Hal vs. Kyle?

[bran]

I've just been reading bits and pieces of Kyle, and am curious.. Is Kyle considered to be one of the weaker Green Lanterns? Apparently he isn't completely fearless like his GL brethern. In the comics too, he seems to get pounded quite regulary.

Then I've been browsing around the net, and there are some people who say that Kyle is stronger than Hal. I thought that Hal was supposed to be the best Green Lantern ever?

Meh. Just curious to what other people think I suppose.

Ciao!

[Kevinroc]

Kyle was thrown into the deep end of the pool without really being taught how to swim. So for a long time, he wasn't sure what he was doing. Now, this was extended by a number of writers who liked "rookie Kyle" even after he had been a Green Lantern for years.

A few writers (mostly Grant Morrison) wrote an extremely competent Kyle within the JLA series.

I'd say the main problem was that the character of Hal got the shaft. Literally. He went mad, destroyed the Green Lantern Corps. and became a supervillain out to remake the universe. It's no wonder his fans were pissed.

Now, this is addressed somewhat in Green Lantern Rebirth (story that brought Hal back to life and exonerated him). In the story, the other Green Lanterns (John, Guy, Kilowog and to an extent Hal previously) all fell prey to the Parallax entity.

One Green Lantern didn't. Kyle.

Why? Because unlike the other characters, Kyle feels fear but still overcomes it.

When it came time for Sinestro vs. Hal in Rebirth #5, Kyle tipped the scales in Hal's favor, forcing Sinestro to retreat.

When Parallax was running loose, Hal told everyone to do what Kyle has been doing for years. Know fear and overcome it. And that's why the Green Lanterns won in the end.

Kyle has taught them all a new way of using the rings. To be afraid but to not let it overcome you.

Who the better Lantern is is all in the eye of the beholder in the DCU. Like whoever you want. There's no need for fighting. Rebirth wasn't just about Hal. It was about Kyle too. And the other Lanterns.

[Forsaken_One]

I've got a bad feeling about this...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Kyle because he's a normal every day guy who one day gets the ring and tossed into the pool. Marz wrote the best Kyle Rayner. A guy who had to pretty much overcome his rookie mistakes and still show his mettle to win.

[Alan2099]

Kyle always seemed much more intresting to me. He was an ordinary Joe that just happend to have somebody stop by and say "By the way, you're now one of the most powerful people in existance. Have fun."

The ring runs on the will and imagiantion of it's user. Hal just typcially comes up with boxing gloves and bird cages. Kyle makes Conan the Barbarian, fighter jets being piloted by swimsuit models, giant robot mechs, huge guns, and all sorts of fun stuff.

Hal, I always felt was dull. Becoming a villain was probably the most intresting thing he ever did. granted, they didn't do the best job writting it, but the idea of a hero flipping out and then just going "screw it. I'm doing things the way they should be done." could have been a very intresting concept to explore.

[moebius]

Hal Jordan never seems to have been able to carry his own series for more than a few years at a time. I'm still fairly certain that even this GL series will fail/get dull if Johns leaves and no other A-list creator replaces him.

Kyle, on the other hand, was the DC answer to Spider-Man. Young guy whose personal life could be as interesting or more interesting than his adventures. That made him a rarity as far as DC icons go.

Anyway, we'll see.

[Grimm24]

Yeah, Kyle is proboly my third favirote GL (behind Hal and Guy)

My least favirote is John, he just seems like the bland GL, there isnt anything cool about him really

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Kyle's more than proven himself by this point, I dunno why this is even an issue anymore.

[comicstar100]

Kyle. He is the first character I really read in the DCU. I could relate to him, he was just a regular guy that was given the most powerfull weapon in the universe. He soon learns it comes with responsibilty, and that he is a part of the once great GL history that was taken down by parallax. Like Hal said he held the mantle when nobody could. I'm still a Hal fan, rebirth was great. If I could ever get DC to send me Rebirth six I might actully get to finish it grrr damn mailing service lol. Btw I heared Hal punched out batman, I'm sure that caused alot of fan backlash lol.

[Lightbend]

Kyle's always been my fav. He's a creative, imaginative guy who suddenly finds himself with something that puts those thoughts to life, and now hangs out with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the rest of the JLA.

The best way to put it is in the Starro arc in JLA, where Daniel (Dream), tells him that he will surpass Hal.

"Why? What do I know that Hal didn't?"

"Fear. You will surpass him."

Great coincidental foreshadow.

[Kevinroc]

Kyle's always been my fav. He's a creative, imaginative guy who suddenly finds himself with something that puts those thoughts to life, and now hangs out with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the rest of the JLA.

