The loss of narrative captions in comics today.

[Buried Alien]

When I was growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, and even to some extent in the early 1990s, the mainstream superhero comics almost always featured narrative boxes in addition to dialogue word balloons for the characters. I always thought these were great. In some cases, they supplied important narrative information that helped me to follow the story better, provided some background info, pointed me to a related comic, or just set the mood with a "Meanwhile..."

But narrative boxes seem to have largely disappeared from comics. They haven't entirely vanished, but they're much more rare than they once were. Even a decade ago, they seemed ubiquitous. These days, most comics writers dispense with them...letting the illustrations and the dialogue do the storytelling. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, I do miss narrative boxes. Sometimes, the dialogue and illustrations aren't enough by themselves to completely convey the story. For one reason or another, however, these narrative boxes seem to have fallen out of favor in the comics business.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[howyadoin]

In the past they were necessary because of the way Marvel used to produce comics; with the full-script method that most writers use today, they don't have to go in afterwards and try to explain what was happening.

Plus, a lot of it was unnecesary. If Captain America is shown running across rooftops, I don't need a caption telling me the same thing.

[Rachel Grey]

I miss the editorial ones. You know, the "* Uncanny X-Men # 124, Ed." ones.

[pennywisdom]

The purpose of the narrative box was to help readers. As comic books became more adult-oriented, I believe it was assumed that not everything needs to be spelled out. Granted, intelligent adult readers today may just prefer the narrative boxes, rather than needing them, but I think they just remind everyone of something you would stick in for the sake of kids.

Looking back on comics from yesteryear, those narrative boxes did seem a bit condescending.

"And now our heroes are whisked away to a far-off world!"

Uhh... thanks. I can see that.

[pennywisdom]

Sometimes, the dialogue and illustrations aren't enough by themselves to completely convey the story.
Right. They're trusting you to fill in the blanks rather than be spoon-fed information.

[howyadoin]

Looking back on comics from yesteryear, those narrative boxes did seem a bit condescending.

"And now our heroes are whisked away to a far-off world!"

Uhh... thanks. I can see that.I liked Scott McCloud's term for that: duospecific.

[pennywisdom]

I liked Scott McCloud's term for that: duospecific.
Good word. McCloud's got it all figured out. :)

[Buried Alien]

Right. They're trusting you to fill in the blanks rather than be spoon-fed information.

For me, the narrative boxes provided a kind of unique atmosphere that comics (and no other medium) had. Their absence has, for me, caused a loss of that certain atmosphere. Today's boxless comics always feel...somehow *incomplete* to me.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[pennywisdom]

For me, the narrative boxes provided a kind of unique atmosphere that comics (and no other medium) had. Their absence has, for me, caused a loss of that certain atmosphere. Today's boxless comics always feel...somehow *incomplete* to me.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I understand. You obviously fall into the category of someone who happens to prefer them rather than relying on them. Their absence could just be a phase. Or, more likely, they will re-appear in certain comics as a stylistic feature. This would be appropriate in comic books that are deliberately going for a "retro" feel.

[StarsAndGarters]

I love those sort of things. Isn't it wierd how everybody wishes that narrative captions, editorial captions, and thought bubbles would come back, but nobody listens to us?

[Rachel Grey]

Wierd and kinda sad. :(

[Paradox]

StarsAndGarters makes an error:

I love those sort of things. Isn't it wierd how everybody wishes that narrative captions, editorial captions, and thought bubbles would come back, but nobody listens to us?

Not weird at all, since they realize that a handful of people on the internet is specifically NOT "everybody".

[howyadoin]

I love those sort of things. Isn't it wierd how everybody wishes that narrative captions, editorial captions, and thought bubbles would come back, but nobody listens to us?Warren Ellis has been talking about captions as a narrative tool lately. He hasn't said anything specific about using them himself, only that there's nothing wrong with them if the story dictates it.

