Why Batman is the greatest comic character ever.

[SITHLORD]

I have a running debate with one of my friends over who is the greatest super-hero of all time. He says Superman, and it's pretty hard to argue that point. But her is my point of view.

Batman the character in so many complex ways it's amazing. He has had multiple incarnations. But in a world of people with magical power rings, invunerability, suits of armor, and magic lassos, Batman must rely on that which is a far greater weapon, his mind. The mind is the most powerful weapon in the universe, not Lanterns ring.

The Batman character over the years has adapted to every situation and crisis that has arisen to face him. Whether it be facing off against so multiple adversaries in "Hush", or solving a protracted case in "Long Halloween". Or perhaps his (brace yourselves) beatdown of Superman in "The Dark Knight Returns". Batman is in mmy opinion as indestructible as Kal-El in many ways.

I just finished re-reading the "Tower of Babel" series from JLA, and that is as good an explanation as any. Batman is the ultimate contingency planner. Always know how to bring everyone down around you, BECAUSE YOU JUST NEVER KNOW. Now I can appreciate that train of thoought, because I'm not the most trusting person myself. But can you imagine how hard it must be to be prepared to take out your friends(or in Bruce's case, the closest thing he has to one in Clark), and just accept it? That is in my opinion a badass.

Oh, and the fact he is unmatched in hand-to-hand(yeah you Cap and Wolvie people) sure doesn't hurt.

BATMAN, man among men.

[Guts/Batman]

There are people unquestionably better at hth, espcially in DCU. Just a nitpick.

[SITHLORD]

There are people unquestionably better at hth, espcially in DCU. Just a nitpick.

Such as, for instance?

[moebius]

Batman is consistently rated the most popular character in comics, and not Superman. I think the key is: the reader could be Batman. He is iconic because his abilities and motivations are the most human of any of the icons.

On the Marvel side, I'd argue for Spider-Man (though I guess not the abilities part).

Oh, and don't forget him taking down 3 White Martians single-handed.

[Guts/Batman]

Such as, for instance?

Cassandra Cain

[SITHLORD]

I fear you may be missing the point. There are several individuals in the DCU who have impeccable credentials when it comes to thier combat pedigree. Daivd Cains daughter Cassandra or even Lady Shiva being two for example. But would the Batman simply walk up to either of themm and initiate a fight. No. Bruce would pick the time and place that he would be guaranteed to allow him to be the victor in a confrontation. Not some random time, but a carefully arranged engagement. So no, Cassandra Cain is NOT Batman's hand to hand equal.

[CjP]

gah.... these 'greatest' threads annoy the heck out of me. Don't get me wrong, in this case I happen to agree with you. But stuff like 'greatest' or 'best' is so darn subjective... like ice cream, or pizza. I prefer mint chocolate chip, and pineapples with canadian bacon. Does that make them the greatest? To me, yeah... to you, maybe not so much.

[Guts/Batman]

Coulda fooled me. She has abilities that Bruce cannot duplicate. She can read body language and Bruce cannot. So that would give a decided advantage to Cassandra, would it not?

Also, didn't Bruce initiate a fight with Shiva in A Death in the Family, or am I misinterpreting that scene?

Batman has never beaten Shiva (They are all kinda stalemates, and indication that Shiva is at least Bruce's equal). Cassandra has.

I believe that is an indicator of Cassandra's hth abilities.

But I don't really wanna get into a rumbles-esque argument.

[SITHLORD]

gah.... these 'greatest' threads annoy the heck out of me. Don't get me wrong, in this case I happen to agree with you. But stuff like 'greatest' or 'best' is so darn subjective... like ice cream, or pizza. I prefer mint chocolate chip, and pineapples with canadian bacon. Does that make them the greatest? To me, yeah... to you, maybe not so much.

No offense intended to you also, but isn' debate one of the greatest aspects of our society. The ability to disagree and still have a beer at the end of the day, or is that just me?

To continue about Cassandra, yes, she has beaten Shiva, I don't dispute that. But do yoou really think that if Batman wanted Shiva taken down, he wouldn't. Honestly. He may have engaged her in combat, but I don't think that he had true intentions of being outright victorious. Shiva is just another useful tool in Batman's arsenal. It's because of her he regained his taste for violence after his defeat at Banes hands. And no, Bane is not his equal either because those were special circumstance that Bruse had no real control over. His desire to stop the criminals who had broken out of Arkham allowed Bane to do to him what her does to everyone else.

[CjP]

No offense intended to you also, but isn' debate one of the greatest aspects of our society. The ability to disagree and still have a beer at the end of the day, or is that just me?

I thought freedom was, but hey....

I have no problem with debate, as long as the issue being debated is something with some small amount of tangibility or relevance. Abortion, church in schools, GPS tracking for sex offenders... sure, let's debate the heck out of that. But do you really ever expect the UN Security Council to convene one day with a topic of 'My Country pwns j00'? If you ask me, topics are debatable, opinions aren't.

[SITHLORD]

I thought freedom was, but hey....

I have no problem with debate, as long as the issue being debated is something with some small amount of tangibility or relevance. Abortion, church in schools, GPS tracking for sex offenders... sure, let's debate the heck out of that. But do you really ever expect the UN Security Council to convene one day with a topic of 'My Country pwns j00'? If you ask me, topics are debatable, opinions aren't.

I think the best defintion that I have ever seen for opinion is this: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof".

Without opinions, we live in a world of black and white. No red, no blue, no colors. No differences as far as everyone's train of thought. I personally LOVE it when someone disagrees with me and a particular belief of mine. There are very few mental challenges greater that the resistance to having someone change your mind, or the strain of you attempting to change theirs. So I didnlt begin this post with the intent of having a national "BATMAN, MY HERO!" day. I simply looked forward to the enjoyment of seeing "opinions" that are like or differ from mine. What fun is a two-tone world.

[1HELLBOY]

Why Batman is the greatest comic book chatacter ever?



Becuase he just is. :evilsmile

[Headhunter]

Batman is the greatest character, Superman is the most recognizable, in my opinion.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

"Batman has never beaten Shiva"

Actually, he has. In the first arc of Superman/Batman.

Now, one could debate that Shiva was under Grodd's control...but the story itself didn't specify her status...controlled by Grodd like Grundy and Nightshade and others, on there on her own for the money.

[Patriot07]

Batman is the greatest character, Superman is the most recognizable, in my opinion.

That's the great thing about opinions. Where as your favorite character may be Batman, mine is Green Arrow. That's what's great about this country.

[The Shadow]

Though Batman is my personal favorite, I believe that SUPERMAN is the GREATEST. Without him there would BE no Batman... or any other comic book hero for that matter. He was light years ahead of what was going on in the early years of comics (gangsters, detectives and FBI type adventures) and he has inspired a host of imitators... but none has ever surpased the original. Not even Batman.

Batman (and Spider-Man) may be more relatable... I could be Batman (and lord knows I have many of the same problems Spider-Man has... mainly $$$) but Superman is what we ASPIRE to be. He brings out the best in people, does what is needed regardless of personal sacrifice and not because he HAS to do it (Batman has his vendetta... Spidey has his "with great powers..." schtick from Uncle Ben) but Superman does it because he CAN and because it's RIGHT.

Superman may be an idealized "perfect" hero... but he's also the greatest because he can inspire.

[olympichero62]

I'll go with Spider-man, followed by Green Lantern and Flash

[SITHLORD]

Batman is the greatest character, Superman is the most recognizable, in my opinion.

I think you may have hit that one dead on. They are both iconic in their own right. Someone far more versed in the comic world than I made the statement that DC has the icons over Marvel, and I agree. So many of the Dc characters are pure icons in thier standing, and Batman and Superman are two of the greatest.

[SITHLORD]

[QUOTE=The Shadow]Though Batman is my personal favorite, I believe that SUPERMAN is the GREATEST. Without him there would BE no Batman... or any other comic book hero for that matter. He was light years ahead of what was going on in the early years of comics (gangsters, detectives and FBI type adventures) and he has inspired a host of imitators... but none has ever surpased the original. Not even Batman.[QUOTE]

Without George Washington, there wouldn't haven't been an FDR, but I don;t think he was a better President. Seniority doesn't always lead to superiority.

[TJ Shoun]

Batman is a great character - but he suffers from the same problem that Wolverine does in the Marvel U:

Overexposure

What I appreciate most about Batman is the context in which he operates. He's a regular human playing with the big boys in the DCU, which is basically the home of modern gods and goddesses. Granted, he may be the pinnacle of mental and physical human achievement and he may be obsessively driven, but he's still just a guy in a suit. In that way, he's kind of a point-of-view character for the DCU - an entry level for readers - and he makes us feel good about our regular selves when we see him stand with and even intimidate these modern Gods in JLA and whatnot.

That's why I've always said that Batman wouldn't be nearly as popular if his sandbox was the Marvel U. The Marvel U isn't quite as regal as the DCU and there's plenty of relatable and 'regular Joe' heroes running around at Marvel.

[Guts/Batman]

"Batman has never beaten Shiva"

Actually, he has. In the first arc of Superman/Batman.

Now, one could debate that Shiva was under Grodd's control...but the story itself didn't specify her status...controlled by Grodd like Grundy and Nightshade and others, on there on her own for the money.

Tell you the truth, I think anything that goes on in S/B has a certain feel of bull****ness to that I think has to be almost separated from the rest of DCU.

[TJ Shoun]

Tell you the truth, I think anything that goes on in S/B has a certain feel of bull****ness to that I think has to be almost separated from the rest of DCU.

Loeb thinks S/B is just a platform for parading out goofy Silver Age concepts.

Batzarro?

But c'mon... that's why it's fun. :)

[Guts/Batman]

Loeb think S/B is just a platform for parading out goofy Silver Age concepts.

Batzarro?

But c'mon... that's why it's fun. :)

i don't disagree. It is a fun read.

It really isn't on my comics list but I have read more than a few issues. I don't think the fights from S/B can be taken seriously (as to the true nature of the characters abilites).

Superman owning Darkseid like a red headed step child like he did. I read somewhere on here that Bruce beat Diana. Etc...

