Azzarello's Superman

[d00m]

I'm really enjoying 100 Bullets.. and I was wondering if anyone here has read Azzarello's work on Superman...

Is it any good? Are the TPBs worth picking up?

[The Shadow]

I'm really enjoying 100 Bullets..
Great stuff!

and I was wondering if anyone here has read Azzarello's work on Superman...
Yes I have.

Is it any good? Are the TPBs worth picking up?
NO! It's a sleeper... as in "if you want to fall asleep fast... read it" type of story.

If Chuck Austen had written that it would have been lambasted... and if Jim Lee didn't draw it the sames would have fallen faster than a speeding bullet. It was simply proof that lemmings will follow Jim Lee regardless of the actual story. I bought it to continue the run I have... and kept HOPING and praying it would get better. It didn't.

Save your money and spend it on a book like Manhunter or Marvel's She-Hulk. Quality bang for your buck!

[Rob H]

100 Bullets is great. Make sure you check out Loveless when it comes out aswell.

As for the Superman run, I'm reading that now. I picked up the issues off eBay and I'm enjoying it thus far. I'm only 3 issues in but it's a good read. Not sure why others don't agree.

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.....

[Sean Whitmore]

I hated the Azz issues initially, but started to get into them more towards the end of the arc. And then when I went back and read the story as a whole, I thought it was pretty okay.

I don't think Azz quite understood Superman's personality, and his dialogue is a chore to decipher throughout. But it had a good plot, and it looked great, and there were some cool fight scenes.

So yeah, not exactly ringing endorsement, but worth a read.


SEAN

[stealthwise]

Horrendously boring.. for the three issues that I managed to stomach before dropping the run.

[cactusmaac]

Not the classic I was hoping for but still miles better than most superhero stories.

Does really need to be read in one sitting.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I read the story in one sitting myself and I have to agree that I also would have lost interest very quickly if I had been reading it monthly.

The art is wonderful if you like Jim Lee's stuff. The story is good, if a bit slow. The dialogue has a few nice bits here and there, but is largely pretentious crap.

[Mia]

but is largely pretentious crap.


Nice summation.

[El Chupacabra]

It's a very boring read. Plain and simple. The first few issues of the arc basically have nothing happen. It's like reading the issue over and over and over again. I really didn't feel attached to any of the characters and the story was so bland I forgot what happened from issue to issue, only to remember the following month, nothing actually happened!

I sat down and re-read the entire arc about a month ago. Still wasn't any good.

[Rob H]

Dammit. I was hoping to go against the grain here but after the first 7 issues, I'm beginning to think that this story isn't the fun read I thought it'd be.

I picked all issues off of eBay for a quite a bit of cash (still a little cheaper than it was in store) and I can definitely say that it reads ok as a whole story but it's a little pretentious as somebody has already stated. I usually love Azz's work but this isn't doing much for me. The only great thing about it is Jim Lee's artwork. Everything else is mediocre at best.

[EmmaFrostSlavingFanBoy]

His run on superman wasn't very good. I think it had promise even with the slow start, but you ended up not caring at the end. If you like Lee's art then it's worth it.

[Robin3]

the problem was he stretched a 2 month plot over 12 months. there just wasn't enough story, plus, in spite of all the pages he was given to tell it, it never fully made sense.

[protonik]

100 Bullets is great. Make sure you check out Loveless when it comes out aswell.

As for the Superman run, I'm reading that now. I picked up the issues off eBay and I'm enjoying it thus far. I'm only 3 issues in but it's a good read. Not sure why others don't agree.


Here is an example, the first several pages of each issue are used to recapitulate the the first issue with nothing happening in the rest of the issue, then Three Willy Seth shows up and their is a small fight that DC promised was going to be huge... then all of a sudden Superman is in Wonderland and Zod shows up and they fight... oh ok. The problem with the story is it could have been four issues TOTAL and that we have had enough of these "what makes Superman so great" stories in the last few years to want to choke ourselves on this maggotty garbage. What made Austen's run seem so great was that he didn't focus on Superman and what made him tick, he just told Action stories that were about adventure. Even Rucka has made the mistake of trying to explore Superman's relevance in this age. We don't need that CRAP, we want good stories that are fun to read and a treat to look at which explains why Action comics by Simone and Byrne is starting to gain sells, its a good, fun comic that tells stories with Superman as the hero and not Superman as the symbol of a hero. I think the latter misses the point.

Jason

[BlueOrange25]

Azzarello's Superman story really wasn't all that hot. A bit slow, and if you really want to read it, having it in TPB is ideal. The monthly installments left me disinterested after a while.

Superman seemed a bit too introspective for my tastes, and whilst I appreciate the different spin on a character, it's something else entirely when a character is written out of character. I think Azzarello's better suited to writing Batman rather than Superman.

