Teen Titans #27 *SPOILERS*

[Michael P]

The book we've all either been waiting for or dreading since May ships this Wednesday.

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/liefeld/robtitans5.jpg

Who's buying it? Reasons are immaterial to the poll, but feel free to post them in the thread.

[Adem]

You know I love the Teen Titans and have all the issues of the new run so far, but I think I'll a exception and not buy these issues. The art on a book I think is important and I think this won't do Gail Simone's writing justice so I'll pass.

[Titan Slade]

Since Liefeld is not writing it, I will be buying it. I can live with his goofy anatomy and no backgrounds. But If he were writing and drawing it, I would not buy it. Liefeld is the worse comic book writer I have ever read.

[Lex]

While I'm not a fan of Liefield's art, I'm a huge fan of Gail's writing. I'll definately pick up this issue.

[Gingold]

This looks like it will be fun. Even if I wasn't already getting this book, I'd probably pick it up for Gail alone. And Rob's a guilty pleasure. It's good to eat healthy, but every now and then you want some junk food. I bet lots of stuff will blow up and lots of people will get hit. Anatomy, shmnatomy.

[Forsaken_One]

After the last arc I gave up Titans altogether for a myriad of reasons. So I won't be picking up this month's issue, even if it is written by Simone.

[K'Nort]

You forgot "I have a pull list and/or subscription so I'm getting it automatically. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to it."

[Gaz]

It's on my pull anyway, and I'm praying that Gail's writing is going to be able to outshine Rob's "art".
Even if it doesn't there's still Bruce Timm on BoP next month.

[GremlinClr]

It's a Titans book and I'm a Titans whore of long standing since the Wolfman/Perez era. It's only 2 issues. I have then whole series up til now and I plan on having the issues after these two and I hate holes in a series so...I guess I'll pick 'em up.

I mean, how bad could it be? *gulp*

[Gaz]

It's a Titans book and I'm a Titans whore of long standing since the Wolfman/Perez era. It's only 2 issues. I have then whole series up til now and I plan on having the issues after these two and I hate holes in a series so...I guess I'll pick 'em up.

I mean, how bad could it be? *gulp*
Plot, will be great.
Art, not so much.

[The Shadow]

I'm a fan of Rob's art and Gail's writing is some of the best in the biz... so Yeah I'm getting it.

[Patriot07]

I'm still undecided. I love Gail Simone's writing. She's probably one of favorite writers right now. Villains United is amazing and Action Comics is fun. I even like Rob's art. I'm a huge fan of his X-Force. It's Hawk and Dove that I have a problem with. I have very little intrest in them. But seeing as I don't go to the store every week, I'll put it in my box and decide later.

[Gaz]

I'm still undecided. I love Gail Simone's writing. She's probably one of favorite writers right now. Villains United is amazing and Action Comics is fun. I even like Rob's art. I'm a huge fan of his X-Force. It's Hawk and Dove that I have a problem with. I have very little intrest in them. But seeing as I don't go to the store every week, I'll put it in my box and decide later.
The concept or the characters, because the female pair are pretty new IIRC.

[GWENSNAP]

I don't care about Liefield. Brother Blood is back, Trigon's got him and Arella is Mother Superior!!! Why do I have to wait 2 months for the greatest TT brawl EVER? WHY?!?! :(

[K'Nort]

Sorry, but I am so tired of Brother Blood. There's nothing dramatic about him showing up anymore.

[tricksterpup]

You know, Since Gail is writing this book, I will pick it up but If its a bad read. Well I will hunt down GAIL and force her to WATCH atleast 20 hours of LOST IN SPACE. I think 20 hours of Dr. Smith is punishment enough.
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/geosciences/people/harris/images/Dr.%20Smith.jpg

[Babylon23]

I have a standing order, so I'll be getting the issues regardless of the creative team. My LCS is good to me, so I'd hate to deprive them of their income, and they've ordered the books for me on good faith.

I don't really care about Liefeld's art, but Simone is writing it, and I like Hawk and Dove. So I'm looking forward to the issues from a story/character perspective.

[Paradox]

K'Nort notes a flaw:

You forgot "I have a pull list and/or subscription so I'm getting it automatically. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to it."

Bingo. Plus I do like most of Gail's work, so that's a plus.

Hell, it can't be any worse than that Heroes Reborn fecal matter I bought every...damned...issue of. :evilangry

Can you feel my shame?

[Paradox]

tricksterpup plays hardball:

You know, Since Gail is writting this book, I will pick it up but If its a bad read. Well I will hunt down GAIL and force her to WATCH atleast 20 hours of LOST IN SPACE. I think 20 hours of Dr. Smith is punishment enough.
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/geosciences/people/harris/images/Dr.%20Smith.jpg

"Ohhhh, the pain...the pain of it all!" :p

[Kent H]

You forgot "I have a pull list and/or subscription so I'm getting it automatically. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to it."


I put the decide in the store option, but actually this is same case for me. Though I do look forward to Gail's take on the characters.

[Sanagi]

After looking at that cover, I just have one question: Are all the characters transsexuals?

[The Shadow]

After looking at that cover, I just have one question: Are all the characters transsexuals?
What on earth gives you that impression? You can dislike the art... but that's the most assinine thing I've read here all day.

[Apathy Boy]

What on earth gives you that impression? You can dislike the art... but that's the most assinine thing I've read here all day.Yeah. I don't love Liefeld's art, but I don't see any gender crossover on that cover. It's not like we're talking about Michael Turner's Kid Flash here.

