Supergirl: Jeph Loeb vs. Peter David

[Emerald Ghost]

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=004113

LOEB: First off, as much as I respected and admired and really thought it was fun reading about a Supergirl who actually an ectoplasmic being from another dimension who bonded with an Angel... it made my head hurt and it made Dan Didio's head hurt and when that happens, stuff happens. Supergirl, for me, and for the current administration at DC, is Superman's cousin from Krypton. Simple. Straight to the point. How she reacts to the world, to Superman and to the DCU is my job and we've chosen to make some radical approaches that differ greatly from the fresh faced idealistic kid from 1958.

I'm not sure how PAD feels about the new Supergirl, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth.

It seems like Loeb is trying to make it seem as if his Supergirl is better than PAD's because it's not as "confusing".

I think it's a slap to the face to PAD, that they cancelled his book with his idea to bring back Kara, and when it sold huge, gave it to someone else to do. PAD's a great writer, what gives??

[JLarson]

I've never read either version of her. BUT, I will say that "Superman's cousin" is a thousand times more attractive for new readers than "Merged Angel blah blah blah."

Continuity can be sooooooooo boring. Clean, fresh, exciting stories are a good idea.

[Sandy Hausler]

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=004113It seems like Loeb is trying to make it seem as if his Supergirl is better than PAD's because it's not as "confusing".


Where do you get this idea from? I doubt that Loeb has an intention to "dis" Peter.

Sandy Hausler

[Staredcraft]

I once e-mailed PAD himself asking

"a Post-Crisis Kara Zor-El (I don't know about you but I love how they introduced her). Anyway, what's your opinion about this new Kara? I mean, I know you're a fan of the Pre-Crisis Kara but what do you think of this one?"

and he responded

I kind of wish I was writing it. By bringing her back in "Many Happy Returns," I proved conclusively that the marketplace would support a Kara Zor-El "Supergirl." DC then canceled my title and gave a new Kara over to someone else.

I also asked if Linda and Kara met, given her meeting of Pre-Crisis Kara how would Linda act? Would she be like superman and welcome her with open arms or be skeptical like batman and he responded

I think if Linda were to encounter the new Kara, she would probably take her cue from Superman, feeling that if Kara was okay by him, then she'd be okay by Linda.

[Pennyghost]

I always thought that the "merged with an angel" bit was a bit over the top (could have dealt with the "genetic experiment from another dimension"; doesn't make her origin that different from Conner). BUT even with that I always hated the idea of "Superman's cousin" much, much, much more. Just seeing it written somewhere makes me think "Mary Sue" and manages to annoy me immediately. Effectively prohibiting me from ever liking the character.

[SuperManny]

It seems like Loeb is trying to make it seem as if his Supergirl is better than PAD's because it's not as "confusing".

Where do you get this idea from? I doubt that Loeb has an intention to "dis" Peter.


Well, he's not exactly disrespecting PAD's version of Supergirl, but he is indeed trying to sell "his" version, judging from his quote above. However, after reading Staredcraft's post about PAD's reaction to Supergirl, it does indeed seem that the rug was swept under his feet. PAD did already bring back Supergirl, Superman's cousin from Krypton, and indeed proved the readers loved it from its sales. DC Editorial though jumped the gun and thought a new creative direction was more appropriate.

I love David's writing and I think he would of not only "revived" the original Supergirl at a much earlier date (2003, folks), but the title numbering would of lasted longer (avoiding the necessity of a relaunch), we would of seen greater stories, AND there would not be any complaints about a teeny bopper scantily clothed Supergirl floating around the internet! ;)

Anyway, maybe at one point PAD might be invited back to the title! :eek:

[Staredcraft]

I hope he's the first guy they ask to take over after Loeb

[soda]

I hope he's the first guy they ask to take over after Loeb

I totally agree, very few modern writers have been so overtly screwed over like PAD was with Supergirl, there's clearly a market for his stuff, and I too would hope that DC "throws him a bone" and let's him take over Supergirl after Loeb burns out on it after 25 issues.

[xanderxerxes]

it's out right? (the series i mean)

[Sandy Hausler]

Well, he's not exactly disrespecting PAD's version of Supergirl, but he is indeed trying to sell "his" version, judging from his quote above. However, after reading Staredcraft's post about PAD's reaction to Supergirl, it does indeed seem that the rug was swept under his feet. PAD did already bring back Supergirl, Superman's cousin from Krypton, and indeed proved the readers loved it from its sales. DC Editorial though jumped the gun and thought a new creative direction was more appropriate.

I love David's writing and I think he would of not only "revived" the original Supergirl at a much earlier date (2003, folks), but the title numbering would of lasted longer (avoiding the necessity of a relaunch), we would of seen greater stories, AND there would not be any complaints about a teeny bopper scantily clothed Supergirl floating around the internet! ;)

Anyway, maybe at one point PAD might be invited back to the title! :eek:

So, we're not in disagreement. Jeph's just doing his thing, the best he can. PAD got screwed by DC, but not by Loeb.

Sandy Hausler

[Emerald Ghost]

Well, number one, he starts off with the typical "Well, I love PAD's supergirl, but..." which is not a good way to start off a paragraph describing why you like PAD's Supergirl. In fact, as a thesis statement, it seems to start off describing the opposite.

After that, he alludes to the fact that PAD's work was too complicated. That he thought so, that Dan thought so, and that his is better because it is simple.

Now, I could be wrong. I know nothing about the behind the scenes stuff, and really don't want to...I just want to enjoy the books. I enjoyed PAD's Supergirl, I enjoyed Loeb's Superman/batman arcs. Both are great storytellers, and it's a shame he's leaving DC for Marvel.

But that paragraph IS Loeb saying PAD's work was too complicated (I have never said he claimed any differently) and, to paraphrase, that his is better because it is more simple.

Is that not true?

[powergirl]

linda danvers for the dirtnap in infinite crisis alex.....

[Emerald Ghost]

If anyone is interested, this is email I got from Mr. David...with his permission.

The questions are mine, answers are his.


Would you be interested in writing the new Supergirl book after Jeph heads to Marvel?

Sure.

If so, what would be the most effective way to let DC know we would like you to write it? Online petitions and emails do not seem effective. Letter writing?

I doubt there's any point, honestly.

PAD

[Gauss]

But that paragraph IS Loeb saying PAD's work was too complicated (I have never said he claimed any differently) and, to paraphrase, that his is better because it is more simple.

Is that not true?

It would be, if Mr. David were responsible for all of Matrix's origin. :) However, you'll notice that most of the confusion Loeb cites occurred before Peter David ever touched the character, and for that matter, that Loeb never even mentions David in the interview.

The Matrix Supergirl was never going to be a simple character to explain at the best of times, and the new one, if nothing else, has the benefit of having a simple origin. So far. ;)

[The Defenestrator]

I would much rather see Gail Simone write Supergirl.

I have honestly always preferred the "cousin" relation to the angel thing. The angel-devil thing was far too much of a downer for me. But I haven't dug Supergirl much outside of the animated series anyway. I think Gail Simone would bring great humor and characterization to Supergirl.

[protonik]

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=004113



I'm not sure how PAD feels about the new Supergirl, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth.

It seems like Loeb is trying to make it seem as if his Supergirl is better than PAD's because it's not as "confusing".

I think it's a slap to the face to PAD, that they cancelled his book with his idea to bring back Kara, and when it sold huge, gave it to someone else to do. PAD's a great writer, what gives??

I don't think Jeph meant any insult to PAD, I think that he is saying that Supergirl/Mae, got to a point where her story was confusing and convuluted. The character couldn't be explained simply or easily enough to allow a new reader to pick up on the series or character and that is part of the reason it never really had big sales. Even his bringing back of Kara was pointlessly complex and involved ideas and concepts that DC, while acknowledging, doesn't really want to use to explain too many characters origin... look at Power Girl.

Jason

[LukeRed5]

Can someone give me a full explanation of Supergirl continuity Post-Crisis up until the recent Loeb Supergirl.

[PatrickG]

Superman visited a pocket universe in which a teenage version of himself operated as Superboy. The Time Trapper created this universe for a version of the Legion of Super-Heroes who now never existed and was thwarted when Superboy gave his life in service to his teammates.

This universe, left without a Superboy, descended into chaos when young Lex Luthor was tricked into releasing Phantom Zone criminals, who proceeded to destroy earth for no damned good reason except that it was fun. Lex Luthor became aware of the Superman who existed in the standard DCU and in order to summon him, created an artificial lifeform named Matrix, based on Lana Lang's DNA. Matrix became "Supergirl" and was sent to the DCU where she spent thousands of years in an iceberg waiting for Superman.

Superman discovered her, went back to the Pocket Universe, and helped defeat the Phantom Zoners. After stripping them of their powers, he murdered them for good measure.

He then brought Matrix back to the DCU earth and dumped her/him/it with the Kents and left for space.

Matrix impersonated Superman once and to cap off a less than noteworthy stay on earth, she left for space.

She showed back up again as Brainiac's girlfriend. She turned on him and hooked up with Lex Luthor as his live-in girlfriend. Realizing that he was evil too, she broke away from him.

Then, discovering that Satanic cultist Linda Danvers' demon boyfriend Buzz had betrayed her, Matrix attempted to save Linda and the two became merged into a single entity as a result. This combination made the two into the Earthborn Angel of Fire.

Supergirl balanced a normal life with various religious issues and super-hero duties. She briefly had a crush on a manly-looking horse woman named Comet.

Finally, in battle with the world's greatest vampire, Linda and Matrix became separated.

Oddly, Linda retained some super-powers. She was bulletproof and could leap 1/8th of a mile.

After a few detours, she tracked down Matrix and fought the demon Lilith alongside an alien named Twilight who could raise the dead. Linda nearly died again and so Matrix merged with Twilight... and saved Linda. She also gave Linda the basic "Matrix" set of powers. Telekinesis and flight.

Linda went back home to see her parents and discovered a rocketship containing Kara Zor-El who claimed to be Superman's cousin. Turned out this was the pre-Crisis Supergirl who got sent to our time by an enigmatic guy trying to save her from Lord Xenon, a despot who kills alternate reality Supergirls for fun. Linda and Kara teamed up but it was not to last. Kara had to go back or else the heroes would lose Crisis, creating a time paradox.

Linda tried to take her place but just wound up creating an alternate timeline where she married the Silver-Age Superman and had a kid by him. That kid is running around the 853rd century DCU post-Crisis as Supergirl.

So Linda came back, punched out Kara and sent Kara back to live out her pre-Crisis life.

However, Linda had lost her daughter and the Superman that was her husband and sacrificed Kara's life after promising Kara that heroes always find a way to make things right. She could no longer view herself as a hero, resigned as Supergirl and ran away.

