WWE RAW Review: " The Eugene Invitational ! "

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Its another weekly dose of RAW from me. Yep....I'm actually doing this for the 2nd week In a row.


1st lets do News:


Rob Van Dam was told by Doctors he Is cleared to return . The WWE Is shooting for an October return but RVD feels he can come back after Summerslam and start his program with Carlito. We'll see what happens.


Stevie Richards and Blue Meanie were told today that they were gonna be added to tonights Smackdown House show vs Pscosis/Super Crazy vs Nunzio/Vito Lagrassa .

TNA has decided to not renew the contract of Tryton and his picture was dropped from the TNA Roster page. Also Delirious was also dropped and was working without a signed deal.


TNA will release a " Best of the X-Division " DVD with 11 awesome matches and a 20 minute Jerry Lynn Interview. This should be pretty cool to get.

Onto RAW:

The Good: Jericho opens RAW with a promo before the music even airs. He talks down Cena and Is doing a heelish job of It. Then Cena attacks him and I have to thank the WWE Writers. I'm at least not watching a Battle of the God Awful Bands this week !

Bischoff makes Jericho special guest referee again for Cena/Carlito. Which odds are , will be Carlito's 2nd best Match on WWE RAW.


Shelton at least didn't job this week. And the match was watchable considering you had The Big Show, Snitskey , and Chris Masters all Involved. God willing I'm betting Shelton's wondering what corner of hell he got tossed Into....


But the funniest thing...the pure out right comedy was the angle with Eugene. The writers hit a HR with this return and putting him against Kurt Angle was GOLD. Pur mic gold.

" Ok Eugene I want my-"

" State your name ! Where ya from ? "


Eugene has to win award for this acting as will Kurt Angle. In the end Kurt nearly goes beserk as Tanaka comes out after a joke about Indians. The Native American helps Eugene beat down Kurt Angle at the end and like Custer.....Kurt had his last stand at that Indian Reservation.

Rob Conway finally gets pushed as a singles from La Resitance. Now he's playing some egotist/con artist type who strangely wants to wrestle with his sun glasses on ! The look works for him and In 1 promo he shows more than Chris Masters Is , In the same gimmick! Conway also has talent so maybe that helps.

He's doing It " The Con Way " people. Its catchy. Lets see how WWE uses him.


Vince McMahon trots out and plugs the 636th RAW Show. He brings up that no one thought It would work and congratulated the guy most responsible: Himself. Yep...you thought he may have thanked all of the WWE Raw Supserstars past and present ? Silly people....Vince McMahon IS GOD!!!

But he does make one good decision and brings up that he always rehires guys on the basis , Its good for business. I'd bring up Shane Douglas and Jeff Jarrett ....but he'd suffer a meltdown. So he brings out MATT HARDY!

And Matt comes out pissed. I mean he's angry. He goes ahead and thanks the fans and that whole history. I'm shocked WWE admitted that Kane/Lita was a storyline. Because It sorta erased thier whole 2 year angle. Like a giant comic book retcon !

So Matt debuts his new catchphrase after he swears to hurt Adam Copeland at Summerslam and wishes he dies In a car accident ! Jesus...thats cruel ! Hardy finishes with " Matt Hardy won't Die ! "


Of course with a monster face like Hardy returning , Shawn Micheals Is busy entering his HEEL God status. And we have him doing a Hulk Hogan Imitation with a spoof of that Larry King Interview.

After some funny scenes with Shawn flexing and " Brother " said a million times , Shawn's clips gets played. By GOD....you have to see what he's done. Its like a scene from Rocky playing with each battle,match and move. I have to give HBK credit...he's a freakin SHOWSTOPPA. Its a shame others won't admit It.

At the end..to end a funny segment Shawn turns and superkicks the fake Larry and strips off the makeup and promises to give Hogan a kick In his ass as he super kicks the camera. Score 1 for Shawn Micheals as a heel. I DEMAND....DEMAND to see John Cena vs Shawn Micheals this fall. Make It happen WWE !

The Carlito/Cena match was solid enough that Carlito again didn't look weak. It was a match filled with tons of Jericho Interferance and Carlito did lose.

In the end Jericho snaps from fun filled heel atagonist to massive angry heel. He batters John Cena and leaves him bloody as Bischoff cheers him on as fans boo huge. They were so Into It. Cena may not be a Benoit...but he's pretty much thier Austin and this would make Jericho his Bret Hart !

In the end we get hype as Jericho ends the show by staring at the WWE Title. In essance he pretty much damned the Smackdown Main Event because lets be serious....whats a better Main Event...Cena/Jericho or Batista/JBL ? I'll take the one that Vince Isn't angry about.

The Bad: Even with Special Guest Rob Schnieder this thing continues to freakin suck. My god now they have thier version of Women American Gladiators. Odds are they'll get sued. Maybe that'll teach Vince McMahon , aka the sole reason RAW Is as great as It Is , a lesson.

The blond with the Superman panties wins. Rob walks off to a nice pop and you have to think..without Duece Bigalow out there , this thing would be sucking.



OVERALL: ***1/2 Outta 5. Better than last week. Way...WAY BETTER. In fact you have Shawn as heel making himself the 1# Heel and thats where a problem lies. Who gets John Cena next ? Kurt Angle or Shawn Micheals. I'm pushing for Micheals because the man has been gold.

[Donald Stone]

Fun show, but I found it funny that even the crowd thought Matt's "I hope Edge dies in a car accident" bit was a bit over the line.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Cena vs Carlito was average at best with a Cena "Superman" win in the end but Jericho and Carlito's antics made the match watchable. Cena again underperformed and again was outperformed by a very average worker but what can you expect? He is John Cena and he's not improving no time soon. Pretty pathetic. But Jericho again stole the show and was great tonight.

Michaels went on and on with his little goofy Hogan imitation. Best little vignette he's done since returning but still too long and not worth the time.

Hardy returns and as suspected is instantly one of the biggest faces on Raw. Welcome back, Matt. Die Edge Die! Live Matt Live!

Big Show/Shelton vs Snistky/Masters was the match I predicted would happen this week and it did. And just like I predicted, Shelton carried the workload with two horrible workers doing stiff and predictable offense. One of only 3 matches that the crowd was TOTALLY into the whole time.

Eugene vs Tatanka was something I couldn't complain about. I like Eugene and Tatanka was a guy I marked for long ago. Nice little face match that progressed the Angle/Eugene fued.

Rob Conway vs Venis? What can I say? When the crowd chants "This Match SUCKS" over and over again. You're gimmick isn't getting off to a great start.

The Diva Search? Worthless except Leyla RULES! I give Raw a 7/10 for Shelton and Jericho's work this week.

[clayholio]

I'm really amused by the Eugene invitational. Eugene's Angle Slam was awful, though.

I'm really disturbed by Rob Conway's whole act, and yet I can't look away. I'm not sure that going from "French Sympathizer" to "gay biker" is really going to do a whole lot for him. But at least he's not Val Venis, who lost to the gay biker tonight.

HBK's Larry King/highlight package segment was gold, brother.

I think the real problem with the show was that all the good wrestlers weren't wrestling tonight. Jericho's a guest ref, Benjamin took a 15 minute beat-down from a couple of talentless lugs, Chavo... I mean Kerwin White is shopping for real estate, Angle's watching Eugene's match. I guess it's too much to ask for one decent match-up. Oh well...

And I've learned to keep a book handy for the Diva Search.

[Steve]

Heh. It was nice to see Tatanka again, even though he put on quite the pounds. Remember the dude from WCW days.

[Dennis K]

The bit with Angle and Eugene was pretty good, right up until they brought out Tatanka, who looks like he's been living on the donut reservation.

The Shawn Michaels promo was the funniest thing I've seen since the spoof of the Four Horsemen. From the laughter of the audience I'm guessing it went over pretty damn well with them as well, and anybody who tries to say anything to the contrary is either liar or a fool. Highlight of the night.

Rob Conway? Pretty sure I've seen this crap before in the guise of Billy Gunn. Let's just cut to the Conway/Masters wedding and be done with it already.

The whole return of Matt Hardy? *Yawn* Oh boy, Matt's angry. Matt's intense. Matt has no charisma and even less mic skills. By this time next year Matt will be back to curtain jerker status.

Rob Schneider pushing his tediously shitty movie, another *Yawn*. Go back to sucking Adam Sandler's ass Rob, it's what you do best.

[Tien Long]

"I hope Edge dies in a car accident" bit was a bit over the line.

Yeah, I kinda thought that too.

[adamthered]

I bust a gut when Jericho called the champ "Young MCena."

I'm sure that probably flew over a bunch of the audiences' collective heads :D

[GremlinClr]

I loved HBKs promo. I just wish it were true, that he won't lay down for Hogan. We all know who walks out of SummerSlam with the win though. :(

Liked Angle/Eugene.

The whole return of Matt Hardy? *Yawn* Oh boy, Matt's angry. Matt's intense. Matt has no charisma and even less mic skills. By this time next year Matt will be back to curtain jerker status.
Unfortunately I think you're right about this one. Matt is perma midcard. After his feud with Edge (which by the way, there's no way in hell the SS match will not be a shoot. They can say all day long they can be professional, once they get in the ring I doubt it'll stay that way) he'll go back down to IC level.


Rob Schneider pushing his tediously shitty movie, another *Yawn*. Go back to sucking Adam Sandler's ass Rob, it's what you do best.
You can do eeeeet!




All in all, a solid RAW. About 1000 times better than last weeks.

[Shade]

Man the footage on WWE.com of a bloodied Cena being helped to the back is brutal. He either was legit messed up or is one hell of a selling machine!

HBK promo was GOLD. Just awesome stuff.

Shelton carried a match with three huge no talent workers. Get this guy in a program with Angle or HBK soon. PLEASE?!

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Unfortunately I think you're right about this one. Matt is perma midcard. After his feud with Edge (which by the way, there's no way in hell the SS match will not be a shoot. They can say all day long they can be professional, once they get in the ring I doubt it'll stay that way) he'll go back down to IC level.


No matter what, Hardy is over in new ways and I see him remaining one of the most over faces on Raw for quite some time.

[JohnPopa]

Folks, Edge and Matt Hardy working each other stiff is NOT A SHOOT. (Not that I think that will happen although I'm sure they'll make it look that way so everyone who knows wrestling is fake can be dumb enough to allow themselves to believe otherwise.)

A SHOOT would be them doing a match without a pre-determined finish with a real winner and loser.

Guys potatoing one another or the Acolytes or Scott Steiner roughing up news guys is NOT A 'SHOOT.'

It's guys being rough in a worked wrestling environment, not in any way related to a shoot fight.

Just pointing out something pretty basic ...

