Wonder Woman 219 - Warning Spoilers Ahead!

[pureclint]

Well, we have 5 pages or so about the Rucka apology, no need to rehash that here fellas and ladies, but no thread on this (yet again) Great Issue!

We get an assisted Head Twist by Max curtsey of Diana!

We get one of the 5 or so BEST DCU fights of the year, as Superman takes it to Wonder Woman in a complete rage. Flying to the sun, one punch to earth, Wonder Woman's showing her warrior training, thumbs to the eye....That was 3 or so (anyone remember the exact time quoted?) minutes of Super Hero Fisticuffs at its best!

And Will Superman become a hypocrite and denounce Diana over killing some one? I know he was shocked when she said they should have killed Dr Light but Bruce actually took it well then, as he expected her response (Damn that two steps ahead Bruce!).

With a big fat Omac tie-in thumbs up, Rucka sure can write a great Diana.

[Windbreaker]

There hasn't been a dedicated thread, but there are arguments about Sacrifice/OMAC all over these boards right now!

I agree with you on #219 - LOVED the issue. In fact, I haven't been reading WW, but I will have to now. I'm that pumped.

[Private America]

I'm glad I added WW to my pull list starting in October. I'll have to pick up the next couple of issues until then.

Rucka is quickly becoming one of my favorite writers.

[pureclint]

Yeah I have been in on both discussions, but I feel the issue (and series) deserves more pub!

IF you can go back and get the Medusa arc/fight at the very least.

Also next issue should be interesting, it looks like Diana goes to Jail.

[Donald Stone]

Thought it was a good issue, and I thought what Diana did was wholly appropriate.

[Kid Seven]

I think this whole "sacrifice" story will reinvigorate interest in Wonder Woman. Rucka did an amazing job of conveying who Diana is, her strength, and the willingness she has to stand by her convictions.

[pureclint]

I think this whole "sacrifice" story will reinvigorate interest in Wonder Woman. Rucka did an amazing job of conveying who Diana is, her strength, and the willingness she has to stand by her convictions.


Well I hope so, his run has been great and really elivated Wonder Woman as a A class Hero. I really liked how she was completly out matched by Superman in the strength and Speed but out thought and out fought him even though she KNEW shou could only hold him off due to his power advantage.

It iis very admirable how good Rucka can right a Fight scene. This fight, the Silver Swan battle, the Medusa battle, and the Batman Omac fight all ruled.

I never read any of his batman stuff, does he have any big time action issues in those?

[chriskenny]

This has got me interested in Wonder Woman again. I have been collecting the trades for Rucka's run because they definetly read better in larger portions. However, I might have to start reading month-to-month again.

Chris

[bannermanonemillion]

I'd comment but I'm too busy eating my words regarding who Diana'd kill.

*Pete Ross? what was I smoking that day?*

[Christopher O]

This was a great issue--easily one of my favorite of Rucka's run. The fight was exciting and creative, with both characters using most--if not all--of their available abilities. I was impressed, and the ending, while predictable, was great. I'm intrigued about the implications this issue has for the future of the DCU.

[davids]

I'd comment but I'm too busy eating my words regarding who Diana'd kill.

*Pete Ross? what was I smoking that day?*
I wasn't smoking anything and i thought it would be Ruin[AKA Pete Ross.] Especialy after the cover of WW 220 came out with her doing the perp walk hand cuffs and all!

[Forsaken_One]

Isn't Max Lord a robot? :confused:

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Although I could see the conclusion of this story coming a mile away, I gotta say the execution really did make for a thouroughly entertaining story...I usually don't care for Rucka's writing at all.

Even though it took several chances for him to convince me otherwise, his Wonder Woman has finally won me over. That bastard. I hope he's happy.

[pureclint]

Isn't Max Lord a robot? :confused:


Reading his history at DC Cosimic Teams (http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/index.html) I do not see that he is a robot, he did have some techno-organic like powers at one time though.

[MrBeebs37]

What a wonderfully misleading storyline. Building both Batman and Superman up as the reasons for a rift between the big 3 and then making it Wonder Woman. I have to say that I like Rucka alright but his endings usually don't match up quality wise to the buildups but this was a beautifully constructed twist.

