Do Marvel and DC owe an apology to the Japanese People?

[Nate C.]

The Pope, the U.S., other high profile entities, organizations and nations have made public apologies for past offenses.

Is it time for the big two?

I love Golden Age comic books, and I take great pride in saying, as Michael Chabon and others have in the past, that the comic book heros were fighting the Nazi's before America was. And there's no question that a lot of positivity came out of that time period-heroic ideals, war bond pushes, paper drives, propoganda....

but the stereotypical Japanese soldiers with slanted eyes and fanged canines is just so incredibly wrong.

What do you think?

[Dom]

The Pope, the U.S., other high profile entities, organizations and nations have made public apologies for past offenses.

Is it time for the big two?

I love Golden Age comic books, and I take great pride in saying, as Michael Chabon and others have in the past, that the comic book heros were fighting the Nazi's before America was. And there's no question that a lot of positivity came out of that time period-heroic ideals, war bond pushes, paper drives, propoganda....

but the stereotypical Japanese soldiers with slanted eyes and fanged canines is just so incredibly wrong.

What do you think?

Marvel and DC of 50 years ago is not the same as Marvel and DC today. It'd be like me apologizing to a black person because 70 years ago, white people kept blacks as slaves.

It was a terrible thing, but I had nothing to do with it. Quesada and Didio had nothing to do with those covers and propaganda, why make them apologize?

[Jonathan Bogart]

It was a terrible thing, but I had nothing to do with it. Quesada and Didio had nothing to do with those covers and propaganda, why make them apologize?
John Paul II didn't persecute Galileo or Jews either. The bigger man always apologizes.

So of course, don't hold your breath.

[Huh?]

I think they should issue some sort of apologetic statement just to put it behind them, but I have a real problem with the notion that someone apologising for something they had nothing to do with somehow means something.

[Brad Curran]

I don't think they're obligated, for the reason that Dom put forth, but I do think it's worth doing, for the reason that Jonathan put forth. In any event, it's another reminder that comics are below the cultural radar that there's no real pressure for any kind of apology for the way Japanese people, or any other ethnic group, were portrayed in comics that are still being reprinted and are readily available in bookstores (the original Batman Archives, for one example of comics I own).

[StoneGold]

Honestly, it wouldn't might not be smart to apologize out of the blue. Although it would be smart if they had some kind of campaign to tie into the whole thing. Besides, Japanese can't eat because they won't apologize to the Chinese, or something like that where I am deliberatly leaving out half the facts.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

I think we can distinguish between the organization and the people who work for it. Certainly, the respective employees of Marvel and DC have nothing for which to apologize, but that doesn't mean that the corporations could not issue an apology on their respective behalves. I mean, c'mon, "Yellow Claw?" Marvel should aplogize for that alone.

Actually, I think it would be a pretty good move to perhaps do a special one-shot issue, print the apology inside and give the profits to a memorial dedicated to the families who were imprisoned in American internment camps.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I might be wrong here, but while I don't recall an official proclamation of apology from DC - certainly nothing like Paul Levitz issuing a press statement of apology - it seems that over the years, DC has included some degree of apology for some of the more backward stuff in their old books. In interviews, forwards to reprint collections, letter pages and such, I'm pretty sure I've sometimes seen statements from editors which acknowledge that some of the older material contains some imagery that was considered acceptable at the time but is clearly offensive now. I specifically recall this in regard specifically to some of the BLACKHAWK reprints, which included the loathesome stereotype Chop-Chop, plus a fair number of bottle-lensed Japanese villains. I don't recall if that was in one of the old reprint books from the '70s or something more recent, but I do recall seeing it.

[Sam]

Tell you what -- I say we apologize for our insensitive portrayal of the Japanese during the 40s when the Japanese stop teaching their schoolchildren today that the USA were the aggressors in World War II and that the Japanese army didn't commit any war crimes.

[Slam_Bradley]

So do they also apologize to the Chinese for the Yellow Peril characters that showed up before the war? And the Mongolians, cause there were some of them? And most of the African nations for the various jungle natives? And Mexico, Central and South American countries, because there were a lot of Frito Bandito characters over the years?

[crystalline green]

I think Marvel and DC apologizing as entities that were at one time purveyors of racist images isn't such a bad idea. Not addressing these past portrayals is kind of like saying it was ok. Addressing it would acknowledge that their target audience really does include people of all races and nationalities.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Tell you what -- I say we apologize for our insensitive portrayal of the Japanese during the 40s when the Japanese stop teaching their schoolchildren today that the USA were the aggressors in World War II and that the Japanese army didn't commit any war crimes.

I'm not really of the opinion that DC owes any such apology at this point - like I said a bit ago, I think they already did it more or less anyhow - but if they were to do it, they should do it because it's the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not the Japanese stop minimizing their history of atrocities.

After all, the continued existence of corrupt, brutal African dictators doesn't make it any less awful that for generations, African characters (when depicted at all in comics) were often dishonest, sadistic, spear-chuckng cannibals who wore bones in their noses.

[GremlinClr]

I'm sorry but I think it's patantly stupid for anyone to apologize for something they had nothing to do with.

And it's really easy, 65 or so years after the fact, to say it was wrong and offensive. But it was a completely different society with a different outlook, at the time they felt there was nothing wrong with stereotypes as propaganda. Nowdays we're a little more enlightened.

If 65 years from now society as a whole outlaws meat eating and everybody becomes vegetarians, it would be really easy in a generation or so of that lifestyle to condemn our way of thinking and how we live our lives but does anyone now days give a second thought to eating a hamburger?

It just doesn't make sense to me to place our culture and values on a different society with a different way of thinking.

[Dennis K]

Let's try to remember the worldwide mindset when these comics were produced.

[BlairH]

In an age where Japan itself still hasn't apologised for the rape of Nanking and Manchuria I don't think Marvel and DC should apologise.

[Cei-U!]

It'd be like me apologizing to a black person because 70 years ago, white people kept blacks as slaves.

If there were white people keeping blacks as slaves in 1935, they owe somebody a hell of a lot more than an apology.

Cei-U!
I summon the alternate history!

[BlairH]

If there were white people keeping blacks as slaves in 1935, they owe somebody a hell of a lot more than an apology.

Cei-U!
I summon the alternate history!

Maybe he knows something the rest of us dont.

[Brad Curran]

Dom is from the 1800s and posts here via time travel. That's the first slip he's made since his post about Ambrose Burnside's scandalous facial hair and how it was undermining the Union's war effort.

[Noah Johnson]

I say a nice, simple apology, nothing big, just some kind of public acknowledgement that, yeah, back in the day our comics had some pretty distasteful racial stereotypes in 'em, and that was wrong. It made sense at the time, but it was wrong.

Oh, and all this "We shouldn't apologize 'till they do" stuff is ludicrous. This is not about some infantile pissing match, it's about doing the right thing. And if you're a civilized person, you do the right thing just because it's the right thing. That's all.

[cactusmaac]

No way.

Those comics were crude and offensive but apologising for those when Japan continues to airbrush its' history and honours friggin' war-criminals is not on.

