Crisis On Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition

[Buried Alien]

At the DC Comics panel on Saturday at the San Diego Comic Con, one of the products that Dan Didio announced for later this year was ABSOLUTE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS...presumably yet another compilation of the landmark 1985 maxiseries. What Dan didn't tell us, however, was how this latest compilation would differ from the 1999 hardcover and its 2000 trade paperback counterpart. Those two compilations already had remastered coloring, etc. Dan vaguely mentioned that this reprint was somehow connected to INFINITE CRISIS. Any guesses?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[hitokiri_]

At the DC Comics panel on Saturday at the San Diego Comic Con, one of the products that Dan Didio announced for later this year was ABSOLUTE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS...presumably yet another compilation of the landmark 1985 maxiseries. What Dan didn't tell us, however, was how this latest compilation would differ from the 1999 hardcover and its 2000 trade paperback counterpart. Those two compilations already had remastered coloring, etc. Dan vaguely mentioned that this reprint was somehow connected to INFINITE CRISIS. Any guesses?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


yeah and it's a hundred bucks.

[Expletive Deleted]

At the DC Comics panel on Saturday at the San Diego Comic Con, one of the products that Dan Didio announced for later this year was ABSOLUTE CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS...presumably yet another compilation of the landmark 1985 maxiseries.It was solicited last month.

----

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/previews/dc/0905/CrisisOnInfiniteEarthsAbsolute.jpg

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS: THE ABSOLUTE EDITION HC
Written by Marv Wolfman
Art by George Pérez, Dick Giordano, Jerry Ordway and Mike DeCarlo
Cover by Pérez

Worlds lived. Worlds died. And the DC Universe was never the same! In 1985, DC Comics dramatically altered comics’ original universe with Crisis On Infinite Earths,
a 12-issue series that rocked the comics community, tragically dooming some of DC’s most beloved characters and drastically altering others. Written by Marv Wolfman and pencilled by George Pérez, with inks by Dick Giordano, Jerry Ordway and Mike DeCarlo, Crisis On Infinite Earths finds the alternate worlds that once were a hallmark of the DC Universe under siege by a mysterious force powerful enough to wipe out the lives of billions.

Now this landmark series gets the star treatment in Crisis On Infinite Earths: The Absolute Edition — an oversized slipcased set containing two hardcover books. The 368-page Book One includes the full 12-issue maxiseries (which was painstakingly restored and meticulously recolored in 1998), with an introduction by Marv Wolfman, afterword by Dick Giordano, and creator bios. George Pérez provides all-new art for the dustjacket. (Please note that the Monitor Tapes section from issue #10 will be shot from the original art for this issue and represented in its original form.)

The 96-page Book Two contains a compendium featuring the full behind-the-scenes story on the years-long making of the maxiseries complete with memos, notes, original plots and commentary from Marv Wolfman and Jerry Ordway; the Official Index to Crisis and Official Index to Crisis Crossovers being reprinted for the very first time, completely updated; a look into post-Crisis events and aftermath stories, how the Superboy/Legion conundrum was solved, and a look at the 20th anniversary of this seminal event. George Pérez provides all-new art for the dustjacket.

Advance-solicited; on sale November 16 • Oversized, slipcased hardcover • 464 pg, FC, $99.99 US

----

What Dan didn't tell us, however, was how this latest compilation would differ from the 1999 hardcover and its 2000 trade paperback counterpart.This one is "Absolute" format and has the bonus material mentioned above.Dan vaguely mentioned that this reprint was somehow connected to INFINITE CRISIS. Any guesses?It's connected in the sense that DC is trying to invoke CRISIS to support IC.

[Buried Alien]

It's connected in the sense that DC is trying to invoke CRISIS to support IC.

After all the hype, I'd be *very* disappointed if once again, INFINITE CRISIS is connected to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS in name only. :(


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Expletive Deleted]

*shrug*

It's not like I know for certain, either way.

I'm just skeptical because almost all of the hype linking the two (that I've seen, at least) has been on the fan speculation side of the equation. I can't recall much in terms of "official" hype that would imply a more concrete connection.

[Paul Newell]

From what I remember, the official "hype" was that the Absolute edition and Infinite Crisis were both mentioned as "celebrating" the 20th anniversary of COIE.

[Buried Alien]

From what I remember, the official "hype" was that the Absolute edition and Infinite Crisis were both mentioned as "celebrating" the 20th anniversary of COIE.

Which is so confoundingly vague, it could mean everything or nothing. :) :confused:


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

Well, not that vague for the Absolute edition.

As to Infinite Crisis, though I can't remember the exact wording wording, it was just something simple like, "We'll celebrate the anniversary by bringing out another major mini-series with "Crisis" in the title.

I'm pretty sure they were talking about the Infinite Crisis "event" not the Infinite Crisis storyline itself.

[Buried Alien]

Someone once said that insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome despite all evidence to the contrary.

I must be certifiably insane, then, because for twenty years, I've believed that DC would give us a *proper* closure to the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse...despite many disappointments. It's probably not going to be the last time that they bait and I bite either...

Put me in Arkham Asklum now...



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[hitokiri_]

Someone once said that insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome despite all evidence to the contrary.

I must be certifiably insane, then, because for twenty years, I've believed that DC would give us a *proper* closure to the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse...despite many disappointments. It's probably not going to be the last time that they bait and I bite either...

Put me in Arkham Asklum now...



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


*drugs buried alien and stashes him in arkham asylum*

[Shellhead]

When I read this thread title, I pictured something like those Absolut vodka ads... A series of comic panels showing various scenes on various worlds... in each case, white skies approaching and an empty bottle of Absolut.

[Chewbaccacabra]

If you want it as much as I do - it is cheaper order online. dcbservice.com has it for $55.95. If I had to pay a $100 for it, I probably wouldnt buy it either.

[DDM]

What makes The Crisis On Infinite Earths: The Absolute Edition different from the 1999 hardcover book which also reprints Crisis On Infinite Earths #1-12?

[PatrickG]

I know it has Mark Waid's editorial notes, an epilogue essay explaining how the universe continued to change, leading to stuff like Byrne's MAN OF STEEL... and I wanna say panel-by-panel commentaet, which looks to be a major feature of these ABSOLUTE things.

[Gingold]

The abolute hardcovers are larger, so the art can be seen at a larger size. It's also being completely re-colored, I believe. There's also a second book of extras in the package which will include DC's hard to find Crisis Indexes along with some other stuff.

[PatrickG]

The last TPB completely recolored the art already.

[DDM]

Thanks all. I just put in a request for my LCS to hold me the hardcover edition, although I already have the 1999 version.

[DDM]

The abolute hardcovers are larger, so the art can be seen at a larger size. It's also being completely re-colored, I believe. There's also a second book of extras in the package which will include DC's hard to find Crisis Indexes along with some other stuff.

I have both original Crisis indexes.

[Buried Alien]

Is the release day this coming Wednesday? Depending on whether or not it's coming out, I'm going to decide whether or not to do the long after-work commute to the comic shop I trust (Golden Apple) for the BIG stuff.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

I have both original Crisis indexes.
Apparently they've been updated somehow.

[Chewbaccacabra]

The Monitor Tapes are shot from the original art this time or something I heard.

I'm looking forward to this.

[DDM]

Is the release day this coming Wednesday? Depending on whether or not it's coming out, I'm going to decide whether or not to do the long after-work commute to the comic shop I trust (Golden Apple) for the BIG stuff.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

The release date got pushed back to November.