About this time, a girl named Cir-El showed up claiming to be Superman's daughter from the future. She took the Supergirl name for awhile. She had lots of moodswings and was generally unpopular. There was some drama about whether Lois was her mother but it eventually turned out that she was a homeless woman named Mia who was implanted with some of Superman's DNA by Brainiac 12 from the future for no especially good reason. Cir-El hopped into a time portal and wiped herself from ever having existed.

Finally, a Kryptonite meteor hits earth, propelled by a rocket containing a blonde girl named Kara Zor-El. She claims to be Superman's cousin. Batman and Wonder Woman don't trust her and so, waiting until Superman brings Kara out in the open, Bruce and Diana stage a battle where they kidnap Kara. But Darkseid shows up and kidnaps Kara from Wonder Woman. He brainwashes her. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman go to Apokalips to bring Kara home. Superman takes her on using a Kryptonite ring. (Which hurts him but hurts her worse.) Kara is restored and just as Superman takes her to meet the Kents, they learn that Darkseid is waiting for them inside the Kents' house. Darkseid tries to kill Superman but kills Supergirl by mistake -- apparently.

So the heroes are allowed to believe she's dead for a few weeks while Identity Crisis happens and then, after Kara decides that she's willing to take the risks of going public, Superman introduces her to the Teen Titans, the Outsiders, the JLA and the JSA.

That's more or less it.

[LukeRed5]

Superman visited a pocket universe in which a teenage version of himself operated as Superboy. The Time Trapper created this universe for a version of the Legion of Super-Heroes who now never existed and was thwarted when Superboy gave his life in service to his teammates.

This universe, left without a Superboy, descended into chaos when young Lex Luthor was tricked into releasing Phantom Zone criminals, who proceeded to destroy earth for no damned good reason except that it was fun. Lex Luthor became aware of the Superman who existed in the standard DCU and in order to summon him, created an artificial lifeform named Matrix, based on Lana Lang's DNA. Matrix became "Supergirl" and was sent to the DCU where she spent thousands of years in an iceberg waiting for Superman.

Superman discovered her, went back to the Pocket Universe, and helped defeat the Phantom Zoners. After stripping them of their powers, he murdered them for good measure.

He then brought Matrix back to the DCU earth and dumped her/him/it with the Kents and left for space.

Matrix impersonated Superman once and to cap off a less than noteworthy stay on earth, she left for space.

She showed back up again as Brainiac's girlfriend. She turned on him and hooked up with Lex Luthor as his live-in girlfriend. Realizing that he was evil too, she broke away from him.

Then, discovering that Satanic cultist Linda Danvers' demon boyfriend Buzz had betrayed her, Matrix attempted to save Linda and the two became merged into a single entity as a result. This combination made the two into the Earthborn Angel of Fire.

Supergirl balanced a normal life with various religious issues and super-hero duties. She briefly had a crush on a manly-looking horse woman named Comet.

Finally, in battle with the world's greatest vampire, Linda and Matrix became separated.

Oddly, Linda retained some super-powers. She was bulletproof and could leap 1/8th of a mile.

After a few detours, she tracked down Matrix and fought the demon Lilith alongside an alien named Twilight who could raise the dead. Linda nearly died again and so Matrix merged with Twilight... and saved Linda. She also gave Linda the basic "Matrix" set of powers. Telekinesis and flight.

Linda went back home to see her parents and discovered a rocketship containing Kara Zor-El who claimed to be Superman's cousin. Turned out this was the pre-Crisis Supergirl who got sent to our time by an enigmatic guy trying to save her from Lord Xenon, a despot who kills alternate reality Supergirls for fun. Linda and Kara teamed up but it was not to last. Kara had to go back or else the heroes would lose Crisis, creating a time paradox.

Linda tried to take her place but just wound up creating an alternate timeline where she married the Silver-Age Superman and had a kid by him. That kid is running around the 853rd century DCU post-Crisis as Supergirl.

So Linda came back, punched out Kara and sent Kara back to live out her pre-Crisis life.

However, Linda had lost her daughter and the Superman that was her husband and sacrificed Kara's life after promising Kara that heroes always find a way to make things right. She could no longer view herself as a hero, resigned as Supergirl and ran away.

About this time, a girl named Cir-El showed up claiming to be Superman's daughter from the future. She took the Supergirl name for awhile. She had lots of moodswings and was generally unpopular. There was some drama about whether Lois was her mother but it eventually turned out that she was a homeless woman named Mia who was implanted with some of Superman's DNA by Brainiac 12 from the future for no especially good reason. Cir-El hopped into a time portal and wiped herself from ever having existed.

Finally, a Kryptonite meteor hits earth, propelled by a rocket containing a blonde girl named Kara Zor-El. She claims to be Superman's cousin. Batman and Wonder Woman don't trust her and so, waiting until Superman brings Kara out in the open, Bruce and Diana stage a battle where they kidnap Kara. But Darkseid shows up and kidnaps Kara from Wonder Woman. He brainwashes her. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman go to Apokalips to bring Kara home. Superman takes her on using a Kryptonite ring. (Which hurts him but hurts her worse.) Kara is restored and just as Superman takes her to meet the Kents, they learn that Darkseid is waiting for them inside the Kents' house. Darkseid tries to kill Superman but kills Supergirl by mistake -- apparently.

So the heroes are allowed to believe she's dead for a few weeks while Identity Crisis happens and then, after Kara decides that she's willing to take the risks of going public, Superman introduces her to the Teen Titans, the Outsiders, the JLA and the JSA.

That's more or less it.

WOW!!!

Thank you. Man that is some confusing continuity.

[blopblopblop]

PAD's supergirl was caancelled because the ugly leonard kirk art drove readers away after gary frank left. thefrank-david supergirl was a strong seller. when dc remedied this by putting benes on, they screwed up and din't feature his art on the covers until it was too late.

the new supergirl is just a bland, whiny brat stereotype. and kara zor el never was a slut



http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=004113



I'm not sure how PAD feels about the new Supergirl, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth.

It seems like Loeb is trying to make it seem as if his Supergirl is better than PAD's because it's not as "confusing".

I think it's a slap to the face to PAD, that they cancelled his book with his idea to bring back Kara, and when it sold huge, gave it to someone else to do. PAD's a great writer, what gives??

[Jolly Mon]

PAD's supergirl was caancelled because the ugly leonard kirk art drove readers away after gary frank left. thefrank-david supergirl was a strong seller. when dc remedied this by putting benes on, they screwed up and din't feature his art on the covers until it was too late.

the new supergirl is just a bland, whiny brat stereotype. and kara zor el never was a slut

Haven't read the new Supergirl stuff, but what has she done that makes you call her a slut?

[Kurt Busiek]

PAD's supergirl was caancelled because the ugly leonard kirk art drove readers away after gary frank left.

They sure musta driven slowly, then. Leonard was on the book for five years. Hard to imagine it'd have lasted that long if the art was driving readers away.

kdb

[bfrank]

PAD's supergirl was caancelled because the ugly leonard kirk art drove readers away after gary frank left. thefrank-david supergirl was a strong seller. when dc remedied this by putting benes on, they screwed up and din't feature his art on the covers until it was too late.

the new supergirl is just a bland, whiny brat stereotype. and kara zor el never was a slut
you are an idiot, sorry but it needs to be stated...

If it were true that kirk ruined the book, then why did it run for like 3 years with him as artist...

and just who has Kara slept with? The only supergirl that could ever be called a "slut" (not the anyone with any common sense would) is Linda Danvers herself...

Next time, get a clue prior to speaking...

[Ilash]

You know what, Jeph Loeb is right. As a concept the Linda Danvers Supergirl was an absolute headcache and lacked the simple effectiveness of "Supergirl's cousin". That said, Linda Danvers was such a brilliant CHARACTER that to me, the concept itself became irrelevant. Frankly, after reading the Supergirl arc in Superman/ Batman, I came to want Linda back even more with PAD at the healm. Don't get me wrong, Jeph is a very talented writer (I finally read the Long Halloween last week, which was simply excellent) but I find his take on Supergirl to be DULL and completely uninspired. Worse, I don't even see all that much potential in the character as she stands. Even PAD's take on Kara was much better than what we've seen so far. And no, in case you were wondering, I certainly don't blame Jeff for PAD's Supergirl title getting cancelled and his characters pretty much jetconned out of continuity.

[PatrickG]

Well, I'm sure we'll see Kara exhibit some of the qualities that made Linda special.

And on the slut comment, heh.

Supergirl's first kiss was in SUPERMAN/BATMAN #19 aka SUPERGIRL #0.

I didn't know that never having gone on a date and having one (unintentional) kiss qualified anyone for slutdom. You learn something new every day, I guess.

However, if anybody wants to see real developments in Supergirl's lovelife, I think issue 3 is where that takes off... But I get the feeling that the experience may not be the richest one for Kara.

Glad to see Kara back though and right in the thick of the action. I'm looking forward to whatever comes next.

Oh... Hey, Kurt! I seem to recall that Kara is one of your favorites. You interested in writing this book...?

(I have this nagging dread that she's going to get axed around the time Jeph's first arc finishes to coincide with Crisis. BUT I HOPE NOT! Jeph won't be the only one leaving DC if that happens.)

[Kurt Busiek]

Oh... Hey, Kurt! I seem to recall that Kara is one of your favorites. You interested in writing this book...?

Don't know -- I'll have to see more of her.

I like the pre-Crisi Supergirl, but this one's not necessarily quite the same...

kdb

[PatrickG]

Understandable.

But she'll have had less than twelve MAJOR appearances by the time this arc ends.

I don't think Didio is the kind of guy who WANTS a total pre-Crisis revival. Heck, I think he may not even be that keen on Silver Age DC.

But if something works, it works.

I think whoever jumps onboard after Jeph is going to end up being the writer who does a lot of the defining here.

[Emerald Ghost]

PAD is having a bit of tech trouble, so I am posting this until it gets squared away.

"Jeph's comments aside, what no one seems to understand was that I did what I did with Supergirl/Matrix to SIMPLIFY her. I figured that, when asked who Supergirl was, a simple response could be given: She's a guardian angel. Instead people seemed to delight in making it sound tortured: Well, she's this protoplasmic blob with Lana Lang's brain from a pocket universe that never existed in the first place, who merged with an earth girl and was consequently transformed into some sort of angel thing (frequently peppered with snotty parentheticals of "Don't ask.")

Oh, that Peter David. How confusing is his writing, that it makes one's head hurt so.

By the way, who is Sandman?

Ah. Well, his name is Daniel and he's the lord of the dream dimension. Except he's not the first Sandman. He's the inheritor of the title from another being entirely named Morpheus who was spawed from human consciousness along with six other similar beings whose names start with "D." And Morpheus knew he was going to wind up killing himself because Daniel's mother was out to get him...Daniel's mother having given birth to Daniel in the dream realm to which she had moved with Daniel's father, who thought that HE was Sandman except he wasn't really, he only thought he was, but he was actually the new/old version of a Sandman from another comic book entirely (a blink-and-you-missed-it Kirby incarnation) which, as it turned out, was actually only a pretend scenario set up by several escapees from the dream dimension...