[thehod]

I'm still waiting for the apology from Norway, Sweeden and Denmark for the rape and pillage thier people carried out on my country between 600 - 900 AD.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Asians, and mostly Japanese, are the minority that is most missrepresented in comics.

There is no solid well-rounded Japanese, Asian character. There has never been any story set in Japan that was based on a realistic portrayal of the country.

Japan, and the rest of Asia for that matter, has been the victim of cultural stereotyping, up to the point of blattant discrimination.

[Dizzy D]

I'm still waiting for the apology from Norway, Sweeden and Denmark for the rape and pillage thier people carried out on my country between 600 - 900 AD.

They are waiting for you to apologize first for the unrightful occupation of Celtic territory in 300-600 A.D that continues to this day.

[thehod]

They are waiting for you to apologize first for the unrightful occupation of Celtic territory in 300-600 A.D that continues to this day.

Touche :D

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Asians, and mostly Japanese, are the minority that is most missrepresented in comics.

There is no solid well-rounded Japanese, Asian character. There has never been any story set in Japan that was based on a realistic portrayal of the country.

Japan, and the rest of Asia for that matter, has been the victim of cultural stereotyping, up to the point of blattant discrimination.


What about Jubilee? You are right about the no realistic portrayal of the country, but you have to remember that even some American cities are portrayed bad (i.e: Hartford, Connecticut in JSA). This topic is kind of why I like the black Lex Luthor because even though he has a hidden agenda, most of the time he is a great black leader....... Who does not like Superman.

Not all Asians in comics get a bad rap. And if your still not happy, there is always anime! (African Americans are always the losers who get beat up or are the secondary sidekicks at most to the Asian or American main character, which I hate!)

(France, recently, has gotten a bad rap in comics i.e: Ultimates 2)

[The Dosadi Experiment]

First of all... half the Asian characters in comics don't even look Asian.

When I first read stories with Jubilee in them, she looked caucasian, it was only a year or so later, perhaps even more, that I learned that she was in fact a Chinese-American.

Incidentally she's the only Asian character whose history doesn't include ninja's or ridicilious medieval feudal systems.

Seriously, name 10 stories set in Japan, or where the main characters are Asian, and then count how many of them involve ninjas, some sort of honour-based system that's ripped straight from Feudal Japan, or samurai's or swords.

2005, Kitty visits Japan... and still she meets up with... you guessed it folks... ninjas!

[Charles RB]

Nah. Marvel and DC owe an apology to the Irish people for inflicting Shamrock on them.

[Typo Lad]

Well, Linda Park (aka Mrs. Flash) is Korean (right) and has no Ninjas involved in her past.

What amazes me isn't the stuff that went on in the 'Golden Age", but the fact that Marvel had the Yellow Claw as a bad guy in The Avengers in 1980!

But no, I don't think they should apologize, with the exception of forwards to any collections. And it should be the orginal writer/editor/artist who's apologizing.

[west3man]

1) If I've wronged someone or someoneS, whether or not I should apologize is not dependent upon whether the other person apologizes FIRST. Otherwise, two wronged parties will never move beyond the offenses.

2) Asian characters could be portrayed better. Jubilee started off fairly well, I suppose, but Dosadi's right that she looked like a white female for years. The same was true of Linda Park (The Flash's wife).
-----------------------------------------------------
Dosadi, I find it interesting, and somewhat baffling, that you could be so observant, concerned, and vocal over this issue (#2), but not over similar issues concerning African-American representation in comics. Yes, Asian characters are less-represented than Blacks, but recognition of under-representation is not an either/or situation.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Like Morts said, a foreward at the beginning of a compilation should be all that is needed.

I sort of find this whole thing ridiculous. It is a part of history and represented the psyche of a people in the middle of a war, I think it is good to remember stuff like that. Shows us where we come from.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Dosadi, I find it interesting, and somewhat baffling, that you could be so observant, concerned, and vocal over this issue (#2), but not over similar issues concerning African-American representation in comics. Yes, Asian characters are less-represented than Blacks, but recognition of under-representation is not an either/or situation.

Making up for past sins. ;)

Asians are often defined by something that's utterly over-the-top absurd. Ninjas, the feudal system still being quite alive in Japan, we're dealing with a nation that is known for its technological interests and its love for electronical devices, but that whole nation is thrown out in favour of a society that hasn't moved forward in more than 200 years. Technology in Japan is merely a transparant excuse to make it appear modern, because in the streets of their cities there are still Ninjas running around chasing Samureis because they are defending the honour of their family, which incidentally is regularly seen dressed in a highly ceremonial gown, and their walls are adorned by historical paraphenelia such as swords and nunchuks or throwing stars, except that those objects aren't really historical object in comic-book Japan, they're bitter modern reality there.

And still I don't like Akira Yoshida's work.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Making up for past sins. ;)

Asians are often defined by something that's utterly over-the-top absurd. Ninjas, the feudal system still being quite alive in Japan, we're dealing with a nation that is known for its technological interests and its love for electronical devices, but that whole nation is thrown out in favour of a society that hasn't moved forward in more than 200 years. Technology in Japan is merely a transparant excuse to make it appear modern, because in the streets of their cities there are still Ninjas running around chasing Samureis because they are defending the honour of their family, which incidentally is regularly seen dressed in a highly ceremonial gown, and their walls are adorned by historical paraphenelia such as swords and nunchuks or throwing stars, except that those objects aren't really historical object in comic-book Japan, they're bitter modern reality there.

And still I don't like Akira Yoshida's work.

That's because its cool. Ninja + Samurai= The Coolness.

Comic books want to be cool so they decide Ninja*Samurai + Comicbook= Cool comic book.

Geez, you'd think showing them like that was as bad as the bugeyed and bucktooth look or the beady eyes and fangs look.

[Typo Lad]

2) Asian characters could be portrayed better. Jubilee started off fairly well, I suppose, but Dosadi's right that she looked like a white female for years. The same was true of Linda Park (The Flash's wife).

I'll have to double check, but the first Jubilee I saw was drawn by Jim Lee, and she looked Asian to me. Post Lee, yeah - I have to agree.

Linda Park was initially portrayed as Asain. It was only later that artists seemed to forget that Koreans have distinctive skin color and features.

[Sheldon]

Poor Sunfire got his legs chopped off and died.

[Typo Lad]

That's because its cool. Ninja + Samurai= The Coolness.

Comic books want to be cool so they decide Ninja*Samurai + Comicbook= Cool comic book.

Geez, you'd think showing them like that was as bad as the bugeyed and bucktooth look or the beady eyes and fangs look.

RT, c'mon.

That's like saying that "The Angry Black Man" is "cool" so it's okay, and hey, it's better than an Ebony-esque character!

Asians in comics end up being computer wizes or Ninjas, and all seem to know Marital Arts.

Jews in comics all talk like Woody Allen or Jackie Mason (both of who use an exagerated Yiddish-style parsing of English, and almost make it an artform) and have no Jewish identity beyond that and liking Chicken soup.

Asians in comics have a criminal past and are "tough loners".

