"Space God wants to eat the earth. But then Space Jesus gets a Space Chubby from Alicia, and fights him off, long enough for Johnny to threaten him with a Cosmic Lightswitch, but gets exiled to earth in the process."

[Dark Soul # 7]

About the escaped villains. Most of them were smart enough to leave New York and a bunch of them stayed which you can read about in the Spider-man: Breakout mini, great story.

[RocketBoy]

Try explaining the plot of the first season of Lost, or just the first 4 seasons of the X-Files to someone who knows nothing about it.
Are you seriously comparing eight 22 page comic issues to what would be 23 hours worth of story for Lost, and 88 hours worth of story for the first 4 seasons of X-Files?

Anyway, obviously there is no "Right" way to tell a story, and I accept that NA must be doing something for a lot of you all for you to dig it. But it does nothing for me. I just feel that it is all sub-plot, and no Plot. And that's just not a type of writing I like; part of the reason I don't watch daytime soaps. The closest thing I can find to an actual plot is "Who is Sentry?" which was introduced in the first couple of issues, but I haven't decided on that for sure. And eight issues later, I honestly don't even care. And I really don't care to stick around for another five issues just to find out that Ronin is really Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Elektra, insertyournamehere or whoever.

Seriously, if it takes this long just to get a team origin story, how many issues will it take to get an actuall story done after the team's all together?

[BlackKnight]

Then you really suck at explaining. Serious, name a comic story, if I can't sum it up in, say, three sentences, then it is probably horribly convoluted and completly not worth reading.

"Electro breaks Sauron out of prison, and inadvertantly free a couple dozen villains. The New Avengers unite, stop the riot, and track down Sauron, while finding out something dirty is going on in SHIELD."

Now at the same time, I can do this with, say, Busiek's Ultron story.

"Ultron shows back up and pretty much nukes a country and terrorizes his extended Avengers "family." Then the Avengers kick his ass.

Or how about the first Galactus story.
"Space God wants to eat the earth. But then Space Jesus gets a Space Chubby from Alicia, and fights him off, long enough for Johnny to threaten him with a Cosmic Lightswitch, but gets exiled to earth in the process."

Amazing, I was trying to be nice and say that something a little more then that happened in over 136 pages of comic... My bad.. :rolleyes:

[tricksterpup]

Or how about the first Galactus story.
"Space God wants to eat the earth. But then Space Jesus gets a Space Chubby from Alicia, and fights him off, long enough for Johnny to threaten him with a Cosmic Lightswitch, but gets exiled to earth in the process."
OMG I never got it until now.. :rolleyes:

SG: most plots should be explained in 3 sentences or less, atleast that is how the pitch should be for the story.

and as you stated here, and you really think about it.

"Electro breaks Sauron out of prison, and inadvertantly free a couple dozen villains. The New Avengers unite, stop the riot, and track down Sauron, while finding out something dirty is going on in SHIELD."

Did this really need 6 issues?

[BlackKnight]

That's why I don't get the hate for Claremont. Sure his dialogue is a bit hokey... but he tells the stories in a sequential manner and HAS sub-plots unlike a lot of "hero meets villain. Hero and villain fight. Villain goes to jail. Repeat often" comics.

I do think Bendis is setting up a lot of sib-plots and I think the ones he's got going are gonna be good! Is he taking too long? THAT becomes a matter of opinion. I don't think so and he is laying ground work for upcoming issues... I think that is a good writer. A bad writer has a series of mini series' within an ongoing. Bendis isn't doing that and neither does Claremont. Now if we could only get Simonson back on Thor... :D

I totally agree with Sub-plots I love them, as long as they are kept up, if you drop one for issues and then try and come back to it, it feels disjointed, at least to me.
The first arc for me felt incomplete (issue 6 felt like the middle of the arc not the end). So far I have enjoyed the main story of the Sentry arc, I just wish Bendis would keep up on his sub plots better.
Yes I would love Simonson back on Thor... :D

[tricksterpup]

That's why I don't get the hate for Claremont. Sure his dialogue is a bit hokey... but he tells the stories in a sequential manner and HAS sub-plots unlike a lot of "hero meets villain. Hero and villain fight. Villain goes to jail. Repeat often" comics.

I do think Bendis is setting up a lot of sib-plots and I think the ones he's got going are gonna be good! Is he taking too long? THAT becomes a matter of opinion. I don't think so and he is laying ground work for upcoming issues... I think that is a good writer. A bad writer has a series of mini series' within an ongoing. Bendis isn't doing that and neither does Claremont. Now if we could only get Simonson back on Thor... :D
You know, I have to say, Claremont did drop his share of plots though.. does anyone remember the plot of Team America training with the new mutants? Ah, maybe after the House of M they will return.

