When did Doctor Light become so popular?

[Orion101]

I mean since when was he so beloved by the villain community. From what I hear he was so pathetic that none of the other villains would even work with him now all of a sudden their all " oh how could they do this to our pal Doc Light he must be avenged'. I even saw a pic in the first issue where one of the villains screamed out "For Light". Did he suddenly become every villains best friend or something.

[Gentlegamer]

This is likely a retcon . . .

[Shellhead]

This is likely a retcon . . .

Retcon implies a certain degree of deliberation. This smacks of crap writing by a hack who doesn't give a damn.

[Gentlegamer]

Or it is part of a deliberate plan to up the danger by "rehabilitating" old lame villains . . .

[Expletive Deleted]

I think the idea wasn't "Hey, we like Dr. Light!" as much as it was "Hey, if they'd do that kind of thing to him, they might do it to me!" More righteous indignation and self interest than empathy.

But I could be wrong.

Either way, it wasn't explicated all that well.

[Yoda]

The villian community just learned of his lobotomy by the JLA recently. It's that act or violation that the villians are rallying around. Obviously Luthor is probably just using it to his advantage but it's not too far fetched to think that some of the villians would rally around him given the recent events.

[titanfan]

Plus, one of the reasons why he wasn't like was because he was an idiot buffoon. Now that he's dangerous again, he'd presumably get a little more respect among the villain community.

[Gentlegamer]

Plus, one of the reasons why he wasn't like was because he was an idiot buffoon. Now that he's dangerous again, he'd presumably get a little more respect among the villain community.I believe this was exactly the reason he put on the little show displaying his beatdown of the Teen Titans.

[bfrank]

He's the lex's poster child in his fight against the little man vs the "gods"...

dr light = their pearl harbor

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Doctor Light is just the excuse DCU's villains are using to justify their behavior.

[DMike]

Pretty much. Heck, if the rest of the villains actually out what he actually did to deserve the mindwipe in the first place, a good portion of them would either abandon him or kill him. Black Adam and Captain Cold, for example, wouldn't waste any time; they'd just say "screw this" and just kill Light like he should have been before the whole mindwipe mess started.

[Shellhead]

Doctor Light is just the excuse DCU's villains are using to justify their behavior.

Post-Identity Crisis, Doctor Light is just the excuse DCU's writers are using to justify their weak characterization.

[Captain Jim]

I mean since when was he so beloved by the villain community. From what I hear he was so pathetic that none of the other villains would even work with him now all of a sudden their all " oh how could they do this to our pal Doc Light he must be avenged'.

I dunno, I find this pretty true to life.

[chriskenny]

I think they are more concerned about what the Dr. Light incident means for them than anything else. They are banding together to tip the balance of power so that the Justice League doesn't just go around performing lobotomies on people. I think the conflict is interesting because, in one sense, you can sort of sympathize with them.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Post-Identity Crisis, Doctor Light is just the excuse DCU's writers are using to justify their weak characterization.

Then don't buy those comics. Easy as that.

[shawnh]

Even when he wasn't pathetic and stupid, he was still an asshole. I can't see many people, even villains, wanting to be his best buddy or even caring if he lived or died.

I guess the idea is he sort of represents what they're afraid might happen to them. But these guys are killers and worse. It's kind of funny they get so upset just because the superheroes didn't play by Boy Scout rules one time. After all the crap they've pulled they should have expected some retaliation.

[Joe Rice]

Bored is right. Stop reading these comics. It's great! Read good comics instead of this hack Watchmen crap. You'll find yourself actually enjoying it instead of saying "This is poorly written tripe!" Just avoid anything with that big DC swirly on it that doesn't have Grant Morrison or Kyle Baker's name on it and you'll be fine.

[chriskenny]

Even when he wasn't pathetic and stupid, he was still an asshole. I can't see many people, even villains, wanting to be his best buddy or even caring if he lived or died.

I guess the idea is he sort of represents what they're afraid might happen to them. But these guys are killers and worse. It's kind of funny they get so upset just because the superheroes didn't play by Boy Scout rules one time. After all the crap they've pulled they should have expected some retaliation.

Yeah, but think about how scary it is that not only can someone like Hawkman or Green Lantern kick the snot out of you, but they can also hold you down and change the fabric of who you are. Now, up until this point villains had sort of taken comfort in the fact that the heroes never, or at least rarely, cross the line to be executioner. But now they are cross all kinds of different lines. The writers even go so far as to suggest what was done to Doctor Light and Batman was a form of mental rape. That is some harsh stuff, when put into that light (no pun intended). So, I can see where an incident like this, done in collusion with MANY of the most POWERFUL heroes, would make people in the villain community very nervous and motivate them to coordinate and be proactive.