And so on.

And by the way, how about that Superman. Last survivor of the planet Krypton, except of course for his cousin, and his dog, and an entire bottled city, but all of that went away when there was this huge Crisis that eliminated all these earlier versions of Superman and lots of other characters, except many of them have come back, but not the Kryptonian ones, there's just Superman and the Earth parents who raised him and they're alive and well, except it used to be that they were dead but they came back after Crisis for, well, no particular reason...

And by the way, anyone care to tackle which Hawkman we're up to by now...?

Anything in comics is as simple as you want to make it or as complicated as you want to make it, and it frankly bugs me that people have often used my run on Supergirl as the poster child for complicated storytelling when it was, in fact, far less complicated than other stories that are taken in stride. It's almost as if to say, Where does Peter David get off telling something this complex?

PAD"

[Deathstroke]

I'm not picking up the new Supergirl title.

I don't have any issues with the character, but the wallet can't afford more titles on the pull list.

However, for me, PAD's Supergirl will always be MY Supergirl.

[Pennyghost]

The problem of the new Supergirl isn't that she is a "slut" but that they write her as a pedophiles wet dream. With the short clothes, the accidental upskirt shots and the complete wide-eyed cluelessness.

Will T&A always be a part of comics? Yes. But most T&A characters are older. And the younger characters that are portrayed as sexy anyway they at least aren't portrayed as being that clueless.

And that isn't even touching the problem of why do we need her exactly? If you want sweet and smart innocent underage blonde girl, there's always the awesomely written Stargirl from JSA. And if you want underage blonde with superstrenght there's always Wonder Girl.

[powergirl]

The problem of the new Supergirl isn't that she is a "slut" but that they write her as a pedophiles wet dream. With the short clothes, the accidental upskirt shots and the complete wide-eyed cluelessness.

Will T&A always be a part of comics? Yes. But most T&A characters are older. And the younger characters that are portrayed as sexy anyway they at least aren't portrayed as being that clueless.

And that isn't even touching the problem of why do we need her exactly? If you want sweet and smart innocent underage blonde girl, there's always the awesomely written Stargirl from JSA. And if you want underage blonde with superstrenght there's always Wonder Girl.

isn't cassie sandsmark rather well endowed for her age as well?

[PatrickG]

The problem of the new Supergirl isn't that she is a "slut" but that they write her as a pedophiles wet dream. With the short clothes, the accidental upskirt shots and the complete wide-eyed cluelessness.

Will T&A always be a part of comics? Yes. But most T&A characters are older. And the younger characters that are portrayed as sexy anyway they at least aren't portrayed as being that clueless.

And that isn't even touching the problem of why do we need her exactly? If you want sweet and smart innocent underage blonde girl, there's always the awesomely written Stargirl from JSA. And if you want underage blonde with superstrenght there's always Wonder Girl.

Thre haven't been any upskirt shots yet.

And Kara is Supergirl. She's Superman's FAMILY. From KRYPTON.

[The Mirrorball Man]

How old is she supposed to be? I thought she was at least sixteen.

[hellokittykat]

That kid is running around the 853rd century DCU post-Crisis as Supergirl.

Where is this story told? I figured Linda's daughter would turn up again somewhere but I didn't know she had already.

[Michael P]

Where is this story told? I figured Linda's daughter would turn up again somewhere but I didn't know she had already.
At the very end of Supergirl 80. Compare the kid's appearance with the Supergirl shown in Supergirl 1 Million.

[PatrickG]

PAD also confirmed this.

R'E'L also showed up in Young Justice.

[bfrank]

PAD is having a bit of tech trouble, so I am posting this until it gets squared away.

"Jeph's comments aside, what no one seems to understand was that I did what I did with Supergirl/Matrix to SIMPLIFY her. I figured that, when asked who Supergirl was, a simple response could be given: She's a guardian angel. Instead people seemed to delight in making it sound tortured: Well, she's this protoplasmic blob with Lana Lang's brain from a pocket universe that never existed in the first place, who merged with an earth girl and was consequently transformed into some sort of angel thing (frequently peppered with snotty parentheticals of "Don't ask.")


PAD"
that's what she was! not just a guardian angel. Loved that book to death, but it far from SIMPLIFIED her, and I don't see how any one could ever think that it would.s...especially after Mae and Linda became two different entities...

[bfrank]

However, for me, PAD's Supergirl will always be MY Supergirl.
which one?

[Deathstroke]

isn't cassie sandsmark rather well endowed for her age as well?

Kind of depends on whether Liefeld is drawing her or not.

[Deathstroke]

which one?

Linda Danvers

[Emerald Ghost]

that's what she was! not just a guardian angel. Loved that book to death, but it far from SIMPLIFIED her, and I don't see how any one could ever think that it would.s...especially after Mae and Linda became two different entities...

Sure it did. Instead of having to understand the backstory with the protoplasm, you only had to understand that she was a guardian angel. He simplified it so you could enjoy the book without worrying what pocket universe she came from, or that she's made out of putty. It was inconsequential to the story, that of a guardian angel.

[Emerald Ghost]

Kind of depends on whether Liefeld is drawing her or not.

I am glad I am not the only one who was freaked out about a little girl who will one day have very bad back problems.

[EmmaFrostSlavingFanBoy]

I liked PAD's supergirl. I've read the entire 80 book run. If you were into the series, the matrix/guardian angel thing did make sense, but I think the problem was getting new readers. I mean it was canon that Supergirl was Kal-el's cousin, so this merged Linda matrix thing was confusing to some degree. I enjoyed Buzz and all the nods to the Silver Age supergirl.

Supergirl 75-80 represent some of the best work from DC this decade with PAD and Benes and Lei.

I'm more than willing to give Loeb's SG a chance. I thought her origin was well-written in Superman/Batman and SG 1 is a good start. I really would like to see PAD return to SG. I didn't like PAD's return to Hulk though.

[SuperManny]

what about batgirls metahuman super-boobies?

What are you talking about? Batgirl isn't even a metahuman....

:confused:

[Guts/Batman]

What are you talking about? Batgirl isn't even a metahuman....

:confused:

I've heard she was listed as a metahuman.

[jwmojo]

I've never read the old Supergirl title, so I'm not exactly viewing this new title from the same perspective, but I'm liking it. I picked it up because I'm a fan of Jeph Loeb, and I was pleased to find that (so far) it's holding up the quality of story that I've grown to expect from his work.

[cactusmaac]

82. SUPERGIRL
> July Supergirl 72 - 19,122
> Aug Supergirl 73 - 18,925 (-1.0%)
> Sep Supergirl 74 - 18,915 (-0.1%)
> Oct Supergirl 75 - 21,470 (13.5%)
> Nov Supergirl 76 - 19,735 (-8.1%)
> Dec Supergirl 77 - 20,307 (2.9%)
> Jan Supergirl 78 - 22,508 (10.8%)

Doesn't look like the PAD incarnation was selling towards the end.

[SuperManny]

Doesn't look like the PAD incarnation was selling towards the end.

Yes, but the jump it took at #75 was the potential a lot of readers and fans were talking about. The cancellation announcement came though with the second issue, #76, so I'm sure that help negate sales even though it barely started to climb.

The point is it had a good word of mouth at the end that not many titles enjoy ;)

[cactusmaac]

That "jump" didn't even push it out of cancellation territory.

DC did the smart thing.

They saw Kaza Zor-El still appealed to the marketplace, cancelled the current non-performing Supergirl book and reintroduced her in a high-profile fashion that garnered them a lot more sales than if they'd merely continued with the old title.

[SuperManny]

That "jump" didn't even push it out of cancellation territory.

No kidding. But as you notice, sales started to increase slightly again after word of mouth spread about the title. Whether or not DC did the smart thing is debatable, especially since the cousin from Krypton was reintroduced to Post-Crisis DCU anyway, and they cancelled the title prematurely (not even giving the relaunch "ample" time, at least FIVE issues, before attempting to get back up from its slump).

They saw Kaza Zor-El still appealed to the marketplace, cancelled the current non-performing Supergirl book and reintroduced her in a high-profile fashion that garnered them a lot more sales than if they'd merely continued with the old title.
Ummm no, they cancelled her title and reintroduced her as a misled half-human/half kryptonian time displaced clone, which not only caused further confusion but was subsequently erased from DCU existence a year later.

See, not all DC editors make 'smart' decisions ;)

[cactusmaac]

No kidding. But as you notice, sales started to increase slightly again after word of mouth spread about the title. Whether or not DC did the smart thing is debatable, especially since the cousin from Krypton was reintroduced to Post-Crisis DCU anyway, and they cancelled the title prematurely (not even giving the relaunch "ample" time, at least FIVE issues, before attempting to get back up from its slump).

Looking at those figures I just don't see much enthusiasm for the title at all, definitley not enough to keep it going at the expense of redeploying resources elsewhere.


Ummm no, they cancelled her title and reintroduced her as a misled half-human/half kryptonian time displaced clone, which not only caused further confusion but was subsequently erased from DCU existence a year later.

See, not all DC editors make 'smart' decisions ;)

D'oh. Forgot about that lame-o.

[Ugoff]

Sure it did. Instead of having to understand the backstory with the protoplasm, you only had to understand that she was a guardian angel. He simplified it so you could enjoy the book without worrying what pocket universe she came from, or that she's made out of putty. It was inconsequential to the story, that of a guardian angel.


I agree. I started reading the book as a new reader knowing very little about Supergirl's backstory and it soon became one of my favorite books. Let's face it Peter did a wonderful job but he tried to do something fresh, so it was doomed from the start. If it's not something that's been done a thousand times or whatever it's almost certainly bound to get cancelled. JMHO. Also it didnt help that DC made him drag out the story. From what I understand Pad had to make room for crossover events and the like.

[grendel824]

Anyone know how many Loeb scripts will be in for Supergirl before his Marvel exclusive starts? I'd like to see PAD take over once that happens.

[powergirl]

anyone have the feeling that in infinite crisis linda danvers is gonna show up only to die?

[jadrax]

I've heard she was listed as a metahuman.
Aye, but so is Batman by some people.

Its easy for us to Judge as were the audience, and know a lot of the facts. But if your a charicter inside the story, you probebly just think along the lines of Batman just beat superman in a fight = Batman has powers = Batman is a meta.

[dancj]

82. SUPERGIRL
> July Supergirl 72 - 19,122
> Aug Supergirl 73 - 18,925 (-1.0%)
> Sep Supergirl 74 - 18,915 (-0.1%)
> Oct Supergirl 75 - 21,470 (13.5%)
> Nov Supergirl 76 - 19,735 (-8.1%)
> Dec Supergirl 77 - 20,307 (2.9%)
> Jan Supergirl 78 - 22,508 (10.8%)

Doesn't look like the PAD incarnation was selling towards the end.

