The last Male and Female Kryptonian-How Come No One Is Discussing The Obvious?

[Dhusk]

I've discussed my dislike for the current Supergirl in other threads, BUT...if we take her origin seriously, doesn't this raise some very serious issues here?

Clark and Kara are the last survivors of a million-year-old culture, the only remaining carriers of DNA from a destroyed race (Superboy doesn't count--he's a human/Kryptonian hybrid). When they die, there will be no more Kryptonians, EVER.

How come no one has even brought up the possibility that they could restart the Kryptonian race? If you and your cousin were the last human beings alive on a planet full of aliens, I bet the subject would come up a lot, no matter how much you might dislike each other. Even if Clark and Kara don't want to get all hot and sticky, they could still use artificial means--artificial insemination, and/or even surrogate mothers. Could even be a roundabout way for Lois to get pregnant...

And no BS about them being cousins. We're talking about survival of a whole race here...

[cactusmaac]

Not worth the ick factor.

[Nessor Sille]

Also, science fiction author Larry Niven answered the question "why not?" pretty conclusively in his infamous "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" essay some years ago.

[MatthewC]

Clark and Kara are the last survivors of a million-year-old culture, the only remaining carriers of DNA from a destroyed race (Superboy doesn't count--he's a human/Kryptonian hybrid). When they die, there will be no more Kryptonians, EVER.

How come no one has even brought up the possibility that they could restart the Kryptonian race?

Why should Superman give a flying fig about the survival of the Kryptonian race?

You started off by saying that Clark and Kara are the last survivors of a million-year-old culture, but that's not exactly true. Kara is, but Clark is culturally human. He thinks of himself as human, and humans aren't in any danger of dying out. (Cue jokes about the near-destruction of the earth every few months in the DC Universe.)

So where's the benefit of continuing the Kryptonian race? Other than a raw emotional response of, "It's sad when a species dies out," how will the universe be a poorer place without Kryptonian genetics flying around?

Clark might kind of wish there were more Kryptonians in an abstract way, but not enough to make that kind of child-rearing committment over it. Kara will probably worry about it, eventually, but she has a lot of other things to think about right now.

Any anyone else? Why should anyone else care?

[Dhusk]

Why should Superman give a flying fig about the survival of the Kryptonian race?

You started off by saying that Clark and Kara are the last survivors of a million-year-old culture, but that's not exactly true. Kara is, but Clark is culturally human. He thinks of himself as human, and humans aren't in any danger of dying out. (Cue jokes about the near-destruction of the earth every few months in the DC Universe.)

So where's the benefit of continuing the Kryptonian race? Other than a raw emotional response of, "It's sad when a species dies out," how will the universe be a poorer place without Kryptonian genetics flying around?

Clark might kind of wish there were more Kryptonians in an abstract way, but not enough to make that kind of child-rearing committment over it. Kara will probably worry about it, eventually, but she has a lot of other things to think about right now.

Any anyone else? Why should anyone else care?


Doesn't Superman have a huge fortress chock full of kryptonian artifacts and recreations of kryptonian life that he built himself? Didn't he teach himself to speak Kryptonese even when ther was no one else to speak it to? Wasn't he tempted to stay behiond on the faux-krypton created by Brainiac?

Sounds to me he cares a great deal of krypton's culture and krypton's heritage.

[Dhusk]

Also, science fiction author Larry Niven answered the question "why not?" pretty conclusively in his infamous "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" essay some years ago.

Actually, he asked the same thing I am here, cuz even 35 years ago it was a pretty obvious question. His conclusion is Clark and Kara wouldn't do anything is cuz they were cousins, and that would be dastardly, but then suggested that Superman clone himself and have the emrbyo implanted in his abdomen and carry the child to term himself. Niven ended the essay with the description of a very pregnant Superman flying around Metropolis... =\

[Nessor Sille]

He also stated that it would be unfair to burden a teenage girl with motherhood, especially when there's the problem of who the baby would have to obtain offspring with?

[Gauss]

Also, science fiction author Larry Niven answered the question "why not?" pretty conclusively in his infamous "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" essay some years ago.

Huh. I always thought that applied to Lois and other human women.

Anyway, even if Clark and Kara were both interested in the idea, it probably wouldn't work. You can't jump-start an entire race with just two individuals, because you end up with all sorts of issues related to inbreeding and genetic weaknesses. Heck, the Amish started off with a lot more people, and they've got diseases we don't even have names for cropping up in their population.

Still, if you want to see this sort of thing (sort of), check out Supergirl: Many Happy Returns.

