Is New Avengers pop music?

[Biggbuttmcgruff!!!!]

Let me explain my question.It seems to me that sometimes,people who are enthusiasts about certain arts(movies,music,comics)tend to get to a point where they dislike mainstream forms of that art. Take me for instance.I started gettting into rock music a few years ago,after years of being more into r and b music.I was into a lot of the musi you hear on the radio,and the videos you see on t.v. But,I started listening to more underground/independent music,and I have to say that that is what I listen to the most nowadays.I slowley started to get tired of mainstream rock music.As I got older, I could see the cut and paste nature of it.I continue to be satisfied by indie music and am starting to get into indie films.I find myself having to be convinced of the quality of mainstream music,and listen with a critical ear,and more often that not disapprove.I wonder why mainstream music is so popular,because most of the hooks sound the same,and when I hear someone say how they loved a cut and paste band,I wonder why. (By the way,I dont mean all mainstream music.)
So,lets apply the same idea to comics. Are all the fans of things like new avengers(and many other mainstream books) like the fans of Nickleback?Do people shake their heads at us mainstream comic fans while they enjoy the comic equivalent of Interpol? It feels like that sometimes.Maybe its because comics in and of themselves are a subculture,and fans of indie books are basically a sub-sub-culture,and therefore the analagy doesnt quite fit.What do you think?

[StoneGold]

Space button. Return key. Learn to love them.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I think fans of indie comics are more like fans of classical music.

[StoneGold]

Dang lag double posts

[StoneGold]

I think fans of indie comics are more like fans of classical music.
You mean pretentious a-holes?


Seriously though, all mainstream comics are pop music. Always have been. Always will be. If you think it's ever been meant to be more than lowbrown entertainment, look at the medium. Cheaply bound together paper. You do the math.

[Ed Cunard]

You mean pretentious a-holes?

If the shoe fits...

Hey--Size 9! It does fit!

As to the original post:

Maybe its because comics in and of themselves are a subculture,and fans of indie books are basically a sub-sub-culture,and therefore the analagy doesnt quite fit.

The analogy probably fits, but just in a smaller scale.

[Alex]

You're talking about the indie snob mentality, which you can eventualy get past, and hit a realization.
A good song is a good song, and sometimes, a song on the radio is popular with everyone because it's an incredible well put together song. I don't listen to the Radio much because i find it to be boring, but i still hear good songs.
You can't go into indie music, or indie comics, and turn off of marvel and DC because "the indie stuff is better!"
Because it really isn't. Generaly, a bad indie comic is really, really bad, and a bad cd is really, really bad. The crap to good ratio is actually worse in the indie areas, because theres much more avaible, and therefor, you need to wade through a lot more crap.
One of the fun things is to anayzle your question with the phrases you used, like...
"enjoy the comic equivalent of Interpol"
I read that as "The comic equivalent of a piece of shit band, who aren't even indie anyway since they are signed to EMI, a major record label and have a marketing budget behind them which leads to numerous write ups in mainstream magazines and ads for their cds, who have never shown an ounce of originality and couldn't write a catchy tune if they were held over a pack of tigers, and are rewarded for it by such bastions of integrity as Spin, and other such desperate to be hip but will also be three months behind the trend music rags."
Now, the fact that i saw it differently kinda shows that not everyone is going too agree with whats indie, what isn't, or who cares about what.
Or, to simplfy it, comics is a market that has (and i might be exageratting) 300,000 people who are into it monthly.
Your top selling title sells about 150,000, when you get into indie titles, you are talking about a couple thousand in sales.
Lets assume its 2000, and only 1/4th of those people buy mainstream books. That means you have 1500 people looking down on mainstream fans.
And that really isn;t enough to bother caring about.

[Brandon Hanvey]

Good comics are good comics. Just as good music is good music. It's a matter of personal taste.

[Shellhead]

Marvel's Ultimate line is nothing but cover tunes.