[Animation]

I have the teen titans trades 1, 2, and 3. I pretty much only buy trades, so eventually I guess when trade #4 comes out, I'll be getting the material. Therefore, I didnt vote. I'm just replying to say that if that pic in the first post is representative of the art, then I'm not looking forward to it. That style of art is why I quit reading books back in the 90s. Hard lines, cruel or angry looking faces and bodies, too many rigid/hard lines making the heroes look like steroid freaks ... I don't like that. It is possible to make heroes look powerful, muscular, super graceful, or titanic without making them looking like they are high on steroids and about to kill someone.

I guess I just prefer softer lines, even when the heroes are extremely muscular.

Lewis

[Sixgun_Samurai]

I have not picked up any of the Titian books in a long time. I will get this one thought just to find out what is the deal with Hawk. Anyone know about this?

[Indefatigable]

Bleh. I've never read any of Liefeld's work, but that cover still scares me. I love Gail and I love the Titans but...oh my god the cover...

[Cayman]

I can probably stomach Liefeld's art as long as Gail's writing is up to her usual high standards. Not sure if I'll get this or not though. Will it have more intrusive Infinite Crisis crap?

Cay

[public defender]

I'm buying it...it's on my pull list anyway, and I can't see breaking up a full run in my collection over one fill-in artist.

Besides...if I can live through Gulacy's run on "Catwoman" I can deal with anything.

[dougiemccoy]

Its on my pull list but i sure i'll row my eye a few times while reading it.

[CaptainAwesome]

Im gonna get it but just because its on my pull list. Its just 2 issues right, so whats the big deal? No reason to break the run.

[TitoJones]

I like Gail's writing and I like Hawk and Dove, even though I think this is a new version, so I'll give it a try.

[Matt Algren]

I like Gail's writing and I like Hawk and Dove, even though I think this is a new version, so I'll give it a try.
Wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Even though I'm a ridiculous Titans whore. Even though Gail's writing it. I just can't be part of the reason that Leifeld commands such a high paycheck.

I am curious to see how many of the pages can be recognized as swipes, though.

[Corsair]

I normally buy Teen Titans, so I added it on out of habit when I ordered this month's comics. Totally forgot about the, um, creative interlude. I'd probably have passed on it, since I'm not generally a fan of Gail's stuff either.

Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[hellokittykat]

I'm picking up because I love Gail Simone's writing. I can look past art that I don't care for as long as the story is entertaining.

[Typo Lad]

You forgot "I have a pull list and/or subscription so I'm getting it automatically. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to it."

You can always hand it back to the counter-guy.

[K'Nort]

You can always hand it back to the counter-guy.

It's all girls.

And I'm committed to buy it under the circumstances.

[Captain]

I honestly was not aware of the change in creative team until I picked up the issue today.

I did not enjoy the book very much. For me, the art did not fit at all, and was not something I would want to look at on a monthly basis.

I will now be dropping the book until a change in team/artist.

[Michael P]

I honestly was not aware of the change in creative team until I picked up the issue today.

I did not enjoy the book very much. For me, the art did not fit at all, and was not something I would want to look at on a monthly basis.

I will now be dropping the book until a change in team/artist.
See you in October.

[the Monitor]

What on earth gives you that impression? You can dislike the art... but that's the most assinine thing I've read here all day.


You should get here more often!

[dazzler_slave]

I collect Teen Titans anyway, but you have to ask yourself this: Does the genius and amazing track record of Gail Simone outweigh the demonic horror that is Rob Leifeld? Some say yes, some say no. Only you can be the judge in your own heart...

[DDM]

I dropped Teen Titans with this issue.

[Kevinroc]

I passed on the issue in the store.

[Lester C.]

I bought it as I'm a fan of Gail Simone and Rob Liefield the artist if not Rob Liefield the man. I do have one huge complaint and it is this. The events in this book are nothing but filler until Johns gets back to this book just like the past two issues of Outsiders were nothing but filler until that series Winlock gets back to that book. In my opinion if the last megacross over was designed to bring in new readers then DC is blowing by having to filler issues in both books as new readers wont be experiencing the full quality that both these books offer month in and month out.

[Captain]

See you in October.

That's all Liefeld is doing? What is that one or two more issues?

[tricksterpup]

That's all Liefeld is doing? What is that one or two more issues?
he is only doing 2 issues and that is all.

[Guts/Batman]

I got it. It was ok.

I'll have to re read it to further my opinion of it.

[redlantern2051]

I read it. Is it just me or does like the story suddenly stop and start midway thru? I found it hard to understand what was happening. Definitely a sub-par issue and the art did nothing for me, in general.

[Cayman]

I was gonna get it, but I flipped through it and it looked like their was Crisis crap in it, so I left it on the shelf.

Cay

[poraxan]

The art is terrible, the issue didn't do anything for me. Why would they all be wearing the full garb when they are bowling?

[protonik]

I read it. Is it just me or does like the story suddenly stop and start midway thru? I found it hard to understand what was happening. Definitely a sub-par issue and the art did nothing for me, in general.

You might want to reread it, you may have skipped a page...