[elheffe]

I sort of enjoyed the captions in the old Spider-Mans where it was like Stan was telling you this story personally.

[Pól Rua]

I miss the editorial ones. You know, the "* Uncanny X-Men # 124, Ed." ones.

Me too. They were cool.
As for captions, they're a narrative tool like any other. Often, you get the duospecific ones where they don't work, but hell, take a look at Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.
It's full of 'em. And instead of just reiterating the action, the words and images complement each other.
And of course, there's Matt Wagner's original Grendel story told entirely in captions.

Captions are like Continuity. Just because bad writers don't know how to use 'em properly, doesn't mean they can't be used well.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Captions can also set a mood better than just an image can.

A picture says more than a thousand words they say? I can look at a picture and then turn to the next in less than a second. But I can read a caption and then look at a picture and I can then look longer and more intense at a panel.

Only pictures results in flipping through a comic in under five minutes. I'm not handing out 3 bucks to get five measely minutes worth of entertainment. That's not what I find getting my money's worth.

No, give me thought-bubbles, and captions, and give me dialogue in combination with pictures. Give me something to do and read. Set a mood, give me more insight.

As for people no longer needing everything spelled out for them? God, half the critics on the Net bitch and moan about things not being clear enough, they complain that the story is inaccessible, that there aren't proper introductions, that the characters feel flat and that the art is hard to draw conclusions from.

Not to mention messageboards where you get situations like:

"Look she's smiling!"
"No it's more of a pensive look, she smiles but underneath the smile I detect a cynic at heart".
"You're both wrong, she's emotional, she cries on the inside but she's smiling to mask her sadness!"

and then the next issue comes, and all three are proven wrong.

Just art and you get interpretations, vague loose random words, and then it results in people calling others blind because the art is so damn clear, and you should be able to draw the same conclusions from this as I do, and if you don't you're just not sophisticated enough (hello Here Comes Tomorrow)

[west3man]

I've been re-reading JLA/AVENGERS the last several days. It just so happens that I actually *noticed* the presence of the caption boxes, in that tale... and I enjoyed them.

I think it's possible to include the captions without taking away from the story OR contributing to redundancy. In some cases, they can "clean up" the dialogue, to a degree. The "narration" can tell us what the character's experiencing (those things which aren't obvious) without taking up a lot of space, obscuring much of the art, or making the panel sequence as monotonous, visually speaking.

I don't know that I've missed the absence of narrative captions, but my recent experience demonstrates how I sometimes enjoy them. And again, as Buried said, they're fairly unique to comics and contribute to the comic book feel.

[JLarson]

I'm happy the captions and thought bubbles are gone from most comics.

[Winslow]

I like the way diaries are used to provide some character development.

I also liked the way Alan Moore used a psychiatric analysis or magazine articles and newspaper clips to help us understand the characters in The Watchmen.

It seems to me that when a writer uses narrative as a character building tool, its successful and enhances my enjoyment of the comic.

When narrative is used as a way to advance the plot - that seems like lazy storytelling.

[Huh?]

I have noticed that the death of the caption box in comics coincides with the death of the narrator in cartoons. It used to be that you would always have crap explained to you by a narrator in cartoons like the super-friends. It is very difficult to find a cartoon with a narrator produced in the last 10 years.

[west3man]

I have noticed that the death of the caption box in comics coincides with the death of the narrator in cartoons. It used to be that you would always have crap explained to you by a narrator in cartoons like the super-friends. It is very difficult to find a cartoon with a narrator produced in the last 10 years.
I can't think of a single cartoon other than S-F, which had a narrator. I'm sure there are others, but darned if any come to mind.

[Night]

Right. They're trusting you to fill in the blanks rather than be spoon-fed information.Actually they're expecting you to buy all the previous issues of a series and all the parallel titles that come in and out of the title's continuity.

[Huh?]

