Hillary Clinton attacks violent video games

[Rob Imes]

Found this interesting:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8573139

Some highlights:

On Thursday, Clinton urged the Federal Trade Commission to launch an investigation of a video game called “Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.”

...The senator’s (proposed) legislation would impose a $5,000 penalty on retailers who sell to underage consumers video games that are rated “M” (for mature) or “AO” (adults only) by the Entertainment Software Rating Board, an industry group.

She portrayed video games as part of what she called “this overwhelming culture” which assaults children and teenagers with depraved images of violence and sex. She accused violent and pornographic video game makers of “stealing the innocence of our children.”

What do you think? Will this help her or hurt her politically?

[Shadow Crawler]

So the current investigation of San Andreas isn't enough already?

[BlairH]

Well, I'm not going to vote for Hilary now.
Not that I was going to considering I'm both Conservative and NOT American.

It's not her p;ace to interfere in the video games industry

[Valmore]

Eh. I don't think it'll help or hurt.

[Fenris]

What do you think? Will this help her or hurt her politically?

That is really interesting!

Politically, it's way too soon to tell. It depends on what else she does with this sort of issue. She could make a real play for women on the social right, casting herself as a committed feminist and a pro-family candidate, all at once.


On the other hand, it might not matter at all. Tipper Gore's campaign against obscene music in the 1980s caused a furor, but I don't know of any Democrats who voted against her husband because of it. It's very early yet.

[MJC]

*sigh*

If she runs in 2008 I'm going to HATE having to vote for her.

[Mike Smash!]

That is really interesting!

Politically, it's way too soon to tell. It depends on what else she does with this sort of issue. She could make a real play for women on the social right, casting herself as a committed feminist and a pro-family candidate, all at once.


On the other hand, it might not matter at all. Tipper Gore's campaign against obscene music in the 1980s caused a furor, but I don't know of any Democrats who voted against her husband because of it. It's very early yet.I was just about to mention Tipper (or Joe Lieberman).

Though, I know a few Dems who voted for Ralph Nader because of Tipper and Joe's attack on "sinful" entertainment. A centrist friend of mine voted for Bush in 2000 (and now regrets it) because of Lieberman and Tipper's stance on censorship.

It's a political football for Hillary to show how upright and moral she is, but the whole thing is really just bullshit through and through.

And I think it's very possible to be feminist and pro-family all at once. It's just that people prefer it to be genuine.

[Mike Smash!]

*sigh*

If she runs in 2008 I'm going to HATE having to vote for her.Why, is she blackmailing you?

If not, you don't have to vote for her. There is life beyond Coke and Pepsi, my friend.

And in all but 11 states, the winner in a presidential race is a given so you don't have to be afraid of the so-called "spoiler effect".

Personally, I can think of painful dental procedures that I would choose over voting for Hillary Clinton.

[bushboy]

#1: The majority of games is not like this, so stop attacking them
#2: They should be yelling at the parents for buying the games in the first place.

[Adam Crocker]

It's a political football for Hillary to show how upright and moral she is, but the whole thing is really just bullshit through and through.

Damn straight. There's not much to separate it from similar posturing by politicians, whereas the Parents Music Resource Center wasn't the work of a bunch of politicians, but the tight-assed wives of some politicians who genuinely seemed to believe that less than wholesome rock music was bringing society's downfall.

[Super Samurai]

#1: The majority of games is not like this, so stop attacking them
#2: They should be yelling at the parents for buying the games in the first place.

This is what Hilary and other politicians should realize, dont blame the company for making violent games, blame the irresponsible parents who buy these games for their kids.

[Johnny Morningstar]

Tell me about it.

A former co-worker bought Vice City for her 10-year-old daughter.

I offered to buy her child her first porno when she turns 15.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

wait... so Hillary Clinton proposes that retailers take responsibility for what they're selling to minors?

You can't buy porn when you're 12, or guns, so why should you be able to buy a game designed and targetted at adults? You can't buy alcohol unless you're 21 in the USA.

What exactly is the big deal here? What did she say that's so goddamn controversial that it'll be so destructive that it will undo all of society?

[Rabid Trekkie]

Found this interesting:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8573139

Some highlights:

On Thursday, Clinton urged the Federal Trade Commission to launch an investigation of a video game called “Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.”

...The senator’s (proposed) legislation would impose a $5,000 penalty on retailers who sell to underage consumers video games that are rated “M” (for mature) or “AO” (adults only) by the Entertainment Software Rating Board, an industry group.

She portrayed video games as part of what she called “this overwhelming culture” which assaults children and teenagers with depraved images of violence and sex. She accused violent and pornographic video game makers of “stealing the innocence of our children.”

What do you think? Will this help her or hurt her politically?

If she actually follows up on this it could help her. Oh sure the whole thing is bull and could end up getting a store in trouble because the parent gives a game to a kid and when asked the kid says "I got this from the Vengeful and Violent Video Game store!" but it is the kind of bull that grabs at mom's who catch the news on shows like Good Morning America or the Early Show. The last time this came up my mom even asked to make sure about my games. I had to reassure her that Splinter Cell didn't have any blood and that they were only terrorists anyway.

Why can't parents just actually look at the ratings on the games? Sometimes I think we need to round these people up and teach them to read again.

[Rabid Trekkie]

wait... so Hillary Clinton proposes that retailers take responsibility for what they're selling to minors?

You can't buy porn when you're 12, or guns, so why should you be able to buy a game designed and targetted at adults? You can't buy alcohol unless you're 21 in the USA.

What exactly is the big deal here? What did she say that's so goddamn controversial that it'll be so destructive that it will undo all of society?

The thing is all it will do is take the retailers to task for something they don't do anyway. More than once at my local gamestop I've seen a kid walk up to the counter with something that was rated 'M' and the guy behind the desk told the kid no. The kid goes and graps his parent and the parent buys it for the brat. I saw a guy buy one of the Grand Theft Auto games for a kid who couldn't have been more than 7. But for some reason it is the stores that get blamed.

Does that seem fair to you?

[thehod]

...The senator’s (proposed) legislation would impose a $5,000 penalty on retailers who sell to underage consumers video games that are rated “M” (for mature) or “AO” (adults only) by the Entertainment Software Rating Board, an industry group.

Agreed. The store has a responsibility not to sell to minors. That won't stop parents buying it for their kids though.

She portrayed video games as part of what she called “this overwhelming culture” which assaults children and teenagers with depraved images of violence and sex. She accused violent and pornographic video game makers of “stealing the innocence of our children.”

Bullshit, and a direct contridiction of the above point.
These are video games for adults. Kids shouldn't be near them to have their innocence "stolen".

I would ask if Hillary if she intends to go after films that are rated 18, the same as the GTA games. One's a film, the others a game, both for adults.

How about books with mature themes?
Comics?
TV shows?
Music?
What should be good for the goose, has to be good for the gander.

Politically though, she'll probably benefit as their are millions of ignorant parents out their who assume that video games = kids.

[bushboy]

If she attacks things that should not be sold to kids in general, You can say goodbye to the US economy.

[Sheldon]

I see nothing wrong with enforcing the ratings....Here in Nova Scotia its illegal to see a mature rated video game to anyone under 18.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

The thing is all it will do is take the retailers to task for something they don't do anyway. More than once at my local gamestop I've seen a kid walk up to the counter with something that was rated 'M' and the guy behind the desk told the kid no. The kid goes and graps his parent and the parent buys it for the brat. I saw a guy buy one of the Grand Theft Auto games for a kid who couldn't have been more than 7. But for some reason it is the stores that get blamed.

Does that seem fair to you?

Are those stores targeted?

No.

Hillary is bitching about stores which DO sell adult games to children.

And I think she's right. Stores shouldn't sell such games to minors, if they do, they should receive a fine. They should take responsibility, and deny children direct access to such games.

Parents buying it for their children... then the store cannot be blamed and goes off free.

The stores getting blamed for what parents buy... not really their problem, I take it they have cameras set up in the store, aimed at the place where the transactions are made. They have evidence that they did nothing wrong.