The best way to put it is in the Starro arc in JLA, where Daniel (Dream), tells him that he will surpass Hal.

"Why? What do I know that Hal didn't?"

"Fear. You will surpass him."

Great coincidental foreshadow.

It wasn't coincidental. Geoff Johns admitted he used that scene to justify Kyle's role in Rebirth.

[Desaad]

Hal is definitely my favorite.

And since the original question was dealing with POWER, I'll go out on a limb and say that Hal was considerably more powerful than Kyle, or at the very least much more versatile and competent in a battle.

Every time Kyle/Hal have met up, or faced similar opponents, Hal has proven the superior. He's got more will (The whole point of Rebirth was that only Hal had the will power capable of defeating Parallax, and we saw what happened when Parallax attacked all the GL's...only Hal survived), and he's got more skill with the ring.

Kyle arguably has the more impressive "power" feats....holding Heaven's Ladder together, for one, and containing Solaris for a bit is another but old school GL's have done things as impressive, IMHO, like sealing Black Holes and putting entire planets together.

In terms of Power, I'd say Hal is a much better Green Lantern than Kyle.

As to how interesting each would be...very much in the eye of the beholder.



Astro

[We R. Venom]

Kyle. I really dont need to go into his qualifications do I? We know what he is and what he can do. (Arguably) the best GL! And its not about kyle being better than hal, its about kyle being kyle.

[Captain Jim]

I've got a bad feeling about this...

Me too. I'm wondering if we shouldn't add "no Kyle vs. Hal" threads to the Rules for Discussion, since they always seem to end up in heated shouting matches. I'll let this go for the moment, but the second things get out of hand, I'm locking it.

[Captain Jim]

Hal Jordan never seems to have been able to carry his own series for more than a few years at a time.

Nonsense. Hal was one of the most popular characters during the silver age of comics and his original title ran for years and years.

I'm still fairly certain that even this GL series will fail/get dull if Johns leaves and no other A-list creator replaces him.

Any comic is only as good as the creators who work on it.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Nonsense. Hal was one of the most popular characters during the silver age of comics and his original title ran for years and years.

Any comic is only as good as the creators who work on it.

Jim, Jim, Jim, don't try to use logic and facts against this stuff. That way lies madness. Just shout your personal taste as fact, along with a bunch of half-truths and outright lies to support your arguement. That's what these pointless Kyle vs. Hal debates are all about!

Here, let me show you:

HAL IS BETTER THAN KYLE BECAUSE I LIKE HIM MORE!

KYLE IS STUPID AND ONLY TWELVE PEOPLE ACTUALLY BOUGHT HIS COMIC.

See?

That's the way its done.

[PFunk]

(sigh) Here we go with this Hal vs Kyle BS again.

[west3man]

Kyle's more than proven himself by this point, I dunno why this is even an issue anymore.
I think, in this case, it's because the person asking the question, like so many people, doesn't know as much about GL history as you do... or as I do, apparently.



I wonder about something someone else said in this thread, though. Are ALL GL's supposed fearless? I thought Hal was sought out due to his fearlessness, but NOT that it was a GL-requirement.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I wonder about something someone else said in this thread, though. Are ALL GL's supposed fearless? I thought Hal was sought out due to his fearlessness, but NOT that it was a GL-requirement.

Originally, the requirement for all members of the Corps was that they be both fearless and honest, something that everyone from Abin Sur to Hal to John to Guy are, but in very different ways, of course.

Kyle is unique in that he is the only Green Lantern who isn't fearless....although he probably qualifies as honest. As a result, Kyle was able to do what no other GL was able and resist Parallax. thus surpassing Hal and the rest of the GLs as Sandman had prophesized in that nifty JLA story Grant Morrison wrote.

[Lightbend]

That may have been, but according to the latest version, fearlessness was recommended-it allowed one to use the Ring without drawing on Parallax. Which is where the Yellow Impurity came from, as well-yellow is the color of fear, so to not know fear is to be unable to affect it.

Kyle, on the other hand, was never going to be a GL, until everything went FUBAR. He provided a new perspective that, quite frankly, the Guardians never would have thought of. Immortal beings of near-absolute power tend to become set in their ways.

[west3man]

Thanks for the info.

I find it odd that the fearLESS would be MORE vulnerable to a fear monster than someone who is fearFUL, but that's the way it is, now... until it isn't, anyway.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Thanks for the info.