And I'm so impressed with DC for managing to still surprise me like 2 years into this creative revival they are going through right now. I do look forward to the pendulum swinging back towards marvel at some point, as I have more of a connection to those characters, but DC just doesn't seem stoppable right now.

And kudos to DC for having the balls to kill off their new big company wide villain within months of revealing him as one (though I have my doubts as a thought-controlling villain can easily fake a death). Whether you like Maxwell Lord as a bad guy or not, this is a bold move in DC's part.

[pureclint]

Read Rucka's new interview on NEwsarama....Max is toast. (Well it is comics but he is as toast as can be for now)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Wonder Woman Is Rucka's best book. Period..he owns It. I thought Bryne had a great run after Perez but Rucka's passed him. I so wanted It to be Booster who kills Max. Rucka...why wouldn't ya let Booster get that revenge for Ted ? If anyone deserved to kill Maxwell Lord....Its Booster.

[Ray192]

you REALLY want Booster to kill somebody?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

you REALLY want Booster to kill somebody?


I wanted him to kill Max for what he did to his best buddy. Thats my belief. That Booster deserved the vengence against Max. I liked WW 219# , But sadly....Booster deserved to be the one who handed out Max's death sentence.

[Jeff F]

My only problem with the issue:

Diana should have just knocked Max out in the first few panels of the book. He'd already given her all the info she needed to figure out what had to be done. From there she would have had no need to make the hard choice. They could have just put him on ice or shunted him to the phantom zone.

[Private America]

And kudos to DC for having the balls to kill off their new big company wide villain within months of revealing him as one (though I have my doubts as a thought-controlling villain can easily fake a death). Whether you like Maxwell Lord as a bad guy or not, this is a bold move in DC's part.

Yeah, DC is kicking tail and taking names right now. And, if this "52" thing works, it will get even better for DC.

[pureclint]

My only problem with the issue:

Diana should have just knocked Max out in the first few panels of the book. He'd already given her all the info she needed to figure out what had to be done. From there she would have had no need to make the hard choice. They could have just put him on ice or shunted him to the phantom zone.


Not sure how she could have done that as she was in Superman's grasp and he flew her to the Sun, he is stronger and faster then Diana. Hell it took her the whole flight there to get the Kryptonite out and break his grasp. As her inner dialogue states she was jsut trying to find a way to slow Superman down to get to Max. Also, as Rucka has stated putting him in the Phantom Zone would have killedl him and putting him in a coma for his whole life is no better then killing him and it has the added danger he might wake up and use Superman again.

[davids]

At least that is whar samuel jackson would say!

[olympichero62]

The Sun is about 93 million miles from earth and your telling me they had time to fly there and back?! :confused:

[pureclint]

The Sun is about 93 million miles from earth and your telling me they had time to fly there and back?! :confused:


They do not say if they ever get to the sun but the get near it, Superman was really going all out and he can fly a decent percentage of the Speed of Light in a Vaccum so.

[Yoda]

They do not say if they ever get to the sun but the get near it, Superman was really going all out and he can fly a decent percentage of the Speed of Light in a Vaccum so.

According to Rucka on his forum the script never had them flying to the Sun, they were never supposed to have gotten to Venus. They were only supposed to be in space. It was the artist on that section who put them that close the Sun. So that was kind of a mistake.

[olympichero62]

According to Rucka on his forum the script never had them flying to the Sun, they were never supposed to have gotten to Venus. They were only supposed to be in space. It was the artist on that section who put them that close the Sun. So that was kind of a mistake.


That makes a little more sense

[bfrank]

common sense would have told anyone they were nowhere near the sun..the fight was two minutes long...

[bfrank]

They do not say if they ever get to the sun but the get near it, Superman was really going all out and he can fly a decent percentage of the Speed of Light in a Vaccum so.
it takes like 8 minutes for sun light to get to earth....

[UniqueFrequency]

i thought this was a great issue. since i picked up the first issue of Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman it's been a GREAT ride.

only thing is now i have to pick up the first 3 bits of sacrifice!!

[xnef1025]

You can skip the first part with Brainiac. Just get 2 and 3. Part 1 is intro filler. The story doesn't actually move until part 2.

[mgs]

that was freakin sick!! and awesome too!!! :)

I'm really getting into this comic now.

