OK, now DC's just *begging* me to drop JSA

[Loren]

Despite the hype, and despite my general fondness for a lot of DC's crossovers during the last decade (even Zero Hour), I'm just not into "Infinite Crisis." I didn't buy Identity Crisis, the only tie-in minis I even tried were OMAC (for which I tried the first issue at 75 cents, but didn't feel like reading further) and Villains United (which I continue buying, even though I'm not digging it nearly as much as others seem to), and I'm feeling virtually no anticipation for the big event itself.

Thus, it should come as no surprise that I'm not terribly thrilled about having the DC books I *do* buy being turned into tie-in books. Frankly, I don't buy many of the DCU superhero books these days, but JSA is among the ones I do. So the 3-part "Day of Vengeance" crossover that just wrapped up aggravated me.

Now comes this news (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39687) from Newsarama: JSA #76 and 77 are also going to be official "Day of Vengeance" tie-ins. This is in addition to the previously-announced Keith Champagne arc in #78-80, which will also be a "Day of Vengeance" tie-in.

That makes for eight consecutive issues that are tie-ins to a six-issue mini-series. (Even if we assume the unlikely prospect that only the first of Keith's issues is a tie-in, that's still six issues.) Why is DC, or at least Geoff Johns, insistent on co-opting this title for tie-in purposes for a full 2/3 of a year, and for two months longer than the title it's being tied into?

I'd drop the book tomorrow if it wasn't for the equally aggravating fact that Johns (and presumably Champagne) are still advancing certain ongoing stories in these issues. So if I skip them, it's at my own peril. I get to continue plopping down $2.50 a month, even though I'm only getting the equivalent of half a true JSA issue. It certainly looks like by the end of eight months, I'll have more or less spent $10 on JSA stories and $10 on DoV material I didn't want.

When it was just three issues, I just chose to suffer through it. But the notion of another five months of "Day of Vengeance" crossover-fever might well drive me off a title I've been buying for five years. Perhaps I should just vote with my wallet, and buy a lot of the issues off eBay after it's all over.

Loren

[Expletive Deleted]

. . . That's just ridiculous.

Eight issues?

Yikes.

[Phoney Bone]

The Spectre and Eclipso have played huge roles throughout the entire run of this series. The Spectre was also one of the original team members. If the very nature of DCU magic will be changed (according to Wilingham), doesn't that raise questions about how Dr. Fate, J.J. Thunder, and Green Lantern will be affected after DoV ends? Seems like a natural extension to me.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's not like you had to be reading Day of Vengeance or anything else to know what's been going on in JSA. These tie-ins have all been very self-contained and any info you might need was provided for readers.

So, what's the problem?

Half a true issue of JSA? How do you get this? Was Black Reign not a JSA story? This last Day of Vengeance tie-in dealt only with the aftermath of Black Reign. The Spectre is a JSA character. Eclipso has been a recurring JSA baddie. Captain Marvel used to be a member and Stargirl's boyfriend.

How is this only half a true issue of JSA? Or is this just an excuse to complain some more about Infinite Crisis?

[Loren]

The Spectre and Eclipso have played huge roles throughout the entire run of this series.

Hardly. The Spectre guest-starred during the first Injustice Gang arc, and I don't recall the character having any other substantive guest-starring role until the 3-part "Redemption Lost" arc from last year (which I also wish I'd skipped, as it was little more than a prelude tie-in to "Green Lantern: Rebirth," another Johns mini).

Eclipso's been a major player in a couple of arcs, but the current character doesn't really have that much in common with the previous incarnations.

If the very nature of DCU magic will be changed (according to Wilingham), doesn't that raise questions about how Dr. Fate, J.J. Thunder, and Green Lantern will be affected after DoV ends? Seems like a natural extension to me.

For a couple of issues? Sure, why not. But for EIGHT? Of which five come out before DoV ends, so they *can't* deal with the aftershock. And the sixth issue still talks about "the Spectre's rampage continues."

Heck, for all I know, all these DoV crossovers will be immediately followed by a handful more of "Infinite Crisis" crossover issues. We won't know for certain for another three months, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Hardly. The Spectre guest-starred during the first Injustice Gang arc, and I don't recall the character having any other substantive guest-starring role until the 3-part "Redemption Lost" arc from last year (which I also wish I'd skipped, as it was little more than a prelude tie-in to "Green Lantern: Rebirth," another Johns mini).

Eclipso's been a major player in a couple of arcs, but the current character doesn't really have that much in common with the previous incarnations.



Waitaminit. The Spectre doesn't count because he hasn't been a major character in the current JSA series, even though he was a founding member of the original team and Eclipso doesn't count because he wasn't involved with the original team, even though he was a major character in the current JSA series.

Wow. Sounds to me like you're just trying to think of excuses to hate this, cause that is the strangest reason for dropping a comic I've heard in awhile. Why not just drop it because the writing or the art aren't to your liking?

But, fair enough, I'm not wanna waste anymore of my time trying to convince you otherwise. You wanna drop JSA because The Spectre/Eclipso/Shazam stuff isn't JSA enough for you. Go ahead. Its your money.

[Loren]

It's not like you had to be reading Day of Vengeance or anything else to know what's been going on in JSA. These tie-ins have all been very self-contained and any info you might need was provided for readers.

So, what's the problem?

Eight issues. Two issues longer than DoV itself. It's not the crossover by itself; it's the overkill.

I'm reading both "Villains United" and "The Flash," but if the latter had eight months of crossovers with the former, I'd still be irked.

Half a true issue of JSA? How do you get this? Was Black Reign not a JSA story? This last Day of Vengeance tie-in dealt only with the aftermath of Black Reign. The Spectre is a JSA character. Eclipso has been a recurring JSA baddie. Captain Marvel used to be a member and Stargirl's boyfriend.

I thought the last 3-parter was built on a fairly tortured premise to get the Spectre into Kahndaq, had an ending that was a bit too deus ex machina, and was dragged out an issue too long (I had the same length problem with the Hal Spectre arc). These next five months of crossovers might be relatively self-explanatory, but the fact remains that the DoV plots have been shoehorned into the title.

