What DC hero(es) will be left untainted by IDENTITY/INFINITE CRISIS?

[Buried Alien]

Needless to say, over the past two years, IDENTITY CRISIS and INFINITE CRISIS will forever morally taint some of the DCU's biggest heroes. When it's all said and done, who will still have his/her heroic reputation completely intact?

From what I've seen, it looks like most of the JSA stalwarts are in the clear, and so is Captain Marvel. Other than that, however, I'm not sure.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sk8maven]

From what I've seen, it looks like most of the JSA stalwarts are in the clear, and so is Captain Marvel.Not completely. They DID act like dicks to Black Adam at the end of the (mandated crossover tie-in) Black Vengeance storyline. Not even a thank-you for saving Atom-Smasher - just "You go mind your business, let us mind ours, and stay away from Al!" But - SO FAR - they haven't been required to take major actions that would compromise their core values. SO FAR.

Maven

[SpecialAgentPunk]

Is Sandman considered a DC character? I've only read Preludes and Nocturnes, in which Batman and Martian Manhunter briefed. It would be cool seeing Sandman there.

[thetube]

Which Sandman? There are almost as many of them as there are Starmen.

[thetube]

I hope that they won't completely go back to the pre-Crisis on Infinite Earth's DCU either... That is my greatest fear.

[Sk8maven]

Is Sandman considered a DC character? I've only read Preludes and Nocturnes, in which Batman and Martian Manhunter briefed. It would be cool seeing Sandman there.If you mean Morpheus, he's dead. He chose to die at the end of "The Kindly Ones", to give way to another avatar of Dream who was based on Lyta and Hector's son Daniel (from"The Doll's House").

Daniel/Dream has stuck his nose into the DCU proper a few times, but usually just where his parents are concerned, and usually very briefly.

Maven

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If I had to guess, I would say none of them will be left untainted to you.

Why?

The people writing them right now aren't you, therefore they may have different views of not only what a hero is, but who these characters are and what actions they would be willing to commit in order to save lives.

As a result, there's a very strong possibility all the DCU will be tainted in your eyes before this over because you are looking at them from a different perspective than the the current creators.

The nice thing is, though, these characters have proven to be stronger than any writer, artist or editor. They are icons and they can survive any interpretation. The only thing that can kill them is being ignored and forgotten, which doesn't seem likely given how much people have been talking about them lately.

If you don't enjoy this interpretation, just wait until the next creative revival. They're like buses, another one will be around sooner or later.

[Kevinroc]

If I had to guess, I would say none of them will be left untainted to you.

Why?

The people writing them right now aren't you, therefore they may have different views of not only what a hero is, but who these characters are and what actions they would be willing to commit in order to save lives.

As a result, there's a very strong possibility all the DCU will be tainted in your eyes before this over because you are looking at them from a different perspective than the the current creators.

The nice thing is, though, these characters have proven to be stronger than any writer, artist or editor. They are icons and they can survive any interpretation. The only thing that can kill them is being ignored and forgotten, which doesn't seem likely given how much people have been talking about them lately.

If you don't enjoy this interpretation, just wait until the next creative revival. They're like buses, another one will be around sooner or later.

If we're going to see characterization like we saw in Countdown, the next editorial shift can't happen soon enough for me.

[Buried Alien]

The nice thing is, though, these characters have proven to be stronger than any writer, artist or editor. They are icons and they can survive any interpretation. The only thing that can kill them is being ignored and forgotten, which doesn't seem likely given how much people have been talking about them lately.

If you don't enjoy this interpretation, just wait until the next creative revival. They're like buses, another one will be around sooner or later.

There's more to it than that. Unless some continuity rewriting event erases all that transpires, all acts of dubious morality and sanity assigned to heretofore heroic characters will become part of their permanent history. Unless the "next creative revival" allows for the next group of creative staff to completely disregard what's happening right now, this burden upon the characters might become a permanent one.

For better or for worse, IDENTITY CRISIS and INFINITE CRISIS are not Elseworlds events. Whatever results will have consequences that will last forever (barring another complete continuity reboot).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There's more to it than that. Unless some continuity rewriting event erases all that transpires, all acts of dubious morality and sanity assigned to heretofore heroic characters will become part of their permanent history. Unless the "next creative revival" allows for the next group of creative staff to completely disregard what's happening right now, this burden upon the characters might become a permanent one.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

If your commitment to some silly, ever-changing, ever-inconsistent continuity is more important to you than who these characters are to you, then I guess you're screwed, aren't you?