[west3man]

Someone once said that insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome despite all evidence to the contrary.

I must be certifiably insane, then, because for twenty years, I've believed that DC would give us a *proper* closure to the Pre-CRISIS Multiverse...despite many disappointments. It's probably not going to be the last time that they bait and I bite either...

Put me in Arkham Asklum now...



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Oh, what a difference a few months makes, eh? :)

[west3man]

The release date got pushed back to November.
This week, in fact.




If you haven't noticed, I'm looking forward to this. :)

[LordEd1976]

If you want it as much as I do - it is cheaper order online. dcbservice.com has it for $55.95. If I had to pay a $100 for it, I probably wouldnt buy it either.

Amen. while the extras soudn cool, I don't anyone who makes enough to shell 100 BUCKS for the damm thing. Myself included. Most I'll pay for a book is $25-30 and even then it had better REALLY SOMETHING.

[Paul Newell]

This week, in fact.




If you haven't noticed, I'm looking forward to this. :)
BTW a warning....It depends on WHEN it was ordered by your retailer as well.

It's a split shipment. If your retailer ordered it before October 5th, then it will arrive this week. If not, it won't arrive until much later. I think I saw January 5 mentioned, though don't hold me to that.

This was announced a couple of weeks ago with the offer to retailers to reduce their orders.

[Paul Newell]

Amen. while the extras soudn cool, I don't anyone who makes enough to shell 100 BUCKS for the damm thing. Myself included. Most I'll pay for a book is $25-30 and even then it had better REALLY SOMETHING.

If a 370 page, slipcased, oversized, slipcased hardback, containing George Perez art, with a 100 page companion book, chock full of information and rare art isn't REALLY SOMETHING....Well I don't know what is. :)

[Guts/Batman]

Given the price, I'll have to decide if I reallllllly want this...

[west3man]

Given the price, I'll have to decide if I reallllllly want this...
S'all about the discounts, baBYYY!

[yenaled]

I want it!

I WANT IT NOW.

[Guts/Batman]

S'all about the discounts, baBYYY!

hopefully I can get some.

This would have kicked ass if this was out last week because our LCS had a 10% off everything in the store sale on Friday.

[Sean Walsh]

If we're looking for discounts, I'd head over to Amazon. It's not in stock yet.......but it will be less than $99.99. ;)

[Buried Alien]

I got it! I got it! :)

Mark Waid has officially gone insane. The CRISIS COMPENDIUM identified 86 Earths combined from the Pre- and Post-COIE continuities (accounting for the Multiverse, Pre-COIE "Imaginary Stories", and Post-COIE ELSEWORLDS tales).

KINGDOM COME, it should be noted, occurred on Earth-96.

Conspicuously absent: the current, Post-COIE mainstream DCU Earth. It was not mentioned in the otherwise exhaustive list.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Guts/Batman]

Yea.

I ended up getting it.

I haven't gotten to it yet (as I got individual issues to get through first)...

[west3man]

I got it! I got it! :)

Mark Waid has officially gone insane. The CRISIS COMPENDIUM identified 86 Earths combined from the Pre- and Post-COIE continuities (accounting for the Multiverse, Pre-COIE "Imaginary Stories", and Post-COIE ELSEWORLDS tales).

KINGDOM COME, it should be noted, occurred on Earth-96.

Conspiculously absent: the current, Post-COIE mainstream DCU Earth. It was not mentioned in the otherwise exhaustive list.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I got mine, too. I've flipped through it all, now I'm reading and looking it over more carefully - as much as I can while on the phone, anyway.

It's definitely pretty. :) I look forward to diving into it a bit more.

[Steve]

I want this but it doesn't seem like Mile High or InstockTrades as it in stock at the moment. They have very good discounts. Mile High is just extended their 20% off codeword (THANKYOU) sale for a week with free ship over $40, while InStockTrades usually as a 35% off on cover prices with free ship over $50.

January 5th then?

[Paul Newell]

I want this but it doesn't seem like Mile High or InstockTrades as it in stock at the moment. They have very good discounts. Mile High is just extended their 20% off codeword (THANKYOU) sale for a week with free ship over $40, while InStockTrades usually as a 35% off on cover prices with free ship over $50.

January 5th then?
Prsumably.

BTW I saw the press release for why the shipment has been staggered...DC underestimated the demand for the book.

[Guts/Batman]

Prsumably.

BTW I saw the press release for why the shipment has been staggered...DC underestimated the demand for the book.

I can see why.

I haven't read COIE in depth so I'm really looking forward to it.

It's easily twice the size of my slipcover copy of JLAvengers. Hell, the size of the main book is the size of the slip cover of JLAvengers.

That's just...wow.

Plus, my LCS had all trades 10% off so I got it at some discount. Even if it was only $10.

[Paul Newell]

I can see why.

I haven't read COIE in depth so I'm really looking forward to it.

It's easily twice the size of my slipcover copy of JLAvengers. Hell, the size of the main book is the size of the slip cover of JLAvengers.

That's just...wow.

Plus, my LCS had all trades 10% off so I got it at some discount. Even if it was only $10.
That's a BIG book! No wonder its $100 :eek:

[Guts/Batman]

That's a BIG book! No wonder its $100 :eek:

That's why I was on the fence. But when I saw it at my LCS, I couldn't put it down.

I have debated the last few weeks of just getting the tpb but decided to bite the bullet.

I don't think I'll be getting anymore Absolutes for awhile after this one. Unless DC comes out with one I reaaaaaaaaalllly want.

But I still have a few comics to get through so it'll be a few hours before I start in on COIE, at least.

[Paul Newell]

That's why I was on the fence. But when I saw it at my LCS, I couldn't put it down.

I have debated the last few weeks of just getting the tpb but decided to bite the bullet.

I don't think I'll be getting anymore Absolutes for awhile after this one. Unless DC comes out with one I reaaaaaaaaalllly want.

But I still have a few comics to get through so it'll be a few hours before I start in on COIE, at least.
JLA/Avengers is the only one to interest me and I think it makes a good companion volume to this one. :)

[Crimson Avenger]

I got it! I got it! :)

Mark Waid has officially gone insane. The CRISIS COMPENDIUM identified 86 Earths combined from the Pre- and Post-COIE continuities (accounting for the Multiverse, Pre-COIE "Imaginary Stories", and Post-COIE ELSEWORLDS tales).

KINGDOM COME, it should be noted, occurred on Earth-96.

Conspicuously absent: the current, Post-COIE mainstream DCU Earth. It was not mentioned in the otherwise exhaustive list.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

A few other Earths of interest:

Earth 97: Tangent Comics.

Earth 898: JLA: The Nail.

Earth WTF, I mean Earth-57: Bigamy is legal, and Superman has married both Lois Lane AND Lana Lang! Also, Jimmy Olsen and Supergirl are married. This story took place in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #57.

I think it's interesting that DC has now placed the Elseworlds stories into numbered or named Earths in the multiverse. This only gives me more reason to believe that the multiverse is coming back somehow or the Crisis is being undone. The intent of COIE anyway was to simplify the DCU and it seems that they are recognizing that things aren't as simple as was intended.

[west3man]

It makes sense that it'd be so doggone big. It was a 12-issue maxi-series.

JLA/Avengers was four issues long. Four thick issues, but only four. Btw, I had no plans to get that one, either, but DAYUM. It was so PURDY and MegaCON had a saWEET deal on'em!