Thankfully I'd been reading about DoV online, because I'm not sure how clear it would've been to me otherwise. And the Captain Marvel scene with the Wizard in #73 still doesn't make much sense to me.

But really, I just don't want to read about fallout from the Spectre's rampage in his own mini-series for the better part of a year, especially since I don't like the whole 'hostless Spectre' set-up to start with. I want to read about the JSA, not eight months about how the events of some mini-series are affecting the JSA.

How is this only half a true issue of JSA? Or is this just an excuse to complain some more about Infinite Crisis?

I dropped Marvel's "The Pulse" severa months back for much the same reason. Suddenly the book was promising five issues of tie-ins to the "Secret War" mini-series, which I wasn't reading, followed by a tie-in issue to "House of M," which I also wasn't planning to read. So rather than buy those six issues, I decided to put that money toward books that don't tie into books I don't care about.

[Loren]

Waitaminit. The Spectre doesn't count because he hasn't been a major character in the current JSA series, even though he was a founding member of the original team

Phoney said "The Spectre and Eclipso have played huge roles throughout the entire run of this series." The Spectre hasn't. Nothing was said about the team from the '40s.

and Eclipso doesn't count because he wasn't involved with the original team, even though he was a major character in the current JSA series.

That's not what I meant about Eclipso at all. The character of that name has been a part of two arcs in the current series: once as the old-school Eclipso, and once as Alexclipso. The character currently running around with the name doesn't make me think of either of those incarnations; different look, different motive, different gender, etc. For all intents and purposes, it's a new character to me.

Y'know, Batman is outright starring in "The OMAC Project," and I don't see any of the Bat-titles being subjected to multiple months of tie-ins with his mini. Hawkman's a long-time JSA member too, and he's starring in the "Rann/Thanagar" book, if I'm not mistaken. But no month-after-month-after-month of Rann crossovers in JSA, or even in "Hawkman," for that matter.

Wow. Sounds to me like you're just trying to think of excuses to hate this, cause that is the strangest reason for dropping a comic I've heard in awhile. Why not just drop it because the writing or the art aren't to your liking?

Because the art is good. I think I liked Kirk best on the title, but it's still good. And I like the characters and I want to see where they're going. But I'm not enthused by eight months of what I see as unnecessary padding, tied to a premise I don't like, on a title that already has a tendency to move plots along slowly.

It's sort of a cost-benefit thing. When I spend $2.50 on a JSA issue, am I getting my money's worth of enjoyment out of that investment? When it's eight consecutive months of tie-ins with a mini-series I don't like and don't care about, that makes that $2.50 go not quite as far.

[The Shadow]

I can understand being pissed at this... especially if you aren't reading the mini's.

[cactusmaac]

I don't really mind the tie-in to DoV even though I'm not reading it.

However the last arc was just pretty meh and seeing as how I jumped on for the 1951 arc, I'm OK with jumping off now.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's sort of a cost-benefit thing. When I spend $2.50 on a JSA issue, am I getting my money's worth of enjoyment out of that investment? When it's eight consecutive months of tie-ins with a mini-series I don't like and don't care about, that makes that $2.50 go not quite as far.

That makes sense. I'd suggest dropping the title till after the One Year Later flip, then jumping back on with all the other new readers. Anything you missed will be recapped for you.

[Ilash]

I don't really understand what the problem is here. The thing about these tie-ins is that most of the time they only have a small part to do with the actual crossover going on. The last arc, for example, was a DOV tie in but it stood completely by itself with the only link, the rampaging Specter, being explained perfectly well in JSA itself. I understand complaints about the whole Omac/ Sacrifice crossover and I understand people who complain about a tie-in not being tied-in enough but I'm just a bit at a loss as to how JSA is really being hurt by being tangentially tied to a crossover, even one you're not reading.

[SlightlyMad]

JSA is the only monthly I'm still buying. In the current run, there are only 2 issues I haven't bought:
The Identity Crisis tie-in & the Christmas Issue as neither of these seemed to have any impact on the ongoing storylines.
Issues #74 & #75 I had no problem with as they linked back to the Black Reign story perfectly without needing to know the bigger DOV story beyond info given within the issue. So long as the upcoming issues are the same, I will be buying them.

[Sk8maven]

JSA is the only monthly I'm still buying. In the current run, there are only 2 issues I haven't bought:
The Identity Crisis tie-in & the Christmas Issue as neither of these seemed to have any impact on the ongoing storylines.The Christmas issue was a far too rare example of Geoff Johns just letting his hair down and writing a nice simple fun, warm-hearted story. It was also the LAST time he's done so (in JSA, at least, and it sounds like overall).

And it does explain how come Ma Hunkel is now curator of the JSA Museum (and, apparently, chief cook and counselor as well).

Maven

[Tom]

Or is this just an excuse to complain some more about Infinite Crisis?
Or maybe it's a, y'know... actual complaint.

Seriously Bored, I know you hate all the negativity you encounter from online comic fans but you jumping on every person who has a complaint isn't reducing the negativity; it's adding to it.

[SlightlyMad]

The Christmas issue was a far too rare example of Geoff Johns just letting his hair down and writing a nice simple fun, warm-hearted story. It was also the LAST time he's done so (in JSA, at least, and it sounds like overall).

And it does explain how come Ma Hunkel is now curator of the JSA Museum (and, apparently, chief cook and counselor as well).

Maven

Well I am currently in the process of replacing all my comics with trade papaerbacks (2-way eBay thing), so I guess I'll get the story eventually.

[bannermanonemillion]

Y'know, Batman is outright starring in "The OMAC Project," and I don't see any of the Bat-titles being subjected to multiple months of tie-ins with his mini.

That's simple OMAC is destroying the idea of Batman in one way, his regular books are destroying him in another way. They're both torturing readers either way.

[xanderxerxes]

Wow, this is one DC bashing you don't see everyday. :D

just hopped on to JSA with issue 73 (got interested when JSA classified went out). The story is not really that hard to grasp and you really don't need to be buying the mini to enjoy this arc. And for the most part it's actually entertaining.

and common... will you drop a series that actually allows you to escape the shadow of the man of steel and the dark knight? :rolleyes:

[Private America]

Despite the hype, and despite my general fondness for a lot of DC's crossovers during the last decade (even Zero Hour), I'm just not into "Infinite Crisis." I didn't buy Identity Crisis, the only tie-in minis I even tried were OMAC (for which I tried the first issue at 75 cents, but didn't feel like reading further) and Villains United (which I continue buying, even though I'm not digging it nearly as much as others seem to), and I'm feeling virtually no anticipation for the big event itself.

