Soujiro vs Enishi [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Kraah

08-08-2005, 12:25 PM

Enishi.

He can reach Soujiro's speeds with the Nerves of Insanity, and is skilled enough to counter both the Kuzu Ryu Sen and Ama Kakeru Ryu no Hirameki (actually, the first time he got hit with it, Enishi just took the Kuzu Ryu Sen and kept on fighting... he took it better than Shishio did. That says something about his durability). Enishi just has too many advantages, and he doesn't rely as much on reading his opponent as Kenshin does (which is why Soujiro's emotionless state caused problems for Kenshin).

Too many advantages gives Enishi the win, unless Soujiro somehow exploits the sonic vulnerability of Nerves of Insanity.

KamenRaida

08-08-2005, 05:09 PM

True to that, Kraah! Though I think Enishi will only allow his 'Nerves of Insanity' to take control when Soujirou deals enough blows to piss him of. And speed is where Enishi most definitely has the advantage. When Soujirou was using his speed technique (forgotten what it was called), Kenshin could at least see his trail.

When Enishi used his Nerves of Insanity, Kenshin did not even see Enishi as he appeared RIGHT BEHIND HIM! That definitely is going to be what gives Enishi the win.

The Real Nemo

08-08-2005, 11:53 PM

Enishi was only able to counter Kenshin's techniques because his entire style was based on doing so, plus he'd already seen the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki done once. There's no way he could counter the Shuntensatsu the same way...

True to that, Kraah! Though I think Enishi will only allow his 'Nerves of Insanity' to take control when Soujirou deals enough blows to piss him of. And speed is where Enishi most definitely has the advantage. When Soujirou was using his speed technique (forgotten what it was called), Kenshin could at least see his trail.
His bouncing around every corner of the room may have had something to do with that.

When Enishi used his Nerves of Insanity, Kenshin did not even see Enishi as he appeared RIGHT BEHIND HIM! That definitely is going to be what gives Enishi the win.
Soujiro did the same thing when he dodged the Kuzu Ryu Sen and slashed Kenshin across the back, and he wasn't even going at full speed then. His full speed is equal to Kenshin's Amamkakeru Ryu no Hirameki, that's more than Enishi could say.

KamenRaida

08-08-2005, 11:58 PM

Oh yeah! I completely forgotten that! Sorry... Its been a while since I saw the anime, and I only have the Enishi arc as a reference >.>

Though you did bring a valid point that Enishi's fighting style was meant to counter Kenshin's own style. However, if Enishi sees a vision of Tomoe smiling >.>

Well... I still will not be sure of what happens though I can guess that he'd have a much better chance than he did before. But if he sees his sister frowning... Enishi loses, period.

Kraah

08-09-2005, 12:45 AM

The point was that Enishi's technique reading and countering skills are at least equal to Shishio's, considering how he dealt with the techniques he'd seen.

The Real Nemo

08-09-2005, 12:57 AM

The point was that Enishi's technique reading and countering skills are at least equal to Shishio's, considering how he dealt with the techniques he'd seen.
The thing is though Soujiro doesn't even have any techniques to counter other than the Shuntensatsu, which is nothing more than a straight speed move with no fancy tricks to it. His ability to counter skills and techniques wouldn't really help him much against someone like Soujiro who has no real style and only uses his pure genius ability...

Kraah

08-09-2005, 02:44 AM

Meh. Enishi found holes in Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu. He can find holes in the Tenken too. Just because an attack "is just a really fast attack", doesn't mean it can't stopped. It doesn't need to have a trick to it to be countered. Hell, Kenshin countered some of Shishio's moves, which very pretty basic (like Shishio's entire style).

And there's no proof that the Nerves of Insanity can't match the Shuntensatsu. Shuntensatsu was as fast a Kyoto Kenshin's Ougi, which is wildly different from the Ougi that finally defeated Enishi.

Enishi can match Soujiro for speed, and outclasses him in Strength, and by alot in durability, plus he has alot of versatility with his large arsenal of techniques.

The Real Nemo

08-09-2005, 02:41 PM

Meh. Enishi found holes in Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu.
Again, his entire style was built around countering the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu...

Guts/Batman

08-09-2005, 02:43 PM

Again, his entire style was built around countering the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu...

That is true.

This fight finally gets some pub lol. ( I made it a few weeks ago) LOL

Kraah

08-09-2005, 03:00 PM

Again, his entire style was built around countering the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu...
IIRC the Manga never explicitly stated that. Enishi trained *to* defeat Kenshin, but he found the groundwork for the style in a chinese book, and combined it with a japanese swordsmanship. I doubt he created anti-techniques to HMR techs he hadn't even seen, or could possibly know about.

He's like Shishio, he sees a technique, then counters that technique when it's used on him later.

And then we're left with at least equal speed, tons more durability, and more strength.

Gongjin

08-09-2005, 04:27 PM

Correct. Yukishiro Enishi's base style was Watou-jutsu, which was not his own creation. The idea behind his underlying technique was originally to blend the best aspects of Chinese and Japanese sword arts, combining the continent's agility and flexibility with the island's speed and power.

Also, the scenario seems to imply that Enishi will begin the fight already with the "Nerves of Insanity" in play (he should be pretty enraged to find his squad dead..that would mess up his plan quite a bit), so Soujirou won't be catching him off guard with Shuntenshatsu. He'll be able to see it coming with his altered neural network and counter accordingly..his succession technique, "Zetsugi Kofuku Zettou Sei," should work as well against the Shuntenshatsu as it did against the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki, since it seems to be designed to defeat battoujutsu with that opening crouch.

Kraah

08-09-2005, 04:37 PM

Actually Enishi's Ougi exploited the centrifugal force of the Ama Kakeru Ryu No Hirameki, which is different from the Shuntensatsu.

Even so, I still don't see Soujiro taking it, with Enishi matching or outclassing him in every way.

Gongjin

08-09-2005, 04:40 PM

It exploited the centripetal force of the vaccuum created by the first swing, yes, but the initial crouch of the Zetsugi Kofuku Zettou Sei still had to be fast enough to evade the first stage of the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki, the initial draw. Since the Shuntenshatsu isn't faster than Kenshin's ougi and is the same basic motion, Enishi's technique could probably evade it as well.

Arguing over this is probably moot though, we all seemt o agree.

The Real Nemo

08-10-2005, 09:59 PM

Correct. Yukishiro Enishi's base style was Watou-jutsu, which was not his own creation. The idea behind his underlying technique was originally to blend the best aspects of Chinese and Japanese sword arts, combining the continent's agility and flexibility with the island's speed and power.
That much I knew, but I thought it was said that he adapted it specifically to counter Kenshin's style.

In any case, I'm not convinced that Nerves of Insanity Enishi is as fast or faster than Soujiro's full Shukuchi, which we never even saw the full potential of except during the Shuntensatsu. It seems like Enishi's best speed feats are no better than what Soujiro could do at two steps below. Frankly I'm surprised more people haven't come in on Soujiro's side since IIRC the consensus was that he would win when this was posted on the old board. At the very least I know CBF thought he would win (though to be fair he's admitted to loathing Enishi as a character).

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 05:41 PM

That much I knew, but I thought it was said that he adapted it specifically to counter Kenshin's style.

In any case, I'm not convinced that Nerves of Insanity Enishi is as fast or faster than Soujiro's full Shukuchi, which we never even saw the full potential of except during the Shuntensatsu. It seems like Enishi's best speed feats are no better than what Soujiro could do at two steps below. Frankly I'm surprised more people haven't come in on Soujiro's side since IIRC the consensus was that he would win when this was posted on the old board. At the very least I know CBF thought he would win (though to be fair he's admitted to loathing Enishi as a character).

I agree, Enishi's greatest speed feat is the same thing that Soujiro did with two steps short. The guy had another two gears left in the tank, and the Shutensatsu was actually faster then the ARNK in the manga, and that was coming form a Soujiro that was going out of his mind. Which is what allowed Kenshin to read him like a book, something Enishi can't do.

Aubergine~!

01-01-2010, 05:54 PM

Surprised I didn't comment on this back in the day.

Soujirou curbstomps Enishi. Massive speed difference here, and he won't be messing around like he was with Kenshin.

Better fight? Soujirou vs. Banjin.

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 06:10 PM

In any case, I'm not convinced that Nerves of Insanity Enishi is as fast or faster than Soujiro's full Shukuchi, which we never even saw the full potential of except during the Shuntensatsu. It seems like Enishi's best speed feats are no better than what Soujiro could do at two steps below.