Spoilers

The story was this: Cyborg called Robin to go bowling at Titans Tower with the other members of the team. They got a distress call that a group of teen agers had taken over a building and the team went there and beat them and then went back to the Tower for the game and some interesting and funny character moments like Raven trying to understand "bowling" and getting mad at the white things. Kestrel makes a deal with the Lords of Chaos for more power in order to become one of them and he returns to the material plane. Kestrel frees the kids that attacked the building and requests only 2 volunteers and the other two will die. The Harlequin looking chick and the comp chick kill their friends and join Kestrel, who leaves a Kestrel feather. The Titans see the news about the break and assume Kestrel is after Hawk & Dove and they contact them in order to take them the Tower for safety. Kestrel and his new servants have already attacked the Tower and a fight ensues in which Kestrel takes Raven bringing us to the end.

Jason

[protonik]

The art is terrible, the issue didn't do anything for me. Why would they all be wearing the full garb when they are bowling?

Ummm, easy, they are in th Titans Tower and the press, bad guys, etc could show up ANYTIME and their identities will be exposed. I thought that was obvious. It isn't like the X-Men where the general populace doesn't/didn't know the X-Men lived at the mansion, the Titans Tower is a BIG FRICKIN' T in the middle of San FRancisco! That's like a target for the bad guys!

Jason

[BoosterBronze]

I have a subscription, and am stuck with these issues, but am considering writing "CRAP" on them with a sharpie and mailing them to DC's office.

If Rob Liefeld doesn't respect the fans enough to give any more effort than is evident in this garbage, then I hope all the people who have a choice to not buy this book do so, and Titans' sees a 90% drop in sales this month.

This might be the worst Liefeld's been in years. It doesn't even look FINISHED, let alone polished. And who colored it so as Robin has yellow stirpes sometimes?

I mean, sometimes there are SKETCH MARKS left on the characters. Leifeld doesn't respect the buying pulic enuogh to erase is his sketch marks.

Jeez.

[Guts/Batman]

The art is terrible, the issue didn't do anything for me. Why would they all be wearing the full garb when they are bowling?

So they have a bit more muscle than they normally do. I don't see that is a bad thing.

Cassie had a massive six pack though. Through me off a lil.

[titanfan]

Story wise, it was ok.

Art wise, I thought Rob toned down his style some and tried to draw more "normal". Still some weird panel layouts--confusion as to what was going on in the action sequences, but not as bad as I remembered from his Image days.

Only weird thing was that the asian villainess didn't look asian at all--and she reminded me too much of one of the Wildcats characters. And the other girl reminded me too much of Domino.

[GremlinClr]

Well I bought it. It wasn't very good, I agree with BoosterBronze on the art. I don't care for Leifelds art anyway but this looked worse than his usual stuff, if that's possible.

And I didn't really care for Gails story either.

Oh well, it's just 2 issues. Then back to some sweet, sweet Johns goodness. *Sigh* Completely heterosexual man crush

[Guts/Batman]

Well I bought it. It wasn't very good, I agree with BoosterBronze on the art. I don't care for Leifelds art anyway but this looked worse than his usual stuff, if that's possible.

And I didn't really care for Gails story either.

Oh well, it's just 2 issues. Then back to some sweet, sweet Johns goodness. *Sigh* Completely heterosexual man crush

You mean, you actually want The Red Hood, aka Jason Todd to show up in 29?

[kramden]

I thought Liefeld`s work on Teen Titans was awsome. I cant wait for issue 28.i wish he was on the title full time but i know he has deadline problems.If Marvel can wait For Bryan Hitch to finnish his pages of the Ultimates, cant DC wait for Leifeld to finnish his pages.(Leifeld is a much better artist than Hitch IMO) than maybe we could have him back full time on an ongoing.Put Leifeld on Gothem Central and you will see the sales go way up

[Sir Tim Drake]

I thought Liefeld`s work on Teen Titans was awsome. I cant wait for issue 28.i wish he was on the title full time but i know he has deadline problems.If Marvel can wait For Bryan Hitch to finnish his pages of the Ultimates, cant DC wait for Leifeld to finnish his pages.(Leifeld is a much better artist than Hitch IMO) than maybe we could have him back full time on an ongoing.Put Leifeld on Gothem Central and you will see the sales go way up

Pardon my bluntness, but that is a horrible idea. I admit I dropped Gotham Central after both Lark and Brubaker left, but when I was reading it, the series maintained a consistent artistic tone that was moody, European-influenced, and different from typical superhero comics. Liefeld would be completely unsuited to the artistic style that Gotham Central maintained. (He's also the worst penciller in the history of the comics medium, but that's another argument.)

[Indefatigable]

/disbelief

[The Adventurer]

My head just exploded.

Leifeld is the biggest hack that ever hacked.

[Chaos_Sentry]

Agreed. bumpty bump bump bum.

[The Shadow]

I bought it... read it... and liked it.

It was exactly what I was expecting. Good story and fun art. Not Neal Adams GREAT... but it was (IMO) Liefeld's best work in a long time.

[Captain Jim]

I took a look at it in the store, but passed on it as I had intended. I'm buying too much already and I don't need to spend more money on fill-in's. I gave up on the notion that it's important to maintain a "complete run" long ago.

But please realize this is just two issues people; then the regular creators come back.

And kramden simply *has* to be speaking tongue in cheek.

[Adam Crocker]

I have said it before and I'll say it again: I don't care who's writing the comic. If Liefield is inflicting his awfulness on the art I shall stay ffffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr away. Comics are primarily a visual medium and I while I can make some allowances for the story against lacklustre art, strikingly awful art is simply out of the question. I would not buy a Liefield drawn comic if Zombie Jorge Luis Borges' wrote it, but I could buy a comic written by Chuck Austen if had an exceptional artist like Frank Quitely or Moebius. (Hereby gazing upon the pretty pictures while ignoring the Lovecraftian horrors that lurk within the word balloons.)