But Damn, imagine if it was Walt doing a new Thor book? Wow.. more than a few of us would be in heaven.

[pureclint]

I just wish Bendis would keep up on his sub plots better.


To be fair you can not say he has not kept up with the sub-plots, yet. New Avengers is only a handful of issues into the run and just about everything has taken place over a few days. Now if after 30 or 50 issues and Bendis goes bye bye and he never comes back to Shield or whatever then complain away.

[BlackKnight]

To be fair you can not say he has not kept up with the sub-plots, yet. New Avengers is only a handful of issues into the run and just about everything has taken place over a few days. Now if after 30 or 50 issues and Bendis goes bye bye and he never comes back to Shield or whatever then complain away.

Ok, again with the example of Simonson's Thor, some of Thor's plots lasted several issues that were only days yet the sub-plot o sutur just kept going. It is not how long the comic time is it is how many comics that have come out. If we see nothing of the Shield subplot or the dead villians subplot in the whole Sentry arc then that is too long in my opinion.
But this is just my opinion and we are all have them. :)

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I love the New Avengers...it totally makes sense to me and I love how Bendis has taken his sweet time to create and sustain certain misteries.
That's why I buy the book every month and I will keep doing it.
:)

[Neolucifer]

just a quick aside here... for someone as potentially powerful as Electro can be (and was shown to be earlier), I was seriously disappointed with how quickly the Avengers too him out in issue four. Anyway...


The magic word is "potentially" Electro only displayed such amount of power because he drained the whole city's power . I didnt any any huge electric facility near him , and in his usual state spiderman do beat him , even if he do feel quite a lot of pain from it . I personally think it would have been incredibly dumb and irrealistic (and i'm talking about the MU's reality and usual food's chain) to have afoe spiderman can beat alone , best the avengers .



I do realize these kind of jailbreaks are a staple of the medium, and an old and tired one. If I was designing a jail for super villians - and you would think that after ALL the jail breaks over ALL these years, folks would learn from their mistakes - first, I would NOT house ALL the super-villians in the same wing. That's a MAJOR security problem. Spread them out. That right there goes a long way towards preventing a mass break of this kind.

How would I have prevented Electro from getting in? Why does the Raft have no sniper towers? That's another absent security feature. As far as I know, Electro's not bullet proof, and a basic feature like a sniper tower or six goes a long way as a first line of defense.

Bulkheads that drop and stay down in the event of a power failure, and cannot be lifted without a secure over-ride code. Bendis has used the conceit of "power-dampeners" in "Powers". They haven't seen much play in the MU, but with SHIELD technology... if the Hellfire club can have had shackles that remove mutant powers TWENTY YEARS AGO, why not whole power draining prison?

The Raft, as presented, is very poorly designed for it's purported fuction. I mean, sure, breakouts will happen in comics, but they don't need to be this easy.

Of course reality would be different , but why the hell do you keep wishing for such realist stuff ? With such amount of realism 70% of most heroes feats and powers would never work , spidey and his so called spider agility would have been screwed by gravity etc etc ... not to mention the nightmare of having every villains usually living in new york ,getting moved all over USA or the world ,and their usual super heroes foes forced to follow them ??

Now you talked about snipers , they do have them , at least usually , and still i dont see what the hell they would do in such case . Snipe what ? a huge lightning bolt coming from nowhere ? Then when Electro do land what ? using a bullet against a guy turning into lightning and possibly traveling at his speed in this form ? The whole without getting panicked from the first strike and then massive breakout ?

Bulkheads that cannot be lifted without a security code ? we are talking about raw massive electric damage , why would you even need a code :evilsmile

Bendis has used the conceit of "power-dampeners" in "Powers". They haven't seen much play in the MU, but with SHIELD technology... if the Hellfire club can have had shackles that remove mutant powers TWENTY YEARS AGO, why not whole power draining prison?

Well they do have them , they constantly uses shackles or rooms that anihilate the inmates powers . But again how would that be of any use VS an outsider with enough power to break in ?

[Charagon]

You have to consider, once the power is gone there's simply no way to restrain some of these people.

Carnage is kept in a reinforced box that's constantly got heavy duty flamethrowers trained on it.

Hydro-Man is kept in an airtight cell. The slightest crack and he's free.

Frankly, keeping all these people together is just a bad idea in the first place (BTW, what happened to The Vault. That's where they should have been?)

[Shellhead]

You have to consider, once the power is gone there's simply no way to restrain some of these people.

Carnage is kept in a reinforced box that's constantly got heavy duty flamethrowers trained on it.

