Ultimates 2 #7 (BIG Spoilers)

[Adem]

Ok so we start off with seeing how The Ultimates crippled that nation and then see Tony talking to Thor in his jail cell. There are a lot of protestors outside now demading Thor's freedom. We then cut to see Janet on a lunch date with Hank and Janet says how she doesn't like to be with Captain America anymore because its like being with your grandfather and how she hasn't been on the last two missions. We also see someone watching them from a car, but thats only in the last panel of their date. At the end a swat like team breaks into Hawkeye's home and kills him and his family. So what did everyone think of this issue? I enjoyed it, but am mad that Hawkeye died.

[Escron]

Gee... I guess Hawkeye cant be alive anywhere.... :(

[Tobias March]

Millar's taking the piss! :p

[adrock8203]

Too bad we didn't get to find out who the traitor is, but i think it does give more hints and narrow it down a bit. I just can't see cap killing innocent women and children, Fury on the other hand...

[Sheldon]

HAhahahaha...Millar must have been pissed off when the delays pushed his killing off HAwkeye a year after Bendis did....

[jetter_cheeze]

Gee, that list of traitors keep narrowing down to cap, i mean, keeps narrowing down, doesn't it?

[thik_3rd]

yeah, i mean c'mon... "soldier". cap pulled the trigger. but is he the traitor? too obvious. maybe someone else is ordering him to do it, making the person he's taking order's from the traitor. the obvious answer would be fury. but i kinda doubt that too, because thats too obvious as well, plus it would effect his standing in the other ultimate u titles too much, and he appears fairly regularly in ultimate x-men.

[Gatman]

Ok so we start off with seeing how The Ultimates crippled that nation and then see Tony talking to Thor in his jail cell. There are a lot of protestors outside now demading Thor's freedom. We then cut to see Janet on a lunch date with Hank and Janet says how she doesn't like to be with Captain America anymore because its like being with your grandfather and how she hasn't been on the last two missions. We also see someone watching them from a car, but thats only in the last panel of their date. At the end a swat like team breaks into Hawkeye's home and kills him and his family. So what did everyone think of this issue? I enjoyed it, but am mad that Hawkeye died.


All very accurate information about todays issue except for the major part in the book that you say Hawkeye died I refuse to believe this and I have to theories that explain why. I'll start with my weak theory which I don't think will happen which is Hawkeye has one last thing up his sleeve to kill the man with the gun to his head. The one that I think will happen in issue 8 is, well you know who wanda left her purse at clints house. Well I think that her and maybe Quicksilver come back to get it. Then see the men with the weapons charge into the house and see them kill his wife. So they go back to the house to save Clint and his children but are to late for callum but just in time to save clint.(hopefully one of those scenarios are true!)

[pureclint]

Very good issue, I was pleasantly surprised by it after some of the trends in the last few.

But even more so it makes no sense to have Cap as the traitor, if that was the traitor busting Hawkeyes ass (I am not sure why everyone thinks it is, ZERO hints lead to that so far and Thor does say the enemies will strike soon). No way would Cap, shoot innocent women and kids. If it turns out to be him then as stated earlier I am droppign the book.

[bushboy]

This could get rid of Cap, YaY! Am I the only one who noticed that the people watching Janet and Hank are working for the traitor.

[thik_3rd]

how do you not see the hints that the traitor is cap? at this point i'd say theyre so obvious as to make me think theyre a red herring.

[Jake V]

how do you not see the hints that the traitor is cap? at this point i'd say theyre so obvious as to make me think theyre a red herring.
Well, the biggest thing that prevents the traitor being Cap is that they KILLED INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Cap DOESN'T DO THAT. Even if he is kind of a dick in the Ultimate universe.

Cap being arrested on the cover of #8 just means that he gets arrested. Not that he's a traitor.

[boojangle]

Yeah, a lot of the signs seem to point to Captain America. And to some extent he would have motivation to do it -- A sort of antiquated disillusionment with what America has become. But youre right -- killing the innocents seems a bit extreme even going with Millar's take on him being more soldierlike and less Boy Scoutish.

There are two things that are hard for me to reconcile if he turns out to be the traitor:

1) Supposedly the traitor leaked the Ultimates affiliation with the Hulk. Captain America, when he heard about the leak, stormed off to hunt down Thor. I suppose that you could say that it was all an 'act' to cover up the fact that he was the one who leaked them but still...

2) Also the whole conversation in the latest issue between Hank and Janet. Supposedly Hank knows the traitor. If the traitor was Cap would the conversation have realistically been anything like what it actually was?

As for Fury being the traitor. Im new to the boards and never really considered that. Im not sure what possible motivation he could have for it but its the only other remote possibility given the 'soldier' remark inserted at the end. Black Widow maybe?

Its been a bad year for Hawkeye. I hope the earlier poster is right and he gets saved by Wanda at the last minute. It would make up for her killing him in Bendis' world.

--Scott

[thik_3rd]

Cap DOESN'T DO THAT. Even if he is kind of a dick in the Ultimate universe.

i wouldnt put that past ultimate cap at all.

[Doom Hammer]

Goodbye, Ultimate Hawkeye. You were arguably the least fleshed-out character of all the Ultimates, and I regret that we never really got to know you well. Or at least, not as well as I'd have liked to. You had a good run, though, in spite of your underexposure.

Say "hi" to Beast for me. :(

[TylerDurden420]

ULTIMATE HAWKEYE LIVES MOTHERF*CKER!

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

[pureclint]

i wouldnt put that past ultimate cap at all.

Why? he has been shown as a very heroic guy. What have you seen that would lead you to think Captain America would shoot the wife of a team mate (Go watch Black Hawk Down for some idea of what your crew means to a soldier), his son and the team mate himself?

[Gatman]

Well, the biggest thing that prevents the traitor being Cap is that they KILLED INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Cap DOESN'T DO THAT. Even if he is kind of a dick in the Ultimate universe.

Cap being arrested on the cover of #8 just means that he gets arrested. Not that he's a traitor.


I DEFINATLY AGREE! For all we know these killers can be some terrorists from the third world country looking for revenge against the men who dismantled thier counrty, its NOT NECESSARILY THE TRAITOR! And ultimate captain america grew up in the 40's and he is a well mannered man who has morals and would never EVER would kill a innocent women and child! Does anyone else think we might find out Thor is a god by the end of this? And that Loki has been behind everything this whole time.





Oh yeah and one more thing HAWKEYE IS NOT DEAD!!!!

(hopefully)

[depredadora]

For me seems a few obvius that something is involucrating the captain america, for can put him in jail or stop him, or break the team.

The captain is a jerk, but i dont see him kill witch blood cold, womans and childs, and why hawkeye? if captain wanted kill something for be pissed or so, ill be Nick Fury (Super Soldier program, and all monsters that created cuz that).

[Gatman]

Did anyone else notice that there is another man listening in on Jan and Hanks conversation besides the man in the car? The first pager of thier "lunch date" second panel I think, that there is another man who looks awfully suspicious.

[pureclint]

I DEFINATLY AGREE! For all we know these can be some terrorists from the third world country looking for revenge against the men who dismantled thier counrty, its NOT NECESSARILY THE TRAITOR! And ultimate captain america grew up in the 40's and he is a well mannered man who has morals and would never EVER would kill a innocent women and child!



Exactly what I said, as of now we have no clue the Murderers are working for the Traitor.

[Gatman]

Why? he has been shown as a very heroic guy. What have you seen that would lead you to think Captain America would shoot the wife of a team mate (Go watch Black Hawk Down for some idea of what your crew means to a soldier), his son and the team mate himself?


I agree


well put

[Gatman]

Now at the end of the issue they show a gun trigger being pulled right? How do we know it the man who had the gun to clints head? Its made for us to assume that its the same man and gun, but it could be someone else shooting at the attacker or it could be a miss fire (caused by an unbelievable move hawkeye makes). At the end of the issue you never see Hawkeyes dead body so at this point i'm saying he is still alive!

[pureclint]

I agree


well put


Thanks!

Now was Hawkeye a bad ass in this issue or what? Man he puts Bullseye moves on the bad guys, "Shouldn't have dropped me in the freakin kitchen..." is a great lead to a spoon in your eye. And he even does that after taking what looks like 4 shots from a assault rifle.

I agree, and hope, that Quicksilver saving him is very likely. I think this was my favorite issue of Ultimates series 2 so far, we got to see Caps tactical mind and yet another example of Millar making a MU guy just more bad ass in the Ultimate U (Remember Clint and Wanda taking out the skrulls how cool was that?). The big action is something series 2 has lacked compared to series one.

I also feel he dialed back some of his views that were seaping in which is a good thing. He showed better balance by having Tony there to talk to Thor even if his the criticism of the US for using Atomic Weapons and the China thing were a bit out of wack (as Economist pointed out), I was satisfied with how Tony handled it even though he could have corrected Thor more. I was not looking foward to this Issue at all but now I am excited about the next issue (Perhaps Cap gets framed? What could be worse for the Ultimates then Cap going to jail?)

[Gatman]

Thanks!

Now was Hawkeye a bad ass in this issue or what? Man he puts Bullseye moves on the bad guys, "Shouldn't have dropped me in the freakin kitchen..." is a great lead to a spoon in your eye. And he even does that after taking what looks like 4 shots from a assault rifle.

I agree, and hope, that Quicksilver saving him is very likely. I think this was my favorite issue of Ultimates series 2 so far, we got to see Caps tactical mind and yet another example of Millar making a MU guy just more bad ass in the Ultimate U (Remember Clint and Wanda taking out the skrulls how cool was that?). The big action is something series 2 has lacked compared to series one.

I also feel he dialed back some of his views that were seaping in which is a good thing. I was not looking foward to this Issue at all but now I am excited about the next issue (Perhaps Cap gets framed? What could be worse for the Ultimates then Cap going to jail?)




Yeah out of all the ultimates this issue makes hawkeye the most tragic character and the character I respect the most. He took down Fricken professionally trained assassins with the latest weapons and technology with kitchen utensils! And maybe cap. gets framed by someone of the likes of Loki????? (or maybe not but who knows).


AWESOME!!!!

[OMGDRAN]

If they were gonna kill off a character, I dont think they'd do it so ambigous. If hawkeye was really dead, we would have a atleast panel of a shot to his cranium. Throw some shock in there.