Homosexuals in comics are so flaming that they make the Human Tourch look dim.

In comics, Strong woman=bitch and everyone else is a damsel in distress.

There are rare exceptions, but comics have a way to go.

[Nate C.]

I'll have to double check, but the first Jubilee I saw was drawn by Jim Lee, and she looked Asian to me. Post Lee, yeah - I have to agree.



yeah, but Lee made everyone look Asian on his X-Men run.

Even Rogue. Which made her Southern accent even sillier.

[west3man]

I'll have to double check, but the first Jubilee I saw was drawn by Jim Lee, and she looked Asian to me. Post Lee, yeah - I have to agree.
I don't disagree.

Jubilee WAS drawn as an Asian female, when she first appeared. Her parents were shown and they, too, looked the part. When I said she was done fairly well, at first, I was addressing the "well-rounded" facet of Dosadi's criticisms. When I said she was a white girl for years, it was because she was a white girl for years... just not at the beginning.

I was pleased to see that they accurately depicted her ethnicity in the movie, especially since they arsed it up so much in the comics and the cartoon. Now, the particular Asian actress they chose... *shrugs* Then again, the body-types of a lot of comic book characters are pretty similar. Unless they wanted a bunch of clones with different faces, I guess it makes sense to mix it up a little. Plus, Jubes has changed (i.e. aged) in the comics, so I should probably stop picturing the version of her that longed for something more than "mosquito bites."

Linda Park was initially portrayed as Asain. It was only later that artists seemed to forget that Koreans have distinctive skin color and features. Again, I agree. She walked around waaaay too long in white-face, though.



This nigh-trend has been a sore spot with me for some time. Some of you may still wince at the memory of my rants on the subject. It just seems like a small thing to ask - keep your characters' ethnicities straight and consistent, at least within a particular vein of continuity. Failing in that regard, for so long, with Asian characters across two companies... that set off my antennae.

[west3man]

yeah, but Lee made everyone look Asian on his X-Men run.
I didn't think so.

[Sheldon]

Yer thinking Andy Kubert.....he makes everyone look "asian"

[Nate C.]

Well, it's my opinion, gents, and I stand by it.

Early X-Men Lee, not all Lee.

[Typo Lad]

Making up for past sins. ;)

As someone who gave you a lotta crap for those "sins", let me say that this is damn classy of you.

[Typo Lad]

This nigh-trend has been a sore spot with me for some time. Some of you may still wince at the memory of my rants on the subject. It just seems like a small thing to ask - keep your characters' ethnicities straight and consistent, at least within a particular vein of continuity. Failing in that regard, for so long, with Asian characters across two companies... that set off my antennae.

Agreed.

You know, I think the most diverse team in the entire Marvel Universe may be the Serpent Society.

How sad is that?

[Ed Cunard]

Asians, and mostly Japanese, are the minority that is most missrepresented in comics.

Superhero comics, maybe, but there's more to the medium than that. If anyone wants suggestions, I'd start with Same Difference and Other Stories (http://topshelfcomix.com/catalog.php?type=12&title=403) by Derek Kirk Kim.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Well, it's my opinion, gents, and I stand by it.

Early X-Men Lee, not all Lee.

To be fair, most of Early Lee's run was situated in Madripoor and I think HongKong. The stories, of course, dealt with the Mandarin, and Psylocke having fallen through the Siege Perilous and ending up as... you guessed it, a ninja.

[Typo Lad]

The stories, of course, dealt with the Mandarin, and Psylocke having fallen through the Siege Perilous and ending up as... you guessed it, a ninja.

Which would have been cool if she hadn't suddenly gotten a new Asain body.

I would have loved reading about a "veddy" British ninja.

You get the impression that Lee decided drawing Anglo-Psycloke was too hard, so they did that storyline.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Superhero comics, maybe, but there's more to the medium than that. If anyone wants suggestions, I'd start with Same Difference and Other Stories (http://topshelfcomix.com/catalog.php?type=12&title=403) by Derek Kirk Kim.

Excellent story, funny even, but ultimately it's outside of the mainstream.

It's from an independant publisher, and as we all know, those are the types of comics that are mostly overlooked, regardless of their quality, by the largest crowd.

The two biggest mainstream companies have a very sour history when it comes to depicting Asians, up to the point where they simply refuse to draw Asians as Asian.

[Nate C.]

Well, Gents, some good opinions all around, ranging from "Screw em, let them apologize for WWII" to "yes, of course, and other things too."

It's nice to hear what others think on things such as this.

I personally think that the big two should, and it's because of something JWK and a few others touched on.

These books are still being reprinted and read.

If we were talking historical documents, then, yes, leave them as is, and let history determine good and bad choices, perceptions, over time.

BUT, I want a complete hardback collection of Golden Age Captain America, dangitt. And I want to be able to loan it to my Asian friends and get it back in one piece. I do think a Foreward would do nicely (Eisner has done something along these lines in his interviews in the old Kitchen Sink reprint books of The Spirit; he had lengthy dialogue with {I believe Dennis} on the subject of Ebony. Sadly, those are no longer the definitive works, as DC is putting out the fabulous hardbacks. Without any acknowledgement of Ebony's difficult representation.) as would an essay of the times, the mindsets, the zeitgeist by someone like Stan Lee (I think all the old birds are dead now).

You know, we aren't just losing our WWII vets and Holocoust victims. We're also losing the creators of one of America's greatest art forms. Is anyone taking notice? The comic book industry isn't known for rigid scholarship, and we are running out of time to halt any of the further loss of information.

[Slam_Bradley]

The comparison between the nations apologizing for past offenses and DC and Marvel apologizing is specious. There is much less reason for the companies to apologize based simply on continuity of the entity.

Keep in mind that throughout the forties DC was actually two companies, National Periodicals which published Batman, Superman, and their related books (along with Adventure) and All-American which published Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, et. al. The two later merged completely, but the company has changed corporate ownership at least twice since then, along with acquiring the Quality and the Fawcett characters.

Timely/Atlas/Marvel has also gone through numerous corporate owners since Martin Goodman divested himself of the company.

The current companies are so tenuously connected to what was published in the Golden Age that it would be an utterly meaningless apology.

Now, if one of the creator's from the time wanted to apologize, that would have meaning.

Do all the publishing houses that have published Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu novels need to issue an apology to the Republic of China?

I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks. That is the course of acknowledging and learning from history. But a blanket apology is a meaningless and empty set of words.

[thehod]

I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks. That is the course of acknowledging and learning from history. But a blanket apology is a meaningless and empty set of words.

And would the vast majority of people that this apology would be aimed at even know what on Earth DC & Marvel were talking about.

DC/Marvel: "We apologise for the way in which we have historically portrayed your people in our publications."

90% of Japanese people: "Come again?"

[Slam_Bradley]

You know, we aren't just losing our WWII vets and Holocoust victims. We're also losing the creators of one of America's greatest art forms. Is anyone taking notice? The comic book industry isn't known for rigid scholarship, and we are running out of time to halt any of the further loss of information.


