IC DC Death.

[celluloid_droid]

I have a feeling of who it is, and I want to say, but I'm not sure if I should open my mouth about it, if others would be willing to throw in theories, I would like to talk about mine.

[Napolean Blownapart]

My theory is Wonder Woman. They've demonized her in the eyes of the pacificts and they keep saying that Donna Troy has an important role to play. Maybe replacing her mentor will be that role. I also think it will be her because she seems to be getting a lot of attention and being written extraordinarily well, a bad omen for characters this close to a crisis. My third reason I think it will be her is process of elimination, Batman will be replaced by Dick (if the rumor is to be believed), Superman is impossible to be replaced, Flash is too "been there, done that" and Kid Flash is also new at being Kid Flash, GL well no one would expect Hal to bite it now (but that would be awesome), and everyone else would be to inconsequential to even matter in an even like this.

[celluloid_droid]

ok, yeah, that's what I was going to say, I saw a few other people saying it too after I put up this thread. I think Wonder Woman's death will occur early on in the series, and not the end, maybe like, issue 2.
How long do you think Dick will be Batman? I can only see them doing that for about a year or two.

[Napolean Blownapart]

More than 6 issues and DC will have really shot themselves in the foot with the Dick/Batman thing. Knightfall sucked, and there's no way I'm sticking around for Dick/Bats more than 6 issues. I'll drop Wonder Woman like a hot potato when they replace her (for the third time). I like DC but Wally replacing Barry was the exception, not the rule, they need to realize this.

[celluloid_droid]

Maybe they'll pull a fast one and the major character will be like, Detective Chimp.

[xenogogue]

Well i think it's Bats. With Dick ready to assume the mantle and Nightwing not being cancelled allowing Tim Drake to ascend aswell. And maybe there was some foreshadowing in the Alex Ross cover that depicted Bats holding the Beetle. Everyone else was in the background, those two in the foreground, one leading to the other. But i could be looking too much into it.

Let's also remember the Spectre is hostless. Bruce could fill that roll maintaining a presence. The soon to be Batman Confidential would also allow for Bruce Wayne bat tales. Afterall, no one thought they'd kill off Superman.

Would DC kill off Wonder Woman with her first movie on the horizon??

[kingdom2000]

Don't forget Batman Begins. A franchise "technically" is reborn. But at the glacier pace WB works at, the sequel is about five years away so the idea of a Bat death, replacement, return could happen. But doubt it. Supes and Bats ARE DC. Without those two, there really isn't a DC. As for WW, they killed her mom in Our Worlds at War so don't see them following that up so quickly, especially when one of the major themes of the story is to destroy the trinity. Makes it all mute if kill one of em.

Also the problem is how do you define a major character? We define it as the A-List which is basically the big 7, but DC defines it as any character used more then once in the last few years. Technically The Ray could be called a major character. But if assuming A-List, Supes, Bats, WW is out for above. GA and GL is out cause just came back from the dead. Flash out because its a repeat. Aquaman already had his death arch from Out Worlds at War, so really that only leaves Martian Manhunter. Again assuming A-List.

[noodleboy]

I think it will be Captain Marvel. Just a hunch, big enough to justify A-List, but really he won't be too taxing since he doesn't even have his own book. Plus it gives a little validity to the "Killing off JLA/JLE Members" theory, since

Sue Dibney, Blue Beetle & Max Lord have been killed off so far

Just a guess.

[Huh?]

Green Arrow in my opinion - no real reason other than he is major enough and has plenty of replacement candidates. Batman has replacements also, but that character is waaaay to big for DC to part with right now.

[kelvingreen]

Afterall, no one thought they'd kill off Superman.
But it was only for about five minutes, so I doubt it counts. ;)

I'm more interested in seeing how they get Wayne into Arkham. I suspect it's going to be something really grim and crappy like the JLA putting him in there because he's too dangerous now he knows that they mind-wiped him. I doubt he'll turn villainous or anything (although who knows?), but he'll threaten to go public or try to take them down for the greater good or something like that, and they'll round him up and stick him in the loony bin.

Superman and WW (if she's alive) will okay it, but not be happy about it at all.

[Huh?]

But it was only for about five minutes, so I doubt it counts. ;)

I'm more interested in seeing how they get Wayne into Arkham. I suspect it's going to be something really grim and crappy like the JLA putting him in there because he's too dangerous now he knows that they mind-wiped him. I doubt he'll turn villainous or anything (although who knows?), but he'll threaten to go public or try to take them down for the greater good or something like that, and they'll round him up and stick him in the loony bin.

Superman and WW (if she's alive) will okay it, but not be happy about it at all.I want to see how they keep him in Arkham. That place is the most porous (sp?) prison imaginable.