[Forefinger]

Eugene and Michaels as Hogan both made me LOL. Not enough wrasslin' but hey, it's pretty cool. It gets me warmed up to watch UFC Unlimited!

[GremlinClr]

Folks, Edge and Matt Hardy working each other stiff is NOT A SHOOT. (Not that I think that will happen although I'm sure they'll make it look that way so everyone who knows wrestling is fake can be dumb enough to allow themselves to believe otherwise.)

A SHOOT would be them doing a match without a pre-determined finish with a real winner and loser.

Guys potatoing one another or the Acolytes or Scott Steiner roughing up news guys is NOT A 'SHOOT.'

It's guys being rough in a worked wrestling environment, not in any way related to a shoot fight.

Just pointing out something pretty basic ...

Shoot…stiff…I think you knew what I meant. :rolleyes:

[StoneGold]

Tatanka! Buffalo! I've got Native American blood in my veins and I fight! In the World Wrestling Federation!


Great storyline show, mediocre wrestling show, but with the exception of the chick shit, the storylines were engrossing enough to make up for it.


Oh, and it may be a work, but it is possible for guys to go into business for themselves within the work.

[Donald Stone]

Call me crazy, but I actually think Show and Shelton would make a good tag team for a while (not that there's a tag division for them to wrestle in, but anyway).

Show can be a pretty entertaining guy even if he's not much of a worker, and him and Shelton could come up with some crazy tag moves together. Shelton can handle most of the in-ring work, Show is the muscle so he doesn't have to put in a lot of ring-time, Shelton can come up with all kinds of crazy shit to do with a partner Show's size, and neither of them really have anything else to do.

[StoneGold]

Tatanka! Buffalo!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I just want to add..that the fans In watching Robert Conway , weren't outright booing It. They were puzzled by It more or less. Was he acting gay ? Was It an egotistical gimmick ? Who knows but they just sit and...watched.

[Howard Allan]

Apparently on wwe.com today they are saying that lesnar maynot be joining the companyand has broken off all negotiations.. There is alot of speculation that this is a work.

[StoneGold]

Tatanka! Buffalo!

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I just want to add..that the fans In watching Robert Conway , weren't outright booing It. They were puzzled by It more or less. Was he acting gay ? Was It an egotistical gimmick ? Who knows but they just sit and...watched.

He got a non reaction. The worst kind and mix that in with the huge "This Match SUCKS" chants being audibly heard on television. He's not heading in the best direction.

[metalhead_dave743]

Apparently on wwe.com today they are saying that lesnar maynot be joining the companyand has broken off all negotiations.. There is alot of speculation that this is a work.


So that means Brock will probably make a surprise return without anyone expecting it. Hopefully he will attack Batista because I'd like to see a fued between them

Mark my words it'll be a surprise though.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

nobody has any idea how pissed i will be when brock has to job to JBL.

[metalhead_dave743]

nobody has any idea how pissed i will be when brock has to job to JBL.


That won't happen, hopefully Brock will REPLACE JBL.

[Dennis K]

That won't happen, hopefully Brock will REPLACE JBL.

When in doubt, always ask yourself, what will make Vince the most money. So what will bring in more money, a continuing Bastita/JBL feud, or a Batista/Lesnar feud?

[JohnPopa]

If they have Brock and Batista lay one finger on one another before Mania XXII, they're dumber than even I think they are.

[BoosterBronze]

Um... Tatanka, Buffalo.

And on that note, GREAT EPISODE. Euguene/Angle promises to be one of the best feuds of the year in terms of matches and in terms of humor.

I think Conway is money... as long as they don't go gay. Creepily egotistical is one thing. If he was gay, his whole weird and interesting gimmick just becomes another rehash of "gay wrestler." I like "The Con-Way" as a catchphrase.

Guys, help me out- Did Tatanka/Chis Chaves ever wrestle in WCW? I cant recall.

[Steve]

Guys, help me out- Did Tatanka/Chis Chaves ever wrestle in WCW? I cant recall.
Now that I think about it, he didn't. I was mistaken that he did.

Here's his profile (http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profiles/t/tatanka.htML).

I think I got Tatanka mixed up with another dude who looked similar to him over in WCW. He was an islander I think. I can't remember his name.

[Forefinger]

Was I the only one that was actually hoping that Carlito would win the WWE title on RAW? (I don't like Cena). I don't like Carlito either, but I was also hoping that Y2J would take the title from CCC soon after.

I don't think that anyone would think that Conway was gay, if he didn't wear the gay biker looking hat.

[Steve]

Was I the only one that was actually hoping that Carlito would win the WWE title on RAW? (I don't like Cena). I don't like Carlito either, but I was also hoping that Y2J would take the title from CCC soon after.

I don't think that anyone would think that Conway was gay, if he didn't wear the gay biker looking hat.
Every time Cena comes on, I just usually flip the channel, as I have for the last few weeks during the main events. He makes me want to cry of boredom.

[titanfan]

Poor Conway. I think he is a fantastic worker, and one of the best all-around wrestlers on the RAW rosters. His new gimmick is a little weird though, and he his offensive moveset is pretty uncreative. He needs a few new moves and I think he'll be ok. The match with Venis was kind of boring.

Frankly, there were only 4 matches this entire show! You'd think now that we didn't have the 15 minute Triple-H promos we'd have time for more matches, but nooooo......

Agreed with Kurt Angle/Eugene. I've despised all of Eugene's storylines from day one. This is the first Eugene feud I'm really enjoying.

[Howard Allan]

Tatankas now signed with WWE.

[Devon C.]

Tatankas now signed with WWE.
Chris Chavis did WHAT now? How old is he, anyway?

[StoneGold]

TATANKA! BUFFALO!!!

[metalhead_dave743]

When in doubt, always ask yourself, what will make Vince the most money. So what will bring in more money, a continuing Bastita/JBL feud, or a Batista/Lesnar feud?


When I say replace JBL I mean as the top heel of SD. Hopefully Batista will powerbomb JBL out of a victory on SS and then they can bring Brock in.

I would love to see Brockernaught in full dick mode take on Godtista at Mania XXII

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The WWE Is pretty much doing whatever Is possible to sell a future 3-Disc DVD of Bret Hart's. Thier meeting with the former WWF & WCW World Champion to sell him on coming back to the company In a role to promote his DVD .


Dusty Rhodes Is also meeting to join as a member of the creative team. He Is sheduled to meet with Stephanie McMahon about helping the Creative team,selling the WWE Legends line of DVD's and possible 4 Horsemen DVD's as well.


Roadkill & Danny Doring were backstage at Smackdown. Doring has made It on Velocity. Odds are Doring & Roadkill could be on Smackdown at some point.

Kid Kash has signed a WWE Developmential deal and will be reporting to eithor OVW or Mid South soon. Kash has been trying out for awhile to get Into the company so I'm happy for him.

The Boogy Man ( Marty Wright ) has Injured himself at a House Show against Stevie Richards. Wright hyper extended his knees and Its unknown how long that will set him back. Cleary no ones caring because the promo's have became pretty funny.


Jim Cornette will break his silence over his WWE Release on tonights " Between The Ropes" . Its gonna be Interesting how he paints the slapping Incident that happened.


WWE Raw did a 3.8 this week off hours of 3.6 and 3.8 ! The Overrun pulled a 4.4 as well. Highest rated segments were the Matt Hardy Interview and the horrible Diva contest.


D-Von Dudley has no kind words for Johnny Ace. In fact D-Von says Its Ace's fault that him and Bubba wasn't resigned to new contracts. Ace Is leading an anti-Dudley movement and Its a reason why Spike was fired and the Dudleyz weren't persued to newer deals. Thier current contract ends August 26th.


Batista has been calling D-Von a lot. Batista broke Into the WWE by being D-Von's lacky 1st. And the 2 get along very well. D-Von Is happy for his success.

Right now thier at Universial Studio's and feel that Japan and TNA will be the odds on favorite. Of course never count em out of a WWE return because thier still on good footing with Vince. So who knows.


credit:

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[clayholio]

Was I the only one that was actually hoping that Carlito would win the WWE title on RAW? (I don't like Cena). I don't like Carlito either, but I was also hoping that Y2J would take the title from CCC soon after.

I don't think that anyone would think that Conway was gay, if he didn't wear the gay biker looking hat.

The hat isn't the whole problem, the trunks with the see-thru mesh on the sides also contributes to the look. But the hat is odd.

Actually, I kept hoping that any of the announcers would mention that Carlito beat Cena on Smackdown in his very first match for the US title. Sure, that was last year, but it would have lent some credibility to CCC having a legit chance to win the belt from Cena, instead of having to be helped to a win. It would have taken only one or two sentences to put across the fact that Carlito had beaten Cena before.

[Forefinger]

The hat isn't the whole problem, the trunks with the see-thru mesh on the sides also contributes to the look. But the hat is odd.

Actually, I kept hoping that any of the announcers would mention that Carlito beat Cena on Smackdown in his very first match for the US title. Sure, that was last year, but it would have lent some credibility to CCC having a legit chance to win the belt from Cena, instead of having to be helped to a win. It would have taken only one or two sentences to put across the fact that Carlito had beaten Cena before.
I thought that they might have continued Carlito's streak of winning titles on his first match for them, but it was only a small hope. I was sure that Cena was going to win, I thought one of the other faces on RAW might have helped him our or something. It would have been funnier for CCC to have won it and then have Jericho get jealous.

[Devon C.]

I thought that they might have continued Carlito's streak of winning titles on his first match for them, but it was only a small hope. I was sure that Cena was going to win, I thought one of the other faces on RAW might have helped him our or something. It would have been funnier for CCC to have won it and then have Jericho get jealous.
That'll just lead to Carlito eventually going face. And no one wants that.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

WWE.Com has a story up where Bret Hart had his meeting with WWE Oficials on his return to the company. He will be having meetings all week long as they hope to get him back to help sell the Bret Hart 3-disc DVD coming up.



credit:

www.pwinsider.com
www.wwe.com
www.411mania.com

[Howard Allan]

WWE.Com has a story up where Bret Hart had his meeting with WWE Oficials on his return to the company. He will be having meetings all week long as they hope to get him back to help sell the Bret Hart 3-disc DVD coming up.



credit:

www.pwinsider.com
www.wwe.com
www.411mania.com

Hell keeps coming closer to freezing over. Bret swore he would never go back to the WWE. He swore hell would freeze over first. well you know what happens in wrestling. Never say never.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hell keeps coming closer to freezing over. Bret swore he would never go back to the WWE. He swore hell would freeze over first. well you know what happens in wrestling. Never say never.