If anything, cap is a soldier and no soldier i know would willingly and knowlingly murder women and children in cold blood.

[crackin' skrulls]

Cap being arrested on the cover of #8 just means that he gets arrested. Not that he's a traitor.

damn, i knew i stayed away from those cover previews for a reason...kinda sucks he get's arrested next issue...jail ain't no fun.

random thoughts...

millar must love coffee...

is it possible there is more than one traitor???

at first i thought wasp might be setting up pym, but the comments from hawkeye's wife (rip) seem to paint her as a true biiiiaaaaaaatch...

hawkeye puttin' a meat cleaver in that one dude's melon was sweet...

THOR is rapidly becoming my favorite character in this book...

[overcomebyfumes]

I still say it's Jarvis.
.

[Grimm24]

If you have seen some of the upcoming Ultimates 2 covers, one shows Red Gloves in hand cuffs

Im guessing someone is setting Cap up, maybe Ultimate Red Skull???

We all know Cap would never do this mainly because he's a nice guy and Hawkeye is his freind

Either way I think Cap is going to wrongfully accused

[cosmicspidey]

It seems silly that Marvel would release an image of the cover to Ultimates #8 which shows Cap to be the traitor if he really was. So either a) Cap is framed as the traitor, or b) the cover to #8 will show someone besides Cap in handcuffs. Everyone's basing their assumption that it's Cap over the red gloves. But guess what, so is the head, and last time I checked Cap's head wasn't red. It's a deliberate mislead, much like the hype over the 616/Ultimate crossover in UFF.

So I think Hawkeye might be being framed as the traitor. I don't think he's dead, and he'll be brought in for questioning in #8, where we'll finally learn at the end of the issue who the traitor really is.

[StoneGold]

If you have seen some of the upcoming Ultimates 2 covers, one shows Red Gloves in hand cuffs

Im guessing someone is setting Cap up, maybe Ultimate Red Skull???

We all know Cap would never do this mainly because he's a nice guy and Hawkeye is his freind

Either way I think Cap is going to wrongfully accused
I was thinking something about that. Because I think Ultimate Red Skull was supposed to be Kleiser.


What if SHIELD missed some of Kleiser?

[yorickbrown]

It's Freddy Prinze Jr.!! He got really pissed when the Ultimates denied his application to the Super Soldier Program and has formed this anti-Ultimates squad. Just look at the traitor's hand. It's slightly feminine with a thin wrist. All evidence points to Freddy.

[DarkCrisis]

I was shocked that it shows a small child getting shot and killed in this book. There isn't even a "Mature Reader" label on the front. I found it very very disgusting to show.

I'm all for violence but I thought that was stepping over the line in this case.

[StoneGold]

I'm going to have to read through the issue again, but I'm pretty sure you never actually see the kid get shot. Just implied.

[Sentry]

yeah the kd dies but we dont see hawkeye die.


maybe there is hope still for him yet, even in the ultimate universe.

[Gatman]

I'm going to have to read through the issue again, but I'm pretty sure you never actually see the kid get shot. Just implied.



Yeah you just see blood splatter on hawkeyes face, then you see hawkeye holding his sons head with blood running down his hand to let us know that his son was shot in the head.

still, very sick and depressing

[Brock]

Surely Hank Pym will go straight to Fury & co with the traitor's identity when he hears about what has happened (he's a messed up guy, but he wouldn't cross that line). So a big question is why did the traitor even try to enlist Pym as an ally in #6?

#8 and beyond should be very satisfying reading.

[pureclint]

Surely Hank Pym will go straight to Fury & co with the traitor's identity when he hears about what has happened (he's a messed up guy, but he wouldn't cross that line). So a big question is why did the traitor even try to enlist Pym as an ally in #6?

#8 and beyond should be very satisfying reading.


Again we still do not know that the people who attacked Hawkeye at home work for or are allied with the traitor. No need to jump to that conclusion with no evidence, especially after Thor mentioned they would get attacked soon by a enemy who was against them taking the nukes.

I do find it ironic that if that is the case, then the people who share Thor's ideals of not removing nuclear weapons from tyrant countries would kill innocent women and kids.

[crystalline green]

I heard Wanda finally used her powers this issue. Can anyone report on what she did?

I have only Ultimate Wanda to worship now that my beloved 616 Wanda's been retconned beyond reason and recognition... :(

[Mike Smash!]

Again we still do not know that the people who attacked Hawkeye at home work for or are allied with the traitor. No need to jump to that conclusion with no evidence, especially after Thor mentioned they would get attacked soon by a enemy who was against them taking the nukes.

I do find it ironic that if that is the case, then the people who share Thor's ideals of not removing nuclear weapons from tyrant countries would kill innocent women and kids.It was never said that the traitor shared Thor's ideals. Thor openly warned Tony about the traitor.

The traitor from the sound of it, is most likely nihilistic and jaded, rather than ideological. The traitor has never put up the front of being a "good guy" or acting for moral reasons. They seem to just be pissed and feel betrayed so they're lashing out and looking to just kill everyone.

I think the people who killed Clint anfd his family were fairly obviously with the traitor, if only because before he killed him, his exact words were, "Big surprise?".

With this and him referring to him casually as Clint, it's fairly obvious that he knows him, along with the artist keeping the killer's face out of it and emphasis on the gloves.

[Grimm24]

Actully with much consideration I think that Nick Fury is the traitor

Why?? Think about it, if anyone is going to try to frame Cap its going to be him because of all the pressure Cap keeps putting on him for basicly starting this genetic war with the Giant Men and the Super soldier syrum

Also, I think the next victim will be Hank Pym or maybe Janet. The cover up could be that he found out she was cheating on him with Hank.

Of course we all know Cap would never ever do that

In the end its going to be up to Tony to figure this out considering he is basicly the only one who isnt in on this and Wanda and Pietro might help too.

[StoneGold]

Hm. Sudden thought as to why it might not be Fury. It would really screw up the Ultimate Spider-Man game coming out this year, which Fury takes a pretty big cameo in.

That said, it could be something which appears to be Fury.

[MatthewC]

Here's a question everybody should be asking themselves. Hawkeye is murdered, along with his wife and kids.

Why? Who benefits?

As someone in this thread pointed out, so far Hawkeye has been a very bland character. He was just a guy doing his job, and he was useful to the Ultimates, but it's not like they couldn't get along without him. So why Hawkeye?

It seems very unlikely that someone was angry at Hawkeye personally, so it has to be that he was killed to provoke a reaction. Someone wants the Ultimates very, very angry and howling for blood. The fact that he had a wife and kids (and they specifically went after the kids) just makes the reaction provoked even more intense and is likely one reason why he was chosen.

My prediction? Next issue the Ultimates think they find out who is responsible, and they head off hell-bent on taking revenge. They are, however, wrong. The person or persons they think is responsible were actually framed by the real responsible parties.

Anyone have an alternate theory?

[Jagernaut]

To slightly change the subject...

What does Wanda do? Seriously, what are her powers? So far she can make a really big pink force field/energy blast. Has she done anything else of substantial merit in the Ultimates?

[Ivan Isaacs]

Who benefits?

Someone who carries a flamethrower just in case?

Serious: I don't have a clue, but I'm hoping that Clint is still alive.
Where did all this hate for him come from anyway?

[Ivan Isaacs]

*server hickup makes funny double posts*

[pureclint]

It was never said that the traitor shared Thor's ideals. Thor openly warned Tony about the traitor.

The traitor from the sound of it, is most likely nihilistic and jaded, rather than ideological. The traitor has never put up the front of being a "good guy" or acting for moral reasons. They seem to just be pissed and feel betrayed so they're lashing out and looking to just kill everyone.

I think the people who killed Clint anfd his family were fairly obviously with the traitor, if only because before he killed him, his exact words were, "Big surprise?".

With this and him referring to him casually as Clint, it's fairly obvious that he knows him, along with the artist keeping the killer's face out of it and emphasis on the gloves.


Do both Thor and the Traitor share many of the same views regarding the Ultimates actions? Yes. Is one of those views regarding the removal of nuclear weapons from middle east country? Yes. If you read just this issue, yes Thor warns Tony that repercussions are coming due to their actions but most people who disagree with your actions warn you against them, more so if they are your Friend. It is Ironic that the murders and Thor (the supposed savior of the series) share the same views regarding the Ultimates actions.

If your read the segment with the murders again, the guy could be talking about the the fact that his wife and kids got killed being the surprise. Like are you actually surprised we attacked after what you did in the middle east. He did not bust in and say first off "are you surprised?" when Clint saw him. Also, they could not be showing the faces of the killers for the purpose just to make you think it is the traitor when in the end it is not. As to calling him Clint, dude the Ultimates are the most famous people on the planet I am sure everyone knows his name and calling him Clint is just being adding insult to injury. And Clint did not react like he knew who the killer was. Wouldn't he say Nick, Steve, you or whatever if it was one there? Thor says "they are allready taking steps against you" when regarding the enemies of Fury's actions.

But of course it could just as easily be the traitor, I just pointing out everyone is saying it is as fact when so far we do not know that. Or it could be the traitor is feeding them there intel as Thor also hints.

[OMGDRAN]

To slightly change the subject...

What does Wanda do? Seriously, what are her powers? So far she can make a really big pink force field/energy blast. Has she done anything else of substantial merit in the Ultimates?


Actually, I remeber in a Ultimate X-men Arc that wanda was able to fly off with some nukes when the Brotherhood decided to disarm a nuke capable country as a show of good faith. I'm not exactly sure how she flew off with them but she did.

[lonewolf23k]

To slightly change the subject...

What does Wanda do? Seriously, what are her powers? So far she can make a really big pink force field/energy blast. Has she done anything else of substantial merit in the Ultimates?

Apparantly, she's some sort of high-level telekinetic, I think.

[Nick Kal]

Traitor is...

Nick Fury - No.

Captain America - No.

Bruce Banner - Maybe... not.

Betty - Bingo.

Think about the phone call Pym received after Hulk was "killed"... I think it somehow has something to do with Pym helping Hulk escape somehow and who would appreciate that? Betty.

Also, the word soldier is used. Sure Cap or Fury are the most likely, but her dad was a General and she can use the lingo too. Plus, She has connections to get people on her side that are trained with weapons. Also, taking out someone who seems to be the least impressive or used member is a good way to get their attention w/out completely getting them too nuts.

