X-Men: The End - Heroes & Martyrs #5 - Review, Spoilers, & Discussion!!

[Beast]

Another issue in the fine X-Men: The End mega-series. This one mostly deals with revealing the true 'Brother' of Scott Summers as well as delves into the mysterious origins of Gambit. All in all it was a good issue, even though not much really happens in the story other than the reveal. There's a lot dealing with the fantasies that are created by the Lady Masterminds to keep the captured X-Team under control. As well as with the children of Gambit/Rogue and Emma/Scott who were kidnapped by Gambit a couple of issues ago. But I'm sure most people want a in-depth recap of the Sinister/Gambit storyline. So I'm putting more detail in that. It was a good issue, can't wait for #6. I'm sure it's going to really have some big events in it.

We start off with an indepth recap of Sinister's past as Nathanial Essex many years ago in England. We see Nathanial and his wife Rebecca at their son's grave when Apocalypse pays a call on Essex. Offering him power in return for becoming his obedient right hand man. Essex accepts, being transformed into Mr. Sinister. Sinister continues his genetic research, now free of the moral baggage of his humanity. But Essex soon found that Apocalypse's immortality was not true immortality. He still aged, though far slower than others. Essex created himself a clone 'son', which he transferred his powers and psyche into. It goes on to say that he's done this several times over his long lifespan. This clearly is meant to explain the 'Nathan' boy that Scott knew from Essex's Orphanage. The one from Claremont's original plans was meant to actually have created Mr. Sinister and Gambit both as projections from his mind. This is a nice explaination that merges both canons together.

From the shadows, Sinister worked to influence the future race of mutants. Whether it was working with visionaries, renegades, or monsters. Such as working with the Nazi's in WW2 or with the High Evolutionary. Even influencing Charles Xavier and Moira McTaggart when they were at college. Sinister grew tired of being a flunky for Apocalypse though, and decided it was time to create a new version of himself that was more powerful. So by taking an untainted sample of his original DNA, he planned to infuse this new body with the powers and skills of those he met along the way. Sinister merged his genetic profile with that of Scott Summers to create this new more powerful 'clone body' for himself. But Apocalypse found out about it.

Apocalypse using his agents in the thieves and assassins guild of New Orleans had the child stolen from Essex's lab and placed it in the care of Master Thief Jean-Luc Lebeau, who raised the boy as his son. Of course the joke ended up being on both Sinister and Apocalypse, as Gambit would eventually grow up to be a hero. Essex finishes his story and explains to Gambit that he adapted his powers from Cyclops' optic blasts, making the two genetic half-brothers. And that with Gambit or Scott and either Jean or Rachel, he'll be able to unlock the secrets of human evolution and ultimate power.

Meanwhile the X-Team that were captured in the last issue are being controlled by the Lady Masterminds. They're being fed their perfect fantasy illusions, so to keep them docile. We get glimpses of happy times for Logan, Monet, X-23, and Rachel. Most of what we see happens from Logan's point of view however, which starts off with him on a date with Seraph. Of course Sabretooth shows up and kills Seraph and gets ready to kill Logan. Then the scene dissolves into Logan in bed with Mariko, on their Honeymoon. And just like the last time Creed pops up to kill Mariko and Logan.

Meanwhile in the containment room that's holding Gambit and Emma's children, we find the kids fighting. One of them appears to get hurt though, which brings the guards running. Of course it was a trick, and the kids attack the two guards who are trying to help. All seems lost until Gambit arrives, quickly taking care of the guards. Shaitan comes running and joins the fight, though in the end Gambit manages to injure her and get away. Sinister arrives, ordering Shaitan that the children who are fleeing with Gambit have outlived their usefulness. And may be dealt with as she desires.

As Gambit at the kids are fleeing down a corridor, Essex calls for a Transmat Portal to be deployed. Which sends most of the kids to a town in the middle of the desert somewhere. Gambit and Bekka don't make it through to the deserted town as the portal location changes, dropping them instead on the moon. And Gambit realizes why they never could locate the Neverland Concentration Camp anywhere on earth, it appears to have been moved to the Blue Area of the Moon. Meanwhile Meggan makes contact with the Emma imprinted Rogue, who quickly flys twords the location to recover the kids.