[MWGallaher]

My wager is on Dick Grayson. He's as major a character as Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman in the genreal public's perception. I know it doesn't exactly jibe with the other rumors about IC consequences, but the odds are that those are not all entirely correct anyway. Dick taking over as Batman? It's been done; I can't believe they'd make a major IC payoff something as familiar and obvious as that.
What have they got to lose by killing Dick Grayson? Well, lots of the general public think they already killed him off a few years ago in the publicized phone-in stunt, so in some sense they owe it. Does he have devoted fans? Yep, and from what I make of the die-hard Nightwing fans, they'll be secretly orgasmic over their hero dying. That whole romantic tragedy thing, y'know as performed by James Dean in the role of Elvis.
I'm thinking Batman and Detective will follow Bruce Wayne in Arkham, Batman Confidential will be pre-Crisis, Nightwing and Robin will be cancelled, with Nightwing dead (as opposed to filling in the Batsuit), and the miniseries will be about Tim Drake moving on from his Robin role, maybe not as a new Nightwing but as an independent operator with a different codename.

[ScottDMSimmons]

If they did kill Wonder Woman, it would have too many Flash vibes.

Sees threat to love/friend.
Snaps neck of enemy.
Goes to jail/court.
Goes into exile.
Dies in Crisis.

Sound familiar to fans of Barry Allen?

--Scott

[kelvingreen]

I'm thinking Batman and Detective will follow Bruce Wayne in Arkham, Batman Confidential will be pre-Crisis, Nightwing and Robin will be cancelled, with Nightwing dead (as opposed to filling in the Batsuit), and the miniseries will be about Tim Drake moving on from his Robin role, maybe not as a new Nightwing but as an independent operator with a different codename.
Rich says Nightwing is ongoing, at least for the duration of the character's (SPOILER)tenure as Batman(END SPOILER), which should be concurrent with 52.

[MWGallaher]

And that, Kelvin, I'm having a hard time believing. Dick Grayson starring in (presumably) Batman, Detective, and Nightwing--three books a month, maintaining two different costumed identities!? I think Rich has this one wrong. Grayson dies, that drives Batman nuts and into Arkham. Unknown character takes over the batsuit, mystery to be played out over the year, Nightwing & Robin cancelled, Tim Drake graduates to new identity in miniseries.

Or not. I'm just guessing. But it seems to me that the end of Dick Grayson would be a bigger deal than an overdose of Dick Grayson.

[PatrickG]

WW I could buy but...

Well, my money is on The Atom.

Dan Didio has said that Ray Palmer is out for the foreseeable future.

Look at it this way...

Ray Palmer can go out in a blaze like Barry. (I also think this may wrap up the Jean-as-Eclipso plot.)

And with Atom-Smasher as something of an anti-hero, it opens up the Atom legacy for Grant Emerson aka Damage -- biological son of the original Atom.

I expect he's the star of the new Atom book.

He's one of those types who I think DC would LIKE to do more with but he needs a facelift to get the fan enthusiasm up.

And I think we're heading for a world where -- outside the big seven icons -- the heroes are all twentysomethings.

It makes Superman and Batman's aging easier if there are essentially a few heroes (like Hal) who are the same age and then everyone else is nebulously a few years younger.

I wouldn't be stunned if Jay Garrick doesn't reclaim the Flash mantle while Wally gets to retire, however. Didio allegedly wants to shake up Flash but doesn't want Barry back. I suspect Bart or Jay will be left with the full mantle although it would be silly to kill Wally at this point to get there. So I suspect Wally will lose his powers and/or retire and that Bart or Jay will be left as Flash. It defies the previous paradigm but there's really no reason why "The Flash" has to be someone over eighteen.

[ScottDMSimmons]

How about this?
I mentioned this before within the INFINITE CRISIS speculation thread.
It fits the major character, successor criteria.

The Joker (old Red Hood) dies.

Jason Todd (new Red Hood) becomes the Joker.

--Scott

[Huh?]

How about this?
I mentioned this before within the INFINITE CRISIS speculation thread.
It fits the major character, successor criteria.

The Joker (old Red Hood) dies.

Jason Todd (new Red Hood) becomes the Joker.

--ScottThat is a very cool idea, but how would he become the new Joker? The same way?

[sixstringguild]

I'm thinking it's going to be the Flash-Wally West, but he'll be replaced by Barry Allen. I hope I'm wrong.

[riotgear]

I'm thinking it's going to be the Flash-Wally West, but he'll be replaced by Barry Allen. I hope I'm wrong.

The only problem is that it was said that the protege would move up, replacing the fallen hero. Nightwing is an older brother to Robin III, not as much a formal mentor. I, as well, think it will be Donna Troy replacing Diana.

[PatrickG]

Plus, Didio has been VERY hardcore about not bringing Barry back.

Personally, I'm all for everybody coming back.

I think you're setting yourself up as a putz if you expect or demand permanent consequences in super-hero comics.