That said, what would it take to get Austen and Liefield to do a comic together? They're clearly made for each other.

[El Chupacabra]

I thought this issue was awful compared to previous Teen Titans issues. The art was bad, as we all knew it would be, but the story wasn't much better. Only getting these so I don't have a 2 issue gap.

[JLarson]

I thought Liefeld`s work on Teen Titans was awsome. I cant wait for issue 28.i wish he was on the title full time but i know he has deadline problems.If Marvel can wait For Bryan Hitch to finnish his pages of the Ultimates, cant DC wait for Leifeld to finnish his pages.(Leifeld is a much better artist than Hitch IMO) than maybe we could have him back full time on an ongoing.Put Leifeld on Gothem Central and you will see the sales go way up

That's one of the worst ideas I've ever had the misfortune of being exposed to.

And no, I'm not supporting Liefeld in any possible way. I won't be buying the TPB that contains these issues either.

[KJ_81]

I actually disliked the story more than the art.

[kane]

I actually disliked the story more than the art.

I agree.

The art was okay (not very good, but okay). But the writing was bad (and hawk and dove don´t interest me).

[Sharcque]

Awesome book!!!!

[Brian Cronin]

I gave the issue as much of a detailed, objective, reading as I could (http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2005/08/teen-titans-27-two-out-of-three-is-bad.html), and yeah, I did not like it.

-Brian

[Samurai]

Except for the bowling scene, which I liked, I thought the story was poorly done. We had practically no introduction to the new villains... who are they, where did they get their powers (and what are their powers, in some cases), what are their motivations, etc? If you aren't going to take the time to properly introduce new chracters, just use established ones. No need to kill them off, just have Kestral choose 2 and leave the other 2 in the truck shouting "Hey, free me too! Hello? Anyone still out there...?" And why have Kestral somehow steal Raven's soul self, a power he hasn't shown before, when he could have leaped into Raven's body and taken it over, a power he HAS shown before? Plus, some of the dialogue was just terrible, like Server Aja being described as the child of a wealthy Chinese industrialist and talking about the "glorious beauty" of cyborg's technology to, 1 page later, talking like a street kid... "Server Aja don't crash like dat"? And what was up with that line "Stand back! I--- antimatter grenades!"? So overall, I give the story a C-/D+.

The art.... What to say that hasn't already been said? Stiff, posed characters. Very poor panel layout in some cases, the worst being the next to last page... can anyone tell me what order the panels are supposed to be read in? Counting from 1 in the upper left corner to 5 in the bottom right, I'm guessing it's supposed to go 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, just going by the dialogue. But that page is a complete mess as far as organization goes. Liefeld's proportions have improved somewhat from his earlier days... he draws feet now, instead of just letting the leg come to a point, for instance. And some of the faces were nicely done. But overall, Liefeld still isn't a favorite artist of mine... score: C- /D+.

So, the hope that the story would be great and balance out the art didn't pan out... both were sub-par IMHO.

[muimi]

I've had Teen Titans on pull for awhile. And I'm new enough to comics that the Liefield announcement didn't detract nor entice me. Now, Gail Simone guest writing it was enough to get me excited for it. I'll gladly suffer thru any artist for her writing.

That being said, I really ought to swing by the comic store and pick my copy up.

[Sean Whitmore]

I hesitate to even mention Liefeld's art, since it's almost beside the point. Going into detail about how horribly bad it is just makes it sound like there was ever any chance it might have been good.

So, on to the story. When did Kestrel become such an A-List baddie? I fondly remember the original Hawk and Dove mini...well, okay, I remmber it, at any rate...and they seemed to take him down pretty easily. Now all of a sudden he's a threat to the entire Titans team, with the JLA on standby?

And while this wasn't Gail's fault, we need to see how the Titans met this new Hawk and Dove PDQ. Seeing them interact as old friends is just confusing and weird (so one of them lives in London and the other in America? is this the first long-distance super hero duo?).


SEAN

[Brian Cronin]

Sean, while it wasn't made perfectly clear, I think this is actually the SECOND Dove, from the Hawk and Dove mini-series.

Johns brought her back in the pages of JSA, and since obviously, anyone who reads Teen Titans HAS to read every other Johns book, we should have known that Dove is apparently back to being Dove again, along with her estranged sister from England.

Please note, though, as I said above, I read the book three times, so don't feel weird if it wasn't clear upon the first reading. :)

-Brian

[Sean Whitmore]

Sean, while it wasn't made perfectly clear, I think this is actually the SECOND Dove, from the Hawk and Dove mini-series.


Holy hell, I never made that connection. Even from their appearance in the Dr. Light story.

I suppose in retrospect calling her "Dawn" should have been a dead giveaway. :o But since I don't remember her having a redheaded British sister, I just assumed she was all-new as well.

Was Holly ever mentioned in the old days, or is she strictly a Johns creation?


SEAN

[Gaz]

Sean, while it wasn't made perfectly clear, I think this is actually the SECOND Dove, from the Hawk and Dove mini-series.

Johns brought her back in the pages of JSA, and since obviously, anyone who reads Teen Titans HAS to read every other Johns book, we should have known that Dove is apparently back to being Dove again, along with her estranged sister from England.