Wolverine's 'perfect' fantasy continues, as now Jean Grey manifests in his illusion. Except the fantasy version of Jean suddenly changes into the real Jean, who's communicating with Logan by somehow synching into his vision. Jean explains however that this is taking a great deal of her strength, and if she dies in his vision to Creed tha she'll die again in real life. Of course Jean's presence gives Logan the strength he needs to break out of the dream and free the others from theirs. And now they turn their attention on going after Sinister.

Those of you that guessed that we wouldn't see the end of Dani Moonstar are right on the button, as we see her return from the dead once again empowered as a Valkarye who seems to have the end of Mr. Sinister in mind. And the final page of the issue deals with the ongoing Mayor for Chicago storyline that has been part of X-Men: The End since the beginning With Kitty running against Congresswoman Alice Tremaine. The two are currently in a dead heat, with a huge undecided vote still up for grabs. Alice starts her side of the debate, asking the people if they want a human or a monster in charge. Which I'm certain is not going to be pretty when we pick up for the final issue of Book 2.

[fishtaco]

Best issue of the series. Chris wrote Gambit's origin brilliantly. Cant wait for next issue, and Im glad Gambit turned out good.

10/10

[Beast]

My spammy recap isnt all that great, but I agree. What I liked even better was Claremont explaining the 'Nathan' from Essex's Orphanage. Without trashing the now canon Mr. Sinister origins. :)

[Tag06]

Sounds excellent!

[fishtaco]

delete post.

[Beast]

Yes. This was also mentioned in Excalibur (Vol. 3) #14. Charles comments about their College Professor loving Schubert. And of course it turns out to have been, Mr. Sinister. :)

[fishtaco]

Yes. This was also mentioned in Excalibur (Vol. 3) #14. Charles comments about their College Professor loving Shubert. And of course it turns out to have been, Mr. Sinister. :)I didnt catch him saying that it was his college professor. Just the "doctor" at Aushwitz that Gaby saw. Im going to reread that.

[DDM]

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa waitaminute. I just reread this. SINISTER WAS XAVIER AND MOIRA'S COLLEGE PROFESSOR!?!??!??!???!!?!!?!?!??!??!!?!???!!?!?

Check out Uncanny X-Men #389. Xavier mentions that he cannot read his professor's mind. It's a rare phenomenon in which a normal human is immune to telepathy. Xavier also could not read Madelyne Pryor's mind, but Psylocke had no problem reading Madelyne's mind. Hmmm...

I'm glad Claremont clarified that the professor is Sinister; it explains why he could not read his mind.

[Beast]

I didnt catch him saying that it was his college professor. Just the "doctor" at Aushwitz that Gaby saw. Im going to reread that.
Charles comments in Excalibur #14 that Moira's Thesis Advisor played Schubert often and that they were very close. But Sinister confirms he's been pulling the strings for quite a while. And we see him teaching Moira and Charles both in a classroom in X-Men: The End. So it explains clearly why Charles couldn't read his Professor's mind in the issue that DDM stated.

Sinister: Come now, dear boy, is it really so hard to connect the dots? Essex became Sinister and in one guise or another has been a critical part of your collective history ever since. I settled for Moira MacTaggart at Oxord, but you, Charles, were the prize I really wanted. (Excalibur #14)

[fishtaco]

Check out Uncanny X-Men #389. Xavier mentions that he cannot read his professor's mind. It's a rare phenomenon in which a normal human is immune to telepathy. Xavier also could not read Madelyne Pryor's mind, but Psylocke had no problem reading Madelyne's mind. Hmmm...

I'm glad Claremont clarified that the professor is Sinister; it explains why he could not read his mind.Why couldnt Xavier read Maddy's mind?

[DDM]

Why couldnt Xavier read Maddy's mind?

Madelyne was one of those rare minds that are impentrable to telepaths (Xavier explains this is a natural rare phenomenom in which a normal human possesses a natural psychic barrier against telepaths). However, with Sinister invovled, it makes sense he would not want Xavier to read Maddy's mind. But then Claremont presented a strange paradox in having Psylocke be able to read Madelyne's mind when she was being hunted by the Marauders. Claremont could explain this since Sinister was not prepared with Psylocke's inclusion into the X-Men...

Find Uncanny X-Men #168-175. Xavier explains the phenomenon to Lilandra.