The only thing that prevented Kenshin from reading Shukuchi was Soujirou's emotionless state. OTOH, Nerves of Insanity had Enishi oneupping Kenshin after he has already reacted.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 06:15 PM

I think that Soujirou's the faster runner, but Enishi might have the faster reflexes, what with the fact that Soujirou bodily dodged the Kuzu Ryu Sen as a whole while NoI Enishi flat out blocked the individual strikes. And in a non-ceilinged battleground like the arena, Enishi probably has the superior air-game, as Soujirou will be missing an entire plane that he can bounce/run on to help close distance.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 06:34 PM

I think that Soujirou's the faster runner, but Enishi might have the faster reflexes, what with the fact that Soujirou bodily dodged the Kuzu Ryu Sen as a whole while NoI Enishi flat out blocked the individual strikes.
That was the first and only time Soujirou had ever seen that move, Enishi got tagged and had to tank it the first time he saw it and by the time he stopped the inividual heads he had seen the move multiple times. And are you sure that he didn't dodge the individual strikes. Kenshin made all nine heads and if you look at Soujirou's clothes he had a slash mark on his shirt at the shoulders.

And in a non-ceilinged battleground like the arena, Enishi probably has the superior air-game, as Soujirou will be missing an entire plane that he can bounce/run on to help close distance.
On the other hand he seemed to be everywhere at once at one step short and he never used the true Shukuchi on him either which he will be using on Enishi.

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 06:36 PM

NoI Enishi flat out blocked the individual strikes.

Regular Enishi blocked the Kuzuryusen. NoI Enishi stopped Kenshin before he ever pulled it off.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 06:36 PM

What Soujiro did at the end of his fight with Kenshin wasn't the real Shun Ten Satsu. Kenshin specifically noted that his speed lowered after his mental breakdown, meaning that he didn't execute the technique correctly due to being on the verge of falling on the ground and crying.

As for the fight, Nerves of Insanity is out. Why? Because Enishi can only bust out the NoI when things related to Kenshin happen. Such as Kenshin standing before him and insisting that he won't allow himself to be thrown to Hell.

Meaning Soujiro blitz the holy hell out of him.

That aside, against the Nine Strikes, Soujiro was actually running toward him when Kenshin used the tech. Soujiro then proceeded to move faster than he could see and ended up behind him.

Enishi blocked them after seeing it once. And his style is pretty much custom-made to counter Kenshin's. It wasn't speed. (Note that Enishi took it in the face the first time.)

And even assuming you included the NoI, there's nothing stopping Soujiro from blitzing Enishi before his Nerves fire up.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 06:44 PM

The entire fight against Kenshin seemed to be that Soujirou was faster at running, but Kenshin was faster at reacting, which is why their ultimate battoujutsu were about even with each other in terms of speed; Soujirou was making up the difference by using his full charging speed and Kenshin shored up the remainder by stepping with his left foot. And I doubt that that was anything less than Soujirou's full speed, as he seemed to be putting everything into his final attack to see whether or not Shishio's ideals were true or not. IIRC, Kenshin didn't say that his speed had lowered after his breakdown, but that his emotionless state was gone, which means that Kenshin no longer had to react at the absolute last second like he had been the entire rest of the fight.

However NoI Enishi flat out stated that he was blitzing Kenshin by reacting after Kenshin had already started reacting to Enishi's original strike, despite the fact that Kenshin's ki-sense should have allowed him to react even faster than normal to Enishi's completely uncontrolled emotions.

But good point about the NoI being caused by his fury towards Kenshin (though apparently he used it enough times against people other than Kenshin for his partner to recognize it), and that he won't have time to get it ready.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 06:46 PM

The entire fight against Kenshin seemed to be that Soujirou was faster at running, but Kenshin was faster at reacting, which is why their ultimate battoujutsu were about even with each other in terms of speed; Soujirou was making up the difference by using his full charging speed and Kenshin shored up the remainder by stepping with his left foot. And I doubt that that was anything less than Soujirou's full speed, as he seemed to be putting everything into his final attack to see whether or not Shishio's ideals were true or not. IIRC, Kenshin didn't say that his speed had lowered after his breakdown, but that his emotionless state was gone, which means that Kenshin no longer had to react at the absolute last second like he had been the entire rest of the fight.
Actually, Kenshin noted that there was a clear difference between his sword speed prior and after.

Give me a few minutes, I'll go scan hunting.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 06:54 PM

Actually, Kenshin noted that there was a clear difference between his sword speed prior and after.

Give me a few minutes, I'll go scan hunting.
Ah, here's the pages where they talk about the Shuntensatsu:

http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/05
http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/09/

It looked like he calmed down and was using his full strength as a show of both respect and to test out whose ideals were stronger.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 06:56 PM

Kenshin specifically notes that Soujiro's entire body moves at those speeds, not just his feet. (http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/13/)
Soujiro gets behind him and slashes him without him noticing. (http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/16/)
-I will note that in the anime, Soujiro gets right in front of him and is about to slash him again when he notices his shoes are broken. I'm not sure if you count anime though, it doesn't happen in the manga.
It would seem that the speed comment is also anime-only, as I can't find it.-
However, both Kenshin and Soujiro note that he can't execute his move correctly in his current state. (http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/05/)
That aside, it's stated that the speed of their swords would be "almost equal", meaning that Soujiro was still a bit faster. (In addition to seeing through the technique's telling signs despite being in his state)

The fact that Enishi's entire style is based around beating Kenshin, and that he specifically note that he's doing so well since he's already seen all of Kenshin's techniques really hurt him.
Especially given that he has no defensive actions whatsoever, since a big part of his character is that he always attacks..

Siriel

01-01-2010, 06:57 PM

Ah, here's the pages where they talk about the Shuntensatsu:

http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/05
http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/09/

It looked like he calmed down and was using his full strength as a show of both respect and to test out whose ideals were stronger.

Thing is, saying that you'll fight all-out and overcoming the fact that your emotions are breaking down for the first time in years are two very different things.

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 06:59 PM

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:00 PM

Thing is, saying that you'll fight all-out and overcoming the fact that your emotions are breaking down for the first time in years are two very different things.His emotionlessness was never said to be part of his speed, it was the reason why Kenshin couldn't move-read him. Once he lost that, then Kenshin was able to predict and react fast enough to keep pace with Soujirou's much faster movement speed.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:03 PM

The NoI can be triggered by anybody, not just Kenshin. Remember that it was first introduced during Enishi and Heishin's argument after the Kenshingumi had landed, and Heishin's words to the Sushin/Shishin implies that he had seen it several times in the past.
Errr...

"Hey, boss! I'm going to fuck with your revenge, that you've being preparing for your entire life!"

Of course that's going to send the guy into berserk. It was still entirely dependent on Kenshin's involvement.

That aside, statements are kinda meaningless. Enishi's only been shown to reach that state when his entire life and revenge was taken away.

His emotionlessness was never said to be part of his speed, it was the reason why Kenshin couldn't move-read him. Once he lost that, then Kenshin was able to predict and react fast enough to keep pace with Soujirou's much faster movement speed.
So, going crazy and losing control of yourself will not affect your fighting abilities?

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:04 PM

It should also be noted that during the first fight with Kenshin (as later noted by Sano), Enishi wasn't going full out because he wanted Kenshin to live on and suffer with his failure. In the second fight, he was managing to more or less match Kenshin in terms of reflexes (even with a specific counter-style and prior experience, he needed the reflexes and speed necessary to keep up with a Kuzuryusen in order to block it in that manner -- which is also a good feat for defense) and power.

But still, Soujirou being serious would probably use his Shuntensatsu before Enishi manages to break out the NoI, and I'd give Soujirou the edge in that as it seems to work on different principles than the Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 07:06 PM

He doesn't react untill after the Nine heads are made and Soujirou was untouched before the Nine heads.
http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/14/

Then after Kenshin starts the attack you hear the tat tat tat sound effects of Soujirou's speed.
http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/15/

Then Soujirou appears behind him just as Kenshin realised he has missed.
http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/16/

And after the attack his shirt was nicked by one of the Nine heads which explains why Kenshin thought he hit him and why he was surprised that he missed and Soujiro still blitzed him form behind. Oh and all this was still two steps short of Shukuchi the guy had another two gears left in the tank.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:07 PM

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:10 PM

So, going crazy and losing control of yourself will not affect your fighting abilities?
In manga, specifically one about a guy who tended to go to full power when he went berserk and started having flashbacks before he learned to access that power at all times? It's certainly not going to slow them down, especially if it lessens the awesomeness of the fight. And saying that Soujirou was "losing control of [him]self" is a bit of an exaggeration, as the only thing he lost control of was his ability to hide his emotions and make sense during a conversation. It's not like he was randomly flailing at things or suddenly not being much faster than Kenshin in terms of running speed.

Heck, Anji having more or less the exact same kind revelation had him surpassing all logical physical limitations a few chapters before that.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:12 PM

In manga, specifically one about a guy who tended to go to full power when he went berserk and started having flashbacks before he learned to access that power at all times? It's certainly not going to slow them down, especially if it lessens the awesomeness of the fight. And saying that Soujirou was "losing control of [him]self" is a bit of an exaggeration, as the only thing he lost control of was his ability to hide his emotions and make sense during a conversation. It's not like he was randomly flailing at things or suddenly not being much faster than Kenshin in terms of running speed.

Heck, Anji having more or less the exact same kind revelation had him surpassing all logical physical limitations a few chapters before that.

Funny you should mention that, actually. Soujiro attacks the floor/wall for no reason when he tells Kenshin to prepare himself.:tongue:

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 07:22 PM

Errr...