Never say Never In wrestling! Thats a given. If Bret comes back expect him to do something that Involves Shawn Micheals. Lots of storyline potential there.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

There's only one real credible reason why I would want Bret to come back home to the company that he has his most sucess and that would be so he could get the standing ovation he didn't get on his way by getting manipulated by Michaels and McMahon. He deserves that. He always did. Michaels didn't carry $hit. It was all on Bret's shoulders for years on end and he got shafted in the end.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

There's only one real credible reason why I would want Bret to come back home to the company that he has his most sucess and that would be so he could get the standing ovation he didn't get on his way by getting manipulated by Michaels and McMahon. He deserves that. He always did. Michaels didn't carry $hit. It was all on Bret's shoulders for years on end and he got shafted in the end.


Look Shawn was an asshole. He was an egotistical S.O.B then. He admitted it. He wanted to be the 1# man in the company and he said he did things wrong because he felt he should have been " the guy ".


Shawn apologized for it,Montreal ( which he admitted he & McMahon was behind ) , and all his actions then.


Looking back...watch an episode of WWF RAW In 1996. It was Bret Hart & Shawn Micheals that really carried the WWF til 1998 , when Austin took over. Each man did things and carried the Main Event scene. They both get credit because they played so well off each other.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Look Shawn was an asshole. He was an egotistical S.O.B then. He admitted it. He wanted to be the 1# man in the company and he said he did things wrong because he felt he should have been " the guy ".


Shawn apologized for it,Montreal ( which he admitted he & McMahon was behind ) , and all his actions then.


Looking back...watch an episode of WWF RAW In 1996. It was Bret Hart & Shawn Micheals that really carried the WWF til 1998 , when Austin took over. Each man did things and carried the Main Event scene. They both get credit because they played so well off each other.

Well Michaels had one of the worst drawing reigns in history and was a bad face champion towards the end of his run. Bret as heel in 97 really took things to the next level during his fued with Austin. Michaels was just a sidekick who got punked out by Undertaker to not wanting to job the title and other nonsense. Shawn Michaels was no leader. He was an embarassment. It's pitiful how badly he was champion. I'm glad I watched the NwO and Sting over that garbage run.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well Michaels had one of the worst drawing reigns in history and was a bad face champion towards the end of his run. Bret as heel in 97 really took things to the next level during his fued with Austin. Michaels was just a sidekick who got punked out by Undertaker to not wanting to job the title and other nonsense. Shawn Michaels was no leader. He was an embarassment. It's pitiful how badly he was champion. I'm glad I watched the NwO and Sting over that garbage run.


Bret Hart also wasn't a huge drawing World Champion eithor In this period. The business was down for them awhile. Micheals needed Hart and vice versa because a lot spinned from both men.


Hell In a Cell wouldn't have been the success It was without Shawn Micheals. If you say the Undertaker did more then Shawn's bumpin around like a freakin pinyata was nothing.

Plus Shawn had numerous good matches. Foley even admits that his match at WWF Mind Games In 1996 was his greatest match. And who did It ? Shawn Micheals as Champion.

Its like tossing a dart and denying all the good Shawn did at the time and you lose a ton of good matches and mic battles he had. If anything after Bret Hart left he pretty much carried the company towards Steve Austin's reign as Champion.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Bret Hart also wasn't a huge drawing World Champion eithor In this period. The business was down for them awhile. Micheals needed Hart and vice versa because a lot spinned from both men.


Hell In a Cell wouldn't have been the success It was without Shawn Micheals. If you say the Undertaker did more then Shawn's bumpin around like a freakin pinyata was nothing.

Plus Shawn had numerous good matches. Foley even admits that his match at WWF Mind Games In 1996 was his greatest match. And who did It ? Shawn Micheals as Champion.

Its like tossing a dart and denying all the good Shawn did at the time and you lose a ton of good matches and mic battles he had. If anything after Bret Hart left he pretty much carried the company towards Steve Austin's reign as Champion.

Shawn Michaels getting his ass kicked all match long by the Underaker in HIAC and then winning it by pure Kane interference was one of the worst endings I've ever seen. Peroid. Nothing to really brag about.

Foley likes his Michaels match? Fine. Because fans worldwide didn't. That PPV got a horrible buyrate and Michaels again failed at drawing. What else is new though, right?

Michaels with the championship from Nov '97-March '98 was ridiculous. The guy didn't defend it and never had television matches. A pretty mundane reign that did no one any favors watching it. The best thing about it was Austin winning the way he did at WM 14. One of the best moments of 1998.

[Howard Allan]

Regardless of whether Bret signs or not, we've seen the last of him in ring. He'll never fight another match. this is one thing that is a sure thing. Bret can help with promos and other stuff but in ring action is a thing of the past.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

When in doubt, always ask yourself, what will make Vince the most money. So what will bring in more money, a continuing Bastita/JBL feud, or a Batista/Lesnar feud?


no doubt, but after that big money fued, i think it will be job-city for brock.

[Forefinger]

Every time Cena comes on, I just usually flip the channel, as I have for the last few weeks during the main events. He makes me want to cry of boredom.
I thought that Cena was actually improving while he was on Smackdown, but it seems like he's floundering to me now that he's on the "big" show, RAW. I'm kind of dissapointed that we won't get to see Orton vs. Cena any time soon. They both came in around the same time and have both won big titles, potentially good storyline there, because Orton lost his title and then got sidelined by injuries and could be jealous of Cena's popularity and continued succes, but no, just let Cena continue to be a "rapper". Crap. I want that guy to drop the title, and maybe then he would be interesting while trying to get it back. RAW needs some more big face guys. It seems like I'm always cheering for the bad guys.

[JohnPopa]

"Foley likes his Michaels match? Fine. Because fans worldwide didn't. That PPV got a horrible buyrate and Michaels again failed at drawing. What else is new though, right?"

Because you would know what 'fans worldwide' think of a match.

Flair/Steamboat was a terrible draw too, you know, and WCW in 1989 when that feud was on top lost millions, but that doesn't mean people lessen their judgement of the individual matches or their ability to judge the work of Flair or Steamboat.

[GremlinClr]

Why does every RAW thread have to turn into a "discussion" (<---- I use that term loosely), about HBK? Jesus Lehnsherr, let it go. Why are we even discussing matches that happened like 10 years ago? The thread is about this weeks RAW, not your irrational hate of HBK.

[Shade]

Shawn Michaels getting his ass kicked all match long by the Underaker in HIAC and then winning it by pure Kane interference was one of the worst endings I've ever seen. Peroid. Nothing to really brag about.

Foley likes his Michaels match? Fine. Because fans worldwide didn't. That PPV got a horrible buyrate and Michaels again failed at drawing. What else is new though, right?

Michaels with the championship from Nov '97-March '98 was ridiculous. The guy didn't defend it and never had television matches. A pretty mundane reign that did no one any favors watching it. The best thing about it was Austin winning the way he did at WM 14. One of the best moments of 1998.

Michaels winning by Kane interference is crap but Austin winning by a turn by special guest rep Mike Tyson is great? WTF?

And Michaels faced Shamrock and Vader on RAW in November of '97. He faced Own on RAW in December. It was at the January Casket match that Shawn injured his back to the point of retirement. WWE wanted him to hold the title til WM 14 for his last match and to help get Austin over with the win at the big show.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Michaels winning by Kane interference is crap but Austin winning by a turn by special guest rep Mike Tyson is great? WTF?

And Michaels faced Shamrock and Vader on RAW in November of '97. He faced Own on RAW in December. It was at the January Casket match that Shawn injured his back to the point of retirement. WWE wanted him to hold the title til WM 14 for his last match and to help get Austin over with the win at the big show.


And what history and most forget Is the horrible shape Shawn was In at Wrestlemania 14. His body was shot and he was going on pure will. Even Vince McMahon came to him and asked If he was wanting to put off the match and do the honors for Austin at a later date.


But Shawn said no. It was Wrestlemania , the Main Event and he was the Showman. So he went ahead and pretty much ended his career for 4 years.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

i've never been a fan of HBK as a heel or face, but he's a good/great wrestler and evidently a very good heel if he can get someone to hate him so much. man i hated him back in the day, i still hate him. i feel the same about jericho.

[JohnPopa]

Well, to be completely accurate, Shawn also resisted the idea of putting Austin over that night, even though he knew his career was probably over, to the point that Undertaker was in the gorilla position with Michaels, taping his fists and making it clear that he was doing that so that if Shawn didn't do business, he was going to get an ass beating when he got backstage.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well, to be completely accurate, Shawn also resisted the idea of putting Austin over that night, even though he knew his career was probably over, to the point that Undertaker was in the gorilla position with Michaels, taping his fists and making it clear that he was doing that so that if Shawn didn't do business, he was going to get an ass beating when he got backstage.


That too figured In. But Vince was the boss and he even asked Shawn If he wanted to wait. I think part of Micheals knew he couldn't continue on the type of shedule a World Champion had then. His body was just to bad and I think he felt time off would help.

Its no secret that the WWE had plans to keep Austin/Micheals as the fued til the end of Summer. Its just luck that Micheals took time off so they went with McMahon/Austin and It exploded.

[JohnPopa]

Plus Shawn was a complete asshole at this point in history and didn't want to do business with anyone.

[Donald Stone]

I thought that Cena was actually improving while he was on Smackdown, but it seems like he's floundering to me now that he's on the "big" show, RAW. I'm kind of dissapointed that we won't get to see Orton vs. Cena any time soon. They both came in around the same time and have both won big titles, potentially good storyline there, because Orton lost his title and then got sidelined by injuries and could be jealous of Cena's popularity and continued succes, but no, just let Cena continue to be a "rapper". Crap. I want that guy to drop the title, and maybe then he would be interesting while trying to get it back. RAW needs some more big face guys. It seems like I'm always cheering for the bad guys.Cena was a lot better on Smackdown, because back then he pretty much did his own thing.

Now as champ, he's got the writers feeding him every line, and he just doesn't look that comfortable out there. He reminds me of the Rock during his first big face run. Hopefully Cena can get used to things and maybe the writers can back the fuck off and let him be himself for a change.

[BoosterBronze]

Well, to be completely accurate, Shawn also resisted the idea of putting Austin over that night, even though he knew his career was probably over, to the point that Undertaker was in the gorilla position with Michaels, taping his fists and making it clear that he was doing that so that if Shawn didn't do business, he was going to get an ass beating when he got backstage.

What? Where the hell did this story come from?

[Dennis K]

Foley likes his Michaels match? Fine. Because fans worldwide didn't.

As a fan, I'd just like to say please shut up and don't try to speak for me. Thank you.

[StoneGold]

TATANKA! BUFFALO!
http://ewfprowrestling.bizland.com/wrestlers/images/tatanka.jpg

[GremlinClr]

TATANKA! BUFFALO!



Running Jokes Into the Ground
How do you know when a joke stops being funny?






tententen.

[StoneGold]

tententen.
Jealous...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

What? Where the hell did this story come from?