Also, Hank & Jan or so friendly again.. hmm, Betty is friends with Jan, and how could Hank benefit from a friendship with Betty the traitor.. one thing is getting Jan back.

Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe I'm right.

[Nick Kal]

Guys.. this thread isn't about political issues. It is about Ultimates 2 #7. Millar just gave Thor something we call life. He made him a real character who has things to say about the world around him. Does Millar agree? Who cares, this isn't about Millar.

Now on to the topic at hand.. the traitor.. anyone agree about Betty?

[Jake V]

Guys.. this thread isn't about political issues. It is about Ultimates 2 #7. Millar just gave Thor something we call life. He made him a real character who has things to say about the world around him. Does Millar agree? Who cares, this isn't about Millar.

Now on to the topic at hand.. the traitor.. anyone agree about Betty?
Betty? I just find it hard to believe that she'd be as handy with a pistol as the person who shot hawkeye.

I wouldn't put it past her to leak the info about Banner being the Hulk, but the bit at the end of the current issue just seems too beyond the realm of her capabilities.

[Nick Kal]

Betty? I just find it hard to believe that she'd be as handy with a pistol as the person who shot hawkeye.

I wouldn't put it past her to leak the info about Banner being the Hulk, but the bit at the end of the current issue just seems too beyond the realm of her capabilities.

She grew up around armies. Do you think she didn't learn about any self defense or offensive tactics in all thos years with her dad?

[Jake V]

She grew up around armies. Do you think she didn't learn about any self defense or offensive tactics in all thos years with her dad?
I don't know if she has the same history as her Marvel Universe counterpart. Even if she picked up a few things from Thunderbolt Ross, she wouldn't be rolling with special forces dudes.

[Nick Kal]

I don't know if she has the same history as her Marvel Universe counterpart. Even if she picked up a few things from Thunderbolt Ross, she wouldn't be rolling with special forces dudes.

Why not? What do you have to disprove her really? Assumptions?

[Jake V]

Why not? What do you have to disprove her really? Assumptions?
Well what do you have to prove her? Assumptions?

[Nick Kal]

Well what do you have to prove her? Assumptions?

But i backed them up at least. Yours are just plain assumptions. I mean beyond you don't think so what is there to argue my point. I'm sure there's something.

[Jake V]

But i backed them up at least. Yours are just plain assumptions. I mean beyond you don't think so what is there to argue my point. I'm sure there's something.
I'm basing mine on how the reveal would pan out. I mean, the disappointment of the year would be to find out that the traitor on the Ultimates isn't even a member of the team. Millar is writing for an audience, not for kicks. He knows that he's got to please the audience, and to have the traitor the series has been teasing turn out to be a character last seen in issue 3 would be quite a bad move.

Sure, it's a possibility, but from a meta perspective, it would be a letdown.

[KAy]

Now on to the topic at hand.. the traitor.. anyone agree about Betty?

Dude, honestly, I don't have a slightest clue, really! And that's great -- just about anyone could be the traitor. Next issue should be very interesting.

[Rik]

I'm still betting on Natasha. I can much more easily picture her accompanying a squad of commandos than Betty. And aren't she and Clint supposed to be friends? Or at least, partners? So, the "surprised?" comment makes more sense.
It's already been pointed out that the traitor has feminine mannerisms. (Can't imagine Cap saying, "Oh, Hank" to Pym, for example.) For a while I thought they'd try to throw us a curve by making it Jarvis (who'd ever believe that "the butler did it"?) but I can't see Jarvis being involved with combat ops to that degree. If he does have combat training, it's never been mentioned AFAIK, and he definitely looks out of shape. So it's Betty, Jan, Wanda, or...the Widow. The Widow, who started as a spy for America's enemies, turned...wait for it...TRAITOR...against her own country because she came to believe in the American ideals...and now, feels that those ideals have been abandoned.

Oh, and speaking of Wanda...I got the impression that she was using some kind of spell on the missiles to render them harmless. That's what she was talking about immediately before (being afraid that if she screwed up they might detonate). And the missiles were still there after her little light show, so she didn't get rid of them entirely. Probably just changed the plutonium into lead or something.

I absolutely agree with Matthew that the Ultimates will BELIEVE they've discovered the traitor next issue, but they'll be wrong.

And Thor is going to be released sooner or later, because I'll bet a doughnut that for some contrived reason, it will be discovered that the belt and hammer ONLY work for him now. And they'll need his power sooner or later. Whether or not he's actually a god or just a nutcase will be left ambiguous, probably indefinitely.

[Melissa]

But i backed them up at least. Yours are just plain assumptions. I mean beyond you don't think so what is there to argue my point. I'm sure there's something.
Loki told Thor that the traitor was on the team. Betty's not, so that counts her out.
Not that Jake had to be so... dismissive.

I think the dialogue with Hank in #6 was a Fight Club moment. I think that explains some of the language that's being called 'feminine' when really it's just familiar.

He sure seems sure of himself over lunch, and we all know who he is when he's sure of himself...

So I say the traitor's initials are UYJ.

[bushboy]

hmmmmmmmm....Hulk is back. Maybe...

[Dussan]

Wait, wait.

Betty the traitor? Didn't the traitor tell the media about the Hulk being Banner?
If so, then she killed Bruce Banner. Which woud SUCK ASS!

I refuse to see Betty as the one that betrayed Banner, after she mourned so hard for him when he was sentenced to death.

But I have to admit, it would be a kick ass twist.

Also who the hell is UYJ?

[bushboy]

Also who the hell is UYJ?
Hank Pym?
*stupid character limit*

[Rik]

Also who the hell is UYJ?

Ultimate Yellow Jacket, referring to the theory that the traitor is Hank, or at least one of his schizo other personalities, and that the conversation he had with the traitor was all in his head.

I don't buy it, though. They've already got Ultimate Thor, and one psycho character is enough.

[Dussan]

Ahh.

Man I do not want Clint to die. Ultimate Hawkeye is superior.

[Gatman]

It would be kind of hard of the ultimates to get the wrong traitor unless Hank becomes a bastard and has no remorse for clints family!

[Tobias March]

Yellow Jacket would be interesting....Hank talks about a company he is working for that is boring him to death. Perhaps in his delusion he imagines himself doing research for some facility, while his alter-ego goes about bumping off Ultimates. It would be quite strange for Hank to be so complicit with the traitor who is not merely expressing doubts about the team's objectives, but is actively killing members.

Or theory number two - Ultron!

Remember in 616 Ultron hypnotised Hank in order to make his escape? Perhaps here Ultron and Vision are mounting a hostile takeover of the team and once again a 'sleeper', identity has been created by the AI for Hank while he acts out the instructions programmed into him. This would allow the slim possibility of redemption for the character in about, oooh, ten years or so ;)

Yes Hank makes some small sense. He was speaking to Bruce about his concerns over the nature of the team at present. He was working ridiculous hours (and here the comparisons mentioned above to Fight Club come into play) and in doing so created Ultron or had some schizoid break which in turn created Ultimate Yellow Jacket!

Hmmmn.....very Tyler Durden.

[Drunkenthumbs]

I don't think it's cap or Fury. First all I'm not buying that Thor's a nut with a super utility belt. He has pleaded with cap before telling Cap he wasn't the one who leaked Bruce was the Hulk.

This issue he warns Tony to tell Fury to watch his path the enemies are going to strike.

Now if you are going to believe that Thor is not a luck there has been a lot allusion as to he knows who the traitor is even beyond thinking it's just loki.

My bet is The black widow every sense the proposal where she cried it just seemed phoney to me is all. And plus she's a spy.

[surt_son]

I like the idea of Yellow Jacket being the traitor. If we are to believe that Thor is telling the truth that the spy is on the team then that would rule Hank out. So I'll go back to my first guess which is Jan. She has the perfect power for spy work and she's had an in with the big players of the Ultimates.

Here's what I think might happen if and when Cap gets taken into custody: More attacks occur to the underbelly of the Ultimates, their numbers are further reduced, and the incarcerated Steve Rogers and his cell mate, Thor bust out and save the day.

~t

[Nick Kal]

Loki told Thor that the traitor was on the team. Betty's not, so that counts her out.
Not that Jake had to be so... dismissive.

I think the dialogue with Hank in #6 was a Fight Club moment. I think that explains some of the language that's being called 'feminine' when really it's just familiar.

He sure seems sure of himself over lunch, and we all know who he is when he's sure of himself...

So I say the traitor's initials are UYJ.

She is their press agent, so she is part of the team, technically. I like the Yello Jacket idea, though.

Also, about Betty killing Hulk.. maybe it was a plan between her and Pym to find a way to get Hulk out of the prison and then they had a way of getting him out of the explosion, hence the message left for Hank Pym.

[pureclint]

I am still curious why people think the person who shot Hawkey is the traitor. Is it possible the traitor is that person or that it was? Sure. But as of now we have no evidence to proove it is. Calling him Clint means nothing, did not the Skrull in series one call the Wasp Janet and Miss V. D. while he hunted her?

*Edit

Also since when did Shield a US government Agency get control of all the European Unions Super Soldiers? I understand the joint op when taking down Thor but it seems like they now work for Fury.

[Grimm24]

Hmm, is it just me or does anyone else think its Ultimate Red Skull

Think about it, he could use a cosmic cube make him look like Cap, therefore framing him of the crime and think about it because Red Skull has always tried to ruin Cap's life so maybe this is just one of those steps

Think about it, the steps are planned out perfectly

1.Cap hated the Hulk for killing all those people in NY so that could be one cover up

2.Cap isnt a fan of Thor so another coverup

3.Getting Cap's girlfreind back with her ex-husband could be the payoff to Hank for telling him Bruce Banner's secret and Hank could have just saved Bruce Banner because he felt guilty about it and Hank isnt exactly a fan of Cap anyway so what would he care for framing Cap

4.Skull could have worked out a deal with Loki to make Thor believe that it was Cap so that he would tell Tony that

4.Maybe he could coverup Hawkeye's death by making it seem like Cap did it because he didnt want anyone interfeiring with his relationship with Jannet?