I can't think of a single cartoon other than S-F, which had a narrator. I'm sure there are others, but darned if any come to mind.There were a bunch in the eighties, which may or may not be after your time. Also, I believe that Hanna Barbera used it extensively in the 70's. I was not born until 78, so my experience is limited to the 80's and whatever I see on Boomerang or Cartoon Network.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

There were a bunch in the eighties, which may or may not be after your time. Also, I believe that Hanna Barbera used it extensively in the 70's. I was not born until 78, so my experience is limited to the 80's and whatever I see on Boomerang or Cartoon Network.

Those Yogi-Bear cartoons (where he's racing with a bunch of other characters) had a very annoying voice-over.

Narrators were seldomly used, I think, in more serious action-packed series, and mostly in comedy-toons.

Often the narrator was simply a shapeless invisible character who interacted on a level between cartoon and viewer. He mostly served the purpose of bringing the characters closer to the audience, because the narrator could interact with the characters AND the audience, he was the only one who could cross over from the fictional world to the real world, like some sort of demi-god.

[Shellhead]

Not weird at all, since they realize that a handful of people on the internet is specifically NOT "everybody".

I'm getting increasingly pissed off by this attitude. We're *only* the fans that care enough to express an opinion. Most companies that sell products to the general public are eager to find out what their customers think. Why should the comic industry be different? Are we just fools for wasting our money on companies that scorn our opinions?

[JLarson]

I get the impression that there's a difference between comic fans and the consumers of most other products.

Edited to add - and it's not a real positive difference. The FERVOR and RAGE that some comic lunatics go at it with... are insane. And not worth paying attention to.

Artistic integrity is not something a lot of comic fanatics seem to understand.

[Shellhead]

I get the impression that there's a difference between comic fans and the consumers of most other products.

Doesn't matter. If DC and Marvel ignore what their fans want, they will lose sales. Every business needs to understand its customers, or prepare for eventual bankruptcy.

[Slam_Bradley]

I'm getting increasingly pissed off by this attitude. We're *only* the fans that care enough to express an opinion. Most companies that sell products to the general public are eager to find out what their customers think. Why should the comic industry be different? Are we just fools for wasting our money on companies that scorn our opinions?


You're making the assumption that they're "scorning" your opinion. It's well within the realm of possibility that your opinion has been duly noted and rejected. Or that market research indicates your opinion is in the minority. Frankly, unless some big-wig from the comic companies deigns to come to the boards and discuss it...it is all speculation. There doesn't seem to be a lot of sense in getting irritated about it. Life's short.

[JLarson]

Doesn't matter. If DC and Marvel ignore what their fans want, they will lose sales. Every business needs to understand its customers, or prepare for eventual bankruptcy.

From a business stand point, they should care. But on a personal level, I'd rather they didn't care, and tried to make the best art possible. Because good art WILL sell. Eventually.

I want art, not a handjob.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I get the impression that there's a difference between comic fans and the consumers of most other products.

But wouldn't that mean that discussing things on the internet is a waste of time? Marvel alone pumps out a hell of a lot of advertising on the internet, which suggests that they do value the web-community a great deal, or at least see them as a significant factor, why else cater to their needs in such a fashion?

Even creators, who pay homage to their fans, often do so based on their personal experiences which were born on their websites and specifically forums.

The only difference is that the internet has a limited amount of forums, on which there can be found some heavy cliques, where comics are concerned.

Millarworlders hate Claremont and worship Morrison, here it's the exact opposite, as it is on Comixfan.

[Slam_Bradley]

Doesn't matter. If DC and Marvel ignore what their fans want, they will lose sales. Every business needs to understand its customers, or prepare for eventual bankruptcy.


Again...you're assuming that they don't understand their customers, or that you represent the entire consumer base.

[JLarson]

But wouldn't that mean that discussing things on the internet is a waste of time? Marvel alone pumps out a hell of a lot of advertising on the internet, which suggests that they do value the web-community a great deal, or at least see them as a significant factor, why else cater to their needs in such a fashion?