Scott Kieth covers It In his books. I don't doubt Taker did this. He was pissed at Micheals because Shawn had that habit of not doing a clean job as Champion. In fact Wrestlemania 14# was supposed to be Bret Hart/Shawn Micheals with Hart going back over but Shawn tossed a fit over It and plans were changed when Hart said he would end up hurting Shawn. ( This would lead to a real life fight backstage that changed King of the Ring later that year as well.)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

"Foley likes his Michaels match? Fine. Because fans worldwide didn't. That PPV got a horrible buyrate and Michaels again failed at drawing. What else is new though, right?"

Because you would know what 'fans worldwide' think of a match.

Flair/Steamboat was a terrible draw too, you know, and WCW in 1989 when that feud was on top lost millions, but that doesn't mean people lessen their judgement of the individual matches or their ability to judge the work of Flair or Steamboat.

My point is this since it went over you're head again..NO ONE bought the damn PPV enought to care. That's the type of draw Michaels/Foley is. It's like comparing Cena to Austin. Cena is pretty popular but he isn't drawing Austin numbers. Not even in the same realm actually. Forget match quality..Michaels didn't get the job done at carrying the company and that's all that matters in this converation.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Why does every RAW thread have to turn into a "discussion" (<---- I use that term loosely), about HBK? Jesus Lehnsherr, let it go. Why are we even discussing matches that happened like 10 years ago? The thread is about this weeks RAW, not your irrational hate of HBK.

When you make goofy comments like this I have to respond. Irrational? How? Because there are more HBK marks than ones of quality wrestling right now. To this DATE, no one of his fans have made one point to back up why he's been pushed like he is, why his heel turn has been pretty lackluster since he wants to play tweener, and of course there's the fact that he barely wrestles on Raw. I'll let it go when people stop crying about me calling out his shortcomings.

[Gaz]

When you make goofy comments like this I have to respond. Irrational? How? Because there are more HBK marks than ones of quality wrestling right now. To this DATE, no one of his fans have made one point to back up why he's been pushed like he is, why his heel turn has been pretty lackluster since he wants to play tweener, and of course there's the fact that he barely wrestles on Raw. I'll let it go when people stop crying about me calling out his shortcomings.
Because you seem to deny him having ANY talent whatsoever, whilst similtaneously praying to St Shelton of the Not Quite Ready For Singles Matches.
(Glib, I know, but you refuse to see any flaws in Benjamin, thus coming off as damned hypocritical)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Because you seem to deny him having ANY talent whatsoever, whilst similtaneously praying to St Shelton of the Not Quite Ready For Singles Matches.
(Glib, I know, but you refuse to see any flaws in Benjamin, thus coming off as damned hypocritical)

WTF are you talking about? I gave the old timer credit for his workrate back in the mid '90s but he's not and have NEVER been the greatest wrestling performer of all time. That's a notion that has no truth to it.

And what I say about Benjamin is legitimate as seen every single week. Up until he tripped his legs over the ropes(work or not), there's been unncessary crying about Shelton. One supposed slip doesn't take away from Shelton's workrate. It doesn't take away that he's outworking the whole damn Raw roster every damn week. While HHH is on vacation and Michaels is trying to get the fans to turn on Hogan, Shelton is in the ring carrying GARBAGE like Masters and Snitsky to somewhat watchable matches. That's why I give him credit. He has EARNED it. And considering all of his "slips" have come against the garbage can of Raw, I see no reason to downrate his performances.

[JohnPopa]

Shawn 'losing his smile' had to do with the fact that he was being asked to do two major jobs in a row in '97, one to drop the belt to Sid (which would lead to 'Taker beating Sid at 'Mania because business was struggling and that means Vince goes with size) and then to Bret at 'Mania, which was from the outset meant to lead to a third match between the two that was expected to have Shawn win.

Unforuntaely for both Hart and Michaels, Michaels storming out of Mania opened the door for the Hart/Austin match that basically made Austin as a completely viable top player and the guy who was going to carry the company in a completely new direction.

The Hart/Michaels fight in June of '97 had specifically to do with Michaels implying that Hart and Sunny had had a fling on the road, right after McMahon had told both of them to leave non-storyline style comments out of their interviews regarding one another. Michaels was specifically ticked that he thought Hart had drug out an interview on purpose to make Michaels's superkick comeback happen after a live show had gone off the air.

The actual fight between the two didn't affect King of the Ring -- it happened in Hartford, CT the night after KOTR. It did screw up that live show big-time, that was already screwed up because the long-promised Steve Austin/Brian Pillman match couldn't happen because Austin hurt his knee the night before at KOTR wrestling Michaels and then both Michaels and Hart walked off the Raw show.

[Gaz]

WTF are you talking about? I gave the old timer credit for his workrate back in the mid '90s but he's not and have NEVER been the greatest wrestling performer of all time. That's a notion that has no truth to it.

And what I say about Benjamin is legitimate as seen every single week. Up until he tripped his legs over the ropes(work or not), there's been unncessary crying about Shelton. One supposed slip doesn't take away from Shelton's workrate. It doesn't take away that he's outworking the whole damn Raw roster every damn week. While HHH is on vacation and Michaels is trying to get the fans to turn on Hogan, Shelton is in the ring carrying GARBAGE like Masters and Snitsky to somewhat watchable matches. That's why I give him credit. He has EARNED it. And considering all of his "slips" have come against the garbage can of Raw, I see no reason to downrate his performances.
And no-one denies he's talented, but even if we say he's green, or a little rough when working with less talented guys, you act as though we're saying he's as bad as Masters. He's not, he's just young and the polish he's missing will come in time, as it did with Hart, Benoit and Guerrero.
And I have never seen you even admit he's (Michaels) been responsible for being adequate in a match, let alone the good to great performances he gives in the big matches, like every WM match since his redebut. You even gave Angle full credit for this year's success, despite disliking him too, ignoring the fact that both men gave their all, as well as their damaged physical conditions. (Angle's neck and HBK's back aren't the same as they were when each guy was at his peak)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Shawn 'losing his smile' had to do with the fact that he was being asked to do two major jobs in a row in '97, one to drop the belt to Sid (which would lead to 'Taker beating Sid at 'Mania because business was struggling and that means Vince goes with size) and then to Bret at 'Mania, which was from the outset meant to lead to a third match between the two that was expected to have Shawn win.

Unforuntaely for both Hart and Michaels, Michaels storming out of Mania opened the door for the Hart/Austin match that basically made Austin as a completely viable top player and the guy who was going to carry the company in a completely new direction.

The Hart/Michaels fight in June of '97 had specifically to do with Michaels implying that Hart and Sunny had had a fling on the road, right after McMahon had told both of them to leave non-storyline style comments out of their interviews regarding one another. Michaels was specifically ticked that he thought Hart had drug out an interview on purpose to make Michaels's superkick comeback happen after a live show had gone off the air.

The actual fight between the two didn't affect King of the Ring -- it happened in Hartford, CT the night after KOTR. It did screw up that live show big-time, that was already screwed up because the long-promised Steve Austin/Brian Pillman match couldn't happen because Austin hurt his knee the night before at KOTR wrestling Michaels and then both Michaels and Hart walked off the Raw show.


I missed my dates up. I should have said 97. But yeah Shawn had the reputation for an asshole. And he paid that price with his back. Like karma coming back to haunt him.


By 98 he hit the end of the road. You out perform and out do everyone In every match nearly and you hit a wall. Shawn Micheals had that rep. that If he went over the top rope , he never touched the rope. He would go over it clean and land on the floor because he didn't wanna f-ck up a spot.


That Sunny line was what pissed Bret off the most. He wasn't ready for It and the superkick happened while Bret was In a wheelchair ( he was playing up the Austin attack ) . Yep...Shawn & Bret at 1st had no heat whatsoever and It grew Into hate.

[JohnPopa]

Mid '98 would have been interesting had Michaels not broken his back wrestling 'Taker. The company almost certainly would have gone back to Austin/Michaels and probably swapped the belt back and forth a couple times. The drawback might have been, though, that the Summer of '98 elevated Kane, Foley and reignited Undertaker as real draws, not to mention sowing the seeds of Rock and HHH being passed the torch. Sure, HHH probably would have gotten his push but with Michaels around, Rock might not have gotten that window to move up as the company wouldn't have needed another top star or been so willing to pass the belt to a green kid still a ways away from being a top caliber worker.

In a lot of ways, Shawn leaving cleaned up the attitude and let Austin and 'Taker become the lockerroom generals and also allowed McMahon to look to some new talents as being main event draws.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

And no-one denies he's talented, but even if we say he's green, or a little rough when working with less talented guys, you act as though we're saying he's as bad as Masters. He's not, he's just young and the polish he's missing will come in time, as it did with Hart, Benoit and Guerrero.
And I have never seen you even admit he's (Michaels) been responsible for being adequate in a match, let alone the good to great performances he gives in the big matches, like every WM match since his redebut. You even gave Angle full credit for this year's success, despite disliking him too, ignoring the fact that both men gave their all, as well as their damaged physical conditions. (Angle's neck and HBK's back aren't the same as they were when each guy was at his peak)

It's one too many nick nats though. How can one be bashed and not the other? My only problem on the Benjamin matters. Nothing more, nothing less. As for Michaels? The guy always gets more credit than his opponents. Another reason why he overrated to death by his internet fans. It's ridiculous. I'm sorry but the guy is NOT the be all and end all of wrestling. And when did I start disliking Angle? Man, your making me laugh over here. Don't get me confused with someone else. There's no doubt about it that Angle, Shelton, and Jericho are the high points of Raw these days. For me at at least. And how can I not give Angle the proper amount of credit he deserves for the WM 21 match? Surely you don't REALLY think that Michaels carried Kurt Angle, RIGHT?

[Gaz]

It's one too many nick nats though. How can one be bashed and not the other? My only problem on the Benjamin matters. Nothing more, nothing less. As for Michaels? The guy always gets more credit than his opponents. Another reason why he overrated to death by his internet fans. It's ridiculous. I'm sorry but the guy is NOT the be all and end all of wrestling. And when did I start disliking Angle? Man, your making me laugh over here. Don't get me confused with someone else. There's no doubt about it that Angle, Shelton, and Jericho are the high points of Raw these days. For me at at least. And how can I not give Angle the proper amount of credit he deserves for the WM 21 match? Surely you don't REALLY think that Michaels carried Kurt Angle, RIGHT?
No, I don't. But I do consider a match of that high quality to be necessarily a joint effort.
I consider Michaels a great all-rounder. Not as good in the ring as Benoit, and perhaps not as good on the mic as... actually, I think he may well be one of the best there.
I may be incorrect, but I recall you and Leslie getting into quite a tizzy back in March/April over how lousy their match was going to be, because Angle was broken down and Michaels was over-the-hill. And afterwards it was claimed that Angle carried the whole match, seemingly almost as a means of denying any credit to Michaels for his 3rd Match of the Night at a WM in a row.