Chris

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Bored is right. Stop reading these comics. It's great! Read good comics instead of this hack Watchmen crap. You'll find yourself actually enjoying it instead of saying "This is poorly written tripe!" Just avoid anything with that big DC swirly on it that doesn't have Grant Morrison or Kyle Baker's name on it and you'll be fine.

Ah, but if people listened to you and me, they'd have nothing to bitch and moan about on the internet! Which, I am now convinced, is the main reason that some fans read comics these days. I think it makes them feel good to endlessly complain about comics that make them feel bad.

It is The Invasion of the Bizarro Comics Fans!

Hello.

P.S. Read Plastic Man.

[Gentlegamer]

Speaking of Doctor Light, do you think the villain revealed at the end of JLA #116 was repsonsible for returning his memories to him during the fight in Identity Crisis #3?

[Joe Rice]

Ah, but if people listened to you and me, they'd have nothing to bitch and moan about on the internet! Which, I am now convinced, is the main reason that some fans read comics these days. I think it makes them feel good to endlessly complain about comics that make them feel bad.

It is The Invasion of the Bizarro Comics Fans!

Hello.

P.S. Read Plastic Man.

Bingo. As I've said in wiser times, nothing excites an internerd more than the possibility for more bitching.

[Shellhead]

Then don't buy those comics. Easy as that.

Already done. I look through them at the comic store, but only buy a few monthly titles anymore, and I'm not wasting money on the ones that I dislike. However, since I know that some of my favorite DC writers are reading this forum, I want them to be aware of why I'm unhappy about the current direction of DC, in hopes that they will improve things.

[K'Nort]

I don't know. I do remember the original Dr Light being a valid threat to Hal a few times. GL #33 in 1964, it looks like, for example.

[Windbreaker]

Post-Identity Crisis, Doctor Light is just the excuse DCU's writers are using to justify their weak characterization.
WHAT?! Weak characterization? Or do you mean characterization that you dislike? Things like Batman being a jerk, Doc Light having a goofy costume... I understand people have differences of opinion. But DC is doing a bang up job of writing fun-to-read characters. 2 years ago, I was a Marvel-only man. Right now, I'm struggling to justify reading the few remaining Marvel titles I have.

Here are some examples of terrific DC character stories:
1) Superboy. Clone of Lex and Clark, searching for purpose/mission, somewhat "normal" life (for a superhero).
2) Hal Jordan. Love him or hate him, it's a fantastic redemption story.
3) Superman. This whole Sacrifice story is incredible. Clark isn't human - he's a powerful alien. Can humans really trust him?
4) Crisis minis. Pick one. ANY one! They're all excellent, with a careful focus on motives and causality, and it looks like they're going to bring even more interplay to the various DC hero groups.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Already done. I look through them at the comic store, but only buy a few monthly titles anymore, and I'm not wasting money on the ones that I dislike. However, since I know that some of my favorite DC writers are reading this forum, I want them to be aware of why I'm unhappy about the current direction of DC, in hopes that they will improve things.

Pardon me for being blunt, but this sounds like BS to me. If you don't like it, don't read it. Most writers with a clue in his/her head knows that most of the bile that's spouted on the internet is hardly representative of their readership. Sales speak a helluva lot louder than whatever nonsense fans speak on the internet. So, if you don't like it, stop reading it. In the store. In your home. Whatever.

Stop reading comics you don't enjoy. Period.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Bingo. As I've said in wiser times, nothing excites an internerd more than the possibility for more bitching.

And its become the most annoying thing about being a comics fans. I don't have any problem with telling people I love comics. The only thing I'm afraid of is that people will think I'm one of these stereotypical comic geeks who seem to spend all their time bitching and whining about comics. Why read crap you don't enjoy? Is it so you can feel better about yourself by trashing it on the internet to other geeks who feel the same?

For the last freaking time: Read what you like. Ignore what you don't. How hard is that to figure out?

Sorry for the snark guys. I'm just getting tired of dealing with this crap.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

WHAT?! Weak characterization? Or do you mean characterization that you dislike? .

You are my new best friend.

[SuperManny]

For the last freaking time: Read what you like. Ignore what you don't. How hard is that to figure out?


Miraculously, I've learned that when I don't read a comic I don't like, I don't bitch about it anymore. :)

In Shellhead's defense, and not that I don't agree with you Bored, shouldn't he be allowed to read it at the comic book store just to see if the writing improved?

It's a legit question!

[Yoda]

And its become the most annoying thing about being a comics fans. I don't have any problem with telling people I love comics. The only thing I'm afraid of is that people will think I'm one of these stereotypical comic geeks who seem to spend all their time bitching and whining about comics. Why read crap you don't enjoy? Is it so you can feel better about yourself by trashing it on the internet to other geeks who feel the same?