Please note, though, as I said above, I read the book three times, so don't feel weird if it wasn't clear upon the first reading. :)

-Brian
To be fair,Brian, she was also in the big team up against Doctor Light, and had a brief scene at the end.

[Brian Cronin]

Like I said, don't feel weird, I didn't make the connection either until, like, the third reading. :D

Mainly because their first appearance, McKone made them look like they were young teens.

And no, the sister is a Johns invention.

Would have been nice to, you know, EXPLAIN SOME OF THIS IN ANY OF THEIR APPEARANCES....but que sera, sera.

-Brian

[megatonjustice]

Teen Titans is on my regular pull list. BUT my local store allowed anyone who wished to put the Liefeld issues back on the shelf. I'll make sure it isn't even ordered for me next month. So the order will be at least one smaller.


(Edited because I didn't make any sense the first time.)

[protonik]

Well, to be fair to Rob on Hawk & Dove, they aren't teens. Dove was a student at Georgetown University last time she was seen alive and she appeared to be more than a Freshman to me, even by the dialogue and the fact that her friends were ordering beer in the bar and offering her a drink. As another lets be fair to Rob other artist draw the Titans as being between 12 and 15 when in fact the youngest is Bart who is about 15 while Robin has had his license since the whole Knightfall incident and recently had a b-day in his own comic, making him AT LEAST 17. I don't know a lot of 17 year old guys with as much baby fat as these artists portray Robin as having. With the girls, they do mature much faster than boys so Cassie would indeed be fully developed and I know quite a few 16 year olds that look like Cassie. In this day and age you have to ask for ID to make sure the girl you are talking to is of age.

But lets talk SUperboy... no dissing Rob for making physical changes to the characters when McKone changed Superboy from a wiry teen ager to a beefcake football player build. Before McKone Kon El was portrayed as being the same height and build as Robin and is in fact from what I remember STUCK at 16. McKone's version of SUperboy looks like he is about 18, ready for college and to play linebacker for the Giants in a few years. Now correct me if I am wrong on the stuck at 16 thing, been a long time since I read Superboy, but it was a favourite of mine during the Kesel/Grummett runs though I missed a chunk of the end of their last run because of money reasons.

Jason

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, to be fair to Rob on Hawk & Dove, they aren't teens.


Oh, nobody's faulting Rob for that. It was McKone's mistake, making Dawn look like a teenager (and thus, unrecognizable) a few issues back.


But lets talk SUperboy... no dissing Rob for making physical changes to the characters when McKone changed Superboy from a wiry teen ager to a beefcake football player build.


I agree with you about the beefy Superboy look...I'm also not a fan. But to give credit where credit is due, at least McKone's beefy Superboy always looked to have human proportions, which Rob can't say. :)

As for the stuck at 16 thing, that was done away with during the Young Justice days. Kon can age now, which is why he's developing heat vision and the like. Which I guess is better in the long run, but I do kinda miss Kesel's "Peter Pan" take on the character.


SEAN

[protonik]

Thanks for the correction Shawn, it is greatly appreciated, like I said, I kind of lost touch with the guy. I didn't see anything non-human or disproportionate in Rob's sketches of Superboy though. FUnny aside, Superboy was originally created to parody ROb, I think it would be GREAT to see Rob draw a Superboy mini that just kind of goes over the top in that parody of himself while still making sense. I think it would be perfect! He even had the same haircut and everything. I miss the original Superboy costume (maybe minus the coat) and cockiness. He is too angsty now, he used to be so much fun.

[Guts/Batman]

Wouldn't you be angsty too if you found out you have the blood of your "fathers" worst enemy in you?

[Sean Whitmore]

I didn't see anything non-human or disproportionate in Rob's sketches of Superboy though.


Superboy wasn't in the issue, was he? Are there online images of next month's issue, or did Rob do another Superboy story?


SEAN

[stealthwise]

Bring on the bowel cancer!

[Brian Cronin]

Superboy wasn't in the issue, was he? Are there online images of next month's issue, or did Rob do another Superboy story?


SEAN

I believe he is referring to sketches that Liefeld did of the Titans.

-Brian

[protonik]

Wouldn't you be angsty too if you found out you have the blood of your "fathers" worst enemy in you?

I understand why he is played that, Graduation day was meant to change the characters forever. ALso, Superman would be more like his brother, same with Lex... that whole Father thing was just weird...

Jason

[protonik]

I believe he is referring to sketches that Liefeld did of the Titans.

-Brian

Yes I am referring to the sketches Rob posted at www.robliefeld.net

[Gilda Dent]

I bought Gail Simone's Teen Titans. It's Teen Titans, written by Gail Simone, so I'd buy it regardless of who the artist is.

Gilda

[Samurai]

I bought Gail Simone's Teen Titans. It's Teen Titans, written by Gail Simone, so I'd buy it regardless of who the artist is.

Gilda
You can judge for yourself, but IMHO the story was as poor as the art... I gave both a C-/D+

[Kriminal]

I don't read Teen Titans but friends of mine own a comic shop so we flipped through it, made a few jokes (as Liefeld jokes are always in season), and tossed it back on the shelves for some other poor schmoe to lay cash on.

Not nearly as staggeringly dunce and hilarious as Liefeld's recent X-Force story though.

[protonik]

To be fair, even as poor as X-Force wound up being, it wasn't originally supposed to be a single series and out. Originally Rob had plotted out two, with a possible third miniseries but opted out of the sequel that as far as I know Marvel still wants to do as the first one was such a commercial success. Rob laid the foundations for the second mini in the first couple of issues and then had to dump them. He tried to get an extra issue in order to wrap up the loose ends but Marvel wouldn't give it to him. He did leave Marvel amicably.