I find it odd that the fearLESS would be MORE vulnerable to a fear monster than someone who is fearFUL, but that's the way it is, now... until it isn't, anyway.

A fearful person is affraid of Parallax and thus makes it even more powerful, whereas a fearless person isn't affraid, which keeps Parallax in check.

The Guardians' plan to imprison Parallax required fearless ring-bearers so that Parallax couldn't feed off them and break free. Cut off from his only source of energy, Parallax pretty much went into a coma and was no longer a threat for billions upon billions of years.

The problem was that The Guardians went too far in trying to starve Parallax when they decided to cover up its existence altogether. While they suceeded in making sure Parallax couldn't feed off of any fear because nobody even knew of its existence beyond the Yellow Impurity, it did allow Parallax to infect Hal, who never saw Parallax coming. If Hal had been full of fear, like Kyle, he would have felt Parallax's presence before it took over his mind.

Granted, the Guardians' prison for Parallax actually would have worked just fine if Sinestro hadn't gotten into the Central Power Battery to wake Parallax up. Up until Hal & Sinestro, the Guardians didn't think it was even possible for someone to enter the Central Power Battery. To date, only Hal & Sinestro have been able to do that.

As smart as those old blue midgets are, even their giant heads can't think of everything....

[Alan2099]

Every time Kyle/Hal have met up, or faced similar opponents, Hal has proven the superior.
Thata ctually bugs me. Not that I'm going to argue about how one is so much better than the other or anytghing, but whenever Hal shows up, Kyle suddenly seems to become weak and incompetent, when he's more than prooved himself time and time again. It seems like the writters tend to go out of there way to say that Hal is oh so superior to Kyle, who has already had several years of expierence by this point. (DC time.)

[west3man]

A fearful person is affraid of Parallax and thus makes it even more powerful, whereas a fearless person isn't affraid, which keeps Parallax in check.
That seems to contradict this:

Kyle is unique in that he is the only Green Lantern who isn't fearless....although he probably qualifies as honest. As a result, Kyle was able to do what no other GL was able and resist Parallax. thus surpassing Hal and the rest of the GLs as Sandman had prophesized in that nifty JLA story Grant Morrison wrote.

And that seems to contradict this:

The problem was that The Guardians went too far in trying to starve Parallax when they decided to cover up its existence altogether. While they suceeded in making sure Parallax couldn't feed off of any fear because nobody even knew of its existence beyond the Yellow Impurity, it did allow Parallax to infect Hal, who never saw Parallax coming. If Hal had been full of fear, like Kyle, he would have felt Parallax's presence before it took over his mind.

I think the element I may be missing has to do with Sinestro waking Parallax. How'd he even know about Parallax, let alone wake him? Even if he could, how would that fact override the previously stated factors, like the absence of fear in the Green Lanterns... particularly he who was supposedly the best and most fearless of them all?

*scratches head*

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think the element I may be missing has to do with Sinestro waking Parallax. How'd he even know about Parallax, let alone wake him? Even if he could, how would that fact override the previously stated factors, like the absence of fear in the Green Lanterns... particularly he who was supposedly the best and most fearless of them all?

*scratches head*

Sinestro spent a good deal of his time unearthing all the dirty little secrets the Guardians had been keeping from everyone, like the dreaded Sector 3600, the scandalous Zamaron/Korugarian interbreeding and the Yellow Impurity. He's a very sneaky guy, that Sinestro...

As to the rest, I think I haven't been expressing myself clearly enough. Lemme try again.

Parallax feeds on fear, so the Guardians imprisoned him within the Central Power Battery and only allowed fearless ring-bearers to tap into its power. As a result, Parallax was essentially starved into a coma and was neutralized as a threat.

To make sure nobody tried to free Parallax, the Guardians covered up its existence. In time, Parallax simply became known as the mysterious Yellow Impurity within the CPB.

Fast forward several billion years when Sinestro gets inside the Central Power Battery and wakes the Yellow Impurity up. Now, this wouldn't have really accomplished anything if Sinestro hadn't shown Parallax how to infect Hal Jordan through his ring. Because Hal was fearless, Parallax was able to sneak into his mind without him noticing. Had this happened to Kyle, he would have felt Parallax before it had a chance to get a foothold in his mind. The irony here is that Hal's lack of fear made him an ideal candidate for infection by Parallax. And Hal being the greatest of the Corps gave Parallax a particularly powerful host body to wreak havoc with.

The key factor here really is Sinestro. Without him, Parallax would have been stuck within the Central Power Battery, unable to do much of anything since Parallax couldn't feed off the fearless ring-bearers, but it could infect them through their rings once Sinestro showed it how.