But Didio's against it.

Or he's been lying very consistently.

If you ask me, I think his plans re: Barry would more likely involve cutting the character off further from timelost guest appearances and the like.

I like that setup personally. It allowed things to move on, gave him a meaningful death
and still allows Barry a continuing role in the legacy.

Though now that I think of it, it might be interesting if they used Barry's backup plan (as concocted by Marv Wolfman) on Wally. Wally dies but there's unaccounted for time between "now" and his death. So he gets to be Flash KNOWING that at some point, he has to resume whatever it is he was doing or the universe dies. Also makes him more important.

[kelvingreen]

How about this?
I mentioned this before within the INFINITE CRISIS speculation thread.
It fits the major character, successor criteria.

The Joker (old Red Hood) dies.

Jason Todd (new Red Hood) becomes the Joker.

Isn't that what happens in the Batman Beyond movie? And DK2?

[tricksterpup]

Oh wouldn't be a great kick in the nuts if it was Hal Jordon who dies and is replaced by Kyle again. :rolleyes:

[Matches Malone]

Deathstroke, replaced by Rose Wilson.

What? Rich didn't say it was a *hero*.

[tricksterpup]

Actually could it Be Captain Marvel who dies and then is replaced by Adam Teth, the Black Adam?

[celluloid_droid]

I'm still thinking Wonder Woman, I don't know how gutsy of a death they are going to do, because even though Wonder Woman is part of the big three, she is definitely the least popular, what, with only one book compared to the plethora of titles that Batman and Superman have. They will kill her off and replace her with Donna Troy because it will be a big death, and one that will hopefully bring sales back up with a new ongoing. A big new number one that they can sell.

[MacQuarrie]

It can't be Wonder Woman or Batman if the change is to be permanent. DC doesn't own either character outright and the licensing deals would prohibit such a major change, I believe. If DC changes Wonder Woman or Batman in a significant enough way, I believe the Moulston and Kane estates would have cause to cancel their contracts and shop the characters to other publishers. I doubt that DC really wants to jump into a long and expensive lawsuit at a time when courts may tend (following the music industry as precedent) to favor returning intellectual property to the creators.

Or DC may think that they can kill off the Bruce Wayne, Princess Diana and Ted Kord versions of their licensed properties and replace them with other characters of their own devising and cut the licensors out of future earnings, much the way Marvel tried (unsuccessfully as it turned out) to turn Cable and Deadpool into replacement characters in order to cut off Rob Liefeld's financial participation. In which case, expect the new "Blue Beetle," "Wonder Woman," and/or "Batman" to have a new, trademarkable superhero name.

[Expletive Deleted]

I don't know about Batman, but DC bought Wonder Woman outright a couple of years back.

Brian mentioned it in one of his "Urban Legends" posts at Comics Should Be Good (http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2005/06/comic-book-urban-legend-revealed-1.html).

[bert]

Hmmm. . .

today's tidbit about Wondy re-starting as issue #1?

Either complete confirmation that Diana is toast, or DC knows the rumors, and is planting info to snooker folks.

[arch2ngel]

I've honestly been wondering about the whole "Bruce Wayne in Arkham, Nightwing takes over as Batman" thing. I don't KNOW what's going to happen, but I've got a few theories:

It's been mentioned that Dick Grayson in Batman, Detective, and Nightwing would be too much. Who ever said that he would still be Nightwing? We've got two posabilities (and possibly more): Robin and the Red Hood. I personally like the idea of the Red Hood taking over as Nightwing - fits with the order of the Robins - Dick, the first Robin, becomes Batman. Jason, the second Robin, becomes Nightwing. And Tim, the third Robin, stays Robin. Of course, there's nothing saying that Jason won't take over being Batman himself - he's as much as said he wants to! ("I'm going to show you how you should be doing this." - or however he said it, I'm paraphrasing.)

Of course, they could be seeding the idea of Nightwing taking over as Batman so as to throw everyone off the scent that it IS him who dies (and Robin becomes Nightwing - because I DO see Nightwing as one of Robin's mentors - Tim always said that he doesn't want to be Batman, he wants to be Robin. Period. He wants to be DICK GRAYSON, or who Dick Grayson was. And you can see that in their interactions...)

Still, I kinda have to agree that bringing Donna back now, saying how important she's going to be, and putting such a character emphasis on Diana (and especially in such a way that's driving her away from the rest of the hero community with the whole "no killing" thing.) And they said that "One Year Later" Wonder Woman is going to be much more of the Amazon Warrior - kinda describes where Donna is when they bring her back...

Anyway, you've all provided lots of food for thought. Thanks!