That storyline sold out. The problem was that retailers didn't pre-order enough and DC didn't overprint in anticipation - though IIRC Peter David asked them to do a big overprint for this storyline.

Irritatingly my comic shop sold my copy of the first issue to someone else before it made it into my pull bag. Nicely they prices had shot op on the other issues that I sold them all on eBay and bought the TPB, walking away with a nice little profit!

[cactusmaac]

Well if demand was substantially higher than DC expected, they could always have gone back to press.

[RabidWolfe]

Well if demand was substantially higher than DC expected, they could always have gone back to press.

Nah -at the time, Bergenza was hyping the time displaced clone Supergirl that first appeared in the Superman 10 cent adventure. DC deliberatley killed off PADs Supergirl to make way for her.

She was an abysmal failure, and so now we have DC, in a round about way, admitting PAD was right - bringing back Kara Zor-El was the right thing to do.

[Typo Lad]

The problem of the new Supergirl isn't that she is a "slut" but that they write her as a pedophiles wet dream. With the short clothes, the accidental upskirt shots and the complete wide-eyed cluelessness.

Will T&A always be a part of comics? Yes. But most T&A characters are older. And the younger characters that are portrayed as sexy anyway they at least aren't portrayed as being that clueless.

And that isn't even touching the problem of why do we need her exactly? If you want sweet and smart innocent underage blonde girl, there's always the awesomely written Stargirl from JSA. And if you want underage blonde with superstrenght there's always Wonder Girl.

So, how long have you had this Madonna/Whore complex?

Not disagreeing about the Supergirl art, mind you, but I think you're exagerating.

[Typo Lad]

On topic now...

I liked PAD's Supergirl right up to the split. As someone pointed out, "Supergirl is a Guardian Angel" worked as a good hook and was simple. It also let Clark keep on being the sole survivor of Krypton.

Once they split her in two, I was a bit... bored.

Loved Mr. Kirk's art though.

As a hook "She's Superman's cousin" doesn't work for me because I like Superman as the last Kryptonian. That's his hook and making additional survivors detracts from it, IMO.

That said, I also find the art on her series so ugly that words fail me.

[itsyaboy]

I for one wasn't a big fan of the the whole "Earth born angel" concept they introduced. I always thought of Supergirl as Superman's cousin from Krypton, who had the same abilities as he did. But that whole angel thing was a complete 180 from where the Supergirl character started off. She might as well have been a brand new character....with a new name and new costume to go along with her new abilities and background because other than the fact that she knew him......it didn't seem like her character had any real connection left with Supes.

This is just my observation, but it seems like the interest for the previous Supergirl series picked up right about the same time they featured her character on Superman The Animated Series. They even changed her costume in the comics to look like the one in the cartoon.

As far as this new Supergirl series.....I don't have high hopes for it. I understand the need to distinguish her from her cousin......but I think Loeb is trying to hard to do this. It almost seems annoying how she wants to distance herself from Clark. That's not the only reason I'm down on this title, but it's the one that sticks in my mind the most.

[KET]

82. SUPERGIRL
> July Supergirl 72 - 19,122
> Aug Supergirl 73 - 18,925 (-1.0%)
> Sep Supergirl 74 - 18,915 (-0.1%)
> Oct Supergirl 75 - 21,470 (13.5%)
> Nov Supergirl 76 - 19,735 (-8.1%)
> Dec Supergirl 77 - 20,307 (2.9%)
> Jan Supergirl 78 - 22,508 (10.8%)

Doesn't look like the PAD incarnation was selling towards the end.


Not true. These numbers mostly reflect how retailers were CAUGHT OFF GUARD, because DC DIDN'T PROMOTE THE SERIES very well towards the end. Most of the later issues flew out of stores in a matter of hours and days, and DC NEVER BOTHERED TO REPRINT any of the issues.

[Michael P]

Not true. These numbers mostly reflect how retailers were CAUGHT OFF GUARD, because DC DIDN'T PROMOTE THE SERIES very well towards the end. Most of the later issues flew out of stores in a matter of hours and days, and DC NEVER BOTHERED TO REPRINT any of the issues.
Yup. The Newsarama headlines went:

"Supergirl 75 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl 76 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl 77 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl cancelled!"

[PatrickG]

Yeah.

But they still only sold, like, 20,000 copies a piece.

More or less, DC only printed to retailer orders.

For whatever reason, retailers SERIOUSLY underestimated demand and didn't up their orders enough.

So DC basically said, "Oh well. Retailers aren't upping their orders even though the fans seem to want this. We need to abort and relaunch in a retailer friendly way."

[Typo Lad]

So DC basically said, "Oh well. Retailers aren't upping their orders even though the fans seem to want this. We need to abort and relaunch in a retailer friendly way."

1) It would have helped if DC had actually promoted it!

2) So you're saying Cir-El was retailer friendly?

[Sandy Hausler]

Yup. The Newsarama headlines went:

"Supergirl 75 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl 76 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl 77 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl cancelled!"

This is all speculation on my part, but those issues all involved the pre-Crisis Supergirl, and I believe that was the reason they sold. I had not been buying this version of Supergirl since the very early issues, but I started picking it up again during the last arc. So I think that it's a little misleading to say that Supergirl was having a sudden surge, when that surge was based on a specific story (and character) which was finished. And I say this with no offense intended to Peter David. He's like most good comic book writers -- I like some of their stuff and dislike other stuff.

BTW, I have no idea what Supergirl as a guardian angel even means, so I guess the concept was not simplified.

Sandy Hausler

Sandy Hausler

[Dhusk]

The concept behind the character doesn't matter as much as how well she's written and the quality of the stories and art that feature her.

Bottom line is that PD's Supergirl was a fascinating character who was featured in many interesting stories. The Earth-born angel thing I had no problem with, and neither did DC or comic readership in general for the ten years or so that character was THE supergirl.

The Kara Zor-El character never had any interesting stories, and was always a very bland character. Pre-Crisis she had the depth of a wading pool, and I can't remember a single interesting thing the character did beyond dying in Crisis.

The current Jeph Loeb version is just as bad. As I've said before, it is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that Loeb hasn't been around a teen-age girl since high school, and even then I bet it was iffy. =\ Here's a hint, Mr. Loeb: teen-age girls don't act like teen-age boys in short skirts, and they don't express their rebellion and aggression the way boys do.

She has no depth, she's written like she's drowning in testosterone, and the stories featuring her have been far from imaginative or interesting. And the comment another poster made about her being drawn like a pedophile's dream is dead on. Other versions of supergirl have had skirts as well, but this one's upskirt panty-shot ratio beats them all by ten to one. (actually, dressing slutty IS something I can see a rebellious teen-age girl doing--but its obvious this is all the artist enjoying drawing cheesecake, and has nothing to do with Loeb's concept for the character.)

Peter David's Supergirl was lightyears beyond the shallow, cheesecake-driven marketing ploy Loeb's Supergirl has proven to be. Here's hoping she can get a writer who can salvage her character--or better yet, have HER fade into well-deserved obscurity and bring Linda Danvers back.

[Sandy Hausler]

The concept behind the character doesn't matter as much as how well she's written and the quality of the stories and art that feature her.

Bottom line is that PD's Supergirl was a fascinating character who was featured in many interesting stories. The Earth-born angel thing I had no problem with, and neither did DC or comic readership in general for the ten years or so that character was THE supergirl.

The Kara Zor-El character never had any interesting stories, and was always a very bland character. Pre-Crisis she had the depth of a wading pool, and I can't remember a single interesting thing the character did beyond dying in Crisis.

The current Jeph Loeb version is just as bad. As I've said before, it is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that Loeb hasn't been around a teen-age girl since high school, and even then I bet it was iffy. =\ Here's a hint, Mr. Loeb: teen-age girls don't act like teen-age boys in short skirts, and they don't express their rebellion and aggression the way boys do.

She has no depth, she's written like she's drowning in testosterone, and the stories featuring her have been far from imaginative or interesting. And the comment another poster made about her being drawn like a pedophile's dream is dead on. Other versions of supergirl have had skirts as well, but this one's upskirt panty-shot ratio beats them all by ten to one. (actually, dressing slutty IS something I can see a rebellious teen-age girl doing--but its obvious this is all the artist enjoying drawing cheesecake, and has nothing to do with Loeb's concept for the character.)

Peter David's Supergirl was lightyears beyond the shallow, cheesecake-driven marketing ploy Loeb's Supergirl has proven to be. Here's hoping she can get a writer who can salvage her character--or better yet, have HER fade into well-deserved obscurity and bring Linda Danvers back.


I didn't care much for Peter's Supergirl, and, accordingly, stopped reading it within a couple of issues, which may have been smart or may have been a mistake. Your views about the silver-age Supergirl are your opinions. She is representative of the tiime and you could say pretty much the same thing about any Silver-Age character. There have been advances in the writing of comic books. But that does not mean that there was nothing to like. Indeed, I think the popularity silver-age character is the reason for the bump in the Peter David's Supergirl book toward the end and the reason she was revamped.

I don't know whether Jeph Loeb will create a great Supergirl, but time will tell. If Linda Danvers comes back, I'd suspect it will be as a different character (which I think she sort of did already).

Sandy Hausler

[PatrickG]

1) It would have helped if DC had actually promoted it!

2) So you're saying Cir-El was retailer friendly?

I'm saying Cir-El was a side character, never intended to be the franchise holder.

They were planning an in-continuity Kara introduction within a very short time of Supergirl's cancellation.

Cir-El was planned as a second Superboy but a last minute decision was made to change his/her gender to avoid confusion since the DCU was to be Supergirl-less for awhile.

There was never more than a two week period, by my estimates, where DC ever seriously entertained the idea of keeping Cir-El around.

[protonik]

PAD's supergirl was caancelled because the ugly leonard kirk art drove readers away after gary frank left. thefrank-david supergirl was a strong seller. when dc remedied this by putting benes on, they screwed up and din't feature his art on the covers until it was too late.

the new supergirl is just a bland, whiny brat stereotype. and kara zor el never was a slut

Hrmmm, thats funny cause Leonard Kirk's work on Supergirl looked like Frank's work at first and I thought it was an improvement over Gary Frank's material...

Jason

[Typo Lad]

Got anything to back your statments up Patrick?

[Dhusk]

I didn't care much for Peter's Supergirl, and, accordingly, stopped reading it within a couple of issues, which may have been smart or may have been a mistake. Your views about the silver-age Supergirl are your opinions. She is representative of the tiime and you could say pretty much the same thing about any Silver-Age character. There have been advances in the writing of comic books. But that does not mean that there was nothing to like. Indeed, I think the popularity silver-age character is the reason for the bump in the Peter David's Supergirl book toward the end and the reason she was revamped.