[Steve]

I can see why.

I haven't read COIE in depth so I'm really looking forward to it.

It's easily twice the size of my slipcover copy of JLAvengers. Hell, the size of the main book is the size of the slip cover of JLAvengers.

That's just...wow.

Plus, my LCS had all trades 10% off so I got it at some discount. Even if it was only $10.
When you say twice the size, you're referring to the thickness of the book right, and not the length/width?

I own two other Absolutes (Batman Hush and JLA/Avengers) and they're the same sizes length/width-wise.

[Guts/Batman]

When you say twice the size, you're referring to the thickness of the book right, and not the length/width?

I own two other Absolutes (Batman Hush and JLA/Avengers) and they're the same sizes length/width-wise.

Yea, the thickness of the book.

Length/width is the same.

My only other Absolute is JLA/Avengers. I passed on Hush. Hush...was...not worthy of Absolute treatment, IMO.

I also happened to have the two tpb so it wasn't priority. Now, if they made other Batman Absolutes I would consider getting them more. Though Hush was pretty big in volume as well. Probably even bigger than JLA/Avengers.

[Steve]

Yea, the thickness of the book.

Length/width is the same.

My only other Absolute is JLA/Avengers. I passed on Hush. Hush...was...not worthy of Absolute treatment, IMO.

I also happened to have the two tpb so it wasn't priority. Now, if they made other Batman Absolutes I would consider getting them more. Though Hush was pretty big in volume as well. Probably even bigger than JLA/Avengers.
What can I say? I'm a Jim Lee mark. Love his art. But it would make sense that it'd be thicker cause it was 12 issues, compared to JLa/Avengers' four.

As for other Batman Absolutes? I missed out on getting the hardcovers for Dark Victory and The Long Halloween (which are hard to find these days since they're out of print), so I wouldn't mind if DC released them as Absolutes. Plus, those are a lot of issues between the two minis.

[Guts/Batman]

What can I say? I'm a Jim Lee mark. Love his art. But it would make sense that it'd be thicker cause it was 12 issues, compared to JLa/Avengers' four.

As for other Batman Absolutes? I missed out on getting the hardcovers for Dark Victory and The Long Halloween (which are hard to find these days since they're out of print), so I wouldn't mind if DC released them as Absolutes. Plus, those are a lot of issues between the two minis.

I didn't know the Long Halloween and Dark Victory were on hardcover. I just got the Long Halloween tpb so I would probably go for Dark Victory on tpb or Absolute.

Yea, it does make sense that Hush was thicker because of the sheer number of issues. My brother wanted to read JLA/Avengers but said that's not a flip througher. You actually have to read it (because of the hardcover nature of it).

JLA/Avengers always takes me at least an hour to read when I do read it all the way through.

I like Jim Lee's art as well but he's not on my top 5 favorites so it wasn't really offering me anything I really wanted. I have laid out why it doesn't really offer me anything I want to read on numerous other threads so I will digress on this thread (Shadow knows how I feel about Hush).

[Buried Alien]

Other prominently missing Earths:

The Earth where Marvel and DC characters can meet without crossing universes (as seen in all 1970s and 1980s DC/Marvel crossovers).

The Earth where THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES BACK occurred.

SUPERFRIENDS Earth.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Guts/Batman]

How could we miss Superfriends Earth?

Btw, I loved the title Earth WTF. That was priceless.

[Paul Newell]

Other prominently missing Earths:

The Earth where Marvel and DC characters can meet without crossing universes (as seen in all 1970s and 1980s DC/Marvel crossovers).

The Earth where THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES BACK occurred.

SUPERFRIENDS Earth.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Superfriends wasn't separate, though, it happened on Earth 1. That was established in the first special.

[Buried Alien]

Superfriends wasn't separate, though, it happened on Earth 1. That was established in the first special.

Really? There seem to be some discrepancies between Earth-1 and SUPERFRIENDS, however. For example, the Earth-1 JLA was based in the JLA Satellite throughout the 1970s and early 1980s, but the Superfriends were based in the Hall of Justice. Additionally, I don't remember ever seeing Wendy, Marvin, Wonder Dog, the Wonder Twins, or Gleek in any Earth-1 comics. Finally, Robin (Dick Grayson) was a member of the Superfriends, but was never officially affiliated with the JLA in any capacity (at least not until many years later, Post-COIE, when he was Nightwing).

Additionally, I don't think Apache Chief or that character that replaced Black Lightning ever showed up on Earth-1.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

Limited Collectors Edition C-41 had the first Superfriends story which was only a framing sequence to present some old JLA reprints, but it showcases JLA continuity heavily. The first issue of the series explains the set up of the Superfriends. The JLA satellite is still the headquarters of the JLA, the Hall of Justice is a training ground for young people wanting to become heroes. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman are teachers, Robin is the liason between students and the JLA, as well as a sort of "camp counsellor/big brother". In issue #7 Wendy and Marvin graduate and Zan & Jayna take their place as new students.

As to other heroes, the rest of the JLA guest starred regularly, as well as other heroes and villains. But the only ones to appear exclusively in the Superfriends series were the international heroes that formed the Global Guardians. There was no Apache Chief or Vulcan.

[west3man]

Limited Collectors Edition C-41 had the first Superfriends story which was only a framing sequence to present some old JLA reprints, but it showcases JLA continuity heavily. The first issue of the series explains the set up of the Superfriends. The JLA satellite is still the headquarters of the JLA, the Hall of Justice is a training ground for young people wanting to become heroes. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman are teachers, Robin is the liason between students and the JLA, as well as a sort of "camp counsellor/big brother". In issue #7 Wendy and Marvin graduate and Zan & Jayna take their place as new students.

As to other heroes, the rest of the JLA guest starred regularly, as well as other heroes and villains. But the only ones to appear exclusively in the Superfriends series were the international heroes that formed the Global Guardians. There was no Apache Chief or Vulcan.
wow

Hard to believe they went to all of that trouble for the sake of continuity.

[PatrickG]

Wendy and Marvin were intended to be Batman's niece and nephew by Hanna Barbara's producers.

Now, Bruce wasn't an only child on Earth-1. His brother Thomas was severely mentally handicapped, however, and only showed up in one story that I recall.

I suppose Marvin and Wendy could have been tied to Bruce's Uncle Phillip or his cousin Bruce N. Wayne.

But they ultimately weren't. The explanation in the comics was that Wendy was the Earth-1 counterpart of Hourman's wife, Wendi Harris. Meanwhile, Marvin's last name was White. (Maybe he was related to Perry? I concede amnesia here.)

EDIT: Just Googled this. Wendy was the Earth-1 Wendy Harris. She was also the niece of the detective Harvey Harris who trained Batman. Marvin was the son of Diana Prince, the woman whose identity Wonder Woman assumed. She was married to Dan White. Marvin named Wonder Dog after Wonder Woman.

[Paul Newell]

wow

Hard to believe they went to all of that trouble for the sake of continuity.

Not really, this was all explained in something like two panels...As things were in the old days. ;)

As to the characters like Apache Chief, Samurai and Vulcan, I have a feeling that, as Hanna Barbera created them, they owned them and DC couldn't use them. So they created their own...Of course this all changed down the track.

[DDM]

It makes sense that it'd be so doggone big. It was a 12-issue maxi-series.

JLA/Avengers was four issues long. Four thick issues, but only four. Btw, I had no plans to get that one, either, but DAYUM. It was so PURDY and MegaCON had a saWEET deal on'em!