"Hey, boss! I'm going to fuck with your revenge, that you've being preparing for your entire life!"

Of course that's going to send the guy into berserk. It was still entirely dependent on Kenshin's involvement.

That aside, statements are kinda meaningless. Enishi's only been shown to reach that state when his entire life and revenge was taken away.

Uh, the conversation revolved around Heishin wanting to stay, and Enishi wanting him to leave because he annoyed him. That the former persisted was what drove Enishi mad enough to manifest the NoI, and had Heishin stuck around it would have probably come out fully. Kenshin had nothing to do with it.

That and Heishin's later statements to the Sushin/Shishin suggest that the NoI isn't new to him. As Enishi's no.2 he would know about Enishi's strength more than anyone.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:24 PM

Also, I'm reading the second Enishi fight again, and while he's mostly attacking, he doesn't seem to have any problems with blocking Kenshin's strikes with his sword and his wristguards. In fact, I don't think that Kenshin lands a single blow on him (other than the time they both knock each other down from the force of striking their swords together) until Kenshin messed with his inner ear using the Ryumeisen and Enishi popped his own eardrum to compensate, leveling the playing field between the two.

Enishi explaining how he's reacting after Kenshin reacts, despite Kenshin's move-reading. (http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/247/10/)
And here's Saitou explaining how NoI Enishi weakened himself down to Kenshin's level before their battoujutsu duel. (http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/248/11/)

But to be fair, Kenshin's previous Amakakeru no Ryuu Hirameki was weakened by his own feelings of guilt towards Enishi and Tomoe, so Enishi managing to beat it at that time is tainted, though in this case NoI Enishi is physically weakened so... (http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/249/14/)

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:27 PM

Funny you should mention that, actually. Soujiro attacks the floor/wall for no reason when he tells Kenshin to prepare himself.:tongue:
That seems to be more him just causing a small shockwave by swishing his sword in a threatening manner before sheathing it. Hiko did a much more restrained and deadly looking version of the same thing, IIRC.

Personally, I interpreted it as meaning that Shishio never taught him how to give someone the finger.:redface:

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:28 PM

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 07:29 PM

But still, Soujirou being serious would probably use his Shuntensatsu before Enishi manages to break out the NoI, and I'd give Soujirou the edge in that as it seems to work on different principles than the Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki.

Shuntensatsu and Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki's first strike (which Enishi has beaten, with or without NoI) is more or less the same thing: superfast battoujutsu. The only difference probably being a slight difference in speed and greater difference in strength.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:29 PM

That seems to be more him just causing a small shockwave by swishing his sword in a threatening manner before sheathing it.

...Thus breaking bits off the thing? With his back turned to Kenshin?

Seems a bit...inefficient.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:33 PM

Shuntensatsu and Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki's first strike (which Enishi has beaten, with or without NoI) is more or less the same thing: superfast battoujutsu. The only difference probably being a slight difference in speed and greater difference in strength.

Enishi's pretty much flat out said that he only beat it because he'd seen it before.

That aside, they're completely different. Amakakeru works by making a slice that opens up a hole in the air, luring the enemy into the second strike.

Shun Ten Satsu is essentially just slashing really, really fast. Kenshin countered it by launching himself forward and executing a Battoujutsu combined with Amakakeru to equalize the speeds.

As for Enishi beating the tech, he beat it on the amazing coincidence that his Ouji involve crouching in such a fashion that he avoids both the sword and the pull of the vaccuum.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:38 PM

Remember though, Soujirou never matched the full Amakakeru; he lost to the first strike.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 07:40 PM

Remember though, Soujirou never matched the full Amakakeru; he lost to the first strike.

Neither did Enishi, he dodged it on virtue of being too low when preparing his own Ouji.

Granted, Soujiro was an utter moron to challenge the stronger, more skilled, more experienced swordsman to a straight charge battle. I blame the mental breakdown.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 07:41 PM

...Thus breaking bits off the thing? With his back turned to Kenshin?

Seems a bit...inefficient.
Like I said, a small shockwave as a threat. Hiko did something similar, only it involved cutting a perfect slice into the ground (by Kenshin's feet, I think), and Kenshin used a similar shockwave to brush aside Misao's kunai, before he learned how to harness his Battousai speed and power without going crazy.

It's not like he was trying to avenge himself on the landscape or actually in the middle of a pass with Kenshin at the time.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 07:49 PM

Shuntensatsu and Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki's first strike (which Enishi has beaten, with or without NoI) is more or less the same thing: superfast battoujutsu. The only difference probably being a slight difference in speed and greater difference in strength.

But Enishi has never faced anything faster than the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki, and since Shundensatsu is just a combination of battoujutsu and Shukuchi and battoujutsu is just a straight ahead bull rush. Your sacrificing maneuverability for greater sword power and with Sojirou's Shukuchi which is really his baseline speed at full power, he doesn't have to use Battoujutsu with it. Honestly, the Shukuchi is better than Shuntensatsu in overall combat, and if Soujirou was thinking straight he would have used it.

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 07:58 PM

Enishi's pretty much flat out said that he only beat it because he'd seen it before.

Only to beat the second strike, because he needed to get the timing down. That has no bearing on countering the first attack.

That aside, they're completely different. Amakakeru works by making a slice that opens up a hole in the air, luring the enemy into the second strike.

Shun Ten Satsu is essentially just slashing really, really fast. Kenshin countered it by launching himself forward and executing a Battoujutsu combined with Amakakeru to equalize the speeds.

You're overthinking things. As stated in the series, in principle Shuntensatsu and Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki's first strike is more or less the same thing: superfast battoujutsu.

As for Enishi beating the tech, he beat it on the amazing coincidence that his Ouji involve crouching in such a fashion that he avoids both the sword and the pull of the vaccuum.

What does coincidence have to do with it? Beating the battoujutsu portion of the ougi would fall under Watoujutsu's principles of beating Japanese kenjutsu in general (battoujutsu being the latter principle's fastest move). The main issue is beating the vacuum (the ougi's distinguishing element) would be, as Enishi put it, him adding his own stuff into the style, which is why he needed to see it once.

But Enishi has never faced anything faster than the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki.

Why would he need to? Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki tied with Shuntensatsu.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 08:06 PM

Granted, Soujiro was an utter moron to challenge the stronger, more skilled, more experienced swordsman to a straight charge battle. I blame the mental breakdown.
Yeah, his only real advantage over Kenshin is speed and he gave it up in favor of overpowering him because he was mad......in more ways that one.

That aside, they're completely different. Amakakeru works by making a slice that opens up a hole in the air, luring the enemy into the second strike.

Shun Ten Satsu is essentially just slashing really, really fast. Kenshin countered it by launching himself forward and executing a Battoujutsu combined with Amakakeru to equalize the speeds.
That's what has always drove me crazy about Soujirou he doesn't even need Shun Ten Satsu to go that fast it's his basline speed. Honestly, Shukuchi is to Soujirou what Godspeed is to Kenshin. Kenshin's ARNH amps his speed to beyond its normal levels(beyond godspeed) and it's still not as fast as Shun Ten Satsu. If only he used Shukuchi to bounce around like he did earlier...... Kenshin would have had a shank in his back.

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 08:08 PM

BTW, why does Soujirou get the luxury of being OOC and going all out with Shukuchi, while Enishi has to stay in character and not use NoI right off the bat?

Siriel

01-01-2010, 08:11 PM

That's what has always drove me crazy about Soujirou he doesn't even need Shun Ten Satsu to go that fast it's his basline speed. Honestly, Shukuchi is to Soujirou what Godspeed is to Kenshin. Kenshin's ARNH amps his speed to beyond its normal levels(beyond godspeed) and it's still not as fast as Shun Ten Satsu. If only he used Shukuchi to bounce around like he did earlier...... Kenshin would have had a shank in his back.
Shun Ten Satsu increase his sword speed.

BTW, why does Soujirou get the luxury of being OOC and going all out with Shukuchi, while Enishi has to stay in character and not use NoI right off the bat?
Because it's in-character for Soujiro to kill someone who has no problem killing people. He fucked around with Kenshin because he considered that someone who didn't kill couldn't possibly be strong enough to beat him.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 08:15 PM

BTW, why does Soujirou get the luxury of being OOC and going all out with Shukuchi, while Enishi has to stay in character and not use NoI right off the bat?
To be fair, Soujirou himself explained that the only reason he wasn't using Shukichi at the start of his fight against Kenshin was because Kenshin's no-killing philosophy offended him to the point of wanting to stomp him with his weakest set.

Enishi... is not going to activate that.

Also, Shuntensatsu was said to be equal in speed to Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki, and they're both the fastest single slash that either the Shukichi or Godspeed are capable of, as they're full out charges that end with a full out battoujutsu. EDIT: They're equal cause Kenshin's battoujutsu was faster than Soujirou's, but Soujirou's charge was faster than Kenshin's.