For the last freaking time: Read what you like. Ignore what you don't. How hard is that to figure out?

Sorry for the snark guys. I'm just getting tired of dealing with this crap.

My feelings exactly.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

In Shellhead's defense, and not that I don't agree with you Bored, shouldn't he be allowed to read it at the comic book store just to see if the writing improved?

It's a legit question!

Yes, but eventually any reasonable person has to learn that sticking your hand into the fire is gonna hurt, no matter how many times you try again to see if it's gotten any better.

If you know you absolutely loathe the work of Baron Jeofudd Johnsloeb Winniucka, then you'd best avoid comics written by them in the future. In other words, stop subjecting yourself to comics you don't enjoy. Otherwise, you're gonna look like an idiot who keeps sticking his damn hand into the frickin' fire just to see if its still hot.

P.S. Screw it. If I keep this up I'm only gonna piss somebody off. If reading comics you hate is what gets you off, go ahead. Knock yourself out. Personally, I think its extremely stupid, but what the hell do I know...

[Shellhead]

Pardon me for being blunt, but this sounds like BS to me. If you don't like it, don't read it. Most writers with a clue in his/her head knows that most of the bile that's spouted on the internet is hardly representative of their readership. Sales speak a helluva lot louder than whatever nonsense fans speak on the internet. So, if you don't like it, stop reading it. In the store. In your home. Whatever.

Stop reading comics you don't enjoy. Period.

Last time that I checked, CBR was still a forum for expressing opinions about comic books. In your opinion, my opinion sounds like BS. In my opinion, DC is currently dragging their wonderful heroes through sordid crap, substituting sensationalism for quality storytelling. The reason that we both post our opinions here is that we've got opinions that we want to share with other fans. Without opinions, CBR would be a pretty small site.

Several DC writers read and post in these forums. Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek, and Gail Simone wouldn't waste time here if they found our opinions as irrelevant as you do. I am hopeful that my opinions, if stated persuasively, will occasionally influence these creators.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Last time that I checked, CBR was still a forum for expressing opinions about comic books. In your opinion, my opinion sounds like BS. In my opinion, DC is currently dragging their wonderful heroes through sordid crap, substituting sensationalism for quality storytelling. The reason that we both post our opinions here is that we've got opinions that we want to share with other fans. Without opinions, CBR would be a pretty small site.

Several DC writers read and post in these forums. Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek, and Gail Simone wouldn't waste time here if they found our opinions as irrelevant as you do. I am hopeful that my opinions, if stated persuasively, will occasionally influence these creators.

In your opinion! ;)

Fine, you wanna read comics you hate so you can bitch and moan about them on the internet in some halfassed plan to influence the writing of writers who are gonna write whatever they want to anyway, go ahead. I wish you luck on this noble endevour.

[Typo Lad]

Wait... but by that logic... why go into threads about characters written by writers you know you don't like?

Same concept, no?

[Taskmaster]

You are my new best friend.Can I be your friend too? lol :D :p Because that has to be the greatest statement i've read online in a long time

[Jkid099]

Speaking of Doctor Light, do you think the villain revealed at the end of JLA #116 was repsonsible for returning his memories to him during the fight in Identity Crisis #3?

Nah, Dr. Light got his memories back the same way Batman did. Over time cracks begin to break through the magic Zatanna weaved. The final (big) one that set off all his memories returning was during the fight between Deathstroke and the group of heroes (most of whom were responsible for his lobotimization). Seeing them fighting and struggling to take Deathstroke down reminded him of how they struggled to take him down after he raped Sue Dibny.

Batman explains it best in OMAC #2 -
"I know what they did to him. And I know what they did to me. Memory is a slippery beast. It can't be controlled. Not with drugs, or emotion, or magic. With the right triggers, with enough pressure, cracks appear. Light shines in. And each new crack raises questions. And each question creates new cracks. Until the last piece falls away. Leaving the truth."

[Joe no Sleep]

Heh. I thought this thread was about the ASIAN Dr. Light, who seems to have some degree of popularity...yet doesn't appear in a lot of comics.

[Forsaken_One]

Heh. I thought this thread was about the ASIAN Dr. Light, who seems to have some degree of popularity...yet doesn't appear in a lot of comics.Yeah, I'm honestly confused at the love this character sometimes recieves. But then I heard she had a huge part in CoIE, so maybe that's it.

Plus there are fans of obscure characters like, say, Gypsy. Never mind that she almost never shows up in comics, and even when she does it's an aside, not a main character. They still seem to pine for more Gypsy. You could also replace that with any number of random Titan characters, obscure JLA characters, dead series like Major Bummer or Ambush Bug, and so on.