This is off topic, but it is an issue that I've given a lot of thought too and that we have addressed (to some extent) on the Classics board. We are absolutely losing (and have lost) most of the first generation of comic creators and are rapidly losing the second generation. I do think that we are in something of a renaissance of comic scholarship, however. The publication of magazines like Alter Ego, Comic Book Artist and Hogan's Alley is enormously important. Twomorrow's line of books, though certainly not as scholarly as I'd like, is extremely important to keeping alive the thoughts and memories of those creators we have left. And the publication of books like Gerard Jones' "Men of Tomorrow", Julie Schwartz's and Stan Lee's memoirs have brought comic scholarship more in to the mainstream.

[west3man]

RT, c'mon.

That's like saying that "The Angry Black Man" is "cool" so it's okay, and hey, it's better than an Ebony-esque character!

Asians in comics end up being computer wizes or Ninjas, and all seem to know Marital Arts.

Jews in comics all talk like Woody Allen or Jackie Mason (both of who use an exagerated Yiddish-style parsing of English, and almost make it an artform) and have no Jewish identity beyond that and liking Chicken soup.

Asians in comics have a criminal past and are "tough loners".

Homosexuals in comics are so flaming that they make the Human Tourch look dim.

In comics, Strong woman=bitch and everyone else is a damsel in distress.

There are rare exceptions, but comics have a way to go.


.... Waddayamean "Morts already said that?"

[Sheldon]

Well Marvel should at least apologize for the abomination that was the Marvel Mangaverse.

[Michael P]

The current companies are so tenuously connected to what was published in the Golden Age that it would be an utterly meaningless apology.

I agree with this, and I'll also point out how little effect it would have. I mean, unless it's a *really* slow news day, the announcement of the apology would barely penetrate the cultural consciousness. The most press and discussion it would get would be on Newsarama, and that would devolve into the usual Marvel/DC pissing contest by the fifth post.

[Typo Lad]

.... Waddayamean "Morts already said that?"

Now who owes who an apology?

[west3man]

Which would have been cool if she hadn't suddenly gotten a new Asain body.

I would have loved reading about a "veddy" British ninja.

You get the impression that Lee decided drawing Anglo-Psycloke was too hard, so they did that storyline.
I thought they thought she was too bland. In fact, I think it was said out-right in an article or something, but I'm not positive about that.

The whole "Revanche" thing was oddly cool. It was an odd choice to make, but it resulted in such coolness. Then, they stuck a fork in my last longings for the original Psylocke's return when Revanche showed up in Betsy's old body... drawn UNexpertly by a Kubert. It was so ugly, as was a lot of his stuff from that series and time, that I embraced the new 'Lock all the more.

I still fondly remember how Psylocke looked when she first showed up, though, and how great the stories were. In fact, those are among my favorites.

It might be interesting if the right writer (Claremont?) somehow put her back into her old body or replaced the "new" Psylocke with the "old" one... maybe time-displaced. She'd be compared to what she used to be (or "would be"), maybe feel as useless as she did when she first showed up, then maybe could carve out her own identity. She tried to with armor she used during Inferno, but that faded away after a while.

Hmm... Now that I think about it, her recent resurrection could've been (or still could be) a way to bring her previous incarnation back - kinda like the anti-Siege Perilous.

Just some thoughts.

[west3man]

Now who owes who an apology?
Hehe.

Seriously, though. Well-said. In fact, I kinda tuned out after the first few sentences because you were handlin' biz so well.

[Nate C.]

I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks. That is the course of acknowledging and learning from history. But a blanket apology is a meaningless and empty set of words.

This is more what I meant by the thread title and topic.


This is off topic, but it is an issue that I've given a lot of thought too and that we have addressed (to some extent) on the Classics board. We are absolutely losing (and have lost) most of the first generation of comic creators and are rapidly losing the second generation. I do think that we are in something of a renaissance of comic scholarship, however. The publication of magazines like Alter Ego, Comic Book Artist and Hogan's Alley is enormously important. Twomorrow's line of books, though certainly not as scholarly as I'd like, is extremely important to keeping alive the thoughts and memories of those creators we have left. And the publication of books like Gerard Jones' "Men of Tomorrow", Julie Schwartz's and Stan Lee's memoirs have brought comic scholarship more in to the mainstream.

I was thinking more of the mainstream compilations, like say, "The 60 Year History of Marvel!" with 30 pages devoted to Bill Baxter, and 1 paragraph to Bill Everett. I've even heard/read one author admit that comic book scholarship is attrocious, because the fans don't seem to care.

We're gonna have a hard time getting others to care about our roots when we don't ourselves.

I've often thought of doing some type of thesis or essay or somesuch, but the resources, for me, are so minimal that anything I put out would be reguritation and not an addition.

[Ed Cunard]

It's from an independant publisher, and as we all know, those are the types of comics that are mostly overlooked, regardless of their quality, by the largest crowd.

Yes, but every time I don't mention independent and small press comics when I can, I die a little inside.

[Ed Cunard]

I was thinking more of the mainstream compilations, like say, "The 60 Year History of Marvel!" with 30 pages devoted to Bill Baxter, and 1 paragraph to Bill Everett. I've even heard/read one author admit that comic book scholarship is attrocious, because the fans don't seem to care.

We're gonna have a hard time getting others to care about our roots when we don't ourselves.

I've often thought of doing some type of thesis or essay or somesuch, but the resources, for me, are so minimal that anything I put out would be reguritation and not an addition.

There are some books out there, scholarly and otherwise, but you're right--they're few and far between.

Tom Spurgeon (http://comicsreporter.com) has a pretty comprehensive list (http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/lists/lists_and_links/87/) of books about comics and comics fandom. He also did the excellent Stan Lee biography (http://stanleebook.com/).

[west3man]

Originally Posted by Slam_Bradley
I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks.This is more what I meant by the thread title and topic.
Okay, but I don't see how something so obvious is somehow more meaningful than a similar statement which expresses regret over the result of those outlooks and values.

[Lone Ranger]

Quite often, I find the foreward to be the most enjoyable part of a reprint volume.

I agree that it is the perfect place for a discussion of the portrayal of various races/nationalities over the years.

In his foreward to the DC Blackhawk Archives, Mark Evanier discusses the character Chop Chop, but that's the only instance I can recally of the issue being addressed. Mind you, I only have a few of the Spirit Volumes, but I have seen that kind of thing (to the best of my recollection) in any Superman, Batman or Golden Age Captain American Volume.

Fawcett was a major player in the WW2 propaganda-type book, so a discussion in any Marvel Family type reprint would be appropriate as well.

The first time I ran across this kind of thing (it was in an issue of Hillman's Target Comics from 1945), my jaw hit the floor when I heard Target and the Targeteers refer to the Japanes soldiers as 'slant eyes'. That being said, I didn't exactly throw it out in the trash, but rather I keep it as I find it to be very telling of the sentiments during that point in time.

A academic book on the treatment of race/nationality in comics would be very, very interesting - I'd certainly buy a copy.

A discussion along these lines can be frank and open without being apologist. It is important that these books stand as a representation of a certain era.

[Nate C.]