[xmanson]

Thank God I gave up on this about 4 issues ago...

[Beast]

Thank God I gave up on this about 4 issues ago...
You're missing a fun ride then, sorry to say. :D

[Titan Slade]

You're missing a fun ride then, sorry to say. :D

Hey Beast, you left out the part in your review where Sinister kills Cyclops.

[Beast]

Hey Beast, you left out the part in your review where Sinister kills Cyclops.
It's getting old, just drop it. Go beat Huzzah's dead horse about Baby Hawkeye. :D

[The Mirrorball Man]

You're missing a fun ride then, sorry to say. :D
Come on! It's geekporn, and you know it. Of course it's a fun ride, but only if you're able to identify all these characters, and if you're very well-versed in obscure Mutant continuity. Just reading your recap gave me headaches! :D

[Beast]

Come on! It's geekporn, and you know it. Of course it's a fun ride, but only if you're able to identify all these characters, and if you're very well-versed in obscure Mutant continuity. Just reading your recap gave me headaches! :D
Of course it's geekporn, but it's high class quality geekporn. And exciting to boot. To have Claremont round up all this heavy continuity and every character who has been a member or associated with the X-Men for 40+ years and tell a story is just candy with gravy on top. :)

[fishtaco]

Find Uncanny X-Men #168-175. Xavier explains the phenomenon to Lilandra.I have all that. I didnt think that was the case, though.
[QUOTE]Thank God I gave up on this about 4 issues ago...

[cosmicspidey]

I'm surprised no one's making a bigger deal of the revelation that gambit is the third Summers brother...

[The Mirrorball Man]

Of course it's geekporn, but it's high class quality geekporn. And exciting to boot. To have Claremont round up all this heavy continuity and every character who has been a member or associated with the X-Men for 40+ years and tell a story is just candy with gravy on top. :)
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against geekporn, but "X-Men: The End" is just so crammed up with continuity references that it's completely unreadable for this casual fan. ;)

[Titan Slade]

I'm surprised no one's making a bigger deal of the revelation that gambit is the third Summers brother...

And that Sinister is their real father.

[Beast]

I'm surprised no one's making a bigger deal of the revelation that gambit is the third Summers brother...
They are over at Comixfan. Let me just say, there's some unhappy Gambit campers over there. ;) :D

[cosmicspidey]

And that Sinister is their real father.

Only Gambit's...unless I read it wrong.

[Beast]

And that Sinister is their real father.
Sinister is only Gambit's genetic father. In that he used his genetic code to create Gambit as a 'son' of his. If you think about it, in some way Gambit is the son of Sinister and Cyclops. And that just seems sorta freaky. :)

[DDM]

I have all that. I didnt think that was the case, though.


Originally, Madelyne Pryor was just a normal woman who seem to greatly resemble Jean Grey. Madelyne's immunity to telepathy just further confirmed to Scott that Maddy was who she says she was. However, when Jean Grey was resurrected, Madelyne's immunity to Xavier's telepathy is explained by her even being unaware of her true origin since she did not know she was a Jean Grey clone.

[Shadowcat]

i HATED this issue everything was all over the place, where did rogue get emma's costume? and the whole sinister/gambit connection is disgustingly convulted hopefullly it was all a lie i don't like gambit being some test tube baby. and all of those children were annoying and predictable hopefully one of them dies, perferably one of gambits children.

[cosmicspidey]

i HATED this issue everything was all over the place, where did rogue get emma's costume? and the whole sinister/gambit connection is disgustingly convulted hopefullly it was all a lie i don't like gambit being some test tube baby. and all of those children were annoying and predictable hopefully one of them dies, perferably one of gambits children.

Rogue imprinted Emma in issue #4. And as for not liking Gambit's origin, keep in mind that this series isn't official continuity, just Claremont's "definitive" end to the X-Men taken from current continuity. Things can and will still happen that will contradict what will happen in the future of The End.

[xmanson]

It started kinda fun, but just got lamer and lamer...

I couldan't care less about the third Summers brother, I really don't see the big deal all made up because a throwaway line.

And really, in a mini called X-Men: The End, the last thing that comes to mind is the revelation of who the fuck is the third Summers brother. Really. That's why this have 18 issues? For stuff like that? No, thank you.