[d00m]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.. I've decided that they arent worth my money at the moment :p

I think Azzarello's better suited to writing Batman rather than Superman.

Speaking of that... is the Azzarello/Risso run on Batman any good?

[The Shadow]

the story was so bland I forgot what happened from issue to issue
Same here... people have said above you have to read it in one sitting... well I ended up doing that because as each issue came out I would re-read the previous issue... and then the previous 3 and 4 and 5 and so on... until the last issue.

THEN I asked myself why I wasted my time and money on em.

[The Shadow]

Speaking of that... is the Azzarello/Risso run on Batman any good?
Yes... though not much.

Azz had to follow up the over-hyped Lee/Loeb Hush arc... and his entire story could (and should) have been in a mini series. Killer Croc the issue before was a mutating animal... and the very next issue he's a suit wearing gangster!

It was a decent Detective story (should have been in Detective Comics) but after reading it I was... meh. Not great... not bad.

[Mia]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.. I've decided that they arent worth my money at the moment :p



Speaking of that... is the Azzarello/Risso run on Batman any good?


No, not really. IMHO it wasn't Batman in that story. That was Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer dressed up in a Bat suit.

If you really want to read a very good Batman story by Azarello, then pick up "Batman/Deathblow". Now that's an awesome story and far more reminiscent of 100 Bullets.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1401200346/qid=1124946158/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-6806025-2972723?v=glance&s=books

The whole problem I had with Az take on Superman, apart from what was mentioned above. It was like he was going out of his way to try or pretend that he wasn't writing a superhero comic. Like bored said, it was just pretentious crap that fooled no one. Azarello should stick to what he likes not what he doesn't.

[Calamas]

THEN I asked myself why I wasted my time and money on em.
Actually I had an answer to that question. To me Azz has always started slow, but he usually finds his way to a story--and one that’s worth reading and was worth sticking around for. I shoulda known better. This time he was *asked* to stretch it to 12 issues. Biiiiiiig mistake on my part. If you just read the last three or four issues, you’d get most of it and would probably only be confused by the presence of the priest.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

As big a disaster as Azz/Lee's run was, I do have to give them and DC credit for at least trying to do something different with Superman. They all knew from the outset that doing this kind of story with the character was a bit of a stretch and I think even they realised at the end that they'd bitten off more than they could chew. As a result, I think the later issues were much better than the earlier ones because, by that time, they'd heard how poorly the story was being recieved.

So, if you've already bought the whole series, I'd suggest slogging your way all the way till the end because some of the stuff with General Zod is kinda cool.

[The Shadow]

If you just read the last three or four issues, you’d get most of it and would probably only be confused by the presence of the priest.
There was a priest? :eek:

LOL

I do have to give them and DC credit for at least trying to do something different with Superman.
That I agree with!

Unfortunatly I think it was waaaaay to out there and too drastic a change to be accepted... or even liked.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Unfortunatly I think it was waaaaay to out there and too drastic a change to be accepted... or even liked.

Yeah, but I'd rather DC try something different and fail than keep doing the same crap over and over again like DC & Marvel usually do.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, but I'd rather DC try something different and fail than keep doing the same crap over and over again like DC & Marvel usually do.

You know what would be different?

Giving in to all of Alan Moore's desires and having him write any kind of Superman story he'd like to write at any given moment. I'm excited that Morrison is doing All-Star Superman soon, but I'd kill to see some new Moore stuff on the character.

[The Shadow]

Giving in to all of Alan Moore's desires and having him write any kind of Superman story he'd like to write at any given moment. I'm excited that Morrison is doing All-Star Superman soon, but I'd kill to see some new Moore stuff on the character.
Oh HELL YEAH!

That would be worth the $$$

Morrison is alright (some of his stuff is so over rated though)... but NOBODY is better than Moore

[cactusmaac]

Just read Moore's Supreme then.

It's Superman with the serial numbers filed off.

[Jim Yost]

Has it bee officially established yet that this whole arc was the setup for Sacrifice?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Guys, I understand where you're coming from in wanting DC to try to get Alan Moore to do Superman again, but it simply ain't happening. Its not a matter of giving Alan Moore money or anything, he simply won't work for DC Comics again as a matter of principle. There's no amount of money or bribery that would bring him back. He won't work for DC Comics again. Period.

Besides, as cactusmaac rightly points out, Moore was able to do pretty much every Superman story he'd ever wanted to tell with Supreme only a few years ago, then moved on to Tom Strong for another few years, which explored the archetype that inspired Superman in the first place.

I think it's a foregone conclusion by now that Alan Moore has said pretty much all he wants to say about Superman at this point...

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Has it bee officially established yet that this whole arc was the setup for Sacrifice?

No, but "Sacrifice" sure does make some of the lamer elements of "For Tomorrow" make sense, so while it probably won't ever be outright said, I have a feeling that many fans will accept it as official even if its never mentioned in a comic.