Jason

[Jamescush]

I bought it. :D
I liked Liefield's earlier work, but this was just bad.
And what happened to the story? I normally like Gail's work, but there was something missing here. :(

[K'Nort]

The story didn't grab me either.

And I know Liefeld is famous with the feet, but I don't remember him only having one mouth in his repetoire -- blow-up dolls. It got distracting.

And yes, the cyber chick looked like Void from Wildcats. Kestrel was pretty darned Cyberforce himself but I don't remember what he normally looks like.

I thought the muscletone was actually toned down, all things considered.

[protonik]

The story didn't grab me either.

And I know Liefeld is famous with the feet, but I don't remember him only having one mouth in his repetoire -- blow-up dolls. It got distracting.

And yes, the cyber chick looked like Void from Wildcats. Kestrel was pretty darned Cyberforce himself but I don't remember what he normally looks like.

I thought the muscletone was actually toned down, all things considered.

Kestrel looked like Kestrel from the old series... as in Ditko.

Jason

[Bakema NL]

Bought it and enjoyed the art more than the story really. Liefeld is not the best artist around, but no way near the worst either imo and this book was certainly not bad at all. But it's fashionable to hate Liefeld, some sort of guilty pleasure thing in comic book fandom...........tiresome really.

[Sean Whitmore]

But it's fashionable to hate Liefeld, some sort of guilty pleasure thing in comic book fandom...........tiresome really.


Yeah, that's all it is. I only hate Liefeld because all the cool kids on MTV are doing it.


SEAN

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Say what you want about Liefeld, but his name still sells (This is the first issue of TT in a LOOONG time that is completely sold out at my two LCSs a couple of days after it got out.

(I know that Gail Simone's name helped too, but seeing how Birds Of Prey never moves this way, at least at my store...)

http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINbanner.gif

[Forsaken_One]

Say what you want about Liefeld, but his name still sells (This is the first issue of TT in a LOOONG time that is completely sold out at my two LCSs a couple of days after it got out.

(I know that Gail Simone's name helped too, but seeing how Birds Of Prey never moves this way, at least at my store...)
Yes, but artistic merit and sales are two entierly seperate beasts. After all, 1/2 of all paperbacks printed are romance novels. ;)

[Bakema NL]

Yeah, that's all it is. I only hate Liefeld because all the cool kids on MTV are doing it.


SEAN

Of course you knew I was talking about the comic book community.......which isn't considered cool at all to begin with. So it's saying something that even in this small community people do show the same sort of behaviour as in any other community of subculture, whatever.
Of course people don't like his work because of whatever their reasons, to each his own, but it certainly is a favorite topic, guilty pleasure almost, to hate Rob Liefeld. Not everybody is guilty of it, but a lot are.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Yes, but artistic merit and sales are two entierly seperate beasts. After all, 1/2 of all paperbacks printed are romance novels. ;)

I agree, I wasn't defending Liefeld...just thought it was curious that in spite of all tha hate, he still rocks the sales ( I wonder if many people buy his books just so they can make fun of them...?)

[Deathstroke]

The book is on my pull list.

I'm referring to the comic as the All-Cable issue.

[Forsaken_One]

I agree, I wasn't defending Liefeld...just thought it was curious that in spite of all tha hate, he still rocks the sales ( I wonder if many people buy his books just so they can make fun of them...?)
Not many I'd guess.

The fact is the people who are the loudest are those who absolutely hate or absolutely love an artist and think that, damnit, you should feel that way too. So in a medium where the people have to chose to speak out you're going to get primarily one or the other, with those of us who don't really give a crap staying silent because... we don't really give a crap. ;)

As a note, that's also why arguing things on a BBS is so pointless; you're just yelling at people who either agree with you or disagree in the strongest terms, with all the fence sitters ignoring the thread.

[WINSTRONG]

I must say that I am highly offended at DC Comics for what they have done with Teen Titans and Rob Liefeld. Now, I have never really been very much of a Liefeld fan, but I must say that the Teen Titans issue I just picked up might possibly be the absolute worst art I have ever had the displeasure to view.

Not only could Rob NOT be bothered to actually draw any backgrounds (inserted stills of buildings), but the story telling and layout were absolutely ridiculous. It looked like a bunch of VERY mediocre pin-ups done with a ball point pen or something. The story was extremely confusing and the inconsistancies in the art, I thought were just plain lazy and disrespectful to the characters.

Rob is supposed to be some huge Titans fan, but its clear he just blasted through the art in about a half hour or so. It seemed more important to get paid than to do his best work. Rob's earlier stuff (YoungBlood, X-Force, etc.) though not my favorite work was still MILES better than his latest fiasco.

Now, although I find that type of attitude terrible, the one that all of us should REALLY be offended at is DC comics for allowing that calibur of art and storytelling to be published. How many aspiring comic book artists have submitted work 50 times better than Rob's atrocity, only to have been turned down time and time again because an editor told them to "Work on their anatomy" or "Make your story telling more clear" or "You're just not at professional level yet" etc. I'm not saying they should let sub standard art through, in fact I'm saying that they shouldn't . . . even if it's done by a so-called celebrity.

To publish this low of a standard of art is a slap in the face to every artist who has dreamed of drawing comics. I find that highly offesive.