But fortunately, this is not canon, so Sinister can still come up one day and say he was just teasing Scott and finish this crappy non-plot.

[Titan Slade]

It started kinda fun, but just got lamer and lamer...

I couldan't care less about the third Summers brother, I really don't see the big deal all made up because a throwaway line.

And really, in a mini called X-Men: The End, the last thing that comes to mind is the revelation of who the fuck is the third Summers brother. Really. That's why this have 18 issues? For stuff like that? No, thank you.

Woke up on the wrong side of the coffin this morning, there manson :D .

[fishtaco]

i HATED this issue everything was all over the place, where did rogue get emma's costume? Rogue got Emma's costume last issue. Before saying you condemn the issue, why dont you read the previous issues to understand the story?
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against geekporn, but "X-Men: The End" is just so crammed up with continuity references that it's completely unreadable for this casual fan. X-men: The End is definitely not for the casual fan. It seems to me that only hardcore X-men fans would be able to understand the whole story.

[xmanson]

I've been reading X-Men for 15 years and read almost evrything that came out of the group, and surprise, this is still crap.


And I never liked Sean Chen too much... his art is too 2 dimensional for my tastes.. lacks depth.

[cosmicspidey]

And I never liked Sean Chen too much... his art is too 2 dimensional for my tastes..

You were expecting holograms?

[xmanson]

You were expecting holograms?



ohhhh..... smart... ohhhh.


:rolleyes:

[Brian M.]

This issue to me was great, I love this book and I love the story. The explaination about Gambit's past was really well scripted and thought out I believe. I'm so happy Cyclops didn't die, those of you who don't like him and who said that he dies in this issue just to get a rise out of fans of the character can go to hell.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

WOW! Sounds really cool. I hope this is all played out in the current comics.

[Tag06]

I thought it was funny. I mean, why would anybody around here know anything in detail about a comic book that is not going to be released for a few weeks, besides the creators themselves that is?

Some people get advanced issues or subscriptions earlier than others. :)

you're the best"
And she is.

Oh my Jean the best ROFLMAO.

[jeangreydp]

Oh my Jean the best ROFLMAO.

It is funny when you think about it. And by "it" I mean Jean burning your ass away.

[Brian M.]

Yea I still hoping for some Scott/Jean loving kind of a thing by the end of this series, I hope Emma gets it in the stomach from a Skrull and the kids all die a horrible death. This series is really one of my all time favorites, I lvoe the dramatics and the fact that there is meaning behind the story.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Great! Great!

CC nails it...

Now..

If there is a "X4" or "X5" Sinister will be in it.

Maybe he may be a surprise at the end of "X3"..

Of course, this could all be [speculation] a dream of Franklin Richards (who is missing from this book..and a nice "tie-in" to the public's re-introduction to The Fantastic Four).

I really doubt that this will be Gambit's origin though..

Sinister is a liar. It's a "half-truth/half lie"

[Beast]

It's not a dream by Frankling Richards. It's a heavily in continuity but not canon possible future 'End' to the X-Men. Franklin Richards isn't in it, because it's X-Men: The End not Fantastic Four: The End.

[DDM]

Chris Claremont did an excellent job intergrating Mr. Sinister's origin from The Further Adventures of Cyclops & Phoenix with bits & pieces of his own intended orign added into the synthesis. Mr. Sinister seeks to create a human with vast mutant potential; therefore, he created Madelyne Pryor to sire Scott Summers' child: Nathan Christopher Charles Summers, who has the potential to tap into the Phoenix Force. Once Mr. Sinister had the baby, he would infuse his own essence into the child to add more mutant powers to his own mutated genome. This is apparently what he intended when Sinister created Gambit, but Apocalypse abducted the child. The "Secret Origins" of both Sinister & Gambit are now clear. However, I do think these revelations could easily be considered canon if they are intergrated into Uncanny X-Men & New Excalibur at some point.

Danielle's transformation is surprising too. Instead of the power of the Vakyrie, Mirage seems to be tapping into Hela's powers herself.

Does Rogue possess Emma Frost's powers permanently?

10/10

[chicagokmc]

help me understand something about all of this:

if gambit is the genetic combo of sinister and scott summers, why isn't he more powerful?? is something mentioned in this story about gambit having powers not yet seen?