[TJ Shoun]

i don't disagree. It is a fun read.

It really isn't on my comics list but I have read more than a few issues. I don't think the fights from S/B can be taken seriously (as to the true nature of the characters abilites).

Superman owning Darkseid like a red headed step child like he did. I read somewhere on here that Bruce beat Diana. Etc...

I haven't had any problems with most of Loeb's S/B, but I'll admit that Supes spanking Darkseid so easily was crap.

Yeah, I know he was pissed about Kara... but still. :rolleyes:

[TJ Shoun]

i don't disagree. It is a fun read.

It really isn't on my comics list but I have read more than a few issues. I don't think the fights from S/B can be taken seriously (as to the true nature of the characters abilites).

Superman owning Darkseid like a red headed step child like he did. I read somewhere on here that Bruce beat Diana. Etc...

I haven't had any problems with most of Loeb's S/B, but I'll admit that Supes spanking Darkseid so easily was crap.

Yeah, I know he was pissed about Kara... but still. :rolleyes:

Anyway, sorry for the thread derailment. Back to Batman...

[Aslan]

I agree that Batman is the Best comic book character for all the reasons (pros) listed above. To make another point, Batman is such a great character to READ about. I mean, I like just about any comic to read, but Batman is the MOST interesting to read about. I've always thought of it this way; Batman is the comic character you like to read about the most, Spiderman is the character you can RELATE to the most, and Superman is the comic book character you would want to be if you could BE a comic book character. (All three are my top three favorites, coincidentally) ;)

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Bats still beat Shiva in combat, in an in-canon story. Regardless of anyone's opinion of it, it happened.

I assume, though, that if it ever comes up in a book again, the handy Grodd excuse will cover Shiva's rear.

[PrimalScream]

i love heroes who could be bad if they let themselves.they are on the edge of being heroes or villains.batman wouldn't have to try hard to b bad where as i think superman would. it was said best in hush by batman himself "..because deep down clark is essentially a good person and deep down im not". i loved that. i think batman fits into wat i hav said. the reader relly connects n understands him most of the time and feels for him wen tragedy strikes (or atleast i do) and that is y he is the greatest (plus he is usually a step ahead of every other hero)

[SITHLORD]

i love heroes who could be bad if they let themselves.they are on the edge of being heroes or villains.batman wouldn't have to try hard to b bad where as i think superman would. it was said best in hush by batman himself "..because deep down clark is essentially a good person and deep down im not". i loved that. i think batman fits into wat i hav said. the reader relly connects n understands him most of the time and feels for him wen tragedy strikes (or atleast i do) and that is y he is the greatest (plus he is usually a step ahead of every other hero)

Batman is the type of person who has taken Sun Tsu's tenets from the Art of War and applied them to his life.

[Guts/Batman]

Bats still beat Shiva in combat, in an in-canon story. Regardless of anyone's opinion of it, it happened.

I assume, though, that if it ever comes up in a book again, the handy Grodd excuse will cover Shiva's rear.

True. Can't deny it didn't happen.

Wished it didn't or it wasn't canon.

Candy and nuts...

[bedbugjones]

um your forgetting getting the non super heros charecters like usagi yojimbo or marv from sin city and of coarse my personal favs the TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[spidermans_web_in_your_eye]

Though Batman is my personal favorite, I believe that SUPERMAN is the GREATEST. Without him there would BE no Batman... or any other comic book hero for that matter. He was light years ahead of what was going on in the early years of comics (gangsters, detectives and FBI type adventures) and he has inspired a host of imitators... but none has ever surpased the original. Not even Batman.

Batman (and Spider-Man) may be more relatable... I could be Batman (and lord knows I have many of the same problems Spider-Man has... mainly $$$) but Superman is what we ASPIRE to be. He brings out the best in people, does what is needed regardless of personal sacrifice and not because he HAS to do it (Batman has his vendetta... Spidey has his "with great powers..." schtick from Uncle Ben) but Superman does it because he CAN and because it's RIGHT.

Superman may be an idealized "perfect" hero... but he's also the greatest because he can inspire.

i beleive all super heros have the ability to inspire not just superman all though he is one of the greats there are many :)

[spidermans_web_in_your_eye]

i also believe that batman is one of the greatest comicbook charecters out there but there are many however batman is by far my faverite DCU charecter but my faverite superhero of all time is spiderman and he is my fav marvel charecter :)

[karasu]

Batman must rely on that which is a far greater weapon, his mind. The mind is the most powerful weapon in the universe, not Lanterns ring.



Pfft! lantern's ring only does what his mind tells it to do. batman isn't even human, he's a god. Anyone who can supposedly come up with plans that no one can counter is no human being. Superman has been hurt more than Batman has and he has more human relationships, and he's a frigging alien. Batman really is a great character, but I don't think his supposed lack of power makes him any more human than anyone else.

[The Shadow]

i beleive all super heros have the ability to inspire not just superman all though he is one of the greats there are many :)
Oh, for sure... but Batman inspires fear in criminals, Spider-Man in the public... whereas everyone is inspired BY Superman :D

[SITHLORD]

Oh, for sure... but Batman inspires fear in criminals, Spider-Man in the public... whereas everyone is inspired BY Superman :D

Thats just it. THAT is the reason that I while I may like Clark, he's no Bats. Supermans goody two shoes attitude irks the snot out of me. He may be what people might try and aspire to be, but Batman is what we really are. Deep down, we are all vindictive little people, who seek revenge for something in life. When is the last time we sat down and thought, "Well, what can I do that will be morally right today?"

Please.

[SITHLORD]

Pfft! lantern's ring only does what his mind tells it to do. batman isn't even human, he's a god. Anyone who can supposedly come up with plans that no one can counter is no human being. Superman has been hurt more than Batman has and he has more human relationships, and he's a frigging alien. Batman really is a great character, but I don't think his supposed lack of power makes him any more human than anyone else.

Give me a break. Remember when Bane snapped Batmans back across his knee. Or how he sat there on the ground as a child in a pool of his parents blood. Batman is as human as it gets, because he is motivated by the lust for revenge. Superman has the perfect life. National ICON and a hot chick at home. The one that everyone looks to in time of trouble, versus Batman, who pretty much everyones scared to Death of. And it's one thing to come up with creative planning, but it's a whole different thing to actually carry them out. Batmans is human to the core. A very COLD core.

[karasu]

Yeah Batman had his back broken, that was rough. Superman's died, been burned, been dosed with radiation over and over again, developed cancer that came alive lol, been forced to execute three people, has been brainwashed, hypnotized, disillusioned, blamed for everything under the sun, been cloned, had his jaw broken, been beaten to a pulp by Zod, Mongul, Darkseid, lost his real mother and father and his entire species, etc etc.

Batman's human, but so is The Green lantern, The Flash, etcetera etcetera. It's not unique, and he isn't the only character with no pwoers, there's much more to him than that. Dude's almost a vampire haha.

[Guts/Batman]

Heh. That was Batman who got broken by Bane in Knightfall.

BatGod is a totally different beast!

[karasu]

haha I guess you're right.

[Mainline]

Thats just it. THAT is the reason that I while I may like Clark, he's no Bats. Supermans goody two shoes attitude irks the snot out of me. He may be what people might try and aspire to be, but Batman is what we really are. Deep down, we are all vindictive little people, who seek revenge for something in life. When is the last time we sat down and thought, "Well, what can I do that will be morally right today?"

Please.

Speak for yourself.

There are a lot of people out there every day trying their best to do their best. It's what grown-ups who have grown up do.

The main reason for Batman's current popularity (since the campy Batman of yesterday could hardly speak of vindictiveness) is that it falls into that immature age bracket of powerless teens with revenge fantasies. He speaks to that immaturity by transforming a child into a powerful being, but stopping short of using that power responsibly or completely. How many kids inspired by Batman actually go out and try to be the best at everything? No, they stop short of just wanting the power to beat up others... the same with Batman. Batman doesn't use his wealth and technology to maximize his own abilities or safety of others, he just gets by far enough so that he can beat up thugs. A proto-typical school shooter... rather than taking his circumstances as fuel for true good, it's used for petty vengeance in the name of "good" (meting out "justice" to those who "deserve" it).

Outside of that Batman is anything but human. His brooding lonerism is a fictious ploy to appeal to those immature powerless teens, not a reflection of how the real world works. Life's about relationships... no one says (while honest) "I hate people. I am alone. And I feel so fulfilled." Batman is an inhuman fantasy that you can be divorced from relations yet still excel, be driven, and be motivated more than anyone else... something more alien than any Kryptonian.

His ability to excel is EVERYTHING is even more inhuman, particularly how effortlessly it comes to him. Olympians break their bodies and steel their wills to have a fraction of Batman's capabilities which he trains in trivially. Martial Artists study entire lifetimes to have even marginal capabilities compared to Batman's. Firefighters, acrobats, and so on commit life and limb to their professions, which Batman does daily as a reflex. People sacrifice so much to be- whatever- actors, magicians, detectives... but Batman effortlessly duplicates their life's work by mumbling a few lines about training sometime in his far past. He is very much the snotty rich brat that effortlessly gets everything handed to him by his writers, possessing an utterly impossible numeration of talents.

It's ironic that the character most clearly depicted in-canon as unrelatable, a loner, and incomprehensible by those CLOSEST to him... is somehow repeatedly cited as being one of the "most relatable" by his fans, as if the comic reading voyeur has a better relationship (one-way, no doubt) with Batman than his own "family".

Meanwhile characters like Spider-Man or Superman are profoundly more realistic, relatable, and human. Drawing strength from relationships, not wounds. Learning lessons from tragedy, not impossibly fueled by it. Doing the best they can with what they have.

[CjP]

Hm. seems like this thread has veered from 'greatest' to 'favourite'... in that case I'm changing my vote. Tie between Blue Devil and Vito Skreemer...

[SITHLORD]

Speak for yourself.

There are a lot of people out there every day trying their best to do their best. It's what grown-ups who have grown up do.