Hydro-Man is kept in an airtight cell. The slightest crack and he's free.

Frankly, keeping all these people together is just a bad idea in the first place (BTW, what happened to The Vault. That's where they should have been?)

The problem with the Vault is that it's in the Rockies. A lot of the action in the Marvel Universe takes place in Manhatten. If something happens outside of New York City, the street-levelers have transportation problems. Bendis would tend to force the action to happen in NYC rather than go the traditional quinjet route, apparently.

[StoneGold]

OMG I never got it until now.. :rolleyes:

SG: most plots should be explained in 3 sentences or less, atleast that is how the pitch should be for the story.

and as you stated here, and you really think about it.


Did this really need 6 issues?
I can do the same for a season of 24, does it need 24 hours to tell the story? I summed up Ultron Unlimited in the same amount of space, is it crap because it was done in five?

Could it have been told in one? Maybe. But then it would have come off like an old Marvel Team Up book. Try reading those sometimes. They aren't that good. Slapdash. Thrown together. Little-to-no characterization.

[pureclint]

Ok, again with the example of Simonson's Thor, some of Thor's plots lasted several issues that were only days yet the sub-plot o sutur just kept going. It is not how long the comic time is it is how many comics that have come out. If we see nothing of the Shield subplot or the dead villians subplot in the whole Sentry arc then that is too long in my opinion.
But this is just my opinion and we are all have them. :)


You have to allow him some time to deal with them before saying he does not keep up with them though. Prefering him to deal with the sub plots in a timely manner in the current and upcoming arcs is a lot different then saying he does not keep up with them.

I do think it is only fair to let him develop the Shield one as that seems like a bigger point over a more then 3 or 4 issues (ala Surtur didnt Simonson have a few others that went on a while? Like Odin missing etc?). We just found out about that point in the end of the Savage land and then boom the Sentry was found.

As I mentioned I do think he needs to mention the Breakout Mini and at least touch on the sub plots (He can not have the team just ignore the Shield nasties for 10 or 20 issues) as the story moves along but he does not have to focus on them every issue.

[BlackKnight]

You have to allow him some time to deal with them before saying he does not keep up with them though. Prefering him to deal with the sub plots in a timely manner in the current and upcoming arcs is a lot different then saying he does not keep up with them.

I do think it is only fair to let him develop the Shield one as that seems like a bigger point over a more then 3 or 4 issues (ala Surtur didnt Simonson have a few others that went on a while? Like Odin missing etc?). We just found out about that point in the end of the Savage land and then boom the Sentry was found.

As I mentioned I do think he needs to mention the Breakout Mini and at least touch on the sub plots (He can not have the team just ignore the Shield nasties for 10 or 20 issues) as the story moves along but he does not have to focus on them every issue.

Ahh, you misunderstand, I don't want him to focus on the subplot but much like the Surtur saga (which if you go back you will find the subplot actually was going on for like 10 issues before it become the main plot) just a few panels to keep the audience interested. That is cool I am ok with that. I was just thinking he should have like a few panels keeping the fire warm on the shield subplot. I am willing to see if anything is done with it before the end of the Sentry arc, but if not then he is letting a big part of the first arc grow cold. (And for those of you who keep saying only days have happened in the comic well months and months have happened outside the comic and if you don't follow up on subplots the simple vanish from the readers mind. ) Just my opinion though.

[pureclint]

I am willing to see if anything is done with it before the end of the Sentry arc, but if not then he is letting a big part of the first arc grow cold.


And that is 100% valid and cool. As long as you do give him some time, thats just not the impression I got from your first comment.

It will be a bit odd for the Avengers to work with Shield during the Sentyr arc and not mention some lack of trust...

[Captain Shady]

When they went after the Sentry who were they there with?

Also, besides crowbar boy who else is one of the people that "broke" out of the raft that the avengers pursued?

I give you a clue, both answers start with S. One ends with "ield" the other with "entry".

As far as Question 1, am I the only one that thought "working" with Shield to get the Sentry probably had a dual purpose?

I prefer not to have things spelled out to me, especially when on panel it makes logical sense.

As far as Question 2, who is the most powerful guy to "break" out of the raft?

Both plotlines are potentially carried out in this last issue, and they may be woven together for all we know. Patience young readers. It'll get more obvious to you later.

As for Shield the best way sniff out the rogues is to get close to them and what are the avengers doing... working with them to get close to them.

Maybe I should sell a cliff-notes to some of these comics--seems to be a market for it. I'd also include some exersizes for readers to be less reliant on help. Page 1: We'll do connect the dots. To not make it too hard we'll have just 2 dots.