And it wasn't really a bad idea as much as it was unnecessarily risky; it was more of an ideological thing for Soujirou, and the last time they did it, Kenshin ended up with his sword chopped in half and Soujirou still able to fight with a sword that was of lesser quality than the one he had for that fight. Of course, that was before Kenshin got his own Shishio class sword, a new succession technique, and learned to control his full power, but OTOH, Kenshin was holding back in order to avoid killing and his sword's shape and construction slows down the speed of his strike. All in all, from what Soujirou knew about Kenshin at that time, he had a pretty good chance of winning.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 08:16 PM

In manga, specifically one about a guy who tended to go to full power when he went berserk and started having flashbacks before he learned to access that power at all times? It's certainly not going to slow them down, especially if it lessens the awesomeness of the fight. And saying that Soujirou was "losing control of [him]self" is a bit of an exaggeration, as the only thing he lost control of was his ability to hide his emotions and make sense during a conversation. It's not like he was randomly flailing at things or suddenly not being much faster than Kenshin in terms of running speed.

Heck, Anji having more or less the exact same kind revelation had him surpassing all logical physical limitations a few chapters before that.

Mental state has a huge part in Soujirou's game it was the main reason he lost, infact Kenshin questioned whether or not Soujiro could even use Shun Ten Satsu.http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/05/

Siriel

01-01-2010, 08:17 PM

EDIT: They're equal cause Kenshin's battoujutsu was faster than Soujirou's, but Soujirou's charge was faster than Kenshin's.

The exact is "almost equal" so Shun Ten Satsu is still a bit faster.

Saitou Hajime

01-01-2010, 08:20 PM

Because it's in-character for Soujiro to kill someone who has no problem killing people. He fucked around with Kenshin because he considered that someone who didn't kill couldn't possibly be strong enough to beat him.

I'm talking about attacking Enishi with his full speed right off the bat. It's not in-character for him to do that with an opponent he has no prior experience with.

And he wasn't holding back on killing Kenshin. He was surprised that he didn't kill the first time he tagged him.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 08:22 PM

Mental state has a huge part in Soujirou's game it was the main reason he lost, infact Kenshin questioned whether or not Soujiro could even use Shun Ten Satsu.http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/05/Yeah, but Kenshin's response and straightforwardness and Soujirou's desire to test their ideals seemed to calm Soujirou back down for their final stroke, as shown here: http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/09/

Good point about the "almost equal" part, though it still kinda hurts my head how manga and comics seem to think that swords/fists of roughly equal weight can impart superior power in their slashes/punches without superior speed.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 08:23 PM

And he wasn't holding back on killing Kenshin. He was surprised that he didn't kill the first time he tagged him.
That's because he was underestimating Kenshin, partly due to his philosophy, partly due to his previous showing before training with Hiko, and holding back on his speed.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 08:41 PM

Shun Ten Satsu increase his sword speed.
For his sword yes but not his body, all I'm saying is that ARNH increases Kenshin's speed to beyond godspeed levels for one step...... one. For Soujirou all his steps are like that by default with Shukuchi, so why even bother with the Shun Ten Satsu in the first place. That's why I say Shukuchi is better than Shun Ten Satsu overall.

To be fair, Soujirou himself explained that the only reason he wasn't using Shukichi at the start of his fight against Kenshin was because Kenshin's no-killing philosophy offended him to the point of wanting to stomp him with his weakest set.

Enishi... is not going to activate that.

Also, Shuntensatsu was said to be equal in speed to Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki, and they're both the fastest single slash that either the Shukichi or Godspeed are capable of, as they're full out charges that end with a full out battoujutsu. EDIT: They're equal cause Kenshin's battoujutsu was faster than Soujirou's, but Soujirou's charge was faster than Kenshin's.
Exactly, that's why Soujirou drives me nuts Kenshin is faster for the draw and Soujirou is faster in overall pure speed http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/134/12/ so knowing that why would you go in battoujutsu with the freaking Battousai especally when he cracked your sword earlier with his now superior battoujutsu, he should have just stayed in Shukuchi and forsaken Battoujustu, he would have won because Kenshin would have a sword in his back.

And it wasn't really a bad idea as much as it was unnecessarily risky; it was more of an ideological thing for Soujirou, and the last time they did it, Kenshin ended up with his sword chopped in half and Soujirou still able to fight with a sword that was of lesser quality than the one he had for that fight. Of course, that was before Kenshin got his own Shishio class sword, a new succession technique, and learned to control his full power, but OTOH, Kenshin was holding back in order to avoid killing and his sword's shape and construction slows down the speed of his strike. All in all, from what Soujirou knew about Kenshin at that time, he had a pretty good chance of winning.
Yes, last time he was better but this time Kenshin cracked his sword so that isn't really an excuse. It's just PIS like Kenshin oh so conveniently have a sound move to mess up Enishi's NOI. It's very simple kid. Use. Full. Speed.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 08:49 PM

I think it was more CIS than PIS: This time, Soujirou had a stronger sword and Kenshin was still using a reverse blade which blunts the power of his technique by a large margin, and Soujirou was determined to find out whether Shishio's ideals or Kenshin's was the stronger by trying to destroy Kenshin at the move he's strongest at (just like he was decimating Kenshin in terms of running speed).

Besides, now that he was no longer unemotional, Kenshin didn't seem to have any difficulty blocking and dodging attacks from one step shy of the Shukichi. As Shukichi is a movement speed and not a reflex speed, Kenshin might still be able to predict and block his strikes at will by that point, which would make the fight into a battle of stamina, which the guy who's running full out all over the place would probably lose.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 08:56 PM

Good point about the "almost equal" part, though it still kinda hurts my head how manga and comics seem to think that swords/fists of roughly equal weight can impart superior power in their slashes/punches without superior speed.

Yup, and he was still faster so really Soujirou losing his sheath before the match would have been the best thing that could have happened to him.

It's a good match though, I feel that Soujiro using his Shukuchi form the jump and nothing else is enough to get him the win against Enishi in the 10/10 because he wouldn't have time to activate the Nervers of Insanity.

If you give him time to activate the NOI then I would give him 6/10 in Soujiro's favor.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 09:12 PM

Besides, now that he was no longer unemotional, Kenshin didn't seem to have any difficulty blocking and dodging attacks from one step shy of the Shukichi. As Shukichi is a movement speed and not a reflex speed, Kenshin might still be able to predict and block his strikes at will by that point, which would make the fight into a battle of stamina, which the guy who's running full out all over the place would probably lose.
Kenshin says that it's not just his feet(running) but the overall way he carries himself(reflexes).http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/13/

Ya know, I think it was just the author overplaying the precog because if Kenshin can treat someone who is faster than him like that, actually blocking the sword of somebody faster that him with ease. How is it that guy's like Saito and Aoshi can even touch him when he is faster that them. Honestly they should be a joke to him. Which brings me back to why I think Soujiro's emotions were slowing him down. It's stated in the anime but not the manga so I can't prove it but man, it's the only way it makes sense ya know.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 09:25 PM

Kenshin says that it's not just his feet(running) but the overall way he carries himself(reflexes).http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/129/13/However, he never seems to increase his sword speed beyond this point, except when he used Shuntensatsu, but his battoujutsu --the fastest possible strike for a swordsman -- is slower than Kenshin's.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Soujirou was waiting for Kenshin to attack in order to do that move, and Kenshin was still fast enough to avoid more than superficial, albeit bloody, damage. http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/130/05/

Ya know, I think it was just the author overplaying the precog because if Kenshin can treat someone who is faster than him like that, actually blocking the sword of somebody faster that him with ease. How is it that guy's like Saito and Aoshi can even touch him when he is faster that them. Honestly they should be a joke to him. Which brings me back to why I think Soujiro's emotions were slowing him down. It's stated in the anime but not the manga so I can't prove it but man, it's the only way it makes sense ya know.Because Saitou and Aoshi seem to have much better swordsmanship and a greater variety of techniques/skills than Soujirou, who relies entirely on running up to someone and slashing at them. Granted, Sou's speed is so great that that's basically all he needs (like Saitou with his Gotatsu), but Aoshi's kenpou and dual kodachi allow him to attack while Kenshin's sword is occupied blocking one attack, and Saitou's Gotatsu allows for point-blank kill-strikes about as powerful as the Kuzuryusen once Kenshin comes within sword range.

Besides, in most of their fights, they tend to take a ton of hits from Kenshin which they only survive because of his reverse blade, while they can't really manage to land a kill shot on him with their edged ones. Heck, in the last Aoshi/Kenshin duel, it took awhile before Aoshi even forced Kenshin to actually fight back.

FalconX2000

01-01-2010, 09:35 PM

However, he never seems to increase his sword speed beyond this point, except when he used Shuntensatsu, but his battoujutsu --the fastest possible strike for a swordsman -- is slower than Kenshin's.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Soujirou was waiting for Kenshin to attack in order to do that move, and Kenshin was still fast enough to avoid more than superficial, albeit bloody, damage. http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/130/05/Because Saitou and Aoshi seem to have much better swordsmanship and a greater variety of techniques/skills than Soujirou, who relies entirely on running up to someone and slashing at them. Granted, Sou's speed is so great that that's basically all he needs (like Saitou with his Gotatsu), but Aoshi's kenpou and dual kodachi allow him to attack while Kenshin's sword is occupied blocking one attack, and Saitou's Gotatsu allows for point-blank kill-strikes about as powerful as the Kuzuryusen once Kenshin comes within sword range.