[JohnPopa]

What about all us 'internet fans' who have been watching, reading about and following wrestling since the mid-eighties?

I always preferred Hart to Michaels as a performer because I thought Shawn oversold and I thought Bret came off tougher but any list of the top American performers of all-time is going to have Shawn Michaels high on the list, not even his most heated personal enemies would argue that. Sure, you'll get 'yeah he was a great worker BUT ...' and some people will weigh the BUT more heavily than the workrate in terms of judging Michaels's legacy in the business but no one will dismiss his match work.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Mid '98 would have been interesting had Michaels not broken his back wrestling 'Taker. The company almost certainly would have gone back to Austin/Michaels and probably swapped the belt back and forth a couple times. The drawback might have been, though, that the Summer of '98 elevated Kane, Foley and reignited Undertaker as real draws, not to mention sowing the seeds of Rock and HHH being passed the torch. Sure, HHH probably would have gotten his push but with Michaels around, Rock might not have gotten that window to move up as the company wouldn't have needed another top star or been so willing to pass the belt to a green kid still a ways away from being a top caliber worker.

In a lot of ways, Shawn leaving cleaned up the attitude and let Austin and 'Taker become the lockerroom generals and also allowed McMahon to look to some new talents as being main event draws.


Well Kane wasn't really elevated. He just got a World Title reign that lasted a night. Foley & Taker wrestled that Hell In a Cell and that sold them and Rocky & HHH both were working thier asses off In the mid-card at that point.

By late 98 they pushed Rocky. If Micheals had cleared himself your right about The Rock's push not happening then. The Injury sucked for the company because they had plans but what they changed them to worked because with a hot NWO angle In WCW , WWF had Austin/McMahon to take It over.


The Industry hit a high. It wasn't Micheals fault It was In the toilet In the mid 90's. And It wasn't Bret Hart's. Blaming those 2 you might wanna add Diesel,Sid and Undertaker to the list of the business being In the toilet.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

What about all us 'internet fans' who have been watching, reading about and following wrestling since the mid-eighties?

I always preferred Hart to Michaels as a performer because I thought Shawn oversold and I thought Bret came off tougher but any list of the top American performers of all-time is going to have Shawn Michaels high on the list, not even his most heated personal enemies would argue that. Sure, you'll get 'yeah he was a great worker BUT ...' and some people will weigh the BUT more heavily than the workrate in terms of judging Michaels's legacy in the business but no one will dismiss his match work.


Micheals has a tendecy to sell a lot. In fact he'll sell his usual big moves ( elbow off ladder, back flip thru table) as big moves. And fans love that. Micheals has done good to do that.


Heres a tidbit. Flair In his book even said that Shawn Micheals was the Best Wrestler of the 1990's he ever saw. Thats not a lie. Thats Ric Flair saying It.

I respect Bret Hart but his career sadly ended In 2001. Bret's career was a solid one and almost every match he had was memborable and got fans to cheer and boo. He was The Hitman.

But Shawn was someone who fought wars In the ring. He took huge bumps, blew his back out and came back In the same glory he had before. Yes he's slowed down. Thats believable because he's 40.

Of course he maybe 40 but he's still nailin everything at a high level. The RAW Locker room all respect him. Shawn went from being an asshole to being thier General now. He commands It. Truth....he's grew up a lot. Maybe marriage and kid worked for him. As well as being a renewed Christian.

[JohnPopa]

I'd say got elevated because he went from just being a guy fed to Taker to someone who could be used in several different programs. He was helped more by Foley who worked with him for months putting him over than the actual Austin match but it was that summer that make Kane a legit top player, a position he held onto for a long time (some would say too long at this point and they'd probably be right.)

Analyzing the business in the mid-nineties would take a lot more than a post on a message board, that's for sure. But, no, no one person was in a position to make or break the company. The audience was transitioning from the cartoonish Hulk Hogan era to the more physical style of the nineties. Once the business itself got pointed in a strong direction, both Hart and Michaels (as well as 'Taker) proved themselves to be big parts of wrestling's renewal.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'd say got elevated because he went from just being a guy fed to Taker to someone who could be used in several different programs. He was helped more by Foley who worked with him for months putting him over than the actual Austin match but it was that summer that make Kane a legit top player, a position he held onto for a long time (some would say too long at this point and they'd probably be right.)

Analyzing the business in the mid-nineties would take a lot more than a post on a message board, that's for sure. But, no, no one person was in a position to make or break the company. The audience was transitioning from the cartoonish Hulk Hogan era to the more physical style of the nineties. Once the business itself got pointed in a strong direction, both Hart and Michaels (as well as 'Taker) proved themselves to be big parts of wrestling's renewal.


It was ECW that did It. ECW emerged In the mid 90's and the WWF saw It. Even McMahon admitted that some of what ECW did could have crept Into Attitude. Heyman said It was a smart decision. Because going to the more adult fans and ECW Type crowd...the Promotion became 1# again.

[JohnPopa]

Micheals has a tendecy to sell a lot. In fact he'll sell his usual big moves ( elbow off ladder, back flip thru table) as big moves. And fans love that. Micheals has done good to do that.


Heres a tidbit. Flair In his book even said that Shawn Micheals was the Best Wrestler of the 1990's he ever saw. Thats not a lie. Thats Ric Flair saying It.

I respect Bret Hart but his career sadly ended In 2001. Bret's career was a solid one and almost every match he had was memborable and got fans to cheer and boo. He was The Hitman.

But Shawn was someone who fought wars In the ring. He took huge bumps, blew his back out and came back In the same glory he had before. Yes he's slowed down. Thats believable because he's 40.

Of course he maybe 40 but he's still nailin everything at a high level. The RAW Locker room all respect him. Shawn went from being an asshole to being thier General now. He commands It. Truth....he's grew up a lot. Maybe marriage and kid worked for him. As well as being a renewed Christian.

Yeah, I know Flair thinks Shawn is the best. Some of that's probably because Shawn's such a big Flair fan, some of that's probably an under-the-table shot at Hart who Flair doesn't especially like. And part of it's absolutely what Flair believes and, well, I'm certainly in no position to argue with Ric Flair about who can wrestle and who can't. But I still prefer Hart. But I'd imagine Flair's vote will count more than mine ;)

Shawn sold in the same vein as Curt Hennig -- head over heel bumps over the top rope and onto the floor if he had to, he was a smaller guy with an egotistical character. Big bumps got over huge because people believed he was all mouth and wanted to see him get slapped around.

Shawn's rebirth is pretty common in wrestling: it's an extreme lifestyle and surviving often means being at either one extreme or the other. Lots of guys go from wild partiers and absolute pricks to finding religion and changing their ways. The wrestling business tends to make guys lose their grounding, oftentimes dangerously once drugs get involved. I'm happy he's straightened himself out and I sincerely hope he and Bret sit down and talk through their issues with one another.

[Dennis K]

Quick question here because I'm genuinely curious. Who here thinks HBK could carry the title and be the basis for some interesting storylines?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Quick question here because I'm genuinely curious. Who here thinks HBK could carry the title and be the basis for some interesting storylines?


He's done It before. Of course he's really not had a chance to carry the title for long since he gave It back to HHH. But I can see him beating John Cena In a program. I can honestly wish they push a heel Shawn Micheals against John Cena. It could really benefit both mens careers. Cena needs that rub from a legend to go further over and Micheals Is a glorified legend. So let It happen.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

if HBK puts over a younger talent eventually, i'd like to see him as champ. but i mean put him over and not get the win back a week or 2 later, and hopefully he'd put over a truely talented worker not JBL.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

No, I don't. But I do consider a match of that high quality to be necessarily a joint effort.
I consider Michaels a great all-rounder. Not as good in the ring as Benoit, and perhaps not as good on the mic as... actually, I think he may well be one of the best there.
I may be incorrect, but I recall you and Leslie getting into quite a tizzy back in March/April over how lousy their match was going to be, because Angle was broken down and Michaels was over-the-hill. And afterwards it was claimed that Angle carried the whole match, seemingly almost as a means of denying any credit to Michaels for his 3rd Match of the Night at a WM in a row.

I don't recall a time where I took Leslie's opinion at heart anyway. She's a sarcastic poster who overstates instead of proving. Not worth my time. But I did say that Angle would carry Michaels throughout the match and that's what happened. And at WM XX, Benoit and Eddie were the MVPs. At WM 19, Rock vs Austin III is more memorable and brought up more than Jericho vs Micahels.

[JohnPopa]

I think if you were to take a poll of any group of interested wrestling fans and ask what the best match of Mania 19 was, most would say Michaels/Jericho. Austin/Rock is only a big deal because it was for all intents and purposes Austin's final match. Michaels/Jericho was a superb match, superior to the Austin/Rock match in every possible way.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I think if you were to take a poll of any group of interested wrestling fans and ask what the best match of Mania 19 was, most would say Michaels/Jericho. Austin/Rock is only a big deal because it was for all intents and purposes Austin's final match. Michaels/Jericho was a superb match, superior to the Austin/Rock match in every possible way.

It wasn't superior in any form. Rock and Austin at WM 19 probably had the most underrated main event of 2003. Michaels vs Jericho is a very good match but that was more of a great Jericho performance than anything. His emulation of Michaels' moves got bigger pops than when Michaels did them. And the next night, when Jericho put over the match saying it was one of the best of his career and Michaels career, Seattle as pretty dead. When the Rock put over his match with Austin later that night saying "they gave a hell of a performance", the entire arena got on their feet and starting applauding and cheering. It's just the order of things.

[JohnPopa]

Rock and Austin will pop an arena like few people. So will Dusty Rhodes. So will Hulk Hogan. An audience acknowledging what everyone was realizing was Austin's farewell is hardly unexpected. What that has to do with the specific work rate of a match is beyond me, although I'm sure it makes sense to you. Rock/Austin was a fine match, I'm not saying it wasn't. Michaels/Jericho was the best match that night. Your mileage may vary. In fact, I'm almost certain it will.

If nothing else, your constant use of your own peculiar interpretations of audience 'pops' is certainly more entertaining than the WWE product right now.