Same with the whole Batprick era, I doubt DC will ever come out and make it official that Batman's infantile and socially retarded behavior the last few years was because of the mindwipe, but many fans will certainly believe it to be true.

[stealthwise]

Guys, I understand where you're coming from in wanting DC to try to get Alan Moore to do Superman again, but it simply ain't happening. Its not a matter of giving Alan Moore money or anything, he simply won't work for DC Comics again as a matter of principle. There's no amount of money or bribery that would bring him back. He won't work for DC Comics again. Period.

Besides, as cactusmaac rightly points out, Moore was able to do pretty much every Superman story he'd ever wanted to tell with Supreme only a few years ago, then moved on to Tom Strong for another few years, which explored the archetype that inspired Superman in the first place.

I think it's a foregone conclusion by now that Alan Moore has said pretty much all he wants to say about Superman at this point...

Oh, I know, but I can dream, right?

I'm currently getting the rest of Moore's Supreme run and am moving on to Tom Strong afterwards. I just read Superman from time to time and get frustrated at how... mediocre most of his regular adventures have been over the past 20 or so years.

[Sean Whitmore]

No, but "Sacrifice" sure does make some of the lamer elements of "For Tomorrow" make sense, so while it probably won't ever be outright said, I have a feeling that many fans will accept it as official even if its never mentioned in a comic.


I'm probably missing something obvious here, but how would "FT" and "Sacrifice" be linked? The only thing they have in common (besides a Superman/WW fight) is the roundabout mention of OMAC, but a completely different kind than the "virus" type we've got now.


Same with the whole Batprick era, I doubt DC will ever come out and make it official that Batman's infantile and socially retarded behavior the last few years was because of the mindwipe, but many fans will certainly believe it to be true.


Unless they come right out and say it, I would never want to make that assumption. Batman has been retroactively an a-hole since before the League was ever formed now, for one, so there's no mindwipe to blame for a lot of that. And even since the mindwipe, he's worked much too closely with and trusted Zatanna, Dinah, Ollie, and the others, many times. Hell, beforehe went nuts, Hal was even someone Bats trusted implicitly.


SEAN

[cactusmaac]

What timescale are we talking here?

Where does the Satellite Era JLA slot into?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm probably missing something obvious here, but how would "FT" and "Sacrifice" be linked? The only thing they have in common (besides a Superman/WW fight) is the roundabout mention of OMAC, but a completely different kind than the "virus" type we've got now.

SEAN

For Tomorrow depicted Superman distraught over losing Lois, which was Max's hook into Clark's mind. The thing is, in the story, it was said that Lois & a million others were missing for an entire year, but not a single other comic has referenced Lois ever being gone for a year or anyone else for that matter. Lois never disappeared for even a week in the other Superman comics, let alone a year. And in the first issue after Azz & Lee's story finished, Lois mentions how Superman has been missing, not her.

My conclusion: Several chunks of Azz & Lee's story took place in Superman's head as Max tinkered with ways to control him using.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What timescale are we talking here?

Where does the Satellite Era JLA slot into?

In DC current timeline, the Satellite Era is somewhere around Year 3 or 4 I believe...

[Sean Whitmore]

My conclusion: Several chunks of Azz & Lee's story took place in Superman's head as Max tinkered with ways to control him using.


Wow, I actually like that idea. I may jump on the bandwagon of believeing it too. :D


SEAN

[Jim Yost]

I'm probably missing something obvious here, but how would "FT" and "Sacrifice" be linked?

What I'm going on (and please understand this is what I have 'picked up' off the net; I haven't read all of EITHER story), but even beyond the aforementioned things which didn't add up, and with Lois being the target, there's the fact that, in Sacrifice, when Max 'activated' Superman, Superman said something to the effect of "Don't worry, father, I'll protect you," and of course For Tomorrow centered around multiple issues of Superman jawing with a priest for no clear reason. Supposition follows that Max WAS the priest, and that whole story was his taking control and breaking Superman down.

Oh, yeah... and when For Tomorrow started, it was widely reported that that storyline would be taking place one year ahead of the other books... didn't Countdown happen right around the end of that run, when all the other books "caught up"?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There's also the fact that most of the dialogue in "For Tomorrow" sounds like something someone might think sounds cool in their head, but wouldn't actually say out loud.

See? With a little helpful retconning even the lamest of comics can be explained away!

Next week, I'll tell you all how every appearance of the infamous Super-Mullet was actually a temporal anomoly caused by the Scarlet Skiier when he accidentally gained the power of the Anti-Life Equation between the years 1993 and 1998

[protonik]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.. I've decided that they arent worth my money at the moment :p



Speaking of that... is the Azzarello/Risso run on Batman any good?