Besides, in most of their fights, they tend to take a ton of hits from Kenshin which they only survive because of his reverse blade, while they can't really manage to land a kill shot on him with their edged ones. Heck, in the last Aoshi/Kenshin duel, it took awhile before Aoshi even forced Kenshin to actually fight back.

While I agree with the general gist of your argument, I would point out that 'running up them and slashing at them' is an oversimplification. Soujirou beat Kenshin in a battou vs battou technique fight.

The Drunkard Kid

01-01-2010, 09:40 PM

While I agree with the general gist of your argument, I would point out that 'running up them and slashing at them' is an oversimplification. Soujirou beat Kenshin in a battou vs battou technique fight.True, I guess I did oversimplify it. I meant more that he didn't have the tactical genius of Saitou or Aoshi and instead relied mostly on his massive speed and being almost impossible to predict to get into his opponent's guard or dead angles. Aoshi vs. Kenshin, for example, would be a guy with one sword vs. a guy who's almost as fast and skilled, but with two swords at a length he's unused to fighting, as well as an entire fighting system that he normally never faces (kenpou), which makes him trickier to fight, even though Soujirou did much better against Kenshin than Saitou or Aoshi ever did.

However, I think the battou vs. battou fight had a lot to do with the strength of their relative blades as well.

FalconX2000

01-01-2010, 10:05 PM

True, I guess I did oversimplify it. I meant more that he didn't have the tactical genius of Saitou or Aoshi and instead relied mostly on his massive speed and being almost impossible to predict to get into his opponent's guard or dead angles. Aoshi vs. Kenshin, for example, would be a guy with one sword vs. a guy who's almost as fast and skilled, but with two swords at a length he's unused to fighting, as well as an entire fighting system that he normally never faces (kenpou), which makes him trickier to fight, even though Soujirou did much better against Kenshin than Saitou or Aoshi ever did.

However, I think the battou vs. battou fight had a lot to do with the strength of their relative blades as well.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. Soujirou's sword was of higher quality and that doubtless was a factor in that fight.

Siriel

01-01-2010, 10:08 PM

Both of them acknowledged that it was a stalemate. (Kenshin's sword was broken in two, Soujiro's was fractured.)

Then again, Kenshin later noted that while they said that, the winner was obvious from looking at the swords. Implying that Soujiro had indeed won in his opinion.

Also, Kenshin's original blade was made by the same blacksmith as his second(even if the second was the masterpiece), so it's not like it was made by Random Joe or something.

Holy Spirit

01-01-2010, 10:09 PM

However, he never seems to increase his sword speed beyond this point, except when he used Shuntensatsu, but his battoujutsu --the fastest possible strike for a swordsman -- is slower than Kenshin's.That goes against the whole spirit of Kenshin's comment though, Why wouldn't his sword speed increase with everything else, it's a part of his speed Kenshin notes that himself, that's why he made the distinction of why it wasn't just running speed. It's all just a powered down version of Shukuchi.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Soujirou was waiting for Kenshin to attack in order to do that move, and Kenshin was still fast enough to avoid more than superficial, albeit bloody, damage. http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/130/05/I looked it over and you are right about Soujiro waiting for Kenshin to attack with the "all along" bit but I don't see Kenshin avoiding anything he got slashed straight up and Soujiro's swing was just to weak to finish the job.

Because Saitou and Aoshi seem to have much better swordsmanship and a greater variety of techniques/skills than Soujirou, who relies entirely on running up to someone and slashing at them. Granted, Sou's speed is so great that that's basically all he needs (like Saitou with his Gotatsu), but Aoshi's kenpou and dual kodachi allow him to attack while Kenshin's sword is occupied blocking one attack, and Saitou's Gotatsu allows for point-blank kill-strikes about as powerful as the Kuzuryusen once Kenshin comes within sword range.It doesn't matter if you have a billion techniques or better swordsmanship it still doesn't explain how you can casualy counter somebody faster then you to the point of blitzing, then you still somehow struggle against people slower than you. You talk about Aoshi's kenpo and dual style occupying Kenshin's sword but how would that happen in the first place when Kenshin knows where Aoshi's blade is going before it gets there and is faster than him to boot. Saitou is in an even worse situation because you don't even need precog to know what he is going to do and Kenshin still gets hit by him and even if it's point blank Kenshin can still read his emotions. Honestly, the author just overplayed the precog to give Kenshin a chance, I mean if you really look at that fight Kenshin went form "I can't tell where he is" to casualy blocking him and the only change was precog. Soujiro blitzed him at two steps short and the faster he went the worse he was doing because of his emotions which Kenshin could read. Aoishi and Saitou shouldn't even touch him.

Besides, in most of their fights, they tend to take a ton of hits from Kenshin which they only survive because of his reverse blade, while they can't really manage to land a kill shot on him with their edged ones. Heck, in the last Aoshi/Kenshin duel, it took awhile before Aoshi even forced Kenshin to actually fight back.
Yeah, but that still doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be touching him at all in the first place.

Miburohunter929

01-01-2010, 11:47 PM

Regarding how Kenshin can struggle with faster opponents, they have pretty quick reaction time, and are not exactly slow.

Saito reacted to a blitz attack from Kenshin (Not fully transformed, but Kenshin was faster then before) and speedblitzed Kenshin with a barrage of punches after disarming a him with a belt that no one in the room, Kenshin included, saw coming.

Before that, he was dealing with Kyoto Kenshin like it was nothing, and didn't get tagged until Kenshin basically fliped around, and even then, he dropped his guard, cause he underestimated Himura.

Along with things like tossing a Gatotsu so fast all Usui could do was be like "Wha?" and die despite pre-cog, along with sniping Shishio from atleast 30 feet away, with enough power to make trenches, dodging Mumyous bombs, etc.

Aoshi, even if we ignore the Tokyo fight, was easily keeping up with Kenshin in Kyoto.

Kenshin thought he could beat him without drawing his sword, and by tossing bookcases at him, which almost got him killed, and Aoshi himself wasn't particuarly going all out, as much as making Kenshin draw his sword.

He also claimed during the Tokyo arc he could fend off bullets from a riffle when pressed, but it's not shown, so take it how you will. His..waterfall movement thing with the name I forget, also dosn't imply him being slow.

When Kenshin actually moved to attack, he was counted for the majority of the fight, until he got serious (He did have reservations about fighting Aoshi) but Aoshi himself wasn't going all out, due to wanting Kenshin to flip his blade, and not beliving in his strength.

Aoshi's certainly never been completely overwhelmed, by anything bar the Ougi.

They're slower, but they have more then adaquate reaction time and skill.

Esentially, the same way Kenshin surived against Soujiro, but to a much lesser extent. (Kenshin can read them, and he's not faster then them in every single way by the same margin Soujiro is)

Actually, IIRC, the four monks Aoshi killed for dicking on his buds graves used Soujiros tech, or were really really fast when together, or some wierdness, and he killed the fuck out of them. (I'll double check later)

I'm not saying he's slower, I'm saying they're fast enough to where he's not gonna be avoiding everything with Impunity.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 12:00 AM

Actually, IIRC, the four monks Aoshi killed for dicking on his buds graves used Soujiros tech, or were really really fast when together, or some wierdness, and he killed the fuck out of them. (I'll double check later)

Nah, they didn't use Soujiro's Shukuchi. They were just supposed to be really strong together.

'Course, Soujiro basically said that they were weaklings and that Aoshi was pretty mean to just kill them like that. But then again he said that about virtually everyone who lost in that arc. (To be fair, they were pretty much all weaklings compared to him, I suppose)

Miburohunter929

01-02-2010, 12:08 AM

Nah, they didn't use Soujiro's Shukuchi. They were just supposed to be really strong together.

'Course, Soujiro basically said that they were weaklings and that Aoshi was pretty mean to just kill them like that. But then again he said that about virtually everyone who lost in that arc. (To be fair, they were pretty much all weaklings compared to him, I suppose)

Which reminds me, another reason they can keep up with Kenshin, is because they Ki-read, but to a lesser extent, and aren't as reliant.

Shishio himself noted that the reason Saito didn't attack him the first time they met, is because he couldn't tell what Soujiro would do.

Kenshin did something somewhat similar with his ki to try and force a reaction out of Soujiro, and Saito offhandly noted he's wasting his time, Saito himself having made a similar attempt.

Before that, Shishio explained something about Ki, and how reading it works in the Kenshin verse, and helps deal with attacks.

So, Kenshins by far the best at it, but he's not the only one who does it.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 12:13 AM

Kenshin did something somewhat similar with his ki to try and force a reaction out of Soujiro, and Saito offhandly noted he's wasting his time, Saito himself having made a similar attempt.

What Kenshin did was some sort of wave, which pretty much tackled Misao into the wall.

I remember that scene because it was freaking hilarious, with Soujiro having an interrogation mark above his head to show that he had no idea what Kenshin was doing.