Thus, it should come as no surprise that I'm not terribly thrilled about having the DC books I *do* buy being turned into tie-in books. Frankly, I don't buy many of the DCU superhero books these days, but JSA is among the ones I do. So the 3-part "Day of Vengeance" crossover that just wrapped up aggravated me.

Now comes this news (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39687) from Newsarama: JSA #76 and 77 are also going to be official "Day of Vengeance" tie-ins. This is in addition to the previously-announced Keith Champagne arc in #78-80, which will also be a "Day of Vengeance" tie-in.

That makes for eight consecutive issues that are tie-ins to a six-issue mini-series. (Even if we assume the unlikely prospect that only the first of Keith's issues is a tie-in, that's still six issues.) Why is DC, or at least Geoff Johns, insistent on co-opting this title for tie-in purposes for a full 2/3 of a year, and for two months longer than the title it's being tied into?

I'd drop the book tomorrow if it wasn't for the equally aggravating fact that Johns (and presumably Champagne) are still advancing certain ongoing stories in these issues. So if I skip them, it's at my own peril. I get to continue plopping down $2.50 a month, even though I'm only getting the equivalent of half a true JSA issue. It certainly looks like by the end of eight months, I'll have more or less spent $10 on JSA stories and $10 on DoV material I didn't want.

When it was just three issues, I just chose to suffer through it. But the notion of another five months of "Day of Vengeance" crossover-fever might well drive me off a title I've been buying for five years. Perhaps I should just vote with my wallet, and buy a lot of the issues off eBay after it's all over.

Loren

I'm sympathetic to your plight, but the real question is, why aren't you reading all the CRISIS stuff?

I like to think I'm a discriminating comic book reader, and I find just about all the CRISIS stuff to be gold. And, to prove I am discriminating, I am not buying ANY of the Marvel House of M stuff.

[Expletive Deleted]

I like to think I'm a discriminating comic book reader, and I find just about all the CRISIS stuff to be gold. And, to prove I am discriminating, I am not buying ANY of the Marvel House of M stuff.I'd consider myself fairly discriminating, and I'm enjoying HOUSE OF M while finding the IC build-up to be an extremely mixed bag.

Different strokes for different folks, and all of that.

[Loren]

I'm sympathetic to your plight, but the real question is, why aren't you reading all the CRISIS stuff?

Two chief reasons, I suppose. First would be cost. I tend to keep my pull list fairly short, at about 10 new comics a month (give or take). I'm frugal by nature, so I buy the comics that I find myself really drawn to.

Second, I'm not finding myself drawn to all the Crisis stuff. I'm not sure why, because I have a long history of buying DC's company-wide crossovers. Zero Hour was the first crossover after I started reading comics, and I even bought most of the tie-ins that month. I think I followed every other big DC event since, with the exception of 'Day of Judgment,' which similarly just didn't interest me.

I initially passed on "Identity Crisis" because of the price point ($28 for the whole mini), and the general response from people I trust eventually made me entirely disinterested. I bought "Countdown," but it didn't do anything for me. I didn't think it was the train wreck that some did, but it didn't make me interested in the other minis.

I tried the first issue of "OMAC Project," and found it very blah. I'm often the sort of person who's compelled to see even a bad story through to some sort of resolution, but after #1, I just didn't care at all. I heard lots of good things about the "Adam Strange" mini, and will probably buy the tpb, but "Rann/Thanagar War" ain't my thing. I'm not saying it's bad, but the premise just isn't up my alley. I've never been a big fan of magic and mysticism stories, so "Day of Vengeance" had no appeal either. OK, I'm a little intrigued by Detective Chimp, but since I really dislike Willingham's setup for the Spectre, they sorta cancel each other out.

I'm actually buying and reading "Villains United," but I could take it or leave it. There's nothing wrong with it, but after I read it and put it down, I all but forget about it. When I list off the titles on my pull list, I inevitably forget that I'm even buying the title. It's serviceable, but not memorable for me. At this point, I'm basically still onboard because I trust Gail to provide a good payoff in the latter half. I really hope she delivers.

And as for "Infinite Crisis" itself, at the moment, my reaction is just "Eh." Granted, we know next to nothing about it, but we've been promised that all the lead-in material will come to a head in that event. And since none of the lead-in stuff has been to my fancy, I find myself largely disinterested. Maybe that'll change once actual plot details start trickling out, as opposed to vague stuff like "they face their most dire hour."

[Private America]

I'd consider myself fairly discriminating, and I'm enjoying HOUSE OF M while finding the IC build-up to be an extremely mixed bag.

Different strokes for different folks, and all of that.

No doubt. I really don't like BMB, though I've enjoyed some of his stuff, and in particular I did not care for what he did in Avengers Disassembled, nor the cavalier way it was handled by Marvel editorial.

IC, on the other hand, seems to be a genuine attempt to reinvigorate the DC universe while respecting continuity and making it more friendly to new comic book fans. I love how the heroes are being ripped apart, but trust the something good and better will result from it.

And I like Geoff Johns' writing, so of course I like that aspect of it too.

[Private America]

Loren:

That's cool. I did like Identity Crisis up until the last issue, and I like the fallout from that mini, so that's why I'm really into the Crisis stuff.

But, you have to do what you have to do. I highly recommend SEVEN SOLDIERS if you need a massive crossover fix.

[bannermanonemillion]

IC, on the other hand, seems to be a genuine attempt to reinvigorate the DC universe while respecting continuity and making it more friendly to new comic book fans. I love how the heroes are being ripped apart, but trust the something good and better will result from it.


Try taking that attitude over to the Death Spiral thread on the Rumbles Board and see how long it lasts. :D

[protege]

I'm sympathetic to your plight, but the real question is, why aren't you reading all the CRISIS stuff?