[Kevin Street]

Summer has been incredibly busy, and this issue was rarer than the proverbial hen's tooth, so I didn't get the chance to read it until now.

...wow, what a fight!

My only problem with the issue:

Diana should have just knocked Max out in the first few panels of the book. He'd already given her all the info she needed to figure out what had to be done. From there she would have had no need to make the hard choice. They could have just put him on ice or shunted him to the phantom zone.

But remember, Superman is still sick in the head. Max did a permanent Jedi Mind Trick on him that's still rattling around in Clark's brain. Poor Supes has seen Lois die about a hundred times, and he's virtually "killed" just about every member of his rogues gallery - which has loosened his inhibition against murder and made him question his sanity. At that point in the story Diana is still primarily trying to help Superman by getting Max to let go of the reigns and fix him.

According to Rucka on his forum the script never had them flying to the Sun, they were never supposed to have gotten to Venus. They were only supposed to be in space. It was the artist on that section who put them that close the Sun. So that was kind of a mistake.

But still, what an awesome sequence! It's at least an order of magnitude beyond the Flash crossover where Professor Zoom was booting Diana into different time zones. The energy release when Superman punched Diana back to Earth must have been equivalent to a hydrogen bomb at the least! No wonder she blacked out.

Her reentry scene was similarly amazing, but I think Rags might have overdone it a bit. I mean, Max says that no one died, but on page eight you can see a couple of cars and a semi flipping at least forty or fifty feet into the air. (Check out the cars still on the road in the background - the height makes them look like toys.) There's no air bag in creation that can help you survive that.

Actually, this whole issue is like a car crash. An extremely entertaining and well done one, but it's obvious from page four what's going to happen when Max says "As long as I live, Superman's mind is mine to control." We know that Diana is going to kill him, and the rest of the story is all pumping the brakes and shouting "Nooooo!" like they do in movies. No, Superman - don't kill Wonder Woman! No, Wonder Woman - don't kill Superman! (Whoa, he broke her wrist!) No Superman, don't roast those birds! (Phew, he didn't do that one at least.) No Wonder Woman, don't slash his - too late. No Diana - DON'T KILL MAX!!!

Crash.

Now I haven't read any of the other debates on this board and I haven't read Rucka's interview on Newsarama yet (that's for tomorrow), so I apologize if this has been kicked around a thousand times, but I have to give my opinion on Diana's action here. She screwed up big time.

I mean, let's think about it here. Under what circumstances can murder be justified? Commonly, in self defence or the defence of others - when there's no other alternative. But there were plenty of alternatives here. She could have knocked him out, then stuck him in one of those permanent teleporter loops, got Zatanna or Doctor Fate to turn him into a goldfish, ripped out his eyes (Can he "push" people without looking at them?) dropped him in a cell on a distant planet, or (my favorite) put him in a virtual reality Skinner Box and let him dream away the rest of his life in a fantasy world. There were lots of choices.

Are any of those methods foolproof? Probably not, an inventive writer (or DC villain) could probably find ways to subvert any of them, but that's not the point. The point is this: Diana had no right to decide that the alternatives were useless and kill Max. She does not get to decide who lives and who dies. Heck, she deposed a guy a few issues back (his name rhymes with "noose") for doing that, and he was a god. By executing Max she essentially proved that Lord was right about metas, at least in her case.

Yeah, we know that this action was in line with her philosophy. "You kill monsters." But her philosophy is wrong. At least when there's any other possible alternative and the monster is a sentient being.

Still and all, an excellent issue. Even a car crash can be fun when it's done as well as this.

[kane]

But still, what an awesome sequence! It's at least an order of magnitude beyond the Flash crossover where Professor Zoom was booting Diana into different time zones. The energy release when Superman punched Diana back to Earth must have been equivalent to a hydrogen bomb at the least! No wonder she blacked out.



I think the only reason Diana survived the punch was due to the kryptonite she used on Superman in this moment.

[Kevin Street]

^ Could be. That seems reasonable.

This poses an interesting question about Wonder Woman herself. Can Diana reach space under her own power? She probably needs to breath so she couldn't survive there long, but if Diana had some kind of spacesuit (hardened to resist heat from atmospheric friction) could she visit other planets like Venus and Mars?