More interesting to read but it was a Sin City story and not a Batman story, right down to the art...

Jason

[protonik]

Oh, I know, but I can dream, right?

I'm currently getting the rest of Moore's Supreme run and am moving on to Tom Strong afterwards. I just read Superman from time to time and get frustrated at how... mediocre most of his regular adventures have been over the past 20 or so years.

Buyer beware notice:

Alan Moore's Supreme was excellent but suffered from inconsistent art early on until Chris Sprouse begins to pencil the series. Sprouse seems to have been the only artist besides Veitch who understood what Moore was trying to do with the series as Bennett and co. on the first several seem totally clueless, rendering it in the over rendered Image style that they worked in at the time. Occassionally the artwork almost captures a McGuinness like quality and then careens right back into the wall of bad design and layout. The post-Sprouse issues suffer from guest artists every issue but are stronger than the early issues, relying on industry veterans as opposed to left overs from Mike Deodato studios or rookies who didn't understand comic art enough to get Moore's stories... guys like Matt Smith, Jim Starlin, Ian Churchill (most visually stunning issue) and Rob Liefeld (did some great work on his issue actually) seem to understand what Moore is trying to get acrossed to the reader and therefore stronger stories come out of the book. I thought the early issues were the weakest and one or two of Sprouse's issues had stories I didn't like, but no because of the art, they just didn't click for me but the Sprouse stuff on is more consistent and interesting to read.

Tom Strong was probably Moore's strongest work on the concept of a Superman, this time the Nietzchean conception of the perfect human being. Sprouse turned in his strongest work in his issues of Tom Strong. My only wish is that Sprouse had been the one doing the flashback sequences as well as the current era sequences as the flashback artwork sometimes marred the story, it just wasn't as good as Sprouse at understanding the scripts or the character. Highlights are issues 2-7. Issue 2 was the Modular Man story that after the weak first issue (which somehow won an Eisner), sold me on the book and the 4-7 issues dealt with Tom Strong's conflicts with a Nazi woman who thinks he is the perfect mate and what she did to him in the forties and its repercussions today.

JAson

Jason

[cactusmaac]

That wasn't a mullet.

It was long hair.

[Frank]

Buyer beware notice:

Alan Moore's Supreme was excellent but suffered from inconsistent art early on until Chris Sprouse begins to pencil the series. Sprouse seems to have been the only artist besides Veitch who understood what Moore was trying to do with the series as Bennett and co. on the first several seem totally clueless, rendering it in the over rendered Image style that they worked in at the time. Occassionally the artwork almost captures a McGuinness like quality and then careens right back into the wall of bad design and layout. The post-Sprouse issues suffer from guest artists every issue but are stronger than the early issues, relying on industry veterans as opposed to left overs from Mike Deodato studios or rookies who didn't understand comic art enough to get Moore's stories... guys like Matt Smith, Jim Starlin, Ian Churchill (most visually stunning issue) and Rob Liefeld (did some great work on his issue actually) seem to understand what Moore is trying to get acrossed to the reader and therefore stronger stories come out of the book. I thought the early issues were the weakest and one or two of Sprouse's issues had stories I didn't like, but no because of the art, they just didn't click for me but the Sprouse stuff on is more consistent and interesting to read.

Tom Strong was probably Moore's strongest work on the concept of a Superman, this time the Nietzchean conception of the perfect human being. Sprouse turned in his strongest work in his issues of Tom Strong. My only wish is that Sprouse had been the one doing the flashback sequences as well as the current era sequences as the flashback artwork sometimes marred the story, it just wasn't as good as Sprouse at understanding the scripts or the character. Highlights are issues 2-7. Issue 2 was the Modular Man story that after the weak first issue (which somehow won an Eisner), sold me on the book and the 4-7 issues dealt with Tom Strong's conflicts with a Nazi woman who thinks he is the perfect mate and what she did to him in the forties and its repercussions today.

JAson

Jason

Bear in mind i`m speaking from personal taste only. To me while Tom Strong was imaginative I think it never had the charm that the Supreme series had with Moore and Sprouse. There was this little spark missing.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

That wasn't a mullet.

It was long hair.

Some artists grew it as long hair, yes, but far too many drew it as a mullet.

[Superrossman]

Is it any good? Are the TPBs worth picking up?
I LOOOOVE 100 Bullets myself.
His Superman, though......
Kinda like finding a turd, instead of tequila, in the punch bowl at your High School prom.
TRUST ME. NOT WORTH THE TIME.


Although you will probably read it anyway.

[chriskenny]

That wasn't a mullet.

It was long hair.

I think because people didn't decide to crap or get off the pot, they ended up drawing Superman between his regular and his long hair, which ended up giving him a mullet. This was the norm with the exception of Stuart Immonen, who drew it as Fabio long hair. Just about everyone else drew it as a mullet.