[Joe no Sleep]

Yeah, I'm honestly confused at the love this character sometimes recieves. But then I heard she had a huge part in CoIE, so maybe that's it.

Plus there are fans of obscure characters like, say, Gypsy. Never mind that she almost never shows up in comics, and even when she does it's an aside, not a main character. They still seem to pine for more Gypsy. You could also replace that with any number of random Titan characters, obscure JLA characters, dead series like Major Bummer or Ambush Bug, and so on.

People on the 'net just love the early 80's lineup of the Justice League. Except Vibe.

[shawnh]

I stopped reading comics I hate. The last mainline DC book I bought was the first issue of Countdown, and I didn't even finish it. I entered the thread because I've been interested in Light since reading about him in Suicide Squad and it was an intriguing question.

[Smarty Jones]

"Fine, you wanna read comics you hate so you can bitch and moan about them on the internet in some halfassed plan to influence the writing of writers who are gonna write whatever they want to anyway, go ahead. I wish you luck on this noble endevour."

I take it your ranting does not include people who pick up a book for the first time, dislike it, state why they dislike it and never read it again?

[Sk8maven]

For the last freaking time: Read what you like. Ignore what you don't. How hard is that to figure out?That's just an ironclad guarantee that the comics CREATORS won't have to bust their little noggins trying to figure out why fans won't buy their zines. They'll have NO CLUE what they're doing to annoy and alienate fans - so they'll JUST KEEP DOING IT and watching sales slowly spiral down the toilet while they wonder "How could this happen?"

Maven

[Sk8maven]

Heh. I thought this thread was about the ASIAN Dr. Light, who seems to have some degree of popularity...yet doesn't appear in a lot of comics.Brace yourself, DC's probably going to kill her off so that they can keep shoving the scumbag rapist villain in our faces. :mad:

Maven

[Paul Newell]

Guys, play nice.

I never thought I'd see the day when Dr. Light would cause a heated argument.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I take it your ranting does not include people who pick up a book for the first time, dislike it, state why they dislike it and never read it again?

Exactly. Pick up a comic that you think might interest you. If it ain't your bag, nothing wrong with telling people why you didn't like. It's when fans constantly keep checking out comics they have consistently disliked and expressing their disgust over and over and over again that's gotten tiresome.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

That's just an ironclad guarantee that the comics CREATORS won't have to bust their little noggins trying to figure out why fans won't buy their zines. They'll have NO CLUE what they're doing to annoy and alienate fans - so they'll JUST KEEP DOING IT and watching sales slowly spiral down the toilet while they wonder "How could this happen?"

Maven

No, like I said, fans should certainly express why they didn't like a comic and don't intent to buy anymore. It's the constant complaining about comics they don't like that they keep checking out again and again, that I think is a bit excessive and kinda silly.

For example, I haven't cared for the writing in the X-Men books in many, many years, so you won't see me constantly reading all the dozens of crappy X-Men comics and then railing about how crappy they are over and over on the various X-Men boards for years and years on end.

Another good example would be the GL franchise, which I did the exact opposite. I bitched and moaned and complained and generally acted like a petulant child for several years until it dawned on me to just stop checking these books out and simply wait until someone took Green Lantern in a direction I liked. The same thing is gonna happen with DC. If you don't like the current direction its going, stop reading and buying their books. If enough people do so, DC will get the message and try something different. Trust me, you guys have already made it perfectly clear what you don't like and why, there's no reason to hammer it home any more. DC has heard you. Time to move on to comics you do like.

I don't know if I'm making any sense to you, and I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou or anything of the kind. It's just I'm growing more and more frustrated with the never-ending stream of negativity from comics fans these days. There are plenty of great comics out there right now. Why waste so much time and energy railing against the ones you hate?

[Kevinroc]

No, like I said, fans should certainly express why they didn't like a comic and don't intent to buy anymore. It's the constant complaining about comics they don't like that they keep checking out again and again, that I think is a bit excessive and kinda silly.

For example, I haven't cared for the writing in the X-Men books in many, many years, so you won't see me constantly reading all the dozens of crappy X-Men comics and then railing about how crappy they are over and over on the various X-Men boards for years and years on end.

Another good example would be the GL franchise, which I did the exact opposite. I bitched and moaned and complained and generally acted like a petulant child for several years until it dawned on me to just stop checking these books out and simply wait until someone took Green Lantern in a direction I liked. The same thing is gonna happen with DC. If you don't like the current direction its going, stop reading and buying their books. If enough people do so, DC will get the message and try something different. Trust me, you guys have already made it perfectly clear what you don't like and why, there's no reason to hammer it home any more. DC has heard you. Time to move on to comics you do like.

