How can anyone say Supes has a crappy rogues gallery?

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I mean, I got to thinking, Superman's big villains are Luthor, Brainiac, Darkseid, Doomsday, Metallo, Parasite, Mxy, and Bizzaro.

Am I the only one that thinks that's a pretty damn good selection of baddies?

The animated series made it that much better adding Livewire and Volcana to the mix.

I mean, it's no Batman or Spidey rogues gallery, but he's got plenty of good villains.

[Adem]

I like Superman's rogue gallery whats wrong with it? I do though think some are used more than others and it gets a little old. More Parasite I say!

[sixstringguild]

Don't forget General Zod.

[Zeta]

I mean, I got to thinking, Superman's big villains are Luthor, Brainiac, Darkseid, Doomsday, Metallo, Parasite, Mxy, and Bizzaro.

Am I the only one that thinks that's a pretty damn good selection of baddies?

The animated series made it that much better adding Livewire and Volcana to the mix.

I mean, it's no Batman or Spidey rogues gallery, but he's got plenty of good villains.

The problem is that most people end up thinking of Toyman and Titano. XD

[bannermanonemillion]

Not just that but someone like Zod, I mean which one? The one Superman killed? The OWAW one? The Azzarello "For Tomorrow" one?

Hey, DC, pick an uber-badguy and stick with it!

[Alan2099]

I refuse to except any Zod but movie Zod (or at least a Zod based on that one.)

[bannermanonemillion]

I refuse to except any Zod but movie Zod (or at least a Zod based on that one.)

Better yet, have ONE COHESIVE STORY about Zod and explaining the previous versions of him, THEN giving us a current Zod to hassle Supes.

My theory?

The Zod that Superman killed in the alternate realm is dead dead dead. Period.

The Zod we saw in OWAW was an altered human who was posessed by Zod's spirit, the Zod that lived on Krypton before it was destroyed. After that Zod died (crashing into Superman's back, sheesh, Darth Maul called, he wants his lame death back) his essence went into the Phantom Zone and solidified into a real body (I'll argue that the PZ doesn't match normal physics based on writer fiat), forgot everything that happened from his life on Earth including OWAW (if only we all could) and only recalled his life on Krypton so that when we see him again in "For Tomorrow" he recalls Jor-El and how they treated each other.

That might have some holes in it but it's a start.

[Viking Bastard]

First off Darkseid isn't really a Supes foe, really. He's a general DCU foe. It also doesn't
help that he's often written like a putz.


Luthor has also been becoming more and more of a DCU-level type character. He is
definately Supes's strongest player but I think his villain-status has been damaged a
bit by overexposure. Not that he's any less cool a villain, but that's he's become more
of a supporting character than a villain. Villainous supporting character, for sure, but
still not 'the bad guy of this months's issue' kinda guy. He is ever present, in all stories.


Brainiac is a joke. God, it's sad to see the Dini/Timm version of the character and then
witness stupidity like Return to Krypton. Sigh. Brainiac needs a 'thing'. A actual motivation
other than Death To Superman. I wonder if they can somehow make the DCU version
more like the AniDCU version somehow.


Parasite is another villain that's cool in the cartoons but not that much otherwise.


Metallo is a third. Giant Manga Metallo? WTF?


Doomsday is a one trick pony.


Mzk and Bizarro are neat, but requires a writer with a talent with the whimsical.


The new Zod could become interesting. We'll see. One must wonder if calling him Jax-Ur
wouldn't have been simpler because of the baggage.


For villains to be awesome, they need to be written awesomly. Look at Johns' resurrection
of the Flash rogues.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Flash's rogues, for all intents and purposes, should be the lamest, corniest bunch of idiots around...and somehow, Johns makes them COOL.

Imagine if someone that inspired took ahold of Superman's gallery.

And I see Darkseid as a Superman villain, as well as a general DC villain. Same with Lex. Both can and do create trouble on a universal scale, but both are also a personal nemesis to Superman.

[grendel824]

Mostly through carefuly enunciation and repetition, I'd wager.

[Pink]

I supose Superman's rogues gallery is interesting in concept, it just tends to be bad writeing most of the time that lets the side down. Darkseid is a personal favouarte of mine.

One thing that annoys me though is Supermans no killing thing, when it goes too far. I mean, theres been several occastions where Superman has had the chance to let Darkseid die hasn't he?

Surely thats a bigger deal than letting a common criminal die. Surely you can't aford to think that same way when it comes to someone as evil and powerful as Darkseid. Isn't it like like having the chance to let Saddam Hussein or Asoma Bin Laden be killed?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I dunno, given that Darkseid's intitial appearances were in a Superman comic, I think Supes has a pretty good claim on him as a major part of his rogues gallery.

The thing with most of Superman's big baddies is that they're all so dangerous they almost have to be threats to the entire DCU. Its much the same Green Lantern, whose villains were behind Crisis on Infinite Earths. When the hero is that powerful, its pretty tough to keep their villains contained to only one hero.