The main reason for Batman's current popularity (since the campy Batman of yesterday could hardly speak of vindictiveness) is that it falls into that immature age bracket of powerless teens with revenge fantasies. He speaks to that immaturity by transforming a child into a powerful being, but stopping short of using that power responsibly or completely. How many kids inspired by Batman actually go out and try to be the best at everything? No, they stop short of just wanting the power to beat up others... the same with Batman. Batman doesn't use his wealth and technology to maximize his own abilities or safety of others, he just gets by far enough so that he can beat up thugs. A proto-typical school shooter... rather than taking his circumstances as fuel for true good, it's used for petty vengeance in the name of "good" (meting out "justice" to those who "deserve" it).

Outside of that Batman is anything but human. His brooding lonerism is a fictious ploy to appeal to those immature powerless teens, not a reflection of how the real world works. Life's about relationships... no one says (while honest) "I hate people. I am alone. And I feel so fulfilled." Batman is an inhuman fantasy that you can be divorced from relations yet still excel, be driven, and be motivated more than anyone else... something more alien than any Kryptonian.

His ability to excel is EVERYTHING is even more inhuman, particularly how effortlessly it comes to him. Olympians break their bodies and steel their wills to have a fraction of Batman's capabilities which he trains in trivially. Martial Artists study entire lifetimes to have even marginal capabilities compared to Batman's. Firefighters, acrobats, and so on commit life and limb to their professions, which Batman does daily as a reflex. People sacrifice so much to be- whatever- actors, magicians, detectives... but Batman effortlessly duplicates their life's work by mumbling a few lines about training sometime in his far past. He is very much the snotty rich brat that effortlessly gets everything handed to him by his writers, possessing an utterly impossible numeration of talents.

It's ironic that the character most clearly depicted in-canon as unrelatable, a loner, and incomprehensible by those CLOSEST to him... is somehow repeatedly cited as being one of the "most relatable" by his fans, as if the comic reading voyeur has a better relationship (one-way, no doubt) with Batman than his own "family".

Meanwhile characters like Spider-Man or Superman are profoundly more realistic, relatable, and human. Drawing strength from relationships, not wounds. Learning lessons from tragedy, not impossibly fueled by it. Doing the best they can with what they have.

Whew, I haven't laughed that hard in YEARS.

I hoep that was just an amazingly long bit of typing farce and you aren't serious. Immature? I don't think I've heard anyone call Batman that. "Batman doesn't use his wealth or technology to maxmimize his own abilities or the safety of others". Have you at any point actually sat down and read a Batman comic. I think the the tally for total people save by the Batman is in the tens of thousands. Every major distater averted, every woman saved from a mugger, or shopkeeper rescued from a thief add to the legend that he is. Someone reverently respected by virtually every comman citizen in Gotham.

And the point of appealing to the "immature powerless teen" is just as bad. Do you understand that comic fans are a dying breed. I have read that the average comic book fans is in his 30's and 40's(I am pushing 30 myself). SO how do you surmise that his "brooding lonerism" is not a reflection of how the real world works. To try and tell me that we are all great morraly perfect people is crap. I know of one perfect person, and he died on a cross long ago for you an I. But we are all deep down nothing like Clark. NOTHING. None of us would sacrifice ourselves for random strangers.

And the issue of of Batman's seemingly inhuman ability to duplicate all of these skills? The ones that come so easy to him. Tell me something. Depending on which story or explanation you take, Bruce spent anywhere from 10-14 years studying various practice, martial arts and things of the like around the world. 14 YEARS. 5110 DAYS. Do you really not believe that a person of unbreakable will and determination would not sculpt themselves into essentially a perfect biological machine.

To be honest with everyone, I am disgusted after reading that post.

[SITHLORD]

It's ironic that the character most clearly depicted in-canon as unrelatable, a loner, and incomprehensible by those CLOSEST to him... is somehow repeatedly cited as being one of the "most relatable" by his fans, as if the comic reading voyeur has a better relationship (one-way, no doubt) with Batman than his own "family".

Meanwhile characters like Spider-Man or Superman are profoundly more realistic, relatable, and human. Drawing strength from relationships, not wounds. Learning lessons from tragedy, not impossibly fueled by it. Doing the best they can with what they have.

I think you essentially refuted your own statement. The reason that he is the most relatable to by fans, is because he is the most HUMAN of all the capes. Not Spider-Man, or Supes. Two men always worrying about the "right thing to do." Batman does wwhat NEEDS to be done. And that is why everyone likes him. Because he has the balls to do and say what everyone else wishes they did. "Learning lessons from tragedy," "Drawing strengtj from relationships." Please. 1 in 50 people might try and do that. And that is a very high odd. People stew about things, let in simmer inside us. We are nothing like Superman.

[Guts/Batman]

Well, I find Peter Parker a hell of alot more relatable than I do Bruce Wayne. There's no contest.

Peter is constantly broke (unless he won the lottery recently), has to work to keep his relationships intact, and wears the costume like he should. Bruce doesn't even try to keep relationships intact, doesn't have to work a day in his life to scrape by for a meager existance, among other things that are completely unrelatable.

He may not have the reputation of doing what needs to be done bit I think he does.

For example, his first dealing with Carnage, he goes off and gets Brock back from the island. He knows Eddie will stop at nothing to kill him but he puts that aside to ally with Venom. And at the end of the day, he has to put Eddie down again after he and Eddie put a stop to Cassidey.

I think we all aspire to be Superman. Many of us fail for many reasons while trying to attain to become "Superman-esque.

Also, I do not think he is the most human of capes. He cuts himself off from the rest of the world. He is a controlling, obsessive, paranoid jerk that alienates and uses everyone close to him. While that is relatable and very human, other superheros are beyond this.

Peter Parker is far more relatable than Batman will ever be.

"Learning lessons from tragedy," "Drawing strengtj from relationships." Please. 1 in 50 people might try and do that. And that is a very high odd. People stew about things, let in simmer inside us. We are nothing like Superman.

How can you grow if you don't look back on life without learning lessons of failures? How can you get more strength if you constantly push away everyone who wants to get inside?

[karasu]

Bruce spent anywhere from 10-14 years studying various practice, martial arts and things of the like around the world. 14 YEARS. 5110 DAYS. Do you really not believe that a person of unbreakable will and determination would not sculpt themselves into essentially a perfect biological machine.

haha I've studied for 22 years(starting at 6), all sorts of martial arts,and most people I know have trained for a similar amount of time.. You can't master 12 systems in that short amount of time, let alone 37. Fourteen years is nothing. In Shaolin it's said that it takes ten years to master the basics. I'd like it more if writers simply described Batman as a master, or 'well trained in various disciplines'. Not a master of EVERYTHING! Because 14, 20,or 30 years isn't enough to master everything he's mastered. There isn't enough time in a day. The martial arts are full of mystical legends, none of them master every style in 10 years lol. There are over 300 styles of Chinese Kung Fu alone. Then I'm suppossed to believe that he had time to master multiple branches of science as well? Come on. I know it's a comic book, and we're asked to believe that people can fly or shoot lightning out of their hands. But that's pur fantasy. With Batman you're talking about something that we all experience here, time and effort. Suspending disbelief when it comes to that is a little more difficult to do. I just choose not to take them literally.

[SITHLORD]

haha I've studied for 22 years(starting at 6), all sorts of martial arts,and most people I know have trained for a similar amount of time.. You can't master 12 systems in that short amount of time, let alone 37. Fourteen years is nothing. In Shaolin it's said that it takes ten years to master the basics. I'd like it more if writers simply described Batman as a master, or 'well trained in various disciplines'. Not a master of EVERYTHING! Because 14, 20,or 30 years isn't enough to master everything he's mastered. There isn't enough time in a day. The martial arts are full of mystical legends, none of them master every style in 10 years lol. There are over 300 styles of Chinese Kung Fu alone. Then I'm suppossed to believe that he had time to master multiple branches of science as well? Come on. I know it's a comic book, and we're asked to believe that people can fly or shoot lightning out of their hands. But that's pur fantasy. With Batman you're talking about something that we all experience here, time and effort. Suspending disbelief when it comes to that is a little more difficult to do. I just choose not to take them literally.

I have no doubt you have trained for 22 years. I have rolled every thing from Muy Thao,pure boxing, and Jeet Kune Do myself, so I understand the difficulty in training as well. But you stated it yourself. This is a comic book, not real life. Never has been, never will be. I accept that, so I take it all in with a grain of salt. But like you said, fying and magic rings. None of this crap is real, but it allows us to love in a fantasy world, that we can never attain. And in that world, Bruce is essentially the perfect human speciman.

[karasu]

Yeah, there' s just a huge difference in asking me to believe something almost completely based in fantasy like the idea of a flying alien living on Earth. And asking me to believe that Batman is totally human without powers while giving him a list of mastered skills so extensive that it defies logic. Saying that Batman in a normal human lifeline has mastered every martial art, and at the same time he is the world best strategist, the world's greatest detective, master of every major science, the best so and so, unparalleled blah blah blah is like saying that Superman is strong enough to throw a planet. It's just too much! :eek:

[TJ Shoun]

*sigh*

You guys and your Supes vs. Bats arguments...

And I'd like to mention that when Loeb wrote that crap about 'Clark being a good person, but Bruce is not' (paraphrasing) it was just that -- crap.

Bruce is a good person. He's a hero. He's risked his own life a plethora of times over for innocent people. He's dedicated his life to assure that no innocent person has to go through those feelings of pain, anguish, and helplessness that he did as a child.

Yeah, he's a prick and an obsessive loner. But being a dick and good human being aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, especially in this case.

[SITHLORD]

*sigh*

You guys and your Supes vs. Bats arguments...

And I'd like to mention that when Loeb wrote that crap about 'Clark being a good person, but Bruce is not' (paraphrasing) it was just that -- crap.

Bruce is a good person. He's a hero. He's risked his own life a plethora of times over for innocent people. He's dedicated his life to assure that no innocent person has to go through those feelings of pain, anguish, and helplessness that he did as a child.

Yeah, he's a prick and an obsessive loner. But being a dick and good human being aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, especially in this case.