I don't know if I'm making any sense to you, and I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou or anything of the kind. It's just I'm growing more and more frustrated with the never-ending stream of negativity from comics fans these days. There are plenty of great comics out there right now. Why waste so much time and energy railing against the ones you hate?

People on messageboards acting civil and not complaining? This concept is foreign to me.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

People on messageboards acting civil and not complaining? This concept is foreign to me.

The thing is, despite the rising tide of negativity, CBR is still the best place I know of online to discuss comics with people. I won't even bother with the Fanboy Hell that are the DC Boards or Newsarama or Millarworld or anywhere else that I've checked out. Unfortunately, it's a non-stop parade of bitching and moaning wherever I go.

[Kevinroc]

The thing is, despite the rising tide of negativity, CBR is still the best place I know of online to discuss comics with people. I won't even bother with the Fanboy Hell that are the DC Boards or Newsarama or Millarworld or anywhere else that I've checked out. Unfortunately, it's a non-stop parade of bitching and moaning wherever I go.

I know. Just joking around a little. But there are still some very vicious flame wars on CBR. This Dr. Light stuff right now is nothing compared to the Spider-Man board during Sins Past. Hell, even the ID Crisis stuff here never got as bad as Sins Past.

[Forsaken_One]

There are probably posts and complaints like this, and I'm just guessing here, because it's a lot easier to complain and whine about something than it is to praise something. I think it was a Fourth Rail reviewer who stated on Ex Machina (paraphrasing) "I got nothing more to say. Read this book. It's wonderful." The bad things about a comic, be it the art or writing or whatever, you can nitpick all day easily. The good things now? How many times can you say that the art is wonderful?

Not an excuse mind you. Just what I think is an okay explanation.

I gotta agree overall though. Don't like it? Don't read it. This is actually something that seems almost unique to the comic book fanbase; I don't see people going to see movies with actors they don't like so they can complain about them. I don't see people watching, say, Friends even though they hate it so they can have something to whine about every week. The closest I can think of is novels where you still get people complaining about the latest Wheel of Time series, but even then it's mostly because they picked up the last one and didn't like it, and have a good three years to complain before the next one tests whether or not they'll buy it.

Then again, maybe I don't check out the right (or wrong?) message boards. :)

[Windbreaker]

Yes, Bored & Taskmaster, you are welcome in my circle of superfriends! Let's see... that makes a grand total of... three of us!

[Captain Jim]

Yes, CBR is a place for people to express their opinions, but certain posters have a reputation of never having anything good to say about anything. A place to express opinions? Yes. A place where you never do anything but bitch about something or another? No.

[tricksterpup]

Yes, CBR is a place for people to express their opinions, but certain posters have a reputation of never having anything good to say about anything. A place to express opinions? Yes. A place where you never do anything but bitch about something or another? No.
Well Bananas suck!!!

As for Dr. Light, I think he was always a great villain and finally due some respect by everyone. :D
Wasn't he popular anyway?

[Shellhead]

Yes, CBR is a place for people to express their opinions, but certain posters have a reputation of never having anything good to say about anything. A place to express opinions? Yes. A place where you never do anything but bitch about something or another? No.

The comic industry is in a serious decline. Sales figures that got the X-Men cancelled in the early 70's would now be enough to make a comic the top-selling title. We can discuss the problems in hopes that somebody with the authority can fix them. Or maybe we can all think pleasant thoughts and hope things get better. Yeah, that should do the trick.

[Forsaken_One]

The comic industry is in a serious decline. Sales figures that got the X-Men cancelled in the early 70's would now be enough to make a comic the top-selling title. We can discuss the problems in hopes that somebody with the authority can fix them. Or maybe we can all think pleasant thoughts and hope things get better. Yeah, that should do the trick.
I believe the phrase for this is "delusions of grandeur" if you truly believe that you will make the industry turn around by complaining about the same thing over and over again on an Internet message board.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Or maybe we can all think pleasant thoughts and hope things get better. Yeah, that should do the trick.

And that's exactly what I and others have been advocating here. :rolleyes:

Have fun with your little stawman arguements. I'm sure they'll be much easier to argue against than actually engaging people, listening to their ideas and discussing their pros and cons.

I've told you what I think as clearly as I'm able. If you want to ignore this or dismiss this out of hand, feel free, but don't pretend I'm saying something I'm not so its easier for you.

I understand you absolutely loathe what DC & Marvel are doing with its characters these days. We all understand that. The editors & creators at DC & Marvel understand that. You've been pefectly clear on this point. There's no misunderstandings about your feelings on the matter. But the time has come to stop whining about it and turn your attention elsewhere for comics entertainment. I'm sure people can recommend some good comics you might like.