That's another reason for why there's a camera there, so you have your evidence when people accuse you.

But saying that you shouldn't fine stores who DO sell those games to children, you're basically giving them a free ride to sell to children. There are no consequences for them attached to selling those things to minors.

By your logic... what about porn, alcohol and guns?

Minors can get adults to buy them for them? Should those restrictions and fines be lifted as well? Motto being that they get blamed either way if a kid gets a hold of a product that they aren't allowed to own?

[Rabid Trekkie]

Are those stores targeted?

No.

Hillary is bitching about stores which DO sell adult games to children.

And I think she's right. Stores shouldn't sell such games to minors, if they do, they should receive a fine. They should take responsibility, and deny children direct access to such games.

Parents buying it for their children... then the store cannot be blamed and goes off free.

The stores getting blamed for what parents buy... not really their problem, I take it they have cameras set up in the store, aimed at the place where the transactions are made. They have evidence that they did nothing wrong.

That's another reason for why there's a camera there, so you have your evidence when people accuse you.

But saying that you shouldn't fine stores who DO sell those games to children, you're basically giving them a free ride to sell to children. There are no consequences for them attached to selling those things to minors.

By your logic... what about porn, alcohol and guns?

Minors can get adults to buy them for them? Should those restrictions and fines be lifted as well? Motto being that they get blamed either way if a kid gets a hold of a product that they aren't allowed to own?

I haven't heard about any store selling these games to minors. Everytime it comes up on the news here it isn't about stores selling games but about kids buying the games.

And yeah the store is safe from courts, but all the moms in the area aren't going to care about that.

If an adult buys porn , alcohol, or guns from a place and then gives those things to minors then the store should not be blamed. However (and this is from what I hear as I have not seen the documentary) the Walmart that sold the guns to an adult who later gave them to the kids who went on the rampage at Columbine is the one that got the blame.

And I never said that any store that sold to a minor shouldn't be punished. The thing is all of those laws are already in place. Sort of like how a minor can't buy a rated R movie from Best Buy.

The thing is all this is going to do is make it even harder for the stores to conduct their normal business.

[Donald M.]

One of the issues that seems to be central to Hillary's announcement of this legislation is recent reports that explicit sexual content can be unlocked in the PC version of the game using a fan-created patch.

This is news? Apparently Hillary has never heard of "Nude Patches."

Seriously, I think every 3D PC game with in the last 10 years has had a patch to turn female characters nude. This is less a symptom of the depravity of video games than of the immaturity of many adolescent (or emotionallystunted) male gamers who have way too much time on their hands.

I'll never understand this phenomenon. You have access to an entire internet full of porn and you want to look at Lara Croft's boobs?

*slaps forehead*


Of course, if kids have access to the internet they probably downloaded the game anyway, something Hillary's legislation can't touch. Heh.

[thehod]

One of the issues that seems to be central to Hillary's announcement of this legislation is recent reports that explicit sexual content can be unlocked in the PC version of the game using a fan-created patch.

This is news? Apparently Hillary has never heard of "Nude Patches."

Seriously, I think every 3D PC game with in the last 10 years has had a patch to turn female characters nude. This is less a symptom of the depravity of video games than of the immaturity of many adolescent (or emotionallystunted) male gamers who have way too much time on their hands.

I'll never understand this phenomenon. You have access to an entire internet full of porn and you want to look at Lara Croft's boobs?

*slaps forehead*


Of course, if kids have access to the internet they probably downloaded the game anyway, something Hillary's legislation can't touch. Heh.

You mean GTA has hidden sex in it??!! :eek:

Up until we knew about that, this mass murdering, crime committing, car wrecking, prostitute beating title was fine for our little darlings, but if its got sex in it, then we must ban it, and all scrub our eyes with steel wool until the images go away.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I haven't heard about any store selling these games to minors. Everytime it comes up on the news here it isn't about stores selling games but about kids buying the games.

And yeah the store is safe from courts, but all the moms in the area aren't going to care about that.

If an adult buys porn , alcohol, or guns from a place and then gives those things to minors then the store should not be blamed. However (and this is from what I hear as I have not seen the documentary) the Walmart that sold the guns to an adult who later gave them to the kids who went on the rampage at Columbine is the one that got the blame.

But why blame Hillary then for saying something that you basically agree with, because the public is made up of a bunch of inbreds who can't think straight?

You seem to be doing the same thing you're accusing others of here, laying the blame with the wrong person.

You're blaming Hillary for the stupidty of others.

And I never said that any store that sold to a minor shouldn't be punished. The thing is all of those laws are already in place. Sort of like how a minor can't buy a rated R movie from Best Buy.

The thing is all this is going to do is make it even harder for the stores to conduct their normal business.

So what is she saying that's so controversial, if she's just repeating what's already law?

So how is that going to make business as usual harder to conduct? Hillary is just repeating something that is already there. She's reinventing the wheel so to speak, but you don't seem to complain about a redundant statement aimed at winning over a few votes, you seem to complain about the message she's sending, which, as you said so yourself, is already out there and fact?

[Mike Smash!]

wait... so Hillary Clinton proposes that retailers take responsibility for what they're selling to minors?

You can't buy porn when you're 12, or guns, so why should you be able to buy a game designed and targetted at adults? You can't buy alcohol unless you're 21 in the USA.

What exactly is the big deal here? What did she say that's so goddamn controversial that it'll be so destructive that it will undo all of society?Because what she's saying always leads to talk of censorship and it's really just her hyping herself to parents groups who want to child-proof the world.

And it's only the retailor's responsibility for about 30 seconds, but more children get their hands on this game through stupid parents who don't pay attention to what they're giving kids, so they'd like to shift the parenting burden to retailors and television to eliminate "bad stuff" so they can continue to be neglectful and poor parents safely.

Fuck that.

GTA wasn't made for children any more than Quentin Tarantino movies or PREACHER are and these things always lead to opportunistic and whorish "we have to protect the children" bitching from politicians in both major parties and parent's groups like the PTC. And the line is blurred and many of these groups fight to censor these games while acting as if all video games (or comics...etc) are for kids.

[Nate C.]

Because what she's saying always leads to talk of censorship and it's really just her hyping herself to parents groups who want to child-proof the world.

Fuck that.



I wouldn't mind keeping large portions of the world child-proof.

I wish I could let my ten year old enjoy discussing comic books on a comic book forum.

But he might come across a Hulk Moderator he admired, check out other posts by that moderator and find something like this.

(something to think about Mike. There's a place for everything, including vulgarity and porn. video games and CBR are debatable places for it)

[Mike Smash!]

I wouldn't mind keeping large portions of the world child-proof.

I wish I could let my ten year old enjoy discussing comic books on a comic book forum.

But he might come across a Hulk Moderator he admired, check out other posts by that moderator and find something like this.

(something to think about Mike. There's a place for everything, including vulgarity and porn. video games and CBR are debatable places for it)At ten years old, I heard worse vulgarity than that, Nate. So please, don't throw this on my shoulders.

Should certain things be child-safe? Absolutely. But there are groups like the PTC and others who want everyone to be that safe, so that they don't have to monitor what their kids watch.

[meegs654]

I can only speak for myself in this matter. I got my first video game system the SNES with Mortal Komat when I was 6. As I progressed with video games and comic books they told me the difference between reality and fantasy. Every time some polotician goes on a witch hunt of somthing that could be harmful to children they always neglect one thing, the parents. When ever I bought my first Mature game for the playstation(Duke Nukem) my mom watched me play it, and decided that I shouldn't be playing it yet.(I was 8-9 at this time) Instead of going back to EB and bitching that they sold me a M video game she took it away and put it up, and gave me the option of selling it or waiting until I was older, of course I sold it and got somthing else.
So I guess all I am saying is if people took responibility for their own actions we wouldn't have any movie, music, video game, comic book scapegoats that are here now.

She is starting to sound alot like Weatherm(sp?) who attacked comics in the 50s and ultimately shut down EC comics because "they led to the deliquancy of youths" which he wrote a book on that I believe is called Seduction of the Innocent. Check it out for some really perverse views on comics.