I don't know whether Jeph Loeb will create a great Supergirl, but time will tell. If Linda Danvers comes back, I'd suspect it will be as a different character (which I think she sort of did already).

Sandy Hausler

Popularity? Where exactly were you living, that you thought Supergirl was a popular character pre-Crisis? She was third-tier at best, ignored by most writers, and usually used only as an occasional supporting character for her cousin. Krypto was far more popular in the silver age than she ever was.

Great characters are associated with great stories and great moments. Here's a challenge for you: give me one GREAT (one acknowledged by other comic book fans to be great) story or moment starring Supergirl pre-Crisis. Her origin or dying in Crisis does not count. Just one.

Loeb has already had eight or nine issues featuring this character so far, 170+ pages to establish SOMETHING of her character beyond her short skirt and generic teenage rebellion, and has failed pretty badly. By this point in HIS Supergirl series PD already had set up multiple mysteries, gave us a great villain (Buzz), and most importantly had given us a complex heroine that we could care about. AND he wasn't borrowing from old DC continuity; he was creating this whole new mythos as he went along.

[Ugoff]

Popularity? Where exactly were you living, that you thought Supergirl was a popular character pre-Crisis? She was third-tier at best, ignored by most writers, and usually used only as an occasional supporting character for her cousin. Krypto was far more popular in the silver age than she ever was.

Great characters are associated with great stories and great moments. Here's a challenge for you: give me one GREAT (one acknowledged by other comic book fans to be great) story or moment starring Supergirl pre-Crisis. Her origin or dying in Crisis does not count. Just one.

Loeb has already had eight or nine issues featuring this character so far, 170+ pages to establish SOMETHING of her character beyond her short skirt and generic teenage rebellion, and has failed pretty badly. By this point in HIS Supergirl series PD already had set up multiple mysteries, gave us a great villain (Buzz), and most importantly had given us a complex heroine that we could care about. AND he wasn't borrowing from old DC continuity; he was creating this whole new mythos as he went along.


I feel what your saying in the last paragraph. I started reading PAD's Supergirl with little back history on the character and enjoyed ever issue. Also I have to admit, it was a simple straight forward comic. I dont see why some are calling it complex or confusing. But now a days if a new comic isnt mimicking or stealing from what's popular, it doesnt last. I also feel DC didnt give PAD time to garner more fans. From what I understand they kept dragging his story out with crossovers. I think one of them was that Our Worlds at War stuff. I wish they would have shown some faith in the book. They could have raised the price tag. I would have been willing to pay at least 3.50 for an issue of PAD's Supergirl. Does anyone know how well sales of PAD's run have done in the trades/digest format?

[Sandy Hausler]

Popularity? Where exactly were you living, that you thought Supergirl was a popular character pre-Crisis? She was third-tier at best, ignored by most writers, and usually used only as an occasional supporting character for her cousin. Krypto was far more popular in the silver age than she ever was.

Great characters are associated with great stories and great moments. Here's a challenge for you: give me one GREAT (one acknowledged by other comic book fans to be great) story or moment starring Supergirl pre-Crisis. Her origin or dying in Crisis does not count. Just one.

Loeb has already had eight or nine issues featuring this character so far, 170+ pages to establish SOMETHING of her character beyond her short skirt and generic teenage rebellion, and has failed pretty badly. By this point in HIS Supergirl series PD already had set up multiple mysteries, gave us a great villain (Buzz), and most importantly had given us a complex heroine that we could care about. AND he wasn't borrowing from old DC continuity; he was creating this whole new mythos as he went along.

Supergirl was around for decades. She was the lead feature in Adventure, was a member of the Legion of Superheroes and had her own book. I don't know how you can say that she wasn't a popular character.

I'm sorry that the Supergirl you liked was cancelled, but evidently it wasn't the character that DC wanted, and, time will tell if the sales for the new version are better than they were for the PAD version.

Sandy Hausler

[Dhusk]

Supergirl was around for decades. She was the lead feature in Adventure, was a member of the Legion of Superheroes and had her own book. I don't know how you can say that she wasn't a popular character.

I'm sorry that the Supergirl you liked was cancelled, but evidently it wasn't the character that DC wanted, and, time will tell if the sales for the new version are better than they were for the PAD version.

Sandy Hausler

So you CAN'T name one great story featuring her. What a surprise.

[dancj]

Hrmmm, thats funny cause Leonard Kirk's work on Supergirl looked like Frank's work at first and I thought it was an improvement over Gary Frank's material...

Jason

Gary Franks work was very good. Leonard Kirks was passable, but heavily marred by his complete inability to draw Buzz

Dan

[Sandy Hausler]

So you CAN'T name one great story featuring her. What a surprise.

How about Action #285, when her existence was revealed to the world. She'd been Superman's secret weapon prior to that time. (Sorry for the delay, had to check on-line to find the issue number.)

Sandy Hausler

[KET]

Popularity? Where exactly were you living, that you thought Supergirl was a popular character pre-Crisis? She was third-tier at best, ignored by most writers, and usually used only as an occasional supporting character for her cousin. Krypto was far more popular in the silver age than she ever was.

Well, Rip Van Winkle, you must have been asleep under a rock when it happened. I don't EVER recall Krypto getting an ongoing solo series shot. A few features in SUPERMAN FAMILY during the 70s, but that's about it.

By contast, during her heyday in the 60s, Supergirl was MORE POPULAR than Wonder Woman. Right after Kara's debut in ACTION 252, the Silver Age Supergirl began a solo feature back-up strip that went on and on for about 10 YEARS. It was only when Mort Weisinger made the mistake of 'graduating' her to headline ADVENTURE COMICS that things began to go awry for the character. Throughout the 70s, Supergirl's popularity began to wane from an ill-conceived solo series, being dumped into the revolving door 'rest home' for Superman supporting characters who formerly had solo books (SUPERMAN FAMILY), the arrival of more 'liberated' superheroines from Marvel (and one in SG's own back yard named "Power Girl"), and last but not least, the resurgence of Wonder Woman, thanks to her TV show.



Great characters are associated with great stories and great moments. Here's a challenge for you: give me one GREAT (one acknowledged by other comic book fans to be great) story or moment starring Supergirl pre-Crisis. Her origin or dying in Crisis does not count. Just one.


No problem; in fact, I'll give you TWO, off the top of my head:

"The World's Greatest Heroine/The Infinite Monster" ACTION COMICS #285-February 1962

Superman FINALLY presents Supergirl to the world, so she no longer has to play the "secret weapon" bit anymore. Then he takes off for the 50th Century, leaving her 'in charge' while he's gone. Shortly afterward, a gigantic scaly monster descends from a space rip in the heavens, crushing everything in its path. Nothing is able to stop the monster either, due to its inpenatrable force-shield. Supergirl also tries to aprehend the creature, but she just bounces right off the force-shield. Meanwhile, the creature goes right on randomly crushing buildings with its giant feet (which is all one sees throughout this tale, by the way). What's a Supergirl to do?

Well, she heads over to a nearby scrap yard, and fashions herself a message rocket from some junk metal. She flings it into the air so hard, that it lands 1,000 years into the future, where the Legion of Super-Heroes clubhouse is located. Brainiac Five reads Kara's note, then sends a special ray device to her via Time Bubble. Yet the Infinite Monster crushes the device before Supergirl even gets a chance to use it. NOW what?

Supergirl heads back to the scrap yard. Luckily, her photographic memory enables her to reconstruct the device that was sent. She aims the device at the monster, and shrinks it down to the size of a doll. Her thoughts: "My hunch was correct that Brainiac Five might have a shrinking ray similar to the one his ancestor used in reducing Kandor down to miniture size!"


And the other tale I'm going to cite is one that I'm pretty sure Jeph Loeb is also a fan of: "Jimmy Olsen Marries Supergirl" SUPERMAN'S PAL JIMMY OLSEN #57 December 1961. Won't go into any detail over the story, except that DC just reprinted it as part of their new "Greatest Imaginary Stories" collection.



Loeb has already had eight or nine issues featuring this character so far, 170+ pages to establish SOMETHING of her character beyond her short skirt and generic teenage rebellion, and has failed pretty badly.

Agreed.

By this point in HIS Supergirl series PD already had set up multiple mysteries, gave us a great villain (Buzz), and most importantly had given us a complex heroine that we could care about. AND he wasn't borrowing from old DC continuity; he was creating this whole new mythos as he went along.

True to some extent, but false in others. Lord Chakat was basically 'Streaky turned evil'. And PAD's Supergirl owed her human ID and her boyfriend to her Silver Age predecessor. PAD wasn't allowed to use the Silver Age directly, but he wasn't ignoring some elements of the period that he was fond of.

[KET]

Yup. The Newsarama headlines went:

"Supergirl 75 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl 76 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl 77 completely sold out!"

"Supergirl cancelled!"


Newsarama mostly collects PRESS RELEASES from the PUBLISHERS these days. DC instead chose to IGNORE the instant sell-outs of SUPERGIRL #75-80, since they had alrerady cancelled it by #76.

[KET]

Yeah.

But they still only sold, like, 20,000 copies a piece.

ONLY because DC never bothered to REPRINT. If they had done MHR the way they've been marketing Jeph Loeb's 'return', this would be an entirely DIFFERENT scenario.


For whatever reason,

LACK OF PROMOTION by DC. Retailers didn't know what had hit them, for DC didn't let them adequately know about an 'event' in a long-running comic series (which is similar to the current 'Ruckagate' tactical error with WONDER WOMAN #219).

retailers SERIOUSLY underestimated demand and didn't up their orders enough.

...and when they tried to REORDER, DC basically SHRUGGED their shoulders and said, "Sorry; we're sold out, and we're NOT reprinting it." That's a real fine way to run a business.


So DC basically said, "Oh well. Retailers aren't upping their orders even though the fans seem to want this. We need to abort and relaunch in a retailer friendly way."

Uh, no; they were pushing Cir-El on BOTH retail and the public at that point in time. Remember the "10-Cent Adventure" gimmick? Whether she was intended to be permanent or not, THAT was DC's response at the time. In fact, didn't Berganza make a LOT of noise claiming that Cir-El was "a hit with the fans", even though EVERYBODY KNEW this wasn't true?

[KET]

BTW, I have no idea what Supergirl as a guardian angel even means, so I guess the concept was not simplified.

It's pretty simple to anyone else. Supergirl was LITERALLY a guardian angel during PAD's run; simple as that.

It's also a nod to ACTION #252, wherein Kara says: "Maybe I can still do super-deeds for worthy people without being seen, like a sort of 'guardian angel'"

Yes, it's really THAT simple.

[protonik]

Gary Franks work was very good. Leonard Kirks was passable, but heavily marred by his complete inability to draw Buzz

Dan

And it is an opinion. I was just expressing mine. I prefer Leonard Kirk to Gary Frank.

