PDA

View Full Version : Avengers: The Crossing checklist?



chiefdog
07-21-2005, 02:36 PM
I think this storyline started in about 1995 but can someone tell me what issues were involved? It had something to do with Kang as well as Iron Man betraying the team i recall.

Michael P
07-21-2005, 02:38 PM
It doesn't matter, because the comics are awful.

Valen
07-21-2005, 04:39 PM
How exactly did they retcon evil Iron Man back to good?

Expletive Deleted
07-21-2005, 04:42 PM
How exactly did they retcon evil Iron Man back to good?They went into the past, recruited a teenage version, killed EvilTony and replaced him with the teenager for a few issues, went off to Heroes Reborn, and came back with GoodTony restored.

Or something like that. Honestly, we're better off pretending it never happened.

JolietJake
07-22-2005, 11:09 PM
Honestly, we're better off pretending it never happened.

They pretty much did that in a back-up story in one of the 100-page editions of the Busiek-run didn't they? Not sure which one it was but it basically amounted to the same thing as the moment in the second Austin Powers movie where Basil says, "Don't analyze it too much, and just have fun!"

mattbib
07-23-2005, 12:43 AM
Reading Order:

Prelude - Avengers (1st series) #390
Prelude - Iron Man (1st series) #319

Part 1 - Avengers: The Crossing #1
Part 2 - Force Works #16
Part 3 - Iron Man (1st series) #320
Part 4 - Avengers (1st series) #391
Part 5 - Iron Man (1st series) #321
Part 6 - Avengers (1st series) #392
Part 7 - Force Works #17
Part 8 - War Machine #20
Part 9 - Iron Man (1st series) #322
Part 10 - Force Works #18
Part 11 - War Machine #21
Part 12 - Iron Man (1st series) #323
Part 13 - Avengers (1st series) #393
Part 14 - Force Works #19
Part 15 - War Machine #22
Part 16 - Force Works #20
Part 17 - Iron Man (1st series) #324
Part 18 - Avengers (1st series) #394
Part 19 - Avengers: Timeslide #1
Part 20 - War Machine #23
Part 21 - Iron Man (1st series) #325
Part 22 - Avengers (1st series) #395

Aftermath - Age of Innocence: The Rebirth of Iron Man #1

If you DO read the crossing, make sure you read Avengers Forever and (I think it's) the '99 Annual soon thereafter.

jackolover
05-24-2009, 10:42 PM
Did anybody read this? Can somebody tell me what was Kangs aim in attacking the Avengers with Tony Stark? I would just like to know if he had something in mind at the end of it.

As for the writing, like the posters above, it was terrible. Reading Bendis' time travel story in Dark Avengers was easier to follow. I mean, Busiek, had a good idea, but the jumps from one point to the other were untelegraphed, at all. For instance, the appearance of Tuc, and his referring to Luna as his big sister. Did that ever get addressed ever again? And Century appearing out of nowhere, again, after leaving the Avengers for outer space in Force Works storyline, was like he was plucked out of a data base and just used with no apparent connection to the story.

And is this the same Mike Deodato in The crossing who now draws the Dark Avengers?

As for the conclusion of the story, where an alternative time line, young Tony has been replaced in this timeline for the sacrificed Tony, I thought that wasn't too bad.

Also, there were some interesting future newspaper articles, where all the super heroes were hunted down to extinction, in one, and in another, Cap was called a traitor. So from a CW point of view and a HoM point of view, Tony, Steve, and Wanda had interesting past appearances that could be relevant to AD, and CW.