Trust me, once all this Watchmen Redux nonsense is over with, I'm sure somebody will let you know so you can come back and start enjoying the comics of your favorite supeheroes again.

[Shellhead]

I'm a businessman. For 20 years, I have worked with small and medium-sized companies, preparing budgets and tax returns, managing cashflows, controlling costs, hiring, firing, and even making collection calls. I can tell you for a fact that many business owners spend a lot of time worrying because they don't know if they are making good decisions. I do the best I can, giving them relevant, timely and accurate numbers about what has already happened. But they often wish they had more feedback from customers. Big companies can afford to do extensive market research, with phone surveys, focus groups and even blind taste tests. Small companies, at best, can afford to mail out surveys that generally get ignored.

But apparently in the bizarro world of comics, businessmen like Dan Didio and Joe Quesada don't need to know what their customers want. Never mind the gradual but steady decline in the industry, never mind the criticism from people like me, let's just watch the ship slowly sink into the ocean. Maybe that's all that can be done. Maybe kids are different today and maybe games like GTA provide so much more entertainment value per dollar that comics are doomed. Maybe. But I care enough to at least express an opinion, and I'm also voting with my wallet.

[Typo Lad]

But... the way to tell them what you want it to

(wait for it)


not buy the comics you're complaining about.

Then the retialers notice, and order less, and Marvel/DC has to decide to dtich the book or the direction.

If you're gonna complain about (for example) Austen on X-men but keep buying it, then Marvel's going to point at the sales and say "Hey, it's a top seller."

Note how the same writer was ditched from the Superman books when fans (gasp) dropped the book over his stories?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm a businessman. For 20 years, I have worked with small and medium-sized companies, preparing budgets and tax returns, managing cashflows, controlling costs, hiring, firing, and even making collection calls. I can tell you for a fact that many business owners spend a lot of time worrying because they don't know if they are making good decisions. I do the best I can, giving them relevant, timely and accurate numbers about what has already happened. But they often wish they had more feedback from customers. Big companies can afford to do extensive market research, with phone surveys, focus groups and even blind taste tests. Small companies, at best, can afford to mail out surveys that generally get ignored.

But apparently in the bizarro world of comics, businessmen like Dan Didio and Joe Quesada don't need to know what their customers want. Never mind the gradual but steady decline in the industry, never mind the criticism from people like me, let's just watch the ship slowly sink into the ocean. Maybe that's all that can be done. Maybe kids are different today and maybe games like GTA provide so much more entertainment value per dollar that comics are doomed. Maybe. But I care enough to at least express an opinion, and I'm also voting with my wallet.

And, once again, Dan Dido & Joe Quesada have heard your opinion. We've heard your opinion. We get it. We really, really do. You don't like this crap. You think it sucks. We even know why you think it sucks and why its so crappy. You've expressed yourself very clearly here. There's simply no need to elaborate further on how much you hate these comics.

All we're saying is give a freakin' rest for a little while and go read some comics you actually like before heading back to the comics you don't so you can bitch about them on the internet some more.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

But... the way to tell them what you want it to

(wait for it)


not buy the comics you're complaining about.

Then the retialers notice, and order less, and Marvel/DC has to decide to dtich the book or the direction.

If you're gonna complain about (for example) Austen on X-men but keep buying it, then Marvel's going to point at the sales and say "Hey, it's a top seller."

Note how the same writer was ditched from the Superman books when fans (gasp) dropped the book over his stories?

Well, in Shellhead's defence, he doesn't actually buy them, he just reads them in the store so he can keep up to date on how crappy they are.

[Typo Lad]

Well, in Shellhead's defence, he doesn't actually buy them, he just reads them in the store so he can keep up to date on how crappy they are.

So he doesn't actually buy the toothpicks that he sticks in his eyeball, he just uses the ones at the bar?

I swear, I will never "get" some fans.

I mean, I tried one issue of the new Aquaman, didn't like it at all. I then ignored it. As far as I was concerned, it didn't exist. THen I heard about the then-upcoming "Sub deigo" arc by the writer of H.E.R.O. (right?) and was intigued enough to pick it up. I loved it.

In my head, Aquman's last series ends when PAD left (or maybe a little before) and continues with the Sub-Deigo story. Everything in between? oh, must have been some bad fanfic I read somewhere.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I mean, I tried one issue of the new Aquaman, didn't like it at all. I then ignored it. As far as I was concerned, it didn't exist. THen I heard about the then-upcoming "Sub deigo" arc by the writer of H.E.R.O. (right?) and was intigued enough to pick it up. I loved it.

In my head, Aquman's last series ends when PAD left (or maybe a little before) and continues with the Sub-Deigo story. Everything in between? oh, must have been some bad fanfic I read somewhere.