[Alex]

Marvel's Ultimate line is nothing but cover tunes.
And a good cover tune is either entirely different, or better then the original.
...
.....
(then again, with the state of spiderman and avengers at the time the ultimate books came about, it's more like Led Zeppelin covering a Limp Bizkit song, no matter what they did it was bound to be better.)

[Dan Apodaca]

"enjoy the comic equivalent of Interpol"
I read that as "The comic equivalent of a piece of shit band, who aren't even indie anyway since they are signed to EMI, a major record label and have a marketing budget behind them which leads to numerous write ups in mainstream magazines and ads for their cds, who have never shown an ounce of originality and couldn't write a catchy tune if they were held over a pack of tigers, and are rewarded for it by such bastions of integrity as Spin, and other such desperate to be hip but will also be three months behind the trend music rags."

My thoughts exactly.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Good comics are good comics. Just as good music is good music. It's a matter of personal taste.

I actually agree with this, despite my previous post. I think the distinction between "indie" and "mainstream" comics is sort of arbitrary.

[Biggbuttmcgruff!!!!]

okay...change "Interpol" to "Starflyer 59". I genuinly think they are better than Interpol,and definatly indie.

[Dan Apodaca]

Christian music?

[Biggbuttmcgruff!!!!]

Yes,they are christians,but you really cant tell from the lyrics. In interviews,they say they just make music for the sake of music. Really eclectic stuff.

[Adam Crocker]

I think fans of indie comics are more like fans of classical music.

Man, you really don't know much about indie rock snobs do you?

You mean pretentious a-holes?

Man, you really don't know much about indie rock snobs do you? ;)

I'd say yes New Avengers is 'pop' but then again so is Blue Monday. For me the distinction is more between mainstream and indie, than pop and indie since I regard the concept of 'popular music' as not so much being contingent on sales than form and intent. DJ Cam looks to get asses on the dance floor much like Jelly Roll Morton did while Yo La Tengo's Ira Kaplan writes simple guitar pop, even if it is filtered through VU obsessed rock critic lense, meant to appeal to people through the pop/rock song (even if it is a small subculture) much in the way Paul McCartney did. It's about popular musical forms that invite an inclusive rather than exclusive audience. (So contrast to Ornette Coleman's free jazz, Godspeed! You Black Emperor's post-rock, or...Daniel Clowes and the Raw Anthologies). When Ellis did Ministry of Space he was looking at comics as popular music. The only major difference here is that unlike other mediums American comics is dominated by a single commercial genre.

What the New Avengers really are comparable to is the Strokes. Oooooh look at me mommy! I'm so hip and cool! I don't have an original bone in my body!

-- Adam Crocker;
Indie Rock Snob Since 2002 (pretentious asshole for a few years longer...)

[howyadoin]

Marvel's Ultimate line is nothing but cover tunes.Damn, good call.

[Punchy]

I agree with 'lex and Brandon. Good art is good art no matter if it is popular or independant.

It is when you begin to pre-judge something because it is popular or independant, that's when you turn into a dick.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

The problem is your definition of pop music.

Are we talking good pop or bad pop?

Cause pop has a big area it covers.

At it's lowest ebb you have thing like Jessica simpsons covering "These Boots Are Made For Walking".

But at the other end of pop you have The Beatles.

But I'd say New Avengers probably isn't pop.
Pop, be it good or bad, generally only lasts a few minutes and has to cram its point in there.
New Avengers is written by Bendis so for good or ill, I really don't see that happeneing.

[Adam Crocker]

But I'd say New Avengers probably isn't pop.
Pop, be it good or bad, generally only lasts a few minutes and has to cram its point in there.
New Avengers is written by Bendis so for good or ill, I really don't see that happeneing.

So what you're saying is that New Avengers is a pompous, wanky arena rock band? Shit that's probably an even better comparison.

[Biggbuttmcgruff!!!!]

I think maybe calling New Avengers an arena rock band is probably on point. I'd say they are the Velvet Revolver of comics.

[Paul McEnery]

I think maybe calling New Avengers an arena rock band is probably on point. I'd say they are the Velvet Revolver of comics.
Hmm. Liked the Interpol reference, but maybe the White Stripes hits it better.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Hmm. Liked the Interpol reference, but maybe the White Stripes hits it better.