Does anyone else?

[The Shadow]

Oh look... another anti-Liefeld thread.

How original.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=75749&highlight=teen+titans+liefeld

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=76383&highlight=teen+titans+liefeld

Some of us LIKED the art, liked the story and liked the issue overall. Is Liefeld the BEST artist ever? No... is he the worse? Hardly.

[The Defenestrator]

Well, it's bad, but I honestly have seen worse. And besides, some people really dig Liefeld's art. Just because a lot of people don't like it, that doesn't mean there isn't anyone who likes it. I reckon Liefeld fans weren't offended. And it's smart sales too, as a lot of people wanted to observe the spectacle of a good character writer combined with a... less renowned character artist. I just think of it the same way I do every time a company picks a creative team I'm not in love with, no need for any extra upset.

Of course, that could just be because we know it's only for two issues.

[Donald M.]

It's Liefeld art, but isn't Gail Simone writing it?

Great writing can salvage crappy artwork.

Liefeld still gets work for two reasons I figure. First, plenty of people genuinely like his stuff. There's much to be said about high-quality artwork, but not everyone is hung up on superheroes with precise anotomy. Second, even many of the people who hate his stuff will the buy the books, if only to have something (else) to complain about.

[protonik]

If you are offended by a comic book you have invested waaaaaaaaaay too much energy and emotion into the book, psychologically you reaaaaalllllllllly need to get help. Especially if this issue offended you. I can understand maybe being offended by a book that takes a crap all over your religion (happens to me all the time, ANYTIME Aleister Crowley is brought up ANYWHERE but in Crowley circles) or you personally. My advice is to shut the hell up and see a doctor.

Jason

[protonik]

The reason Liefeld gets work is he sells himself to the editors, which is just as important as having decent skills as an artist and because when he comes on a book sales go up. Example: Waid's Captain America was doing 54000, Cap was borderline cancelled at that point and barely registering on the charts (and this is how bad those times really were as fas as numbers acrss the board here) while Liefeld's first issue sold 500,000 plus. His Wolverine, a title that had dropped to the lower half of the top 20 was number 3 on the charts with his issues. His Cable almost doubled Casey and Ladronn from the first issue, before the 12 storyline! He has said someone at DC informed him sales on Teen Titans were up 10% over the regular orders.

Jason

[WINSTRONG]

The offense was at DC for publishing art that was under their own standards. I'll agree that it was agood marketing move. I know that. I know lots of folks love Rob (and I don't have anything against him personally). But I don't think his art was even up to his own standards. I've seen him do MUCH better.

Oh well, maybe I do need to see a doctor.

[Bat-Mite]

is he the worse?

Vox Populi says "yes" so far.

[Donald M.]

The reason Liefeld gets work is he sells himself to the editors, which is just as important as having decent skills as an artist and because when he comes on a book sales go up.
Jason

But that's not him "selling himself to editors". That's editors bringing him in because his books sell.

[xnef1025]

Read it... or at least attempted to. Put it back and didn't buy. Gail's writing couldn't save it. Lack of backgrounds? No problem. Bad anatomy? So what. But comics are supposed to be "sequential" art. It actually started pretty strong. The initial fight scene was standard Liefeld, but still held together sequentially, but it fell apart partway through the book and devolved into random pinups.

[bedbugjones]

Who Cares Lolololo

[titanfan]

It's Liefeld art, but isn't Gail Simone writing it?

Great writing can salvage crappy artwork.

I don't know if it was the art or what, but it definitely was not Gail's best work either. :( The art actually exceeded my really really low expectations, but the story didn't live up to my high ones.

[jerrymcl89]

I don't really think it's worth being offended by, although I didn't like it very much. It's not like they made him the regular artist or anything. The recent regular art on 'Green Arrow' was worse, IMO.

[The Shadow]

But comics are supposed to be "sequential" art. It actually started pretty strong. The initial fight scene was standard Liefeld, but still held together sequentially, but it fell apart partway through the book and devolved into random pinups.
So you must HATE Jim Lee (Hush was a series of pin ups... so was his Superman), Marc Silvestri, Michael Turner, Rags Morales and all those popular guys then... because there are only a handful of TRUE sequential storytellers. Neal Adams, John Byrne, Will Eisner, Jack Kirby, John Buscema, Joe Kubert, Don Newton, Jim Aparo, Alan Davis... and a few newer guys like Cassaday seem to be able to do it.

But to single out one artist above em all is unfair... especially when they are all guilty of the same infraction.

[xnef1025]

So you must HATE Jim Lee (Hush was a series of pin ups... so was his Superman), Marc Silvestri, Michael Turner, Rags Morales and all those popular guys then... because there are only a handful of TRUE sequential storytellers. Neal Adams, John Byrne, Will Eisner, Jack Kirby, John Buscema, Joe Kubert, Don Newton, Jim Aparo, Alan Davis... and a few newer guys like Cassaday seem to be able to do it.

But to single out one artist above em all is unfair... especially when they are all guilty of the same infraction.
Yeah, my taste for those particular artists has lessened as I've gotten older, but at least with those guys I can follow the panel layout. Liefeld's layouts in the later parts of the book were darn near unintelligible. I didn't know what order to read the page in half the time. I'm really hoping sales on part two of this story bomb all to hell so the next time Rob gets a job, he'll actually have to WORK, instead of just scribbling crap. He gets a worse rap than he should because bashing him is kewl, but for this book, he deserves it.