[Indigo Al]

I think Scarlet Witch is using ritual magic as a focus for her mutant probability power. We'll never know for sure because Millar doesnt seem to want to develop her further, apart from her kinky incest/robot predilections.

[Gatman]

Hmm, is it just me or does anyone else think its Ultimate Red Skull

Think about it, he could use a cosmic cube make him look like Cap, therefore framing him of the crime and think about it because Red Skull has always tried to ruin Cap's life so maybe this is just one of those steps

Think about it, the steps are planned out perfectly

1.Cap hated the Hulk for killing all those people in NY so that could be one cover up

2.Cap isnt a fan of Thor so another coverup

3.Getting Cap's girlfreind back with her ex-husband could be the payoff to Hank for telling him Bruce Banner's secret and Hank could have just saved Bruce Banner because he felt guilty about it and Hank isnt exactly a fan of Cap anyway so what would he care for framing Cap

4.Skull could have worked out a deal with Loki to make Thor believe that it was Cap so that he would tell Tony that

4.Maybe he could coverup Hawkeye's death by making it seem like Cap did it because he didnt want anyone interfeiring with his relationship with Jannet?


The equivalent of the red skull has already appeared in ultimates vol. one his name was Herr Kleiser and right now hes a pile of s#!t in shield custody. So I doubt its him.

[Rik Levins]

Ahh.

Man I do not want Clint to die. Ultimate Hawkeye is superior.

Yeah, he does kick ass. The business with the kitchen utensils was classic.

There's at least a chance he's alive. Wanda forgot her purse, so she'll be coming back, and Quicksilver probably with her. Which means, if he gets there in time, he could zip in and whisk Clint out of the path of the bullets in the nick of time.

Or maybe not. Then they'd have to come up with a contrived explanation as to why Pietro didn't have time to finish the villain, and somehow didn't see his/her face.



I am still curious why people think the person who shot Hawkey is the traitor. Is it possible the traitor is that person or that it was? Sure. But as of now we have no evidence to proove it is.

Not to prove, true, but enough to strongly suggest it. The person who is about to shoot Clint speaks to him as if s/he knows him. And expects him to be surprised at his/her identity.
It's possible that a random commando-type would say this, but it's more likely that it's the traitor him/herself. (And I'm still betting on HER self).

I like the idea of Yellow Jacket being the traitor.

It would be cool. But aside from my earlier objection (we've already got Thor talking to people who may be imaginary, seems unlikely that two people on the team would both be doing so), there's also the fact that Yellowjacket was always Hank's "Mr. Macho Tough Guy" personality, and had speech patterns like Ben Grimm. He'd be even less likely than Cap to evidence such girlish-sounding dialogue as we've heard from the traitor.

Of course, this isn't the SAME YJ, so they just might throw us a curve and have Ultimate Yellowjacket be effeminate.

Still say it's Natasha, though.

[Gatman]

As of now im starting to think the traitor is Janet like some people have already mentioned above. These are some of the reasons, remember when she was at lunch with Hank? Well she mentioned that she didn't take part in the last two missions. Which would would be the reason why she was at Hanks house instead of the middle east showing him the live coverage of what was taking place. Then she has also been getting awfully close to Hank ever since she has started to dislike cap. which would leave me to believe that was the reason for her telling Hank that she was in fact the traitor. To my last point, why would she leak the information about the hulk. Well none of the ultimates liked Banner but her and Hank got especially annoyed with Bruce working with him all those years in such a small laboratory.

[pureclint]

Not to prove, true, but enough to strongly suggest it. The person who is about to shoot Clint speaks to him as if s/he knows him. And expects him to be surprised at his/her identity.
It's possible that a random commando-type would say this, but it's more likely that it's the traitor him/herself. (And I'm still betting on HER self).



I agree fully Millar/Hitch want us to think that was the traitor. But I am not falling for that yet. Herr Kleiser did call Janet Mrs. Pym and talked to her like he knew her (its a cold thing to talk to some one personaly as you kill their family and perhaps them), and we know the people attacking know the Ultimates. Hawkeye does not react like he knew the person at the end. On the same hand I would not be surprised that it was the traitor (and I expect them to at the least be working with the Traitor) but I can not see many Ultimates characters actually doing that (Maybe Natasha is mean enough to shoot a kid in the back of the head but even that seems like a stretch).

Really it seems like the Traitor is more of a intel/spy person so far and not a hands on person.

[DarkCrisis]

And no one else finds it some what disturbing that Marvel has a mother shot in the head and a small child shot in the head and his brains spallered all over his dad in a non mature reader labeled book?

[pureclint]

I did not find it very graphic at all, the wife was killed in a zoomed out shot. And the child was killed of panel.

The theme is adult, yes but Ultimates has always been a very adult geared book. Look at the language in the Hulk rampage in season one, and the gore in the office buulding/alien invasion fight. Heck Cap roasting Thor was not really kid freindly either.

Ratings are guidlines of content but not a substitue for parenting, I would not recommend Ultimates for anyone under 15 or so.

[Indigo Al]

And no one else finds it some what disturbing that Marvel has a mother shot in the head and a small child shot in the head and his brains spallered all over his dad in a non mature reader labeled book?

Of course - but then, i abandoned the idea of the Ultimate U being for all ages waaaaaaay long ago

[KAy]

And no one else finds it some what disturbing that Marvel has a mother shot in the head and a small child shot in the head and his brains spallered all over his dad in a non mature reader labeled book?

Nope. :)

*character limit*

[Doom Hammer]

I just read the issue, and most of what I would have to say has already been said.

But man, that scene in the kitchen, with Hawkeye's application of skills...that was spectacular. I mean, honestly, I've never rooted harder for a character not to die than when I saw Hawkeye fighting back. Just great stuff. Borderline inspiring. :D

So, I'm hoping that he did not, in fact, die.

[powerforward]

i may be reeading to much into the covers, but i think the cover to issue 7 helps disprove of cap being the traitor (cap in the crosshairs).

leaning towards black widow being the traitor but that just seems to obvious.

can't be nick fury he is too prominent in other ultimate books.

jan doesn't really make sense, but we will soon see.

[Jake V]

And no one else finds it some what disturbing that Marvel has a mother shot in the head and a small child shot in the head and his brains spallered all over his dad in a non mature reader labeled book?
It says "parental advisory" on the cover. What more do you want?

[dyeyk2000]

As of now im starting to think the traitor is Janet like some people have already mentioned above. These are some of the reasons, remember when she was at lunch with Hank? Well she mentioned that she didn't take part in the last two missions. Which would would be the reason why she was at Hanks house instead of the middle east showing him the live coverage of what was taking place. Then she has also been getting awfully close to Hank ever since she has started to dislike cap. which would leave me to believe that was the reason for her telling Hank that she was in fact the traitor. To my last point, why would she leak the information about the hulk. Well none of the ultimates liked Banner but her and Hank got especially annoyed with Bruce working with him all those years in such a small laboratory.

hmm i like this theory. makes a lot of sense. of course motives are still a question mark.

i also think that ult. hawkeye hasn't kicked the bucket yet. i'm also betting on the whole quicksilver/scarlet witch rescue.

but of course, if ever hawkeye was killed? why not scarlet witch? :P nyaha!

[naruto79]

the person behind all of this is Loki. at least i think it might be. He is the prince of mischief, and it was shown that he is a shape change. (the time he was talking to Thor and changed into a snake.) it might very well be that loki changes into looking like cap america, and the next couple issues we will be led to believe that it was him (cap), till the need of the series were Thor breaks out and saves everyone.

[Brady]

With regards to the possibility that Quicksilver zooms in and saves Clint, I think its definitely possible. Quicksilver does the very same thing with Cap at the start of the issue.

[ChancellorValorumIsDarthVader]

I have a sneaking suspicon that its thor... i dont know why... maybe he is what he's says he is?

[Grimm24]

The equivalent of the red skull has already appeared in ultimates vol. one his name was Herr Kleiser and right now hes a pile of s#!t in shield custody. So I doubt its him.

I don't believe Kleiser is the ultimate form of Red Skull, more like the Ultimate form of Zemo rather than Red Skull.

I mean even Ultimate Doom still kept his Metalic trait so I highly doubt that Kleiser actully is the equivilint of Red Skull, because Red Skull is much more evil than Kleiser

[overcomebyfumes]

I don't believe Kleiser is the ultimate form of Red Skull, more like the Ultimate form of Zemo rather than Red Skull.

I mean even Ultimate Doom still kept his Metalic trait so I highly doubt that Kleiser actully is the equivilint of Red Skull, because Red Skull is much more evil than Kleiser

Kleiser wasn't the Ultimate version of anyone. Kleiser was an Ultimate Skrull.

Pax.

[Jake V]

Kleiser wasn't the Ultimate version of anyone. Kleiser was an Ultimate Skrull.

Pax.
Ultimate Nazi Super-Skrull.

[surferfan23]

I still think it's Loki making Pym(or Banner) do it. Loki's the villain in this arc, and Thor will save the day. LONG LIVE THE NORSE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Grimm24]

But, of course right after Thor saves the day he will go on a long pointless talk about how Republicans are evil and blah, blah, blah, blah yadah yadah yadah which will be followed by Cap's view and so on and more blah blah and more yahah yadah which the arc will then end with some tradic kind of end of some sort with a leason of morals in todays society

[cyclops2500]

I don't think Cap's the traitor. Firstly, it's too easy. It's so easy that people have already predicted it. Secondly, why would Cap, after beating Hank's ass in the first Ultimates series then go to his house for coffee, and Hank not seem frightened or agitated? Thirdly, why kill Hawkeye? He is the least powerful of the Ultimates, and one of the guys who is in line with Fury's agenda? I'll skip all the talk about what Cap would and wouldn't do, he's not the Cap we're used to dealing with. This Cap is a hardcore, old school, man's-man type. He beat on a guy for hitting his wife, kicked the Hulk in the groin, and put a full clip into Wolverine.

Who is it? The best way to think on it is to eliminate who it's not. It's not Hank, Thor, Banner, or Clint. They are on the 100% can't be them list. Cap and Fury are on my 90% chance they're not it list. Cap for the above stated reasons, and Fury because he simply has too much invested in the Ultimates to tear them down. This leaves Iron Man, Black Widow, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and the Wasp. My money's on Black Widow or the Wasp. The Widow gets a vote because she's only minorly featured and that leaves room for a big reveal later. Wasp gets it because she has the power to do all the stuff that's been done, and she's disgruntled with her life right now. Hank would be comfortable enough to let her back into his life without fear. It's my best guess, given that all we have to go on are a few words and a black glove.