[karasu]

Batman has a weak rogue's gallery, with the exception of The Joker. I dont understand how he's even challenged by The Penguin and the rest. The Riddler? Get real. Two Face is cool.

[lalalei2001]

Does Superman have any female villains?

[karasu]

There was Maxima.

[We R. Venom]

Superman's rogues are real great. I like the majority of them which more than i can say for others.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

"Batman has a weak rogue's gallery, with the exception of The Joker. I dont understand how he's even challenged by The Penguin and the rest. The Riddler? Get real. Two Face is cool."

You're kidding, right? Batman's rogues are pretty much universally accepted as one of the best ever in comics history.

And it's not because of power, it's personality that makes them so great.

Seriously, a rogues gallery that has Joker, Harley, Two-Face, Riddler, Clayface, Poison Ivy, Freeze, Black Mask, Ras, Scarface, Catwoman, Scarecrow, Deadshot, Shiva, and several others isn't weak by any means.

As for Superman's female villains, not much to work with in the comics. In animated continuity, though, there's Volcana and Livewire...both were/are pretty cool. And Livewire's showing up in JLU's next season.

[Converge]

In terms of the top 5 best Rogues galleries in comics it goes:

1. X-Men
2. Batman
3. Spiderman
4. Fantastic Four
5. Superman

Fantastic Four beat out Superman only because of Dr. Doom, the single greatest villain in comics. In fact, I think they should probably be at number one.

[karasu]

And it's not because of power, it's personality that makes them so great.

Seriously, a rogues gallery that has Joker, Harley, Two-Face, Riddler, Clayface, Poison Ivy, Freeze, Black Mask, Ras, Scarface, Catwoman, Scarecrow, Deadshot, Shiva, and several others isn't weak by any means.

I said nothing of power. Some of those you listed don't seem to fit into the canonical rogue's gallery. I'm thinking more along the lines of The Penguin, The Riddler, Catwoman (not much of a villian really), Killer Croc, Ventriliquist, The Mad Hatter, and Freeze. A few of them are cool, like The Joker, Bane, Ra's, Two face, but the others are pretty goofy. Batman's suppossed to be this uber genius, but none of his villians are too bright.

I agree with Converge about Doom. He's probably the best ever. A true genius.

[Grazzt]

I said nothing of power. Some of those you listed don't seem to fit into the canonical rogue's gallery. I'm thinking more along the lines of The Penguin, The Riddler, Catwoman (not much of a villian really), Killer Croc, Ventriliquist, The Mad Hatter, and Freeze. A few of them are cool, like The Joker, Bane, Ra's, Two face, but the others are pretty goofy. Batman's suppossed to be this uber genius, but none of his villians are too bright.

Why the dissing on Penguin and Riddler? I thought they had been remade into total badasses recently.

[karasu]

Have they? I didn't know that.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Well, if you want to look at the a-list rogue's gallery, it's:

Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Two-Face, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow, and Ras. Clayface and Bane(and maybe even Hatter) are arguable.

That's a GREAT lineup. Aside from the Penguin, who most people think is lame(and Black Mask IMO plays a much better crime boss than he ever has), all of these are great characters.

And his villains "aren't too bright"? Are you serious? Intelligence is one of the defining elements of the Bat-rogues. Their brains...along with their insanity...are what makes them so dangerous in the first place.

[Ultraman Max]

I think people tend to focus on characters like prankster and toyman when they say Superman has a lame rogues gallery, and there seem to be quite a bit of people who don't care for Bizarro for whatever odd reason.

If anything Superman was probably hurt by his reboot, because in attempting to make him the sole survivor of Krypton you end up taking away some of his better villians, Zod for example. And the new ones they came up with like Silver Banshee and Rampage didn't seem to catch on so much. Maxima seemed to have a following for a while but then turned hero and later died. In fact, I can't think of any new villian created since The Death and Return of Superman (which gave us Doomsday, Cyborg Superman and The Eradicator) that has lasted .... there was Conduit, Bloodsport, Cauldron, Demolitia, HiTech, Enchantadora, ummmmmm Immperex (I think that's what he was called)... and probably a bunch more I'm forgetting.

One of my favorite stories when I was a kid was when the husband and wife sorcerer pair of Satanus and Satana split Superman in half giving each half specific powers and then seperated the two parts in time. I know that post crisis those two were a brother-sister demon pair and related to the wizard Shazam but what's happened to them since?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Does Superman have any female villains?

Silver Banshee, Maxima, Ursa, Faora and, most recently, Brainiac 8 are the biggies. There's been a been a few minor ones here and there though.

[lalalei2001]

Who are they? You mean Ursa from the movie, right? :confused:

[karasu]

Well, if you want to look at the a-list rogue's gallery, it's:

Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Two-Face, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow, and Ras. Clayface and Bane(and maybe even Hatter) are arguable.

That's a GREAT lineup. Aside from the Penguin, who most people think is lame(and Black Mask IMO plays a much better crime boss than he ever has), all of these are great characters.