Crisis On Infinite Earths #7, 12 are double size issues too.

[west3man]

I've gotta confess, though... I was hoping for more sketches n stuff.

What am I talking about "more?" I wanted SOME sketches n stuff. There were none.

That's what I get for gobbling up every square inch of that Absolute Watchmen volume, I guess. Even that didn't have as many sketches as I'd have liked.

HUSH, on the other hand... sketches for DAYS. Yum.



I will say that the jackets/covers were pretty doggone impressive in the Ab CoIE hc. Sometimes they do these things and make the exteriors so blah that they're only worth looking at when the dust jacket's on. Take that off and you'd better open the book QUICK... or you might doze off from visual boredom.

This book, on the other hand, was SPICY! No scans would do it justice, imo. (The exterior, I mean.)

The coloring reminded me a lot of the Watchmen volume. The PURE WHITE borders are a pleasure to behold. I love my actual issues of Crisis oIE, but I really appreciate the recoloring of the tpb - and the gloss. Love the gloss.

The Ab volume has another level of recoloring, it seems (didn't expect that) AND beautiful white pages, but no gloss. That's kinda disappointing, like with Watchmen, but it's still beautiful work. I'm guessing there's some reason that glossy pages wouldn't be a good idea - like sticking n whatnot.



Whew. I didn't expect that to turn into a rant.

[west3man]

Crisis On Infinite Earths #7, 12 are double size issues too.
Oooh. Good point.

[west3man]

Not really, this was all explained in something like two panels...As things were in the old days. ;)

As to the characters like Apache Chief, Samurai and Vulcan, I have a feeling that, as Hanna Barbera created them, they owned them and DC couldn't use them. So they created their own...Of course this all changed down the track.
Still. I'm surprised they cared enough.

Plus, I'm really shocked by the range of things they explained - both what you shared (many thx for that) and the various Earth numbers (which I somehow missed).

[west3man]

Y'know, I didn't get as sweet of a deal as I would've liked on this, but it was a very good one and I got to take it home with me immediately, instead of waiting on it to be delivered - in who knows what condition.

After seeing how many retailers are NOT selling this, I'm really glad I scooped up my copy when I did. I saw one online for $60 (free shipping, in fact), but passed on it. Something in my gut. That would've been a nice bit o' savings, though.

[Guts/Batman]

What are all the shadow warriors?

[west3man]

What are all the shadow warriors?
You want us to TELL YOU?

Since you asked (and I just re-read that part), they're the baddest of the BIG BAD GUY's bad guys. He made them into those shadow demons.

[Guts/Batman]

You want us to TELL YOU?

Since you asked (and I just re-read that part), they're the baddest of the BIG BAD GUY's bad guys. He made them into those shadow demons.

That's what I thought.

I just read it earlier. I'm on "Oblivion upon us" right now.

[Paul Newell]

Mine just arrived in the mail....HOLY COW!!! And I'm glad to see the Perez/Ross cover from the first hardcover didn't go to waste.

BTW, the inside of the main book is exctly the same foreword, backword and sketches as the first. And the character art that appears between issues is from Who's Who.

I've only scanned the compendium so far, but I'm overjoyed to see that they included the G.I. Combat panels that the Monitor appeared in....BEFORE Crisis. :)

[Guts/Batman]

I just noticed the back of the main book. Kick ass.

[Paul Newell]

I've gotta confess, though... I was hoping for more sketches n stuff.

What am I talking about "more?" I wanted SOME sketches n stuff. There were none.

Check out the end of the main book for character sketches and I noticed some penciled pages in the compendium as well...Not many, but there's a few.

[Guts/Batman]

Finished the story...

Only took me about 7 hours to read parts 3-12, I believe.

[west3man]

I'm surprised there aren't more people interested in this.Finished the story...

Only took me about 7 hours to read parts 3-12, I believe.Hehe. I was reading it, yesterday, and realized an hour or so had passed... and I'd barely made a dent. Maaan, that is one LOOOONG story. But *you* know that better than I do, at this point.



It was kinda interesting seeing the previous incarnations of the heroes - Captain Atom, especially. I didn't care for that old costume of his, but it was kinda neat to see how different things looked, back then. Of course, I'm not too fond of the illustrations of his new look, but I think that's mostly because one or more of the artists aren't very good at rendering metal.

Anyway, it was also kinda interesting reading it because of the fact that it was a different world. Duh! I know. But really, so many heroes didn't know each other! They were just meeting for the first time, back then. Now I'm *used* to this person knowing that one. It was shocking THAT it was so shocking. I thought I was more familiar with the CoIE than this.



Oh yeah! Now that I've read the extras in Absolute Watchmen, I more closely relate the Watchmen characters with the Charleton characters they were inspired by. Well, reading Crisis, I saw some of those inspirations in action - some I'd never even SEEN before!

Heck, The Question was riding in Blue Beetle's Bug vehicle thingee. I only got glimpses of most of them, but it really stood out to me. Neat stuff.

[Guts/Batman]

Yea.

It was kick ass.

Damned Anti-Monitor just wouldn't stay down.

Interesting the Spectre-AM fight. I had a different image in my head but cool nonetheless.

Time just flew by reading it. Beofre I knew it was 2 am and just didn't wanna put the book away. The old costumes were interesting to see.

I'm glad I got it.

[west3man]

Yea.

It was kick ass.

Damned Anti-Monitor just wouldn't stay down.

Interesting the Spectre-AM fight. I had a different image in my head but cool nonetheless.

Time just flew by reading it. Beofre I knew it was 2 am and just didn't wanna put the book away. The old costumes were interesting to see.

I'm glad I got it.
Yup. Seeing Lois, still fooled by the glasses, kinda shocked me.

I guess a lot more has changed than I realized. I really hope they don't throw it ALL away.

[west3man]

That Compendium is inspiring me to go on hunt/mission. Now, I want some of those key Crisis issues. Well, they're key to *me*, anyway, because they have certain characters or storylines that I'm fond of.

If Captain Marvel's on the cover... yeah. That's the stuff. There are a few others, too. Superman vs. Supergirl (on the cover, anyway), the All-Star Squadron, Firestorm. I want'em.

In fact, I've been thinking what a mark I'd be for a second volume that collected those issues all together. I'd love to see'em printed well. They wouldn't all be Perez art, but... *shrugs*

[Paul Newell]

I'd love a companion volume of the crossovers too....Plus, I think you could do it just showing the relevant panels of the red sky issues....As well as the lead up appearances by the Monitor and Lyla. Similar to the Prelude to Infinite Crisis TPB.

[Babylon23]

I hadn't planned on picking this up, since I still have the original issues. The Compendium book really apealed to me though, so I got it.

I'm glad I did.

It's great to see this classic series recoloured and oversized. E2 Superman's final punch is even more impressive in this format.

The compendium book was really interesting too, especially the first section detailing the creative process. I feel for Roy Thomas. His titles were really hit hard by CoIE.

As an All-star Squadron fan, I would have loved to have seen his Ultra-Man storyline.

[west3man]

Paul, or whomever corrected me about the sketches, thanks. I was glad to see there were at least *some* out there.I hadn't planned on picking this up, since I still have the original issues. The Compendium book really apealed to me though, so I got it.

I'm glad I did.

It's great to see this classic series recoloured and oversized. E2 Superman's final punch is even more impressive in this format.