I like to think I'm a discriminating comic book reader, and I find just about all the CRISIS stuff to be gold. And, to prove I am discriminating, I am not buying ANY of the Marvel House of M stuff.
I don't. I'm either finding it too dark- (villains united) or too boring (Everything else,I'm not reading day of vengeance.)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Or maybe it's a, y'know... actual complaint.

Seriously Bored, I know you hate all the negativity you encounter from online comic fans but you jumping on every person who has a complaint isn't reducing the negativity; it's adding to it.

Yeah, you're right. You're right. This is a legit gripe he's got here. I'm just so freaking sick of the constant complaining about Infinite Crisis now. I guess I should take my own advice and ignore all the negativity, but its everywhere these days. The only way to escape it is to simply not go online to chat about comics anymore. And I really, really like chatting about comics, particularly now when things are starting to get interesting. Unfortunately, the dissenters are starting to all blend together into one giant Blob of Negativity in my mind. Like the unholy spawn of the Simpsons' Comic Book Guy and the Yellow Fear Monster or something.

I guess it could be worse, it could be Zero Hour II. Now that really would split the internet in half....

[Private America]

Try taking that attitude over to the Death Spiral thread on the Rumbles Board and see how long it lasts. :D

Do you have some personal experience with that or something?

[Shellhead]

Do you have some personal experience with that or something?

It's one of the biggest threads on these boards, and contains many posts against IC from a bunch of people who love to argue about what characters can beat each other up.

[ultramandingo]

so far all the cross over issues i read have the same plot - omac shows up - big fight - omac goes way. oh, and wonder woman killed some guy. i hope there saving the good stuff for crisis

[yeoman]

I'd consider myself fairly discriminating, and I'm enjoying HOUSE OF M while finding the IC build-up to be an extremely mixed bag.

Different strokes for different folks, and all of that.

Well, marvel's been doing house of M right. The tie in books add to the story, but don't seem necessary to the main book, while at the same time, the premise is simple enough that you don't need to get the main book to understand the story in the individual books. And only a couple of comics are having their regular run interrupted by House of M (Sadly, acadamy X is one of those though).

DC, meanwhile, is doing crap like having a four part crossover with major implications for a mini series take place between iss ues three and four of that series. Which is majorly uncool.

[Calamas]

Well, Loren, having read the next issue, this one shouldn't drive you off. The story was really about the JSA dealing with Atom Smasher's arrest and trial. Pencil in any other villain attacking the JSA and the story works the same. This is the least intrusive tie-in to date. If want to view the very thing you fear in JSA, try Superman #220.

[Loren]

Well, Loren, having read the next issue, this one shouldn't drive you off. The story was really about the JSA dealing with Atom Smasher's arrest and trial. Pencil in any other villain attacking the JSA and the story works the same. This is the least intrusive tie-in to date.

*spoiler warning* for anyone who hasn't read #76:

OK, I got the issue today and read it first. On the plus side, I enjoyed the normal JSA stuff enough that I was happy with the purchase and I'll still be buying the next issue. If nothing else, Al's "trial" gives me some great fodder for my blog (heh).

But I really disagree that this was not an intrusive tie-in. The story might work the same if the villain was replaced with another, but the presence of the fight at all was inordinately unnecessary and intrusive.

Just imagine the scene with another villain. Due to the nature of the fight, let's say Amazo. Atom Smasher's being led out of the courtroom when, suddenly and out of nowhere, Amazo attacks! There are several pages of the JSA members fighting Amazo, then Al stops him, and Amazo flies away.

Seen through that lens, it's a pretty darn pointless fight. And from beginning to end, it lasts nine pages. There's a page of OMAC scanning the guys, seven pages of actual fighting (including two splash pages), and a wrap-up page where OMAC escapes. That's 40% of the issue devoted to an unnecessary fight that exists solely for crossover purposes.

By comparison, only seven and a half pages are devoted to the circumstances surrounding Al's trial (including the setup, trial, the scene between Stargirl and Hunkel, walking out of the courtroom, and the three pages at the end).

Plus, there's another page with Hourman that apparently is effectively a DoV crossover, though I didn't realize that until I read an online review. Hopefully that page will make a little more sense after another issue or two. At least it has a little to do with an actual JSA plot (the missing Jakeem). And there's a page that looks to be little more than a missing scene from "Villains United," and which again, offers up some foreshadowing ("I have an interesting rumor circulating") that really better have some payoff in this title, and not somewhere else.

All that adds up to 11 pages of crossover material, and that's not including 3 more pages of fallout of "Countdown," which I'll excuse because of the personal nature of the scene. (However, it doesn't excuse Johns' portrayal of Fire. Compared to Giffen's take on Fire's grief in ICBINTJL a few months back, this was pitiful.) So a full half of the issue ended up being crossover material. And I really would've preferred if those 11 pages (or at least the 9 involving the fight) had been devoted to something a little more important to this title.

If half the issue isn't considered intrusive, I'm really dreading when the crossovers actually become intrusive.

[Calamas]

Well, I guess that’s a fair interpretation. But to me the battle is a part of this story, no matter who the villain is. In fact it plays into one Geoff Johns’ greatest strengths: he always has more going on than physical conflict during his fight scenes; the conflicts are also on an emotion, psychological, or philosophical level, whichever is appropriate. In the end it’s still about the JSA interacting with each other. It’s just the circumstance that changes after the OMAC attacks.

[ultramandingo]

plus the art was kinda stinky. they must give ross all the $$$$ for those groovey covers

[Peter]

Try taking that attitude over to the Death Spiral thread on the Rumbles Board and see how long it lasts. :D

I know. I think the use of the word "friendly" was a true "WTF?!?" moment, given the plot and circumstances of what happened in 'Identity Crisis'.


It's one of the biggest threads on these boards, and contains many posts against IC from a bunch of people who love to argue about what characters can beat each other up.

Rumbles bashing, yay! Haven't heard enough of that lately. And for the record, while most of us found IC offensively bad (there are other adjectives that were used, but I'm feeling charitable), it's merely a sympton, and not the cause, of all our complaints (the vast majority of which, again, are completely valid criticisms of the way DC is going about their business these days.

Yeo's brought up -- a number of times -- the way DC is interconnecting all their crossovers, which is what Loren was talking about above anyway).