[Mike Pothier]

wait... so Hillary Clinton proposes that retailers take responsibility for what they're selling to minors?

You can't buy porn when you're 12, or guns, so why should you be able to buy a game designed and targetted at adults? You can't buy alcohol unless you're 21 in the USA.

What exactly is the big deal here? What did she say that's so goddamn controversial that it'll be so destructive that it will undo all of society?

I think its the fact that Hilary is being an obvious hypocrite, like any politician. She doesn't really care about videogames, violent or not. She only cares about getting the votes of soccer moms who are too lazy to parent their kids and want society to do their job for them.

The retailers aren't to blame here. Its the parents letting their kids buy games they shouldn't buy.

[Tobias March]

What do you think? Will this help her or hurt her politically?

She probably thinks it advantageous to give some show of moral outrage from a Democrat. Baby steps, baby steps - I don't see any real debate between left and right in the States so it probably helps to get righteously indignant about a fantasy world computer game.

If anything the obvious piggyback on the seperate (and far more interesting) GTA case may work against her, but 'computer game porn'.....safe issue.

[LtMarvel]

#1: The majority of games is not like this, so stop attacking them
#2: They should be yelling at the parents for buying the games in the first place.
Not this game. If the hidden scenes are indeed part of the game, this game committed consumer fraud in order to get itself into stores and homes. This game should be immediately recalled and removed from all store shelves.

Why?

Because this game is rated "M" If the hidden scenes would make it rated "AO", then the stores were scammed, and the parents were scammed.

[Spackling Compound]

I think its the fact that Hilary is being an obvious hypocrite, like any politician. She doesn't really care about videogames, violent or not. She only cares about getting the votes of soccer moms who are too lazy to parent their kids and want society to do their job for them.

The retailers aren't to blame here. Its the parents letting their kids buy games they shouldn't buy.
Soccer moms, indeed.

I went to the movies the other day. In front of me in line were two girls, about the age of 7, dressed in short dresses, high heeled flip flops, makeup and halter tops. Each of them had a cell phone and they weren't with an adult. They got to the cashier and asked for two tickets to "War of the Worlds". The girl at the counter said, "I can't let you in. You're too young. Then looked at me and said, 'Are you with them?'" I told her "no". The check out girl rolled her eyes, and told the girls again they get tickets. They both got on their cell phones. One said, "My mother left us here for a movie and she'll deal with you herself." The check out girl said, "You can go in."

Just like that.

As they passed the concessions, one said, "Let's just wait til later. We'll walk to the Pizza Hut and see who's there."

[BoosterBronze]

A question for my brethren here.
I don't play games like GTA, the content fucking disgusts me. But I understand that the gameplay is awesome.
If a game like GTA didn't have the profanity, mass murder, the whore fucking and beating, and the basic nose-thumbing at decency, would they still be as fun? Would they still be succesful, or do we really like them because they let us play out these sociopathic fantasies?

[Typo Lad]

The thing is all it will do is take the retailers to task for something they don't do anyway. More than once at my local gamestop I've seen a kid walk up to the counter with something that was rated 'M' and the guy behind the desk told the kid no. The kid goes and graps his parent and the parent buys it for the brat. I saw a guy buy one of the Grand Theft Auto games for a kid who couldn't have been more than 7. But for some reason it is the stores that get blamed.

Well, then they're selling it to the parent, and it's the paren't fault and no foul on the retailer.

[Typo Lad]

At ten years old, I heard worse vulgarity than that, Nate. So please, don't throw this on my shoulders.

That's defining deviency down, sir!

Because people had the poor manners to curse in front of YOU as a youngster, it is ergo okay for you to?

I'm shocked to hear you use such an arguement.

As for my own opinions, I can agree with the first part, but not the second. If she had said "This game isn't for children and is marked accordingly and there needs to be a way to enforce that," well, I could get behind that.

Once she starts attacking video game culture... no, sorry.

Video games for adults should not be attacked.

People who sell them to minors? As much fair game as anyone who would give something innapropriate to a minor.

And yes, that includes a parent who gives it to their child.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hillary Is sadly being short sighted as with being a democrat , Its become natural. She's targeting kids who buy video games but the Industry has aged and now Its the 18-34 kids who buy games. Imagine seeing her on TV saying that games like this should be banned.

Imagine them all watching and getting angry..." That b-tch Is runnin In 2008 ! I'm so gonna vote Republican when she runs. "


Censership sucks and Its part of the reason why I voted against Al Gore. I didn't want Lieberman In a position of power with his PTC ties and thier views that the Government should make our decision for us.

I sad to say won't vote for Hillary eithor.

[Typo Lad]

I went to the movies the other day. In front of me in line were two girls, about the age of 7, dressed in short dresses, high heeled flip flops, makeup and halter tops.

GHAAAAAAA.

"I see you've noticed our 'Little Hooker' line of clothing! It's very popular."

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY.

I'm sorry, but any parent who buys their kids this crap is an IDIOT.

Did you know they make BIKINI CUT TODDLER BRIEFS?

Each of them had a cell phone and they weren't with an adult.

Okay, are you SURE they were "7"? I mean, forgetting that they were whored up, what parent let's their kids walk around unattended in this day and age?

"My mother left us here for a movie and she'll deal with you herself."

Ah, THAT kind of parent.

Idiots.

The check out girl said, "You can go in."

Just like that.

I'm sorry, but that's wrong.

She should have said "and she can deal with the manager. I can lose my job if you see this movie."

The clerk was at fault for giving in to these little brats.

As they passed the concessions, one said, "Let's just wait til later. We'll walk to the Pizza Hut and see who's there."

I don't get it?

[Tobias March]

Hillary Is sadly being short sighted as with being a democrat , Its become natural. She's targeting kids who buy video games but the Industry has aged and now Its the 18-34 kids who buy games. Imagine seeing her on TV saying that games like this should be banned.

Imagine them all watching and getting angry..." That b-tch Is runnin In 2008 ! I'm so gonna vote Republican when she runs. "


Censership sucks and Its part of the reason why I voted against Al Gore. I didn't want Lieberman In a position of power with his PTC ties and thier views that the Government should make our decision for us.

I sad to say won't vote for Hillary eithor.


It doesn't have to reflect the reality of whether children or adults are in the majority playing games - what matters is what the electorate you are aiming for perceive to be the truth. And given that comics, games and much else are still presumed to be the province of children by the majority...

[bushboy]

This oughta be shocking. The first game I ever played was at 3yrs. old and it was either Quake or DOOM. I have turned out completely fine. In fact, I am considered the most mature among my peers. Sometimes it isnt the ratings that you must look at , but you must also know your child well enough to know what they can handle.

[Mike Smash!]

That's defining deviency down, sir!

Because people had the poor manners to curse in front of YOU as a youngster, it is ergo okay for you to?

I'm shocked to hear you use such an arguement.I'm not excusing it, but I have the right to use profanity in a spot that is overwhelmingly frequented by adults.

The youngest regular on the Comm board that I know is 17. And I don't use this language on the Hulk board. Different playground, different rules.

But to blame me for delinquence is no different than blaming video games for delinquence.

And besides, there are things on this board that are way beyond me using the "F"-word. Take any one of the numerous, "I am sooo drunk/high" or "I got laid last night" threads that pop up every so often.

As for my own opinions, I can agree with the first part, but not the second. If she had said "This game isn't for children and is marked accordingly and there needs to be a way to enforce that," well, I could get behind that.

Once she starts attacking video game culture... no, sorry.

Video games for adults should not be attacked.But it's hard to get people riled up to send you money or votes when you used nuanced remarks.

It's easier to say that people are aiming these games/movies/music at kids (a lie) and blow it out of proportion. The PTC and the rest of the "we have to save the children" posse have their spotlight for a week or two.

People who sell them to minors? As much fair game as anyone who would give something innapropriate to a minor.

And yes, that includes a parent who gives it to their child.I completely agree.