The compendium book was really interesting too, especially the first section detailing the creative process. I feel for Roy Thomas. His titles were really hit hard by CoIE.

As an All-star Squadron fan, I would have loved to have seen his Ultra-Man storyline.
I'm glad you dug the Compendium. I agree about the E2 Super-punch.

I'm curious about this Ultra-Man thing, though. Hopefully, I'll stumble across it, soon.

[Guts/Batman]

Two quick questions:

1) Who's hand was that in Krona's screen?

The Presence?

2) What happened to Validus? Where did he go?

[marshal99]

Two quick questions:

1) Who's hand was that in Krona's screen?

The Presence?

2) What happened to Validus? Where did he go?

1) Been a while since i read crisis so don't know what you were referring to

2) Since the villains (including Validus) failed against the oans , i assume that when the universe were restarted , he went back to his own time in the combined earths.

[Paul Newell]

Two quick questions:

1) Who's hand was that in Krona's screen?

The Presence?

At first, though that has changed several times due to various entities interfering with the dawn of time.

2) What happened to Validus? Where did he go?

When the universe reforms? Back to the 30th Century. He was still free due to Takron Galtus being destroyed by anti-matter. When the Emerald Empress was reforming the Fatal Five, he couldn't be found as he had been taken by Darkseid to complete his revenge for being defeated in the Great Darkness Saga. His plan, to have Validus' own parents kill him, is foiled and Saturn Girl requests that he return Validus to normal. Impressed, Darkseid does as she requests.

[Guts/Batman]

Aha.

Thanks Paul and Marshal.

Hmmmmm...

I just read The Great Darkness Saga (kicked much ass btw, PC Darkseid is one my favorite characters) and saw him with the villains in COIE so I was wondering what happened to him.

Btw, what issues or whatnot is the follow-up to The Great Darkness Saga? That would be much appreciated.

Also, another question from COIE. Does Brainiac remember the Crisis? Shouldn't he remember? Shouldn't the group that went to Apokolipis remember it better than anyone else?

[Paul Newell]

Aha.

Thanks Paul and Marshal.

Hmmmmm...

I just read The Great Darkness Saga (kicked much ass btw, PC Darkseid is one my favorite characters) and saw him with the villains in COIE so I was wondering what happened to him.

Btw, what issues or whatnot is the follow-up to The Great Darkness Saga? That would be much appreciated.

Also, another question from COIE. Does Brainiac remember the Crisis? Shouldn't he remember? Shouldn't the group that went to Apokolipis remember it better than anyone else?

Annual V2 #3, which is included in the TPB and Annual V3 #2 which should have been.

After Meckanique and Athena let the full effects of the Crisis take hold, only the Psycho Pirate remembered the Crisis as it originally happened.

[Buried Alien]

After Meckanique and Athena let the full effects of the Crisis take hold, only the Psycho Pirate remembered the Crisis as it originally happened.

There might have been a few others, including the Spectre, the wizard Shazam, and maybe the Guardians of the Universe. Harbinger probably also remembered, being keeper of the Monitor's legacy and all.

It's been speculated that the Fourth World characters knew, although that's never been confirmed. The Linear Men found out about it (but kept mum). It's also possible such extradimensional beings such as Mr. Myxlptlk knew.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Babylon23]

I'm curious about this Ultra-Man thing, though. Hopefully, I'll stumble across it, soon.

It's in the compendium, at the beginning, in one or two of Roy Thomas' memos. I should point out that he's not talking about the Earth-3 Ultra-Man. The character in question is Gary Concord the Ultra-Man, a character from the early issues of All-American Comics.

[west3man]

It's in the compendium, at the beginning, in one or two of Roy Thomas' memos. I should point out that he's not talking about the Earth-3 Ultra-Man. The character in question is Gary Concord the Ultra-Man, a character from the early issues of All-American Comics.
Ahhh. Thanks.






Y'know, either 1) I still don't fully *get* The Crisis OR 2) DC never fully *got* it. The second possibility isn't as ludicrous as it might seem, at first glance, but I won't discount the first, just yet.

The Superboy thing - why couldn't the Legion still have been formed, but for other reasons... just like Kara still got to Earth, it was just done another way? More importantly, though, I've gotten the impression, from reading The Compendium, that the Legion's era was supposed to remain unaffected by The Crisis, as if it was just an event that took place around 1985 or so, it shook some stuff up, but that it ultimately had no effect on them.

Say, huh?! It merged Earths. That's changing the past, the present, AND the future. So, you wiped Superboy out of existence and change some characters' histories? Cool. Wipe out Superboy's effect on The Legion (or have them inspired by ANOTHER Superboy) and change THEIR histories.


If I've misunderstood the supposed effects of The Crisis, then cool, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that it WAS supposed to be a pebble in the pond,... but one which produced waves that only travelled so far. That seems "off," to me, when we're talking about affects events in linear time.

[Sk8maven]

The Superboy thing - why couldn't the Legion still have been formed, but for other reasons... Unfortunately, that's like saying, "why couldn't the JSA have formed at some later date, without a specific connection to World War II?" There was entirely too much history and backstory tied into the Superboy connection (and the WWII connection) for such a maneuver to be anything short of totally disruptive.

More importantly, though, I've gotten the impression, from reading The Compendium, that the Legion's era was supposed to remain unaffected by The Crisis, as if it was just an event that took place around 1985 or so, it shook some stuff up, but that it ultimately had no effect on them.That may have been the idea, but it turned into a "Butterfly Effect". Something that has obviously escaped your notice is that one whole future was erased and negated by Crisis - there "never was" a "Great Disaster" or a Kamandi or any of his adventures. The child who would have been Kamandi was instead found and adopted by Colonel Horatio Tomorrow, and became Tommy Tomorrow of the Planeteers.

Say, huh?! It merged Earths. That's changing the past, the present, AND the future. So, you wiped Superboy out of existence and change some characters' histories? Cool. Wipe out Superboy's effect on The Legion (or have them inspired by ANOTHER Superboy) and change THEIR histories.That was what the "Pocket Universe Superboy" beeswax was supposed to be about. (The erasure of Supergirl from ever having existed - including from ever having met or fighting alongside the Legion - was tacitly ignored, even though the erasure completely wrecks the "Great Darkness Saga", arguably the Legion's "finest hour".)

The trouble was that "Legion of Super-Heroes" was one of DC's VERY best-selling books (as was the then-current version of Teen Titans), and DC didn't want to stop its momentum cold by restarting it from the get-go. So instead of killing their golden goose quickly by chopping its head off, they strangled it slowly.

Legion has never recovered, and in all probability it never will.

Maven

[west3man]

Unfortunately, that's like saying, "why couldn't the JSA have formed at some later date, without a specific connection to World War II?" There was entirely too much history and backstory tied into the Superboy connection (and the WWII connection) for such a maneuver to be anything short of totally disruptive. That's a particularly appropriate comparison, considering that the JSA's origins were also discussed in the parts of The Compendium that I recently read.

Really, it seems that DC wanted to fix its continuity, but it didn't REALLLLY wanna fix it.

You're either prepared to kill off/erase a bunch of folks and rewrite time, itself... or you aren't. This isn't the kind of thing to do half-assed, especially considering its purpose.


Oh well. Keep striving for perfection, I guess.

[Hellcow]

Well, I just got mine. I love it, except...

My copies got some pages that were mangled in the print process.

I had the same problem with Absolute Watchmen.