[The Shadow]

Yeah, my taste for those particular artists has lessened as I've gotten older, but at least with those guys I can follow the panel layout. Liefeld's layouts in the later parts of the book were darn near unintelligible. I didn't know what order to read the page in half the time. I'm really hoping sales on part two of this story bomb all to hell so the next time Rob gets a job, he'll actually have to WORK, instead of just scribbling crap. He gets a worse rap than he should because bashing him is kewl, but for this book, he deserves it.
Well... different strokes I guess because I enjoyed it.

[Paradox]

protonik say something strange:

Kestrel looked like Kestrel from the old series... as in Ditko.

Since Kestrel was created by Kesel and Leifeld in 1988, I don't know to what you are referring.

And, yeah, this was a god-awful book. I couldn't believe how many faces he was relying on "straight on" shots with, how bad his anatomy still was (sorry, Rob, people...particularly women...do NOT have three foot thighs) and how bad the storytelling/layout was. Gail didn't do enough to salvage this (not sure she could).

[Guts/Batman]

Show of hands: Do my fellow CBRers feel as I do?

Outsiders 26, 27 and Teen Titans 27, 28 are being done the way they are being done so that DC can say that the TT and Outsider's we're busy doing their thing in Outer Space (Return of Donna Troy).

An attempt to fit Return of Donna Troy into current IC continuity?

[Sharcque]

Here you have it:

(20) TEEN TITANS
08/ 2003: Teen Titans #2 -- 61,528
-----------------------------------
08/ 2004: Teen Titans #14 -- 63,894 (-2.7%)
09/ 2004: Teen Titans #15 -- 63,136 (-1.2%)
09/ 2004: Teen Titans #16 -- 64,177 (+1.7%)
10/ 2004: Teen Titans #17 -- 63,154 (-1.6%)
11/ 2004: Teen Titans #18 -- 61,537 (-2.6%)
12/ 2004: Teen Titans #19 -- 62,585 (+1.7%)
01/ 2005: Teen Titans #20 -- 65,953 (+5.4%)
02/ 2005: Teen Titans #21 -- 66,861 (+1.4%)
03/ 2005: Teen Titans #22 -- 67,780 (+1.4%)
04/ 2005: Teen Titans #23 -- 66,802 (-1.4%)
05/ 2005: Teen Titans #24 -- 69,046 (+3.4%)
06/ 2005: Teen Titans #25 -- 70,542 (+2.2%)
07/ 2005: Teen Titans #26 -- 68,353 (-3.1%)
08/ 2005: Teen Titans #27 -- 74,782 (+9.4%)

[Paul Newell]

Have what??

[Sharcque]

The Liefeld/Simone issue's numbers.

[Sharcque]

So no one has anything to say about the Liefeld issue being the highest selling TT since issue #1?

[Guts/Batman]

So no one has anything to say about the Liefeld issue being the highest selling TT since issue #1?

I find it..disturbing.

[The Shadow]

So no one has anything to say about the Liefeld issue being the highest selling TT since issue #1?
I'm glad!

I like Rob and think Gail is one of the best writers in comics today

[Guts/Batman]

I'm glad!

I like Rob and think Gail is one of the best writers in comics today

Beats Johns, eh? ;)

[DouglasDanger]

rob has quite the following, for whatever reason. There is also a very large group of people who find his stuff hilariously bad and buy it for the sake of mockery.

[The Shadow]

Beats Johns, eh? ;)
TOUGH call...

Actually my favorite writer is Mark Waid

[Matt Algren]

So no one has anything to say about the Liefeld issue being the highest selling TT since issue #1?
I'd've been surprised if it hadn't sold better. Frankly, the numbers are good, but not earth-shattering.

If the new readers stick around, it was a great stunt for all involved. If not, it wasn't. The important numbers belong to the issue after Liefeld's. It'll be interesting to see how long the bump holds.

[Captain Jim]

I don't find it too surprising. I didn't expect to see many retailers drop their numbers because, honestly, most fans are too big of completists not to pick it up for two months. Add to that a handful of extra people who will pick it up because of Hawk & Dove and/or Liefield and/or Simone, and you automatically have an increase.

[The Shadow]

I don't find it too surprising. I didn't expect to see many retailers drop their numbers because, honestly, most fans are too big of completists not to pick it up for two months. Add to that a handful of extra people who will pick it up because of Hawk & Dove and/or Liefield and/or Simone, and you automatically have an increase.
Did you get it Capn' Jim?

[Captain Jim]

No, but it had nothing to do with the creators. I am not a completist and don't make a policy of buying fill-in stories.

And before some wiseguy makes a crack about me posting about a book I didn't read... I simply gave my reaction to the sales figures, obvioulsy not something that requires an intimate knowledge of the book.

[Guts/Batman]

What wiseguy would make such a crack? ;) :p

[The Grey Man]

I buy them anyway and certainly wouldn't stop buying them just because of Liefield's artwork. I admit that some aspects of his work can be annoying but I do think he conveys action & movement well.

Truth be told even if I didn't collect this book I would pick it up just for Hawk & Dove. I loved their book and I'm hoping that they do another run with this new pair. I started a thread about them a while back but there are still a lot of unanswered questions i'd like to see cleared up.

I am far from convinced that Hank Hall is dead and i've got my fingers crossed that his resurrection and rehabilitation into the DC superhero fold is not far off.

Turning heros bad is getting a bit old now. I wonder which Teen Titan will be next to go bad. My money is on Beast Boy.