While the white Stripes definetly have one foot in the past they do keep it original.
They also brought things back to basics, so if New Avengers wrapped every story up that issue, or at most had a two parter then maybe.

Also the whole brother/sister husband/wife thing was pretty cool.

(and I like them so piss off.)

[Paul McEnery]

While the white Stripes definetly have one foot in the past they do keep it original.
They also brought things back to basics, so if New Avengers wrapped every story up that issue, or at most had a two parter then maybe.

Also the whole brother/sister husband/wife thing was pretty cool.

(and I like them so piss off.)
See, I was listening to the radio, and this song comes on, and I'm thinking: Oh for God's sake, Robert Plant, stop trying to be trendy; you'll never sound good again, so spend your nostalgia royalty checks and be happy.

But, of course, it was the White Stripes.

Mind, I liked the Loretta Lynn record.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

See, I was listening to the radio, and this song comes on, and I'm thinking: Oh for God's sake, Robert Plant, stop trying to be trendy; you'll never sound good again, so spend your nostalgia royalty checks and be happy.

But, of course, it was the White Stripes.


Jack White and Plant sound the same?

That's an odd call.

[StoneGold]

Man, you really don't know much about indie rock snobs do you? ;)

I'd say yes New Avengers is 'pop' but then again so is Blue Monday. For me the distinction is more between mainstream Blah blah blah blah and it just keeps going on and on.
I don't know, I think you proved I was pretty much on point.

[Adam Crocker]

I don't know, I think you proved I was pretty much on point.

Blah blah blah blah and it just keeps going on and on.

Oh come now! That's not even anywhere near what I am capable of. I mean it was only a paragraph and not even ten lines! ;)

[Paul McEnery]

Jack White and Plant sound the same?

That's an odd call.
He does on that song. Uses Bonham's drum style, too.

Funnily enough, a couple days later, I heard someone else who sounded just like Plant. Bunch of feebly westernized world music in the background with some sad-ass Plant-like flowerchild warbling in front of it.

Of course, this time, it was Plant.

[Adam Crocker]

He does on that song. Uses Bonham's drum style, too.

Is that the new single? Can't say I like it much myself, but the funny thing was that I listened to the new album streamed online and the rest of the album mostly sounds very different.

Funnily enough, a couple days later, I heard someone else who sounded just like Plant. Bunch of feebly westernized world music in the background with some sad-ass Plant-like flowerchild warbling in front of it.

Of course, this time, it was Plant.

Ouch, so all the good reviews I heard about the new Robert Plant album are all off base?

[Paul McEnery]

Is that the new single? Can't say I like it much myself, but the funny thing was that I listened to the new album streamed online and the rest of the album mostly sounds very different.



Ouch, so all the good reviews I heard about the new Robert Plant album are all off base?
Well of course they are. Soppy nostalgic gits. The only thing the man ever had going for him was being skinny and white in the right place and time. Just like Morrison, years on, sounds like a drunk in an Irish Karaoke, Plant sounds like a bricklayer humming on the job, pausing to occasionally yell "Get yer tits out, darling!".

[Adam Crocker]

Well of course they are. Soppy nostalgic gits. The only thing the man ever had going for him was being skinny and white in the right place and time. Just like Morrison, years on, sounds like a drunk in an Irish Karaoke, Plant sounds like a bricklayer humming on the job, pausing to occasionally yell "Get yer tits out, darling!".

Man, now I'm curious as to what you think of the rest Led Zeppelin.

(Not the Doors though. They never interested me and I agree with you completely on Jim Morrison, though I think an Irish accent would actually be an improvement for him by his voice something even remotely interesting for me to latch onto.)

[Paul McEnery]

Man, now I'm curious as to what you think of the rest Led Zeppelin.