I have to agree with that. If Bruce was not a good person deep down, he would never have done some of the things that he has in life. He never would have taken in Dick or been so distraught when Jason died. I dislike these notions that he has no emotion. He is a person driven almost exclusively by rage and the thirst for revenge, not just against his parents killer, but evil and injustice. Deep down, even thought he would NEVER admit it, he is a good person.

I hope.

[SITHLORD]

Yeah, there' s just a huge difference in asking me to believe something almost completely based in fantasy like the idea of a flying alien living on Earth. And asking me to believe that Batman is totally human without powers while giving him a list of mastered skills so extensive that it defies logic. Saying that Batman in a normal human lifeline has mastered every martial art, and at the same time he is the world best strategist, the world's greatest detective, master of every major science, the best so and so, unparalleled blah blah blah is like saying that Superman is strong enough to throw a planet. It's just too much! :eek:

Listen, you cannot try and compare anything that has a basis in reality with something form a comic book universe. It is lunacy to even attempt it. "Superman throwing a planet." Come on, that is not even a fair comparison. You have real life, and then you have fiction. Dont try and compare variables from the two against each other. It will only make you look foolish.

[Senormac]

I think Clark , since he is really an alien cannot be as good as Bruce

[Headhunter]

Batman barely sleeps, lives to train and fight crime, and learned under some of the finest masters in history; it's not totally implausible.

[SITHLORD]

Batman barely sleeps, lives to train and fight crime, and learned under some of the finest masters in history; it's not totally implausible.

EXACTLY! In a comic book universe, where anything can happen, Bruce's mastery of the skills is not so hard to believe.

[Guts/Batman]

EXACTLY! In a comic book universe, where anything can happen, Bruce's mastery of the skills is not so hard to believe.

But it's the fact that DC is pushing Batman as being not metahuman, that makes it harder to believe. It would be accepted far easier if DC finally said he was metahuman.

DC should stop pretending that Batman isn't a metahuman. He is blatently a metahuman.

[Converge]

And I'd like to mention that when Loeb wrote that crap about 'Clark being a good person, but Bruce is not' (paraphrasing) it was just that -- crap.

Bruce is a good person. He's a hero. He's risked his own life a plethora of times over for innocent people. He's dedicated his life to assure that no innocent person has to go through those feelings of pain, anguish, and helplessness that he did as a child.

Yeah, he's a prick and an obsessive loner. But being a dick and good human being aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, especially in this case.

I disagree, I always thought of Bruce as becoming a crime fighter, not necessarily because he wants to do good, but because he has a pathological need to punish evil stemming from the trauma of having his parents murdered in front of him.

Exacting vengeance is not something a good man would do.

In The Watchmen, Rorschach saved a lot of innocent people. But would you consider him a good man?

[Guts/Batman]

Or how about Eddie Brock-Venom?

[Alan2099]

Spider-man is the everyday Joe. he tries to do good, but ends up making tough choices all while being late for work, forgetting to pick up the milk at the store, and getting yelled at by his boss on a dailey basis.

Superman is the ideal. He's the great guy that everybody looks up to.

Batman is what not to do. He's so clsoe to the edge that the Atom can hardly edge in there. He typcially spends time brooding about how is the the Night, the terror, the vengence, the blah blah blah. He pushes anybody that cares for him away and routinely calls their best efforts not good enough. He's destroyed his own real life and killed any semblance of the man his father wanted him to be. He's paranoid. He's anti-social, and he nails corpses to the wall. (Well, okay, it was just one corpse, but that's still not saying much for him.)

Let's not even get into his "I'm the master at everything that's ever been created, I can go with only one hour of sleep a night, and I'm just an urban legend despite being filmed, hanging out with the JLA, and having a big old Bat symbol shined up in the sky."

[SITHLORD]

But it's the fact that DC is pushing Batman as being not metahuman, that makes it harder to believe. It would be accepted far easier if DC finally said he was metahuman.

DC should stop pretending that Batman isn't a metahuman. He is blatently a metahuman.

Metahuman, what the cool kids call mutants these days, huh? I'll give Marvel that, at least mutant sounds better than "metahuman".

Now I want to make sure I've got this right, just for clarification for everyone one the board. You are saying Batman is a "metahuman."

I must have been reading your post wrong, right?

[Mia]

BATMAN, man among men.

Ahh...you summed it up so nicely. :)

[boy wonder]

Batman is great because he doesn't have super-powers, but he hands Superman his ass on several occasions.

Superman is one of those people who needs to get his ass handed to him by a human every now and then. Keeps things in perspective.

[TJ Shoun]

Batman is great because he doesn't have super-powers, but he hands Superman his ass on several occasions.

Superman is one of those people who needs to get his ass handed to him by a human every now and then. Keeps things in perspective.


You read the last issue of Adventures of Superman? :p

Supes definitively smacked Bruce around. Bats is a vegetable in the Watchtower right now -- he's nearly dead.


I disagree, I always thought of Bruce as becoming a crime fighter, not necessarily because he wants to do good, but because he has a pathological need to punish evil stemming from the trauma of having his parents murdered in front of him.

Exacting vengeance is not something a good man would do.

In The Watchmen, Rorschach saved a lot of innocent people. But would you consider him a good man?

Rorschach? No.

I wouldn't call the Punisher a "good person" either.

But you have to admit, their methods are drastically different from Batman's.

Bruce doesn't kill and he isn't excessively violent, unlike both guys mentioned above. I think the problem is the broad interpretation and vague parameters defined for the term "good person."

Is it a requirement for someone to be polite, sociable, and well-adjusted before they can be a good person. If so, then he's not of course.

Despite his disposition, I think Bruce wants the world to be a better place and he wants to minimize human suffering and protect the innocent. Granted his motivations for doing so may be different from that of Clark or the rest of the League - but I don't think that exempts him from being a hero.

(I'm using the term "hero" and "good person" interchangably here, 'cuz I don't see how someone could be one and not the other. I think it all boils down to how you define "good person". Apparently I disagree with Jeph Loeb too.) :o

[Guts/Batman]

Metahuman, what the cool kids call mutants these days, huh? I'll give Marvel that, at least mutant sounds better than "metahuman".

Now I want to make sure I've got this right, just for clarification for everyone one the board. You are saying Batman is a "metahuman."

I must have been reading your post wrong, right?

Meta-human = Superhuman in DC. Some are mutants, some are not.

While it is true that he cannot fly, cannot throw moons, cannot mind read or anything associated with "metahuman-ish" powers.

He seems to have superhuman abilities. So while he isn't a WW or Superman level metahuman, he is a low level metahuman.

How does one master EVERY style of combat known to man? Oh, and do it in 20 years. I'm not talking high level metahuman powers, low ones.

And I am not alone in this thinking.

[TJ Shoun]

Meta-human = Superhuman in DC. Some are mutants, some are not.

While it is true that he cannot fly, cannot throw moons, cannot mind read or anything associated with "metahuman-ish" powers.

He seems to have superhuman abilities. So while he isn't a WW or Superman level metahuman, he is a low level metahuman.

How does one master EVERY style of combat known to man? Oh, and do it in 20 years. I'm not talking high level metahuman powers, low ones.

And I am not alone in this thinking.


:confused:

Batman has reached the pinnacle of human development, physically and mentally -- but that's a huge difference in having some sort of unnatural enhancement or powers.

Hell, if you wanna get liberal with the word, you could almost say Deathstroke or Captain America are superhuman -- at least they've had enhancement procedures over and above their already rigorous training even though they have no powers, per se. But not Bruce.

Superhero? yeah
Superhuman? no

big difference

[Kieralinn]

Why is he the greatest?

Because he's freakin' Batman, that's why!

Ok...seriously.

He's intelligent as hell, great strategic mind (the best), one of the most skilled martial artists, has the coolest toys, doesn't have any "super-powers", and has a whole lot of emotional baggage. There is a real depth to his character, even when he is being "Bat-Jerk". Underneth all the stand-offishness (is that even a word?) and the harshness towards his "friends" and loved ones.....he's got an incredible heart. He wouldn't do what he did every night if he didn't have real compassion towards people.

2 things stick in my mind to that last point. 1) In Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive when he stops by to do the next chess move with Harvey while he's locked up and says "You'll find out tomorrow night", that showed his heart and compassion for his old friend, that he goes there every night to play chess with him at exactly the same time. Small moment...but shows a lot.
And 2) Even though it's DCAU (still counts), that whole scene with Ace in "Epilogue". Holding her hand and staying with her while she died....that's why he's the greatest!

He may be the biggest bad-ass, but that compassion he has and the way he rips into and blames himself for even one death he feels he could have prevented. That's what I love about Batman. His complexity.

Plus the fact that he's 6'2". 225lbs of muscle, has black hair, blue eyes and is incredibly HOT doesn't hurt either. ;)

[Guts/Batman]

:confused:

Batman has reached the pinnacle of human development, physically and mentally -- but that's a huge difference in having some sort of unnatural enhancement or powers.

Hell, if you wanna get liberal with the word, you could almost say Deathstroke or Captain America are superhuman -- at least they've had enhancement procedures over and above their already rigorous training even though they have no powers, per se. But not Bruce.

Superhero? yeah
Superhuman? no

big difference

I guess, I'm not getting at the physical part. More of the mental part.

But you are right, in general.

[Converge]

:confused:

Batman has reached the pinnacle of human development, physically and mentally -- but that's a huge difference in having some sort of unnatural enhancement or powers.

Hell, if you wanna get liberal with the word, you could almost say Deathstroke or Captain America are superhuman -- at least they've had enhancement procedures over and above their already rigorous training even though they have no powers, per se. But not Bruce.

Superhero? yeah
Superhuman? no

big difference


I'm not sure about Deathstroke, but people already call Captain America superhuman because he was enhanced by the super-soldier serum.

And no matter how you try to justify it, it's utterly impossible for a normal human being to do the things that Batman does.