[Pariah128]

You have to think it would probably be a bad idea, how many kryptonians knew they had dormant powers laying inside them? how would this effect them when they find out all they need is a yellow sun? not all of them will be as responsible as clark or kara, I mean the devastation they could cause would be immense, im looking at the bigger picture here..what if hundreds of years later a kryptonian army is formed even? they could decimate the entire universe, plus if they put all their intelligence together they could probably find even more ways to amp their abilities and to get around kryptonite

[Pariah128]

Huh. I always thought that applied to Lois and other human women.

Anyway, even if Clark and Kara were both interested in the idea, it probably wouldn't work. You can't jump-start an entire race with just two individuals, because you end up with all sorts of issues related to inbreeding and genetic weaknesses. Heck, the Amish started off with a lot more people, and they've got diseases we don't even have names for cropping up in their population.

Still, if you want to see this sort of thing (sort of), check out Supergirl: Many Happy Returns.

but wouldnt being under a yellow sun prevent almost all disease?

also I think superman and lois could have sex without him killing her, remember all his powers are active besides invulnerability, so he can control his strength

[davids]

Bedding your first cousin is only one step above bedding your sister, both ideas are discussting! and not to mention illegal! [at least in most civilized countries!]

Besides supes is married to a real woman, why the hell would he want a 15 year old skinny ass teen ager! MAYOR YECCCHH! FACTOR!

[Dhusk]

Bedding your first cousin is only one step above bedding your sister, both ideas are discussting! and not to mention illegal! [at least in most civilized countries!]

Besides supes is married to a real woman, why the hell would he want a 15 year old skinny ass teen ager! MAYOR YECCCHH! FACTOR!

#1: first cousins doing naughty things isn't considered illegal or yucky in many parts of the world, including many parts of europe. It just depends on your culture.

#2: I thought kara was somewhere between 16 and 18, and she sure the heck isn't currently drawn like a 15 year old. Besides, I don't imagine it'd be a big deal if they waited a few years

#3: You DO realize Superman already has an offspring running around the DC universe for some 15 years now, and that the other "parent" of said offspring was another MAN, right? How come you're not getting all upset and offended at that?

#4: I did mention artificial means of conception are available to them, so naughty stuff between them would not necessarily have to occur.

[Pariah128]

what offspring? Konner isnt offspring, he's a clone

[Dhusk]

what offspring? Konner isnt offspring, he's a clone

Clones are indeed classified as offspring. Besides, Conner's not a clone, he's a human/kryptonian hybrid. The Human genetic donor was Lex Luthor. Superboy technically has TWO fathers, and no mother.

[Pariah128]

Clones are indeed classified as offspring. Besides, Conner's not a clone, he's a human/kryptonian hybrid. The Human genetic donor was Lex Luthor. Superboy technically has TWO fathers, and no mother.


Where are they classified as offspring? having offspring means someones related to you, genetically speaking they share some of the same traits, a clone is an exact genetic duplicate of the person or persons, which isnt the same thing, superboy's parents are technically clarks kryptonian parents and lex's parents

[Gauss]

Where are they classified as offspring? having offspring means someones related to you, genetically speaking they share some of the same traits, a clone is an exact genetic duplicate of the person or persons, which isnt the same thing, superboy's parents are technically clarks kryptonian parents and lex's parents

When life first started evolving, the theory is that most organisms reproduced by asexual reproduction, basically splitting into two identical duplicates of themselves. And normal reproduction consists of taking two sets of DNA and combining them to create a new organism.

So there's a reasonable argument that Conner is the offspring of Lex and Clark. But really, how weird is that thought? :) Just stick to "Superman's clone (with Luthor DNA +1)" and let's leave it at that.

[Deskad]

Why would any of this be an issue even, so long as there is a yellow sun, and there will always be yellow stars, Clark is immortal, and so is Kara.

Thus, Kryptonians will never vanish.

[Dhusk]

When life first started evolving, the theory is that most organisms reproduced by asexual reproduction, basically splitting into two identical duplicates of themselves. And normal reproduction consists of taking two sets of DNA and combining them to create a new organism.

So there's a reasonable argument that Conner is the offspring of Lex and Clark. But really, how weird is that thought? :) Just stick to "Superman's clone (with Luthor DNA +1)" and let's leave it at that.

There's no denying that Superman and Luthor having a child together is weird thought--but this seems to be pretty much exactly what happened. Heck, recently Luthor himself has begun referring to Conner as "his boy" and talking in a paternal context toward Superboy. Granted, he's a very evil kind of father figure, but that IS essentially what he is to Conner, at least genetically.