Me too! I couldn't care less about Aquaman, although I loved PAD's Atlantis Chronicles, but the Sub Diego idea really worked for me. I don't know who came up with the idea, but its the perfect setting for Aquaman these days and allows for a bunch of cool story possibilities.

[Typo Lad]

Me too! I couldn't care less about Aquaman, although I loved PAD's Atlantis Chronicles, but the Sub Diego idea really worked for me. I don't know who came up with the idea, but its the perfect setting for Aquaman these days and allows for a bunch of cool story possibilities.

I have to admit, the latest issues "Koryak feels out of place in Atlantis" story didn't sing to me as much. All of the sudden Koryak is sensative about the fact that he's not a full-blooded Atlantean? And his skin color?

It also felt like overkill due to Manta. Remember when his goal was to create an underwater kingdom for black people?

[Shellhead]

Well, in Shellhead's defence, he doesn't actually buy them, he just reads them in the store so he can keep up to date on how crappy they are.

That's true. And the way you have (accurately) phrased that makes me feel guilty. Damn, it's hard to maintain righteous indignation under these circumstances.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

That's true. And the way you have (accurately) phrased that makes me feel guilty. Damn, it's hard to maintain righteous indignation under these circumstances.

There ya go! See, we ain't so bad! All we want is for you to stop subjecting yourself to bad comics. Just stick with the good comics while still occassionally checking out a comic you think might be bad, but might surprise you and be a decent read. And if you don't like it, feel free to tell everyone here why you hated it, then move on to something you enjoyed.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I have to admit, the latest issues "Koryak feels out of place in Atlantis" story didn't sing to me as much. All of the sudden Koryak is sensative about the fact that he's not a full-blooded Atlantean? And his skin color?

It also felt like overkill due to Manta. Remember when his goal was to create an underwater kingdom for black people?

I think that's still his shtick, isn't it? I mean, weren't those corporate creeps offering him Sub Diego as means to forward his particular brand of racial harmony?

Who is Koryak anyways? I dropped out of Aquaman, and comics as a whole, shortly after Time & Tide. The one-two punch of Emerald Twilight & Zero Hours were the last straws. By the time I came back, I'd lost track of Aquaman and, frankly, didn't really care too much about catching back up again.

[Typo Lad]

I think that's still his shtick, isn't it? I mean, weren't those corporate creeps offering him Sub Diego as means to forward his particular brand of racial harmony?

I guess. I thought they'd ignored it for a bit.

Who is Koryak anyways? I dropped out of Aquaman, and comics as a whole, shortly after Time & Tide.

Remember the Eskimo cutie Aquaman lost his virginity to?

That's her kid.

And his.

[Tsoul]

Anyone find it odd that joker kills you and fries people's brains via laughing gas, 90% of the DC villains are murderers and yet this is their righteous cause?

[Typo Lad]

Anyone find it odd that joker kills you and fries people's brains via laughing gas, 90% of the DC villains are murderers and yet this is their righteous cause?

"Sure, we actually rape people... but at least we don't mind-wipe them!"

It's an excuse, not a cause. Doctor Psycho's done far, far worse. Hell, so has Lex. And wasn't Black Adam using Mr. Mind to control his team-mates?

[Tsoul]

"Sure, we actually rape people... but at least we don't mind-wipe them!"

It's an excuse, not a cause. Doctor Psycho's done far, far worse. Hell, so has Lex. And wasn't Black Adam using Mr. Mind to control his team-mates?

Exactly, in fact when a villain dies it's a occupational hazard... but as soon as you start mind wiping people so you don't have to kill them....well that just goes too far.

It still seems kinda odd but I guess they ARE insane afterall, most of the anyways

[Typo Lad]

It still seems kinda odd but I guess they ARE insane afterall, most of the anyways

Right, which is why I see "smart" bad guys like Luthor taking advantage of it.

"Hmm... what we have here are a bunch of rag-tag thugs who are too dumb or too crazy to do anything with their gifts but rob banks and the like. I bet I can tage advantage of this 'Doctor Light' incident and play on their obvious insecurities."

[pureclint]

"Sure, we actually rape people... but at least we don't mind-wipe them!"

It's an excuse, not a cause. Doctor Psycho's done far, far worse. Hell, so has Lex. And wasn't Black Adam using Mr. Mind to control his team-mates?


They are bad guys they do not need to make reasonable logical actions!

THe point is the JLA effed with WHO Dr Light was, this is a guy who in his FIRST app took on the JLA!!! Then he became a laughing stock due to the mindwipe, Lex (who has to be the ringleader) used that point ot play on all the bad guys egos, pride and fear to unite them like never before. Dr Light is still not a favorite of the bad guys he is their Battle Cry!