[Glen Pawley]

To be fair, Bruce Wayne is very very rich, so a strong case can be made that he can have trained faster than just about anyone else in human history because of the superb combination of resources and determination he applied. Realistically, he is a bit too good in just about everything to classify as a 'normal human being', but DC will NEVER say that Batman is metahuman in general continuity. Put simply, 90% of Batman's appeal as a character is the fact that he is just a normal human or at least just a normal human with only a moderate suspension of belief. If they made him officially metahuman, the character would die.

[Alan2099]

Money doesn't help you train faster. I don't care how rich you are, you can't master 15 martiala rts in a couple of years.

[PrimalScream]

And no matter how you try to justify it, it's utterly impossible for a normal human being to do the things that Batman does.

i did them last night :D

[TJ Shoun]

I'm not sure about Deathstroke, but people already call Captain America superhuman because he was enhanced by the super-soldier serum.

In the military, Slade underwent an experiment to reinforce a soldier's resistance to truth serums -- and somehow came out with juiced-up strength, stamina, endurance, agility, and intelligence plus immortality... and a physiology guaranteed to never need Viagra.


And no matter how you try to justify it, it's utterly impossible for a normal human being to do the things that Batman does.

It's also impossible for even really great abs took show up through tight spandex but that's why we love comics.

[SITHLORD]

You read the last issue of Adventures of Superman? :p

Supes definitively smacked Bruce around. Bats is a vegetable in the Watchtower right now -- he's nearly dead.



The ONLY reason that Supes gave him a beatdown was that Clark caught Bruce unawares. If Superman just chooses to walk up to someone and proceed to beat them down, there is very little most in the Dc uni could do about it. However, if Bruce had any idea that he was going to have to confront Clark, he would have been FAR better prepared. There was no way he could know that Clark was under Maxwell Lord's control.

[SITHLORD]

To be fair, Bruce Wayne is very very rich, so a strong case can be made that he can have trained faster than just about anyone else in human history because of the superb combination of resources and determination he applied. Realistically, he is a bit too good in just about everything to classify as a 'normal human being', but DC will NEVER say that Batman is metahuman in general continuity. Put simply, 90% of Batman's appeal as a character is the fact that he is just a normal human or at least just a normal human with only a moderate suspension of belief. If they made him officially metahuman, the character would die.

The day that DC says that Bats was a metahuman, it would be the beginning of the end, for far more than just the Batman character. HE IS HUMAN. Period.

This whole mess of him being a metahuman is foolish.

[Elevation]

Batman is the most classic of characters. It could be said that be has really ste the bar for alot of heroes today. He is so close to the edge himself, I mean what kind os mental stress would cause someone to dawn the costume of a Bat and go around just kicking ass. He lives by a very strict set of moral codes wich is reall ywhat sets him apart from the bad guys he faces.

And Batman/Bruce Wayne is the character we always hope will catch a break, it seems he can save the world a hundred times over but he never seems to be the winner. Even Spiderman was eventually given Mary Jane.

So the real interest in Batmanis our hope that one day he wont have to be Batman anymore and just be a happy citizen of Gotham. But then again that would be the saddest day in the historoy of the DC universe so it will never happen.

[Alan2099]

The day that DD said that Bats was a metahuman, it would be the beginning of the end, for far more than just the Batman character. HE IS HUMAN. Period.

This whole mess of him being a metahuman is foolish.
About as foolish as him being the best at everything in the world. They really need to tone down his skills.

Giving him back a bit of personality wouldn't hurt either.

[Mainline]

Immature? I don't think I've heard anyone call Batman that.

If the shoe fits. Batman is defined by a 8-year old's grudge. No normal human (read: indentifiable/relatable) has baggage like that and lacks the maturity to get past it.

"Batman doesn't use his wealth or technology to maxmimize his own abilities or the safety of others". Have you at any point actually sat down and read a Batman comic.

Yes, I have. Bruce Wayne is rich enough to build a rebuild a city brick by brick, with that kind of money he could easily fund a BETTER Gotham version of Metropolis's SCU, whom are capable of taking on metahuman crime without capes... instead he funds a bunch of non-metas who had difficulty when Scarface or Atomic Skull show up. He also has access to a wealth of high-end technologies- cloaking devices, anti-gravity belts, power armor, energy weapons of all sorts... tools that would make him more effective at saving lives if that were his mission. Instead he's using Batrangs and swinging from roof-top to roof-top risking life and limb (his cut line in Hush nearly cost him his life). Rather than being the most effective life saver, villain defeater, or crime fighter, Batman is content to save as many people as he can catch while grappling, punch thugs with his fists instead of the wide array of effective less-than-lethals available to him, not to mention all the social reforms his vast amount of money is capable of- instead, focused merely on making himself more money and funding his "bullying of criminals".

Someone reverently respected by virtually every comman citizen in Gotham.

Now I've gotta ask, who's not reading Batman? Clearly you if you think Batman's still cozy with the GCPD.

And the point of appealing to the "immature powerless teen" is just as bad. Do you understand that comic fans are a dying breed. I have read that the average comic book fans is in his 30's and 40's(I am pushing 30 myself).

"Pushing" eh? Boomerang Generation... age doesn't dictate maturity (heck, look at Batman!) generally speaking "adolescence and partial dependence on family now linger until the late 20". Adolescent and immature attitudes have the tendency to play the "blame game" instead of taking responsibility. School Shooter mentality, "I'm miserable because of them, therefore they deserve it."

SO how do you surmise that his "brooding lonerism" is not a reflection of how the real world works.

Quite simply his drive and success. Brooding loners would not have the same level of inhuman drive as Batman. Immature people acting out of a child's grudge do not have the capacity for a will of Batman's level. Nor would such people be successful.

Another reason Batman taps into the immature angsty teen is that he's always right. He's "proof" that you can be a successful anti-social person, judging and critical, yet ALWAYS be right. The loner, of course, has the complex that they know better, and Batman's success appeals to that fiction. The reality is that "as iron sharpens iron, so one man improves another". It's by interacting with other people and overcoming differences, accepting ideas, bouncing thoughts, etc. off of each other that humans are truly successful.


To try and tell me that we are all great morraly perfect people is crap. I know of one perfect person, and he died on a cross long ago for you an I. But we are all deep down nothing like Clark. NOTHING. None of us would sacrifice ourselves for random strangers.

Guess there's no such thing as police officers, firefighters, soldiers, missionaries, medics, or any other number of people who sacrifice their own safety- not to mention lives- for others (most parents, easily).

It has nothing to do with "perfection" but attitude. A lot of people (many who follow that guy on a cross, a lot who don't) do their best in this world with what they have. If you had some more immigrant friends, perhaps you could appreciate that more. Rich people like Bruce and AFFORD to indulge their compulsions/grudges, whereas people like Spider-Man are doing their best with the gifts given to them, something that happens a million times over every day every where.

Now as to why Superman doesn't just swoop in an bring Utopia to the world or impose Kryptonian technology upon the planet to end world hunger and disease, it's because Superman has to walk that fine line between paternalism and inspiration, a lesson that a lot of adults/parents have to learn as well. It's easy to step in and clean your kids messes for them, or provide for them their every want and need, but in the end it can cause more long term immaturity problems than good (part of the reason there is the Boomerang Generation). Batman, lacking such power, doesn't have such a restriction on his mission, making his lack of action with his resources contradictory to his claimed purposes.


Do you really not believe that a person of unbreakable will and determination would not sculpt themselves into essentially a perfect biological machine.

1. You've already backpedaled on this one and said it only works in the comic books.
2. Again the source of his unbreakable will is a human impossibility. Driven by a love or a relationship, it's possible... not by a singular wound.

To be honest with everyone, I am disgusted after reading that post.

Honestly, as Batman is currently written, I'm disgusted he's an object of worship. When he used to be honorable, sociable, and fighting for justice to the extend of his abilities, resources, and technology... when he was a Knight... he was certainly admirable as a hero. Right now he's interesting mostly as an example of abnormal psychology.

[TJ Shoun]

About as foolish as him being the best at everything in the world. They really need to tone down his skills.

Giving him back a bit of personality wouldn't hurt either.

Batman should be intimidating and uber-resourceful, but I agree that he should be scaled back a bit.

He's like Wolverine in the Marvel Universe... as of the last few years both characters have gradually become unbeatable, which lessens the amount of reader empathy and ultimately makes them less relatable.

I'm mean, when's the last time you saw Logan or Bruce in any kind of fight (superpowered or no) and actually worried that they might get beaten or hurt?

[TJ Shoun]

Honestly, as Batman is currently written, I'm disgusted he's an object of worship. When he used to be honorable, sociable, and fighting for justice to the extend of his abilities, resources, and technology... when he was a Knight... he was certainly admirable as a hero. Right now he's interesting mostly as an example of abnormal psychology.


...which is fascinating when you look at how his presence completely alters the team dynamic in the JLA and even the DCU as a whole.

As I said earlier, Batman is interesting because of the context within he plays in the DCU. He puts everything in perspective and offers a relative viewpoint that's tough to come by in that Universe.

But I will agree that by himself (i.e. in his own books, removed from the team dynamic with less outside interaction) I don't find the character as appealing.

Batman by himself I can give or take, but I always wanna see his interplay with others -- that, I find utterly compelling for whatever reason... kinda like when Hal and Bruce had the stare down/altercation during Green Lantern:Rebirth. I love stuff like that.

[SITHLORD]

If the shoe fits. Batman is defined by a 8-year old's grudge. No normal human (read: indentifiable/relatable) has baggage like that and lacks the maturity to get past it..

And I'm quite sure both of your parents were gunned down in cold blood before your 8 year old eyes. Therefore you are an expert in the matter, and highly qualified to comment on the baggage and lack of maturity that comes with it. A pleasure to have a professional in our midst.



Now I've gotta ask, who's not reading Batman? Clearly you if you think Batman's still cozy with the GCPD..

Since when is the comman everyday citizen also definable as being a cop. Read a little more before you comment. On the whole, most of the older respected officer's appreciate Batmans help, albeit reluctantly. I just didn't realize that all citizens of Gotham are badge wearing GCPD officers. My mistake I guess, huh?