As for Hawkeye being saved at the last moment...that would rob the whole issue of it's impact would it not?

[Doom Hammer]

Kleiser wasn't the Ultimate version of anyone. Kleiser was an Ultimate Skrull.

Pax.

Yeah, but he seemed like the equivalent to an Ultimate Red Skull. Not a straight-up interpretation, of course, but I think that he filled the role of the Skull. There's some similarities in origin that kind of point to this. The MU and the UU should have differences like this.

He was Cap's WWII archenemy, who obviously was a Nazi (kinda). He re-emerged in the modern era to plague Cap again. That follows the same basic story as, say, the Red Skull.

Little changes like that are cool, I think. Just like Vision being Galactus' herald but in a reimagined way, I think Kleiser was meant to be an unnoficial Red Skull. I always just kind of assumed.

[Gatman]

Red Skull is much more evil than Kleiser


Yeah, I dont think that you could get much more eviler than wanting to destroy the unvierse!

[Doom Hammer]

As for Hawkeye being saved at the last moment...that would rob the whole issue of it's impact would it not?

No, it would not, in my opinion. Hawkeye's whole family is dead. That's permanent, and if Hawkeye does live, it'll make for a much more interesting revenge-driven character. It's not as though the issue would lose all relevance.

In fact, I think that if Hawkeye lives, the issue would have even more impact. If Hawkeye dies, he and his family are gone. Together. There's noone there to grieve of blame themselves.

But if he lives...? Now that's an emotional story.

It's not like Mark Millar hasn't cheated like this before. He cheated on Elektra's turn to the dark side, JJJ learning Spidey's identity, Magneto and Professor X "dying" in Ultimate X-Men, and even the death of nearly all the Ultimates! (Remember issue #10? Of course, that was obvious, but you get my point). It's perfectly Millar-esque for Hawkeye to live.

Just for the record, when I say "cheat," I don't mean to imply anything negative. I'm just saying, he does things of the like fairly often.

[Gatman]

I still think it's Loki making Pym(or Banner) do it. Loki's the villain in this arc, and Thor will save the day. LONG LIVE THE NORSE GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Its defiantly not banner how and why would he want to leak the information about him being the hulk?

[ScottDMSimmons]

It's been set up earlier in the issue that Quicksilver is fast enough to save Cap from bullets. Either he or Wanda could save Hawkeye in the first part of the next issue.

As for the traitor, I think it's someone I haven't seen many people mention: Betty. It sort of follows the Jarvis theory I suppose, but given all that happened with Bruce, and think about how cold-hearted she was before Banner was Hulk, how turned on she was when he ate people (Ultimate War), and how upset she was when he told her he could never forgive her.

--Scott

[Headhunter]

As for the traitor, I think it's someone I haven't seen many people mention: Betty. It sort of follows the Jarvis theory I suppose, but given all that happened with Bruce, and think about how cold-hearted she was before Banner was Hulk, how turned on she was when he ate people (Ultimate War), and how upset she was when he told her he could never forgive her.
Sound theory; I think the reason Betty hasn't come up is because of that cloaked-in-shadow cover for #8, which doesn't look anything like Betty.

She may be cold and calculating, but hasn't been set up as any kind of a physical threat to anyone so far; if it's her, I'm interested to see how Millar plays it out.

[Nick Kal]

It's been set up earlier in the issue that Quicksilver is fast enough to save Cap from bullets. Either he or Wanda could save Hawkeye in the first part of the next issue.

As for the traitor, I think it's someone I haven't seen many people mention: Betty. It sort of follows the Jarvis theory I suppose, but given all that happened with Bruce, and think about how cold-hearted she was before Banner was Hulk, how turned on she was when he ate people (Ultimate War), and how upset she was when he told her he could never forgive her.

--Scott

I did! Hehe. Good call.

[Mister Mets]

Now at the end of the issue they show a gun trigger being pulled right? How do we know it the man who had the gun to clints head? Its made for us to assume that its the same man and gun, but it could be someone else shooting at the attacker or it could be a miss fire (caused by an unbelievable move hawkeye makes). At the end of the issue you never see Hawkeyes dead body so at this point i'm saying he is still alive!

One of the members of the Ultimates is fast enough to pull Clint out of the bullet's way. That's one possibility.

It's been set up earlier in the issue that Quicksilver is fast enough to save Cap from bullets. Either he or Wanda could save Hawkeye in the first part of the next issue.

--Scott

* Edit. Dammit, you beat me to it.

As for my guess for the traitor...Nick Fury. In Issue 6 the traitor's hand looked black, and I do believe Millar would do something that obvious.

[crystalline green]

I just read the issue. I could be totally wrong, but for some reason I get the impression that it's not the same guy firing the gun at the end of the issue. Someone else might be shooting Hawkeye's assailant. But who knows? Can wait til next issue :-)

[ChancellorValorumIsDarthVader]

I agree with the other gun theory... thought the same thing myself. But, as for the wolf in the fold.
The way the killer almost laughs at hawkeye when he says hes gonna kill him, implies that would be impossible in any situation. Which gets me thinking of a "superman" level power... I can only think of one of them...

[jcp011c]

I don't think Hawkeye is dead but will probably be in a coma for the rest of this run. Quicksilver won't be bringing the Scarlet Witch back to save him, because he's already too busy betraying the Ultimates.
Think about it - how many times in the 616 Universe did Quicksilver switch allegiences? It's so obviously pointed to Cap, Fury or Widow at this point, that the shock of the revelation will be that the identity will come out of left field.
In other words, there's no evidence to link Quicksilver, but based on how he started out in the normal universe, there would be plenty of parallels.

[lazykarateguy]

I like to believe Hawkeye might still be alive, I liked the character (In Ultimate War when that chick asks him "if he's that good" while he takes aim at Rogue using Toads power to escape the Ultimates and just fires away, and looks back "and then some" was just about my favorite moment in the series)

Also Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch MIGHT make the save, and I really hope they do. For some reason I can see Quicksilver getting pissed off at a dead child and going nuts.

Secondly, I believe what we might be getting here is Ultimate USAgent, perhaps Hanks split personality this time isn't Yellowjacket but based on his hate for Captain America. In attempt to get Jan back he goes nuts and starts to act more like Cap because he thinks thats what she wants.

[Private America]

I was shocked that it shows a small child getting shot and killed in this book. There isn't even a "Mature Reader" label on the front. I found it very very disgusting to show.

I'm all for violence but I thought that was stepping over the line in this case.

The killings do take this book to a whole new level of darkness, especially since they seem so random and unconnected to anything else in the book.

[Tobias March]

I wouldn't agree that they are random or unconnected as characters are repeatedly told that the Ultimates current course of action will bear a retaliatory response. They are being misled by a 'wolf in the fold', and furthermore executed or maligned one by one.

Draw your own conclusions.

[BoosterBronze]

I think the most disturbing aspect of the book was Janet and Hank having their little date. I mean, I know battered woman often (depressingly) return to the men who hurt them, but to see that happen in the wish-fullfilment superhero genre was creepy. (Kudo to Millar for screwing with my world)

[Jomero]

Janet always came back to Pym, according to Betty. Him beating her in #6 was not the first time it's happened. It was just the first time we as readers saw it. I'd like to believe Pym has changed, but who knows.

As for Janet being the traitor, I'm 50/50 on that one. Do I believe she could have sold Bruce out? Yes. Easily. Why? Because at the start of this series, she was shown as a Media Whore. She couldn't get enough of prostituting herself out to talk shows and the media in general. She could have easily been seduced and let that info slip.

But do I see her as a person who could murder Hank's wife and kids in cold blood? No.

[Dussan]

I think the most disturbing aspect of the book was Janet and Hank having their little date. I mean, I know battered woman often (depressingly) return to the men who hurt them, but to see that happen in the wish-fullfilment superhero genre was creepy. (Kudo to Millar for screwing with my world)

I think this is the biggest reason The Ultimates work so well.

You see the Avengers as these cardboard heroes, with some problems, but in the end you know the world is a world of heroes and villains, and they are all heroes.

Ultimates, it's like a slap in the face with cold water. You sit there and go, "it can happen, but DAMN, it's happening to the Avengers?!"

I just don't know what to expect next.

[nickfury187]

I personally think the traitor is Cap. I thought it long ago because that would be that crazy twist that millar would throw in. And not just that, look at the cover of issue 7. The title says "wolf in the fold", And out of everyone, Cap has this big ass target around him. Now is it that obvious??? Who knows. I think so.

[cowboyfunk]

maybe it's too obvious, but remember the end of issue six?

valkyrie wants hank to dress up as cap.

cap's outfit ends up on the bed in hank's room.

jan lives with cap and likes his man parts.

jan could have easily dropped off the costume before discussing her devious deeds over coffee.

[StoneGold]

maybe it's too obvious, but remember the end of issue six?

valkyrie wants hank to dress up as cap.

cap's outfit ends up on the bed in hank's room.

jan lives with cap and likes his man parts.

jan could have easily dropped off the costume before discussing her devious deeds over coffee.
Yeah, except if you look close, it's not really Cap's costume. No stars on the sleeves for one. It's a costume store knockoff.

[Ruthless_Pryde]

As of now im starting to think the traitor is Janet like some people have already mentioned above. These are some of the reasons, remember when she was at lunch with Hank? Well she mentioned that she didn't take part in the last two missions. Which would would be the reason why she was at Hanks house instead of the middle east showing him the live coverage of what was taking place. Then she has also been getting awfully close to Hank ever since she has started to dislike cap. which would leave me to believe that was the reason for her telling Hank that she was in fact the traitor. To my last point, why would she leak the information about the hulk. Well none of the ultimates liked Banner but her and Hank got especially annoyed with Bruce working with him all those years in such a small laboratory.


