Gail, what are your thoughts on the New Supergirl?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Now we all know that a trend in the comic industry in the past is their less than stellar view and portrayal of women in comics, and the industry's done alot to fix those mistakes...

I felt the direction and approach of the new Supergirl is like taking 30 bigass leaps backwards.

[Kyuubi]

I happen to like the new Supergirl and the direction they're taking her in.

Why do think they aren't doing a good job?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I happen to like the new Supergirl and the direction they're taking her in.

Why do think they aren't doing a good job?
Well, lets observe

1) Faster an stronger than Superman...

2) first appearance was NUDE.

3) Costume wasn't much better.

4) Is immune to everything that affects even Kal(such as Poison Ivy's chemicals).

5) ALOT of not so subtle hints about the amazons.

6) Kara and Courtney girltalk as the men in the JSA fight for their lives against Grundy.

EDIT: And FYU...

Friggin Koriand'rr has more modesty than Kara!

THAT tells you something's wrong.

[Kyuubi]

Well, lets observe

1) Faster an stronger than Superman...

There's obviously a reason for this, it just hasn't been revealed yet. It might be because she is technically older than him.

2) first appearance was NUDE.

Might or might not be an explanation forthcoming, have to wait and see.

3) Costume wasn't much better.

Some previous ones have show about as much or even a little more. The original Kara flew around in short shorts.

4) Is immune to everything that affects even Kal(such as Poison Ivy's chemicals).

Same answer as question 1.

5) ALOT of not so subtle hints about the amazons.

I guess I missed those, where and when were they?

6) Kara and Courtney girltalk as the men in the JSA fight for their lives against Grundy.

"You sure they don't need any help down there?"

"Help? Nope. We're the JSA. We kick butt."

EDIT: And FYU...

Friggin Koriand'rr has more modesty than Kara!

New character in a new world. Plus, she spends most of here time around the Amazonians.

THAT tells you something's wrong.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm giving it a few more issues before I make any judgements.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

She's a teenage girl. She's going to dress like a teenage girl.

And I fail to see how the female version of a superhero being STRONGER is setting women BACK.

[Dry Observer]

Well, lets observe

You have a point here. Actually, several of them. But in fairness, I'll mention a few mitigating factors in all this...

<Spoilers Await!>

1) Faster an stronger than Superman...

This is key to the present plot (and may hence be the Big Spoiler in my remarks). Yes, they've certainly hinted that she might be faster and stronger than Superman. But let me point out a few details:

1) Kal often holds back when fighting on Earth, and in a great deal of what he does generally. This sometimes has to do with him not wanting to hurt anybody, not wanting to disrupt the environment, scare or overawe the people he works with... or even being so used to being able to handle everything with minimal exertion that he automatically holds back unless he knows the situation demands more.

2) Kara may have been absorbing artificial solar energy for years inside of that spaceship while in suspended animation (we know it generates just that kind of energy). Kal has powered up in that way in the past, for very brief periods, but unlike Superman, Kara would not have had a way to release excess energies. Hence, she may be a very full battery, and may have even expanded her storage capacity beyond what a Kryptonian teenager "should" have.

3) There's the idea that she and Karen Starr (Power Girl) may be "occupying the same space" in their identities, that Power Girl's powers have been in flux and occasionally waning since Supergirl came to Earth. Given the idea being tossed about that their both supposed to be very heavy hitters, Supergirl may be getting the benefit of their combined powers -- or at least, her own full powers plus the greater part of Power Girl's. That alone might explain the powershift. Note that when they battle, Supergirl thinks that she's not used to fighting someone stronger than herself.

4) With all that Kryptonite around her for years, including Red Kryptonite, she may have experienced changes to her physiology or psychology (such as the "darkness" Karen sensed inside her). For example, her system may be "burning the candle at both ends," it may in some ways be superior to the Kryptonian baseline, or simply different. Or she may be capable of her own version of "adrenaline surges" because she's slightly crazy, not just moody. =)

5) She may be a survivor not of this Krypton, but of the pre-Crisis Krypton -- in other words, she may be Kara that died... or was supposed to die. Given that Infinite Crisis is coming up, there's a certain weight to this possibility. In that case, she may be closer to pre-Crisis Kryptonian teenager power levels. Presumably these details will be worked out during Infinite Crisis or afterwards. In the meantime, it might explain why she and Power Girl are having such trouble occupying the same "space."