(Not the Doors though. They never interested me and I agree with you completely on Jim Morrison, though I think an Irish accent would actually be an improvement for him by his voice something even remotely interesting for me to latch onto.)
Ah, you know how it is. I grew out of them in '77. Near on 30 years on (Jesus!), I can listen to some of the sounds and get a nostalgic pang out of it. And the Whole Lotta Love riff is fine. But I mean, who cares any more? Besides, now I've got the real Robert Johnson's records, I'm pretty much covered.

[Bakema NL]

All this "that's underground/indie" in whatever medium is so overrated. And most of the time it's "underground/indie = not commercial" and when it gets commercial just on its own merits it's "they suck, they are so commercial now".......and even when it's done deliberately it's still because someone has chosen to do it, go like something else then. All of a sudden everything that went before and comes after is crap, people are sell-outs and more of that crap..................everybody wants to make a buck people, the ones screaming they don't want that probably want it the most.

I like a good mix, there's mainstream I like and also underground/indie, goes for music and comics, why should I exclude one or the other or not like one or the other? Most of the time people do that because of others around them, I like to make my own choices, especially in these areas.

[Adam Crocker]

All this "that's underground/indie" in whatever medium is so overrated. And most of the time it's "underground/indie = not commercial"...

Well generally it is, which is why its called underground or independent.

...and when it gets commercial just on its own merits it's "they suck, they are so commercial now"...

Got any examples? It's not so much that I doubt it has ever occurred, but I always hear about this phenomenon, but for the life of me I cannot think of any concrete examples of this being applied so usually I'm at a loss with these kinds of statements.

[Adam Crocker]

Ah, you know how it is. I grew out of them in '77.

Ah punk. How many young men have you turned away from white guys playing the blues?

[Paul McEnery]

Ah punk. How many young men have you turned away from white guys playing the blues?
Not anywhere near enough.

Only Jon Spencer is acceptable.

[Adam Crocker]

Not anywhere near enough.

Only Jon Spencer is acceptable.

Why Jon Spencer?

[Paul McEnery]

Why Jon Spencer?
Because he yells "Blues Explosion!" every five seconds. And has a theremin in the band. And because he yells "Blues Explosion!" every five seconds.

[Adam Crocker]

Because he yells "Blues Explosion!" every five seconds. And has a theremin in the band. And because he yells "Blues Explosion!" every five seconds.

So what you're saying is that New Avengers would be much better if one of the character's shouted "Blues Explosion" every page?

Personally I think it would be improved if they all used Japanese anime style attacks with long names.

And Godzilla. Everything is better with Godzilla.

[Pepsigirl]

I think this whole thread is pretty silly.

[Dan Apodaca]

Not anywhere near enough.

Only Jon Spencer is acceptable.

What do you think of Doug Martsch's solo album?

[Adam Crocker]

I think this whole thread is pretty silly.

Ah, but what if every fifth post had the words "BLUES EXPLOSION!" in it?

[Bakema NL]

Well generally it is, which is why its called underground or independent.



Got any examples? It's not so much that I doubt it has ever occurred, but I always hear about this phenomenon, but for the life of me I cannot think of any concrete examples of this being applied so usually I'm at a loss with these kinds of statements.

Examples..........first one to come to mind is a Dutch band Within temptation, guess you probably don't know them. At first, known to a select group of people, mainly gothics. When their 3rd album was out for over a year one of the songs got a very cheap videoclip, got played every 15 minutes on a tv channel and wham, they were nationally known and the album sold by the boatloads. After that a lot of the first-time "fans" yelled sell-outs and didn't bother with them anymore. The next album was a long wait, a big success commercially, but a lot of complaints about the so-called hardcore fans it's too soft, there are no grunts etc.

There's the problem of labeling just what is underground maybe........ok underground = not commercial as in doesn't make money/wants to make money, but that's just crap, almost all of them want to make money.
Metallica comes to mind, Marilyn Manson, REM, Filter.....and Nine inch nails for that matter.
And just look up the history of English band Chumbawamba.....maybe the best example where the yelling really is justified......it seems....

A lot of times it's debatable, again subjective material, Nine inch nails for example is not really accessible for all....Smashing pumpkins come to mind too in that regard.