Maybe I'm just unlucky but for the sort of money you pay, I don't think its too much to ask the print/binding process has some quality control.

So don't just buy it and stick it on the shelf. Make sure your copy is in decent condition. Don't let the shrink wrap fool you.

[west3man]

Well, I just got mine. I love it, except...

My copies got some pages that were mangled in the print process.

I had the same problem with Absolute Watchmen.

Maybe I'm just unlucky but for the sort of money you pay, I don't think its too much to ask the print/binding process has some quality control.

So don't just buy it and stick it on the shelf. Make sure your copy is in decent condition. Don't let the shrink wrap fool you.
The plastic may not fool'em, but it'll stop'em (the store workers) from checking the pages. I believe it'd be fair to request a refund, though. We just have to open them before leaving the store.

Sorry you experienced that, though. You're right. At that price, they should be loving us up.

[derekwc]

Sorry this may be a little off-topic, but I had I follow up question to
the Superfriends Earth-1 bit.

I recall how HB meant for Wendi to be Bruce Wayne's Niece.

Who is this retarded brother Thomas that was mentioned?

Bruce Wayne had other relatives on Earth One? That doesn't seem
to make a whole lot of sense....where were they?

[PatrickG]

Basically...

TEEN TITANS and LEGION were too "hot" to reboot from what I've heard.

So the basic problem started there.

DC's hot titles were steeped in pre-Crisis continuity.

So they let those books keep their continuity even as the big franchises got rebooted.

Batman, being the most marketable in many ways, got the least substantial reboot. You can count on two hands the changes made to his history by Crisis. Sure, he got a bad attitude... But to this day, stories occasionally feature Batman grinning with Robin at his side, fighting the Riddler with giant roof props.

He's the same guy with a bad attitude.

Meanwhile, with characters like Superman, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman and Hawkman, you could count on two hands the elements that were KEPT in their history.

They're essentially new characters trying to act like older ones.

[Smarty Jones]

The problem with Superman and Hawkman and Hawkgirl was not with "Crisis On Infinite Earths" itself, but the logic editors and creators used in their stories post-"Crisis."

The biggest mistake with Superman, IMO, was the decision to say Clark Kent was never a teen-aged superhero. As a result, The Legion of Super-Heroes suddenly were invalidated because he was the inspiration for their formation. That led into a load of other bad decisions to explain his presence and summarily the several reboots to where the characters are not the same ones pre-"Crisis."

Poor logic and decision is what damaged Hawkman and Hawkgirl's Silver Age and Golden Age versions. The creators simply could have tied their histories together, by saying a Thanagarian spaceship landed in ancient Egypt and gave Khufu and Chay-Ara the Nth Metal that bound their souls alternately on Earth and Thanagar. When the Golden Age Hawkman (Carter Hall) and Hawkgirl (Sheira Saunders) died, they were resurrected as the Silver Age Hawkman (Katar Hol) and Hawkgirl (Shayera Hol).

[rexpop]

Annual V2 #3, which is included in the TPB and Annual V3 #2 which should have been.

Also worth mentioning was 'The Quiet Darkness' in LSH v4 which was billed as a thematic sequel, but apart from the fact it has Darkseid in it had little to do with the original. Some nice Keith Giffen/Al Gordon artwork though.

[thehod]

Got my copy of this for Christmas of the truly wonderful Mrs Hod.

Oh. My. God.

Made my day.

[west3man]

Got my copy of this for Christmas of the truly wonderful Mrs Hod.

Oh. My. God.

Made my day.
Congrats, man.

[Paradox]

west3man hits on something I seem to be nearly alone on in Legion fandom:

The Superboy thing - why couldn't the Legion still have been formed, but for other reasons...

The could have...easily...as they eventually DID. Superboy wasn't important to the Legion any more (I've had this argument before...I'll see if I can dig up the thread) by that time except as "the inspiration", a role that many could fill.

I think it was mostly because certain Paul Levitzes couldn't let go, to the point of even trying to resurrect Kara until the bosses put a kibosh on it.

Geez, at least Roy Thomas (also "betrayed") tried to play by the rules and fill in as best he could, weak though it was.

EDIT: Found the thread. Don't be confused if it seems to already be in progress. Paul split it off from another thread in an attempt to make me look like an evil instigator. :evilsmile

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=56221

[west3man]

The could have...easily...as they eventually DID. Superboy wasn't important to the Legion any more (I've had this argument before...I'll see if I can dig up the thread) by that time except as "the inspiration", a role that many could fill.

I think it was mostly because certain Paul Levitzes couldn't let go, to the point of even trying to resurrect Kara until the bosses put a kibosh on it.

Geez, at least Roy Thomas (also "betrayed") tried to play by the rules and fill in as best he could, weak though it was.

EDIT: Found the thread. Don't be confused if it seems to already be in progress. Paul split it off from another thread in an attempt to make me look like an evil instigator. :evilsmile

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=56221
Oh cool. I'm going to have to check that out some time. Thanks.

I'm kinda surprised that someone agreed that the Legion's inspiration could've been something or someone else (like SuperMAN, maybe? I dunno. Maybe the inspiration needed to be someone young.). As you may have seen, by now, some/most feel that Superboy was too big a part of the Legion's origins to be removed (without making a huge change in what makes the Legion who they are). Heck, the Absolute Crisis oIE compendium or whatever even states, rather matter-of-factly, that Superboy's removal was (significantly) problematic, in this way. Then again, I'm not sure who wrote that particular part of it.

Since I didn't know (or remember) he was their inspiration and since that has nothing to do with what I liked about them, I thought the change was entirely possible. *shrugs*

[west3man]

My first impression of that thread (well, the first few posts, anyway) was that Superboy's inclusion/exclusion isn't any more problematic than one ought to expect when choosing to rewrite THIS history, but not THAT history within a particular realm of continuity.

I don't see what made this any worse than so many other examples of stories that couldn't have happened because of CoIE. Heck, people's powers weren't even the same, in some cases.


I also find it interesting that they "solved" (or attempted to solve) the Superboy/Legion problem, then eventually came up with ANOTHER Superboy... who possibly, could've been substituted in some way.

Of course, all things wouldn't be the same, but, again, they COULDN'T BE since Crisis's purpose was to selectively edit past/future events.

[Paradox]

west3man explores the territory:

I'm kinda surprised that someone agreed that the Legion's inspiration could've been something or someone else

Heh, trust me, I don't get a whole lot of support for my opinion. ;)

(like SuperMAN, maybe? I dunno. Maybe the inspiration needed to be someone young.).

Like, maybe, some whole team full of folks that started out as kids? :evilsmile

(As you may have seen, by now, some/most feel that Superboy was too big a part of the Legion's origins to be removed (without making a huge change in what makes the Legion who they are). Heck, the Absolute Crisis oIE compendium or whatever even states, rather matter-of-factly, that Superboy's removal was (significantly) problematic, in this way. Then again, I'm not sure who wrote that particular part of it.

It always sounds like excuse making to me. They evenutally did it, and it worked fine. The problem was that, for one, Levitz didn't like it and for another, lack of communication in editorial. Once they got rid of the Supers in the Legion, they forgot completely about the half-assed Pocket Dimension explanation that lead to the Matrix/Supergirl. Then they thought they had to go back and fix THAT, too, but as an afterthought. Again, a mess. I stand firm with my conviction that if they'd just done the Mon-el switch first, instead of dicking around trying to "save" patches, things would have gone a lot smoother.