2) first appearance was NUDE.

Well, they didn't actually show her nude, so there's that. I admit, I'm not so keen on superheroes showing up naked (even covered) as much as they do, but I can live with it.

If there's something to complain about here, it's her later flashback in Supergirl #1 where she's shown locked inside her spaceshift as Krypton comes apart, apparently naked. I prefer to think of her as simply wearing a shirt that left her shoulders bare, since there's no reason for her to have entered the ship naked. Plotwise, I have no problem with her arriving on Earth with no clothes, since it's entirely possible that an empowered Kryptonian and her spacecraft could easily survive energies that would vaporize their street clothes.

3) Costume wasn't much better.

Well, she has a very bare midriff. Personally, I like to cut writers and artists some slack. Sometimes they're actually trying to show that a character is awkward, uncertain, overly practical and/or unconscious. Wondergirl's original costume was both ungainly and yet utterly terrific -- something that looked like it could be thrown together by a teenage girl and which was actually practical for what she did.

4) Is immune to everything that affects even Kal(such as Poison Ivy's chemicals).

See my comments above on her power levels. I like to think of these things as being in flux. And honestly, it's one way to raise dramatic tension. We really don't know what's going on with her, but realize that it does in fact matter -- which makes her tantrums, moods and general confusion and alienation far more significant than if she were just another rookie Teen Titan.

5) ALOT of not so subtle hints about the amazons.

I haven't really noticed these. I'll grant you, too many writers think they're being clever or openminded when they make frequent references to their characters' sex lives, but I don't know that this writer has ever fallen victim to that vice.

6) Kara and Courtney girltalk as the men in the JSA fight for their lives against Grundy.

Well, Courtney does repeatedly tell her to hold back and not to worry about it, and Kara is still a stranger to Earth. She doesn't know exactly how we do things here, but she does know the JSA is one of the most powerful superteams (basically the only one that's supposed to be on the JLA's level). So she might be taking Courtney's word for it.

And frankly, Courtney may just be a little too comfortable with the incredible competence of her teammates. And to be fair, if Power Girl hadn't suddenly weakened, they would've taken care of Grundy fairly handily. The member in the worst position, Sentinel, is usually hard to kill (I don't know if he's still made of green fire or not, but he has some serious defenses).

EDIT: And FYU...

Friggin Koriand'rr has more modesty than Kara!

THAT tells you something's wrong.

Err, I haven't seen this quite so much. And as I say, I'm hoping things like the costume are just a way of providing the character with room to grow.

Still, you have some good points here. I suppose one reason I'm not incensed by them is because I not only hope the writers will eventually address them, but I feel that they're already planning to cover your most serious concerns. That we're in fact looking at some of the core conflicts/issues in this comic.

But that could just be me. =)

Ralph

[Magneto_X]

New Supergirl = Power Girl from an alternate timeline (?)

[Grimm]

Christ, what is with the people on this board, have they never seen a teenage girl before or something? Hell, even turning on a TV to see how Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera or Avril Lavigne expose their midriffs might be a bit of a clue.

Faster an stronger than Superman...

Not to mention smarter, but then I guess you were not really paying attention how she evades Superman and Batman's tech. Plus the fact she is aware that someone, Luthor and Calculator, else is watching her.

Is immune to everything that affects even Kal(such as Poison Ivy's chemicals

Hmm, since the Kryptonite seems to affect her when Clayface is fighting her, it could be she just has a stronger will than Superman.

Kara and Courtney girltalk as the men in the JSA fight for their lives against Grundy.

In which she constantly watches the fight, asks if her assistance is required, then one shots Grundy.

Seems to me you are guilty of judging a book by it's cover, ignoring the possibility that a strong willed, intelligent and powerful girl exists behind that costume. Now right there is a reason that Supergirl is gonna appeal to young girls, that she is picked on solely for how she dresses and not how she acts.

[WhiteRose]

Meanwhile I'm loving the new Supergirl, bare midriff and all. And I'm mightily intrigued by the possibilities, especially the ones that have been mentioned here now that I've given them a bit of thought.