DUDE! YOU ARE SOOOOO RIGHT!!! Think about this, the guys that were watching her and Hank in the car, weren't watching her and hank, they were watching her. The next issue with Cap in the crosshair, could be the next target, she has been complaining about their realtionship for some time now.
When the traitor was talking to hank in the issue before this one, it was like they had a familar realtionship. I couldn't be Cap b/c I judt don't see Pym sitting down having a drink with the man whose banging his (ex)wife. I know I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Anyway, she has been retty scarce fopr the last few issues and this might explain it. I don't think that she is directly responsible for her actions, Loki has something to do with this, what, I don't know just yet, but I know that he has something to do with what is going on.

[nickfury187]

But remember, If Loki can manipulate time and space like Thor says then Jan not being on the missions has nothing to do with it.

[Dussan]

But remember, If Loki can manipulate time and space like Thor says then Jan not being on the missions has nothing to do with it.

Assuming Loki is real.

[Coqui]

The traitor is Black Widow, its pretty obvious. She was a badguy in the original marvel universe.

[EvilVey]

The Gloves: We can safely assume that both Hawkeye (the 'Big Surprise?' comment) and Hank (who is in the next room over from The Traitor in #6) know who The Traitor is. So why is the traitor wearing gloves in the first place? What is there to hide? 3 possibilities - long painted fingernails (Betty, Wasp, Black Widow), dark skin (Nick Fury),or neural implants (Tony Stark's neural implants that he has all over his body that help him run the Iron Man suit).

The 'Big Surprise' Comment: It's meant to be sarcastic. Captain America would be a big surprise to Hawkeye, as would Fury and Jan. Black Widow, however is both a highly trained and enhanced professional covert operations agent. A spy. Even her name is synonimous with someone who kills her partner.

Balance of Power: Who was the first to go down? The Hulk, the physically most powerful member of the team (nuke couldn't take him out - and yes, Pym intentionally underdosed him). Who went next? Thor...two biggies going down in order of strength. Who is the most powerful member of the team now?

Iron Man...

...and Black Widow, who now has a suit based off of Iron Man technology. The last series she had 'a million dollars worth of enhancements' but she was still only human. Now she's on the same level as (or close to) that of Iron Man. She played Tony Stark as a fool to get her hands on the suit.

Anyone else wonder "Why did Millar go and give her a suit when her character could do so much before?" He did it to further the story and set-up what is most likely to be an exceptional showdown between Tony Stark and the woman he loved (when he sobers up after the traitor is revealed to be his fiance).

Millar's Own Iron Man Comments: Millar has said in the past that this run of The Ultimates would have a greater focus on Iron Man as far as character development. What better way to develop character than getting dumped by the woman you love and have her betray they team (almost killing one - yes, Hawkeye lives, thank you Quicksilver for running back to get your sister's purse).

The Frame Up: Black Widow frames Captain America, so that they have Iron Man's strength, but without the Captain's strength and moral clarity (I can't believe some of you would think Captain America would kill kids...shame on you all!). Without Captain America around, it gives Black Widow the opportuntiy to play Tony Stark like a piano. Have a drink, Tony...

The Break-Out: Where do you lock-up Captain America? Same place you lock up The Hulk and Thor...The Triskelion. In a brilliant piece of writing (and irony), Captain America either busts out of his cell (or is let out by Nick or Jan) and the first thing he does is...release Thor. The reason he's doing this is because somewhere in the storyline, the war to end all wars that Thor speaks of actually starts to happen. It hits the fan, Iron Man is probably busy duking it out with Black Widow, and it's up to Jan, Nick, the Captain and Jan Pyn to save the world (Jan was complaining about not being in the last 2 missions and now she has more action than she can handle!)

Is Thor a God?: Never settled, but many will be left with the perception he is. (I am, however, hoping he is.)

Thor's Observations: Millar is an excellent write and an excellent writer doesn't waste words or moments. The meeting between Thor and Tony was not filler; it was crucial. "Supposing China is a threat..." Thor says...

...or Russia?

Congratulations, we have our motive. The old Soviet bloc countries still have their stockpiles of nuclear weapons. It would also explain the 'This isn't a nation I believe in anymore.' comment. I can't see any other character making this comment, because, other than Captain America, no one addresses the issue of patriotism. A defector would have to wrestle with this topic.

Black Widow is going back to the other side. She's going to try to take Iron Man technology with her.

[pureclint]

I still do not think the "big surprise" comment had anything to do with it being the traitor as the trigger man/woman. I think it was more along the lines of "Your family is dead and your next, are you surprised after what you have been up to?".

IF it was the traitor pulling the trigger, the only team member ruthless enough is Widow, unless Hank has really gone off the deep end.

[Kirk G]

I still do not think the "big surprise" comment had anything to do with it being the traitor as the trigger man/woman. I think it was more along the lines of "Your family is dead and your next, are you surprised after what you have been up to?".

IF it was the traitor pulling the trigger, the only team member ruthless enough is Widow, unless Hank has really gone off the deep end.

Sooooooo, you think the traitor is Hawkeye, and this is just Fury's team coming in after him and taking out his family along the way... right???

[Rik Levins]

Excellent analysis, EvilVey. I agree on every point. I'll also reitierate my earlier prediction, that for some contrived reason the belt and hammer will ONLY work for Thorlief. And we'll still never know for sure if he's a god or a nutcase. It just won't matter.

I agree fully Millar/Hitch want us to think that was the traitor. But I am not falling for that yet. Herr Kleiser did call Janet Mrs. Pym and talked to her like he knew her...

But Kleiser DIDN'T call her "Jan". Just "Mrs. Pym" (and once "Doctor Pym".)

The killer in this case called Hawkeye "Clint". That implies a level of intimacy well beyond an enemy who has simply familiarized him/herself with the target.
We can't really tell anything from Hawkeye's reaction to seeing the killer's face. In one panel he's looking down at the boy, in the next he's screaming "I'll kill you for this".

And then he/she calls Clint "soldier." Weren't Hawkeye and Natasha partners in a special ops team before being recruited into the Ultimates?

I have to wonder whether Hank Pym knows just how far the traitor is willing to go. I can see him not caring much about what was done to Thor, and I'm sure he'd be delighted to see Cap framed, disgraced and locked up. But I DON'T see him gong along with murdering women and children.

[nuclearman]

It really was a powerful finish to the issue. I can't remember the last time I was really shocked in a comic, but to see Hawkeye and family get wiped out in the last pages left me angry. Hawkeye really can not take a trick.

I really, really want to see Thor escape and kill some bad guys!!!!

At this stage I'd be inclined to think Natasha is the spy. Good post Evilvey!

[KAy]

The Gloves:[Black Widow is going back to the other side. She's going to try to take Iron Man technology with her.

You have some great points, man, cheers!

[Christopher O]

I really, really want to see Thor escape and kill some bad guys!!!!
Not me. That would be completely be out of character for Thor, unless he really is bananas. Either way, I'd prefer that he not kill. This version of the character is infinitely more interesting than his counterpart. I'd hate to see the character marred.

[pureclint]

Sooooooo, you think the traitor is Hawkeye, and this is just Fury's team coming in after him and taking out his family along the way... right???


Nope, I think Hawk is one of the good guys. I do think it is very possible that the people attacking Hawkeye and killing his family are the enemies Thor talked about, ie the people mad that the Ultimates would dare disarm a implied rogue state of nuclear weapons.



But Kleiser DIDN'T call her "Jan". Just "Mrs. Pym" (and once "Doctor Pym".)

The killer in this case called Hawkeye "Clint". That implies a level of intimacy well beyond an enemy who has simply familiarized him/herself with the target.
We can't really tell anything from Hawkeye's reaction to seeing the killer's face. In one panel he's looking down at the boy, in the next he's screaming "I'll kill you for this".

And then he/she calls Clint "soldier." Weren't Hawkeye and Natasha partners in a special ops team before being recruited into the Ultimates?

I have to wonder whether Hank Pym knows just how far the traitor is willing to go. I can see him not caring much about what was done to Thor, and I'm sure he'd be delighted to see Cap framed, disgraced and locked up. But I DON'T see him gong along with murdering women and children.


See it could be intimate is could not be, remember all the Ultimates info was released to the public by the traitor early on. And I am sure the people out to get them are going to go in with a full intel docket. It is possible it is just a cold/sadistic way of talking to him, and Hawkeye is a soldier. He even mentions it again in this issue, when talking about the coffee.

Now I have also said all along it is possible the traitor was the trigger man, but everyone is talking about it as if it is fact. It is not as of yet. I still hold the possibility Millar is trying to make people think it was. Yet, if it turns out to be the traitor then the list narrows down to Natasha in my mind. As I mentioned in my last post.

[pureclint]

Not me. That would be completely be out of character for Thor, unless he really is bananas. Either way, I'd prefer that he not kill. This version of the character is infinitely more interesting than his counterpart. I'd hate to see the character marred.


Umm didnt he kill a few hundred Skrulls? And he was not very Heroic when he bribed the US to help against the Hulk.

[venuscameback]

I also feel he dialed back some of his views that were seaping in which is a good thing. He showed better balance

i haven't read the issue yet but I so hope you're right ... I'm so tired of the pro-war & aggression agenda Millar pushes in Ultimates, and critics like Thor being written as nut-jobs who lack credibility


venus

[Sabrinaset]

Thor's Observations:[/B] Millar is an excellent write and an excellent writer doesn't waste words or moments. The meeting between Thor and Tony was not filler; it was crucial. "Supposing China is a threat..." Thor says...


Black Widow is going back to the other side. She's going to try to take Iron Man technology with her.

The Traitor is obviously Ultimate Jarvis!

Okay, okay ...:)

Maaaaan hehe I was thinking the same thing as EvilVey. The only bit of info I have to share with everyone is what I remember reading during the first run on the Ultimates. Millar had said that Iron man was scheduled to crash into China somewhere around issue five or so, and then the Chinese were going to get their hands on the Iron Tech and make their own army of Iron Men. I kept waiting for that to happen, and it never did. Perhaps he was waiting until now.

[Brian888]

*CLIP brilliant analysis*


I think this is 100% right. Great job!

Some further thoughts:

1.) The Avengers, classically, have always revolved around Cap, Iron Man and Thor. They're sort of the iconic Avengers. I've yet to see any of the Ultimates lines stray TOO far afield from their 616 counterparts, and making one of those three the bad guy would really be diverging from 616.

2.) If Natasha is indeed the traitor, it puts a whole new spin on her early failed attempts to seduce Thor. That didn't work, so she moved on to Tony.