Saitou Hajime

01-02-2010, 12:43 AM

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 08:16 AM

Hiko pretty much said while kicking Kenshin's ass during his retraining that the latter limits himself by placing too much emphasis on reading people, allowing cunning fighters to get the drop on him.

So if his precog can be fooled by something as subtle as cunning how is it then that he can go form being blitzed to casualy dealing with soujiro. It's still being over played.

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 08:20 AM

Which reminds me, another reason they can keep up with Kenshin, is because they Ki-read, but to a lesser extent, and aren't as reliant.

Shishio himself noted that the reason Saito didn't attack him the first time they met, is because he couldn't tell what Soujiro would do.

Kenshin did something somewhat similar with his ki to try and force a reaction out of Soujiro, and Saito offhandly noted he's wasting his time, Saito himself having made a similar attempt.

Before that, Shishio explained something about Ki, and how reading it works in the Kenshin verse, and helps deal with attacks.

So, Kenshins by far the best at it, but he's not the only one who does it.
But there Ki reading only gives then a general idea of when the attack will happen it's a standard of all master swordmen what makes Kenshin special is that not only does he know when they will attack but also how they will attack as shown in his fight with Jinei. That's why it was such an issue with Soujirou knowing when he will attack is easy its knowing where he is coming that you have to figure out before you get blitzed and that's why if he can treat him casualy sombody like Aoshi and Saitou shouldn't be able to touch him. And he is still faster so my point still stands.

FalconX2000

01-02-2010, 08:56 AM

So if his precog can be fooled by something as subtle as cunning how is it then that he can go form being blitzed to casualy dealing with soujiro. It's still being over played.

Soujirou became entirely too predictable after he lost his cool. Kenshin didn't have to keep up with Soujirou's raw speed so much after that because he'd already have known how his opponent was going to strike before his opponent himself started moving.

Saito and Aoshi, on the other hand, were relatively calm, composed and of sound mind. Feints, counter-reading, they had a wealth of mental options to aid them that a conflicted speedster suffering a mental breakdown just wouldn't be able to. In Soujirou's state after Kenshin mind-fucked him Saito and Aoshi could both have beaten him too, ultimate technique notwithstanding.

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 10:02 AM

Soujirou became entirely too predictable after he lost his cool. Kenshin didn't have to keep up with Soujirou's raw speed so much after that because he'd already have known how his opponent was going to strike before his opponent himself started moving.
Soujirou's style was no differently before or after his breakdown, he was fighting the same way bouncing around to hit Kenshin. At one step short of Shukuchi Kenshin couldn't even see him, yet once his precog started it somehow allowed him to block him with ease, if it is that powerful all the time then somebody like Saito and Aoshi that Kenshin can easily react to shouldn't even touch him.

Saito and Aoshi, on the other hand, were relatively calm, composed and of sound mind. Feints, counter-reading, they had a wealth of mental options to aid them that a conflicted speedster suffering a mental breakdown just wouldn't be able to. In Soujirou's state after Kenshin mind-fucked him Saito and Aoshi could both have beaten him too, ultimate technique notwithstanding.
Saito and Aoshi are calm, composed and of sound mind and Kenshin can still read them like a book just like anybody else beacuse they still have emotions, what made Soujirou special was that he literally felt nothing inside so when his emotional seal broke it didn't make him worse than normal swordsmen, it made him the same as everybody else in the series that Kenshin fights. Basicly it only served to make the fight normal for Kenshin but that still doesn't undo the speed advantage that Soujirou was enjoying which is why Kenshin suddenly finding the mach easy inspite of the fact that Soujiro was going faster was stupid. Especally when Kenshin is the one that is used to being the fastest fighter on the field.

And all there counter reading, feints, and "wealth of mental options" are all inferor to Kenshin's precog which is specificly why Kenshin's Hiten Mitsurugi is so special. Soujiro was giving kenshin feints that is the whole point of bouncing around the room instead of going in a straight line, so you can confuse you opponent and make him think you are attacking in a place you are not. And he was fighting at speeds that Kenshin coundn't even react to and yet, when he went faster Kenshin treated him like a joke all because of precog. But it still somehow makes sense that Kenshin gets hit by people slower than him even though he has precog that let's him react to people faster than he can see or react. You can't have it both ways either the precog was over played against Soujirou or all Kenshin's fights against people slower than him are PIS, and considering that the Soujirou fight was just one fight I believe it just makes more sense to say it was overplayed to give Kenshin a chance.

Hazard

01-02-2010, 10:16 AM

FalconX2000

01-02-2010, 10:41 AM

Soujirou's style was no differently before or after his breakdown, he was fighting the same way bouncing around to hit Kenshin. At one step short of Shukuchi Kenshin couldn't even see him, yet once his precog started it somehow allowed him to block him with ease, if it is that powerful all the time then somebody like Saito and Aoshi that Kenshin can easily react to shouldn't even touch him.

Saito and Aoshi are calm, composed and of sound mind and Kenshin can still read them like a book just like anybody else beacuse they still have emotions, what made Soujirou special was that he literally felt nothing inside so when his emotional seal broke it didn't make him worse than normal swordsmen, it made him the same as everybody else in the series that Kenshin fights. Basicly it only served to make the fight normal for Kenshin but that still doesn't undo the speed advantage that Soujirou was enjoying which is why Kenshin suddenly finding the mach easy inspite of the fact that Soujiro was going faster was stupid. Especally when Kenshin is the one that is used to being the fastest fighter on the field.

And all there counter reading, feints, and "wealth of mental options" are all inferor to Kenshin's precog which is specificly why Kenshin's Hiten Mitsurugi is so special. Soujiro was giving kenshin feints that is the whole point of bouncing around the room instead of going in a straight line, so you can confuse you opponent and make him think you are attacking in a place you are not. And he was fighting at speeds that Kenshin coundn't even react to and yet, when he went faster Kenshin treated him like a joke all because of precog. But it still somehow makes sense that Kenshin gets hit by people slower than him even though he has precog that let's him react to people faster than he can see or react. You can't have it both ways either the precog was over played against Soujirou or all Kenshin's fights against people slower than him are PIS, and considering that the Soujirou fight was just one fight I believe it just makes more sense to say it was overplayed to give Kenshin a chance.

Actually yes, yes it did make Soujirou worse than normal swordsmen when he lost his cool. This isn't simply losing a poker face, this is Soujirou not thinking straight, not thinking clearly, with his heart in turmoil. There's nothing inconsistent about Kenshin's reading ability.

Saitou and Aoshi had less speed but were of sound mind. Kenshin could more or less read them, but did get hit.

Calm Soujirou had insane speed, was of generally sound mind and was totally unreadable. Kenshin got blitzed.

Mindfucked Soujirou had insane speed, was fighting in an extremely emotional state that not only rendered him vulnerable to ki reading but made every move he was going to make obvious. Kenshin easily got the better of him because he knew what Soujirou was going to do without even needing to see him moving. Any sufficiently skilled martial artist without any ki reading capability at all would still have been able to predict Soujirou's moves.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 10:47 AM

Any sufficiently skilled martial artist without any ki reading capability at all would still have been able to predict Soujirou's moves.

Well, anyone able to see the guy, anyway.

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 10:51 AM

Saito and Aoshi can keep their heads cool when they fight.
I know I agreed with that.

Soujirou on the other hand has no offensive aura at all.
Yup.

The emotional state of the fighters matters for Kenshin's reading. By the end of the fight Soujou was an emotional mess. I am surprised he didn't completely break down crying. Kenshin's entire existence was against everything Soujirou believed and that seriously messed him up.
Yup.

You can't really compare it to fighting guys that have experience handling their emotions.
See, this is where it falls apart, you can compare them, it's just that when you do your realize how overplayed the precog was against him compared to everybody else in the series. He went form struggling with speed, not technique, but speed and literaly couldn't even see or react to his opponent. Not even the most basic slash, and then he doesn't even struggling with Soujirou because of emotion alone, and it was the only thing that changed in that fight and there is just no getting around it.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 10:54 AM

Or, if you prefer to go by logic, Soujiro due to his emotions became a total moron and decided to attack from above.

Which is great and all, but totally negates his speed advantage as he can't move in mid-air, and the surprise was negated by Kenshin's pre-cog.

Alexander the immortal

01-02-2010, 11:03 AM

this is off topic but i don't want to read spoilers so i am asking this here. I saw a few more episodes after the Shishio ark but it's bad filler , never before did the Kenshin anime been so ... uninteresting . I actually loved everything that came before it. Even the so called filler in reality did not feel exactly filler. In many ways it was not filler , it all had to do with the main story , the inner conflict in Kenshin.

But now it does. Their is no danger for any of the characters. No iner conflict. No character or story progression. Nothing.

Any reason to keep watching ? I am just before the Kaoru estatic episode. (number 66)

i kind of spoiled myself and read about this Enishi guy (in this thread). Does he appear in the anime ?