Like the whole 'stronger than Superman' thing. I think someone's already mentioned it, and I agree that it might be because she's been in stasis all those years (we're talking Superman's lifetime, and then some) absorbing solar energy and not using it, girl's got enough to burn.

New Supergirl = Power Girl from an alternate timeline (?)

Oooh, Power Girl from an alternate timeline, a la 'Supergirl: Many Happy Returns' perhaps? I'd be kinda torn about that. On one hand, it's got great potential as a story, because they did it so well in SG:MHR. On the other...it's been done. That way at least. I would be so pissed if they did it again (I loved Linda Danvers. I cannot help myself).

Really, I think they portray most women pretty well in comics. Admittedly the ratio of men to women is kinda one-sided, but at least they aren't as stereotyped anymore.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm also a bit confused by having a superheroine who's actually stronger than her male counterpart is a step-backwards....or how dressing like attractive teenage girls dress today is a step-backwards either....

Could we get some clarification of this, cause this is a pretty odd definition of backwards....

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Friggin Koriand'rr has more modesty than Kara!

THAT tells you something's wrong.

A tanktop and a short skirt is more revealing than a metalic bikini?

Huh?

[Sanagi]

I'm also a bit confused by having a superheroine who's actually stronger than her male counterpart is a step-backwards....or how dressing like attractive teenage girls dress today is a step-backwards either....

Could we get some clarification of this, cause this is a pretty odd definition of backwards....
Overcompensation, maybe? Just guessing.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Overcompensation, maybe? Just guessing.

I mean, they're superheroines for cryin' out loud. Like their male counterparts, half their job is to look as sexy as possible. With women, that often means showing a little more skin than with men do.

[WhiteRose]

I can't remember where I read it but someone rationalised the whole 'mighty skimpy superheroine outfits' thing by using it as a distraction technique. Yes, it sounds kinda kinda sexist, but it was something about not only under-estimating a woman in a fight, but being distracted by the large amount of skin being flashed their way. So it almost became an advantage in a way.

Hey, it worked for Canary when she was after that buisnessman Savant was blackmailing. That was the first instance that came to mind. I'm sure there are others.

[Onimaru]

My feelings on her is that she's Buffy with an S-Shield and less amusing dialogue. Sooooo don't feel the "I'm a teenager! I'm alienated!" I want the Black Alice to turn her into a toad or something. But I'm sure she'll be more or less interesting depending on who's writing her.

As for her "modesty" it's not really that bad. The midriff doesn't have any undercleavage, so clearly she's not completely a ho, and the length of the skirt is going to vary from artist to artist. For example, Churchill's skirt seems to be magic (which kryptonians are vulnerable to :o) in that it always just BARELY manages to cover her up. BARELY. Always.

That bit with Stargirl pissed me the hell off though...not so much anything Kara did (she was being reasonable)...but I've never read JSA and this was my first experience with Stargirl as a character, but my reaction was "WHAT A STUPID WHORE, THAT'S SOLOMON F'N GRUNDY OUT THERE! SOLOMON "ZOMBIE HULK" GRUNDY!!!"

So yeah, she's not particularly interesting at the moment, but I'll hash it out to see if anything interesting happens. She's still better than Superboy :D but Batgirl (both of them) dominates all

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I'm also a bit confused by having a superheroine who's actually stronger than her male counterpart is a step-backwards....or how dressing like attractive teenage girls dress today is a step-backwards either....

Could we get some clarification of this, cause this is a pretty odd definition of backwards....


So 'more powerful' equals being an equal to the male superhero equivelent?

That's a funky definition.

Which BTW doesn't work.

The whole fact that the Courtney/Supergirl conversation was about fashion and where to get piercings is akin to say the very old Avenger comics where Wasp is talking about getting a run in her costume.

And of course the two of them, SEEINg the men of the JSA getting HURT! AND having a hard time, still sitting back and conversing at their leisure...

Listen, Courtney never acted like that before.

The fact that the supergirl writer had the two girls acting like hens clucking away was a moment that is the 20 leaps backwards.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

A tanktop and a short skirt is more revealing than a metalic bikini?

Huh?


A Metal bikini is less revealing than pure nudity anyday.