If I were you, I'd stop worrying about what counts and what doesn't count as continuity, and worry more about why you read about these characters to begin with.

[Buried Alien]

If your commitment to some silly, ever-changing, ever-inconsistent continuity is more important to you than who these characters are to you, then I guess you're screwed, aren't you?

DC's continuity might not be picture perfect, but if the Silver Age JLA is depicted in a more sinister light than has ever been known, how will that be undone? If it's a minor thing, future writers can just ignore it...but given the size and scope of ID/INFI-CRISIS, how are are writers of DC Comics in the future going to just IGNORE what's being done to the characters right now? None of these changes are reversible if they don't work out.


If I were you, I'd stop worrying about what counts and what doesn't count as continuity, and worry more about why you read about these characters to begin with.

Well, that's just it. The characters are being depicted in ways that are radically different from what we've come to expect and if it doesn't take, there's no going back.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[OzBat!]

Flash is going to come out of this relatively unscathed, although his relationship with several other heroes is definitely going to be strained.

Of course, this depends on future FLASH writers following on the groundwork laid by Johns. The "Rogue Wars" story arc is going to great lengths to reinforce that Flash isn't a hero defined by tragedy, it isn't his reason for being. And with time travel involved in the last issue, it's entirely possible that the tragedy that Wally and Linda have suffered in the last year or so, may be undone.

It would be great if DC could capitalise on this, set up Flash as a genuinely shining counterpoint to the darkness closing in on all their other marquee heroes.

[Forsaken_One]

Kyle Rayner almost destroyed the world with his overactive imagination. Batman got a teenage girl killed partially through his actions recently. John Stewart destroyed a planet. The Martian Manhunter's firey side almost destroyed the world. Hal Jordan tried to rewrite time itself. Wonder Woman killed someone (or something) on national television. Huntress has had at least one person killed. The Question killed multiple people recently. Alan Scott thought he intentionally destroyed a whole country. Jack Knight's Starman killed someone in his first adventure. Nightwing stood by and did nothing while a villian was shot in front of him. Superman tried to kill Doomsday.

And those're just the ones I remember off the top of my head.

I guess what I'm saying is that these people really didn't have a spotless moral record before Infinite Crisis. You seem to be idealizing the past, thinking that it was somehow a lot more pure than what's going on in comics right now. There's always been a need for conflict, especially epic conflict, and that requires huge problems. Problems that often involve questionable moral choices and deaths.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

None of these changes are reversible if they don't work out.
Well, that's just it. The characters are being depicted in ways that are radically different from what we've come to expect and if it doesn't take, there's no going back.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

This is nonsense. Any or all of this stuff could be retconned away, ignored and simply forgotten at any time DC Editorial wanted to do it. The only thing stopping them would be listening too much to hardcore fans so obsessed with keeping their precious continuity pure and untouchable, that revising continuity would destroy their grasp on reality.

Continuity does change, does get revised and new and old stories come in and out continuity all the time. Anybody who's been reading comics as long as you have should know this by now. Don't run around yelling that the sky is falling and all the stuff happening how is permanent and unchangable when that clearly isn't the case.

These are superhero comics. Anything can happen.

[Sean Walsh]

Seems like the New Gods are going to walk away from this one relatively unscathed.

[namo580]

Flash is going to come out of this relatively unscathed, although his relationship with several other heroes is definitely going to be strained.

I think the one person who is going to come out of this worse, if not dead, is Wally. DC hinted that Flash fans may not be too happy with Infinite Crisis. Hey, it wouldnt be a crisis without a dead flash.

[Buried Alien]

This is nonsense. Any or all of this stuff could be retconned away, ignored and simply forgotten at any time DC Editorial wanted to do it. The only thing stopping them would be listening too much to hardcore fans so obsessed with keeping their precious continuity pure and untouchable, that revising continuity would destroy their grasp on reality.

Continuity does change, does get revised and new and old stories come in and out continuity all the time. Anybody who's been reading comics as long as you have should know this by now. Don't run around yelling that the sky is falling and all the stuff happening how is permanent and unchangable when that clearly isn't the case.

These are superhero comics. Anything can happen.


I'd have more faith in this concept if DC hadn't demonstrated over the past twenty years how stubborn it can be when it comes to adhering to continuity. After the original CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, there were a few bad decisions that should have been, but never were reversed because editorial dictated that the creative staff had to follow the continuity rules laid down after COIE. ID/INFI-CRISIS could similarly hogtie future stories to similar issues.