Siriel

01-02-2010, 11:06 AM

this is off topic but i don't want to read spoilers so i am asking this here. I saw a few more episodes after the Shishio ark but it's bad filler , never before did the Kenshin anime been so ... uninteresting . I actually loved everything that came before it. Even the so called filler in reality did not feel exactly filler. In many ways it was not filler , it all had to do with the main story , the inner conflict in Kenshin.

But now it does. Their is no danger for any of the characters. No iner conflict. No character or story progression. Nothing.

Any reason to keep watching ? I am just before the Kaoru estatic episode. (number 66)

Post-Shishio? Not really. The anime's last season is crap.

I suggest you start reading the manga at this point, to read the Jinshuu arc. I can give you a link.

FalconX2000

01-02-2010, 11:07 AM

this is off topic but i don't want to read spoilers so i am asking this here. I saw a few more episodes after the Shishio ark but it's bad filler , never before did the Kenshin anime been so ... uninteresting . I actually loved everything that came before it. Even the so called filler in reality did not feel exactly filler. In many ways it was not filler , it all had to do with the main story , the inner conflict in Kenshin.

But now it does. Their is no danger for any of the characters. No iner conflict. No character or story progression. Nothing.

Any reason to keep watching ? I am just before the Kaoru estatic episode. (number 66)

Next time ask in the Black Hole thread.

The Christian arc is not bad, but besides that skip the rest.

Alexander the immortal

01-02-2010, 11:16 AM

Thanks for the advice. a last comment , which episodes are the Christian ark ?

Anyway about on topic , i have to agree with Holy Spirit , it seems to me that indeed Soujiro's Shukuchi was his strong suit and he should have used it in that fight.

Regarding Soujiro vs anyone else i guess we must judge how that someone else would do against his Shukushi. I think Soujiro would not make the same mistakes he made when fighting against Kenshin if he fights someone else and that would be his technique that he would use in that fight.

As for how he would do , i have no idea as i don't know this Enishi. Knowing what i know of Soujiro , IMO it's all about whether Enishi can best Soujiro's Shukushi.

Yun Lao

01-02-2010, 11:17 AM

I have to admit, they contrast each other nicely; Soujirou by his lack of emotions while Enishi is powered by pure emotion.

The Drunkard Kid

01-02-2010, 11:22 AM

Re: Soujirou's ariel attack, I was assuming he was jumping off the ceiling, like every other time he jumped at all (kinda inevitable, as his shukuchi was attributed to his ridiculous leg strength, which was why he was tearing up the tatami wherever he ran; so if he's jumping at super-godspeed levels indoors, he'd better be planning on bouncing off the ceiling unless he's planning on going through it).

And as for why I don't think that his sword-speed is equal to his Shukuchi speed:

A) As I said earlier, we never see him ever managing to swing his blade faster than Kenshin does, and his fastest sword swing was flat out said to be slower than Kenshin's fastest;

B) Sou's Shukuchi is based on his leg strength; if his sword speed was comparable, it would be based on his arm strength so shallowly cutting Kenshin would be unlikely unless Kenshin was actually able to react and jump out of the way of Sou's slash (especially since even light slashes to the back would seriously mess up your ability to swing a sword, even bandaged up, though RK is somewhat on and off with how it treats shallow wounds to vital muscle groups);

D) and most importantly, Soujirou's "X-steps short of the Shukuchi" were based on him holding back on how fast he was moving of his own free will, not that it was some sort of technique that had to be activated in order to boost his stats (like the NoI), or some sort of mental block (like Tokyo Kenshin's Battousai mode), so there would be no real way for him to actively slow down how fast he perceives or reacts to things.

There's no indication that he ever got any faster at swinging until he used a battoujutsu, but that's the point of battoujutsu in the first place. It's the same way that Kenshin's sword speed is independent of his ability to use Godspeed.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 11:26 AM

A) As I said earlier, we never see him ever managing to swing his blade faster than Kenshin does, and his fastest sword swing was flat out said to be slower than Kenshin's fastest;

Shun Ten Satsu was still a bit faster, actually. It's just that Kenshin being better at Battoujutsu and using his Ouji almost negated the speed gap and when it came down to both sword clashing, the strongest attack won.

'Course, I'm not sure how something moving slower and having roughly the same shape can hit harder, but I suppose that's fiction for you.

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 11:28 AM

Actually yes, yes it did make Soujirou worse than normal swordsmen when he lost his cool. This isn't simply losing a poker face, this is Soujirou not thinking straight, not thinking clearly, with his heart in turmoil. There's nothing inconsistent about Kenshin's reading ability.
Your right it's not simply losing a poker face its about his emotions which Kenshin could now read like a book. If Soujirou was like Enishi and relies on countering technique for technique then I would agree with you in a heart beat. But Soujirou isn't like Enishi is isn't trying to stop and counter anything he is trying to blitz both for offence and defence speed is everything to him. He doesn't need to think about anything he has no moves to think about or counter with, he just runs at you and hits you with a sword can you see or react to it is all that matters and Kenshin couldn't. Which when you consider all the people that are slower than him that can hit him anyway shows massive inconsistancey.

Saitou and Aoshi had less speed but were of sound mind. Kenshin could more or less read them, but did get hit.
"More or less" he reads them just fine and they are slower than he is. Tell me something if Kenshin's precog wasn't overplayed against Soujirou then why couldn't he read Enishi's NOI like a book when Enishi's hatred for him was at it's hightest?

Enishi was blilzing Kenshin left and right just like Soujirow was with the nerves and his emotions were just as out of control if not more so than Soujiro's to the point that he ignored defence all together just because he hated him so much. So since Kenshin doesn't even have to worry about him blocking at all wouldn't it be even easier to react to Enishi's wild and out of control strikes?

Calm Soujirou had insane speed, was of generally sound mind and was totally unreadable. Kenshin got blitzed.

Mindfucked Soujirou had insane speed, was fighting in an extremely emotional state that not only rendered him vulnerable to ki reading but made every move he was going to make obvious. Kenshin easily got the better of him because he knew what Soujirou was going to do without even needing to see him moving. Any sufficiently skilled martial artist without any ki reading capability at all would still have been able to predict Soujirou's moves.
The only reason Kenshin could sense Soujiro was because of his emotions how could somebody without Ki reading hit something they cant see or react to?

Siriel

01-02-2010, 11:32 AM

"More or less" he reads them just fine and they are slower than he is. Tell me something if Kenshin's precog wasn't overplayed against Soujirou then why couldn't he read Enishi's NOI like a book when Enishi's hatred for him was at it's hightest?
He could read him just fine. It's just that by that point, Enishi's body surpassed what was considered the absolute maximum that he should be able to reach, so all the reading in the world couldn't compensate for the fact that Kenshin simply reacted with less speed. Just like Kenshin couldn't match Soujiro's running speed even post emotional breakdown.

That, and the fact that Enishi was strong enough to dig trenches with his hits probably had something to do with it.

The only reason Kenshin could sense Soujiro was because of his emotions how could somebody without Ki reading hit something they cant see or react to?
Because Soujiro was basically telegraphing his strikes like crazy.

Note that he never said anything about blocking the hit, just that they could read it if they saw it.

The Drunkard Kid

01-02-2010, 11:32 AM

Shun Ten Satsu was still a bit faster, actually. It's just that Kenshin being better at Battoujutsu and using his Ouji almost negated the speed gap and when it came down to both sword clashing, the strongest attack won.

'Course, I'm not sure how something moving slower and having roughly the same shape can hit harder, but I suppose that's fiction for you.Shuntensatsu was overall faster, but that was based on his charge speed offsetting the difference. His actual sword speed was slower, I'd think, otherwise there was no way that Kenshin could somehow become almost as fast just by running forward with his less-than-2-steps-below-Shukuchi speed. Not to mention that Kenshin's sword is said to actually slow down his swings due to its non-aerodynamic shape, so his actual reflex speed is probably a little faster than his swings indicate.

The Drunkard Kid

01-02-2010, 11:34 AM

Siriel

01-02-2010, 11:34 AM

Not to mention that Kenshin's sword is said to actually slow down his swings due to its non-aerodynamic shape, so his actual reflex speed is probably a little faster than his swings indicate.

Ah! That was only said of the first one!

For all we know, the second one lacked that flaw.

The Drunkard Kid

01-02-2010, 11:38 AM

Ah! That was only said of the first one!

For all we know, the second one lacked that flaw.
I doubt it; he's still swinging a blunted edge instead of a sharpened one, so it would have more air-resistance than a normal blade would in his hands. Actually, that's one of the reasons Hiko said he survived the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki training. EDIT: Actually, he says its because the blade is set to be a little loose, in order to absorb some of the shock of the swing; still, there's no indication that his new sakabatou is suddenly more aerodynamic than the old one, just more durable.

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 11:39 AM

Siriel

01-02-2010, 11:40 AM

Kenshin himself went out of his way to make the specific distinction, saying it wasn't just his legs but the way he "carries himself" Why would he go out of his way in the middle of a death match to say that if it wasn't true.

The way you carry yourself (as in, distributing your weight and moving your body) doesn't translate into "swing a sword really fast".