Jason

[The Shadow]

Pre-Crisis she had the depth of a wading pool, and I can't remember a single interesting thing the character did beyond dying in Crisis.

The current Jeph Loeb version is just as bad.
... based on... 7 appearances? (not counting Supergirl 0 because it was a reprint)

How much depth can there BE introducing the character? Look at all the depth Punisher had, or Wolverine, or Superman or Batman, or Green Arrow or Wonder Woman. Even the enw Batgirl was a shallow character until her book and her appearances in Birds of Prey and Robin. She can't be fleshed out TOO much in other characters books... same with the new Supergirl.


You have to start at the beginning. Just because it's froma pre-existing concept doesn't mean she has INSTANT history... this is a new character. Same as Batgirl.

[Typo Lad]

Gary Frank's Supergirl... I have to say, I was glad when he left.

Great artist, but way too many panty shots.

I'm just sad that there hasn't been a Supergirl comic that I could give my cousins or my daughter. I liked PAD's run, but it was hardly 'all ages'.

And this one... the less said the better.

[The Shadow]

Loeb has already had eight or nine issues featuring this character so far, 170+ pages to establish SOMETHING of her character beyond her short skirt and generic teenage rebellion, and has failed pretty badly. Yeah but that was all in OTHER titles where she was a guest star... lets see what he does in HER OWN book.

[The Shadow]

And it is an opinion. I was just expressing mine. I prefer Leonard Kirk to Gary Frank.

Jason
So do I... though I don't think I'd like Kirk on Supreme Power.

[Sandy Hausler]

It's pretty simple to anyone else. Supergirl was LITERALLY a guardian angel during PAD's run; simple as that.

Well, what the heck does that mean? Maybe you have guardian angel's where you live, but I'm not sure what it means in terms of Supergirl. You have to know more than just that, otherwise it's just a term with no meaning.

Sandy Hausler

[KET]

Well, what the heck does that mean?

It means an 'angel' who stands guard over others. How bloody HARD is that for you to grasp? :confused:

Maybe you have guardian angel's where you live,

We ALL do, Sandy. Google up "guardian angels" and THEN get back to me.

but I'm not sure what it means in terms of Supergirl. You have to know more than just that, otherwise it's just a term with no meaning.

That's insane. If she's LITERALLY a guardian angel, that's ALL one NEEDS to know.

"What the heck does that mean?" It means MORE than 'Kryptonian' will ever be.

[KET]

Yeah but that was all in OTHER titles where she was a guest star....

Nahh, she was THE FEATURED PLAYER. In fact, S/B #19 just got reissued as SUPERGIRL #0, so this type of comparison doesn't even wash anymore.


lets see what he does in HER OWN book.

So far, it's ABOUT THE SAME as her introduction. Trades off the cheesy dual narration of S/B for equally cheesy confused Valley Girl-speak, but otherwise, it's MORE OF THE SAME. At least Loeb wasn't lying about his content in interviews.

[KET]

How much depth can there BE introducing the character?

A LOT more than we've had so far. PAD nailed the depth of the character he was doing in the FIRST issue. Otto Binder established a prevailing attitude for the same character in 8 PAGES. Loeb hasn't even developed a fully-rounded character yet.

[dancj]

Well, what the heck does that mean? Maybe you have guardian angel's where you live, but I'm not sure what it means in terms of Supergirl. You have to know more than just that, otherwise it's just a term with no meaning.

I agree. It's like saying "She's a Superhero" and expecting that to be enough

[Sandy Hausler]

It means an 'angel' who stands guard over others. How bloody HARD is that for you to grasp? :confused:

Oh, you are one of the snarky posters. Down, boy (or girl).

OK, don't guardian angels have wings? Did Supergirl have wings? Is she not that kind of guardian angel?

Does she follow one person around? Does she have assignments? Does she take orders from God? Does she come from heaven?

I stopped reading Supergirl early on, but I suspect that she was not an "angel" at all, at least not in the theological sense. And if she's not (or even if she is) explanation is necessary. Just using meaningless words like "guardian angel" doesn't explain the concept, whether PAD (or you) think it does or not.







We ALL do, Sandy. Google up "guardian angels" and THEN get back to me.

Uh, well, I don't know that I do. And if you KNOW that you do, well help is available.<g> I can assure you that googling guardian angel will not assure me that everyone has one. (And I'm religious.<g>)



That's insane. If she's LITERALLY a guardian angel, that's ALL one NEEDS to know.

What the heck does that mean?" It means MORE than 'Kryptonian' will ever be.

No it does not. See above. And get a life.

By the way, Kryptonian is a person from Krypton. But you are right. To really understand that you have to know something about Krypton. And to understand what guardian angel means, you have to know more about what the term means to the writer.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. I can't believe someone would even argue about this. (Which says as much about me as about you (although it says something about you, for sure<g>).)

Hopefully, this is the last word on this subject.

Sandy Hausler

[Typo Lad]

They did give Supergirl wings at one point, yes.

"New Supergirl! Now with WINGS!"

My issue was that pre-PAD she was too powerful. She was a shapeshifter with mind powers PLUS the basic Kyrptonian powerset (minus vision). I liked how PAD de-powered her at first. it made her more believeable.

Then next thing you know, she's got flaming wings, fire vision, teleportation and who knows what!

[Sandy Hausler]

They did give Supergirl wings at one point, yes.

"New Supergirl! Now with WINGS!"

My issue was that pre-PAD she was too powerful. She was a shapeshifter with mind powers PLUS the basic Kyrptonian powerset (minus vision). I liked how PAD de-powered her at first. it made her more believeable.

Then next thing you know, she's got flaming wings, fire vision, teleportation and who knows what!

Angels have fire vision?

Sandy Hausler

[powergirl]

somehow i have a feeling powergirl will end up being linda danvers/mae....
it could work.. esp with the fact that she's met the pre-coie sg.

power girl seems like a mimic right?
wasn't mae a mimic?

[The Grey King]

Angels have fire vision?

From what I understand when Matrix mereged with Linda Danvers she became the Earth-Born Angel of Fire and she gained angelic powers. Since she was the Angel of Fire she got fire wings and fire vision among other things.

This is some info I found on a Supergirl website.

The Earth-born Angel Arc (issues 10-50)

Linda gives a knowing lookThrough a convergence of supernatural events, Linda Danvers and Supergirl were brought together in a merging of physical form and consciousness that brought a new meaning to both their lives. A new, two-in-one, Supergirl was born. Supergirl now has a past as Linda Danvers and a human family, with all that entails, and Linda Danvers is now endowed with superpowers of flight, superstrength, and the ability to transform into Supergirl whenever the world needs saving. This event has had far-reaching repercussions: Supergirl is now more powerful than ever, for the act of giving her life for another caused her to become an earth-born angel. The Girl of Steel found herself with wings of flame and an even greater role as the Angel of Fire.

The Earth-Born Angel is Lost (issue #50)

In issue #50 Supergirl fought with her two fellow earth angels, also joined beings, in the climactic battle to defeat the first vampire, the Carnivore. In defeating this powerful demonic being who had been her nemesis for the first fifty issues, Supergirl lost her Earth Angel aspect and attending angelic powers. Amazed that she had survived, but realizing that her "Supergirl" half had been separated from Linda Danvers, she found herself with reduced superpowers and thus began a quest to find the "missing" spirit of Supergirl/the Earth Angel. This ended her "Angel of Fire" phase. The Earth Angel-Supergirl was captured and imprisoned in the Garden of Eden by Lilith, the "mother of demons". This left Linda-Supergirl with the problem of convincing everyone who had seen Supergirl "die" that she was, indeed, Supergirl. She acquired a new costume which she keeps to this day, but she now looks physically like Linda Danvers (shorter, smaller features, blond wig, etc).

[SiliconDream]

So you CAN'T name one great story featuring her. What a surprise.

Aside from the stories already mentioned, Supergirl's duel with Darkseid was the climactic moment of the Great Darkness arc, which is considered a great story by most standards.

[The Shadow]

Angels have fire vision?
Of course!

You didn't google did you? LOL :D

[The Shadow]

Nahh, she was THE FEATURED PLAYER. In fact, S/B #19 just got reissued as SUPERGIRL #0, so this type of comparison doesn't even wash anymore.
6 of one, half dozen of another... arguing over wether FEATURED PLAYER i the same as GUEST STAR is odd... BUT I will! LOL

To me Lois Lane is a FETURED PLAYER in the Superman books. She's not guest appearing and she only appears in those books (generally anyway). Supergirl on the otherhand doesn't have a recurring role past her initial appearances... thus is a GUEST. And why wouldn't it "wash" anymore? She appeared 6 or 7 times and then in a reprint...

So far, it's ABOUT THE SAME as her introduction. Trades off the cheesy dual narration of S/B for equally cheesy confused Valley Girl-speak, but otherwise, it's MORE OF THE SAME. At least Loeb wasn't lying about his content in interviews.
I think perception and opinion are factoring in. I don't think (and I'm guessing) you like Loeb... or if you do I think you PREFER David's Supergirl and aren't willing to give this a chance. Speculation I admit.

Again perception is important because I like the narration... I like it in Batgirl too.

as for "it's about the same"... there's been ONE (1... uno) issue out so far!

[The Shadow]

A LOT more than we've had so far. PAD nailed the depth of the character he was doing in the FIRST issue. Otto Binder established a prevailing attitude for the same character in 8 PAGES. Loeb hasn't even developed a fully-rounded character yet.
I disagree... Loeb has given us a semi-scared and very confused 16 year old girl who is cousin to Superman, one of the last surviving people of Krypton, and a girl who is trying to find her place in the world. I think it should be interesting as she finds it.

I was a fan of Davids Supergirl too... I have 1-50 (but had to quit due to budgetary constraints) but always try and keep an open mind about new things. That way I don't feel like I've wasted my money! LOL

[poraxan]

She retired in PAD's last issue right? I think it will be interesting if she ever decides to come back. Will the two ever meet? Will Loeb ever acknowledge that Linda exists? Or will DC even acknowledge her existance again?

How about giving Linda a new costume and name?

[chriskenny]

I actually had the same issues with PAD's run that Loeb did in the sense that I felt like it was too far afield of what Supergirl was in my mind. I liked that he merged her with Linda Danvers and all that, but the guardian angel aspects were too much for me. Especially when she started having special angel powers. It just didn't read like Supergirl to me and it seemed very strange.

Having said all that, I do not like Loeb's interpretation of the character. I tend to find that he writes her like a cartoonish, Britney Spears kind of interpretation of what a teenage girl should be, rather than a nuanced, unique interpretation. For instance, Stargirl is loved by many because she is based on a real person (Geoff's daughter). Supergirl feels very much like the focus-group teen. The stereotype that you hold in your mind. Not a real character. The idea, as well, that Supergirl would want to distance herself with the only family she has on a planet that is totally alien to her also rings pretty hollow.