Michael P
05-25-2009, 04:04 AM
Reading Order:

Prelude - Avengers (1st series) #390
Prelude - Iron Man (1st series) #319

Part 1 - Avengers: The Crossing #1
Part 2 - Force Works #16
Part 3 - Iron Man (1st series) #320
Part 4 - Avengers (1st series) #391
Part 5 - Iron Man (1st series) #321
Part 6 - Avengers (1st series) #392
Part 7 - Force Works #17
Part 8 - War Machine #20
Part 9 - Iron Man (1st series) #322
Part 10 - Force Works #18
Part 11 - War Machine #21
Part 12 - Iron Man (1st series) #323
Part 13 - Avengers (1st series) #393
Part 14 - Force Works #19
Part 15 - War Machine #22
Part 16 - Force Works #20
Part 17 - Iron Man (1st series) #324
Part 18 - Avengers (1st series) #394
Part 19 - Avengers: Timeslide #1
Part 20 - War Machine #23
Part 21 - Iron Man (1st series) #325
Part 22 - Avengers (1st series) #395


So now you know which comics to avoid.

lobsterj
05-25-2009, 04:23 AM
D
I mean, Busiek, had a good idea, but the jumps from one point to the other were untelegraphed, at all. For instance, the appearance of Tuc, and his referring to Luna as his big sister. Did that ever get addressed ever again? And Century appearing out of nowhere, again, after leaving the Avengers for outer space in Force Works storyline, was like he was plucked out of a data base and just used with no apparent connection to the story.

And is this the same Mike Deodato in The crossing who now draws the Dark Avengers?


I don't think Busiek who wrote any of this abortion did he? I think he actually fixed some of the dumber parts of it in Avengers Forever, like changing the length of Kang's influence over Iron Man from essentially the start of his career to a few months.

I read an interview with Deodato where he talks about the great variance in quality of his 90's work...apparently he had a studio and work from it all got slapped with his name to help sell. Don't recall if that decision was on his end or Marvels.

jackolover
05-25-2009, 05:04 AM
I don't think Busiek who wrote any of this abortion did he? I think he actually fixed some of the dumber parts of it in Avengers Forever, like changing the length of Kang's influence over Iron Man from essentially the start of his career to a few months..

No. You're right. Bob Harras and Terry Kavanagh did this series. Apologies to Busiek.



I read an interview with Deodato where he talks about the great variance in quality of his 90's work...apparently he had a studio and work from it all got slapped with his name to help sell. Don't recall if that decision was on his end or Marvels.

Man, that is so bizzarre. I did have trouble decipherring the art, so this does make sense.

steveg887
05-25-2009, 06:39 AM
It was twenty-four parts long?

Dagger
05-25-2009, 08:29 AM
It was twenty-four parts long?

25 if you count the aftermath issue.

FanboyStranger
05-25-2009, 09:12 AM
Did anybody read this? Can somebody tell me what was Kangs aim in attacking the Avengers with Tony Stark? I would just like to know if he had something in mind at the end of it.

.

This is Busiek's welcome retcon from Avengers Forever, but it was not Kang and Mantis behind the Crossing, but Immortus and the Space Phantoms posing as Kang, Mantis, and their minions in an effort to prevent the Avengers from heading into space. Apparently, establishment of an intergalactic Avengers team would eventually lead to a universal dictatorship under Jonz Rickard, Rick Jones' decendent and wielder of the Destiny Force, and his Avengers Corps as well as other alternate variations of the theme.

mattbib
05-25-2009, 09:31 AM
Right, everyone knows that Avengers Forever added purpose to the Crossing, but the question is what was the real reason, pre-retcon, for Kang and Mantis' attack? Why did Libra join Force Works as "Moonraker"? I don't think it was ever clearly explained at the time. It all just...happened.

Mantis' involvement seemed very contrived, and reminiscent of Carol's anger at the Avengers years earlier for letting her go off with Marcus.

steveg887
05-25-2009, 10:07 AM
25 if you count the aftermath issue.

Were they all pertinent to the story, or were they more tenuously linked such as the Amazing Spider-Man issue of the "Maximum Security" crossover were it was like: Normal Spider-Man story plus "Hey, an alien!"

If it's the former then it just seems like overkill.

FanboyStranger
05-25-2009, 01:29 PM
Right, everyone knows that Avengers Forever added purpose to the Crossing, but the question is what was the real reason, pre-retcon, for Kang and Mantis' attack? Why did Libra join Force Works as "Moonraker"? I don't think it was ever clearly explained at the time. It all just...happened.

Mantis' involvement seemed very contrived, and reminiscent of Carol's anger at the Avengers years earlier for letting her go off with Marcus.