[Shellhead]

Rumbles bashing, yay! Haven't heard enough of that lately. And for the record, while most of us found IC offensively bad (there are other adjectives that were used, but I'm feeling charitable), it's merely a sympton, and not the cause, of all our complaints (the vast majority of which, again, are completely valid criticisms of the way DC is going about their business these days.

Yeo's brought up -- a number of times -- the way DC is interconnecting all their crossovers, which is what Loren was talking about above anyway).

I'm not bashing the Rumbles board. When the topic interests me, I've been known to post long rambling analysis of match-ups there. On one occasion, I totally geeked out and did a detailed review of Spider-man's rogues gallery to see which villains had fought him at least four times, just so we could figure out who we were matching up against the Astonishing X-Men. And I've posted in that downward spiral thread, because I agree with the basic theme there.

[Private America]

Having lived through the whole Star Wars prequel trilogy online debate, I have about ZERO interest in yet another online discussion about how a company is or is not crapping all over their fans. I'm loving IC, and all the tie-ins, and I shouldn't have to apologize for that.

[Sk8maven]

It's one of the biggest threads on these boards, and contains many posts against IC from a bunch of people who love to argue about what characters can beat each other up.Not all of the participants ARE Rumblers. I'm not - I have never participated in a "Hoo'd Win?" thread and have no intention of ever doing so. But most of "us" agree that modern comics are going to pot, and most of us agree to a great extent on why.

Maven

[JeffreyWKramer]

Hawkman's a long-time JSA member too, and he's starring in the "Rann/Thanagar" book, if I'm not mistaken. But no month-after-month-after-month of Rann crossovers in JSA, or even in "Hawkman," for that matter.

Actually, as far as I can tell, Hawkman is appearing simultaneously in RANN/THANAGAR, JSA and the OMAC crossover "Sacrifice." Plus events in his own book, as best I can tell, don't appear to match up timeline-wise with any of the above. And his current JLA appearances also fit in there somewhere or another.

Tight continuity there. Hawkman has become DC's answer to Wolverine.

[K'Nort]

Seen through that lens, it's a pretty darn pointless fight. And from beginning to end, it lasts nine pages. There's a page of OMAC scanning the guys, seven pages of actual fighting (including two splash pages), and a wrap-up page where OMAC escapes. That's 40% of the issue devoted to an unnecessary fight that exists solely for crossover purposes.

Plus, there's another page with Hourman that apparently is effectively a DoV crossover, though I didn't realize that until I read an online review. Hopefully that page will make a little more sense after another issue or two. At least it has a little to do with an actual JSA plot (the missing Jakeem). And there's a page that looks to be little more than a missing scene from "Villains United," and which again, offers up some foreshadowing ("I have an interesting rumor circulating") that really better have some payoff in this title, and not somewhere else.

Actually, I'm reading all the crossovers, and I agree with you. I don't see where either of those bits helped anyone. They weren't relevant to the existing JSA storylines, and I don't feel they added anything the OMAC and DoV storylines. The Villians United bit actually contributed plot to that mini, at least, but it doesn't seem fair to make people pick up both books to get it.

I'm enjoying reading them all and I'm grateful to have the means. But I can see where it will frustrate other fans.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Actually, I'm reading all the crossovers, and I agree with you. I don't see where either of those bits helped anyone. They weren't relevant to the existing JSA storylines, and I don't feel they added anything the OMAC and DoV storylines. The Villians United bit actually contributed plot to that mini, at least, but it doesn't seem fair to make people pick up both books to get it.

I'm enjoying reading them all and I'm grateful to have the means. But I can see where it will frustrate other fans.


This is why I've dropped JSA for the duration. I didn't think much of anything could make me drop that book, but since the end of the Per Degaton storyline, I've found the INFINITE CRISIS teasers/crossover elements quite intrusive. Heck, even before that there was the issue which was essentially a IDENTITY CRISIS crossover (the autopsy one). I like unified settings, but the heavy crossovers go to far - and, some people aren't bothered by such things, but to me, it's particularly annoying if they're going to use the continuity as a sales tactic via crossovers but can't be bothered to make the timelines make sense.

[Forefinger]

I hate how the JSA issues are featuring characters like the Jean Loring Eclipso who I don't have a clue as to why they are there or doing what they are doing. IMO all comics shouldn't be written as though the readers are reading every other comic, JSA and DOV. They don't need a whole page of expository dialogue to explain things, but a sentence or two, "Jean became Eclipso because of....." "The Specter is nuts because..."

[Loren]

Heck, even before that there was the issue which was essentially a IDENTITY CRISIS crossover (the autopsy one).

Yep, that was a waste of $2.50. 22 pages of characters reacting to events from another series. Except for the 3-page Per Degaton epilogue (which was still pretty disposable), the issue could have been completely skipped by a JSA reader and nothing would've been missed. It might as well have been a one-shot JSA IC tie-in, kinda like the 'Our Worlds at War' books.

And it didn't even deliver on the one thing the solicit promised: "Doctor Mid-Nite and Mr. Terrific examine Sue Dibny's corpse in search of clues to the killer's identity, and they'll be shocked at what they find!" Did we learn *anything* about that? No. We just closed on Mid-Nite saying "My God. I know who killed Sue Dibny." Whoop-de-doo.

The only plus about this tie-in was that it was only one issue, and not a whole arc. And it gave me some fodder for a thing I wrote on Superman's speedy hearing.

It's also aggravating because Johns has proven he can do crossovers right. His "Last Laugh" tie-in issue was about as good as a crossover issue can be. What's happened?

As for #76, I rather like what the Shrew Review (http://shrewreview.blogspot.com/2005/08/jsa-76.html) had to say:

Just out of curiosity, when did JSA stop actually being about the JSA? What we got here was an advertisement for OMAC Project and Villains United all wrapped up in a "plot" that was merely Geoff Johns ripping himself off...

The members of the JSA don't have their own adventures anymore -- they are dragged along on everyone else's, used wantonly to fill some other book's plot holes, and graced with endless guest appearances by characters whose arcs get more time than anything the JSA gets to do.

[Loren]

Tight continuity there. Hawkman has become DC's answer to Wolverine.