[For the Good of X]

The revelation of Gambit as the sort of third Summers brother comes as no surprise.

This story sounds deliciously convoluted and fun. I wish I could tolerate buying this, but Sean Chen's art is just atrocious.

[DDM]

help me understand something about all of this:

if gambit is the genetic combo of sinister and scott summers, why isn't he more powerful?? is something mentioned in this story about gambit having powers not yet seen?

Gambit has only half of Scott Summers' genes; the other half belong to Sinister. That's why Gambit is the half brother of Scott & Alex Summers. Sinister would have been more powerful in that body after he infused his essence into the new form. Sinister already has psionic powers, invulnerability, & can shoot energy beams from his hands.

[Beast]

Gambit used to be a great deal more powerful. But had to have a piece of his brain removed by Mr. Sinister to bring his powers down to a controllable level. It's rather obvious that while Gambit couldn't have handled this much power, Mr. Sinister with his years of experience could have easily handled it. By the way Gambit without the missing hunk of brain is insanely powered, just look at New Sun.

Powers: Complete control of kinetic energy in all its forms. This translates into flight, explosion of matter, and manipulation of time and space, including travel to alternate realities.

http://www.mutanthigh.com/newsun.html

[ibrakeforchinwe]

The revelation of Gambit as the sort of third Summers brother comes as no surprise.

Yes, no suprise, but I like the story. Very original and semi unexpected.


This story sounds deliciously convoluted and fun. I wish I could tolerate buying this, but Sean Chen's art is just atrocious.

Its not that bad, well cept for the fact that everyone(Except Magma) looks exactly the same and everyone has their mouths open and looks like they are constantly screaming.

[Shadowcat]

Rogue imprinted Emma in issue #4. And as for not liking Gambit's origin, keep in mind that this series isn't official continuity, just Claremont's "definitive" end to the X-Men taken from current continuity. Things can and will still happen that will contradict what will happen in the future of The End.


yes i know she imprinted emma but i doubt she imprinted her costume as well. infact the whole imprinting of emma and rogue made little sense to no sense.

[Shadowcat]

Rogue got Emma's costume last issue. Before saying you hate something, why dont you just read the previous issues to get caught up. It annoys me when people say they hate issues because they dont understand how something happened, such as how Rogue got Emma's costume. Pick up the trade of the 1st book, and then the first four issues.
X-men: The End is totally not for the casual fan. It seems to me that only the hardcore X-men fans here seem to understand the whole story. Thats fine with me, because this book is doing wonders for me.
:)


first of all the recap page mentions NOTHING of rogue and emma's transfer. second of all i read the issue in which the transfer happened which was equally horrible and it didn't explain how emma got rogues costume just her powers. i doubt rogue ran to the infirmary and tore off the comatose emma's costume put it on and ran out to find her kids.

[chicagokmc]

Gambit used to be a great deal more powerful. But had to have a piece of his brain removed by Mr. Sinister to bring his powers down to a controllable level. It's rather obvious that while Gambit couldn't have handled this much power, Mr. Sinister with his years of experience could have easily handled it. By the way Gambit without the missing hunk of brain is insanely powered, just look at New Sun.

Powers: Complete control of kinetic energy in all its forms. This translates into flight, explosion of matter, and manipulation of time and space, including travel to alternate realities.

http://www.mutanthigh.com/newsun.html

thanks for the link, i did not know any of this. when did this whole mess happen (gambit's first book)? so someone this powerful met his death by falling on a spear?? un-frickin-believable.

[streator]

thanks for the link, i did not know any of this. when did this whole mess happen (gambit's first book)? so someone this powerful met his death by falling on a spear?? un-frickin-believable.
gambit (3rd series). the vial sinister had was hinted at much earlier in the pages of uncanny and x-men. fabian revealed that the vial contained remy's own removed brain matter. new sun was a gambit from an alternate reality that did not get the brain matter removed. he destroyed his world/universe, and came to the 616 universe to prevent its destruction from the 616 gambit. he and gambit (fully powered at the time) had a pretty big battle, but yes it ended with new sun impaled on a statue's blade and him exploding.

[Flight]

Is that French halfwit Havoks brother too then? He wasn't mentioned at all.

[DDM]

Is that French halfwit Havoks brother too then? He wasn't mentioned at all.