"Pushing" eh? Boomerang Generation... age doesn't dictate maturity (heck, look at Batman!) generally speaking "adolescence and partial dependence on family now linger until the late 20". Adolescent and immature attitudes have the tendency to play the "blame game" instead of taking responsibility. School Shooter mentality, "I'm miserable because of them, therefore they deserve it.".

What is the point in throwing out random terms that have no basis in the reality of the discussion. Here I am making a point about the shrinking fan base for comics, and suddenly we are discussing "Boomerang Generation. No, age obviously does not factor into all discussions.



Quite simply his drive and success. Brooding loners would not have the same level of inhuman drive as Batman. Immature people acting out of a child's grudge do not have the capacity for a will of Batman's level. Nor would such people be successful..

I'm still amused that the loss of both parents and the continuing grief over the incident is considered a "childish grudge." Brooding loners have some of the most intensive will of most people that I have studied. Simply put, single minded determination. They are more focused and intent on thier goal than most of us will ever be, whether it be healthy for their overall mental state or not. But some one with an attitude of "oh, well, I'll fight crime tomorrow" would not last a second in half of the situations that Bats puts himself in.

Another reason Batman taps into the immature angsty teen is that he's always right. He's "proof" that you can be a successful anti-social person, judging and critical, yet ALWAYS be right. The loner, of course, has the complex that they know better, and Batman's success appeals to that fiction. The reality is that "as iron sharpens iron, so one man improves another". It's by interacting with other people and overcoming differences, accepting ideas, bouncing thoughts, etc. off of each other that humans are truly successful..

No, thats the great thing. Bats isn't always right. He just rarely admits it when he is wrong. There is a very finite difference there. Where does it say to improve yourself, be it mind or body, that you have to rely upon others to accomplish that. Each human is completely different, like a snowflake. There is no standard, or 1 mold that we are all created from. If so, our world would be a very boring place indeed. Some of the strongest leaders in history relied on no one but themself.


Guess there's no such thing as police officers, firefighters, soldiers, missionaries, medics, or any other number of people who sacrifice their own safety- not to mention lives- for others (most parents, easily)..

Gimme a break. While I have the UTMOST respect for all of the various types of people that you have mentioned, I don't believe that they think "I will step on front of this car and save a life. PLEASE. They are all extremely devoted to their respective professions I'm sure. But they operate with the hope and knowledge that they can save a life, and their own skins. Not sacrifice something just to be doing. And missionaries are driven by a higher calling, with the knowledge that they are doiing a holy work. If you are trying to tell me that you would step in front of a speeding trucj for someone that you have never met, I am telling you that you are full of it. You would stand there frozen in shock and watch them die like 99.9% of the rest of the worlds population. So while I repsect law enforement, medics, and the like, a very rare percentage of them are the saints that you try to paint them as.

It has nothing to do with "perfection" but attitude. A lot of people (many who follow that guy on a cross, a lot who don't) do their best in this world with what they have. If you had some more immigrant friends, perhaps you could appreciate that more. Rich people like Bruce and AFFORD to indulge their compulsions/grudges, whereas people like Spider-Man are doing their best with the gifts given to them, something that happens a million times over every day every where..

That is too much. Tell me, what nationality am I? What race? What sex? You can't. So how can you tell whether or not I have "immigrant friends", and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China. How do you have any idea what sort of cluster of friends that I have. Wait, so because some people might be blessed with a better standing in society, or a larger bank account, they are automatically more morally corrupt than people on welfare. Is that the point that you are trying to make? Because someone has nore money, they are less of a person than one who doesn't.

WOW! Thanks for educating me on that one.


Honestly, as Batman is currently written, I'm disgusted he's an object of worship. When he used to be honorable, sociable, and fighting for justice to the extend of his abilities, resources, and technology... when he was a Knight... he was certainly admirable as a hero. Right now he's interesting mostly as an example of abnormal psychology.

In a word, tough. I don't like all comic characters either. Personally, I can't stand Spiderman. But I also don't climb on a soap box and try and use it to preach why he is "an example of abnormal psychology." Peter Parker is every bit as much of a head case as Bruce. But he has just as large of a fan base as Batman, and always will. Batman appeals to a certain portion of the population(your "immature group", I belive it was.)

One question out of curiosity. If Batman disgusts you so, why are you in the Batman forum, obviously enjoying posting in it so much.

[Alan2099]

Batman should be intimidating and uber-resourceful, but I agree that he should be scaled back a bit.

He's like Wolverine in the Marvel Universe... as of the last few years both characters have gradually become unbeatable, which lessens the amount of reader empathy and ultimately makes them less relatable.

I'm mean, when's the last time you saw Logan or Bruce in any kind of fight (superpowered or no) and actually worried that they might get beaten or hurt?
I just read the Batman in the 80s Tradepaperback today, and I have to say, THAT was a darn good Batman. He had friends. Hobbies. he spent time as Bruce Wayne. He appreciated people. He knew he was human and knew that he could make mistakes. he got into fights and got his butt kicked from time to time. he was still smart and clever. he could still solves mysteries and figure things oput by himself without having to call in Oracle. He was hard but fair. He frightend criminals but was well respected by the general population.

Whatever happened to that guy?

[SITHLORD]

I just read the Batman in the 80s Tradepaperback today, and I have to say, THAT was a darn good Batman. He had friends. Hobbies. he spent time as Bruce Wayne. He appreciated people. He knew he was human and knew that he could make mistakes. he got into fights and got his butt kicked from time to time. he was still smart and clever. he could still solves mysteries and figure things oput by himself without having to call in Oracle. He was hard but fair. He frightend criminals but was well respected by the general population.

Whatever happened to that guy?

In a way, you're right. I actually like Bat Jerk, but that particular attitude just appeals to me more. But the Batman you are describing wasn't that bad either.

[Guts/Batman]

About as foolish as him being the best at everything in the world. They really need to tone down his skills.

Giving him back a bit of personality wouldn't hurt either.

That's what I am thinking. If he isn't metahuman, how the hell is the best at everything in the world.

He is blatently metahuman (as is Cassandra).

DC just doesn't say he is. If they expect us to believe he is not a metahuman, DC must tone down his skills.

I don't think it would be the deathnell of Batman if he found out he was a metahuman. If done right, I think it would be a pretty interesting arc to read.

Keep in mind that when you say "HE IS HUMAN!" Wally West is as well, Hal Jordan is too. I could go on and on.

[SITHLORD]

If anyone at DC sees this, they will have a heart attack. To be blunt, to call Batman a metahuman is lunacy. And there is no hard evidence to back it up. Give me a particular issue where someone states he is. Give me an issue where he says he is. Show me where one of the writers says,

"Well, you know, since Bats is a Metahuman after all."

You can't. These instances don't exist. I mean really, there interesting debate, and then you hit a point where it just goes to far, and people feel like they have to defend their point of view to the death. You guys have officially passed that point a LONG time back in this thread. Batman is a human being, driven to excellence. Period. You cannot show proof otherwise, other than your pure conjecture.

[Guts/Batman]

If the people at DC were to look at this thread and have a heart attack, then they better stay FAR away from the Death of Comics thread on the rumbles board. They would have about 20 heart attacks at the same time.

And most of us would probably cheer at their funerals.

Besides, it doesn't need to say that he is a metahuman in any comic to tell us that he is or is not. How we can tell is from what he does in the comic.

And what I have seen from him lately, he is blatently metahuman. Cassandra is blatently metahuman as well.

If his body isn't metahuman, his brain sure as hell is.

[SITHLORD]

If the people at DC were to look at this thread and have a heart attack, then they better stay FAR away from the Death of Comics thread on the rumbles board. They would have about 20 heart attacks at the same time.

And most of us would probably cheer at their funerals.

Besides, it doesn't need to say that he is a metahuman in any comic to tell us that he is or is not. How we can tell is from what he does in the comic.

And what I have seen from him lately, he is blatently metahuman. Cassandra is blatently metahuman as well.

If his body isn't metahuman, his brain sure as hell is.

Thank you for being honest enough to prove my point for me. You have no proof, cannot provide proof, but still feel it necessary to try and prove your point. Even though it has no basis in fact.

:evilsmile

Nice try.

[Guts/Batman]

I guess, I am looking at this with my "rumbles" eyes on. I don't really go by that. I go by feats.

And many feats point to him being a low level metahuman.

Or at least his brain, a brain must have the capability to be able to learn what he can learn. His brain must be better than everyone else's to be able to know the stuff he knows and to do what he does.

His physical appearance can be changed by constantly staying fit. However, the one part of his body that cannot be changed is his brain.

[kane]

If anyone at DC sees this, they will have a heart attack. To be blunt, to call Batman a metahuman is lunacy. And there is no hard evidence to back it up. Give me a particular issue where someone states he is. Give me an issue where he says he is. Show me where one of the writers says,

"Well, you know, since Bats is a Metahuman after all."

You can't. These instances don't exist. I mean really, there interesting debate, and then you hit a point where it just goes to far, and people feel like they have to defend their point of view to the death. You guys have officially passed that point a LONG time back in this thread. Batman is a human being, driven to excellence. Period. You cannot show proof otherwise, other than your pure conjecture.

If you see someone flying i a comic you know he is meta, even without someone saying it. If you see someone lifting tons, you know it too. Thats the proof.

And if you see Batman doing thing, no one (not even a perfect human) is able too, thats the proof. Nobody needs to say it.

He heals very fast - with his injuries he should be a cripple. In Hush he healed in what - a few months?
He mastered too many fighting skills.
He knows every scientific theory, no matter how absurd.
etc.

Does he need to sleep?

Even a perfect humans is bound by the law of physics and time. The days has only 24 hours and even if you sleep only 4 hours a day, its still not enough time to do all the things Batman does.

They could just say he is a low level meta or power him down.

[Alan2099]

Does he need to sleep?

Even a perfect humans is bound by the law of physics and time. The days has only 24 hours and even if you sleep only 4 hours a day, its still not enough time to do all the things Batman does.
If I remember correctly, Batman only needs a single Hour of sleep due to some crazy mental disicple he has.