Thanks, Ed, that looks like a good resource.


But from the list, here's an idea of what I'm talking about- this "Encyclopedia" is pretty useless to a scholar, other than just having the most cursory information about a strip (creator, dates, publisher, synopsis, etc.)

We need more indepth stuff. (say, for example, compiling Eisener's conversations, interviews, essays in a way that's comprehensive and usable.)
An Eisnerbible if you will.


100 Years of American Newspaper Comics: An Illustrated Encyclopedia
Maurice Horn
Gramercy Book (March 1996)
ISBN: 0517124475

[Nate C.]

Originally Posted by Slam_Bradley
I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks.
Okay, but I don't see how something so obvious is somehow more meaningful than a similar statement which expresses regret over the result of those outlooks and values.

Oh I think regret should be a part of the essay. Regret and acknowledgement and progress. And cultural importance and historical melieu.

[Rabid Trekkie]

RT, c'mon.

That's like saying that "The Angry Black Man" is "cool" so it's okay, and hey, it's better than an Ebony-esque character!

Asians in comics end up being computer wizes or Ninjas, and all seem to know Marital Arts.

Jews in comics all talk like Woody Allen or Jackie Mason (both of who use an exagerated Yiddish-style parsing of English, and almost make it an artform) and have no Jewish identity beyond that and liking Chicken soup.

Asians in comics have a criminal past and are "tough loners".

Homosexuals in comics are so flaming that they make the Human Tourch look dim.

In comics, Strong woman=bitch and everyone else is a damsel in distress.

There are rare exceptions, but comics have a way to go.

You lost me with the Ebony thing. Is the ninja/samurai thing a stereotype? Yeah but it's not a very bad one. China and Japan also make movies where it seems that everybody is a kungfu genius and can fly. So I don't really see it as all that bad if we still see ninjas and other things in comics which I would say the majority are filled with archetypes anyway, especially with superhero comics.

I do agree with you that black people have had it tough in pretty much all forms of entertainment, and that back when the Golden Age was going on we weren't exactly nice to asians either. But the stuff that is being mentioned now just doesn't strike me as that bad.

As for Jews or Homosexuals in comics I can't really comment as my reading of comics is limited and haven't come across either type in my readings. But hey the Jews got Superman so it can't be all bad.

[Michael P]

You lost me with the Ebony thing. Is the ninja/samurai thing a stereotype?
Ebony was a gross black stereotype from Eisner's Spirit series, a real Steppin' Fetchit type. It's very telling that when Darwyn Cooke was talking about the new Spirit ongoing yesterday, he didn't mention Ebony at all.

[Ed Cunard]

A academic book on the treatment of race/nationality in comics would be very, very interesting - I'd certainly buy a copy.

Here are some focusing on race from the list:


Black Images in Comics: A Visual History (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560975466/qid=1121437824/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-9749080-5076113?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
Frederik Stromberg, Charles Johnson
Fantagraphics (August 2003)
ISBN: 1560975466

Black Superheroes, Milestone Comics, and Their Fans (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578062829/qid=1121437877/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-9749080-5076113?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
Jeffrey A. Brown
University Press of Mississippi (January 2001)
ISBN: 1578062810 (hc)
ISBN: 1578062829 (pb)

[Slam_Bradley]

Originally Posted by Slam_Bradley
I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks.
Okay, but I don't see how something so obvious is somehow more meaningful than a similar statement which expresses regret over the result of those outlooks and values.


The difference is that you are acknowledging a particular instance that you are publishing and addressing it to an actual audience that will hear the explaination.

A blanket statement by DC or Marvel that "we apologize for the past sins of our predecessor corporations that were perpetrated by people who are now dead and were read by people who are now largely dead at a time when we were at war with your country" (assuming it is directed at the Japanese), cast out in to the media is meaningless.

Looking at the issue in its historical context in a forward, both reaches the audience, who could be potentially offended by the material, and puts it in its proper perspective. Additionally it benefits the cause of scholarship by looking at these issues and contrasting the time at which they were originally published with the current situation.

I have more...but I just noticed I'm due in court.

[DarlingNikki]

apologizing don't mean crap as far as i'm concerned cuz it's only words. they can start putting more realistic asians in their comics. that's the only sincere rectification of the matter.

think about it. just cuz they make an official apology doesn't mean they really feel that way and even if they did, would that change the fact that asian characters are still being depicted in a stereotypical, one-dimensional manner?

hell, BET should apologize for its jacked up, one-dimensional depiction of blacks. meanwhile, i'd rather have them put more programming in place to show the varied experience of black folks instead of some statement saying they're sorry for doing it.

[west3man]

apologizing don't mean crap as far as i'm concerned cuz it's only words. they can start putting more realistic asians in their comics. that's the only sincere rectification of the matter.

think about it. just cuz they make an official apology doesn't mean they really feel that way and even if they did, would that change the fact that asian characters are still being depicted in a stereotypical, one-dimensional manner?

hell, BET should apologize for its jacked up, one-dimensional depiction of blacks. meanwhile, i'd rather have them put more programming in place to show the varied experience of black folks instead of some statement saying they're sorry for doing it.
If someone steps on my toe, I want an apology. If they didn't mean it, that'll become clear soon enough.

That's just my pref.

[Typo Lad]

You lost me with the Ebony thing.

Michael explained it better.

Is the ninja/samurai thing a stereotype? Yeah but it's not a very bad one.

A fleshwound is still a wound.

China and Japan also make movies where it seems that everybody is a kungfu genius and can fly.

And BET is owned by an African-American. That doesn't mean it doesn't run a hell of a lot of offensive content.

So I don't really see it as all that bad if we still see ninjas and other things in comics which I would say the majority are filled with archetypes anyway, especially with superhero comics.

It'd be one thing if it were one Asian character, like say Shang Chi. To me, he's an archetype and not a stereotype. But when everyone who has asian ancestry is suddenly Bruce Lee? That's insulting.

I do agree with you that black people have had it tough in pretty much all forms of entertainment, and that back when the Golden Age was going on we weren't exactly nice to asians either. But the stuff that is being mentioned now just doesn't strike me as that bad.

Again, it's not as bad now, but it sure isn't good either.

As for Jews or Homosexuals in comics I can't really comment as my reading of comics is limited and haven't come across either type in my readings. But hey the Jews got Superman so it can't be all bad.

Superman. Is. Not. Jewish.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees h.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Michael explained it better.



A fleshwound is still a wound.



And BET is owned by an African-American. That doesn't mean it doesn't run a hell of a lot of offensive content.



It'd be one thing if it were one Asian character, like say Shang Chi. To me, he's an archetype and not a stereotype. But when everyone who has asian ancestry is suddenly Bruce Lee? That's insulting.



Again, it's not as bad now, but it sure isn't good either.



Superman. Is. Not. Jewish.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees h.

I guess I just don't see it that way. No offense meant to anyone, I'm just a little dense about things.

[Lone Ranger]

Superman. Is. Not. Jewish.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees h.

Oh yes he is...

At least according to the book Men are from Mars, Jews are from Krypton.