I also think it is a fatal flaw in the ongoing series that for the next four issues the comic will guest star the JSA, Teen Titans, Outsiders, and JLA respectively. Talk about crowding a character out of her own book before you establish any kind of background on the character. It is it that necessary that she meet every living DCU character? I feel its more dramatic to have her own on her own, figuring herself out rather than being a guest-star in her own book.

I, for one, would like to see a Superboy book written by Geoff Johns. I love his interpretation in Teen Titans. At least a mini or something. This Supergirl stuff is kind of pointless to me.

[Typo Lad]

For instance, Stargirl is loved by many because she is based on a real person (Geoff's daughter).

Sister, actually.

[chriskenny]

Sister, actually.


oops. knew that, just didn't proofread.

[Gauss]

The idea, as well, that Supergirl would want to distance herself with the only family she has on a planet that is totally alien to her also rings pretty hollow.

It's basically what Power Girl did, pre-Crisis (and post-Crisis, sort of, although Superman and she weren't actually related).

Heeeeey...

[chriskenny]

It just doesn't make emotional sense. I realize that teens want to stake out their own identity and be independent, but I hardly think a woman whose planet was destroyed and only has one loved one left in this world would be like that.

Chris

[protonik]

Gary Frank's Supergirl... I have to say, I was glad when he left.

Great artist, but way too many panty shots.

I'm just sad that there hasn't been a Supergirl comic that I could give my cousins or my daughter. I liked PAD's run, but it was hardly 'all ages'.

And this one... the less said the better.

Oh yeah, lets judge it based on a single issue that was perfectly family friendly. :rolleyes:

[protonik]

So do I... though I don't think I'd like Kirk on Supreme Power.

Me neither. I want him back on JSA. that is my favourite run outside Black Reign and it was the Hawkman issues that made that book. Taking Kirk off of JSA was the first and only thing that Didio did that ticked me off. AT least he is making sure he gets work but he needs something consistent like maybe Shazam or Superman. Reminds me to bug him again about Shazam at Mid OHio this year...

Jason

[Lorendiac]

First, here's the quote from Jeph Loeb that started this thread off with a bang!

LOEB: First off, as much as I respected and admired and really thought it was fun reading about a Supergirl who actually an ectoplasmic being from another dimension who bonded with an Angel... it made my head hurt and it made Dan Didio's head hurt and when that happens, stuff happens. Supergirl, for me, and for the current administration at DC, is Superman's cousin from Krypton. Simple. Straight to the point. How she reacts to the world, to Superman and to the DCU is my job and we've chosen to make some radical approaches that differ greatly from the fresh faced idealistic kid from 1958.

Now, my question for fans of the PAD Supergirl. What if Loeb had phrased it a little differently? What if he had said something along these lines about previous Post-Crisis versions of the "Supergirl" concept, making it more clear that any 'fault' did not lie with PAD in the first place?

[Hypothetical speech he could have made:]

"The Matrix Supergirl was a cute gimmick in her day, a Post-Crisis 'Supergirl who isn't the same as the old Supergirl; just looks like her on the surface!' But there's a huge difference between a Cute Gimmick, and a Character with Real Staying Power. In other words, Matrix should have been used in the short run for mystery and shock value, and then discarded somehow so that she wouldn't be constantly cluttering up the proud name of 'Supergirl' and making it impossible for any other characters to use that name successfully in modern continuity as long as Matrix was still underfoot where she didn't belong.

"Now, Peter David did the very best he could with the available material when he started a new Supergirl series, by having Little Miss Protomatter from a Pocket Dimension merge with an ordinary human being named Linda Danvers, who then became the focus of the new series, thereby simultaneously throwing a bone to fans of the old Supergirl from Pre-Crisis days, while trying his darnedest to 'humanize' Matrix Supergirl, which he recognized she desperately needed. But Peter shouldn't have had to do that in order to humanize Supergirl in the first place, because Matrix Supergirl should not have still been running around the DCU calling herself Supergirl at that late date. She should have been quietly disposed of many years earlier, swept under the rug and forgotten, just like a lot of the silly 'gimmick' characters from the old Silver Age days who would pop up in one or two stories and then never be heard from again because it would just be too complicated and embarrassing to have to keep explaining their rationales to new readers. Failing that, Matrix could have just dropped the whole Supergirl thing and called herself Matrix all the time, wearing a different costume, to clear the field for a more interesting Supergirl in the future."

[End of Hypothetical Speech]

One interesting thing is that I'm not sure the above speech accurately reflects my own feelings about Matrix Supergirl. I'm ambivalent about her - sometimes, in some stories before her PAD days, I kinda liked her in some ways - other times I just winced or was bored.

But I do think that the two-paragraph hypothetical speech I offered represents a Defensible Point of View, at the very least, and I wouldn't blame Loeb if I heard him say something along those lines. Would you?

[PatrickG]

That's a lot of talking about back issues that Jeph wouldn't be making any royalties off of.

For what it's worth, I believe he has gone out of his way to say that the Kara CONCEPT is a great one and he hasn't dismissed anything ABOUT PAD's run except for the concept that PAD was saddled with chose to elaborate on.

Further, Jeph did say that he read PAD's whole run and that while he didn't envision a meeting between Linda and Kara anytime SOON (first year, I believe, were his words) he suggested that it MIGHT happen SOMEDAY.

Hopefully, IMO, that means he's got an exclusion with Marvel to carry this book through #12.

[KET]

Now, my question for fans of the PAD Supergirl. What if Loeb had phrased it a little differently? What if he had said something along these lines about previous Post-Crisis versions of the "Supergirl" concept, making it more clear that any 'fault' did not lie with PAD in the first place?

First of all, I wouldn't put words in Loeb's mouth, since he seems to do JUST FINE with his usual 'carnival barker' antics in interviews.

And second, Loeb's trying to SELL folks on his 'new' Supergirl. With DC and DiDio BLATANTLY going out of their way to 'maximize sales' on this title, whether she's even worth reading about or not is the only REAL question at this point. So far, IMO, NONE of them have even gotten beyond the 'just another rehash' stage.


And third, I don't think PAD is even concerned about the matter, considering he's helping launch new Spider-Man and X-Men spin-off books this year. If anything, it seems more like Loeb's merely COPYING his moves by returning to Marvel. :o

[KET]

Oh, you are one of the snarky posters. Down, boy (or girl).

Hey now, no need to get pissy; YOU'RE the one who seems to be clueless on this matter. All it would take for you to get up to speed is a little Googling, and half a brain.


OK, don't guardian angels have wings? Did Supergirl have wings? Is she not that kind of guardian angel?

1. some do, some don't
2. Yes.
3. See the previous answer. And stop HYPERVENTILATING with redundant questions.



Does she follow one person around? Does she have assignments? Does she take orders from God? Does she come from heaven?

4. Sometimes. 5. Yes. 6. If God is a little boy named Wally, then yes. 6. Not all 'angels' come from heaven. Some live right with us here on earth. If you had done your Googling like you were supposed to, then you would have figured this out by now.

I stopped reading Supergirl early on, but I suspect that she was not an "angel" at all, at least not in the theological sense.).

Look up "schechina". And see, it's NO WONDER you don't know why Supergirl was an angel in this series; you DIDN'T READ the book! :evilsmile


And if she's not (or even if she is) explanation is necessary. Just using meaningless words like "guardian angel" doesn't explain the concept, whether PAD (or you) think it does or not.

PAD ELABORATED on the "Earth-born angel" concept as the series went along. The development was really NO DIFFERENT than how Superman's mythos gradually sprung up OVER TIME.


Uh, well, I don't know that I do. And if you KNOW that you do, well help is available.<g> I can assure you that googling guardian angel will not assure me that everyone has one. (And I'm religious.<g>)

Thanks for yet again proving that IGNORANCE IS BLISS. Sounds like you're afraid of doing a little research. :D


No it does not. See above. And get a life.

Awww, now you're just being a POUTY BABY, Sandy.

By the way, Kryptonian is a person from Krypton.

How do you know? Because A COMIC BOOK TOLD YOU??? :D

To anyone else who ISN'T a comic book freak, "Kryptonian" could refer to someone (or something) made out of the element Krypton. Or it could mean something else entirely.


But you are right. To really understand that you have to know something about Krypton. And to understand what guardian angel means, you have to know more about what the term means to the writer.

FINALLY, you start to come around! Took you LONG ENOUGH. :D

Superman's mythos wasn't born in a day. By the SAME TOKEN, what mythos PAD built for his Supergirl series didn't happen overnight, either. He was creating a SERIES though, not some idiot shortcut terminology that could be used for RPG games everywhere.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation. I can't believe someone would even argue about this.

Hey, don't look at me; I was only REPLYING TO YOU. DEAL with your new 'enlightenment', bub.

[KET]

6 of one, half dozen of another... arguing over wether FEATURED PLAYER i the same as GUEST STAR is odd... BUT I will! LOL

To me Lois Lane is a FEATURED PLAYER in the Superman books.

Nope. Lois is a mostly SUPPORTING PLAYER, except for the few instances when writers focus on WHAT SHE'S DOING.


as for "it's about the same"... there's been ONE (1... uno) issue out so far!

Nope, it's more like 8. DC's marketing the arc in S/B as HER INTRODUCTION, even though she comes off mostly as CENTRAL PLOT DEVICE in there. Her SOLO ADVENTURE in S/B just came out as SUPERGIRL #0, so even if you wanna get technical, you're STILL OFF by one. :D

[KET]

I disagree... Loeb has given us a semi-scared and very confused 16 year old girl who is cousin to Superman, one of the last surviving people of Krypton, and a girl who is trying to find her place in the world.

Nice try. But I disagree, of course. :D

Loeb has instead given us a SHALLOW Valley Girl-wannabe who CLAIMS that she's Superman's cousin, but so far, DOESN'T even have the knowledge of HOW she showed up on Earth. At this point, Batman knows more about where she came from than she does. And even HE'S suspicious.

Heck, SG #1 was MORE ABOUT POWER GIRL than the title character. I'm still waiting for this BLANDED-OUT 'new' Supergirl to show an individual PULSE.

[Peter David]

I agree. It's like saying "She's a Superhero" and expecting that to be enough

It may be just me, but if someone gave a capsule description of a character as "She's a superhero," that would indeed be enough for me to have at least SOME comprehension of what she's all about. As opposed to, say, "She's a detective" or "She's a cowgirl." Is there more to be found out? Well, sure. "She's a superhero" doesn't tell us if she flies or crawls, has superstrength or turns into water, draws the line at killing or not.