And his villains "aren't too bright"? Are you serious? Intelligence is one of the defining elements of the Bat-rogues. Their brains...along with their insanity...are what makes them so dangerous in the first place.


Intelligence is the defining element of The Scarecrow and Ra's, but come on, not the rest of them. Two face and The Joker arent any kind of uberbrains, they're just psychotic criminals. I don't even consider Catwoman a villian haha. Poison Ivy? jesus. Ah well, different strokes.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Ivy, Riddler, and Freeze are all extremely intelligent as well. And Joker isn't dumb by any means. A lot of the b-listers are packing brainpower too, like Hatter for example. Bane's no slouch and even Harley Quinn was a doctor before she went totally wacko.

A good 3/4 of the Batman rogues gallery are intelligent. Ras has centuries of knowledge behind him. Ivy's botanical and chemical skills are almost unmatched. Riddler's probably one of the smartest humans in the DC universe, at least among the non-metas...though his compulsion to leave riddles behind means his brilliance is usually thwarted by his own brilliance. And so on, and so on...

Of course, I have no idea what your exposure to most of these villains has been. If you're basing your opinion on the live movies, then I can certainly see why you'd think people like Ivy and Riddler are crappy morons.

[karasu]

Comics, movies, animated series, etcetera etcetera. I've never been impressed with any of Ivy's plans to turn the world into a giant tree farm. She's hot though.

I was wrong to call his Rogue's gallery weak, I admit that. In retrospect I enjoy more than I thought.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Personally, one of my favorite Ivy stories is "House & Garden" from the animated series...which is really just about a delusional person trying to find happiness. Instead some scheme to get rich or swarm Gotham with plantlife.

The animated series plays a big part overall when it comes to really establishing Batman's rogues, IMO. It took people who were basically just crooks with gimmicks, like Ivy and Freeze...and really made them into interesting, well-rounded characters with real human motivations.

Honestly, I think if it wasn't for the animated series, Batman's rogues gallery wouldn't be nearly as great as it is now.

Supes rogues for the most part got a great treatment in his animated series, too. Especially Brainiac.

[Headhunter]

Luthor, Zod, Brainiac, Darkseid, and of course Doomsday work for me. Not bad at all.

I enjoy Superman more when he has issues with other heroes, though; Wonder Woman and Batman because of their conflicting philosophies, or when battling other heroes like Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Who are they? You mean Ursa from the movie, right? :confused:

Yeah, she was called Ursa in the movies, but she was essentially the same character as Faora from the comics and cartoons. Same with General Zod, who was a minor Phantom Zone baddie until the movies, but replaced Jax-Ur's role as the numero uno Phantom Zone criminal because he was better known. Whatever her name, she was usually portrayed as General Zod/Jax-Ur's second in command. The idea that she's a murderous psychopath whose hatred of men extends even to children was something the movies brought in though.

[Apathy Boy]

Superman has the best Rogue's Gallery in all of comics.

Luthor. Braniac. Bizarro. Zod. Mxyzptlk. Darkseid. Cool second-tier villains like Parasite and Metallo. The best monkey villain ever created, Titano.

No one else has a Rogue's Gallery that diverse and that interesting. You've got criminal masterminds and brute force guys. You've got fun characters and deadly serious characters. You've got characters who hate Superman, characters who want universal domination, and characters who just want a nice little snack.

It's just a shame that all these characters have been so horribly mismanaged over the last few decades.

[Grant]

I dunno, given that Darkseid's intitial appearances were in a Superman comic, I think Supes has a pretty good claim on him as a major part of his rogues gallery.

Really? Was this in Jimmy Olsen? I haven't picked up those trades yet.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Really? Was this in Jimmy Olsen? I haven't picked up those trades yet.

Yep. The whole Fourth World concept first appeared in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen before being spun off into its own titles.

PS Bob Newhart rocks

[SITHLORD]

I think it's important to take Rogues gallery threads with a grain of salt. Each individual heroes group of foes are tailored by the writers to be challenging to that hero. SO where Superman would make short work of say, Flash's, Batmans might overpower the Flash's group, and vice versa. Think about it, Superman vs. The Riddler, Batman vs. Doomsday. ??????

Each gallery is made to be challenging to that heroes skills.

[grendel824]

That said, I do sometimes bristle at the idea that a given title's "rogues gallery" gets used almost exclusively in that title - if the DCU is so darned big and interconnected, I'd rather see many more stories where the writers don't feel obligated to use "that book's" villains - the whole DCU should be your playground, within reason. Obviously, Batman's not going to be mixing it up with Darkseid too often on the streets of Gotham, but I'm sure you get my drift...

[LukeRed5]

Batman has a weak rogue's gallery, with the exception of The Joker. I dont understand how he's even challenged by The Penguin and the rest. The Riddler? Get real. Two Face is cool.

Are smoking crack, sir? I agree the Penguin is lame, but Batman has the best group of villians in the DC Universe.