[DarlingNikki]

If someone steps on my toe, I want an apology. If they didn't mean it, that'll become clear soon enough.

That's just my pref.

if a company disses my entire race by depicting it in a stereotypical manner in the past and then via assimilation in the present, i'd tell it to stick that apology in its ass unless it's followed by action to rectify the matter. lip service don't mean jack unless its during sex and even then it's meaningless without hand action.

but i respect your position.

[Typo Lad]

Oh yes he is...

At least according to the book Men are from Mars, Jews are from Krypton.

I'm going to get you for that one.

[Dreadstar]

If someone steps on my toe, I want an apology. If they didn't mean it, that'll become clear soon enough.

That's just my pref.

Wouldn't you prefer the apology come from the guy who actually steps on your toes, though?

[west3man]

Originally Posted by Slam_Bradley
I have no problem with the companies acknowledging in a forward to a collection that these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks.
Originally Posted by west3man
Okay, but I don't see how something so obvious is somehow more meaningful than a similar statement which expresses regret over the result of those outlooks and values.The difference is that you are acknowledging a particular instance that you are publishing and addressing it to an actual audience that will hear the explaination.

A blanket statement by DC or Marvel that "we apologize for the past sins of our predecessor corporations that were perpetrated by people who are now dead and were read by people who are now largely dead at a time when we were at war with your country" (assuming it is directed at the Japanese), cast out in to the media is meaningless.

Looking at the issue in its historical context in a forward, both reaches the audience, who could be potentially offended by the material, and puts it in its proper perspective. Additionally it benefits the cause of scholarship by looking at these issues and contrasting the time at which they were originally published with the current situation.

I have more...but I just noticed I'm due in court.
The audience is likely to already have the proper perspective. They/we already know that "these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks."

I don't want to comic book companies or anyone else trying to give me something I already have, but denying me what I don't have... an apology - particularly from the perspective that the apology, an affective response rooted in regret and intent, is without meaning.

Such a discussion would be largely academic, which is not to say that it is without value. However, an apology has as much value as the speaker and the listener give it. If the potential listeners attach a great deal of significance to and want the apology, then an academic response, while valuable, would still fall short as a replacement.

I can get an "explanation" from anyone. It's only the representative of the offending party that can offer the apology.

. . .

And just because the offenders may not be at Marvel or DC, anymore, doesn't mean they can't express regret over what occurred in the past... just like it doesn't mean that they can't express pride over what occurred in the past.

It's a two-way street.

[west3man]

And BET is owned by an African-American. That doesn't mean it doesn't run a hell of a lot of offensive content.
I don't think it is, anymore.

I know Essence isn't, but I thought the same was true of BET... from some years back, in fact.

[west3man]

if a company disses my entire race by depicting it in a stereotypical manner in the past and then via assimilation in the present, i'd tell it to stick that apology in its ass unless it's followed by action to rectify the matter. lip service don't mean jack unless its during sex and even then it's meaningless without hand action.

but i respect your position.
And I respect yours, particularly because I don't think the apology (pre-ass) and the rectum... err... rectifying action are mutually exclusive.


To me, it's like showing someone you love them and telling them. Obviously, the person saying s/he loves you could be lying, that's why the showing AND the telling are BOTH valuable... to me, anyway.

If I'm married to someone for 20 years, who always shows me she loves me, but never tells me, we've got a problem... not as big as if she were someone who says it but never shows it, but this illustrates the value of the words, to a lot of folks, anyway.

[Nate C.]

Ebony was a gross black stereotype from Eisner's Spirit series, a real Steppin' Fetchit type. It's very telling that when Darwyn Cooke was talking about the new Spirit ongoing yesterday, he didn't mention Ebony at all.

That's not exactly true.

As I've pointed out numerous times on this board, there is a lot for black fans to be proud of in the character of Ebony.

He was the first real sidekick in comics, and he was black.

He saved the Spirit's butt more times than I can count and was quite good at deduction-he wasn't the boy hostage that Robin was.

He had a manifold depth. He was a part of his community and part of the Spirit's and gave the Spirit a humanity that he otherwise would not have had.

I agree that he was a stereotype, (and the art is the worst offense) but I don't see the "step and fetchit" that you do. (And I've read most of the run).

Who is Darwyn Cook? A link, please?

[DarlingNikki]

And I respect yours, particularly because I don't think the apology (pre-ass) and the rectum... err... rectifying action are mutually exclusive.


To me, it's like showing someone you love them and telling them. Obviously, the person saying s/he loves you could be lying, that's why the showing AND the telling are BOTH valuable... to me, anyway.

If I'm married to someone for 20 years, who always shows me she loves me, but never tells me, we've got a problem... not as big as if she were someone who says it but never shows it, but this illustrates the value of the words, to a lot of folks, anyway.

i think the situations are different because we're talking about a company vs. an individual. two people who say they love each other do so because they know each other and are significant in each other's lives. they know their actions affect each other and they make a conscious effort not to hurt each other because of that love. that's an individual relationship.if it was a person directly, then i can see where an apology might be warranted, and even then, i'd see it better if it was an injustice of one against one.

because it's a number of people representing an entity, most of those people aren't around to make a difference in the way the company operates now. so to me, it's the individuals running the company now who can offset the actions of the past with action right now. anyone can apologize for what marvel and dc did back then but my preference is for them to do something about instead of just apologizing. place more asians in positions of power within the company, place more asians within the industry, place more realistic asian characters in their books and do so where they're not just sidekicks.

i'm not adverse to the apology, only the idea that an apology would be enough to fix it.

[Joe Rice]

Who is Darwyn Cook? A link, please?

Buh . . .uh . . .wha?

[Nate C.]

And since, my title is poorly worded, the real topic at hand, I think, is in light of reprints of these older editions of comic books, do Marvel and DC (and DC on behalf of Fawcett) have an obligation to notate the wrongs done in the past in these editions?

[Ed Cunard]

Who is Darwyn Cook? A link, please?

http://www.readyourselfraw.com/profiles/cooke/profile_cooke.htm

I think you'd like NEW FRONTIER quite a bit, if you haven't already seen it.

[Nate C.]

Buh . . .uh . . .wha?

Should I be embarressed? Is he that big a name?

[Nate C.]

http://www.readyourselfraw.com/profiles/cooke/profile_cooke.htm

I think you'd like NEW FRONTIER quite a bit, if you haven't already seen it.

Thanks, Ed, I haven't seen it, nor had I heard of Darwyn (although someone whose "late to the medium" and focused on animation doesn't equate to household name recognition).

[west3man]

i think the situations are different because we're talking about a company vs. an individual. two people who say they love each other do so because they know each other and are significant in each other's lives. they know their actions affect each other and they make a conscious effort not to hurt each other because of that love. that's an individual relationship.if it was a person directly, then i can see where an apology might be warranted, and even then, i'd see it better if it was an injustice of one against one. Love can be expressed by an individual to many or by many to an individual, but it's not a sticking point for me considering your last line...

because it's a number of people representing an entity, most of those people aren't around to make a difference in the way the company operates now. so to me, it's the individuals running the company now who can offset the actions of the past with action right now. anyone can apologize for what marvel and dc did back then but my preference is for them to do something about instead of just apologizing. place more asians in positions of power within the company, place more asians within the industry, place more realistic asian characters in their books and do so where they're not just sidekicks.

i'm not adverse to the apology, only the idea that an apology would be enough to fix it.
I didn't think the question was whether Marvel or DC should ONLY apologize, but I'll bet most people interpreted it your way than mine.