[davids]

no pressure suit! while she and superman skip stones and talk. Wonder Woman's skin must be far tougher than thought. you have any idea the impact of hitting the ground at 250 miles per hour[terminal verlocity] A punch from Superman is far greater than that. and yet she can be cut and shot?

[Captain Jim]

Now I haven't read any of the other debates on this board and I haven't read Rucka's interview on Newsarama yet (that's for tomorrow), so I apologize if this has been kicked around a thousand times,

At least a thousand. ;)

[mr_street]

i think the fight by the sun was pretty fricken awesome, its the type of thing that can only happen a comic book! which kinda makes it great.

wonder woman and superman are both encredibly powerful - the scale of the fight may defy reality, but comics books! thats a whole different reality, its sorta like ours. fewer moments. physics? who realy cares! i really enjoyed this story (as much as the rest of ruckas run - its all been great)

they have been building up to this for months (in wonder woman) as soon as i saw the solicitation and the fact that it ends in a wonder woman comic - i knew she was gonna kill somebody (which i'm sure she has done before) - the victum wwas cooler than expected!

[Eliseu Gouveia]

no pressure suit! while she and superman skip stones and talk. Wonder Woman's skin must be far tougher than thought. you have any idea the impact of hitting the ground at 250 miles per hour[terminal verlocity] A punch from Superman is far greater than that. and yet she can be cut and shot?


And yet she needs to use her bracelets to block bullets.....

[The Joker]

Great, great issue.

You basically knew how it was going to end, but the way it was executed was just spectacular. I've been collecting Wonder Woman ever since Adam Hughes began his run on the WW covers a few years back. But I can tell you that this issue is easily one of the best. With a fight that wont soon be forgotten. In short, this issue really has me looking that much forward to future issues. Good stuff.

[Kevin Street]

Whoa, the thread got moved!

At least a thousand. ;)

And yet, I didn't read any of this until two days ago, so it's all brand new to me. :p

no pressure suit! while she and superman skip stones and talk. Wonder Woman's skin must be far tougher than thought. you have any idea the impact of hitting the ground at 250 miles per hour[terminal verlocity] A punch from Superman is far greater than that. and yet she can be cut and shot?

Yes, well, um... There's no good explanation for why Wonder Woman can take megaton punches from Superman and then get wounded by a bullet. I guess the only fallback we've got to explain this here is to just say it's magic. Her powers were granted by the Greek Gods, so maybe she's extra tough when she faces threats that they knew about back in the day (like swords and spears and fists), but is particularly vulnerable to threats that they never had in ancient Greece, like guns. Selective invulnerability, as it where.

I don't know, it's just a theory. ;)

[Tom]

I always liked the explanation that Diana doesn't need to use the bracelets but that they are the definitive Amazon defensive fighting tool and she's better at using them than anyone else.

[HynerianChef]

Yes, well, um... There's no good explanation for why Wonder Woman can take megaton punches from Superman and then get wounded by a bullet. I guess the only fallback we've got to explain this here is to just say it's magic. Her powers were granted by the Greek Gods, so maybe she's extra tough when she faces threats that they knew about back in the day (like swords and spears and fists), but is particularly vulnerable to threats that they never had in ancient Greece, like guns. Selective invulnerability, as it where.

I don't know, it's just a theory. ;)

It's not a theory, IIRC. It's been stated and shown in the comics various times that her blunt resistance is far, far above her piercing and slashing one.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I always liked the explanation that Diana doesn't need to use the bracelets but that they are the definitive Amazon defensive fighting tool and she's better at using them than anyone else.


See?
I could live with that.
I could live with her deflecting bullets because:
- she wants to protect inocent bystanders from ricochets
- she wants to contain property damage
- she hates the sting on her skin
- it´s fun

A being able to withstand kiloton punches on a regular basis, a reentry and subsequent crashland but not bullets?

Sorry, but that I can´t swallow.

[Tom]

See?
I could live with that.
I could live with her deflecting bullets because:
- she wants to protect inocent bystanders from ricochets
- she wants to contain property damage
- she hates the sting on her skin
- it´s fun

A being able to withstand kiloton punches on a regular basis, a reentry and subsequent crashland but not bullets?