Someone and I once brainstormed an explanation for Wolverine's omnipresence in the MU. Maybe it's not an original idea, but I like it.

Given all the fights Wolverine has been in over the years, he's presumbly been hurt pretty bad. Back when he was missing his adamantium, he could've lost an arm or a hand in battle. But he still has a healing factor, so he regrows the limb.

But the severed part ends up healing too, and grows a separate Wolverine. Now assume this has happened a few times, and there could easily be half a dozen Wolverines running around the Marvel Universe. Maybe they all know it, and have reunions off-panel. But it certainly solves the problem of him being on multiple X-teams.

[jemini169]

Ironically, I have taken a similar stance with Marvel's House of M. I am not even vaguely interested and might give it all up as a result.

[Private America]

I think what it ultimately boils down to is:

if you like IC, and you like JSA, you won't mind the crossovers (same goes for the Ident. Crisis tie-in).

I completely understand where you are coming from, because as a fan of JMS on Amazing Spider-Man, but as a non-fan of New Avengers, I've been disappointed that the latest issues of ASM deal with the New Avengers silliness.

So, I just dropped the book and will pick it up again when it's returned to "normal."

[Lex]

As for #76, I rather like what the Shrew Review (http://shrewreview.blogspot.com/2005/08/jsa-76.html) had to say:

Just out of curiosity, when did JSA stop actually being about the JSA? What we got here was an advertisement for OMAC Project and Villains United all wrapped up in a "plot" that was merely Geoff Johns ripping himself off...

The members of the JSA don't have their own adventures anymore -- they are dragged along on everyone else's, used wantonly to fill some other book's plot holes, and graced with endless guest appearances by characters whose arcs get more time than anything the JSA gets to do.

That has been my exact complaint with all these Identity/Infinite Crisis tie-ins. Ongoing books like JSA, Green Arrow, Teen Titans, Wonder Woman and all the Superman books have stopped telling their own unique stories and are telling parts of someone else's story. That's why I complained about the Dr. Light Titans arc and JSA's DoV arc. Why couldn't we have gotten a new Roulette story or an old JSA foe that hasn't shown up in this book yet.

Instead we get 3 extra DoV issues, an extra OMAC issue, a tie-in to Return of Donna Troy and then more DoV stuff... followed by, I imagine, tie-ins to the main Infinite Crisis series.

As much as I love JSA, this is making me want to drop the book until One Year Later (where, I hope, the perpetual tie-ins will end).

[Gingold]

JSA always seemed to me to one of those books that was so steeped in continuity and the whole shared universe concept that by its nature was going to tie into to anything major going on in the DCU. It's also being the mastermind behind Infinite Crisis. So it's really not that surprising. I guess I can see how it might be off-putting, but it doesn't really bother me .

[Private America]

Ongoing books like JSA, Green Arrow, Teen Titans, Wonder Woman and all the Superman books have stopped telling their own unique stories and are telling parts of someone else's story. That's why I complained about the Dr. Light Titans arc and JSA's DoV arc. Why couldn't we have gotten a new Roulette story or an old JSA foe that hasn't shown up in this book yet.

Except the heroes featured in these books ARE part of a larger universe, which IS going through major, foundational changes right now. It's almost silly to think that the larger story WOULDN'T impact the individual titles.

Again, if you like Infinite Crisis, you probably don't mind. If you don't like it, it bugs you. But it makes complete sense for DC editorial to be tying all these books together.

[Sk8maven]

Again, if you like Infinite Crisis, you probably don't mind. If you don't like it, it bugs you. But it makes complete sense for DC editorial to be tying all these books together.It makes complete $$$$$$$$$$$$$en$$$$$$$$$$$$$$e, you mean.

They're hoping to get everyone who buys even ONE DCU book to buy ALL of their books so as to "know what's going on". Some of us CAN'T do that (things like food and housing are more important). Some of us WON'T.

For those people, the only real solution is to dump DC until the dust settles and things return to "normal" - IF they ever do again.

If not, that's more money that can be diverted to essential expenses.

Maven

[Private America]

It makes complete $$$$$$$$$$$$$en$$$$$$$$$$$$$$e, you mean.

They're hoping to get everyone who buys even ONE DCU book to buy ALL of their books so as to "know what's going on". Some of us CAN'T do that (things like food and housing are more important). Some of us WON'T.

For those people, the only real solution is to dump DC until the dust settles and things return to "normal" - IF they ever do again.

If not, that's more money that can be diverted to essential expenses.

Maven

The question isn't whether DC wants to make money off Infinite Crisis. Of course they do.

The question is: is Infinite Crisis worth reading? If it is, you can buy the books. If not, you don't.

And to top it all off, you can find out what's happening in all the IC stuff for free on the DC website.

[Jack Tango]

Crossovers bug me.

Crossover storylines start in issue #1 of Shocking Mini-Series Stories, then to #293 of Foreverman, part three in Foreverboy & the Upstarts #36, then to issue #12 of Monkeygirl: The Primal Primate, and ending in issue #2 of Shocking Mini-Series Stories; after that, we get our epilogue in The Freaktastic Fun Guy the Fungi #45.

Each issue is integral to the story as each issue tells a component of the story. If you don't read those books then your serialized storytelling within the title becomes disjointed.

Tie-Ins, however, are a different beast.

Handle them right, and the tie-in plays off an element of the story of, let's say, Magic Must Die #1, where Ghostman is killing all magical beings with the help of Evilgirl. Then it dovetails into an issue of Oldtime Superteam with Young People #73.

Luckilly, Magic Must Die #2 through #6 have nothing to do with the storyline going on in O.S.Y.P.

A self-contained story picking up on a plot element from another story is not bad writing, or evil marketing, but an act of creative cohesiveness.

If you read both titles, all's better for you! If you only read one, then guess what: You still get a complete story.

It's easy to be negative about something because it has a corporately justified LOOK AT THIS, I'M A TIE-IN BOOK logo on the front, but when you measure the story up on it's own merits, it still stands whether that little logo is there.

To be honest, I would definitely be upset if the things happening in one book were essential to understanding another, but when that's not the case it's absolutely no skin off my back.

To each their own, however.