Besides, Kory's lack of modesty back in the old Titans title when Wolfman introduced her had to do more with her unfamiliarity with Earth customs.

Krypton however had everyone with clothes on, and Kara lived there for msot of her life prior so she doesn't have the same excuse for the whole nude issue.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Please explain how exactly is a bad thing or a "step backward" to have a Supergirl that might possibly be stronger than Superman?
That will not change Supes' status in our reality,meaning that no matter what, he will still be Superman, THE superhero.


http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINbanner.gif

[LoneWolf21]

My only gripe so far is that she seems to be coming off as a little too utterly perfect and flawless in the issues that I'd read, but since the character and book don't particularly interest me, I'm just shrugging my shoulders and moving on.

[Jared_Humpherys]

Please explain how exactly is a bad thing or a "step backward" to have a Supergirl that might possibly be stronger than Superman?
That will not change Supes' status in our reality,meaning that no matter what, he will still be Superman, THE superhero.


http://www.tomburgos.com/ORIGINbanner.gif

Perhaps his meaning is that the implication made by having Supergirl be stronger than Supes is that she needs said powerup in order to distinguish herself and be interesting, instead of focusing on characterization or originality.

Not saying I believe that; just playing Devil's Advocate.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

So 'more powerful' equals being an equal to the male superhero equivelent?

That's a funky definition.

Which BTW doesn't work..

I don't believe anyone said being more powerful equals being an equal to male superhero equivalent. We said that being more powerful than her male counterpart isn't a step backwards, as you claim it is for some bizarre reason.

Y'know, this is gonna work much better if you respond to what we actually say and not to stuff we aren't saying.


The whole fact that the Courtney/Supergirl conversation was about fashion and where to get piercings is akin to say the very old Avenger comics where Wasp is talking about getting a run in her costume.

And of course the two of them, SEEINg the men of the JSA getting HURT! AND having a hard time, still sitting back and conversing at their leisure...

Listen, Courtney never acted like that before.

The fact that the supergirl writer had the two girls acting like hens clucking away was a moment that is the 20 leaps backwards.

You do know that Jeph Loeb wrote this story a few feet away from Geoff Johns, Courtney's creator & writer of JSA, right? And that Johns even consulted on this issue. So, I'm not exactly following you if you're trying to imply that Courtney was out-of-character.

Jay, Ted and Alan in particular have been fighting various incarnations of Solomon Grundy for several decades now, I think if they told Courtney to sit this one and watch them do their stuff so she could pick up a few things, she would gladly relax and chat with another girl her age about tank tops and peircings...because, well, girls sometimes talk about that stuff.

Trust me on this. It may not fit your narrow view of how women should be portrayed in comics, but girls actually do talk about clothes and boys and all that stuff.

[Expletive Deleted]

Eh, there's nothing wrong with her that not being drawn by Michael Turner and Ian Churchill couldn't fix.

[Corrina]

You do know that Jeph Loeb wrote this story a few feet away from Geoff Johns, Courtney's creator & writer of JSA, right? And that Johns even consulted on this issue. So, I'm not exactly following you if you're trying to imply that Courtney was out-of-character.


Despite my previous difference of opinion with Static-Pulse on this issue, I think possibly that Courtney has been around long enough that readers can legitimately wonder if she's being written differently than usual, no matter if her creator or her creator's friend is doing the writing or not.

Example: I think Laurell K. Hamilton has absolutely destroyed her original character, Anita Blake, in her Vampire Hunter prose series. I don't care if Anita's her creation or not. You can't change a character nine books into a series and not have readers scream that you're doing something wrong.

Not that I'm saying Courtney is out of character here. I haven't read the issue.

I'm just saying people shouldn't automatically dismiss criticism of Courtney as 'not-in-character' simply because her original creator or her creator's friend is doing the writing. All readers know is what they see on the page. If it's not consistent with previous published actions, I think a complaint is allowable---as long as they stay with what's ON THE PAGE.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Despite my previous difference of opinion with Static-Pulse on this issue, I think possibly that Courtney has been around long enough that readers can legitimately wonder if she's being written differently than usual, no matter if her creator or her creator's friend is doing the writing or not.