[Michael P]

Buh . . .uh . . .wha?
This is where Joe goes berserk.

[west3man]

Sorry. Missed this the first time.Wouldn't you prefer the apology come from the guy who actually steps on your toes, though?
Prefer? Sure. I'd also prefer that it never occurred in the first place, but if these options aren't available, I'll take the one that is... in some cases, anyway.

[Typo Lad]

Thanks, Ed, I haven't seen it, nor had I heard of Darwyn (although someone whose "late to the medium" and focused on animation doesn't equate to household name recognition).

My good man! You MUST read it! BRILLIANCE.

I won't part with my hard copies, but can find you evil scanses if you likes.

[Nate C.]

My good man! You MUST read it! BRILLIANCE.

I won't part with my hard copies, but can find you evil scanses if you likes.

please, to email me. porfavor.

[Jonathan Bogart]

please, to email me. porfavor.
Hell, I'll send you the singles I have. I'll be getting the book when it eventually comes out in a one-volume hardcover, and I don't tend to keep saddle-stitched comic books around any more.

[Typo Lad]

Hell, I'll send you the singles I have. I'll be getting the book when it eventually comes out in a one-volume hardcover, and I don't tend to keep saddle-stitched comic books around any more.

Go for it. It's better in "real" anyway. i just got digital copies for my commute.

[Shellhead]

In an age where Japan itself still hasn't apologised for the rape of Nanking and Manchuria I don't think Marvel and DC should apologise.

Once the apologies start, where would we stop? And why is the comic book thing a bigger deal than the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor or the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

While it's true that asian characters haven't gotten the best treatment in comics, I feel that Shang-Chi is an exception. His series lasted 120 issues, a solid decade, and consistently had quality writers and decent artists. While Shang may have seemed like a shallow stereotype to those who didn't follow his series, he had a rich inner monologue that gave him a depth that most other heroes in any genre lack. It's unfortunate that Marvel consistently portrayed him as having orange skin, but they didn't have the most sophisticated color processing capabilities back then.

In general, there are two major reasons why most minorities don't get handled well in comics:

1. Most writers are white. That doesn't have to be a problem, if the writer is comfortable with writing characters unlike himself (or herself), and is capable of insight into the lives of others. Don McGregor was one of the best writers to ever scribe the Black Panther, and he gave us the first interracial kiss in comics (Killraven), despite his obvious scottish heritage.

2. Most fans are white. That makes it harder for monthly titles featuring minority characters to succeed, and without a monthly title, it's hard to really develop a character. Sunfire was a pretty good character, given that he never got a monthly title of his own, and it's a damn shame that he was recently sacrificed so that Rogue could get another power-up.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I've even heard/read one author admit that comic book scholarship is attrocious, because the fans don't seem to care.

We're gonna have a hard time getting others to care about our roots when we don't ourselves.

Partly the fans don't care. Partly the companies don't seem to do much to make them care. I love the DC ARCHIVES editions, but they're too expensive to really draw in people who aren't already intensely interested in the classic stuff. I became interested in the history of comics by reading the old 100-Page DC Spectaculars during the 1970s, which reprinted tons of old, classic stuff. Nothing like that exists in today's market, and I think this is to the detriment of the hobby.

I've often thought of doing some type of thesis or essay or somesuch, but the resources, for me, are so minimal that anything I put out would be reguritation and not an addition.
Maybe some others would be willing to work with you. It's a worthy cause.

EDIT to add more.
The extent of ignorance of the history of comics by today's fans really, really irks me. I'm not sure why, since I tend to expect people to be fairly ignorant of history, but the sheer ignorance of the medium is something I find quite dismaying. I guess it's partly that people not knowing the history - or having only a very skewed version of said history - is part of what makes comics today so bad. People who don't understand the history of the characters can be okay with revisionist crap like IDENTITY CRISIS, because to them, the characters are as new as those on whatever current teen angst shows are featured on the WB. They can think of awful, unskilled, trendoid artists as cool because they've never seen the beauty of a Gil Kane story, a Mac Raboy cover or a Hal Foster strip. They can be entertained by the same story told endlessly, because they haven't read enough comics to know how often that story has alreadly been told - usually better.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Should I be embarressed? Is he that big a name?
Darwyn Cooke is one of the handfull of people producing books at DC and Marvel today who puts out stuff I still enjoy without reservation. He's a masterful cartoonist with a great sense of why classic comics are cool, and the ability to draw on those elements today without being ironic, pandering or a copycat.

NEW FRONTIER was fantastic, and I think you'd like the heck out of it, Nate.

[Typo Lad]

Darwyn Cooke is one of the handfull of people producing books at DC and Marvel today who puts out stuff I still enjoy without reservation. He's a masterful cartoonist with a great sense of why classic comics are cool, and the ability to draw on those elements today without being ironic, pandering or a copycat.

Agreed.

His earlier stuff was a bit more "Mike Allred-y" but now he's got this kinetic feel of his own.

He did the art on the recent Catwoman revival. See if your local library has "Selina's Big Score"

[Lone Ranger]

Once the apologies start, where would we stop? And why is the comic book thing a bigger deal than the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor or the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

It's certainly not a bigger deal, but that does not preclude a company from addressing the issue - even if it comes up short of an apology.

Sunfire was a pretty good character, given that he never got a monthly title of his own, and it's a damn shame that he was recently sacrificed so that Rogue could get another power-up.

When you look back at how Sunfire was orginally presented (bitter Japanese guy more concerned with 'serving the Emperor' than helping mankind - see original series and Giant Size X-Men #1), it's hard to say that he was a great and well rounded Asian character.

Granted, I admit that I don't know how he has evolved over the years - and if Marvel found a way of making him a stronger character, hats off to them. Characters can evolve - even Ebony became a stronger character over the years.

When we look at the treatment of Black and Asian characters today versus the WW2 era, it is obvious that we've come a long way. That isn't to say that there isn't still plenty of room for improvement.

Unfortunately, many of the best examples of characters who characters who just happen to be Black, Asian and Hispanic (I am thinking the likes of Captain Marvel II, Connor Hawke (ok - half Asian) and Wildcat II) haven't had much success. That is unfortunate, but I enjoy those characters partially because I wasn't hammered over the head by their race/nationality.

[Nate C.]

Partly the fans don't care. Partly the companies don't seem to do much to make them care. I love the DC ARCHIVES editions, but they're too expensive to really draw in people who aren't already intensely interested in the classic stuff. I became interested in the history of comics by reading the old 100-Page DC Spectaculars during the 1970s, which reprinted tons of old, classic stuff. Nothing like that exists in today's market, and I think this is to the detriment of the hobby.