Does that make more sense?

[pureclint]

Didnt' Sinestro learn about P when he got imprisoned in the Battery? Then he woke him up and set his plan in motion.

[handOFfate]

Who's the more powerful GL? I think its been established that Hal (who has a lot more experience) is the more competent Green Lantern at this point. Kyle started off from not knowing how to use the ring properly to being very dangerous because of his creativity. He could probably take John or Guy, not so sure about Kilowag. Kyle will pass Hal in power someday, just like Wally eventually passed Barry.

[west3man]

ToNow, this wouldn't have really accomplished anything if Sinestro hadn't shown Parallax how to infect Hal Jordan through his ring. Was this due to more of his sneakiness?
How would he know something the guardians, apparently, didn't know?

Because Hal was fearless, Parallax was able to sneak into his mind without him noticing. Had this happened to Kyle, he would have felt Parallax before it had a chance to get a foothold in his mind. The irony here is that Hal's lack of fear made him an ideal candidate for infection by Parallax. And Hal being the greatest of the Corps gave Parallax a particularly powerful host body to wreak havoc with. He got into him, but controlling him?

The key factor here really is Sinestro. Without him, Parallax would have been stuck within the Central Power Battery, unable to do much of anything since Parallax couldn't feed off the fearless ring-bearers, but it could infect them through their rings once Sinestro showed it how.

Does that make more sense?With nothing to feed off of, I don't see how this was a possibility... or why it'd be worth 'Lax's time.


But I do think that cleared up some stuff for me. Thanks, again, B@3.

[Chaos_Sentry]

I'm against this but since I don't feel like pwning you, I'm just gonna say Kyle Rayner.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Was this due to more of his sneakiness?
How would he know something the guardians, apparently, didn't know?
.

Yep, the Guardians didn't know that Parallax could do more than simply feed off of fear. His ability to infect a ring-bearer and therby control them through a power ring is something they didn't know was possible, just like they didn't think it was possible for anyone to enter the Battery itself. Keep in mind that Hal & Sinestro are unique in this regard. Nobody else has been able to do this. Remember that Sinestro has had access to the greatest minds of Qward for all these years, who probably know more about how power rings work than anybody except the Guardians themselves...

Also keep in mind that Parallax could only infect ring-bearers, which is why Parallax never went after the rest of the JLA and was only able to make Alan Scott sick for a spell.


He got into him, but controlling him?

With nothing to feed off of, I don't see how this was a possibility... or why it'd be worth 'Lax's time.

But I do think that cleared up some stuff for me. Thanks, again, B@3.

Since he was now within his mind thanks to the ring, Parallax reversed his usual tactics with Hal. Instead of feeding off of fear, Parallax actually created fear in Hal and used that fear and doubt to influence Hal's actions. Once Hal merged with the Central Power Battery (including the Yellow Impurity), Parallax grafted itself onto Hal's soul during the merger and the two became virtually the same being.

As to why it would be worth Parallax's time, well, through Hal, Parallax managed to not only destroy the Corps, but also got to kill his jailers and gained nearly unlimited power in the process.

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

[Kevinroc]

Yep, the Guardians didn't know that Parallax could do more than simply feed off of fear. His ability to infect a ring-bearer and therby control them through a power ring is something they didn't know was possible, just like they didn't think it was possible for anyone to enter the Battery itself. Keep in mind that Hal & Sinestro are unique in this regard. Nobody else has been able to do this. Remember that Sinestro has had access to the greatest minds of Qward for all these years, who probably know more about how power rings work than anybody except the Guardians themselves...

Also keep in mind that Parallax could only infect ring-bearers, which is why Parallax never went after the rest of the JLA and was only able to make Alan Scott sick for a spell.



Since he was now within his mind thanks to the ring, Parallax reversed his usual tactics with Hal. Instead of feeding off of fear, Parallax actually created fear in Hal and used that fear and doubt to influence Hal's actions. Once Hal merged with the Central Power Battery (including the Yellow Impurity), Parallax grafted itself onto Hal's soul during the merger and the two became virtually the same being.

As to why it would be worth Parallax's time, well, through Hal, Parallax managed to not only destroy the Corps, but also got to kill his jailers and gained nearly unlimited power in the process.

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

And they destroy Hal's reputation in the process, so it was pretty sweet on Sinestro's end as well.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

And they destroy Hal's reputation in the process, so it was pretty sweet on Sinestro's end as well.

Yeah, that's the thing I like about Sinestro. Whatever ends up happening, he usually ends up getting what he wants.