[jadrax]

Tight continuity there. Hawkman has become DC's answer to Wolverine.
It all ties in, the Crisis in Infinate Crisis is an Infinate number of Hawkmen. Honest.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It all ties in, the Crisis in Infinate Crisis is an Infinate number of Hawkmen. Honest.

We already went through that in ZERO HOUR.

[Sk8maven]

To be honest, I would definitely be upset if the things happening in one book were essential to understanding another, but when that's not the case it's absolutely no skin off my back.What about situations where the crossover elements come STOMPING into your regular reading, squash whatever storylines were previously ongoing, and continue to stomp progressively harder for three more issues - with the threat of at least four more stompings before they finally go away? And you wouldn't understand what was stomping all over your favorite zine if you didn't at least read spoilers?

That's what's really bugging the [bleep!] out of ME, and why I won't pick up another issue of JSA until the stampede of marauding plot elephants is over.

Maevn

[K'Nort]

It's easy to be negative about something because it has a corporately justified LOOK AT THIS, I'M A TIE-IN BOOK logo on the front, but when you measure the story up on it's own merits, it still stands whether that little logo is there.

To be honest, I would definitely be upset if the things happening in one book were essential to understanding another, but when that's not the case it's absolutely no skin off my back.

I think the problem is that you're paying $3 for 22 pages. So sparing even a few pages for a tie-in that really adds nothing to the book you're interested in is a lot.

[Calamas]

. . . and why I won't pick up another issue of JSA until the stampede of marauding plot elephants is over.

Maevn
Good. Not that I agree with your complaint--so far I think there is enough JSA in JSA to justify the crossover--but I wholely support your action. We as fans have to get over our need for complete runs. Please, drop everything with which you’re not happy. If there is enough of us, a message might get through.

[Shellhead]

I don't reflexively hate crossovers. It just so happens that I hate all current DC crossovers except for Seven Soldiers, which is nicely contained to the relevant minis. And while I haven't enjoyed a Marvel crossover in years, they had the first great one, the Avengers-Defenders War.

For now, I'm dropping JSA, and avoiding all other mainstream DC titles until the whole Infinite mess plays out. Fortunately, Seven Soldiers, Legion and the Vertigo line are not affected by the Crisis.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I think this Crisis is the best thing happening (Seven Soldiers is connected :D ) and if you guys don't like it, fine.

But if you are going to shove your rants down peoples throats, then that is a problem (I'm looking at your direction, Maven :mad: )

Frankly, I hope IC becomes the greatest crossover ever, because if it does then you guys (and gals) could shut your mouths and get the softcover version (or hardcover).

If IC sucks, then whatever, roll with the punches b**ches, that's what gets you through life. ;)


Oh yeah, have you people thought of reading it instead of buying it if you don't like it? That's what I'm doing with House of M!

[glennsim]

Good. Not that I agree with your complaint--so far I think there is enough JSA in JSA to justify the crossover--but I wholely support your action. We as fans have to get over our need for complete runs. Please, drop everything with which you’re not happy. If there is enough of us, a message might get through.

While you're at it, write them a letter telling them that you've done so.

If 5000 people drop the book due to the crossover, but 4000 people pick it up due to the crossover, then DC doesn't know that 5000 people left - they just know that 1000 left.

[Sk8maven]

But if you are going to shove your rants down peoples throats, then that is a problemYou MIGHT look at the title of the thread, which OUGHT to tell you that it's likely to be full of complainers. I'm far from the only one with profound reservations about this whole "Infinite Crisis" megillah. And I REALLY resent the way it has stomped all over "JSA" and is apparently going to keep on stomping.

I was reading "JSA" for the JSA - you know, the characters the zine is supposed to be about? NOT Spectre & Eclipso on the rampage followed by OMACs followed by Rann/Thanagar War followed by etc. followed by Infinite Crisis.

They didn't get this badly treated during "Crisis on Infinite Earths" - and they didn't get jobbed this hard, either (Wildcat possibly excepted).

Maven

[marshal99]

If anything , the crisis crossover to almost practically all DCU titles for a 12 month period which i imagine is worse than this current saga.

[Mr. Jixx]

Don't forget, Mave, that Hawkman got his butt handed to him pretty good in COIE, along with Mr. Grant. :)

[Sk8maven]

Don't forget, Mave, that Hawkman got his butt handed to him pretty good in COIE, along with Mr. Grant. :)He got better faster, though. Poor old Teddy-cat had to wait till they were all sucked into Ragnarok. :p

Maven

[Mr. Jixx]

True enough.

[Peter]

Frankly, I hope IC becomes the greatest crossover ever, because if it does then you guys (and gals) could shut your mouths and get the softcover version (or hardcover).

If IC sucks, then whatever, roll with the punches b**ches, that's what gets you through life.

The thing is, DC has been telling us for the last twenty years that every single Big Summer Crossover is going to be as world-shattering and amazing as the original Crisis, and they've been right pretty much never (with exceptions to Final Night and 1,000,000).

I think we're allowed to be skeptical.

I'm still betting money on the Anti-Monitor showing up, personally.

[Loren]

Well, according to the updated 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in list (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41469), DC has heard my complaints and reacted! JSA is no longer subject to eight consecutive issues of 'Day of Vengeance' tie-ins.

Of course, this really comes as no surprise to anyone who actually read the last issue. Because DC isn't letting JSA stand alone again; it's just changed what its issues are tied in to.

So here's the JSA breakdown now:

#73 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#74 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#75 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#76 - 'The OMAC Project' tie-in
#77 - 'Rann/Thanagar War' tie-in
#79 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in
#80 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in
#81 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in

Will #82 and #83 stand alone? We can only wait and see. But the one-year jump will take place between #83 (in February) and 84 (in March).

[Shellhead]

Well, according to the updated 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in list (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41469), DC has heard my complaints and reacted! JSA is no longer subject to eight consecutive issues of 'Day of Vengeance' tie-ins.

Of course, this really comes as no surprise to anyone who actually read the last issue. Because DC isn't letting JSA stand alone again; it's just changed what its issues are tied in to.

So here's the JSA breakdown now:

#73 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#74 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#75 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#76 - 'The OMAC Project' tie-in
#77 - 'Rann/Thanagar War' tie-in
#79 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in
#80 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in
#81 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in

Will #82 and #83 stand alone? We can only wait and see. But the one-year jump will take place between #83 (in February) and 84 (in March).