It's not that the new creative staff won't want to go in a different direction twenty years from now; it's that editorial authority won't let them.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Shellhead]

The Seven Soldiers won't be affected by Infinite Crisis. With Morrison's influential post-IC status, nobody is going to mess with them right now.

The Legion of Super-Heroes won't be affected by Infinite Crisis, because it's already ancient (and probably obscure) history to them.

[Kid Seven]

I expect the Giffen Leaugue to get out- :eek: ....

Okay, that was uncomfortable, but now they- :eek: !....

Wow, um...oka- :eek:

Now?....

:eek:

DC Editor: That was the last one, we promise.
Paul Levitz: This week.
Dan DiDio: God, we love these characters.

[SuperManny]

Superman tried to kill Doomsday.


In Superman's moral defense of this one, Doomsday was trying to kill him as well. If anything, his execution of the Phantom Zone criminals lie in the same killing standpoint as Wonder Woman's latest execution.

All heroes are tainted :p

[xnef1025]

In Superman's moral defense of this one, Doomsday was trying to kill him as well. If anything, his execution of the Phantom Zone criminals lie in the same killing standpoint as Wonder Woman's latest execution.

Which is why Supes is being a hypocrite when he condemns Diana for her action.

The Big 3, Batman's boys, and the Satelite and Giffen JLA members are the ones that are going to affected by this the most. Everyone else is going to be hit, but come through as more focused characters than before, especially the 2nd and 3rd stringers that are getting attention in the minis and those getting "finalized" origins(PG, BB). Oh yeah, and Plastic Man is eternally Plastic Man so he's safe :D

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd have more faith in this concept if DC hadn't demonstrated over the past twenty years how stubborn it can be when it comes to adhering to continuity. After the original CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, there were a few bad decisions that should have been, but never were reversed because editorial dictated that the creative staff had to follow the continuity rules laid down after COIE. ID/INFI-CRISIS could similarly hogtie future stories to similar issues.

It's not that the new creative staff won't want to go in a different direction twenty years from now; it's that editorial authority won't let them.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yes, but the past 20 years have also shown us that when DC realises its ****ed up a character or concept so badly nobody buys their comics, they'll do something about it, either within established continuity or by retconning it in or out of continuity. Emerald Twilight being a prime example of this. Since enough readers are clearly interested in their current approach, however, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon though.

In the meantime, DC is starting up this All-Star line in order to give fans like you and others your superheroes in their classic, untainted incarnations. Although All-Star Batman & Robin wasn't to my tastes, I wasn't really expecting it to be. I'm waiting for Alex Ross' Justice and Morrison & Quietly's Superman. That's the stuff.

[SuperManny]

Which is why Supes is being a hypocrite when he condemns Diana for her action.


I have a hard time agreeing with this statement. Granted, Superman did commit murder ("justifiable homicide" in his eyes) and waved good riddance to the future nuisances of the Phantom Zone criminals. But he had learned from the experience not to repeat himself, especially if he's going to stand for a moral clause such as not killing. He even went through a lot of guilt, seeking some sort of atonement. The issue is dealt with in the collected tpb Superman: Exile. So, he has every right from this experience to criticize Diana's actions.

It's the same idea as a parent who was a drug abuser as a teen. Fast forward 20 years later, when he's raising kids of his own, how would you justify a hypocrite who regrets their actions? Simple, they're the parents and they learned the mistakes from the past so that they're not repeated. In Supes' case, hypocritical as it may sound, he's completely justified in attempting to correct her as a team member of the JLA.

If we went by the "hypocrite" rule as an excuse to ignore someone's standards, then we would all be doomed as a society. :cool:

[Forsaken_One]

In Superman's moral defense of this one, Doomsday was trying to kill him as well. If anything, his execution of the Phantom Zone criminals lie in the same killing standpoint as Wonder Woman's latest execution.

All heroes are tainted :p
Ah, I just don't read enough Superman and that was the only one I could think of where he killed. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.

Sadly even G.I.Joe are tainted now. Darn you dramatic storytelling! :p

[jade_nova]

I think Green Arrow will come out of this untainted.

[Sk8maven]

I think Green Arrow will come out of this untainted.He's already tainted. He compromised his principles in the name of "keeping the JLA together".

Maven