Example: I think Laurell K. Hamilton has absolutely destroyed her original character, Anita Blake, in her Vampire Hunter prose series. I don't care if Anita's her creation or not. You can't change a character nine books into a series and not have readers scream that you're doing something wrong.

Not that I'm saying Courtney is out of character here. I haven't read the issue.

I'm just saying people shouldn't automatically dismiss criticism of Courtney as 'not-in-character' simply because her original creator or her creator's friend is doing the writing. All readers know is what they see on the page. If it's not consistent with previous published actions, I think a complaint is allowable---as long as they stay with what's ON THE PAGE.

Whereas I think the writer whose created the character and has written the vast majority of her appearances probably has a much better idea of who that character is than the readers do. The readers may not like that idea and can stop reading about that character if his/her portrayal is no longer to their liking, but I have a very hard time swallowing the idea that the readers are better informed about how a character would or wouldn't act than the character's own creator.

[Corrina]

In general, a character's actions have to make sense to a reader.

If they don't make sense to a reader and aren't consistent with past actions on the page, the reader has a legitimate right to point that out, no matter who's doing the writing, original creator or not.

If Gail wrote a Black Alice story where she's completely different than her first appearance in BoP, you might say "Uh, Gail, I thought she was X and now you wrote her as Y, what gives? I'm confused."

Or if Gail suddenly wrote Josh as someone who was pretending to be a dweeb but turns out he's really a secret superhero trying an unusual courtship approach, readers might scratch their heads and say "Uh, Gail...not following you here. I thought Josh was a parking lot attendent and he's not acting like he was in every other story you've written..."

I don't see anything wrong with that. (Though Gail might. :)

[PatrickG]

And I think the main thing here is that, in Jeph's view, getting knocked down isn't a big deal to a super-hero and that Grundy is nothing compared to the JSA.

He's worked hard, I think, at creating a world where the villains are losing ground to the heroes. Grundy, Darkseid, Doomsday... The point is that physical strength should be zero thread to an experienced hero unless we're talking about gods and even then, a clever person can always beat a strong person.

Guys like the Hulk should pale before guys like Hawkeye and Iron Man, IMO, just like Grundy should pale before the JSA. He may knock 'em around but they relish the fights and there's no chance of the bad guys winning in a purely physical sense.

Because it's not interesting to challenge a hero physically. So why make that part of the equation the real threat?

[Indigo Al]

The argument is senseless. Whatever it may be (boring, not compelling), it is not "a step backwards" in terms of women's portrayal in comics.

[Gail Simone]

I haven't read the new book, but I liked her in S/B. Why is she 30 steps backwards?

Gail

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Every appearance she was in mentions or has either:

A) Nudity
B) mention of amazon lesbianism
C) mentions clothing optional.

[AllisterH]

As an aside, why does everyone use Starfire as dressing slutty?

a) Her race is solar powered.
b) Her culture is very hedonistic (the men dress like they're male version of harem girls with silk, breezy shirts opened showing their chest...)

This is like Namor who dresses half-naked because it makes no sense for a character like Namor to wear clothes.

[PatrickG]

When has there been any implication of Amazon Lesbianism? Because they swim together?

Heck, outside of Wonder Woman, no Amazons were even mentioned in #1 and S/B #19 didn't mention any.

There was the homoerotic lesbian kiss from Ivy... But A) it's how she controls people and B) she's bi.

And what's the problem with clothing optional? I'd imagine evolved people on Krypton wouldn't have the sexual hangups that humans have.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

The mere fact that the writers have these things in a super-title shows that they're relying on the power 'service' to sell the book.

[PatrickG]

I see all these complaints about "fan service" like it's such a dirty thing to pander a little.

Meanwhile, I've never heard anybody complain about table service the same way... Or Aaron Spelling TV shows for that matter.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Every appearance she was in mentions or has either:

A) Nudity
B) mention of amazon lesbianism
C) mentions clothing optional.

Who cares? The vast majority of superheroes, both male and female, are essentially running around nude anyway with their painted-on, skin-tight costumes. Superhero comics have been obsessed with both highly sexualized depictions of the nude body for several decades now. Its a little late to start having a problem with it now.

Gasp! Lesbians! On an Island of Amazons! Never!