[Typo Lad]

Hillary Is sadly being short sighted as with being a democrat , Its become natural.

1) Thanks for tarring every Democrat with the same brush.

She's targeting kids who buy video games

I'm sorry, but no. She is targetting game stores that sell mature games to minors. Frankly, I have no issue with that part.

but the Industry has aged and now Its the 18-34 kids who buy games.

Again, that's no the issue she's dealing with here. You're putting words in her mouth (and why anyone would want to put anythign in a Clinton is beyond me).

She's not saying adults shoul;dn't be able to buy these games.

She's saying adults shouldn't be able to sell them to kids.

Imagine seeing her on TV saying that games like this should be banned.

I won't, because that's not what she's saying.

Censership sucks and Its part of the reason why I voted against Al Gore. I didn't want Lieberman In a position of power with his PTC ties and thier views that the Government should make our decision for us.

That's amusing.

You know what the job of the VP is?

He's standby equipment.

His job is to wait for a tie in the Senate or for the President to die. That's basically it.

I don't agree with all of Lieberman's views - I think he *is* right that society accepts way too much violence in our entertainment. I don't agree on how he suggests we deal with that.

However, I would rather have a VP who was in bed with the PTC than one in bed with Halliburton.

I sad to say won't vote for Hillary eithor.

I'm not.

Even though I support her in this, I think the woman is a vile, evil opportinist who has no business being my Senator. She's not a New Yorker and never will be. She's a damn carpetbagger and frankly, I'd just about vote for anyone over her.

...

I just realzied, I live in Jersey now.

YAHOO!

The witch is not my Senator!

Who...are... my Senators?

[Typo Lad]

This oughta be shocking. The first game I ever played was at 3yrs. old and it was either Quake or DOOM. I have turned out completely fine. In fact, I am considered the most mature among my peers. Sometimes it isnt the ratings that you must look at , but you must also know your child well enough to know what they can handle.

I agree 100%

However, that would require parents to parent. Parenting is a lost art. That's why when Mrs. Clinton makes the second part of her statement, wherin she essentailly blames video games for kids being rotten, they eat it up.

Better to say that Super Smash Brothers made your child a thug than your own lack of abilities.

[Mike Smash!]

Hillary Is sadly being short sighted as with being a democrat , Its become natural. She's targeting kids who buy video games but the Industry has aged and now Its the 18-34 kids who buy games. Imagine seeing her on TV saying that games like this should be banned.

Imagine them all watching and getting angry..." That b-tch Is runnin In 2008 ! I'm so gonna vote Republican when she runs. "This is assuming that they actually vote and that they'd vote Republican. As much as I hated Lieberman's stance on the issue, I knew that most of the parents groups were very much conservative.

With the Dems, it's basically the same response they give the death penalty. They're insecure about people calling them wimpy or soft on crime or immoral, so they take up the banner of censorship with embarrassing zeal.

Censership sucks and Its part of the reason why I voted against Al Gore. I didn't want Lieberman In a position of power with his PTC ties and thier views that the Government should make our decision for us.Of course, most of the PTC was overwhelmingly Republican and tied to the religious right.

The Dems just play in their backyard out of insecurity and for cynical political reasons. The Republicans largely due the same, but they mean it a little more than the Dems do.

I sad to say won't vote for Hillary eithor.

Nor will I. I won't vote for anyone with her sort of record or anyone who will raise whatever banner they think it takes to win votes, no matter how reprehensible it is.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It doesn't have to reflect the reality of whether children or adults are in the majority playing games - what matters is what the electorate you are aiming for perceive to be the truth. And given that comics, games and much else are still presumed to be the province of children by the majority...


Whats she's aiming for she won't get. You tell a Junoir High school kid that Hillary Clinton has decided to ban all GTA,FInal Fantasy , and Hitman games because they promote voilence,sex and what not. Those same kids now will be voting age In 2008.

Plus the Republicans can spin It like this: " Were worried about the Economy and your worried about kids playing Grand Theft Auto ? "


The Democrats should hope n pray Obama runs In 2008. Beg him to run and put It all behind him. Thus far he hasn't came across as a fool on TV.


Its up to parents to moniter kids and say what they can or can't do. Not Hillary Clinton or Lieberman.

[Mike Smash!]

Whats she's aiming for she won't get. You tell a Junoir High school kid that Hillary Clinton has decided to ban all GTA,FInal Fantasy , and Hitman games because they promote voilence,sex and what not. Those same kids now will be voting age In 2008.

Plus the Republicans can spin It like this: " Were worried about the Economy and your worried about kids playing Grand Theft Auto ? "

But the Republicans won't take that stance. If anything, they'll likely be a big part of the charge. The ones that disagree will just sit down and shut up.


The Democrats should hope n pray Obama runs In 2008. Beg him to run and put It all behind him. Thus far he hasn't came across as a fool on TV.Not likely and if he runs, he'll do it not even having completed a single term as Senator. That's the sort of thing that says "stepping stone" and people don't react well to that.

That and I think if Obama wins the nomination that Obama the candidate will be a very different person that Obama the Senator. He's already gone from anti-war to pro-war in the short time he's been in office.

Generally speaking, the farthest a progressive can go in federal office is Congressman (though Wellstone is an exception). After that, you have to join the old boy's club and it's time to get on board or lose your next primary.

And I highly doubt this would drive kids to vote Republican -- who are on the same side of this issue as Hillary, for the most part.

It would either get them to vote third party, cast a "hold your nose" vote for the candidate they hate the least or not vote at all.

Usually, its the last option that wins out.

[Typo Lad]

I'm not excusing it, but I have the right to use profanity in a spot that is overwhelmingly frequented by adults.

What if one of those adults states that he is offended by said language?

I'm no prince when it comes to language, but I'm working on it.

The simple fact is, cursing is rude no matter what age you are.

The youngest regular on the Comm board that I know is 17. And I don't use this language on the Hulk board. Different playground, different rules.

Again, what if a 27 year old poster is offended by the language?

But to blame me for delinquence is no different than blaming video games for delinquence.

Sir, I did not say that and you know that.

I said that an attitude similar to the one which you took in this instance was partially responsable for societies lapses.

In fact, it was not I who suggested it, but Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

And besides, there are things on this board that are way beyond me using the "F"-word. Take any one of the numerous, "I am sooo drunk/high" or "I got laid last night" threads that pop up every so often.

Again my good man, you are Defining Deviancy Down. "Other people here do/have done worse things" is simply an unacceptible excuse in polite society.

And for the record, when I see a thread with that title, I can ignore it. When I am in a thread about politics or somesuch, I cannot.

That is why, for the longest time, I did not go into Rita's.

But it's hard to get people riled up to send you money or votes when you used nuanced remarks.

Agreed. And if there's anything a Clinton is good at, it is selling out principles for money.

It's easier to say that people are aiming these games/movies/music at kids (a lie) and blow it out of proportion.

You know what disturbs me?

We're so busy pointing fingers at the games/music/movie industries, which aim the product at set demographics, but we completely ignore the clothing industry.

I'm serious.

Why are there bikini cut panties in Tot's size?

Why are there halter tops for girls who are not only below the age of concent, but below the age of potty training?

Why do we sexualize our children?

And beyond that, we do parents let this happen.

If parents got off their rear-ends and parented, we wouldn't NEED goverment censorship. This argument would cease to be. Because no-one would be buying thongs for 12 year olds, so people would stop making them.

The PTC and the rest of the "we have to save the children" posse have their spotlight for a week or two.

Again, the children DO need saving.

From their parents.

I completely agree.

That's because I'm brilliant, you know.

[Typo Lad]

It would either get them to vote third party, cast a "hold your nose" vote for the candidate they hate the least or not vote at all.

Usually, its the last option that wins out.

Heck, I still say that's how Mrs. Clinton won NY. She's bad. VERY bad... but her Republican opponent was even worse.

What's sad is i don't even know what 3rd parties were running anymore.

I may actually have voted 3rd party on that one though. I know I didn't vote for her, and I'm scared by the thought that I voted Republican.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

1) Thanks for tarring every Democrat with the same brush.