Now, with Batgirl's skills, she's often listed as a meta, jumping company to marvel, Ironfist, who's abilites come purely from his training is a Marvel (it's what they can non-mutant superhumans in the Marvel Universe). Likewise, Dr. Strnage trained to get his powers.

Now if trainign can give you powers, and Batman has trained to be the best there is at everything that exists (except for social skills), why can't he be called a meta.

Actually now that I think about it, if he's been trying to run on only an hour of sleep a day for this long, it might explain why he's starting to go nuts. I mean, sheesh, it's getting so the Punisher is a more fully functional human being. At least Frank openly admits that he's crazy and doing a horrible thing, but he's still got hobbies, intrests, and is capable of makign friends (although he prefers not to.)

[SITHLORD]

Now, with Batgirl's skills, she's often listed as a meta, jumping company to marvel, Ironfist, who's abilites come purely from his training is a Marvel (it's what they can non-mutant superhumans in the Marvel Universe). Likewise, Dr. Strnage trained to get his powers.

Now if trainign can give you powers, and Batman has trained to be the best there is at everything that exists (except for social skills), why can't he be called a meta.

I think there is a huge difference in training for magical and mystical abilities vs. conditioning of the body and mind. There is a real thiin line there, but I think that is different.


Actually now that I think about it, if he's been trying to run on only an hour of sleep a day for this long, it might explain why he's starting to go nuts. I mean, sheesh, it's getting so the Punisher is a more fully functional human being. At least Frank openly admits that he's crazy and doing a horrible thing, but he's still got hobbies, intrests, and is capable of makign friends (although he prefers not to.)

Thats a bit of a stretch. Frank Castle is a deranged lunatic bent on "punishing" criminals. Batman is at least trying to serve the public good. And in all honesty, if he is a little stressed out, its pretty understandable. With his anger over being mind-wiped, and the mess with the OMAC situation, Bats has a lot on his plate, and it hasn't all been put there by him.

[TJ Shoun]

DC has never explicity stated or even half-ass implied that Bruce Wayne is anything more than a disciplined, driven, and highly trained regular human being.

Granted, he is an extraordinarily genetically gifted person. Even without his parents' murder to drive him to perfection, he still woulda turned out to be very athletic and incredibly intelligent -- even if all he ever did was lie by the pool, drink champagne, and have group sex with famous models and actresses all day.

Bruce was destined to be special regardless of the environment and circumstances that shaped him.

Such is the random role of the genetic dice.

But he's still just a human being.

Michael Jordan was an exceptional basketball player, Schwarzenegger was a phenomenally gifted bodybuilder, Benjamin Franklin was an amazingly multi-talented statesman, author, and inventor -- but they were still just people.

Unless the DC Encyclopedia or Who's Who lists Ben Franklin a metahuman result of a S.T.A.R Labs experiment. Somebody doublecheck me. ;)

[Guts/Batman]

If you see someone flying i a comic you know he is meta, even without someone saying it. If you see someone lifting tons, you know it too. Thats the proof.

And if you see Batman doing thing, no one (not even a perfect human) is able too, thats the proof. Nobody needs to say it.

He heals very fast - with his injuries he should be a cripple. In Hush he healed in what - a few months?
He mastered too many fighting skills.
He knows every scientific theory, no matter how absurd.
etc.

Does he need to sleep?

Even a perfect humans is bound by the law of physics and time. The days has only 24 hours and even if you sleep only 4 hours a day, its still not enough time to do all the things Batman does.

They could just say he is a low level meta or power him down.

I agree with this completely.

I'm not trying to say his is mid level meta, if anything he is a low level.

Why DC expects us to believe Batman isn't a meta with what skills they write him with, I don't know.

[TJ Shoun]

I agree with this completely.

I'm not trying to say his is mid level meta, if anything he is a low level.

Why DC expects us to believe Batman isn't a meta with what skills they write him with, I don't know.


Then power him down.

(Which I think they should do anyway.) :)

Because I promise -- DC will never even partially imply that Bruce has any sort of superhuman edge, even a very minor one. Because he ostensibly doesn't and never will.

And if they did... you thought Marvel caught a lot of crap over the Spider Clone Saga? :eek:

[Sandy Hausler]

I have a running debate with one of my friends over who is the greatest super-hero of all time. He says Superman, and it's pretty hard to argue that point. But her is my point of view.

Batman the character in so many complex ways it's amazing. He has had multiple incarnations. But in a world of people with magical power rings, invunerability, suits of armor, and magic lassos, Batman must rely on that which is a far greater weapon, his mind. The mind is the most powerful weapon in the universe, not Lanterns ring.

The Batman character over the years has adapted to every situation and crisis that has arisen to face him. Whether it be facing off against so multiple adversaries in "Hush", or solving a protracted case in "Long Halloween". Or perhaps his (brace yourselves) beatdown of Superman in "The Dark Knight Returns". Batman is in mmy opinion as indestructible as Kal-El in many ways.

I just finished re-reading the "Tower of Babel" series from JLA, and that is as good an explanation as any. Batman is the ultimate contingency planner. Always know how to bring everyone down around you, BECAUSE YOU JUST NEVER KNOW. Now I can appreciate that train of thoought, because I'm not the most trusting person myself. But can you imagine how hard it must be to be prepared to take out your friends(or in Bruce's case, the closest thing he has to one in Clark), and just accept it? That is in my opinion a badass.

Oh, and the fact he is unmatched in hand-to-hand(yeah you Cap and Wolvie people) sure doesn't hurt.

BATMAN, man among men.

You know, I'm going to take issue with this even though it's probably not popular.

Back in the early 40s, there were a lot of characters just like Batman -- masked non-powered heroes. Some even came before Batman (i.e., Crimson Avenger). The Batman was nothing special. He was just the one that caught on and lasted. As anyone with a knowledge of the history of Batman knows, Batman has been different things at different times. Right now, he's the jerk, but there were times when he was a science fiction/fantasy character (complete with Batmite, bless his heart), a pulp-type hero, a more cerebral detective type and a super-hero without powers.

That's not to say that Batman was ever bad (though there have been times when he's been bad, in my opinion), but he's lucky.

And he's not alone. How money flag-based heroes were there in that period. Why is Captain America the only one people remember? (He wasn't even the first -- The Shield preceded him!) It's luck.

Sandy Hausler

[SITHLORD]

Unless the DC Encyclopedia or Who's Who lists Ben Franklin a metahuman result of a S.T.A.R Labs experiment. Somebody doublecheck me. ;)

You know, you just may be right. The whole deal with the kite may have been a bit too much for anyone but at least a "low level metahuman".
:D

[TJ Shoun]

You know, you just may be right. The whole deal with the kite may have been a bit too much for anyone but at least a "low level metahuman".
:D


Hell, maybe the kite experiment was how he got his metahuman powers.

Y'know... a little electric shock to the frontal lobe and all the sudden Benny's writin' Constitutions, runnin' for Prez, and shootin' plasma beams outta his eyes.

Ben Franklin, Sentinel of Liberty

[TJ Shoun]

It's luck.

Partially - but not completely.

I still say there's something endearing about characters that've been around for 50+ years despite tons of analogues and imitators.

[Guts/Batman]

Originally posted by Literalky Exaggerated on the rumles board.

Batman is blatantly superhuman. Reaching the absolute peak of theoretical human ability in every human discipline including conditioning, to the point where you are stronger than someone who spent their life weight-training, faster than a person whose life is sprinting, more capable with computers than even the best hacker, better at analytical thinking than the smartest person of all time, etc. Is completely, utterly impossible. Moreover, in a number of disciplines Batman has reached a level which far exceeds what even the best real world specialists are capable of, such as his accuracy with thrown objects, or his strength or fighting ability.

[SITHLORD]

Originally posted by Literalky Exaggerated on the rumles board.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have now officially started to research information and use others posts because we can no longer argue our own point.

;)

[Guts/Batman]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have now officially started to research information and use others posts because we can no longer argue our own point.

;)

Nevermind.

Oh, I can argue my own point but please tell me how he can do those things in that post without him being a metahuman?

[powergirl]

You know, I'm going to take issue with this even though it's probably not popular.

Back in the early 40s, there were a lot of characters just like Batman -- masked non-powered heroes. Some even came before Batman (i.e., Crimson Avenger). The Batman was nothing special. He was just the one that caught on and lasted. As anyone with a knowledge of the history of Batman knows, Batman has been different things at different times. Right now, he's the jerk, but there were times when he was a science fiction/fantasy character (complete with Batmite, bless his heart), a pulp-type hero, a more cerebral detective type and a super-hero without powers.

That's not to say that Batman was ever bad (though there have been times when he's been bad, in my opinion), but he's lucky.

And he's not alone. How money flag-based heroes were there in that period. Why is Captain America the only one people remember? (He wasn't even the first -- The Shield preceded him!) It's luck.

Sandy Hausler


or it's the fact that marvel only brought back captain america in the 60's when comics had it's second golden age.. aka the silver age...

do you think if DC hadbrought back the original golden age characters instead of the reboots would they have been as popular today or would we see a lot of dead characters and legacy characters like huntress and robin-2?

[TJ Shoun]

That shows I am not the only one who thinks this way.

He blatently superhuman.

I can argue my own point fine.


*sigh*

1. Bruce Wayne isn't superhuman. For the 3rd time, DC has never even implied that Bats is superhuman -- not in any comic book nor any reference/encyclopedia/bio description ever.

2. And there's certainly nothing blatant about it if he is. What are his specific powers then? How did he get them? Where did they come from?

3. Making Batman a metahuman, even a low-level one, would completely ruin the character. One of the appealing motifs surrounding the Batman origin and mythos is that a regular person can become more than nature intended if the motivation is there and their strength of will is strong enough. It's a story of nurture beating nature -- the variables we can control overcoming the variables we can't. Bruce Wayne becoming the Bat is a product of democracy and life-control in action, an exhibition of free will, domination and control of one's own destiny - as opposed to, say, being born Kryptonian and gifted with natural greatness. Instead, Bruce shaped his own destiny, made himself into perfection - it wasn't given to him. It's an empowering story, and that's why the character is fascinating to so many, and why he isn't and never will be superhuman in any form or fashion.