[Onimaru]

And I think the main thing here is that, in Jeph's view, getting knocked down isn't a big deal to a super-hero and that Grundy is nothing compared to the JSA.

He's worked hard, I think, at creating a world where the villains are losing ground to the heroes. Grundy, Darkseid, Doomsday... The point is that physical strength should be zero thread to an experienced hero unless we're talking about gods and even then, a clever person can always beat a strong person.

Guys like the Hulk should pale before guys like Hawkeye and Iron Man, IMO, just like Grundy should pale before the JSA. He may knock 'em around but they relish the fights and there's no chance of the bad guys winning in a purely physical sense.

Because it's not interesting to challenge a hero physically. So why make that part of the equation the real threat?

This doesn't strike me as a good idea. The whole point of having brute types like Grundy, Hulk types is that if they so much as clip you, there's a likelihood of serious physical injury. The way you make it sounds, it diminishes these characters down to a level of near-uselessness. It's one thing if it's done cleverly (the Batman and Nightwing VS Amazo fight from a recent Batman struck me as plausible) but to just go "OH HIM NO HE'S NOT A THREAT" diminishes the hell out of a villain.

And it is interesting to challenge a hero physically, it's just generally not been done so. I guess it's my history as a manga reader, but physical fights in superhero books have rarely struck me as "omgsosweet". Partly because of some writers' tenuous grasp on the concept of physical combat (Gail excels at this compared to most folks, so kudos to her) and sometimes because the artist doesn't quite have a grasp on how to draw an "intricate" fight.

So, going back to the fight with Grundy (who as I understand it, can range from "pretty strong" to "Clap hands together and cause a shockwave that can level cities" depending on his reincarnation) it struck me as horrible that Stargirl would basically shrug and go "meh" about her teammates taking on someone so dangerous. If you've got the time to gawk about costumes and discuss the merits of belly piercings, help them take Grundy down faster, dammit.

[Corrina]

I see all these complaints about "fan service" like it's such a dirty thing to pander a little.


Well, it is dirty. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

It's just the pattern, I guess. The way Supergirl is drawn now, the art is mainly going to appeal to the male readership. My 12-year-old daughter took one look at the mini-skirt, skinny elogated ribs and said "ICK."

Really, not all teenage girls dress that way. Kara would be thrown out of my daughter's school if she wore that to class.

Like I said in the girls in comics thread, there's no denying that the women of comics are more drawn more sexualized than the men. The debate is really is how bad is it and is it bad at all?

Look at the JSA membership & costumes:

Flash--full on costume

Green Lantern--full covering

Wildcat--fully clothed, though, damn, I'll give Johns credit for having Ted run around half-naked that one issue. Yummy. But see, I remember that issue because it's so unusual to have one like that. I remember the rare instances of beefcake because it tends to be rare.

Sand--well, he's, uh, sand.
Dr. Fate--fully covered.
Mr. Terrific--fully covered.
Dr. Mid-Night--fully covered.
Hawkman--well, nope. He's the big exception.

Women of the JSA:
Stargirl--bare midriff, short shorts
Hawgirl--bare midriff
Powergirl--Umm...is there a more sexualized mainstream character? Her original costume didn't have a cutout. It had big breasts with the white cloth well over the top of her breasts.

Supergirl--we already discussed her.

It's not that it's Bad or dirty or fan service on an individual level. It's just taken as a whole, especially when they aren't nearly as many female superheroes as male. I have NO objections to guys loving the female form. That seems absolutely natural and right. It's just that...if every female character's costume and drawn poses serves that purpose...it tends to get overwhelming at least to this female reader.

[MacQuarrie]

Powergirl--Umm...is there a more sexualized mainstream character? Her original costume didn't have a cutout. It had big breasts with the white cloth well over the top of her breasts.
Yes it did. When she appeared in All-Star with Wally Wood's art, she had the cutout. It was about half the size it is now, but it was there (of course, she was also several sizes smaller then). Later, the Powers that Be decreed a change, and then the porthole went away for a while.

[MacQuarrie]

Her second appearance in 1976:

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_59.jpg

[PatrickG]

I heard that he kept drawing it but DC kept having it erased.

I find that to be funny considering what Starfire and Dawnstar would be wearing a few years later.