I have to agree. There was no purpose to Kang's machinations, and Mantis just seemed totally out of character throughout the whole mess. Now, Moonraker, if I remember from Force Works was placed into the story as some kind of balance to Kang's manipulation of Tony, which sort of acknowledges his role as Libra.

God, it was just awful, wasn't it? Thank God Busiek spun some gold out of this crap.

by1968
05-25-2009, 03:06 PM
Right, everyone knows that Avengers Forever added purpose to the Crossing, but the question is what was the real reason, pre-retcon, for Kang and Mantis' attack? Why did Libra join Force Works as "Moonraker"? I don't think it was ever clearly explained at the time. It all just...happened.

Mantis' involvement seemed very contrived, and reminiscent of Carol's anger at the Avengers years earlier for letting her go off with Marcus.


I had the misfortune of reading the Avengers issue of this dreck not too long ago. It reminded me why it was so easy to walk away from comics back then. What I got from those issues was that the attack was all due to Mantis wanting revenge on the Avengers because she felt they had betrayed her, from Vision going with Scarlet Witch instead of her to letting her marry a plant, all caused her to go crazy with hate and want to destroy the Avengers. Kang was along for the ride because he loved Mantis so was just doing it for her.

As for Deodato's art....this looked like early Liefeld influenced work. It seemed like quite a few Marvel artists did this around that time. Thankfully that went away.

mattbib
05-25-2009, 03:49 PM
I remember being really excited by the Crossing at the time. Even now, I like the idea of that type of story, though it was clearly X-inspired (in the way that the X-Men's enemies always seem to be self-propegated and had very little to do with protecting humanity).

jackolover
05-25-2009, 04:19 PM
Right, everyone knows that Avengers Forever added purpose to the Crossing, but the question is what was the real reason, pre-retcon, for Kang and Mantis' attack? Why did Libra join Force Works as "Moonraker"? I don't think it was ever clearly explained at the time. It all just...happened.

Mantis' involvement seemed very contrived, and reminiscent of Carol's anger at the Avengers years earlier for letting her go off with Marcus.

I agree. How Mantis got involved was a mystery, and now, she is in the GoG currently, and very nice person.

I am wondering if Kang is immune to the spuriousness of alternative timelines, and, that Mantis was from an alternative timeline in "Crossing", just like young Tony was from an alternative timeline.

jackolover
05-25-2009, 04:24 PM
I had the misfortune of reading the Avengers issue of this dreck not too long ago. It reminded me why it was so easy to walk away from comics back then. What I got from those issues was that the attack was all due to Mantis wanting revenge on the Avengers because she felt they had betrayed her, from Vision going with Scarlet Witch instead of her to letting her marry a plant, all caused her to go crazy with hate and want to destroy the Avengers. Kang was along for the ride because he loved Mantis so was just doing it for her.

As for Deodato's art....this looked like early Liefeld influenced work. It seemed like quite a few Marvel artists did this around that time. Thankfully that went away.

I seem to remember something of a vendetta here by Mantis on the Avengers, but WTF? That's it? She marries a plant and now it's all the Avengers fault, "I've got to kill them"? This is like Wanda level madness.

And yes, the Liefeld style did permeate the media back then.

alf_to_the_rescue
05-25-2009, 05:30 PM
I agree. How Mantis got involved was a mystery, and now, she is in the GoG currently, and very nice person.

I am wondering if Kang is immune to the spuriousness of alternative timelines, and, that Mantis was from an alternative timeline in "Crossing", just like young Tony was from an alternative timeline.

Mantis was a space phantom.

mattbib
05-25-2009, 06:32 PM
Mantis was a space phantom.We know that, but at the time it was intended to be the real Mantis. We're discussing the original intent of the story, not Busiek's clean-up.

Paiute 1
05-26-2009, 12:36 PM
If I'm not mistaken alot of the art was done by Benes, Ross and Cruz and yes they came from the same studio.