Havok is dead in X-Men: The End.

[Beast]

Is that French halfwit Havoks brother too then? He wasn't mentioned at all.
That's because Havok is already dead. :)

[Flight]

Yes, thanks for bringing that up again. But I know that!

But when Havok was alive, was he Froggys brother?

[chicagokmc]

gambit (3rd series). the vial sinister had was hinted at much earlier in the pages of uncanny and x-men. fabian revealed that the vial contained remy's own removed brain matter. new sun was a gambit from an alternate reality that did not get the brain matter removed. he destroyed his world/universe, and came to the 616 universe to prevent its destruction from the 616 gambit. he and gambit (fully powered at the time) had a pretty big battle, but yes it ended with new sun impaled on a statue's blade and him exploding.

hard to imagine that as powerful as new sun was, his battle gambit wouldnt be anything but a one-sided curb stomp. but that's comic books for you.

[Dussan]

What is this, "The End" stuff? Is it a series now?

[DDM]

What is this, "The End" stuff? Is it a series now?

X-Men: The End is 3 6 issue mini series. It's an extended What If...? story.

[chicagokmc]

What is this, "The End" stuff? Is it a series now?

many of marvel's iconic books have had a "the end" tale within the past few years. for example, the end of the marvel universe was a starlin 6 issue tale, as was wolverine. punisher the end was an excellent ennis one-shot. i believe hulk and others have had them.

x-men has gone a little extreme with theirs, which i believe will be 3 6-part minis. the difference here i suppose is that they are trying to wrap up loose ends with the entire x-universe and need more room to tell the story.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

[speculation]

Sinister is actually Apocalypse..

Apocalypse is actually Sinister..

..in The End.

Apocalypse hid as Irene to "monitor" Cable..

That sounds like something the Sinister (post-Claremont) would do..



That's my prediction regarding those two in "The End".


Sinister just hasn't been this nasty since....

CC wrote the character exclusively..

[Beast]

Since Apocalypse pre-dates Sinister, and they're shown clearly to be two seperate individuals with different goals, how do you explain that one? And Sinister isn't being nasty, he knows that the X-Men and most likely all mutants are doomed. So he's just trying to save what genetic samples he can, before the crap hits the fan. He's already explained that in previous issues. That he's not involved at all with the Warskrull attacks.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Since Apocalypse pre-dates Sinister, and they're shown clearly to be two seperate individuals with different goals, how do you explain that one? And Sinister isn't being nasty, he knows that the X-Men and most likely all mutants are doomed. So he's just trying to save what genetic samples he can, before the crap hits the fan. He's already explained that in previous issues. That he's not involved at all with the Warskrull attacks.

Sinster is also a liar.

En Sabah Nur is as well...


My guess is that they switched looks just before the events of the series..

Somehow, Kitty's majoral candidacy is vital...

My guess is that Apocalypse would be very angry because mutants and humans co-existing goes against his beliefs..

The X-Men and The X.S.E. have grown to be accepted..somewhat.

Apocalypse will always be more powerful than Sinister..

Again, it's just a guess..


Otherwise, it's Stryfe and Sinister choosing to save their own and destroying the rest..

Claremont wanted to use some kind of story in which Stryfe and The Summers Family run the school as his kingdom.

[Tag06]

Oh boy. :(

[f4faith]

hard to imagine that as powerful as new sun was, his battle gambit wouldnt be anything but a one-sided curb stomp. but that's comic books for you.

The reason he wasn't was by that time Gambit had the part of him replaced by Sinister during his time travel trip in the past and his powers were up to that level as well. Being that they were of equal strength but New Sun was basically crazy, they used their powers on each other full blast and it ended up with Gambit tricking New Sun to his death and nearly dying himself. This left Gambit as the level of power he was use to. The story says he "burned himself out" but I would guess it is more like a mental block Gambit subconciously put on himself. Sort of like Iceman has not reached his full potential - that's Gambit state now.

But when Havok was alive, was he Froggys brother?

In the End - yes - if Gambit has some of Scott's genetic code and by default is sort of a brother to him then he would be to Havok too. Personally from the way it is described I would think the relationship is more like Scott is more like a father or uncle genetically. Not that I would wish Havok or Scott on anyone in my opinion. I think they are both halfwits.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

[speculation]

Gambit is a full Summers.