3.) I love your idea of Cap being framed and put in the Triskelion along with Thor. Nothing better than a prison break to bridge the pretty big gap between those two that exists right now.

[1961]

All very interseting but I'm going with Loki, I don't think that Thors delusional at all, Millar's playing 'the long game' here and this is a mystery that wont be solved in two issues. I also think that the cover for #8 is a fake along the lines of the fake Phoenix splash page in 'astonishing X-Men.
Anyway that's my two pennyworth :p


Have you ever tried to imagine a world with no hyperthetical situations?

[1961]

All very interseting but I'm going with Loki, I don't think that Thors delusional at all, Millar's playing 'the long game' here and this is a mystery that wont be solved in two issues. I also think that the cover for #8 is a fake along the lines of the fake Phoenix splash page in 'astonishing X-Men.
Anyway that's my two pennyworth :p


Have you ever tried to imagine a world with no hyperthetical situations?

[venuscameback]

I think this is 100% right. Great job!

Some further thoughts:

1.) The Avengers, classically, have always revolved around Cap, Iron Man and Thor. They're sort of the iconic Avengers. I've yet to see any of the Ultimates lines stray TOO far afield from their 616 counterparts, and making one of those three the bad guy would really be diverging from 616.

2.) If Natasha is indeed the traitor, it puts a whole new spin on her early failed attempts to seduce Thor. That didn't work, so she moved on to Tony.

3.) I love your idea of Cap being framed and put in the Triskelion along with Thor. Nothing better than a prison break to bridge the pretty big gap between those two that exists right now.


oooh I'm liking this idea ... it works to me, plus ... well, does anyone think Natasha & Tony would get married anyway? I'm expecting something to rain on their parade so why not Natasha defects/always was a spy/double-spy?

I'd rather it be Cap though - disillusioned with modern society he betrays the team in the hope of establishing an ultra-right wing extremist team of anti-heroes.


venus

[Headhunter]

If Natasha is indeed the traitor, it puts a whole new spin on her early failed attempts to seduce Thor. That didn't work, so she moved on to Tony.
It would make sense, especially if she was part of a Russian superteam initiative. Maybe Loki is actually running the European team in alliance with the Russians to take out the Americans?

I think Thor's perfectly sane, and this would be a strong way to show it. That said, it would also be an interesting direction to keep the Ultimates doubting Thor for a long time, and having them turn to him as a last-ditch option for a climactic battle ahead.

[Dussan]

Umm didnt he kill a few hundred Skrulls? And he was not very Heroic when he bribed the US to help against the Hulk.

He didn't bribe the US. His goal is to make the world a better place. How will he do that by cleaning up the messes that the US government makes?

I think this Thor is very heroic. When the Ultimates came to take him down, he tried to reason with them and explain his side of things.

I love how they played his godhood as being part of his delusions.

[StoneGold]

Umm didnt he kill a few hundred Skrulls? And he was not very Heroic when he bribed the US to help against the Hulk.
Two quick things. Depending on how you want to look at it, he didn't kill the Skrulls. He just let their own weapon detonate next to them in a place where it couldn't hurt anyone else. The Skrulls were the ones using the fatal force, he just redirected it.

Two, he didn't bribe the US, he was bribed by the US. Now, you could say he blackmailed the government, but that's not really true either. Blackmail is about not releasing information in exchange for something, not about withholding services until conditions are met.

[Dussan]

This Thor is every bit as heroic as the MU one.

[Brian888]

It would make sense, especially if she was part of a Russian superteam initiative. Maybe Loki is actually running the European team in alliance with the Russians to take out the Americans?

I think Thor's perfectly sane, and this would be a strong way to show it. That said, it would also be an interesting direction to keep the Ultimates doubting Thor for a long time, and having them turn to him as a last-ditch option for a climactic battle ahead.


And then you'd have the various European Captains, the Giant Men, and people in stolen Iron Man armor vs. Cap, Thor, Tony, and maybe Janet, Pietro and Wanda.

Hot damn, that sounds awesome!

[nuclearman]

Not me. That would be completely be out of character for Thor, unless he really is bananas. Either way, I'd prefer that he not kill. This version of the character is infinitely more interesting than his counterpart. I'd hate to see the character marred.

I don't think the Ultimate Thor's heroic traits will be tainted if he shows a little godful vengence in battle with murdering slime.

I agree Ultimate Thor is probably more interesting than MU Thor, not that I don't want MU Thor back because I do!!

[Gatman]

I don't think the Ultimate Thor's heroic traits will be tainted if he shows a little godful vengence in battle with murdering slime.

I agree Ultimate Thor is probably more interesting than MU Thor, not that I don't want MU Thor back because I do!!

The thing is though that thor is a hippie who believes in peace so for him to kill anyone would be really out of character. (It would kinda be like batman killing someone).

I also find ultimate thor more interesting than his MU counterpart.

[lonewolf23k]

He didn't bribe the US. His goal is to make the world a better place. How will he do that by cleaning up the messes that the US government makes?

In spite of all that talk of heroics and wanting to help the little people, he wouldn't have lifted a finger to stop Hulk's rampage through New York until the US government agreed to increase their foreign aid.

So, apparantly, the innocent bystanders in New York city don't matter all that much to Thor. Oh yeah, a real Hero, that guy...

I think this Thor is very heroic. When the Ultimates came to take him down, he tried to reason with them and explain his side of things.

You know, if he was that honorable and heroic, he could've just surrendered the hammer and belt and turned himself in peacefully.. Then he could've made SURE no innocent bystanders would get hurt.

[Gatman]

Is Thor a God?: Never settled, but many will be left with the perception he is. (I am, however, hoping he is.)


I'm not saying that you are wrong because thor could be a god, but if you were thor wouldn't it make sense to use your powers once the ultimates take your belt from you to prove infact that you could be a god?

[nickfury187]

I'm not saying that you are wrong because thor could be a god, but if you were thor wouldn't it make sense to use your powers once the ultimates take your belt from you to prove infact that you could be a god?


But according to norse mythology his belt increases his power. So he might be able to do only so much, if anything at all.

[pureclint]

Two quick things. Depending on how you want to look at it, he didn't kill the Skrulls. He just let their own weapon detonate next to them in a place where it couldn't hurt anyone else. The Skrulls were the ones using the fatal force, he just redirected it.

Two, he didn't bribe the US, he was bribed by the US. Now, you could say he blackmailed the government, but that's not really true either. Blackmail is about not releasing information in exchange for something, not about withholding services until conditions are met.


So it was not Thor tossing lighting bolts around killing Skrulls and getting into a Warriors frenzy?

I never said it was a bad thing what he did I was commenting on the post that said he would not want Thor to kill as it would marr him.

Blackmail also can be defined as a tribute paid for protection (of course that was scottish) but whatever you want to call it, bribe was a bit off I agree, it was not very Heroic to save people for money.

[nickfury187]

I'm not saying that you are wrong because thor could be a god, but if you were thor wouldn't it make sense to use your powers once the ultimates take your belt from you to prove infact that you could be a god?


But according to norse mythology his belt increases his power. So he might be able to do only so much, if anything at all.

[nickfury187]

But according to norse mythology his belt increases his power. So he might be able to do only so much, if anything at all.

oops. posted twice

[pureclint]

But according to norse mythology his belt increases his power. So he might be able to do only so much, if anything at all.


Actually this brings up a intersting question, if he ends up basing him more and more on th Norse myths, HOW THE EFF did he go from a Viking God to what he is today? That would almsot be like Zues becoming gay or at least being faithful to Hera.

[Christopher O]

That would almsot be like Zues becoming gay or at least being faithful to Hera.
Zeus was gay--well, bisexual, anyway.

[pureclint]

Zeus was gay--well, bisexual, anyway.

Yeah there was Zeus's love for the young lad Ganymede, but he is known for his adultry with woman. Zues stopping hsi sexual encounters with woman and becoming gay (not bi) is about as far fetched as him having no extra marital affairs. But thats not the point the point is exactly hwo would a Viking God prayed to before going of to plunder villages etc change who he is so much to become Thor in the book?

[StoneGold]

(of course that was scottish) but whatever you want to call it, bribe was a bit off I agree, it was not very Heroic to save people for money.
You're right... except Thor didn't do it for money. He did it so other people could get money. You make it sound like Thor got paid. He held up the feds for... damn, I can't remember if it was charity or debt relief. One of the two. Not quite the same thing as Thor doing it for money.

[pureclint]

You're right... except Thor didn't do it for money. He did it so other people could get money. You make it sound like Thor got paid. He held up the feds for... damn, I can't remember if it was charity or debt relief. One of the two. Not quite the same thing as Thor doing it for money.


I think they just said foreign aid, but I am not 100% sure. And you are right the distinction does need to be made that he did not benifit form the cash (except perhaps in some peoples perception of him), but he still saved people for money.

Personally I think it is a bit more Heroic to jump in and save people with out expecting/demanding some for of compensasion or playing politics.

And again I want to reiterate for some people who might take this all the wrong way, I think Thor is a good guy. I totally disagree with some of the things he spews and I disagree with some of his actions (like the above mentioned and how he handled the police in Italy) but it has been shown he tries to be a good person.

[The Fury]

I'm late to this comic but still, brilliant comic and i'm shocked at what happened to Hawkeye and his family (I thought the 'Wolf' may have been him as he may have been concerned about his family).

[Frank]

Three things

First I remember Loki talking about some big dangerous alliance. So there could be more than one traitor, or alliance of people that hates the Ultimates. Meaning:

-those that do it for the mutant cause: Wanda & Pietro
-politics: Natasha
-just evil vengeful doppleganger: Ultron (sharing Pym`s hatred/wants to Avenge his father)
-Mastermind, who use the whole situation to rule World: Loki
-others interests: former Nazis, aliens, etc...