Holy Spirit

01-02-2010, 11:54 AM

In NoI Enishi's case, he flat out said that Kenshin *was* reading his movements, but that it didn't matter because Enishi's reflex speed was heightened so much that he was able to *react to Kenshin's reaction* and pretty much beat the tar out of him with his bare hands. Precog/Move Reading is useless if the other person's reaction speed is fast enough to change directions after you already started reacting to their original intention.

Here's the page: http://www.*************/Rurouni_Kenshin/247/10/

See, now that actually makes a lot of sense thank you!:smile:

Kenshin not being able to react to Soujiro and then treating him with ease however does not I understand that Kenshin has precog but Soujiro was literaly runing circles around him he isn't blind as soon as Kenshin starts to block run behind him and stab him. As your link shows Kenshin's reflexes don't change so as soon as he starts to defend run around him. It's still some massive incosistancy in that Soujiro fight but I see we can't agree on that and I am starting to talk in circles....... and getting a little bored so peace! :cool:

Just for the record I think Soujiro and Enishi is a good fight, but I give Soujiro the majority.

The Drunkard Kid

01-02-2010, 12:00 PM

See, now that actually makes a lot of sense thank you!:smile:

Kenshin not being able to react to Soujiro and then treating him with ease however does not I understand that Kenshin has precog but Soujiro was literaly runing circles around him he isn't blind as soon as Kenshin starts to block run behind him and stab him. As your link shows Kenshin's reflexes don't change so as soon as he starts to defend run around him. It's still some massive incosistancy in that Soujiro fight but I see we can't agree on that and I am starting to talk in circles....... and getting a little bored so peace! :cool:

Just for the record I think Soujiro and Enishi is a good fight, but I give Soujiro the majority.Well, like I said, Soujirou's speed seems to be primarily in his legs, so while he could run circles around Kenshin, once he swings at him, Kenshin can react to that (I think it was said that his emotions quivered slightly just before each swing, though I'll have to look that up). Once Kenshin could read his emotions, it became a lot easier to figure out where and when he was going to attack from. Even Sou never came close to blitzing him in hand to hand, while NoI Enishi was literally beating Kenshin at will until Ken pulled out the Ryumeisen out of nowhere.

I mean, seriously, why would he even have a move that required the opponent to have beyond peak human hearing to do anything but distract them for a second? I guess it could be used to drive away/disorient guard dogs or wild animals, but a Hiten Mitsurugi Ryuu user wouldn't exactly find it difficult to dodge/kill a pack of dogs before they could get a bark out.

Hitokiri

01-02-2010, 07:34 PM

The Drunkard Kid

01-02-2010, 07:37 PM

I chalk it up to Watsuki needing a way to beat Enishi. Plus Enishi totally screwed himself over when he revealed that his senses were heightened as well.

And I think Enishi takes the match but by a slim margin, maybe 6/10.

He could have always gone the Naruto route, if Kenshin had been eating enough beans beforehand.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 07:47 PM

I chalk it up to Watsuki needing a way to beat Enishi. Plus Enishi totally screwed himself over when he revealed that his senses were heightened as well.

And I think Enishi takes the match but by a slim margin, maybe 6/10.

I might agree normally, but this isn't in the arena, meaning they're in-character.

Enishi doesn't open his fights with the NoI, while Soujiro doesn't have a reason to hold back.

Miburohunter929

01-02-2010, 07:57 PM

My memorys fuzzy on Enishi's last fight but...

I'm not really surprised about a fighting style that (Maybe it was just in the anime) Kenshin described as super-sonic, having a technique that makes a sonic boom/super high pitched noise or whatever the hell got Enishi, anymore then I was that he could deflect Kunais by drawing his sword, or cut things in such a way the cells weren't damaged and create giant vaccums.

I don't really even consider it an asspull, since it'd only be useful for like...Distracting dogs, or something, 90% of the time.

The 'why hasn't Ken used it before' question answers itself, since Kenshin only fights humans, and he's not had to fight/scare dogs/animals with the required senses away.

Saitou Hajime

01-02-2010, 09:59 PM

Enishi doesn't open his fights with the NoI, while Soujiro doesn't have a reason to hold back.

Soujirou doesn't have a reason to open up with his best either. I see it going just like his fights with Kenshin, starting out with his regular stuff, then bringing out the Shukuchi in progressive intervals as the fight deems necessary.

Siriel

01-02-2010, 10:03 PM

Soujirou doesn't have a reason to open up with his best either. I see it going just like his fights with Kenshin, starting out with his regular stuff, then bringing out the Shukuchi in progressive intervals as the fight deems necessary.

Why?

He specifically stated that he was holding back because he simply couldn't believe that someone who doesn't kill would be strong enough to force him to go all out. (Not "wouldn't believe", mind you. It was simply impossible for him to consider that a possibility.)

Per the OP, he already knows who Enishi is, and obviously someone who managed to defeat Kenshin isn't someone that he should hold back against.

FalconX2000

01-02-2010, 10:26 PM

Your right it's not simply losing a poker face its about his emotions which Kenshin could now read like a book. If Soujirou was like Enishi and relies on countering technique for technique then I would agree with you in a heart beat. But Soujirou isn't like Enishi is isn't trying to stop and counter anything he is trying to blitz both for offence and defence speed is everything to him. He doesn't need to think about anything he has no moves to think about or counter with, he just runs at you and hits you with a sword can you see or react to it is all that matters and Kenshin couldn't. Which when you consider all the people that are slower than him that can hit him anyway shows massive inconsistancey.

I finished clarifying this point with Siriel just a little while ago. Just because Soujirou doesn't yell out fancy names doesn't mean he doesn't have any sword technique. Soujirou is not the Flash. He has, like any swordsman in the series, plenty of skill to back up his ridiculous speed, as seen when he beat Kenshin in a battou vs battou fight (with the qualification that Kenshin was using an inferior blade).

If all Soujirou does is run fast straight at his opponent and slash (which was what happened after he got mindfucked) while broadcasting his ki for all to see, Aoshi would have taken him apart almost as easily as Kenshin did.

"More or less" he reads them just fine and they are slower than he is. Tell me something if Kenshin's precog wasn't overplayed against Soujirou then why couldn't he read Enishi's NOI like a book when Enishi's hatred for him was at it's hightest?

Enishi was blilzing Kenshin left and right just like Soujirow was with the nerves and his emotions were just as out of control if not more so than Soujiro's to the point that he ignored defence all together just because he hated him so much. So since Kenshin doesn't even have to worry about him blocking at all wouldn't it be even easier to react to Enishi's wild and out of control strikes?

If Kenshin could read Aoshi perfectly he'd never have gotten hit, period, since Kenshin is also appreciably faster than Aoshi. Same with Saito, except Saito also moved so fast when he used Gin Iro Horizon that Kenshin's body couldn't keep up (and Kenshin couldn't anticipate Saito's exact angle and attack unlike mindfucked Soujirou)

Enishi was a berzerker. He was used to fighting well with his emotions blazing and developed his style around it. You know how sometimes people get more formidable when they get angrier, but sometimes they make mistakes and execute obvious attacks that leave them wide open? Enishi trained specifically to utilise the best parts of rage and not suffer its weaknesses.

The only reason Kenshin could sense Soujiro was because of his emotions how could somebody without Ki reading hit something they cant see or react to?

Soujirou's footsteps, the look in his eyes and his posture between attacks, the knowledge that he'd go for the most obvious swing...

Saitou Hajime

01-03-2010, 02:39 AM

Why?

He specifically stated that he was holding back because he simply couldn't believe that someone who doesn't kill would be strong enough to force him to go all out. (Not "wouldn't believe", mind you. It was simply impossible for him to consider that a possibility.)

Per the OP, he already knows who Enishi is, and obviously someone who managed to defeat Kenshin isn't someone that he should hold back against.

But he also said that he was moving at 3 steps short of Shukuchi based from what he gauged from Kenshin's fight with Senkaku. That and starting off with battoujutsu both times suggests that Soujirou fights at a level sufficient to get the job done. That he doesn't know how Enishi fights might make him try to feel him out first.

The Drunkard Kid

01-03-2010, 06:55 AM

But he also said that he was moving at 3 steps short of Shukuchi based from what he gauged from Kenshin's fight with Senkaku. That and starting off with battoujutsu both times suggests that Soujirou fights at a level sufficient to get the job done. That he doesn't know how Enishi fights might make him try to feel him out first.

After reading the OP again, though, Enishi's kinda screwed. Seta seems to be aware that this is a guy who was able to fight the Kenshin that beat him and Shishio evenly enough to be able to steal Kaoru when he wasn't even trying to kill Kenshin, and Enishi only knows that Soujirou was Shishio's right hand man (note, not even Yuki or the shotgun guy knew a thing about Soujirou's actual skill or speed until they saw his battle/got told by Shishio during said battle). AND Soujirou is doing it to help Kenshin and Kaoru, not for honor or pride or ideals.

So, if he's still willing to kill, he'd probably just start off with Shuntensatsu and there's pretty much not a thing that Enishi can do about it, cause he almost certainly has no idea that Soujirou can move that fast.