Well I wasn't thinking of the big two, here, Jeffrey. I think independent scholars who do it the old fashioned way, research, publish, promote, is the way to go.



The extent of ignorance of the history of comics by today's fans really, really irks me.

ditto.

Start with Focault and McKay and work your way forward.

[Nate C.]

Darwyn Cooke is one of the handfull of people producing books at DC and Marvel today who puts out stuff I still enjoy without reservation. He's a masterful cartoonist with a great sense of why classic comics are cool, and the ability to draw on those elements today without being ironic, pandering or a copycat.

NEW FRONTIER was fantastic, and I think you'd like the heck out of it, Nate.

I'm pretty much, (not altogether) a Marvel zombie, but if Jonathan Bogart wants to PM his info and send me a stack, I'll not say no!

[Slam_Bradley]

The audience is likely to already have the proper perspective. They/we already know that "these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks."

I doubt this.

I don't want to comic book companies or anyone else trying to give me something I already have, but denying me what I don't have... an apology - particularly from the perspective that the apology, an affective response rooted in regret and intent, is without meaning.

Such a discussion would be largely academic, which is not to say that it is without value. However, an apology has as much value as the speaker and the listener give it. If the potential listeners attach a great deal of significance to and want the apology, then an academic response, while valuable, would still fall short as a replacement.

I can get an "explanation" from anyone. It's only the representative of the offending party that can offer the apology.

Why do you need an apology for the portrayal of Japanese in World War II era books?


And just because the offenders may not be at Marvel or DC, anymore, doesn't mean they can't express regret over what occurred in the past... just like it doesn't mean that they can't express pride over what occurred in the past.

It's a two-way street.


I don't see where anybody is not "expressing regret" over what ocurred in the past. I don't hear anybody saying that the portrayals of Asians or Africans or Latin Americans were appropriate. I don't, however, think they need to be apologized for.

[Cei-U!]

Start with Focault and McKay and work your way forward.

You mean Outcault (Yellow Kid, Buster Brown). Foucault was a scientist.

Cei-U!
One of those people who care about comics history!

[west3man]

Originally Posted by west3man
The audience is likely to already have the proper perspective. They/we already know that "these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks.
I doubt this.
That says it all.

Why do you need an apology for the portrayal of Japanese in World War II era books? I didn't say that I did. Among other things, I've been addressing the main arguments against such a thing.

If it were a choice between an apology and actions which demonstrate regret, I'd go with the demonstration. However, it needn't be an either/or.

I don't see where anybody is not "expressing regret" over what ocurred in the past. I don't hear anybody saying that the portrayals of Asians or Africans or Latin Americans were appropriate. "anybody [not] saying that the portrayals of Asians or Africans or Latin Americans were appropriate" is not the same thing as saying they WERE in appropriate AND apologizing for them.

I don't, however, think they need to be apologized for. I wonder if any Asian CBRians have chimed in on the topic.

[Slam_Bradley]

That says it all.



If you're going to quote...quote in the context that it actually was written.

The audience is likely to already have the proper perspective. They/we already know that "these books were written at a different time with different values and outlooks."

I doubt this.

That was the way that I responded.

[west3man]

If you're going to quote...quote in the context that it actually was written.

That was the way that I responded.
I did put the wrong text in front of your response, but it was not intentional and I'm about to fix it.

EDIT: Fixed. Sorry about that.

[west3man]

If you're going to quote...quote in the context that it actually was written.

That was the way that I responded.
Why don't you think we know that those books were written in a different time and with a different outlook?

[Nate C.]

You mean Outcault (Yellow Kid, Buster Brown). Foucault was a scientist.

Cei-U!
One of those people who care about comics history!

Yes I do. Thanks, Kurt.

[Slam_Bradley]

Why don't you think we know that those books were written in a different time and with a different outlook?


I don't think that you specifically don't...but I think that a lot of people don't. They either don't realize that things were different or they don't think about it. I see far too many people judging past actions by today's standards to have any confidence that they have a clue as to what things were like at the time.

[west3man]

I don't think that you specifically don't...but I think that a lot of people don't. They either don't realize that things were different or they don't think about it. I see far too many people judging past actions by today's standards to have any confidence that they have a clue as to what things were like at the time.
This seems to be key.
*I* judge past actions by today's standards, but you don't think that about me.


The mere fact that they did it then, but don't do it now speaks for itself. Of course, it doesn't clarify precisely what the motivation for the change was, but clearly there WAS a change. I have a hard time concluding that a significant percentage of the target population would "have [no] clue as to what things were like at the time."

[Slam_Bradley]

I have a hard time concluding that a significant percentage of the target population would "have [no] clue as to what things were like at the time."


You apparently have more faith in your fellow men than I do.

[Dizzy D]

I thought they thought she was too bland. In fact, I think it was said out-right in an article or something, but I'm not positive about that.

The whole "Revanche" thing was oddly cool. It was an odd choice to make, but it resulted in such coolness. Then, they stuck a fork in my last longings for the original Psylocke's return when Revanche showed up in Betsy's old body... drawn UNexpertly by a Kubert. It was so ugly, as was a lot of his stuff from that series and time, that I embraced the new 'Lock all the more.

I still fondly remember how Psylocke looked when she first showed up, though, and how great the stories were. In fact, those are among my favorites.

It might be interesting if the right writer (Claremont?) somehow put her back into her old body or replaced the "new" Psylocke with the "old" one... maybe time-displaced. She'd be compared to what she used to be (or "would be"), maybe feel as useless as she did when she first showed up, then maybe could carve out her own identity. She tried to with armor she used during Inferno, but that faded away after a while.

Hmm... Now that I think about it, her recent resurrection could've been (or still could be) a way to bring her previous incarnation back - kinda like the anti-Siege Perilous.

Just some thoughts.


Risking going on an off-topic tangent (my dislike of ninja-Psylocke is well documented on the X-board), but I found it funny how useful Psylocke was back when she was not a ninja and feeling not useful. Since she became a ninja, she has been little more than eye-candy. Most of the fights involved her diving for an opponent and make a mistake by getting in close. Before that, Betsy knew she wasn't that strong physically and used her brain.

[west3man]

You apparently have more faith in your fellow men than I do.
That's the scariest thing you've ever said to me.

[Paradox]

Cei-U! leaves an opening:

You mean Outcault (Yellow Kid, Buster Brown). Foucault was a scientist.

Kind of a swinger, too. :p

THAT'LL never make it into the Digest! I'll bet howy likes my science jokes about as much as my quantum physics jokes...

[Paradox]

noljoner shouldn't apologize:

Should I be embarressed? Is he that big a name?

No, he's not. He's a GOOD "name", but certainly not a "big" one.

[Brad Curran]

No, he's not. He's a GOOD "name", but certainly not a "big" one.

I guess not. I wanted to disagree at first, but that's probably because he's pretty beloved by bloggers. As far as sales and profile goes, yeah, he's not in the Jim Lee range. Being the guy who's doing a Spirit revival might just help. Or not, since it doesn't tie in to Infinite Crisis.