[clayholio]

It wasn't superior in any form. Rock and Austin at WM 19 probably had the most underrated main event of 2003. Michaels vs Jericho is a very good match but that was more of a great Jericho performance than anything. His emulation of Michaels' moves got bigger pops than when Michaels did them. And the next night, when Jericho put over the match saying it was one of the best of his career and Michaels career, Seattle as pretty dead. When the Rock put over his match with Austin later that night saying "they gave a hell of a performance", the entire arena got on their feet and starting applauding and cheering. It's just the order of things.
I was actually at that WM, and if you want to go purely by crowd reaction, the best match of the night was Hogan vs. McMahon. Nothing else even came remotely close, not even in the same universe. People were really into Rock/Austin and Jericho/Micheals as well, but those were distantly in 2nd place.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Rock and Austin will pop an arena like few people. So will Dusty Rhodes. So will Hulk Hogan. An audience acknowledging what everyone was realizing was Austin's farewell is hardly unexpected. What that has to do with the specific work rate of a match is beyond me, although I'm sure it makes sense to you. Rock/Austin was a fine match, I'm not saying it wasn't. Michaels/Jericho was the best match that night. Your mileage may vary. In fact, I'm almost certain it will.

If nothing else, your constant use of your own peculiar interpretations of audience 'pops' is certainly more entertaining than the WWE product right now.

Mainstream fans didn't know that was Austin's last match though. The only thing that was mentioned by Rock, Austin, and the commentary team was that it was the end of the Rock/Austin rivalry more than likely.

And unlike others who "interrupt", mine are tape or DVD for review at will. I can't be proven wrong on a matter that is there for me to see at will. You're going off memory. I'm not. Apples and oranges. Sorry.

And oh yeah, crowd reaction wise, at WM 19, Hogan's match got a bigger reaction. I was there, remember? But the Rock/Austin match was the ones the fans loved and revered as the very next night they chanted "Rocky" over and over again as the Rock put over Austin yet put himself over him, Hogan, Taker, HHH, Angle, and everyone else. Seattle, Washington just can't get enough of those two. It's no comparision. Michaels/Jericho may be a internet favorite but mainstream and causal fans'-wise....the Rock/Austin match was more favored.

[JohnPopa]

"And unlike others who "interrupt", mine are tape or DVD for review at will. I can't be proven wrong on a matter that is there for me to see at will. You're going off memory. I'm not. Apples and oranges. Sorry."

Huh?

[Donald Stone]

Wow. I thought Erik just had a hate on for Shawn, but from the sounds of it he's really a pretentious ass who's convinced his view is opinion trumps everyone elses.

Almost makes me wish I used my IL.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I had a huge hate for HHH In 2002-2003 . But I couldn't make everyone boo the damn guy. My main problems with HHH In those years was his horrible work and bulk he had put on.

Now thats he dropped down he's regained some of his form. I don't hate him as much and people still like the guy. You can't go and toss every good match a guy does because ya hate him. A lot of what someone does make him a legend.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

"And unlike others who "interrupt", mine are tape or DVD for review at will. I can't be proven wrong on a matter that is there for me to see at will. You're going off memory. I'm not. Apples and oranges. Sorry."

Huh?

I have most of what I refer to on tape or DVD. Your going off memory but I can just pull it up and see whenever I want.

Donald: It's all good because Shawn Michaels still is overrated and that's not changing becuase of 5 of his fans not liking it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I have most of what I refer to on tape or DVD. Your going off memory but I can just pull it up and see whenever I want.

And my memory works just fine In some cases. I also have DVD's of the WWE and Shawn Micheals and he did get pops. Like at Wrestlemania this past year. The crowd split and It happens In a good classic match.



Donald: It's all good because Shawn Michaels still is overrated and that's not changing becuase of 5 of his fans not liking it.


I think you'll still have to sell It to the entire Internet crowd,WWE Fanbase and perhaps the guys backstage who now follow Micheals. Because Its not like us 5 are the ones who buy all HBK DVD's and what not. He has more fans than that to sell this on.

[Donald Stone]

I had a huge hate for HHH In 2002-2003 . But I couldn't make everyone boo the damn guy. My main problems with HHH In those years was his horrible work and bulk he had put on.

Now thats he dropped down he's regained some of his form. I don't hate him as much and people still like the guy. You can't go and toss every good match a guy does because ya hate him. A lot of what someone does make him a legend.I don't hate the guy, but he does get tiresome some times. He's a good worker and a good talker, but there comes a time when his weekly 20 minute promo gets old.

[Donald Stone]

Donald: It's all good because Shawn Michaels still is overrated and that's not changing becuase of 5 of his fans not liking it.I don't give a damn what you think of Shawn, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What bugs me is that you think your opinion is better than everyone elses.

[Dennis K]

I don't give a damn what you think of Shawn, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What bugs me is that you think your opinion is better than everyone elses.

That's what the ignore feature is for. ;)

[Donald Stone]

That's what the ignore feature is for. ;)Eh, I went into this on the Rumbles Board before (I mainly hangout there, and there's a few guys who really bug me there) but I don't use it. I prefer to see what someones saying, even if I think it's garbage.

[Dennis K]

Eh, I went into this on the Rumbles Board before (I mainly hangout there, and there's a few guys who really bug me there) but I don't use it. I prefer to see what someones saying, even if I think it's garbage.


Understandable, but I'm beginning to think there's an exception to every rule.

[JohnPopa]

But what you're seeing is meaningless. You're seeing how crowds reacted at a live wrestling show or, even better, at ANOTHER wrestling show and somehow implying that it validates your opinion of someone's work rate. It's a meaningless measuring stick. In fact, 'pop' is probably the easiest thing in wrestling to manipuate and therefore is possibly the least relevant way to decide what's working in wrestling and what isn't. They don't call 'em 'cheap pops' for nothing. Lots of guys can get a pop without doing anything remotely credible to earn it and, at the same time, the pop means nothing for business. Hulk Hogan always gets a pop, that doesn't change the fact that there have been numerous times when he couldn't draw and certainly couldn't work, even though the audience in the arena always gets exited to see him.

Anyway, I'm done with you. I'll continue my wrestling conversations with people I know who are literate and educated about the business and who enjoy thoughtful discussion, not just mark wank about who they like and don't like.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I don't give a damn what you think of Shawn, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

What bugs me is that you think your opinion is better than everyone elses.

No, Donald. Don't play it off like that. But if you're gonna be arrogant enough to say I believe my opinions are fact, at least make a point. That's all subjective, my friend.

ECWFan: The crowd was split as two parts in the match but then they booed Micahels everytime he got booed offense. It's interesting how you can remember the slight "Shelton Sucks" chants at Vengeance but disregard how many times Michaels got booed against one of the biggest heels in the buisness. Very impressive for a guy who was supposed to be more respected and legendary than Kurt. As for his DVD sells? It doesn't compare to TRUE legends though. Austin, Rock, ECW: One Night Stands, Flair, etc. They have all outsold Michaels because, quite frankly, he's not that interesting to mainstream fans who inquiry about that kind of wrestling memorabilla.

And how can I forget John? Let's see...what's you're problem now? You bring up Hogan not drawing but in comparision to Shawn Michaels, that's a big no no. A bad Hogan drawing PPV is still better than the majority of PPVs where Michaels' headlines. Be done with whatever you want but in the end, you still couldn't prove me wrong. In essence, what was the whole point? :confused:

[Donald Stone]

No, Donald. Don't play it off like that. But if you're gonna be arrogant enough to say I believe my opinions are fact, at least make a point. That's all subjective, my friend.
I'm the arrogant one? You're the one who said 'I'm right, if you don't agree with me you're wrong."

If you don't like Shawn, who cares. There's more than a few wrestlers I don't like. But you going after everyone who likes the guy and telling them they're wrong is pretty egotistical.

[Gaz]

No, Donald. Don't play it off like that. But if you're gonna be arrogant enough to say I believe my opinions are fact, at least make a point. That's all subjective, my friend.

ECWFan: The crowd was split as two parts in the match but then they booed Micahels everytime he got booed offense. It's interesting how you can remember the slight "Shelton Sucks" chants at Vengeance but disregard how many times Michaels got booed against one of the biggest heels in the buisness. Very impressive for a guy who was supposed to be more respected and legendary than Kurt. As for his DVD sells? It doesn't compare to TRUE legends though. Austin, Rock, ECW: One Night Stands, Flair, etc. They have all outsold Michaels because, quite frankly, he's not that interesting to mainstream fans who inquiry about that kind of wrestling memorabilla.

And how can I forget John? Let's see...what's you're problem now? You bring up Hogan not drawing but in comparision to Shawn Michaels, that's a big no no. A bad Hogan drawing PPV is still better than the majority of PPVs where Michaels' headlines. Be done with whatever you want but in the end, you still couldn't prove me wrong. In essence, what was the whole point? :confused:
Simply put, what does a PPV buyrate have to do with match quality. By that logic, all ECW PPVs suck, as they got terrible buyrates compared to the Big Two.
That doesn't make the RVD/Jerry Lynn series anything less than stellar however.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I'm the arrogant one? You're the one who said 'I'm right, if you don't agree with me you're wrong."

If you don't like Shawn, who cares. There's more than a few wrestlers I don't like. But you going after everyone who likes the guy and telling them they're wrong is pretty egotistical.

I'm going after people? People ATTACK me for not liking him. You're getting it mixed up already. See what I mean?

Gaz: I'm talking about Michaels' drawing power. Not match quality. He brought up how Hogan didn't draw despite his crowd reactions. Same thing with Michaels except it was MUCh worse.

[JohnPopa]

Please, Erik, go back in this thread and find the quote where I said or implied that Shawn Michaels was a draw as a champion when he was on top of the company.

... tap tap tap ...

Ironically, no such posts exist. Because you're having a conversation in your head that you aren't having in real life.

So, yes, you proved me wrong in a conversation I wasn't even having and refuted statements I never made.

Well played.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

No, Donald. Don't play it off like that. But if you're gonna be arrogant enough to say I believe my opinions are fact, at least make a point. That's all subjective, my friend.

ECWFan: The crowd was split as two parts in the match but then they booed Micahels everytime he got booed offense. It's interesting how you can remember the slight "Shelton Sucks" chants at Vengeance but disregard how many times Michaels got booed against one of the biggest heels in the buisness. Very impressive for a guy who was supposed to be more respected and legendary than Kurt. As for his DVD sells? It doesn't compare to TRUE legends though. Austin, Rock, ECW: One Night Stands, Flair, etc. They have all outsold Michaels because, quite frankly, he's not that interesting to mainstream fans who inquiry about that kind of wrestling memorabilla.

The Micheals/Angle match was about more or less Kurt tossing a challenge at Micheals. He did jump him as a heel and the crowd split because the match was pleasing them. Its not that they didn't care for Shawn , they loved the match and at that point didn't care who won.

Micheals got the respect because the next night he came out to a huge ovation ( the Match was considered the best on the PPV) from fans. He swore that one day he'd get a 2nd shot at Angle and thanked the fans for the support.

A.J Styles was a huge face last year at TNA:Turning Point. Styles was going for the win against Peyet Williams who was a hated heel and part of the Canadian heel group. The fans started loving the match and cheered both men. They honestly fell for the match and cheered both guys. It happens.