(Since I didn't know (or remember) he was their inspiration and since that has nothing to do with what I liked about them, I thought the change was entirely possible. *shrugs*

I wasn't into the Legion from the VERY beginning, but very near ('64). Superboy in the Legion didn't really impress me that much even back then. It was "there's Superboy...and Supergirl...but who are all these OTHER cool characters???". I would get annoyed that Superboy, who had plenty of exposure elsewhere, was clogging up "MY" Legion stories. :) Even as a kid I considered him redundant to Mon-el. I mean, why have someone time-travel from the past to do something, when you had a guy on the team already that could do everything he could, and could ignore kryptonite as well?

And, yeah, Ultra Boy got special dispensation in my mind because he was so cool and had one of the best chest insignias EVER! :D

[west3man]

Like, maybe, some whole team full of folks that started out as kids? :evilsmile Ahh. Makes sense to me.

By the way, I was just guessing about the Superman/youth thing. People have been talking about the Superboy/Legion thing for years and I've been scratching my head about the issue for most of the time.

Like I said, I didn't see Superboy-the-inspirer as an essential element. That's distinct from his being included in a lot of stories, though. But, hell, even his OWN comics became invalid, more or less, when he was wiped from continuity.

It always sounds like excuse making to me. They evenutally did it, and it worked fine. The problem was that, for one, Levitz didn't like it and for another, lack of communication in editorial. Once they got rid of the Supers in the Legion, they forgot completely about the half-assed Pocket Dimension explanation that lead to the Matrix/Supergirl. Then they thought they had to go back and fix THAT, too, but as an afterthought. Again, a mess. I stand firm with my conviction that if they'd just done the Mon-el switch first, instead of dicking around trying to "save" patches, things would have gone a lot smoother. No argument from me.


I wasn't into the Legion from the VERY beginning, but very near ('64). Superboy in the Legion didn't really impress me that much even back then. It was "there's Superboy...and Supergirl...but who are all these OTHER cool characters???". I would get annoyed that Superboy, who had plenty of exposure elsewhere, was clogging up "MY" Legion stories. :) Even as a kid I considered him redundant to Mon-el. I mean, why have someone time-travel from the past to do something, when you had a guy on the team already that could do everything he could, and could ignore kryptonite as well?

And, yeah, Ultra Boy got special dispensation in my mind because he was so cool and had one of the best chest insignias EVER! :D
I didn't get into the Legion (and this was enthusiasm born of very limited exposure to the series) 'til the late 70's/early 80's. Superboy would've been welcome, but was unnecessary, for me to enjoy Legion stories.

I feel you on the Mon-el thing (although I don't remember when the Superboy-like character(s) came about). I was cool with them having similar powers and everything.

Bah. I dunno. More than anything Superboy-related, I'd just like The Legion to be as cool as I thought they were when I was a young'un. Cool costumes, great art, awesome powers, young, great stories (I thought so, anyway).

Every time a new series comes out, I *really* wanna dig it, but I think what I liked most about'em was too closely tied to the 70's. Heck, when I flip through my Absolute CoIE hc, I see (I don't wanna frig up her name) the young lady with the wings and yellow costume and it just FEELS like the Legion I (kinda) remember.


I'm gonna hafta start looking for those issues at 'cons, in the future. I fear that's the only way I'll get my Legion "fix."

[Sk8maven]

I stand firm with my conviction that if they'd just done the Mon-el switch first, instead of dicking around trying to "save" patches, things would have gone a lot smoother.I presume you mean deleting all references to "Mon-el", substituting "Valor", and claiming that this legendary hero was THE inspiration for the Legion? Don't forget that "Mon-el" was ALSO a Crisis casualty, since his origin was inseparably tied to the nonexistent Superboy's.

IMHO, DC didn't even START to get it "right" until the post-Zero Hour explanation that the Legion was inspired by the 20th century "Age of heroes" as a whole rather than any one particular character. The writers must have thought that would prevent any further rebooting due to changes in the Legion's past...but they underestimated the power of future Legion writers to eff things up and of DC Editorial to decree whiteouts.

Maven

[west3man]

I presume you mean deleting all references to "Mon-el", substituting "Valor", and claiming that this legendary hero was THE inspiration for the Legion? Don't forget that "Mon-el" was ALSO a Crisis casualty, since his origin was inseparably tied to the nonexistent Superboy's. "Inseparably?" How so?

IMHO, DC didn't even START to get it "right" until the post-Zero Hour explanation that the Legion was inspired by the 20th century "Age of heroes" as a whole rather than any one particular character. Did you mean "with" instead of "until?" If not, I'm not sure what you felt they got right.

The writers must have thought that would prevent any further rebooting due to changes in the Legion's past...but they underestimated the power of future Legion writers to eff things up and of DC Editorial to decree whiteouts.

Maven
I hope my Legion ignorance doesn't make this stuff too hard to explain or whatever.

[Paradox]

west3man pulls out the wayback:

Ahh. Makes sense to me.

By the way, I was just guessing about the Superman/youth thing. People have been talking about the Superboy/Legion thing for years and I've been scratching my head about the issue for most of the time.

Well, as you'll find reading that other thread, I think I read that Byrne proposed originally that anything Superboy did with the Legion could actually be Superman guest-starring. They never went that way, but it could have worked. The youth bit was originally considered essential, because it was stated that he was the inspiration because he started out as a boy, and was a great, interplanetary hero. Covered by making it the Titans, as far as I would have been concerned.

I didn't get into the Legion (and this was enthusiasm born of very limited exposure to the series) 'til the late 70's/early 80's. Superboy would've been welcome, but was unnecessary, for me to enjoy Legion stories.

I feel you on the Mon-el thing (although I don't remember when the Superboy-like character(s) came about). I was cool with them having similar powers and everything.

Oh, I wasn't a Superboy HATER or anything. Having him there was O.K., just a little confusing to me, and I wanted to know more about all these OTHER characters. Supes was a book already written for me.

And Mon showed up in Superboy in '61 (a rehash of a much earlier Superman story, with the ages changed, which is now listed as "the Earth-2 Mon-el, at least according to comics.org) and went right into the Phantom Zone. He helped the Legion out a couple of times and finally got out in I THINK Adventure #300. Heh..."Legionnaire Lemon". :)

Bah. I dunno. More than anything Superboy-related, I'd just like The Legion to be as cool as I thought they were when I was a young'un. Cool costumes, great art, awesome powers, young, great stories (I thought so, anyway).

I think they still are. Even the post-boot was quite interesting to me until after they returned everyone to the 30th century in [u]Legion of Super-Heroes[/i], Vol. 4, #100. After that quality dropped DRASTICALLY, until they brought in Abnett and Lanning to change the direction (which some people laud as genius...eh, it was O.K. Very different, to be sure). And I'm enjoying Waid's rebeat quite a bit.

Every time a new series comes out, I *really* wanna dig it, but I think what I liked most about'em was too closely tied to the 70's. Heck, when I flip through my Absolute CoIE hc, I see (I don't wanna frig up her name) the young lady with the wings and yellow costume and it just FEELS like the Legion I (kinda) remember.

Heh, Dawnstar. Wow, you should talk to my old pal, Jorge Martinez (I can't for the life of me remember what handle he goes by, here). He HATES all the "Archie Legions" and much prefers them from the same era as you as young adults. We all have our preferences, usually tied to when you started. I'm weird in that I've found stuff to like about pretty much every version we've had. Guess I'm just someone who "rolls with the punches".