Kudo's to Tom Palmer for trying to keep it all together.

marvell2100
05-26-2009, 12:53 PM
The intent of the Crossing wasn't a very good idea. The execution of the Crossing was well deserved. No one thought this thing out all the way through. It is a credit to Kurt Busiek that he was able to incorporate and clean up the Crossing with his brilliant work on Avengers Forever. The motivation behind Mantis' actions are baffling at the least and Kang would need no motivation from her to attack the Avengers.

strathcona
05-26-2009, 01:51 PM
I can't be sure on this, but it's possible that Harras and Kavanaugh had bigger plans that were meant to be spread out longer, but with the Heroes Reborn deal, they were told to finish up earlier than they expected, and had to leave out some of their plans (like motivation on Mantis's part)... I am not saying that is an excuse for a very badly done storyline, but it may be at least part of the reason for it.

I too like that Busiek was able to look at this dreck and make it make sense... I want him to come back to Marvel and do the same with the dreck we are currently being given in Avengers (Mighty Avengers being the exception).

Hullababy
05-26-2009, 02:32 PM
Argh! A thread on the worst Avengers story arc ever ! The Crossing ?!?! Why ? This thread just reminded me that the crossing still exists.I am a huge Iron Man fan and the crossing is the what iron man fans would be having nightmares about.Tony actually turning into a villain.Wasn't Crossing a Emerald Twilight rip off ? Killing an elder hero and replacing him with a younger one (in this case younger version of himself) ?

marvell2100
05-26-2009, 03:50 PM
Argh! A thread on the worst Avengers story arc ever ! The Crossing ?!?! Why ? This thread just reminded me that the crossing still exists.I am a huge Iron Man fan and the crossing is the what iron man fans would be having nightmares about.Tony actually turning into a villain.Wasn't Crossing a Emerald Twilight rip off ? Killing an elder hero and replacing him with a younger one (in this case younger version of himself) ?

From one Stark fan to another, I felt your pain at the notion of that.

Captain Commander
05-27-2009, 04:13 AM
Just my 5 cents but Iron Man turning traitor and the introduction of Teen Tony (worst Avenger ever).... I won't ever read the Crossing.

by1968
05-27-2009, 06:31 AM
I seem to remember something of a vendetta here by Mantis on the Avengers, but WTF? That's it? She marries a plant and now it's all the Avengers fault, "I've got to kill them"? This is like Wanda level madness.

And yes, the Liefeld style did permeate the media back then.


Yes, it was completely bizarre and did not match any of Mantis' appearances prior to that point. If I remember right, she was in WCA for a short bit and I know she was in Silver Surfer for a while and never gave a hint of any issues and then all of a sudden these horrible events of the past caused her to hate the Avengers.

Regarding Iron Man, I thought at the end, they sort of tried to clean up the Iron Man betrayal by saying it was mind control so it wasn't actually Iron Man consciously doing the actions. He took responsibility for his actions, but he had no actual control over what was being done and I believe he ultimately sacrificed himself in the end. So for me, although it started out as a horrible mischaracterization of Iron Man, by the end I wasn't as troubled. And if my memory is wrong and that's not how it went, well I'm sticking with it anyway because I'm not going to go back and reread that garbage to figure it all out. :tongue:

NewMutant
05-27-2009, 03:41 PM
I really enjoyed Joe Mad's designs for the Avengers. Especially Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye. I loved the issue with them on the cover together. And Mike Dedato's Avengers art was great.

mindcrime
05-27-2009, 06:37 PM
well, it was also explained that tony wasnt the first choice to be mind controlled, it was hank pym. immortis tried to take over pym & that was the cause of hank pym's breakdowns ( such as when he hit janet), but pym was too unstable, so he went after tony insted. and yes, i think i may have liked the clone saga better than this plie of poo.

jackolover
05-27-2009, 06:48 PM
well, it was also explained that tony wasnt the first choice to be mind controlled, it was hank pym. immortis tried to take over pym & that was the cause of hank pym's breakdowns ( such as when he hit janet), but pym was too unstable, so he went after tony insted. and yes, i think i may have liked the clone saga better than this plie of poo.