[JeffreyWKramer]

Potentials:
Dick taking over as Batman, with or without Tim becoming Nightwing
Donna or Cassie taking over as Wonder Woman
Garth taking over as Aquaman
Bart taking over as Flash
Superboy taking over as Superman
Connor taking over as Green Arrow (though Ollie was never really Connor's mentor)
Kyle taking over for Hal again (also not a mentorship relationship)

Any others?

I don't like this whole idea at all, personally, but if they're gonna do it, I wouldn't particulary mind Garth replacing Aquaman. It's probably also the one (along with Connor -->GA) which would cause DC fewer problems with licensing.

[Zeta]

Ray Palmer can go out in a blaze like Barry. (I also think this may wrap up the Jean-as-Eclipso plot.)

And with Atom-Smasher as something of an anti-hero, it opens up the Atom legacy for Grant Emerson aka Damage -- biological son of the original Atom.

I expect he's the star of the new Atom book.

He's one of those types who I think DC would LIKE to do more with but he needs a facelift to get the fan enthusiasm up.

I like this idea a lot. I think both the Atom character and Grant, and putting them together could make for a good formula.

[outlander78]

Potentials:
Dick taking over as Batman, with or without Tim becoming Nightwing
Donna or Cassie taking over as Wonder Woman
Garth taking over as Aquaman
Bart taking over as Flash
Superboy taking over as Superman
Connor taking over as Green Arrow (though Ollie was never really Connor's mentor)
Kyle taking over for Hal again (also not a mentorship relationship)



Not attacking Jeffrey at all.

My question is, do any of these ideas appeal to ANYONE?

[CaptMagellan]

Any others?


Ollie AND Connor sacrifice themselves, leaving Roy to take over as Red (or Green) Arrow.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Ollie AND Connor sacrifice themselves, leaving Roy to take over as Red (or Green) Arrow.


Ah, good thinking, there.

Not good *idea*, mind you - I don't like this whole idea at all - but good thinking.

[CaptMagellan]

Not good *idea*, mind you - I don't like this whole idea at all

Me neither. The idea of an icon dying to be replaced by a sidekick in another 'crisis' is such a bad gimmick.

Gee maybe this time around we can have Power Girl (who now realizes she shouldn't even exist in the DCU) sacrifice herself against whoever the big baddie will be. There can be another retro cover by Perez with Supes holding Karen's body crying. :rolleyes:

[Matches Malone]

Hmmm. . .

today's tidbit about Wondy re-starting as issue #1?

Either complete confirmation that Diana is toast, or DC knows the rumors, and is planting info to snooker folks.

From Greg Rucka, via his message board:

"It's Diana. It will ALWAYS be Diana. Diana IS Wonder Woman.

Really, it's as simple as that. Marston created Wonder Woman, Diana, princess of the Amazons. End of story. "

[powergirl]

night wing is a throwaway character in the dcu.

if the original robin, dick grayson dies.. it will make headlines without having to kill off a significant main character... just his alter ego...

[JeffreyWKramer]

From Greg Rucka, via his message board:

"It's Diana. It will ALWAYS be Diana. Diana IS Wonder Woman.

Really, it's as simple as that. Marston created Wonder Woman, Diana, princess of the Amazons. End of story. "


That's good news. Hope it turns out to be the straight shit.

[bert]

From Greg Rucka, via his message board:

"It's Diana. It will ALWAYS be Diana. Diana IS Wonder Woman.

Really, it's as simple as that. Marston created Wonder Woman, Diana, princess of the Amazons. End of story. "


well. .as I said, it's either confirmation, or DC planting false info to raise some excitement from the internet.

personally?. . . I still think it's Diana, and Rucka's comment is to draw eyes away from it. . . but ya never know.

I mean DC DID change who Extant was at the last minute due to folks figuring it out. . so maybe it won't be Diana now. . .but it cerainly passes the "smell" test that it would be her -- especially w/ the killing of Max.

[PatrickG]

Donna is Diana minus baggage, keep in mind.

They can very easily pull a Spider-Clone here.

[Joe Grendel]

I mean DC DID change who Extant was at the last minute due to folks figuring it out. .
Aren't you thinking of (the urban legend surrounding) Monarch?

[Joe Grendel]

Donna is Diana minus baggage, keep in mind.
No, Diana is Donna minus baggage. Diana has no baggage. Donna is nothing but, at this point.

[bfrank]

totally agree with that....I like Donna more, but she's got way more bagage than Diana...

as for who's missing on the list above:

Captain Marvel - replaced by Mary (best choice) or Freddy (he'd finally have a decent name)...

[Joe Grendel]

Yeah, Donna's infinitely more likeable, but her background now resembles a first-tier X-Man's.

[powergirl]

power girl to be replaced by a non kyrptonian supergirl....
it could work...

[bfrank]

Yeah, Donna's infinitely more likeable, but her background now resembles a first-tier X-Man's.
psyloke, phoenix (jean or ray), or even magneato have nothing on the baggage that is Donna Troy, right now....