If Conner had been a straight clone of Clark, he could just be considered Clark's twin brother. If his DNA was just switched around a bit without an outside donor via genetic engineering, as was the original explanation way back when, he could maybe considered a fraternal sibling or cousin. But the fact is Superman's DNA was completely integrated with second set of DNA to produce Connor, much the same way half of your DNA came from your father and half came from your mother.

I don't think there's really any other way to classify his biological relationship to Clark. Conner may have been gestated by purely artificial means without Superman's consent or knowledge, but the fact is technically Conner is Clark's son.

I know some people will be upset at this thought, and current DC will probably never have the spine to actually acknowledge anything like this, but if they did this could make for some great stories.

[Captain Smith]

Stayed tuned for the Dukes of Krypton or do you want to see a Deliverance version with Kryptonians making you squeal like a pig?

Anyway, we still don't know if she really is Kara Zor-el in the classic sense with all the hints being dropped.

There are plenty of Kryptonians floating around in Hypertime (when that comes back and it will).

[Zeta]

Why bother, since Daxamites are still running around in the far flung future?

[Pariah128]

Why bother, since Daxamites are still running around in the far flung future?


but superman could theoretically kill a daxamite with a pencil

[Pariah128]

When life first started evolving, the theory is that most organisms reproduced by asexual reproduction, basically splitting into two identical duplicates of themselves. And normal reproduction consists of taking two sets of DNA and combining them to create a new organism.

So there's a reasonable argument that Conner is the offspring of Lex and Clark. But really, how weird is that thought? :) Just stick to "Superman's clone (with Luthor DNA +1)" and let's leave it at that.

But this isnt normal reproduction, its cloning, I can see how luthor might feel a father like BOND, but technically he isnt his father, if anything maybe a half brother or something, but superman has never shown the slightest hint that he considers konner his son

[trickster]

Also, science fiction author Larry Niven answered the question "why not?" pretty conclusively in his infamous "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" essay some years ago.

Well, no. He said that he'd never be able to have kids with an earth woman. Which made sense. Now with Kara, that is a whole different ballgame...

[Ms. M]

Even if Superman and Kara did have kids (which is only speculative cause its never going to happen), what would those kids do when they grow up? Have children with each other? The only viable thing is for Clark and Kara to have offspring with mates from another race and let the Kryptonian race live on in diluted form.

And the weirdness with Conner is why I really believe that his character is going to be killed off in the next few years, possibly in Infinite Crisis. There's enough homoerotic tension in the Smallville TV series between Clark and Lex.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What´s the minimum # of specimens you have to have in a sample so your offspring won´t risk inbreeding, 30? 300?

[Gilda Dent]

A gene pool of 2 is far too small to restart a species. Given that they are 1st cousins, it's actually slightly less than that, as they share about 1/8 of their genes. Given that they appear to be from the same ethnic group, this narrows the gene pool somewhat also.

I read one discussion of the minimum size of the gene pool needed to fully populate a new planet with the human species, assuming that children would be concieved and borne naturally. The conclusion was mixed, with answers varying from 30 to 150 as the minimum. You'd want no two people to be any more closely related than first cousins, and you'd want as many differing ethnicities as possible. You would want to breed the first two to three generations selectively, mixing ethnicities whereever possible to create as rich a gene pool in the offspring as reasonable, meaning that monogamous relationships would be impractical for breeding purposes.

And there would be some very interesting adjustments to the society that emerged, at least for the first couple of generations.

Gilda

[Ekko]

Can Kryptonians and Daxamites reproduce?

[d00m]

Does Krytonian reproduction/childbirth work the same as it does for humans?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

If we go by present day examples, our primate ancestors didn´t form large communities/groups, 30 at the most.
Assuming that the mutation stroke a selected group of primates instead of the entire area of the Great Rift, then 30 could be a resonable number to start a new species.

[Pariah128]

If anything they could begin to produce kryptonian/meta hybrids, I dont think kryptonians can get humans pregnant but im pretty sure they can get metas..since didnt maxima want supermans kid?

[Bicycle-Repairman]

Could Kryptonians and Daxamites interbreed? In the fantasy world of comics, interspecies breeding is common. In reality, however, animal hybrids are rare. Only some closely related species can mate, and the resulting offspring are usually infertile. There are a few exceptions, and the definition of what constitutes a species is open to debate.

A Kryptonian-Daxamite hybrid immune to both kryptonite and lead would be almost unstoppable, and an intriguing concept for a story. Another discomforting thought: Superman isn't the only Kryptonian male. Supergirl could have a child with General Zod!