Micheals DVD sold well as did Flair's. ECW's DVD sold even better than Ric Flair's package which should say something. But In all the WWE DVD's have sold pretty solid.

The Rock,Hogan,Flair and Austin were huge draws In thier era's. Hogan took wrestling to new hieghts In the 80's. Austin and the Rock did In the 90's. Its pretty clear that had Micheals not wrecked his back beyond belief , he would have been considered a bigger draw as Champion.

But that doesn't discredit him. Because he's considered one of the greatest In ring performers ever for a reason. The Rock maybe a huge star on the mic & Hollywood. But In a ring with Shawn Micheals....Rocky would be carried by Shawn. Same with Hogan,Flair and almost everyone that gets Into the ring with Shawn now. His pacing , charactor and everything has what made him who he Is. Nothing against Shelton..he's still green and needs charactor development to get over.

[JohnPopa]

I'm going after people? People ATTACK me for not liking him. You're getting it mixed up already. See what I mean?

Gaz: I'm talking about Michaels' drawing power. Not match quality. He brought up how Hogan didn't draw despite his crowd reactions. Same thing with Michaels except it was MUCh worse.

Erik could you have even a vague understanding of what you're talking about? Please? YOU said that the Rock/Austin match was the best at Mania because the next night the audience gave Rock a standing ovation. I then pointed out that a reaction like that isn't remotely relevant to the workrate of the match. I then listed a couple people who will always get a crowd pop, even though it doesn't relate to the quality of their work and, thus, doesn't equate with those people drawing business. What part of this ludicriously simple concept are you struggling with? It's your inane comparison that a match's quality -- the Michaels/Jericho match vs. the Rock/Austin match -- was decided by an arena crowd's reaction to the performers at the next night's show, by the audience's chanting 'ROCKY' and giving a standing ovation. It was NOT a discussion of Michaels's drawing power, nor did anyone think it was, other than you.

[Donald Stone]

I'm going after people? People ATTACK me for not liking him. You're getting it mixed up already. See what I mean?
Really? Cause looking back, there was no arguments until you said that Bret carried Shawn in they're fued, and then said that Shawn was a crappy champ. And then when people had the nerve to say that Bret didn't carry Shawn and that he wasn't a crappy champion you went off on Shawn and then said that you where right and everyone else was wrong.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The WWE In a wild move has pretty much pissed all the Cruiserwieghts off. Paul London was told he can no longer use the SSP as a top rope finisher because the WWE considers It too dangerous. London was warned not to use It again and the WWE has started banning all top rope moves.

This will pretty much kill the division thier trying to rebuild. What do these jokers at Smackdown do at meetings ? Figure out ways to f-ck the company and make the product more B-Show than It already Is ? Fire these stupied assholes Vince. Thier screwing the Brand Into the ground.


The Smackdown fools are even having a Ladder Match between Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio Jr at Summerslam. Is It gonna be for a 1# contenders slot to push Eddie towards Batista ? No silly..Its Domick's custody papers....f-ck. Talk about piss poor In bad taste.


In a spoiler , John Cena It appears will retain against Chris Jericho at Summerslam. Cena Is on the Unforgiven poster with....KURT ANGLE! It seems the WWE will push a Angle/Cena program after Jericho. Hmm might kick ass. Kurt plays a guy who isn't cool to new levels. Maybe the RAW guys should go to Smackdown and replace that Creative team.


There was a rumored Idea to do a Ric Flair vs HHH Match at Summerslam. But the WWE decided against It at this PPV due to the Hogan/HBK Match stealing a lotta the heat right now. One legends match is enough they feel and will do HHH/Flair down the road.


Bret Hart has completed all Interviews and commentary work on his DVD . Its sheduled for release In November. Mark your calenders.


And get this...In a scene where HELL has surely froze over...BRET HART & VINCE MCMAHON SHAKE HANDS! Its up at the link at www.411mania.com ! Or go to www.wwe.com and see. God does work In mysterious ways. :eek:




credit:

www.pwinsider.com
www.411mania.com

[JohnPopa]

Any long, hard fought match is going to split the crowd. It's what led the company (foolishly in my opinion) to think Benoit could carry Raw as a face. Benoit has a unique problem: his personality doesn't lend itself to being a face especially well but his matches tend to turn audiences toward him because he's so talented a performer and so convincingly physical.

A long, physical well-worked match is going to draw respect for both parties. Angle's always gotten some face reactions for a handful of reasons -- a) he's funny which people always respond to and b) he's a phenomenal performer. People know he's doing something special out there. Plus Angle has a ton of charisma. Had he been wrestling in the eighties in the NWA he'd be more revered than Flair. He would have been the ultimate 'tweener travelling world champion. Eddie Guerrero got a standing ovation after his no DQ match with Edge a couple years ago, even though he was the heel, because it was obvious to the people in the arena that he put himself out there for them. Jericho got cheers against Michaels at Mania. It's the nature of a long, serious match. The company then needs to either give the heel a quick heel spot (Jericho kicking Michales in the nuts) or move the character toward a face spot (which they've done with Benoit, Guerrero and Angle over the years although, honestly, none of them have been effective as top faces, for a handful of reasons.)

[Gaz]

The WWE In a wild move has pretty much pissed all the Cruiserwieghts off. Paul London was told he can no longer use the SSP as a top rope finisher because the WWE considers It too dangerous. London was warned not to use It again and the WWE has started banning all top rope moves.

This will pretty much kill the division thier trying to rebuild. What do these jokers at Smackdown do at meetings ? Figure out ways to f-ck the company and make the product more B-Show than It already Is ? Fire these stupied assholes Vince. Thier screwing the Brand Into the ground.


The Smackdown fools are even having a Ladder Match between Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio Jr at Summerslam. Is It gonna be for a 1# contenders slot to push Eddie towards Batista ? No silly..Its Domick's custody papers....f-ck. Talk about piss poor In bad taste.


I actually don't mind this Eddie/Rey angle. And a ladder match should be fun.
OTOH, SD! is going to be killed in comparison to Impact. TNA should have an Ultimate X match as the first Spike main event. Show fans what WWE won't.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Any long, hard fought match is going to split the crowd. It's what led the company (foolishly in my opinion) to think Benoit could carry Raw as a face. Benoit has a unique problem: his personality doesn't lend itself to being a face especially well but his matches tend to turn audiences toward him because he's so talented a performer and so convincingly physical.

A long, physical well-worked match is going to draw respect for both parties. Angle's always gotten some face reactions for a handful of reasons -- a) he's funny which people always respond to and b) he's a phenomenal performer. People know he's doing something special out there. Plus Angle has a ton of charisma. Had he been wrestling in the eighties in the NWA he'd be more revered than Flair. He would have been the ultimate 'tweener travelling world champion. Eddie Guerrero got a standing ovation after his no DQ match with Edge a couple years ago, even though he was the heel, because it was obvious to the people in the arena that he put himself out there for them. Jericho got cheers against Michaels at Mania. It's the nature of a long, serious match. The company then needs to either give the heel a quick heel spot (Jericho kicking Michales in the nuts) or move the character toward a face spot (which they've done with Benoit, Guerrero and Angle over the years although, honestly, none of them have been effective as top faces, for a handful of reasons.)



I'm gonna have to debate Eddie Guerrero's face turn. In fact , fans loved Eddie and It was hard to get them to really boo him when he did go heel this year. Eddie I think works best as a heel but for 2 years he was Smackdown's biggest face and the fools backstage thought he was a failure and wouldn't push him against JBL. ( May have helped save that Brand.)


I think of all the turns , Eddie Guerrero's face turn worked. He became a huge face and fans bought Into him. Its just that once Lesnar left the company decided to push JBL against him and thats not a good wise move. Maybe because JBL hadn't accomplished what Lesnar did In the time frame those fans had watched and they didn't have a reason to care. Who knows.....but Eddie's face turn worked til the pressure got to him and the company put the World Title on JBL and by then...that Brand was f-cked.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I actually don't mind this Eddie/Rey angle. And a ladder match should be fun.
OTOH, SD! is going to be killed in comparison to Impact. TNA should have an Ultimate X match as the first Spike main event. Show fans what WWE won't.


X-Division wise , TNA's gonna show Vince his ass. He's gonna get burned because TNA will let thier guys go and do what they want. Ohh yeahh..once a National Fanbase see's guys doing X-Stuff , Its gonna show up those WWE Cruiserwieghts. ;)

[Gaz]

I'm gonna have to debate Eddie Guerrero's face turn. In fact , fans loved Eddie and It was hard to get them to really boo him when he did go heel this year. Eddie I think works best as a heel but for 2 years he was Smackdown's biggest face and the fools backstage thought he was a failure and wouldn't push him against JBL. ( May have helped save that Brand.)


I think of all the turns , Eddie Guerrero's face turn worked. He became a huge face and fans bought Into him. Its just that once Lesnar left the company decided to push JBL against him and thats not a good wise move. Maybe because JBL hadn't accomplished what Lesnar did In the time frame those fans had watched and they didn't have a reason to care. Who knows.....but Eddie's face turn worked til the pressure got to him and the company put the World Title on JBL and by then...that Brand was f-cked.
Heck, they tried turning him heel in the tag division during the US title angle. He attacked his own partner (Tajiri) and they STILL wouldn't boo him, because that was part of his gimmick "Lie, cheat and steal".

[Gaz]

X-Division wise , TNA's gonna show Vince his ass. He's gonna get burned because TNA will let thier guys go and do what they want. Ohh yeahh..once a National Fanbase see's guys doing X-Stuff , Its gonna show up those WWE Cruiserwieghts. ;)
My one worry is, Joe's gonna be X-champ by then, (unless AJ goes heel at the PPV) and he's great, but not that fast paced, high-spot style.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

But that doesn't discredit him. Because he's considered one of the greatest In ring performers ever for a reason. The Rock maybe a huge star on the mic & Hollywood. But In a ring with Shawn Micheals....Rocky would be carried by Shawn. Same with Hogan,Flair and almost everyone that gets Into the ring with Shawn now. His pacing , charactor and everything has what made him who he Is. Nothing against Shelton..he's still green and needs charactor development to get over.

No. Rock would be carried by Michaels? On what grounds? But what proof? How would you know that? Michaels has avoided any type of match situation with the Rock. And the Rock works his kind of match. He's not going to get carried in this late stage. You know better than that.

Shelton is boarderline great in the ring and can turn heel with a Trish as his mouthpiece. It's not as hard as it appears. It's pretty much common sense.

John: It started off about promo ability to match quality and then it went to drawing ablity. What is hard for you to comprehend that? It's not that hard. At least I hope not.

Donald, Bret did carry the company and Michaels didn't draw as champion. If people can't accept that, that's their issue.