Sorry, but that I can´t swallow.
I agree, plus the bracelets should be for her what Ollie's bow is to him or Selina's whip is to her. A symbol that she is better using this weapon than any one else foolish enough to try. Superman may stand there and let them bounce of his chest, but Diana could spell out her name with deflected bullets if she wanted to.

I always pictured the Amazon phalanx consisting of a front line of the greatest "braceleteers" advancing without armor and ably deflecting every projectile away from the advancing troops.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I agree, plus the bracelets should be for her what Ollie's bow is to him or Selina's whip is to her. A symbol that she is better using this weapon than any one else foolish enough to try. Superman may stand there and let them bounce of his chest, but Diana could spell out her name with deflected bullets if she wanted to.

I always pictured the Amazon phalanx consisting of a front line of the greatest "braceleteers" advancing without armor and ably deflecting every projectile away from the advancing troops.


Please, please Oh God PLEASE! write the Wonder Woman film. :D

[Tom]

Please, please Oh God PLEASE! write the Wonder Woman film. :D
I'll get right on that.

[diana_fan]

This was a great issue, containing everything that Rucka does right.

Diana is bad-ass, and she doesn't want to fight. She tries and succeeds in thinking her way through the fight. Everytime something happens, she uses her mind to oppose Supes power. That's my Diana.

In the end, she does something which she doesn't want to do, but which she feels she HAS to do. Again, that's my Diana. A warrior. She is tough and rough and is willing to do what needs be done. She doesn't want to do it, but she does.

The art on that last page was amazing. No captions, no dialogue, just Diana looking carefully into Max's eyes, then snapping his neck. She's bloodied and roughed up, but she focuses. Amazing. Man, that look in her eyes. I'll never forget that look.

[Viking Bastard]

How long has Rucka been on Wonder Woman now?

What was his first issue, again?

[The Joker]

How long has Rucka been on Wonder Woman now?

What was his first issue, again?

About or a little over two years I believe.

Issue #195.

[titanfan]

The problem is that WW has been shot (by Devastation) and stabbed before. How about this: Immediately after feeling the heat from re-entry, WW instinctively slapped her braclets together, activating her force field which shielded her from the majority of the impact during the landing.

[Gilda Dent]

I liked the way they used one of her underutilized powers--the ability to see the truth--so well by making it so that Max couldn't push her.

There was a small flaw there, though. Diana should have been able to disrupt Max's influnce with her lasso, which can burn away all but the truth. Once she had it around him, Superman should have been able to see the truth and been free from the illusions.

That's quibbleing though. Maybe it would have taken a while to put this into effect, and she didn't have time.

Was she justified? Let's change the scenario just for a moment. Suppose there's a madman who has control of a nuclear bomb, and that bomb is in the middle of a large city. He has a foolproof method of remote detonating the bomb with a mental command. He has stated that he intends to do this as soon as he is able. There is no prison in existence that can restrict him from doing this; the moment he's able, he'll detonate the bomb. You have a few seconds to decide, let him live and hope for a better solution to come along, or kill him and in the process deactivate the bomb.

Superman is, in this context, the most powerful weapon on the planet. Was killing him a bad thing to do, was it wrong? Of course it was, killing a prisoner is wrong. In this case, however, letting him live would have been worse. It wasn't a matter of choosing right or wrong, it was a matter of choosing to do an bad thing or choosing to allow by inaction an evern worse thing.

I thinks it's been well-established that she's highly resistant to blunt force impacts--like Superman's fist or the ground--but vulnerable to sharp cutting or penetrating devices, like bullets or arrows. Is this inconsistent? Not for a being made of magic. Her powers were gifts from the gods, so if these gifts didn't include bulletproof skin, she doesn't have it. Magic doesn't have to be logical.

And let's not forget that even if she was bulletproof, the bracelets are magic and can deflect, well, anything. Bullets, flames, lasers, magical attacks.

Gilda

[geewaiho]

was jsut wondering, now that diana gained the eyes or vision of athena back in WW#217, how would this benefit her besides restoring her sight???. thx

[Loren]

was jsut wondering, now that diana gained the eyes or vision of athena back in WW#217, how would this benefit her besides restoring her sight???. thx

Is this why the final cover differed from the solicited cover?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/cronb01/WonderWomanCv219.jpg

http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/3847_400x600.jpg

[pureclint]

Yeah she could see when it came out, not when it was solicited.