It irks me. They can win the damn Election If they ever decide to get thier heads outta thier asses and stop this foolishness. I voted for Kerry and jesus...the man had It all !


I'm sorry, but no. She is targetting game stores that sell mature games to minors. Frankly, I have no issue with that part.

Again...this was why a rating system was made and why Parents make the choices. Not Hillary Clinton , Senator from New York. Outta fun I'd love to see some people write her: " Dear Hillary , my 10 yearold son wants to play GTA. Should I let him ? "


Again, that's no the issue she's dealing with here. You're putting words in her mouth (and why anyone would want to put anythign in a Clinton is beyond me).

Had hopes she could win a Presidential Election but she's pretty much proved she's gonna screw that up. Guess were gonna get 12 years of Republican leadership. Hillary could always blame GTA some more.

She's not saying adults shoul;dn't be able to buy these games.

She's saying adults shouldn't be able to sell them to kids.



I won't, because that's not what she's saying.

Again...parents should be making these choices for thier children. Theres a rating on the game! Why go to the Press and do this ? Guess the attention she's craving.


That's amusing.

You know what the job of the VP is?

He's standby equipment.

His job is to wait for a tie in the Senate or for the President to die. That's basically it.

I don't agree with all of Lieberman's views - I think he *is* right that society accepts way too much violence in our entertainment. I don't agree on how he suggests we deal with that.

However, I would rather have a VP who was in bed with the PTC than one in bed with Halliburton.

I never cared for censership and never saw Cheney's ties to Halliburton then. Hell as many heart problems the man had I doubted he'd last long as VP. But the Vice President can be vocal and make the news and thats why I feared Lieberman being In there.

John Stewart had a great topic last night. He was Interviewing a gentlemen last night and he said It best: " Look I'm not for Censership , but what can we do ? Society and Culture as a whole has become more edgier. Theres no stopping It. We can put up all the roadblocks but as a whole....you can't stop the culture.

Comes down to not having a politican decide what you should do as a parent. Rating system Is there for a reason.


I'm not.

Even though I support her in this, I think the woman is a vile, evil opportinist who has no business being my Senator. She's not a New Yorker and never will be. She's a damn carpetbagger and frankly, I'd just about vote for anyone over her.

...

I just realzied, I live in Jersey now.

YAHOO!

The witch is not my Senator!

Who...are... my Senators?


Do you want her as your President ? I know I don't.

[Mike Smash!]

What if one of those adults states that he is offended by said language?

I'm no prince when it comes to language, but I'm working on it.

The simple fact is, cursing is rude no matter what age you are. Yes, but it was my purpose to be rude.

Again, what if a 27 year old poster is offended by the language?Then it is his right to counter me with free speech of his own.

It's not my duty to go through life avoiding all opportunities to offend, because frankly, me being an Atheist will offend someone. My political beliefs will offend someone. My taste in movies will offend someone. My haircut will offend someone.

I certainly won't be purposely offensive or bigotted, but I'm not going to walk on eggshells, because that's an unwinable battle.

Sir, I did not say that and you know that.I wasn't talking about you, Morts. I was referring to the stance Nate took on me.

Again my good man, you are Defining Deviancy Down. "Other people here do/have done worse things" is simply an unacceptible excuse in polite society

I take full responsibility for my actions and words. What I won't do is take responsibility for other people being offended by those actions or words.

Agreed. And if there's anything a Clinton is good at, it is selling out principles for money.That we can agree on.

You know what disturbs me?

We're so busy pointing fingers at the games/music/movie industries, which aim the product at set demographics, but we completely ignore the clothing industry.

I'm serious.

Why are there bikini cut panties in Tot's size?

Why are there halter tops for girls who are not only below the age of concent, but below the age of potty training?

Why do we sexualize our children?

And beyond that, we do parents let this happen.

If parents got off their rear-ends and parented, we wouldn't NEED goverment censorship. This argument would cease to be. Because no-one would be buying thongs for 12 year olds, so people would stop making them.

I agree. Companies shouldn't be making those sorts of things for children and more importantly, parents shouldn't be BUYING them for kids.

Kids Tot's size can't afford them, so people are obviously buying them for kids.

I would bring back laws making it illegal to advertise directly to children, but I'm not going to call for laws banning people from manufacutring stupid products unless they cause real harm.

I call for parents to stop buying the damn things.

Again, the children DO need saving.

From their parents.Agreed.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

But the Republicans won't take that stance. If anything, they'll likely be a big part of the charge. The ones that disagree will just sit down and shut up.

They'd be complete genuis's by default. By not saying a word and letting her continue this , they'd be smart. Gotta give em props.

Not likely and if he runs, he'll do it not even having completed a single term as Senator. That's the sort of thing that says "stepping stone" and people don't react well to that.

They need someone young and who they can pull out and go: " He's the new face of the democratic party."

Its eithor that or get John Edwards again. They need someone young and hopefully from the South to get. They have to lure those bible belt states next year.



That and I think if Obama wins the nomination that Obama the candidate will be a very different person that Obama the Senator. He's already gone from anti-war to pro-war in the short time he's been in office.

Generally speaking, the farthest a progressive can go in federal office is Congressman (though Wellstone is an exception). After that, you have to join the old boy's club and it's time to get on board or lose your next primary.

And I highly doubt this would drive kids to vote Republican -- who are on the same side of this issue as Hillary, for the most part.

It would either get them to vote third party, cast a "hold your nose" vote for the candidate they hate the least or not vote at all.

Usually, its the last option that wins out.


Jessie The Body Ventura could run In a 3rd party In 2008. He's hinted at It. And Jessie has few positive words and feelings towards Hillary Clinton. ( Clinton called Jessie's Govenor run this: Its time we not elect a circus performer and elect a serious politican.)

[Mike Smash!]

Heck, I still say that's how Mrs. Clinton won NY. She's bad. VERY bad... but her Republican opponent was even worse.

What's sad is i don't even know what 3rd parties were running anymore.

I may actually have voted 3rd party on that one though. I know I didn't vote for her, and I'm scared by the thought that I voted Republican.You can probably find the results online somewhere...

Al Lewis (who is famous for playing "Grampa Munster" and has a history of activism) ran as the Green Party candidate in that race and got about 40,000 votes.

[Typo Lad]

It irks me. They can win the damn Election If they ever decide to get thier heads outta thier asses and stop this foolishness. I voted for Kerry and jesus...the man had It all !

If by "all" you mean a poorly run campaign and an innability to come of as having a spine, then yes, he had it all.


Again...this was why a rating system was made and why Parents make the choices.

Again, you're missing the point.

Parents aren't making the choices. The rating system is not being enforced by some store owners and they are selling mature games to minors.

We're not talking about some guy selling an issue of 'Death The High Cost of Living" to an off-duty adult cop who decided it's smut. We're talking about the guy at GameStop handing a copy of GTA to a 13 year old who's parents dropped him there so they can go to The Gap and get some Stretch pants.

Not Hillary Clinton , Senator from New York. Outta fun I'd love to see some people write her: " Dear Hillary , my 10 yearold son wants to play GTA. Should I let him ? "

Are you being deliberatly obtuse, sir?

And why can't I spell?

[quote] Had hopes she could win a Presidential Election

I've had nightmares like that.

but she's pretty much proved she's gonna screw that up. Guess were gonna get 12 years of Republican leadership. Hillary could always blame GTA some more.

As Mike points out, this is HARDLY the issue that's going to cost her the election. I expect to see the GOP rank and file get up and support her whole-heartedly,a nd then draft a bill of some kind that competes with hers and both are left to languish in limbo forever.

Meanwhile, Hillary gets her campaign donations from lazy parents who want the Goverment to protect their children, instead of walking into their room, throwing out innapropriate thing, and paddling their little bottoms.

Again...parents should be making these choices for thier children. Theres a rating on the game! Why go to the Press and do this ? Guess the attention she's craving.