4. If you can show me where Dan Didio or Bob Wayne or even Eddie Berganza even alluded that Bats is metahuman, I'll glady stand corrected.

Y'know, if your argument is that Batman sometimes appears to be superhuman, then I wholeheartedly agree. He does! Which is why I say depower him a tad - make it believable (to a degree).

[Sandy Hausler]

Partially - but not completely.

I still say there's something endearing about characters that've been around for 50+ years despite tons of analogues and imitators.

Maybe, but he's been so many things over the year, it may be nothing more than name recognition.

Sandy Hausler

[SITHLORD]

Nevermind.

Oh, I can argue my own point but please tell me how he can do those things in that post without him being a metahuman?

Simply put, because he's BATMAN. Do you understand that you are reading a work of fiction. These are comic books. Not the memoirs of a retired soldier returning from a war. Fiction!

Your point has no basis. None. Zip. Nada. No facts to stand on.

You can present no proof about this farce. This debate is, in my opinion, over.

[Guts/Batman]

Just cuz he is Batman doesn't mean a damned thing.

I know it is fiction, but you don't see Mary Sue on the streets of Gotham coming back a massive Back injury and broken skull in 3 weeks do you?

Them having Batman as skilled as he is currently without being a metahuman stretches my suspension of disbelief too far.

Let's just agree to disagree. Cuz I really don't either us can change eachothers minds.

[PrimalScream]

ok everyone lets say it out loud....IT'S A BLOODY COMIC BOOK!!!!! if they made him too realistic then i doubt he would work too well they have to embelish on his abilities.exaggerate them. so if batman is metahuman in ur eyes my deluded friend then so is nightwing (since lets face it he would be in severe pain doing what he does).

[powergirl]

Just cuz he is Batman doesn't mean a damned thing.

I know it is fiction, but you don't see Mary Sue on the streets of Gotham coming back a massive Back injury and broken skull in 3 weeks do you?

Them having Batman as skilled as he is currently without being a metahuman stretches my suspension of disbelief too far.

Let's just agree to disagree. Cuz I really don't either us can change eachothers minds.


i have a theory on knightfall healing not all of you will like...
bruce went for a swim in a lazurus pit...

[Mainline]

And I'm quite sure both of your parents were gunned down in cold blood before your 8 year old eyes. Therefore you are an expert in the matter, and highly qualified to comment on the baggage and lack of maturity that comes with it. A pleasure to have a professional in our midst.

Dude. Cite a single person in the real world who's become Batman.

I'm still amused that the loss of both parents and the continuing grief over the incident is considered a "childish grudge."

Fists on the jaws of thugs is a childish grudge. Using your money to transform Gotham's society is maturity. Obviously you find it amusing because that bullying of the criminal element appeals to you.

Where does it say to improve yourself, be it mind or body, that you have to rely upon others to accomplish that. Each human is completely different, like a snowflake. There is no standard, or 1 mold that we are all created from. If so, our world would be a very boring place indeed. Some of the strongest leaders in history relied on no one but themself.

*cough* BS *cough*
... raised by wolves indeed.

Gimme a break. While I have the UTMOST respect for all of the various types of people that you have mentioned, I don't believe that they think "I will step on front of this car and save a life. PLEASE.

Maybe an immature person would summarize their duties as such, but they will clearly do their jobs for stranger... their jobs can include stepping into a hazardous fire, into the line of fire, or otherwise. Nothing as stupid as stepping in front of a car to no end. Get yourself back on point.

Superman uses his gifts for society's benefit. A soldier, firefighter, cop, teacher, parent, etc. do the same. Sacrifice for others. Petty and immature people are the ones that remain vindictive at the core. Grown ups try to overcome their natures and succeed, just like the majority of super-heroes (vs Batman who plays with toeing the line- giving into his nature save the kill... creepy psychological S&M if I ever saw one).

If you are trying to tell me that you would step in front of a speeding trucj for someone that you have never met, I am telling you that you are full of it. You would stand there frozen in shock and watch them die like 99.9% of the rest of the worlds population.

No speeding truck, but I've done lifeguard work and saved lives. When the person going down is a 280 lbs drunk, he's both a stranger and a threat, and not one that I cowardly sat by and watched die.

In a word, tough. I don't like all comic characters either. Personally, I can't stand Spiderman. But I also don't climb on a soap box and try and use it to preach why he is "an example of abnormal psychology." Peter Parker is every bit as much of a head case as Bruce. But he has just as large of a fan base as Batman, and always will. Batman appeals to a certain portion of the population(your "immature group", I belive it was.)

One question out of curiosity. If Batman disgusts you so, why are you in the Batman forum, obviously enjoying posting in it so much.

Because you brought the challenge in a open forum. Batman, clearly, isn't the greatest by far in my opinion and I'm free to share it. His fanbase isn't necessarily reflective of his greatness... if anything it proves he's a popularity whore willing to change at the whim of sales rather than having any character to his character.

[Guts/Batman]

i have a theory on knightfall healing not all of you will like...
bruce went for a swim in a lazurus pit...

I thought it was some Russian mystic that did it.

And I agree with Mainline. Batman is indeed an immature child in the body a uber talented man.

Vengeance and almost all that he stands for are childish emotions. Emotions most adults put away. They don't act on it. Just because he has the means and skills to do so doesn't make him any more mature than a child with a grudge.

Bruce could do alot more as Bruce Wayne than Batman. How many of his villains stick around Gotham just because Batman is around? Joker only stays around Gotham for that reason for damned sure.

[Guts/Batman]

ok everyone lets say it out loud....IT'S A BLOODY COMIC BOOK!!!!! if they made him too realistic then i doubt he would work too well they have to embelish on his abilities.exaggerate them. so if batman is metahuman in ur eyes my deluded friend then so is nightwing (since lets face it he would be in severe pain doing what he does).

Dunno too much about Nightwing so I will have to defer to you on judgement until I can get caught up on NW.

I would agree that some writers have him better than others do. I will completely ignore what Loeb does in S/B because that is just...wrong.

If we take Loeb into consideration (S/B is in the current continuity afterall) then wouldn't Bruce be blatently superhuman strength levels? IIRC, he knocked out Captain Marvel with one punch, correct? How many times has Superman or WW or Black Adam ever done that?

Taking out Shiva with one punch as well (who is undoubtedly a metahuman), also is a pretty good indication of how strong Batman must be to be able to do so.

I would think the Bruce would have to have some healing factor. I'm not talking Wolverine level healing factor herebut more subtle, but he has to have some kind of healing factor to be able to come back from what happened at the beginning of Hush.

The fall, having his body more or less broken. Go get brain surgery and be ready to go (well, better than he has any business to be, for a regular comic book human that is) just weeks later. Though the timetable on the original Hush arc in Batman didn't seem to be too ratcheted down to me.

They are never going to say it and I don't think it would destroy the character. If done right, I think an arc in which Bruce found out that he is a lil above human would rock hard.

We don't need to have him tossing moons or anything of that sort lifting mountain ranges or be able to time travel by merely going REALLY fast or anything of that nature.

And yes, if it was too realistic it wouldn't work too well. But he is still too freakin good for me to believe he isn't a ringer (I heard that from someone on the rumbles board, can anyone else back that up?) or something like that.

Make his skills more reasonable. He doesn't have to know everything about everything. Hell, if he didn't something I think that would be pretty entertaining to read.

You can train your body to increase endurance, muscle mass, pain tolerance, and all that good stuff that Bruce knows. However, you must have the capability to be able to do so to be able to do those things. A person with brain damage to the part of the brain that deals with complex vision (I forget to the name) person cannot see as well as a person with no brain damage, no?

That is why I think he is a metahuman. And it is his brain (and nervous system) that I think is superhuman. While learning at the rate he can learn at may not be specifically metahuman, I think the ability to main ALL of what he learns shows he has something that "normal" DCU humans don't.

I'm not talking about the physical part(well, his outside anyways) part. He might indeed have good dna ( I would love to have Wolverine's DNA).

However, I don't disagree with what you said ,TJ Shoun. It is part of the mythos that we, the reader, that he made himself the best he can possibly be. But would the mythos change to the characters in the stories if knew he was a low level metahuman?

Hell, I would think that the Joker would want Batman to stick around forever then (even more than he does now)!

[SITHLORD]

I thought it was some Russian mystic that did it.

For the record, it was Dr. Shondra Kinsolving, who was working on Tim's father at the time.

[Jaye]

No personal attacks, no insults to other posters.

[Headhunter]

For the record, it was Dr. Shondra Kinsolving, who was working on Tim's father at the time.
I read the novelization before the trades, and was disappointed how bland the doctor turned out to be.

Actually, that applies to the entire tale; the novelization is a far better way to experience this saga in Batman's war against crime.

[SITHLORD]

I read the novelization before the trades, and was disappointed how bland the doctor turned out to be.

Actually, that applies to the entire tale; the novelization is a far better way to experience this saga in Batman's war against crime.

I agree. Thats how I took the story in first too, and found the novel much more in depth, especially with Bane and his character.

[Animation]

I think Batman is the coolest, or right up there. I like him because he is a nutjob in a funky bat suit. He is as nutso as half his rogue's gallery, except that he is driven to pursue justice on those who might evade it, and to protect others from injustice and tragedy happening to them.

But, he is still a nutjob. He is a guy in a Bat suit. That doesnt mean he isnt smart accomplished, respected and feared. However, this guy is WAY beyond counseling. That's my take anyway, and that's a big part of why I like Batman. I also like the fact that he can barely keep friends because of his impossible goals and standards. I love how extreme his attempts at perfection often are.

Lewis

[powergirl]

I agree. Thats how I took the story in first too, and found the novel much more in depth, especially with Bane and his character.


r u talking about knightfall: the book?

[DARK KNIGHT TN]

I personally found the Batman Knightfall novel to be far better than the comic. It just got a lot deeper into the characters.