As to the Black Adam point, no he did not use Mr. Mind he specificly stated he did not want his teamtes under anyones control but to join him freely. Adam really only seems to fit because he thinks the modern heroes are to weak and the threats to Kahndaq. He is far to noble to be with that Villians, hell he already has almost killed Dr. Psycho.

On top of that I agree with Bored if you dont enjoy it dont do it! DC is kicking ass right now, they finally beat Marvel in both sales and revenue after a what 4 year plus dry spot. On top of that they have mad me excited about Comics again, hell I started going during WORK every Wednsday to get my books thanks to them! I am sure some other people have looked foward to Wendsdays more recently to, and that is NOT a bad thing!

[Typo Lad]

They are bad guys they do not need to make reasonable logical actions!

Cop-out, sorry. Works for some, but not all.

Which is most likely why Gail Simone opened VU with numerous bad guys being, basically, told they were joining. If they didn't listen, they were... delt with.

THe point is the JLA effed with WHO Dr Light was, this is a guy who in his FIRST app took on the JLA!!!

So did Kanjar Roe, what's your point?

Did you ever read that first appearance? The Leage is basically like "Ha-ha-ha. WHat a pansy. Let's all kick his butt".

Then he became a laughing stock due to the mindwipe,

Again, the mind-whipe is supposed to explain why he was a laughing stock, but that was a choice the writers made years ago.

In fact, when he was in the Fatal Five, he wasn't all that pathetic.

Lex (who has to be the ringleader) used that point ot play on all the bad guys egos, pride and fear to unite them like never before. Dr Light is still not a favorite of the bad guys he is their Battle Cry!

I... I think that's pretty much what I said.

As to the Black Adam point, no he did not use Mr. Mind he specificly stated he did not want his teamtes under anyones control but to join him freely.

I thought he used Mr. Mind on Nemesis? I'll have to re-read it.

Adam really only seems to fit because he thinks the modern heroes are to weak and the threats to Kahndaq. He is far to noble to be with that Villians, hell he already has almost killed Dr. Psycho.

Yes, I know.

I can see Black Adam, of all the Six, being the one least concerned with the mind wiping.

"He raped one of your wives and all you did was wipe his mind? I would have killed him. You are weak."

On top of that I agree with Bored if you dont enjoy it dont do it! DC is kicking ass right now, they finally beat Marvel in both sales and revenue after a what 4 year plus dry spot. On top of that they have mad me excited about Comics again, hell I started going during WORK every Wednsday to get my books thanks to them! I am sure some other people have looked foward to Wendsdays more recently to, and that is NOT a bad thing![/QUOTE]

[Gentlegamer]

"He raped one of your wives and all you did was wipe his mind? I would have killed him. You are weak."I could hear Black Adam saying this, easily!

Anyone else interested in Black Adam solo book? :)

[Typo Lad]

I could hear Black Adam saying this, easily!

I'm taking this as a compliment.

Anyone else interested in Black Adam solo book? :)

I know I'd be interested in writing one.

Jones really made me interested in him. Ever since reading Doom 2099's "One Nation Under Doom" I've been fascinated by the idea that maybe - just maybe - the bad guys might actually be better rulers than we would think.

[pureclint]

Cop-out, sorry. Works for some, but not all.

Which is most likely why Gail Simone opened VU with numerous bad guys being, basically, told they were joining. If they didn't listen, they were...
delt with.

Haha dude its a throw away line, not everything has to be analyzed and commented on! But...

I dont think it is a cop out to say we do not have to understand how insane people think. Sure they are not all Joker crazy but most of the bad guys are thieves, killers, whatevers. I have had as shity a childhood as anyone, but I never thought like they do nor would I expect everything they do to make perfect sense.

I did like the VU recruitment scene, it makes sense that some of the bad guys would not trust the other bad guys.



So did Kanjar Roe, what's your point?

Did you ever read that first appearance? The Leage is basically like "Ha-ha-ha. WHat a pansy. Let's all kick his butt".

Again, the mind-whipe is supposed to explain why he was a laughing stock, but that was a choice the writers made years ago.

In fact, when he was in the Fatal Five, he wasn't all that pathetic.


And he did this prepowers with only his science, the point is it adds credance to the "character change" he underwent.

I never read him in the Fatal Five, but in his SS appearances he would go from the total idiot/coward to being a bit more secure if the situation was totally in his favor.



I... I think that's pretty much what I said.

Yeah pretty much, I was agreeing with you! :cool:


I thought he used Mr. Mind on Nemesis? I'll have to re-read it.

I have been wanting to reread it myself, but wasn't Nemesis romanticly involved with Alex to? I think Mr Mind did have control of Brainwave though.