The fact that Mrs. Clinton is an attention-craving junkie does not negate the fact that she is pointing out a valid problem. Although clothing it in idiotic rhetoric, children being able to purchase Mature games IS a problem and the rating system DOES need teeth, if only to protect it from self-rightious zelots who use the laxness as an excuse to tar the entire industry with one brush.

Like she does later.

Parents don't make choices anymore man, they should but they don't. DO you expect her to get up and say "Kids are playing violent video games. Why? Not because some idiot sold it to them, but becaue parents are idiots and don't see what their children are playing/listening to/watching. Parents need to take a proactive stand. The ratings system needs to be fine tuned, but nothing will do the job if parents won't do theirs."

Seriously, anyone who will get up and say that has my vote.

I never cared for censership and never saw Cheney's ties to Halliburton then.

Ah.

Have you been blind long?

Hell as many heart problems the man had I doubted he'd last long as VP. But the Vice President can be vocal and make the news and thats why I feared Lieberman being In there.

How many times did you see Gore make the news while Bill "Big Daddy" Clinton was in office?

John Stewart had a great topic last night. He was Interviewing a gentlemen last night and he said It best: " Look I'm not for Censership , but what can we do ? Society and Culture as a whole has become more edgier. Theres no stopping It. We can put up all the roadblocks but as a whole....you can't stop the culture.

No, but parents should be able to filter it for their children. The lazy parents won't and turn to the goverment and that's the exact button Mrs. Clinton is pushing.

But it doesn't mean she's entirely WRONG.

Comes down to not having a politican decide what you should do as a parent. Rating system Is there for a reason. [/qupte]

Shall I beat my head into the wall and point out that the case we're talking about is specifically where the rating system is not being enforced and stores are selling directly to minors?

If someone wants to buy Doom for their kid, that's great. I don't even have violent games on my Mac because I don't think that's appropriate for my kid. My kid, not everyone's.

But then... I actually parent.

[quote] Do you want her as your President ? I know I don't.

Then do what I'm doing:

Don't vote for her.

Right now I'm very interested in seeing what Mike's own party has to offer.

[Typo Lad]

Yes, but it was my purpose to be rude.

One can be rude without being crude. Trust me, I like to think I've raised obnoxiousness to an artform.

Then it is his right to counter me with free speech of his own.

Veddy good sah.

It's not my duty to go through life avoiding all opportunities to offend, because frankly, me being an Atheist will offend someone. My political beliefs will offend someone. My taste in movies will offend someone. My haircut will offend someone.

I certainly won't be purposely offensive or bigotted, but I'm not going to walk on eggshells, because that's an unwinable battle.

While I laud you for this, I remind you of the famous quote "The rights of your first end with my face." It's not about walking on eggshells. It is about the fact that for the most part, profanity is not considered a part of legitimate debate. It's a sign of lazyness, in my opinion, and shows that the debater feels he or she must shock the audiance or their opponents for some reason.

I wasn't talking about you, Morts. I was referring to the stance Nate took on me.

Ah. I see. Thank you for clarrifying.

I take full responsibility for my actions and words. What I won't do is take responsibility for other people being offended by those actions or words.

Honestly?

I was not "offended" by your choice to Define Deviancy Down as much as I was your choice to chose that line of reasoning in the first place.

Had you simply said the above in the first place, I would have had no problem with it.

That we can agree on.

The Clintons keep bringing us together, don't they?

I agree. Companies shouldn't be making those sorts of things for children and more importantly, parents shouldn't be BUYING them for kids.

Exactly.

We discovered it when we let her pick out a apair of panties that were marked "briefs". We took them home and they were bikini cut. We even checked the package over and over.

We did not have a reciept by that point, so we threw them out.

Kids Tot's size can't afford them, so people are obviously buying them for kids.

Honestly, one wonders what sort of people...

I would bring back laws making it illegal to advertise directly to children,

Sadly, that would never happen. The proposed law would be defeated by your opponents, who would be pocketing money from lobbiests.

Cynical, ain't I?

Still, can't hurt to try!

but I'm not going to call for laws banning people from manufacutring stupid products unless they cause real harm.

One could argue that secualizing pre-pubesent girls and boys does, in fact, cause real harm.

Of course, then we get into a debate about what denotes sexulization and the whole point gets lost. Which is why I think parents should be using their own judgment.

I just wish that they did.

I call for parents to stop buying the damn things.

You and me against the world, Mike.

Well, and Bill Cosby, but no-one's taking him seriously.

[Typo Lad]

Al Lewis (who is famous for playing "Grampa Munster" and has a history of activism) ran as the Green Party candidate in that race and got about 40,000 votes.

He did?

Hnh.

I wonder, did I vote for Grandpa Munster over Hillary?

I can't believe I'd vote for a vampire.

So I must have voted for Al.

[Mike Smash!]

Well, we're certain to run someone for both President and Hillary's Senate seat, Morts.

And Al Lewis rocks.... Not only because in his 80s, he's still sharp as a tack and was a part of the Civil Rights movement, but because when the Greens get a celebrity candidate, our are much more geek-centric than the two major parties.

Part of his race was fighting to have his name appear on the ballot as Al "Grampa" Lewis. In fact, most of his supporters and campaign workers refer to him as "Grampa".

[Taltos]

Found this interesting:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8573139

Some highlights:

On Thursday, Clinton urged the Federal Trade Commission to launch an investigation of a video game called “Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.”

...The senator’s (proposed) legislation would impose a $5,000 penalty on retailers who sell to underage consumers video games that are rated “M” (for mature) or “AO” (adults only) by the Entertainment Software Rating Board, an industry group.

She portrayed video games as part of what she called “this overwhelming culture” which assaults children and teenagers with depraved images of violence and sex. She accused violent and pornographic video game makers of “stealing the innocence of our children.”

What do you think? Will this help her or hurt her politically?
WOW, Before this she had my vote an '08 (my first time) but with this bullshit, I may go Republican.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If by "all" you mean a poorly run campaign and an innability to come of as having a spine, then yes, he had it all..

Meant to reply to that more....must have forgotten. I meant to say " He had It all handed to him to win at various times. "

Bush would f-ck up and something would come out and Kerry's boring demeaner cost him. He could debate a man down and bury em. But he had no charisma. He was Al Gore 2k4. People claimed Gore was robotic and never showed charisma and thats why he lost In 2000. Kerry was worse and could have actually won had he showed emotion.



Again, you're missing the point.

Parents aren't making the choices. The rating system is not being enforced by some store owners and they are selling mature games to minors.

So the solution Is...have the Government step In and fine each store for selling GTA to minors ?

We're not talking about some guy selling an issue of 'Death The High Cost of Living" to an off-duty adult cop who decided it's smut. We're talking about the guy at GameStop handing a copy of GTA to a 13 year old who's parents dropped him there so they can go to The Gap and get some Stretch pants.

Whats the differance ? You'll be shocked that 13 yearolds have seen more voilence on the network news and TV than anything. Them playing GTA Isn't a huge deal and a report In USA Today claimed that kids and teenagers today spend 6 hours Inside and nearlt 2 hours playing Video Games a day. Do you honestly feel they'd care about what they see.

So your 13 yearold comes back with GTA. Well you gonna tell him to take It back ? Sure you could but his friends all have that game and he could always borrow It. Some games are MA and the ratings should be enforced. I've seen kids get Into R Rated scary movies that shouldn't. Thats life...If ya set up roadblocks around something kids will find a way around.



I've had nightmares like that.



As Mike points out, this is HARDLY the issue that's going to cost her the election. I expect to see the GOP rank and file get up and support her whole-heartedly,a nd then draft a bill of some kind that competes with hers and both are left to languish in limbo forever.

I don't expect many to file behind her. I do think she'll draw support from some who see this as a feather to have under the cap. But the Industry has aged and were talking about Video Game companies putting out " Playboy : The Video Game " and " Penthouse" at some point next year.

Meanwhile, Hillary gets her campaign donations from lazy parents who want the Goverment to protect their children, instead of walking into their room, throwing out innapropriate thing, and paddling their little bottoms.