[Pepsigirl]

I never use the term underground, much less use it interchangeably with indie. To me, underground can be anything, while indie is so much easier to define. Whether you want to debate it or not, indie means any band or artist on an independent label.

[Paul McEnery]

Examples..........first one to come to mind is a Dutch band Within temptation, guess you probably don't know them. At first, known to a select group of people, mainly gothics. When their 3rd album was out for over a year one of the songs got a very cheap videoclip, got played every 15 minutes on a tv channel and wham, they were nationally known and the album sold by the boatloads. After that a lot of the first-time "fans" yelled sell-outs and didn't bother with them anymore. The next album was a long wait, a big success commercially, but a lot of complaints about the so-called hardcore fans it's too soft, there are no grunts etc.

There's the problem of labeling just what is underground maybe........ok underground = not commercial as in doesn't make money/wants to make money, but that's just crap, almost all of them want to make money.
Metallica comes to mind, Marilyn Manson, REM, Filter.....and Nine inch nails for that matter.
And just look up the history of English band Chumbawamba.....maybe the best example where the yelling really is justified......it seems....

A lot of times it's debatable, again subjective material, Nine inch nails for example is not really accessible for all....Smashing pumpkins come to mind too in that regard.
Aww, c'mon, what did Chumbawumba ever do to upset you?

EDIT: BLUES EXPLOSION!!!!!!!

[Paul McEnery]

What do you think of Doug Martsch's solo album?
Didn't know he had one. Is it any good?

Interesting thing is, I can't stand any of Jon Spencer's other projects. Probably because...

[Adam Crocker]

Interesting thing is, I can't stand any of Jon Spencer's other projects. Probably because...

No theremin eh?

BLUES EXPLOSION!!!!!!!

[Paul McEnery]

No theremin eh?

BLUES EXPLOSION!!!!!!!
And this is why Warren's comics are better than Bendis's.

[howyadoin]

Ouch, so all the good reviews I heard about the new Robert Plant album are all off base?Not at all. I heard it last night, and it sounds great. The one before that was damn good, too.

Besides, now I've got the real Robert Johnson's records, I'm pretty much covered.Odd. I don't remember Robert Johnson ever doing anything that sounded Middle Eastern. Or anything like "Bonzo's Montreux", for that matter.

[Punchy]

Odd. I don't remember Robert Johnson ever doing anything that sounded Middle Eastern. Or anything like "Bonzo's Montreux", for that matter.

Totally. If you want to say that Zep ripped off some blues masters on their first record, fine. But trying to boil them down to nothing but Robert Johnson knockoffs is really stretching it particularly since part of their appeal is all of the idioms they touch on.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I really like the New Avengers Interpol comparison.

Because the best you can hope for out of the mass attention Interpol gets is that it will help people discover Joy Division and such.

That's my hope with New Avengers - that some people will go back and read early Bendis - GoldFish and Torso and then maybe branch out from there, discovering that there is more than just glossy superheroes.

(That said I don't mind Interpol's second album. I never knew until Alex told me on here that they were mass market and despised. I only ever read a review of them and brought Antics and thought it was good (got that first one soon after and didn't like that at all). But then I heard the were inspired by Joy Division so I checked them out (had been wanting too after seeing 24 Hour Party People) and their album Closer just blew Interpol out of the water).

[Bakema NL]

Aww, c'mon, what did Chumbawumba ever do to upset you?

EDIT: BLUES EXPLOSION!!!!!!!

Hahaha, nothing, I'm not even into the band. But I know their history, where they come from.
And I was not burning them here, on the contrary, I left it open......."it seems"....... Because yeah, they made a big commercial hit, their hit song was used for a commercial, reeks of treachery, but that's not entirely all...the money they made off it was given to some anti-corporate company foundation, or whatever I have to call it.

[surferfan23]

I see your point, so in terms of comics, yeah both of the Avengers books are the N-Sync of comics nowadays. JSA is the solid mainstay, and there is always the flavor of the month around too.