Even creators, who pay homage to their fans, often do so based on their personal experiences which were born on their websites and specifically forums.

The only difference is that the internet has a limited amount of forums, on which there can be found some heavy cliques, where comics are concerned.

Millarworlders hate Claremont and worship Morrison, here it's the exact opposite, as it is on Comixfan.

Just because I'm (pretending to be "them, the comic publishers") trying to spread awareness doesn't mean I either expect or want everyone to like it.

[Sir Tim Drake]

But narrative boxes seem to have largely disappeared from comics. They haven't entirely vanished, but they're much more rare than they once were. Even a decade ago, they seemed ubiquitous. These days, most comics writers dispense with them...letting the illustrations and the dialogue do the storytelling.

I think this is exactly how it should be. Comics is the art of storytelling through sequential images. Therefore the panels ought to carry the main burden of the narrative. The captions often just repeat stuff that's already obvious (or should be obvious) from the panels.

While there's nothing wrong with that per se, I do miss narrative boxes. Sometimes, the dialogue and illustrations aren't enough by themselves to completely convey the story.

In my opinion, this is a sign of bad storytelling; it indicates that the art isn't clear enough to tell the story on its own.

I think the best use of narrative captions is to provide information that compliments the panels and that the reader can't figure out just by looking at the panels. There's an example of this in Understanding Comics, where the caption says "After college I pursued a career in high finance" and the panel shows the character committing a robbery. Another example might be the "Encyclopedia Galactica" entries from Paul Levitz's Legion. These are instances of words and pictures working together to express a meaning that isn't present in either of the two on its own, and I believe that the ability to do that is the other defining quality of comics.

[JLarson]

In my opinion, this is a sign of bad storytelling; it indicates that the art isn't clear enough to tell the story on its own.

Exactly - if you need narration like that, then what you really need is a different (better?) artist.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Exactly - if you need narration like that, then what you really need is a different (better?) artist.

Or at least the artist needs to improve his storytelling ability.

[JLarson]

Or at least the artist needs to improve his storytelling ability.

Well, yeah. Which raises the question - are there enough artists "good enough" to illustrate as many graphic pulps as are published?

I would say yes, but that they're not all the ones that are currently illustrating them.

[Shellhead]

Again...you're assuming that they don't understand their customers, or that you represent the entire consumer base.

Sales are gradually declining across the industry, from year to year. Either they don't understand their customers, or they are pursuing a flawed business strategy. I know that I don't represent the entire customer base. I also know that in past years, I used to buy more than a dozen Marvel comics a month, and now I'm just buying Astonishing X-Men. There was also a time when I was buying more than a dozen DC comics a month, and now I'm buying just a few. Am I the only one? That brings us back to the declining sales.

[JLarson]

OR, you grew up.

OR, interactive entertainment has become more mainstream and has been found to be superior.

OR any number of other things.

[Huh?]

Sales are gradually declining across the industry, from year to year. Either they don't understand their customers, or they are pursuing a flawed business strategy. I know that I don't represent the entire customer base. I also know that in past years, I used to buy more than a dozen Marvel comics a month, and now I'm just buying Astonishing X-Men. There was also a time when I was buying more than a dozen DC comics a month, and now I'm buying just a few. Am I the only one? That brings us back to the declining sales.The way I look at it, is that Marvel (and others too) realize that kids have too much else to distract them today, so it is unlikely that a large number of kids will ever read comics again. In response to this they try to make their books more "adult" in style with subtle character development and without the use of captions - which was really there in the 60's - 80's to hand hold kids through a story, or make an artists pictures coherent.

I don't know whether it is the right thing to do, but it seems like the reason they are doing it to me.

There is no doubt sales are declining, but I don't know that there is much to be done about that - trades seem like a good place to start.

[Slam_Bradley]

I simply have a hard time second-guessing the business decisions of the people who were put there by the stock-holders to make them money. I'm not saying all their decisions are correct. But from my position, in po-dunk Idaho, with very little business background, I'd be loathe to make the statement that I know better than they do.