You paddle thier bottoms now and they can say your abusing them. My dad was always stern and when he said " No ! " and told us something..we listened. Parents need to be tough and stern. Not wantin thier children to run straight over them. I've seen kids today who run thier parents and did things I'd be scared sh-tless to do as a child.


The fact that Mrs. Clinton is an attention-craving junkie does not negate the fact that she is pointing out a valid problem. Although clothing it in idiotic rhetoric, children being able to purchase Mature games IS a problem and the rating system DOES need teeth, if only to protect it from self-rightious zelots who use the laxness as an excuse to tar the entire industry with one brush.

Then force the Video Game maker to fine the stores If they do sale the games to minors and parents are unhappy. Thus far I haven't seen many parents complaining about It at all. Just politicans wierdly...

Parents don't make choices anymore man, they should but they don't. DO you expect her to get up and say "Kids are playing violent video games. Why? Not because some idiot sold it to them, but becaue parents are idiots and don't see what their children are playing/listening to/watching. Parents need to take a proactive stand. The ratings system needs to be fine tuned, but nothing will do the job if parents won't do theirs."

Seriously, anyone who will get up and say that has my vote.

I'd vote for them as well. Odds are people don't wanna hear the tough straight talk. I wonder If we can get Bulworth ( Charactor from that Beatty Movie) to run. Guy was fun and straight forward.



Ah.

Have you been blind long?

In 2000 I didn't know of his connections. I had no clue til midlle 2002.


How many times did you see Gore make the news while Bill "Big Daddy" Clinton was in office?

Quite a few times. You'd barely see him because he wasn't as high profile as Clinton. Hell Clinton had people Impeachin him and Whitewater. No one saw him and could you see Gore while this all was happening ?



No, but parents should be able to filter it for their children. The lazy parents won't and turn to the goverment and that's the exact button Mrs. Clinton is pushing.

But it doesn't mean she's entirely WRONG.

[quote]Comes down to not having a politican decide what you should do as a parent. Rating system Is there for a reason. [/qupte]

Shall I beat my head into the wall and point out that the case we're talking about is specifically where the rating system is not being enforced and stores are selling directly to minors?

Again how will " The Government " do this ? Have a cop walk Into every GameStop and watch ? Theres no way they can. They have a system and Its beyond what they can do.

If someone wants to buy Doom for their kid, that's great. I don't even have violent games on my Mac because I don't think that's appropriate for my kid. My kid, not everyone's.

But then... I actually parent.

I played Doom and can I say...It scared me ? lol. I'm In my 20's and I was scared sh-tless. Again you get my props for being a good parent.


Then do what I'm doing:

Don't vote for her.

Right now I'm very interested in seeing what Mike's own party has to offer


I'm not...I don't think she'll make It past the primaries...I want to see who they get.

[Nate C.]

Commendable, Morts, and I appreciate it.

Your first post was almost word for word what my response to Mike was going to be, before I deleted it. (knowing in advance that it was a waste of time).

Mike, save the righteous indignation for more appropriate battles. I'm not here to get you. If mature games are being sold to minors, any decent parent organization has a duty to see that national attention comes to this issue.

I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with Hillary Clinton, as I did with Tipper Gore in the nineties. I say 2LiveCrew should have it's place in America, but that ought not be in sales to minors.

GTA has brought the same type of debate to video games and that doesn't make me a Puritan or a lover of Big Brother.

[GremlinClr]

Well this thread has drifted a little and I'm not sure that this has been said or not but I saw on a TV show last night that you can unlock the "hot coffee" minigame with a code on the PS2 version. So although Rockstar denied it was part of the original code and was just a PC mod, looks like the programmers actually put it in.

I don't know if they will actually get in trouble for this or just see it as free advertising.

[Mike Pothier]

Not this game. If the hidden scenes are indeed part of the game, this game committed consumer fraud in order to get itself into stores and homes. This game should be immediately recalled and removed from all store shelves.

Why?

Because this game is rated "M" If the hidden scenes would make it rated "AO", then the stores were scammed, and the parents were scammed.

As far as I know, the scene in question is either a Mod, or is in the game, but not accessible without hacking it. Meaning, its NOT part of the game that was intended to be played. You'd be surprised how much content is buried deep in any game but not used.

Either way, it was never marketed, never intended for public use. My theory is that somebody at Rockstar was intending on some sort of sexual minigame, but it was scrapped during production. The some 14 y.o. (I'm stereotyping, I know) hacked the computer game, found some remnants of it, and decided to make a full blown mod out of it.

Bottom line, I can't see how this is Rockstar fault, nor any retailer's fault.

[Winslow]

That is really interesting!

Politically, it's way too soon to tell. It depends on what else she does with this sort of issue. She could make a real play for women on the social right, casting herself as a committed feminist and a pro-family candidate, all at once.


On the other hand, it might not matter at all. Tipper Gore's campaign against obscene music in the 1980s caused a furor, but I don't know of any Democrats who voted against her husband because of it. It's very early yet.

I didn't read through the whole thread - but I think you're spot on.

I think she's trying to portray herself as a moderate, and is trying to court social conservatives from both parties.

[Paul McEnery]

That is really interesting!

Politically, it's way too soon to tell. It depends on what else she does with this sort of issue. She could make a real play for women on the social right, casting herself as a committed feminist and a pro-family candidate, all at once.


On the other hand, it might not matter at all. Tipper Gore's campaign against obscene music in the 1980s caused a furor, but I don't know of any Democrats who voted against her husband because of it. It's very early yet.
You don't?

I think it did a lot of damage to his image as a liberal, and kept people from the polls. I remember moaning through the entire election that it was a horrible Hobson's choice between a maternalist authoritarian and a paternalist nincompoop.

[Rob Imes]

When I started this thread, I was under two impressions which now seem to be in error:

1.) I thought this was a new direction for Hillary, looking for future votes by tackling an issue usually associated with social conservatives.

2.) I assumed that Hillary's interest was a calculated political move, but not genuine and heartfelt.

I now think I was wrong on both counts. I did a little more digging, checked out the Senator's official website, and noticed that she had criticized "Grand Theft Auto" by name back in March. You can read the speech here (http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=233740). The money quote, and it also functions as her reply to those posters who blame the parents for not policing their child's entertainment choices better:

"Parents worry that their children will not grow up with the same values that they did or that they believe in because of the overwhelming presence of the media telling them to buy this and that, or conveying negative messages filled with explicit sex content and violence. And parents who work long hours outside the home and single parents, whose time with their children is squeezed by economic pressures, are worried because they don't even know what their children are watching and listening to and playing. So what's a parent to do when at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, the children may be at home from school but the parents aren't home from work and they can turn on the TV and both on broadcast and cable stations see a lot of things which the parents wish they wouldn't or wish they were sitting there to try to mediate the meaning of for their children. And probably one of the biggest complaints I've heard is about some of the video games, particularly Grand Theft Auto, which has so many demeaning messages about women and so encourages violent imagination and activities and it scares parents. I mean, if your child, and in the case of the video games, it's still predominantly boys, but you know, they're playing a game that encourages them to have sex with prostitutes and then murder them, you know, that's kind of hard to digest and to figure out what to say, and even to understand how you can shield your particular child from a media environment where all their peers are doing this." (emphasis mine)

The fact that she again spoke out against GTA this week does show some follow-through, like it really does matter to her.

Also in March she joined with fellow Senators Joe Lieberman, Rick Santorum, and Sam Brownback to propose legislation providing $90 million (over 5 years) to investigate the effects (harmful effects, presumably) of media on children.

Hillary has long been an advocate for children (remember Marian Wright Edelman and the Children's Defense Fund?) and I think this explains her interest in this issue. She's not cynically trying to steal an issue from the Republicans (as I had initially assumed). I believe that she genuinely cares about how children are raised in our society. The full title of her 1996 book was It Takes a Village and Other Lessons Children Teach Us.

She seems to believe that the evidence between violent media and violent behavior is strong. Such data can be convincing. I recently read about the introduction of television in Bhutan allegedly leading to increased physical aggression by children. The article is at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3812275.stm

[Typo Lad]

There's so much I want to respond to, but it's too close to Shabbos.