[Paradox]

Sk8maven was actually the one I thought would be "first into the pool":

I presume you mean deleting all references to "Mon-el", substituting "Valor", and claiming that this legendary hero was THE inspiration for the Legion?

Yup, that would be exactly the "Mon-el" switch to which I was referring.

Don't forget that "Mon-el" was ALSO a Crisis casualty, since his origin was inseparably tied to the nonexistent Superboy's.

"What's in a name?" Far from "inseperably" since they seperated them successfully enough. Lar became the son of the Daxamite that gave his life for Earth during Invasion!. How convoluted and absurd! ;)

IMHO, DC didn't even START to get it "right" until the post-Zero Hour explanation that the Legion was inspired by the 20th century "Age of heroes" as a whole rather than any one particular character.

I had no problem with that explanation, either. I agree that it was probably a better way to go (simplest being best), but that seemed to please the "Superboy purists" even LESS than the Valor explanation (I'm not even going to get into how the Supergirl purists felt about their girl getting replaced by a "tough broad in a thong" :p).

The writers must have thought that would prevent any further rebooting due to changes in the Legion's past...but they underestimated the power of future Legion writers to eff things up and of DC Editorial to decree whiteouts.

Aye and aye again. "If you keep picking at that scab, it's never going to heal".

[west3man]

Heh, Dawnstar. Wow, you should talk to my old pal, Jorge Martinez (I can't for the life of me remember what handle he goes by, here). He HATES all the "Archie Legions" and much prefers them from the same era as you as young adults. We all have our preferences, usually tied to when you started. I'm weird in that I've found stuff to like about pretty much every version we've had. Guess I'm just someone who "rolls with the punches".
Heh. I'll roll with'em. I don't have to like'em, though. It's still a punch. ;)

I don't think their ages mattered to me so much as the general "feel" (and look) of the books. Of course, your point is a super-strong one: "We all have our preferences, usually tied to when you started." Truer words...

Too bad most back-issues I find of books I liked back then aren't up to snuff. Either the physical quality's poor or the art or story are. I hate seeing great cover art, then finding Igor Kordey (for instance) pencilled the interior. It makes me less interested in flipping through a bunch of issues b/c the cover not only gives the wrong impression of the events IN the issue (something that was more prevalent back in the day) but also of the aesthetic qualities within.

[west3man]

"What's in a name?" Far from "inseperably" since they seperated them successfully enough. Lar became the son of the Daxamite that gave his life for Earth during Invasion!. How convoluted and absurd! ;)
Ohh. So THAT'S what made'em "inseperably" tied?! Yeah. That's why I have to question these things. I wouldn't call that "inseperable."

[Paradox]

I keep forgetting you're not as versed in Legion lore as others, west.

The supposed "inseperability" has to do with Lar's original origin. He crashed on Earth during Superboy's era, and Superboy thought he was his long lost brother from Krypton (Lar had the convenient "amnesia" at the time). Superboy gave him not one, but two names. Mon-el (the family name, plus "Mon" because he found him on a Monday :rolleyes: ) and his secret identity as Bob Cobb, traveling brush salesman (I THINK Superboy gave him Bob, anyway...hard to remember). When exposed to lead (kryptonite-like to Daxamites), Lar was dying, but regained his memory. So, to save him, Superboy put him into the Phantom Zone for 1000 years until Brainiac 5 came up with a permanent treatment for lead-poisoning that got Lar out of the zone, albeit on constant medication.

So, yeah, at first glance, they're VERY tied together. Origin, name, saving his life.

Unless, of course, you just change all that and tweak some names. :evilsmile

[west3man]

Ahh. Good info. Thx.I keep forgetting you're not as versed in Legion lore as others, west.

The supposed "inseperability" has to do with Lar's original origin. He crashed on Earth during Superboy's era, and Superboy thought he was his long lost brother from Krypton (Lar had the convenient "amnesia" at the time). Superboy gave him not one, but two names. Mon-el (the family name, plus "Mon" because he found him on a Monday :rolleyes: ) and his secret identity as Bob Cobb, traveling brush salesman (I THINK Superboy gave him Bob, anyway...hard to remember). When exposed to lead (kryptonite-like to Daxamites), Lar was dying, but regained his memory. So, to save him, Superboy put him into the Phantom Zone for 1000 years until Brainiac 5 came up with a permanent treatment for lead-poisoning that got Lar out of the zone, albeit on constant medication.

So, yeah, at first glance, they're VERY tied together. Origin, name, saving his life.

Unless, of course, you just change all that and tweak some names. :evilsmile
Hey, like I said before, if Wonder Woman can fly, now, Aquaman's telepathy can affect humans, and Superman can't push a planet out of orbit (without eletromagnetic powers, big link chains, and Grant Morrison), then darn-near ANYthing can be changed.


But really... "Bob Cobb?" :(

[Paradox]

west3man thinks that was bad?:

Ahh. Good info. Thx.
Hey, like I said before, if Wonder Woman can fly, now, Aquaman's telepathy can affect humans, and Superman can't push a planet out of orbit (without eletromagnetic powers, big link chains, and Grant Morrison), then darn-near ANYthing can be changed.

Yeah, the new origin seemed less goofy and convoluted to me to boot.


But really... "Bob Cobb?" :(

Oh, lord, you should have seen his plaidish jacket and doofy hat! I don't care if he could blow my house down, I ain't buyin' no brushes from a goober that dresses like THAT! ;)

[west3man]

west3man thinks that was bad?I was no fan of the WW change, but I wouldn't call'em "bad." I was just saying that some of these are somewhat significant changes to somewhat big-time characters, so clearly it's not impossible to make big changes that work. Just agreeing with you.

Yeah, the new origin seemed less goofy and convoluted to me to boot.

Oh, lord, you should have seen his plaidish jacket and doofy hat! I don't care if he could blow my house down, I ain't buyin' no brushes from a goober that dresses like THAT! ;)
*shakes head*

Now that I think about it, that reminds me of the FF look waybackwhen. A recent Byrne/FF/Visionaries tpb volume reminded me of how they used to look. Oh well.

Bob Cobb sounds like a bit much, though. ...also, to my pervy mind, it sounds a lil porn-ish.

[Paradox]

Ha! Found a pic...with someone's, um, editorial comment photomanipped in. :evilsmile And it turns out Bob Cobb was Pa Kent's lameass idea.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8296/bobcobb020pz.gif

Oh, and the "you think that's bad" was supposed to be about "Bob Cobb", but I originally didn't comment on the first part, and went back and put it in, causing mass confusion, dogs and cats living together...your basic chaos. :)

[west3man]

Ha! Found a pic...with someone's, um, editorial comment photomanipped in. :evilsmile And it turns out Bob Cobb was Pa Kent's lameass idea.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8296/bobcobb020pz.gif

Oh, and the "you think that's bad" was supposed to be about "Bob Cobb", but I originally didn't comment on the first part, and went back and put it in, causing mass confusion, dogs and cats living together...your basic chaos. :)
You'll never believe this, but that's the SAME blazer Ben (or was it Reed) was wearing in that issue of FF! Weird.

[Paradox]

It's like they thought "Hmmm...this coat needs a pattern. I know! ARCHIE'S HAIR!" :p

[west3man]

It's like they thought "Hmmm...this coat needs a pattern. I know! ARCHIE'S HAIR!" :p
That is too. damned. funny.