Thanks for the update. I now plan on giving issue #84 a try. Hopefully missing 7 issues in my run won't leave me in the dark.

[ultramandingo]

Well, according to the updated 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in list (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41469), DC has heard my complaints and reacted! JSA is no longer subject to eight consecutive issues of 'Day of Vengeance' tie-ins.

Of course, this really comes as no surprise to anyone who actually read the last issue. Because DC isn't letting JSA stand alone again; it's just changed what its issues are tied in to.

So here's the JSA breakdown now:

#73 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#74 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#75 - 'Day of Vengeance' tie-in
#76 - 'The OMAC Project' tie-in
#77 - 'Rann/Thanagar War' tie-in
#79 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in
#80 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in
#81 - 'Infinite Crisis' tie-in

Will #82 and #83 stand alone? We can only wait and see. But the one-year jump will take place between #83 (in February) and 84 (in March).
ugh. wake me when its over...oh who am i kidding. ill end up getting em all . what a maroon

[Sk8maven]

Somebody tell me when "JSA" goes back to being about THE JSA and not about everything else in the whole frackin' DCU EXCEPT the JSA.

Maven

[Guts/Batman]

I'm one of the people who will stick with JSA.

I don't mind the tie ins (like I have said on other threads) because I do get the 4 mini series.

[grendel824]

I'm reading it and not really bothering with the tie-ins at the moment (I'm getting them, I just haven't read them) and it's been no trouble at all. Looks like a bunch of attention-starved whinebabies to me. "Ooh! Look at me - I'm making a "stand" and not buying issues of a series I claim to like while secretly buying and reading all of them!" :rolleyes:

[jadrax]

I like tie-ins, there I have said it, it's me, they do all the tie-ins for me.

I mean, its the JSA, if any book should be tied in to whats going on in the DCU right now its this one, All the big magic heavy hitters are members, all the big Hawkpeople are members, all the big heros are family. Even more than JLA, JSA is at the heart of the DCU, and i think the title should always reflect it.

[Sk8maven]

I mean, its the JSA, if any book should be tied in to whats going on in the DCU right now its this one, All the big magic heavy hitters are members, all the big Hawkpeople are members, all the big heros are family. Even more than JLA, JSA is at the heart of the DCU, and i think the title should always reflect it.Yeah, but the trouble is that since the JSA are NOT perceived as the Ultimate Big Guns that they really are, they are almost invariably miswritten for the villain(s) to mop the floor with them in every major crossover.

They did a little bit better in COIE, but still Alan got sidelined off with the magic-users, Hawkman/Carter got crisped by Dr. Phosphorus, and Wildcat got "permanently" crippled (this lasted until "Last Days of the JSA"). AND several members (Superman/Kal-L, Wonder Woman-2, Batman-2, Robin-2, Huntress/Helena Wayne) got retroactively erased from EVER having existed. Kal-L and WW-2 got to live "happily ever after" in separate "pocket dimensions" no longer accessible from or to the new unified DCU - the rest were JUST erased and forgotten.

The one time they got to "save the day" was in Armageddon: Inferno, and unfortunately the writing and art were so horrible that almost no one has read that crossover.

Maven

[glennsim]

Since I enjoy the "shared world" elements of the DCU titles, I'm in favor of the tie-ins.

Now, of course, I want them handled WELL, which isn't always the case..."

My new recommended plan for DC for future events:

Do the mini-series.

If the mini-series is not popular or well-received, then don't plan to have tie-ins to it.

If the mini-series is popular and well-recieved, then give the writers a full year to reference the events of the mini-series. After all, if you like OMAC, and are interested in buying a tie-in to it, it doesn't matter if it comes out at the same time or a year later - you're going to pick it up (aren't you?).

[Babylon23]

I don't really see a problem with the JSA begin affected by the major events taking place in the DCU. It's already become apparent that Power Girl is a major player in IC. I'm sure that the rest of the team will be involved as well, especially with Johns writing both JSA and IC.

I don't think the Day of Vengeance tie-in with Black Vengeance distracted attention from the JSA at all. The focus of the story was still Atom-Smasher and his relationship to the team and to Black Adam. Also, the crossover with Rann/Thanagar makes sense, since Hawkman and Hawkgirl are both members of the JSA.

The OMAC issue wasn't as well handled, but it still followed through on the aftermath of Black Vengeance.

[Peter]

Looks like a bunch of attention-starved whinebabies to me. "Ooh! Look at me - I'm making a "stand" and not buying issues of a series I claim to like while secretly buying and reading all of them!" :rolleyes:

Thanks for the insult.

You know -- given that comics used to sell a hundreds time better -- some people actually do stop buying. I think the problem is people such as yourself, who actually are the ones who can't stop buying, it's just easier for you to accuse everybody else of doing such a thing.

And given how the internet works -- how you can scan an entire 22 pages and share the story that way -- you can keep up to date, keep a valid opinion/viewpoint on the most current stuff and not have to spend a single cent. Lord knows that's what I do.

But hey, don't mind me using logic or civillity or anything. Keep taking shots at everybody while reminding us how superior and clever you are in comparison.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Thanks for the update. I now plan on giving issue #84 a try. Hopefully missing 7 issues in my run won't leave me in the dark.

You're not missing a heck of a lot. Since I refuse to buy most of the mini-series (although I gave Day of Vengeance a whirl upon a recommendation. Shouldn't have.), it does make things a bit confusing when it intrudes upon JSA. But, there's enough there to keep me buying JSA.

I'm curious as to where all this Identity Crisis/Countdown/OMAC silliness is going to lead, but not curious enough to throw away my money on it. I figure it will be the same as most of the "events" at DC over the years: lots of crossovers and pronouncements about how "everything's different now" but in the end, not much long-term effect.

It's actually kind of fun to go back and read some of these "event" mini-series now. Read Zero Hour. That is, if you can stop yourself from laughing. It truly sucks. It's embarrassingly bad. And, all the "big changes" from Zero Hour? Save for the deaths of Atom I and Dr. Mid-nite I, nonexistent today.