I don't suppose you guys could hold off for a bit, eh?

Just till 9:14 PM tomorrow EST?

Didn't think so.

[Magneto_X]

This is the most transparent suck-up to the Right from a Democrat (this is side of Zell Miller) I've ever seen.

This b/tch needs to let a *real* lady Dem run: Nancy Pelosi, for example.

[Magneto_X]

#1: The majority of games is not like this, so stop attacking them

But video-games are one of those subjects politicians love to use to appeal to voters. Like comics, only they're more mainstream, an easier target & actually have *grown* in power the last few decades.

#2: They should be yelling at the parents for buying the games in the first place.

The politicians and the parents don't want to be responsible for their actions if they screw up their children. Thus they find a scapegoat. :(

[Mike Smash!]

WOW, Before this she had my vote an '08 (my first time) but with this bullshit, I may go Republican.There are other options, you know.

And it's a pretty good chance that her Republican opponent will agree with this too.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

There are other options, you know.

And it's a pretty good chance that her Republican opponent will agree with this too.


I wonder If anyone wants this Generation to vote ? I mean Its like Hillary Is busy talking down to them as some stern mother: " We need to protect you! "


Even though she Isn't , they want someone who thinks thier cool and someone who they can Identify with. I'm waiting on a guy to show up and play a PS2 Video game with some 18 yearold kids and not come across as some guy sucking up to get a vote. Or go to a NBA Game and act like he's not above them.

I think thats why the Jessie Ventura's do win. He Indentified with the voters now. He came out and he wasn't some Politican In a slick damn suit who preached about doing this or that. Or take causes that people roll thier eyes at . Jessie told It like It was, he caught hell for comments like saying Organzied Religion Is a crock and that the Government should legalize Pot and Prostitution , but he had balls to say something about Issues that mattered.

Maybe thats why I wonder who will run In 2008 and will they matter ? Or will they be typical politicians as usual ? I wanted Howard Dean to make It. The guy had passion and he gave that Iowa WWE speech ! I thought...damnnn theres a guy who wants It bad enough. He wants to be President and he doesn't care If he does lose one Primary .

Of course the Media took that speech and made Dean look like a loon and the Election lost someone who had a spark. :(

[Guts/Batman]

This is what Hilary and other politicians should realize, dont blame the company for making violent games, blame the irresponsible parents who buy these games for their kids.

I agree totally.

[Corey Dreher]

Never mind, I thought of better judgement.

[KameTen]

As long as stupid parents make up a solid voter constituance(s?), politicans will continue to play up to them, taking the worrysome, the ignorant, and the fearful along for the ride. Just par for the course, this one is. Cure stupidity in parents, one cannot. Endure the tactics and grow, the video game industry must.

[Typo Lad]

Wow.

Did you guys really leave this topic hanging for li'l old me?

Looking it over, I see I've made my points over and over and Mike sees what I'm saying, even if others don't.

So I'm gonna walk away.

[Spike-X]

*makes rude faces behind Morts' back*

[SUPERECWFAN1]

My last comment. How do you enforce a legislation that even the parents don't give a shit about ? Do you make sure Policemen are put In all Software stores so sales of GTA aren't made to minors ? Thats my last word on It. Its much ado about crap really. I can't see any solution that doesn't Involve " Big Brother" lookin In on Video Games being made.

[CoffeeStained]

I'm certain that Hillary Clinton has never played GTA, so what explains her aggression? Attacking video games? Violence in the media, I tells ya. She's not getting my vote.

[Draconomicon]

I'm certain that Hillary Clinton has never played GTA, so what explains her aggression? Attacking video games? Violence in the media, I tells ya. She's not getting my vote.
Easiest way to get votes.
Tell parents its not their fault their kids did shit.
Tell parents it was the medias fault.
Of course parents who ARE at fault with how they did raise their children will agree with her, trying to shove the blame on someone else for how their kids turned out.

[Donald M.]

My last comment. How do you enforce a legislation that even the parents don't give a shit about ? Do you make sure Policemen are put In all Software stores so sales of GTA aren't made to minors ? Thats my last word on It. Its much ado about crap really. I can't see any solution that doesn't Involve " Big Brother" lookin In on Video Games being made.

Funny, they manage to keep stores from selling liquor and cigarettes to minors (for the most part) without any "Big Brother" type shennaigans.

Methinks the gamers doth protest too much.

[Guts/Batman]

I skimmed the article, did she stipulate what age "Adult" is?

The standard 18?

[Leslie Lee III]

Funny thing is, the last GTA had so many "positive" message in it it took away from the fun. Everything from taking care of your family and community, to not doing drugs, you can't shoot a woman while you take her on a date and your main character wasn't even close to a complete psycho and tried to go "legit." Very disappointing.

[CoffeeStained]

I'm certain that Hillary Clinton has never played GTA, so what explains her aggression? Attacking video games? Violence in the media, I tells ya. She's not getting my vote.

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Small Canadian City, Northern Canada
Posts: 79+

[StoneGold]

My first thought is can the government make a censorship-type law based on a private, self-regulating ratings system? Because the ESRB was created by the gaming industry for the express purpose of not getting government regulated. My second thought is that this is something that should be at the state, not the national level.


As to the actual law itself, I've got no truck with it. This isn't saying kids can't play violent games. This is saying retailers can't sell games to kids who stole $50 out of their mother's purse and walked to the game store without her permission. I've got no real problem with the concept behind the law, just the theoretical implementation. Truth is, any above the level game store already does this.

[Guts/Batman]

I agree with the censorship angle. And that it should not be done at a national level.

The way I play True Crime and GTA-ish games I find it more fun to take innocents out as I go. Or sometimes go a lil crazy and just start killing innocents at random and have thew SWAT come after me.

Riding along, listenin to the musicm blowing up cars then shooting the person as he/she runs out trying to get away, etc.

I had a god cop/bad cop rating of like -4500. Not including all the times I played shot up like 500 innocents and didn't save. For those who have played that game, know how bad -4500 is.

[Rob Imes]

USA Today has a front page article about Hillary Clinton today, focusing on her support of the military and how it might affect a future run for the Presidency. The article can be read here (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-18-hillary-cover_x.htm). Some highlights:

The United States has never had a female commander in chief. But while Clinton consistently brushes aside questions about whether she is eyeing a White House run in 2008, the pro-military views and tough talk on defense....might help the former first lady break one of America's enduring glass ceilings.

....In the Senate, Clinton has a fairly consistent record of support for the military — often with some of her GOP colleagues — and moderate foreign policy views.....Unlike 21 of her Democratic colleagues at the time, Clinton supported going to war in Iraq and has rejected calls for a timetable to begin bringing U.S. troops home.

....A May USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll found for the first time that a majority of Americans — 53% — said they are likely to vote for Clinton if she runs for president in 2008.

....Some Republicans contend, however, that Clinton's views on national security and foreign policy are politically crafted, given the animosity that the military often felt toward her husband.

"Her whole involvement in getting on the Armed Services Committee is a calculated political ploy to burnish up her national security and defense credentials," says (William) Black, a Virginia-based political fundraising consultant who heads the anti-Clinton group (Stop Her Now). "She certainly didn't seem to care a whit about the military before."

Some conservative columnists, such as Mona Charen, have also criticized Clinton for her more moderate comments on domestic issues. "She can sniff the wind with the best of them," Charen wrote in January. In speeches earlier this year, Clinton said abortion often represents a "sad, even tragic choice" and praised religion and prayer as central to her life.

[Rob Imes]

A major chain of stores in my area has removed all copies of "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" today. Not sure if it's just that chain of stores or something larger.

[Mike Pothier]

Every major retail store is pulling GTA:SA since the ESRB rerated it AO.

What happens next is anyone's guess.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Every major retail store is pulling GTA:SA since the ESRB rerated it AO.

What happens next is anyone's guess.

According to the news the guys that make GTA:SA are going to put out a new copy where it won't have that game to access even with a patch.