The idea of Superman and Luthor as Superboy's "fathers" is kind of nutty. I thought up an "imaginary tale" told in faux-Silver Age style called "Superboy Has Two Dads" in which Superman and Luthor settle their differences for the benefit of raising Superboy. I picture Superman sitting in an easy chair, reading the newspaper and smoking a pipe, and an apron-wearing Luthor vacuuming the floor as Superboy introduces his shocked girlfriend to his parents.

While we're at it, what if Superman and Lori Lemaris had a baby? "It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a fish?!!"

[Dhusk]

Well, don't forget that if they wanted it, they have the benefit of genetic engineering science, which in the DC universe has already created a cross-species hybrid (Superboy.) Animal hybrids in nature are rare, but they've been used for well over a decade now in RL laboratories and medical research. The GFP bunny, for instance (the rabbit engineered with glow in the dark fur), is a rabbit hyrbidized with select jellyfish DNA. If two species as disparate as jellyfish and rabbits can be hybridized, Kryptonians and Daxamites shoudln't be a problem.

Genetic engineering could also be used to help circumvent the inbreeding problem. Inbreeding's main problem is that congenital diseases start popping up more and more generations down the line, leading to the inviability of the offspring. However, once genetic defects do pop up (this is assuming Kyrptonians have different ones than humans, and the defects would have to be observed first in order to be identified), you can identify the offending genes and make sure the problem is corrected with succeeding generations.

You could also use genetic engineering to help scramble the DNA codes of the donors somewhat, so their offspring wouldn't necessarily be a close genetic match to their parents, and help maintain the viability of a diverse gene pool even with a limited number of individuals. After ten generations or so of this you'd have enough individuals of diverse enough genetic stock to go back to the natural way of doing things.

Of course this would all be trial and error and even if Superman and Supergirl agreed to stuff like this others might have moral objections to what basically amounts to Eugenics...

[Eliseu Gouveia]

A solution for this would be to go Titan A.E.

I imagine a crack team sneaking into the Fortress of Solitude, somehow finding a genetic database of kryptonians, and growing them in a lab.
Instant new generation of kryptonians.

Heck, I don´t even know why the Erradicator didn´t consider it as a plan B.

Problem solved.

[Dhusk]

Actually, here's a weird thought: could Supergirl Kara Zor-El just be another clone of Superman?

It wouldn't be that hard to produce a female clone. Just swap out Clark's Y chromosome for another copy of his X chromosome in his genetic code and you'd end up with a female version of Clark. Switch around some minor gene sequences (like hair color and facial features) and you end up with someone who would appears to be a close relative of his (even holding up to a gene scan) but who isn't an apparent exact copy.

Give her some conveniently sketchy and mostly missing memories, stash her on a kryptonite asteroid, and pretend she was asleep for a few decades...

[Pariah128]

wouldnt it suck to be karas human boyfriend? you'd never be able to pop her cherry..how about that for an ego bash

[Eliseu Gouveia]

When it comes to invulnerable superbeings, I guess that goes with the territory.
It´s likely that not even another super like Superman can.

[phicks]

What´s the minimum # of specimens you have to have in a sample so your offspring won´t risk inbreeding, 30? 300?

I recall seeing a National Geographic special on Siberian Tigers a few years ago. They stated there are a few thousand left in the wild, and that it is too few to sustain the genetic pool in the long run.

At the risk of stirring a hornet's nest, I live in a community that has a settlement similar to the Old Order Amish nearby. There are probably a few hundred of them, and they suffer from a horrible assortment of illnesses because of the small gene pool. Many of these families have half their children die before age 10.

So, nope, two Kryptonians cannot restart the race. Unless...Kryptonian DNA behaves quite differently from ours...which it certainly could...

[powergirl]

You have to think it would probably be a bad idea, how many kryptonians knew they had dormant powers laying inside them? how would this effect them when they find out all they need is a yellow sun? not all of them will be as responsible as clark or kara, I mean the devastation they could cause would be immense, im looking at the bigger picture here..what if hundreds of years later a kryptonian army is formed even? they could decimate the entire universe, plus if they put all their intelligence together they could probably find even more ways to amp their abilities and to get around kryptonite
see zod in superman II.

[Phatboi96]

They don't want a bunch of kids with that type of power. what if one goes evil? also, lois wouldn't let him, and clarke just wouldn't. and humans would hate metahumans just like maxwell lord (Cheackmate) in The Omac Project.

get it?