[the4thpip]

Wildcat--fully clothed, though, damn, I'll give Johns credit for having Ted run around half-naked that one issue. Yummy. But see, I remember that issue because it's so unusual to have one like that. I remember the rare instances of beefcake because it tends to be rare.

Maybe we should give Steve Sadowski credit for this, I'm thinking he's more likely to be behind that choice of non-clothing.
And I've seen some of the original pencils, the inker actually covered up a good piece of butt cleavage by putting the towel in a different position in at least one splash page.

[PatrickG]

Now if John Byrne pencilled the original butt, we'd have a new thread...

[Gilda Dent]

I don't care for the costume, I mean, I really don't care for the costume, and it doesn't really relfect the way real teen girls dress, but the way the character's being written doesn't seem troublesome to me.

Gilda

[Grimm]

It's just the pattern, I guess. The way Supergirl is drawn now, the art is mainly going to appeal to the male readership. My 12-year-old daughter took one look at the mini-skirt, skinny elogated ribs and said "ICK."

Really, not all teenage girls dress that way. Kara would be thrown out of my daughter's school if she wore that to class.

Like I said in the girls in comics thread, there's no denying that the women of comics are more drawn more sexualized than the men. The debate is really is how bad is it and is it bad at all?



Funy how Britney Spears first showed up as she did, then developed a very large teenage & pre-teen girl fanbase. Now my little cousin hates Britney Spears and always has, but that didn't seem to impede her career one little bit. I mean really look at how many of her vids have exposed mid riff, every single one I have seen. No one is arguing that this is not going to appeal to men, but saying it is degrading to womenkind and offputting to them is clearly ARSE.

As for Kara first showing up naked, well that trend is in Smallville too, Kara there turns up naked. Oh and so does Clark at the start of S4, and incidentally both Kryptonians in season 5 first turn up naked. And who is one of the producers/writers of Smallville? Well blow me down if it isn't Jeph Loeb. And let's not get started on how often Lex, Lionel and Jonathon appear bare chested. Not to mention the co-stars. Seems to be a large dose of beefcake there.

You need to ask yourself why does TV show half-naked men? Why to attract female viewers! (Spike and Angel in Buffy anyone?). Comics and animation do not usually show men in the same way. Could it possibly be that women do not particularly find the drawn or created male attractive? I have yet to see a girl drool over a cartoon or comic male. What I have seen is a poll started by a guy "who would you nail Betty Rubble or Wilma Flinstone", characters I am sure you'll agree not exactly drawn to titilate. All men like either T or A, women are alot more refined in their tastes. Some find musclebound heroes ICK too ;)

Can you REALLY see a girl in a store looking at a comic and going OMG he is sooo dreamy I need to buy that comic book? Perhaps I am wrong, and there is a large number of girls flicking the bean over animation, I kinda doubt it though.

[WhiteRose]

That's because we girls find reality oh-so-much more enticing :D

Why do you think there's a pin-up in Cosmo and Dolly every month?

:P Everyone objectifies the opposite (and same, depending what you're into) sex all the time. Can't escape it.

[taintedlunch]

Her second appearance in 1976:

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2321/400/2321_4_59.jpg

Wow! Get a load of that rack! Oops, I just took 30 steps back, didn't I?

[Ponda]

Regarding the Amazon references, here's the only line in Supergirl #1 that he could possibly be talking about:

"I live on an island with a group of girls who aren't exactly clothing inspired."

You can read into it what you like, but it hardly suggests lesbianism.
Supergirl's just joking around about the way Amazons dress.

Later in the issue she refers to Ivy's kryptonite kiss as her "first kiss."
I think it's pretty safe to say nothing has happened between Supergirl and the Amazons.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm still not seeing how the new Supergirl is 30 steps backwards for women in comics. I don't think the character is a step forward, but I don't really see how Loeb's Supergirl revamp is doing any harm. Thus far, she has potential, but they haven't done anything particularly interesting with her yet.

[Tom]

Eh, there's nothing wrong with her that not being drawn by Michael Turner and Ian Churchill couldn't fix.
Exactly.

http://images.comicbookresources.com/solicits/dc112005/dcu/big/JLACv122.jpg

She actually looks like a teenage girl there.