If only that Busiek explanation would stick, but even Hank doesn't realize his wife slap was Immortus, when after SI Hank explained to Jocasta that he really did hit Jan. But it seems Marvel is discounting Busieks explanation, and want Hanks reputation stained.:mad:

Hullababy
05-28-2009, 12:19 AM
Well it was said in the crossing that Iron Man was under Kang's mind control since forever.That meant everything shellhead had done till the crossing was fake :mad: .Thank God for Avengers Forever which retconned the mind control to have been there for only a few months.

mindcrime
05-28-2009, 12:40 AM
Well it was said in the crossing that Iron Man was under Kang's mind control since forever.That meant everything shellhead had done till the crossing was fake :mad: .Thank God for Avengers Forever which retconned the mind control to have been there for only a few months.


indeed. that would have been unforgivable. actually, the crossing all ready is.

Gaastra
05-28-2009, 04:55 AM
"Yes, it was completely bizarre and did not match any of Mantis' appearances prior to that point. If I remember right, she was in WCA for a short bit and I know she was in Silver Surfer for a while and never gave a hint of any issues and then all of a sudden these horrible events of the past caused her to hate the Avengers."

She was in the fantastic four also. This was around the beyonder quest, she teamed up with the fantastic four and silver surfer to fight--Kang!

Didn't we find out kang in the crossing was not kang but immortas (misspelled?) or something?

Kurt Busiek
05-28-2009, 12:10 PM
If only that Busiek explanation would stick, but even Hank doesn't realize his wife slap was Immortus, when after SI Hank explained to Jocasta that he really did hit Jan. But it seems Marvel is discounting Busieks explanation, and want Hanks reputation stained.:mad:

That wasn't my explanation -- I think I made it clear in AVENGERS FOREVER that it really was Hank, no outside influence.

I think it's better -- as with the Avengers' failure to protect Carol Danvers in #200 -- for heroes' failings to be acknowledged and overcome, not whitewashed and erased.

Trouble is, Hank doesn't seem to be allowed to overcome his failing, no matter how hard he tries. Ah well.

kdb

mindcrime
05-28-2009, 03:35 PM
guess thats what i get for not reading avengers forever:redface:

jackolover
05-28-2009, 08:59 PM
That wasn't my explanation -- I think I made it clear in AVENGERS FOREVER that it really was Hank, no outside influence.

I think it's better -- as with the Avengers' failure to protect Carol Danvers in #200 -- for heroes' failings to be acknowledged and overcome, not whitewashed and erased.

Trouble is, Hank doesn't seem to be allowed to overcome his failing, no matter how hard he tries. Ah well.

kdb

I missunderstood mindcrimes explaination. Sorry. And sorry for mistaking you as the author of Crossing too.

Well, I thought Hanks failing, in regards to wifebeating, came out of left field. That whole going nuts period he had was out of character to me. But, as you say, Marvel are having trouble getting Hank redeemed in that regard. However, saying that, I am quite pleased with how Dan Slott is handling Hank, in MA, now that Jan is gone from the scene.

Captain Commander
05-28-2009, 11:32 PM
Well it was said in the crossing that Iron Man was under Kang's mind control since forever.That meant everything shellhead had done till the crossing was fake :mad: .Thank God for Avengers Forever which retconned the mind control to have been there for only a few months.

Yup, exactly the reason I won't read the Crossing. Avengers Forever on the other hand was very cool.

EuropaBambaataa
05-31-2009, 08:06 AM
If only that Busiek explanation would stick, but even Hank doesn't realize his wife slap was Immortus, when after SI Hank explained to Jocasta that he really did hit Jan. But it seems Marvel is discounting Busieks explanation, and want Hanks reputation stained.

The way everybody keeps bringing up the Wifebeater Hank angle, it seems people keep misenterpreting Hank and Jan's marriage.

It always seemed to me that Jan was the alpha in the relationship and Hank always did whatever she wanted, especially in regards to superheroics. He wanted to write and she wanted to continue in the team and to have Hank by her side.

I never equated Hank lashing out against Jan as a violent husband striking his helpless wife. To me, that was the same as the abused wife (or, in a role reversal, husband) lashing out against her usual her (or in this case his) attacker.