Basically, in reading over this thread, there's one person who pretty much knows next to nothing of the entire angel storyline, isn't satisfied with a one line description, is not remotely interested in taking the time or effort to go back and read the series, and will defend to the death the right to remain in ignorance of it. Which is, y'know, fine by me. Nothing changes the fact that my run on the series (which, if I recall correctly, sold out its first issue as well and went back to press) remains the single longest run of a title called "Supergirl," beating out all the previous solo title endeavors combined. It lasted a butt-load longer than a lot of other DC titles, was in fact at the time of its last issues outselling a number of DC titles which are still being published, and is still a series I'm very proud of no matter how many people feel it wasn't worth their time to read or couldn't wrap their minds around it because it wasn't sufficiently simplistic. And why anyone is continuing a sustained argument with someone who literally doesn't know what they're talking about is beyond me.

PAD

[jadrax]

Must admit, I have never read Supergirl, and I probably should. I loved Fallen Angel, (bring it back.)

But personally, the big stumbling block I have, is it's not Supergirl, (For which PAD can take no blame,) Supergirl is Superman's cousin, as soon as you start talking about blob supergirl, or even Angel supergirl, (Which lets face it is a hell of a better explination than her being a blob,) my interest gauge shows Zero.

[protonik]

First of all, I wouldn't put words in Loeb's mouth, since he seems to do JUST FINE with his usual 'carnival barker' antics in interviews.

And second, Loeb's trying to SELL folks on his 'new' Supergirl. With DC and DiDio BLATANTLY going out of their way to 'maximize sales' on this title, whether she's even worth reading about or not is the only REAL question at this point. So far, IMO, NONE of them have even gotten beyond the 'just another rehash' stage.


And third, I don't think PAD is even concerned about the matter, considering he's helping launch new Spider-Man and X-Men spin-off books this year. If anything, it seems more like Loeb's merely COPYING his moves by returning to Marvel. :o

Your language indicates a bias. We don't know if the character is worth reading about so DC is maximizing sales? Of course they are! They want people to read the book and get to know the character! It only makes good business sense.

Jason

[Peter David]

Must admit, I have never read Supergirl, and I probably should. I loved Fallen Angel, (bring it back.)



I am bringing back "Fallen Angel." IDW will be publishing the new and continuing adventures of "Fallen Angel" starting in December, with art by JK Woodward.

[Peter David]

If I did this right, below is a sample of JK's art for "Fallen Angel." This isn't simply the cover; this is how the whole book will look.

PAD

[jadrax]

If I did this right, below is a sample of JK's art for "Fallen Angel." This isn't simply the cover; this is how the whole book will look.

PAD
oooohhh, now that is nice artwork, very different but well cool.

Now bring it back faster! ;o)

[tricksterpup]

If I did this right, below is a sample of JK's art for "Fallen Angel." This isn't simply the cover; this is how the whole book will look.

PAD
Peter,
First off, I want to thank you for posting here at CBR. :)
Second, I want to say I loved your run of Super Girl, with Linda Danvers. It was a beautiful book.
Third, I wanted to apologize, I liked the Fallen Angel series but dropped it due to personal issues at the time, life is a harsh mistress. I wish I could have supported the book but could not. I am sold on this new one and will pick it up.

One final question if you post again here at CBR, will DC allow you to have the rights to the original books to place in a Trade before or after the new series comes out?

[Emerald Ghost]

Oh my goodness that's a beautiful cover.

With PAD's writing and that cover...wow.

Is it still mature readers?

[powergirl]

If I did this right, below is a sample of JK's art for "Fallen Angel." This isn't simply the cover; this is how the whole book will look.

PAD
can someone make that into a wallpaper please?

[Typo Lad]

Oh yeah, lets judge it based on a single issue that was perfectly family friendly. :rolleyes:

I'm judging the character based on every appearance she has made so far.

Sorry, not giving that to my kid.

[Guts/Batman]

Nope. Lois is a mostly SUPPORTING PLAYER, except for the few instances when writers focus on WHAT SHE'S DOING.

I agree with Shadow. Lois is a major player. Just because she doesn't have superpowers or is a hero doesn't mean she is a supporting character. There are nuances of her character that make her a major player in the Superman books.

Those same nuances to Lois effect Clark in a profound way. She, specifically, is what keeps Clark connected to humanity. (The Kents are a few others, there aren't many others.) She is a necessary character in the book.

Supporting character would indicate that if the character wasn't in the book, the story/book would not suffer. This clearly not the case with Lois. The book/story would suffer if Lois was to flat disappear in specifically the Superman books.

Isn't at least half of the stuff that Superman does to specifically protect her? In that For Tommorrow arc, I think it shows exactly how major a character she is in the books.

[The Shadow]

I am bringing back "Fallen Angel." IDW will be publishing the new and continuing adventures of "Fallen Angel" starting in December, with art by JK Woodward.
Hey Peter! Good to see yet ANOTHER pro posting here.

I only read the first few issues and then had to quit comics while I moved and had little $$$ when I was settled... will knowledge of the past DC comic be a necessity or are you starting at ground zero?

Thanks!

[The Shadow]

I agree with Shadow. Lois is a major player. Just because she doesn't have superpowers or is a hero doesn't mean she is a supporting character.
Your $5.00 is in the mail! :D :D

[Guts/Batman]

Your $5.00 is in the mail! :D :D

Wooohooooo... thanks. :D

[Peter David]

Hey Peter! Good to see yet ANOTHER pro posting here.

I only read the first few issues and then had to quit comics while I moved and had little $$$ when I was settled... will knowledge of the past DC comic be a necessity or are you starting at ground zero?

Thanks!

There's a serious gap of time between the end of the previous series and the beginning of the next one. It'd be nice if you'd read the DC series, simply because I think it's some of my best work, ever. But I'm anticipating that we'll be getting a lot of ground zero readers and I can assure you that I've made allowances for the new series being as accessible as humanly possible. You need not have read the DC "Fallen Angel" series...and, not to put too fine a point on it, you sure don't have to have read my run on "Supergirl" either.

PAD

[Sandy Hausler]

Hey now, no need to get pissy; YOU'RE the one who seems to be clueless on this matter. All it would take for you to get up to speed is a little Googling, and half a brain.




1. some do, some don't
2. Yes.
3. See the previous answer. And stop HYPERVENTILATING with redundant questions.





4. Sometimes. 5. Yes. 6. If God is a little boy named Wally, then yes. 6. Not all 'angels' come from heaven. Some live right with us here on earth. If you had done your Googling like you were supposed to, then you would have figured this out by now.



Look up "schechina". And see, it's NO WONDER you don't know why Supergirl was an angel in this series; you DIDN'T READ the book! :evilsmile




PAD ELABORATED on the "Earth-born angel" concept as the series went along. The development was really NO DIFFERENT than how Superman's mythos gradually sprung up OVER TIME.




Thanks for yet again proving that IGNORANCE IS BLISS. Sounds like you're afraid of doing a little research. :D




Awww, now you're just being a POUTY BABY, Sandy.



How do you know? Because A COMIC BOOK TOLD YOU??? :D

To anyone else who ISN'T a comic book freak, "Kryptonian" could refer to someone (or something) made out of the element Krypton. Or it could mean something else entirely.




FINALLY, you start to come around! Took you LONG ENOUGH. :D

Superman's mythos wasn't born in a day. By the SAME TOKEN, what mythos PAD built for his Supergirl series didn't happen overnight, either. He was creating a SERIES though, not some idiot shortcut terminology that could be used for RPG games everywhere.



Hey, don't look at me; I was only REPLYING TO YOU. DEAL with your new 'enlightenment', bub.

Your answers just prove my point. Just becaue you think "guardian angel" says it all, doesn't make it so. The very fact that I have to ask these questions, show that it is not self-evident or clear.

I have never said that "guardian angel" plus the content of the book together would not make the book intelligible to a newbie. All I have said is that one does not understand the PAD Supergirl by hearing that it is about a guardian angel.


Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

FINALLY, you start to come around! Took you LONG ENOUGH. :D

Superman's mythos wasn't born in a day. By the SAME TOKEN, what mythos PAD built for his Supergirl series didn't happen overnight, either. He was creating a SERIES though, not some idiot shortcut terminology that could be used for RPG games everywhere.

All I said was that to understand that Superman is from Krypton, you have to know more than Krypton is another planent. Similarly to understand that the former Supergirl was a guardian angel requires more than that mere statement. That was my point from the beginning. And you disagreed. You insisted that I must understand what a guardian angel is. You told me to google it (which proves my point that it is not self evident). If we are agreeing now, then I am delighted.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

It may be just me, but if someone gave a capsule description of a character as "She's a superhero," that would indeed be enough for me to have at least SOME comprehension of what she's all about. As opposed to, say, "She's a detective" or "She's a cowgirl." Is there more to be found out? Well, sure. "She's a superhero" doesn't tell us if she flies or crawls, has superstrength or turns into water, draws the line at killing or not.

Basically, in reading over this thread, there's one person who pretty much knows next to nothing of the entire angel storyline, isn't satisfied with a one line description, is not remotely interested in taking the time or effort to go back and read the series, and will defend to the death the right to remain in ignorance of it. Which is, y'know, fine by me. Nothing changes the fact that my run on the series (which, if I recall correctly, sold out its first issue as well and went back to press) remains the single longest run of a title called "Supergirl," beating out all the previous solo title endeavors combined. It lasted a butt-load longer than a lot of other DC titles, was in fact at the time of its last issues outselling a number of DC titles which are still being published, and is still a series I'm very proud of no matter how many people feel it wasn't worth their time to read or couldn't wrap their minds around it because it wasn't sufficiently simplistic. And why anyone is continuing a sustained argument with someone who literally doesn't know what they're talking about is beyond me.

PAD

Well, since you appear to be referring to me, and since you also appear to be misrepresenting what I said, I will respond.

First, I was not a regular reader of the book. I read the first few issues, found it wasn't precisely what I liked and decided not to continue reading it. No offense to you. I didn't hate the book. I, like most people, have a limited amount of funds and made a decision on how to allocate them. I did read the last arc with the pre-crisis Supergirl and liked it a lot.

I did not buy the earth angel issues of Supergirl, and you are right, I am not champing at the bit to read the back issues, even assuming I could find them. Again no offense intended. I just don't think that the term "guardian angel" is all you have to know to understand the book, because the term is not self defining. While saying someone is a superhero might tell you a little bit about a character, I wouldn't think that is sufficient to define a character (although I think, in the context of modern day comic books, that term is closer to self defining). In either case, you have to know more. Maybe reading a few issues is enough. But the argument being made (at least by some) was that the term "guardian angel" defines the series (or at least that portion of the series) and I don't think that can be the case. I don't even think you really dispute that. It seems to me that what you mean is that the term "guardian angel" plus whatever you pick up while reading the book is sufficient. That may well be the case, but it is not what others (or at least one other) were arguing.

In retrospect, this may be nitpicking and needn't even ha