I also find it interesting that when you look at what IS selling it is manga. My guess is, that if the big two tried to follow that business paradigm, the same people would be shouting to high Heaven on the internet.

My guess, and it's a guess, is that the higher ups in the conglomerates that own the big two, care jack about comics. They are simply a vehicle for maintaining trademarks and for testing possible movie, television and product placements.

[StoneGold]

The caption boxes are still there, just usually they provide a first-person narrative now, instead of third-person omniscient. Basically, they replace the thought balloon.

[Davideaux]

Captions can also set a mood better than just an image can.

A picture says more than a thousand words they say? I can look at a picture and then turn to the next in less than a second. But I can read a caption and then look at a picture and I can then look longer and more intense at a panel.

Only pictures results in flipping through a comic in under five minutes. I'm not handing out 3 bucks to get five measely minutes worth of entertainment. That's not what I find getting my money's worth.

No, give me thought-bubbles, and captions, and give me dialogue in combination with pictures. Give me something to do and read. Set a mood, give me more insight.

As for people no longer needing everything spelled out for them? God, half the critics on the Net bitch and moan about things not being clear enough, they complain that the story is inaccessible, that there aren't proper introductions, that the characters feel flat and that the art is hard to draw conclusions from.


Yes. True. Even if many narrative boxes are filler, they add to the story. A picture might show Cap walking home after battle, but can you tell if he's merely walking, sauntering or meandering? A box would tell you and give you a glimpse into Cap's state of mind.

[StarsAndGarters]

Not weird at all, since they realize that a handful of people on the internet is specifically NOT "everybody".True. We just think we're everybody. :D

[StoneGold]

Yes. True. Even if many narrative boxes are filler, they add to the story. A picture might show Cap walking home after battle, but can you tell if he's merely walking, sauntering or meandering? A box would tell you and give you a glimpse into Cap's state of mind.
Actually, a good artist can convey that.

[Forefinger]

I miss the editorial ones. You know, the "* Uncanny X-Men # 124, Ed." ones.
I miss those too. Some comics feature a page that has stuff like it on the letters page though. And many Marvel comics have the first page devoted to setting up what's going on, so I guess they aren't needed in many comics, but I used to like it. When I was younger and reading something like the X-Men that had been around awhile, it encouraged me to get the back issues so I could get the whole story and history.

[StoneGold]

I miss those too. Some comics feature a page that has stuff like it on the letters page though. And many Marvel comics have the first page devoted to setting up what's going on, so I guess they aren't needed in many comics, but I used to like it. When I was younger and reading something like the X-Men that had been around awhile, it encouraged me to get the back issues so I could get the whole story and history.
Those have come back on very rare occasions. It popped up in Amazing Spider-Man during Sins Past. But yeah, on certain books, they really need them. Like Captain America. Brubaker keeps referencing ancient continuity, and unlike, say, Geoff Johns, he isn't just making shit up and hoping no one notices. It's almost a disservice to all the really good reference work he's done, making his story fit into old continuity without getting bogged down in it, to not have something of a reference page.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Sales are gradually declining across the industry, from year to year. Either they don't understand their customers, or they are pursuing a flawed business strategy. I know that I don't represent the entire customer base. I also know that in past years, I used to buy more than a dozen Marvel comics a month, and now I'm just buying Astonishing X-Men. There was also a time when I was buying more than a dozen DC comics a month, and now I'm buying just a few. Am I the only one? That brings us back to the declining sales.


Course this is one of those things that have multiple reasons for happening. More competition; less comics directed towards kids and when they are directed towards them they underestimate what level of intellect they are, not saying kids are all that smart but most "kids" comics do not even approach novels like Harry Potter, Alice in Wonder Land, Wizard of Oz etc....

Don't forget money; I've seen debates that even taken in fluctuation, higher cost of paper, artists, inking and etc....comics are still two to three times higher in cost than they should be.