So we could see a huge smackdown at the end between these guys and The Ultimates. Then The Ultmates wins and everybody loves them...only to learn at the last page of the last issue that the whole thing(with the traitors) was created with by Nick Fury to restore the Ultimates name. And that some guys were not even killed to begin with. But the real goal? Fury getting founding for his own super-powered army. What`s the point? To be prepared for the coming of Ultimate Galactus.
-------------------------------

Secondlywhat if the person killing Hawkeye is not the traitor but it`s maybe Fury or Natasha slaughtering Clint out of an old CIA way of cleaning things up with rogue agents when they are problems? Meaning Fury(with Natasha) killed Hawkeye and family thinking he was the traitor and are doing that to all the Ultimates members who they are suspiscious about? It would be interesting if Fury would have done all those things to Hulk(sending the message to the press), Thor, Clint because he knows for sure somebody`s gonna do arm to America and he`s sure it`s an Ultimate but doesn`t know who?
---------------------------

ThirdlyIt would be interesting if in the end everybody thinks everybody is a traitor, then realising that EVERYBODY is indeed a traitor and in typical Millar fashion there`s this huge internal fight Ultimates vs Ultimates with all the members beating the crap out of one another `till there`s only one left alive? The series ends like that.

[RedD]

The scene when quicksilver snatched Captain America away from the nuclear facility and got him out of there before the explosion. Quicksilver could not carry him the entire distance to the designated way point, due to the fact that Cap was weighing him down with an unexpected amount of weight.

Maybe I am reading to much into that, but it seems like that was an almost planted scene or forshadowing. Why would Captain America weigh so much? Why would Millar feed us that little scene? Maybe the Captain America that has been on this team is not the real Captain America. Maybe we have an imposter pretending to be him.. Maybe Captain America is Loki?

[Frank]

The scene when quicksilver snatched Captain America away from the nuclear facility and got him out of there before the explosion. Quicksilver could not carry him the entire distance to the designated way point, due to the fact that Cap was weighing him down with an unexpected amount of weight.

Maybe I am reading to much into that, but it seems like that was an almost planted scene or forshadowing. Why would Captain America weigh so much? Why would Millar feed us that little scene? Maybe the Captain America that has been on this team is not the real Captain America. Maybe we have an imposter pretending to be him.. Maybe Captain America is Loki?

Maybe he`s John Walker

[Broblawsky0]

The scene when quicksilver snatched Captain America away from the nuclear facility and got him out of there before the explosion. Quicksilver could not carry him the entire distance to the designated way point, due to the fact that Cap was weighing him down with an unexpected amount of weight.

Maybe I am reading to much into that, but it seems like that was an almost planted scene or forshadowing. Why would Captain America weigh so much? Why would Millar feed us that little scene? Maybe the Captain America that has been on this team is not the real Captain America. Maybe we have an imposter pretending to be him.. Maybe Captain America is Loki? Don't Asgardians (at least in 616) have super-dense bodies?

[Sion]

The scene when quicksilver snatched Captain America away from the nuclear facility and got him out of there before the explosion. Quicksilver could not carry him the entire distance to the designated way point, due to the fact that Cap was weighing him down with an unexpected amount of weight.

Maybe I am reading to much into that, but it seems like that was an almost planted scene or forshadowing. Why would Captain America weigh so much? Why would Millar feed us that little scene? Maybe the Captain America that has been on this team is not the real Captain America. Maybe we have an imposter pretending to be him.. Maybe Captain America is Loki?

...Are you calling Loki fat?

[RedD]

Funny..

All I am saying is that it seemed like there was great effort to put that little scene in there. Was it just a quirky little moment, or was it a clue.

[bloodyarts]

The scene when quicksilver snatched Captain America away from the nuclear facility and got him out of there before the explosion. Quicksilver could not carry him the entire distance to the designated way point, due to the fact that Cap was weighing him down with an unexpected amount of weight.

Maybe I am reading to much into that, but it seems like that was an almost planted scene or forshadowing. Why would Captain America weigh so much? Why would Millar feed us that little scene? Maybe the Captain America that has been on this team is not the real Captain America. Maybe we have an imposter pretending to be him.. Maybe Captain America is Loki?

Y'know, I wondered about that scene, too. You'd figure Nick and Quicksilver know how much he can (Pietro) can handle, but Pietro complained "... the guy must weigh three hundred fifty pounds". I know Cap is buff and all, but 350lbs. sounds a bit heavy even for him.

Nick tells QS to relax as he's far enough away from the danger zone, and with that comment, the reader (read: me), too, relaxes, and thus, misses the importance of the scene, carefully misguided and misdirected by Millar so we (I) wouldn't catch on to the surprise.

You and Broblawsky0 may be on to something...

If Captain America is Loki, then the whole "CAP KILLED HAWKEYE!" makes total sense.

[DocSamson]

Sorry if some of this is redundant but I confess I havnt read the whole thread...
The theory of Loki disguised as Cap makes an awful lot of sense to me. It ties into the shock of Cap being the traitor, while also reinforcing Loki's lying nature. Not to mention the fact that I still believe its Lokis fault that Thor is in jail in the first place. So if Loki really is a Norse god, then Thor must be also....which begs the question...why doesnt he bust out of Shield custody?

I think Millar already has some kind of deviously clever way that Thor will free himself while maintaining the ambiguity of his godliness (or lack thereof).

Having said all that, I cant help entertaining a couple of wildcards:
Traitor=Black Widow....like someone said before, she is a villain in the 616verse...does she really belong in the Ultimates anyway? Plus, i dont see Tony Stark getting married in ANY universe.
Ultimate Red Skull...part of me wants to see this happen just for the fanboy coolness factor...although I think its unlikely....

I guess my theory is that there is NO Traitor...Loki, in the guise of Mark Millar, has manipulated us all....

[RedD]

Loki is suppose to be the Norse god of lies and deception, so this would all qualify as a big deception. If this theory is correct the coolest thing to happen would be at the end of the next issue the real Captain America is truely found. We find out that Loki has been working his deception from issue #1.

[Frank]

Sorry if some of this is redundant but I confess I havnt read the whole thread...
The theory of Loki disguised as Cap makes an awful lot of sense to me. It ties into the shock of Cap being the traitor, while also reinforcing Loki's lying nature. Not to mention the fact that I still believe its Lokis fault that Thor is in jail in the first place. So if Loki really is a Norse god, then Thor must be also....which begs the question...why doesnt he bust out of Shield custody?

I think Millar already has some kind of deviously clever way that Thor will free himself while maintaining the ambiguity of his godliness (or lack thereof).

Having said all that, I cant help entertaining a couple of wildcards:
Traitor=Black Widow....like someone said before, she is a villain in the 616verse...does she really belong in the Ultimates anyway? Plus, i dont see Tony Stark getting married in ANY universe.
Ultimate Red Skull...part of me wants to see this happen just for the fanboy coolness factor...although I think its unlikely....

I guess my theory is that there is NO Traitor...Loki, in the guise of Mark Millar, has manipulated us all....

it`s not gonna be a typical super-villain(other than the involvement of Loki).

[wet wookie]

Just thought I'd point out that Hawkeye's not dead. Remember who forgot their purse at Hawkeye's house: Wanda.

Quicksilver's on his way back to pick up the purse. He'll be able to rescue Clint, and stop Cap (the assassin judging by the cover of the next issue). I'm willing to bet Cap's been through some type of brainwashing by the government when he got his powers. (You wouldn't want an independently thinking super soldier now would you?)

The traitor is Betty. Remember the scene in the helicopter when they were leaving Bruce to be nuked? She was there with Nick and Hank. Hank was responsible for doping up Bruce, so they were in it together: Betty frames Banner, then Hank frees him. It's all so clear to me now!

[Nick Kal]

Just thought I'd point out that Hawkeye's not dead. Remember who forgot their purse at Hawkeye's house: Wanda.

Quicksilver's on his way back to pick up the purse. He'll be able to rescue Clint, and stop Cap (the assassin judging by the cover of the next issue). I'm willing to bet Cap's been through some type of brainwashing by the government when he got his powers. (You wouldn't want an independently thinking super soldier now would you?)

The traitor is Betty. Remember the scene in the helicopter when they were leaving Bruce to be nuked? She was there with Nick and Hank. Hank was responsible for doping up Bruce, so they were in it together: Betty frames Banner, then Hank frees him. It's all so clear to me now!

I said that long ago! :p

[WolverinesSon]

All very accurate information about todays issue except for the major part in the book that you say Hawkeye died I refuse to believe this and I have to theories that explain why. I'll start with my weak theory which I don't think will happen which is Hawkeye has one last thing up his sleeve to kill the man with the gun to his head. The one that I think will happen in issue 8 is, well you know who wanda left her purse at clints house. Well I think that her and maybe Quicksilver come back to get it. Then see the men with the weapons charge into the house and see them kill his wife. So they go back to the house to save Clint and his children but are to late for callum but just in time to save clint.(hopefully one of those scenarios are true!)

I'm hopin that's what happened also. We'll see.

[wet wookie]

I said that long ago! :p
You made all the same guesses as I did?

[Crash-Man]

Here's a question everybody should be asking themselves. Hawkeye is murdered, along with his wife and kids.

Why? Who benefits?

...

Anyone have an alternate theory?


Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I do.

I think that the traitor organised the murders to make it look like a group of terrorists from the unnamed Middle Eastern country retaliating against the Ultimates.

Why Hawkeye? Probably because he'd be the easiest to take down, and along with his family, he'd make the most tragic target.

Why frame the Middle Eastern country? To create even more tension and to help "justify" the country's/team's actions in that region, thus escalating the conflict.

Thor told Stark that they would retaliate soon. Finally, whoever the traitor is, I believe he's working with Loki, if not Loki himself disguised as a team member...since the very beginning.


Either way, it's all very interesting.

[Nick Kal]

You made all the same guesses as I did?

Betty.. I said her.

[Tommy]

I think it is not Loki (or at least the Traitor isn't) Loki said spacificaly that he was not involved with the traitor's activity. Since he is the god of lies everyone would expect him to be lying about that, but the twist would be since no one would belive him he could tell the truth and misslead every one.

[pushav]

I have really enjoyed this book. I cant wait to pick up the next issue. I was thinking that it was Fury that is the traitor due to the colorist cloroing of the traitor's wrist in issue 6 (they had medium to darkish skin color when they was fixing the cofee).
I am thinking a sleeper agent or somthing.
Maybe some one like US Agent Lol.
Or maybe hawkeye is still alive. Millar left us with a nice cliffahnger. Just about every issue is a cliffhanger. Lol

Maybe it was tony.

I need the next issue!!!
It comes out this wednesday. I must get some pennies ready.

[trofski]

I think that hawkeye will be alive, only they will us