[Donald Stone]

X-Division wise , TNA's gonna show Vince his ass. He's gonna get burned because TNA will let thier guys go and do what they want. Ohh yeahh..once a National Fanbase see's guys doing X-Stuff , Its gonna show up those WWE Cruiserwieghts. ;)
Things is, most of the E's audience doesn't really care about workrate, they care about the characters. I'm not saying TNA can't go over, but I'm doubting it. And aren't they stuck with that crappy 10pm Friday Night timeslot?

Oh, and just out of curiousity, is TNA still using that weird 6-way ring?

[Donald Stone]

Donald, Bret did carry the company and Michaels didn't draw as champion. If people can't accept that, that's their issue.And of course anyone who disagree's with you wrong, wrong, wrong because you are the infalible source of info on wrestling.

[Gaz]

Things is, most of the E's audience doesn't really care about workrate, they care about the characters. I'm not saying TNA can't go over, but I'm doubting it. And aren't they stuck with that crappy 10pm Friday Night timeslot?

Oh, and just out of curiousity, is TNA still using that weird 6-way ring?
Still using the ring, and it works when you get used to it. Seperates them from WWE and allows for three to eight way matches much more easily.
They won't compete right away, but they'll get the guys who watch Velocity, which is the best WWE show anyway, and if Spike do promote the slot, maybe some curious noobs and MMA fans also. It could lead to growth after a year or so, with a better slot or a longer show.
TNA also have Abyss, Hoyt, Styles (Heel Styles is very cool), Daniels, Joe, Raven, Williams, and Sabin (TNA's Benoit, honestly, he can lose every week and still look great and pop the crowd during the match) so characters and talent aren't lacking.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Things is, most of the E's audience doesn't really care about workrate, they care about the characters. I'm not saying TNA can't go over, but I'm doubting it. And aren't they stuck with that crappy 10pm Friday Night timeslot?

Oh, and just out of curiousity, is TNA still using that weird 6-way ring?


Saturdays at 10pm. And the 6 sided ring Is still there. It gives the X-Guys more room to move and work. ;)

[JohnPopa]

Bret wasn't an especially effective draw either. He was better than Shawn, a little bit better than Flair but worse than Hogan or Savage were in their final runs on top. Flair/Savage with Savage on top was especially disappointing and led to the belt getting pulled off Flair and put on Hart. Hart's first run was unremarkable as a draw but neither Yokozuna nor Hogan were noticeably better (and Hogan was business smart enough to get out of the company before it became obvious that he couldn't draw anymore.) Hart's run with Owen was a big program at first, Diesel was a horrible draw, easily the worst draw in company history (although if we were to call out the Smackdown! champions the numbers would be frighteningly similar and since there were less PPVs then the PPV numbers were higher.) Hart again stabilized things when he got the belt back and a lot of people in the company thought it was a mistake to go with Michaels at Mania 12. They turned out to be right as Michaels didn't draw, although, for what it's worth, he was a better draw than Diesel. Nevertheless, amidst Michaels/Sid the company bottomed out to the point that the decision was made to go back to Undertaker, thinking size would save the day.

In the end, Austin was made by Hart at Mania XIII and the company began its resurgence (although it was hardly immediate and Austin as a face didn't take off immediately and in fact in a match with Shawn Michaels at King of the Ring the crowd was noticeably split although Shawn had just turned heel. He still had his contingent of female fans, though.) Austin would have happened either way but that was the one match that put him in a top position. Ironically it was just thrown together as an afterthought when Michaels bowed out of of Mania because he didn't want to job to Hart.

It really took the rub of Mike Tyson on 'Mania XIV establishing Austin to the mainstream to totally turn the WWF's fortunes around. Austin drew at peak levels the business had never seen before. In fact, many people will contend that that the only PEOPLE to actually draw in the WWF were Hogan in the 80's and Austin in the 90's and that others wouldn't have been able to draw without those two changing the face of the business. It's an arguable point, to be sure. They certainly put the bar in a different place for others to leap from.

(WCW was so blissfully incompetent in regards to PPV in the eighties and nineties that the only person to spike a WCW PPV was, eventually, Hogan, who popped a huge rate in his first PPV (a 1.0 or better PPV for a company until that point doing in the .4-.5 range.) He was DYING as a draw as a face by the end of his first run and was only saved by the heel turn and the NWO angle.

[Gaz]

Saturdays at 10pm. And the 6 sided ring Is still there. It gives the X-Guys more room to move and work. ;)
Might as well do it here.
Card for TNA Sacrifice, Aug 14.

AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe - #1 contender's match for X-Div title
Winner of above vs Christopher Daniels - X-Division title match
AMW/The Naturals vs Team Canada
Lance Hoyt vs Abyss
3LK vs Kip James/Monty Brown - BG James= guest ref
Jerry Lynn vs Sean Waltman
Raven/Sabu vs JJ/Rhino

[Donald Stone]

Saturdays at 10pm. And the 6 sided ring Is still there. It gives the X-Guys more room to move and work. ;)Okay, Saturday. Not a great spot when your after the young male audience :D

Still, I'll check it out, if only to see how the hell they work with that crazy ass ring.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

And of course anyone who disagree's with you wrong, wrong, wrong because you are the infalible source of info on wrestling.

Gotcha. Thanks for the compliment. :evilsmile

[SUPERECWFAN1]

(WCW was so blissfully incompetent in regards to PPV in the eighties and nineties that the only person to spike a WCW PPV was, eventually, Hogan, who popped a huge rate in his first PPV (a 1.0 or better PPV for a company until that point doing in the .4-.5 range.) He was DYING as a draw as a face by the end of his first run and was only saved by the heel turn and the NWO angle.


Actually WCW wasn't so completely brainless. In 1991 they had Jake Roberts vs Sting at Halloween Havoc and It drew thier highest ever PPV Buyrate til Hogan came In.


And WCW's Great American Bash 1990 also drew a huge Buyrate for the company as well. That was Sting's World Title win against Flair and capped his comeback. So WCW knew how to do huge drawing PPV's....just not a routine basis.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

No. Rock would be carried by Michaels? On what grounds? But what proof? How would you know that? Michaels has avoided any type of match situation with the Rock. And the Rock works his kind of match. He's not going to get carried in this late stage. You know better than that.

He's gonna get carried. The Rock Isn't a work rate wonder. He may wrestle his style of match with the signature moves ( ala Cena In some ways) but Rocky will get carried to his moves and beyond. Its a lot like when Benoit worked a great match from Rocky.

Micheals has been a face the last 3 years and Rocky Isn't exactly wrestling like he did. So the match won't happen for a long time. But Shawn Is the type of athlete that will get a great match from Rocky. Thats In ring and not his huge spots he hits as fans go WILD. A great wrestler can take someone from point A to Point B. Thats where Shawn and Benoit can do here.

Shelton is boarderline great in the ring and can turn heel with a Trish as his mouthpiece. It's not as hard as it appears. It's pretty much common sense.

Not gonna happen. Trish's charactor may come back as a face and Shelton doesn't need a mouth piece. He needs more COMMAND in his voice and a charactor. He really doesn't need a manager. Just some slight changes to his charactor and maybe fans will take to him on a more constant basis. As a heel or face.

John: It started off about promo ability to match quality and then it went to drawing ablity. What is hard for you to comprehend that? It's not that hard. At least I hope not.

Donald, Bret did carry the company and Michaels didn't draw as champion. If people can't accept that, that's their issue.


John posted a huge reply. Worked for me. ;)

[JohnPopa]

WWE doesn't really understand managers anymore anyway.

A funny bit of trivia is that Roddy Piper was originally hired in '84 to be a manager to replace Freddie Blassie who was getting too old to be on the road full-time.

In the long run, Roddy did a bit more business as a wrestler than he would have managing The Iron Shiek!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Bret wasn't an especially effective draw either. He was better than Shawn, a little bit better than Flair but worse than Hogan or Savage were in their final runs on top. Flair/Savage with Savage on top was especially disappointing and led to the belt getting pulled off Flair and put on Hart. Hart's first run was unremarkable as a draw but neither Yokozuna nor Hogan were noticeably better (and Hogan was business smart enough to get out of the company before it became obvious that he couldn't draw anymore.) Hart's run with Owen was a big program at first, Diesel was a horrible draw, easily the worst draw in company history (although if we were to call out the Smackdown! champions the numbers would be frighteningly similar and since there were less PPVs then the PPV numbers were higher.) Hart again stabilized things when he got the belt back and a lot of people in the company thought it was a mistake to go with Michaels at Mania 12. They turned out to be right as Michaels didn't draw, although, for what it's worth, he was a better draw than Diesel. Nevertheless, amidst Michaels/Sid the company bottomed out to the point that the decision was made to go back to Undertaker, thinking size would save the day.




And the decision to take the Belt off Flair wasn't one made on business. McMahon wanted to push his younger stars who had been growing Impatient and Flair was told that his stay at the Main Event scene would be ending. Vince didn't want to see Ric jobbed out and offered to let him out of his contract. Of course Ric had to put over Curt Henning before he left. *

* This was detailed In Ric's book. And online at various sites.


I think that a key reason why the business went to sh-t by the mid 90's was also the decision to not go with Micheals In 1995. In fact Micheals fan base was very vocal In 1995 In his matches against Diesel. They wanted Shawn as Champion , Vince refused thinking that a " Bigger Guy" was a better draw and kept pushing Micheals down.

This led to horrible PPV's like Diesel vs Mabel and Diesel vs Sid that pissed everyone off. Many left angry that Shawn wouldn't get the push. By late 1995 , Vince really had nowhere else to go. Diesel had tanked the company and Micheals was pretty much the only one who some fans seemed happy with.

[JohnPopa]

Well, I wouldn't expect Flair to say he got the belt taken off him because he couldn't draw, most wrestlers have somewhat ... slanted ... views of their drawing skills. Sure there were other factors but business was in the toilet and they wanted someone new (who didn't look like they were on 'roids too.) Had Flair been making any money for the company, they would have kept him in the main picture and built a challenger (even a match with Curt Henng would have had *some* storyline behind it.) Instead they just gave the belt to Hart at a house show with no build up and with no attempt at paying off a long-term story. Really, Flair had been on top a long time, most WWF heels ran for a few months on top before getting bumped down the card and he'd been on top for a year and a half at that point.

Vince did honor his handshake agreement with Flair that he'd let him out of his contract if he ever tried to move him down the card. Flair still came from the era when you put over the staying talent when you left a territory, plus he and Curt Hennig were great friends (and that was a great match.)

I'd say Bret should have had the belt longer in '95, he was a more stable force for the company and the switch to Diesel was awful. I don't think Shawn was ready in '95. As history proved, he wasn't necessarily ready in '96 either as the pressure got to him, as well as his own ego.

When business struggles, Vince goes with size. It's generally a bad decision but that's what he's always done.