Cost is a high factor; when Red Sonja sold its #1 issue at 25 cents it was the top selling comic of that month.

Also marketing towards teenagers quite frankly might be a bad idea; some article mentioned that nine years olds are reading alot more now and seventeen year olds are barely reading at all.

While I like the higher quality of comics in general; if your looking for a profit they might need to start aiming lower in the age brackets.

Especially considering the standards of our time; its alot easier to get away with darker, grimer and graphic things for the younger audiences than it was in yesteryear.

So the quality of the stories need not take that much of a hit to them.

[Davideaux]

Actually, a good artist can convey that.

I was going to get all 'Rumbles' board on you and ask you to show evidence. But then realized that'd be a waste of your time. I also realize you might be right but I still contend certain subtleties of behavior and action should be encapsulated with a narrative box.

[StoneGold]

I was going to get all 'Rumbles' board on you and ask you to show evidence. But then realized that'd be a waste of your time. I also realize you might be right but I still contend certain subtleties of behavior and action should be encapsulated with a narrative box.
I won't show the evidence, but I'll tell you where you can find it. Pick up the last 7 issues of Cap. I think both Epting, Lark and Leon manage to convey body language through their artwork. Granted, it's Epting, Lark and Leon, not Liefeld, but note, I said a good artist can do it. And they go a little beyond good, y'dig?

Granted, it's all in the reader's interpretations anyways. I can look at a page and see one emotion in a panel that someone else might not. That's the fun of art.

[Cei-U!]

Used properly, the narrative caption is a good tool for conveying information neither pictures nor dialogue can (or in the case of dialogue, should): time, place, smells, tastes, textures, states of mind et al. Such information can provide an extra depth to the reader's experience. We certainly don't need a return of the juvenile redundancy of the Mort Weisinger era but the modern industry's incessant and uncritical aping of cinematic techniques, in my opinion, wastes the narrative potential of the medium and results in only half a story.

Cei-U!
I summon the two-bits' worth!

[Shellhead]

Don't forget money; I've seen debates that even taken in fluctuation, higher cost of paper, artists, inking and etc....comics are still two to three times higher in cost than they should be.

I've been wondering about that specifically in the last few days. I was talking to a friend about comics last night and speculating about how much writers and artists get paid these days. It was shocking how quickly Todd McFarlane got rich in the 90's.

[Lone Ranger]

We certainly don't need a return of the juvenile redundancy of the Mort Weisinger era but the modern industry's incessant and uncritical aping of cinematic techniques, in my opinion, wastes the narrative potential of the medium and results in only half a story.

Cei-U!


I agree that we don't need to be reminded for the 50th time that Imra is Saturn Girl's real name, but I too have always been a fan of well worded narration.

Perhaps if was overdone in the 70s (didn't it seem like every Chris Claremont story started with 'You are Iron Fist and....'?), but it can be effective if handled well (see Frank Miller's Daredevil).

In terms of editorial notations - I would actually appreciate them from time to time, or at least the old Marvel Comics 'origin recap' that used to run above the title page. Otherwise, how the hell do I know how the heck Green Arrow came back to life and why Hal Jordan is the Green Spectre. I have become an old fart and need help keeping up with the retcons.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

I agree that we don't need to be reminded for the 50th time that Imra is Saturn Girl's real name, but I too have always been a fan of well worded narration.

Perhaps if was overdone in the 70s (didn't it seem like every Chris Claremont story started with 'You are Iron Fist and....'?), but it can be effective if handled well (see Frank Miller's Daredevil).

In terms of editorial notations - I would actually appreciate them from time to time, or at least the old Marvel Comics 'origin recap' that used to run above the title page. Otherwise, how the hell do I know how the heck Green Arrow came back to life and why Hal Jordan is the Green Spectre. I have become an old fart and need help keeping up with the retcons.

I prefer the bit where the inside of the cover is used for the recaps; with a basic description of all the main characters and some art thrown in.