Their mother was pregnant with Lebeau when D'Ken's men attacked Corsair's plane.

or (to make them close in age to Havok and Cyclops)

Lebeau was stolen earlier..

Sinister made a deal with D'Ken.

[Brian M.]

Gambit is a full Summers.

Their mother was pregnant with Lebeau when D'Ken's men attacked Corsair's plane.

Sinister made a deal with D'Ken.


um doesn't that go against what this issue just said?

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Gambit is a full Summers.

Their mother was pregnant with Lebeau when D'Ken's men attacked Corsair's plane.

Sinister made a deal with D'Ken.

WHere the hell did you get that??!?!

[Sharcque]

just read it....I have big problems calling Gambit a "Summers" brother. He was cooked up in a pot!!!

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Gambit is not a mere "composite clone".

Marvel won't allow such a hollow origin for one of its "fan favorites".

That's reserved for villains.

X-Man didn't survive being a clone for long..

Pryor was writen as a hidden threat, and a villainess..

Sinister's function was basically to erase her, but she became too interesting of a character at the time.

I believe that Pryor was actually supposed to be revealed as a "resurrected Jean Grey" with no memories of her "prior life" (before Marvel's decision to create "X-Factor" without her).

[Sharcque]

Gambit is not a mere "composite clone".

Marvel won't allow such a hollow origin for one of its "fan favorites".

That's reserved for villains.

X-Man didn't survive being a clone for long..

Pryor was writen as a hidden threat, and a villainess..

Sinister's function was basically to erase her, but she became too interesting of a character at the time.

I believe that Pryor was actually supposed to be revealed as a "resurrected Jean Grey" with no memories of her "prior life" (before Marvel's decision to create "X-Factor" without her).
In "The End", he is.....we'll just have to wait & see for regular continuity.

And X-Man just didn't survive being removed from the X-Universe. Warren Ellis pretty much did him in. I loved the whole Shaman storyline, but sale showed that fans thought otherwise.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

The one thing about Gambit that puzzles me is his "Psi Block"..

The X-Men's Telepaths are too honorable to pry into the minds of new members, but he's supposedly tough to trace and "crack".

CC's Wolverine didn't trust him (maybe because he wanted Storm for himself then)..

Does Rogue know everything after she absorbed his powers (after AoA)?

She didn't seem to know if he was responsible for leading The Mauraders to The Morlocks..

[Brian M.]

The one thing about Gambit that puzzles me is his "Psi Block"..

The X-Men's Telepaths are too honorable to pry into the minds of new members, but he's supposedly tough to trace and "crack".

CC's Wolverine didn't trust him (maybe because he wanted Storm for himself then)..

Does Rogue know everything after she absorbed his powers (after AoA)?

She didn't seem to know if he was responsible for leading The Mauraders to The Morlocks..

She knows he led the Mauraders after UXM #350. I doubt anyone knows he's related to the Summer's line besides him and Sinister.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I just read the issue and Dani Moonstar at the end was awesome!!!

[Ever9]

So, is this why Gambit's daughter in Mutant X was as potentially powerful as Nate Grey in that reality? Because they were both from the Summers' DNA? If I lived in the Marvel continuity I would be really upset that I'm such a genetically inferior specimen from a really below the radar family. Because I wouldn't be a Summers. Or a Grey.

[The Fury]

I liked this book.

Nothing really any more to say, although the whole Gambit as a gentic clone of Summers DNA, was kind of funny.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

I liked this book.

Nothing really any more to say, although the whole Gambit as a gentic clone of Summers DNA, was kind of funny.



It's a joke of Claremont's.

I don't take it seriously..

A clone will never be as powerful as the original.

That's why Apocalypse rejected Stryfe in "The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix".

In The 616, Gambit might be an authentic "Summers Boy", or not.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

X-Men: The End is 3 6 issue mini series. It's an extended What If...? story.

Some people here really don't want to believe it..

[The Lucky One]

She didn't seem to know if he was responsible for leading The Mauraders to The Morlocks..

Probably because he wasn't. Hopefully by the time of The End, that deception has been revealed already.

As for Mutant X Gambit's daughter, as we know, Summers DNA acts as a catalyst, enhancing the powers of the mother; that's why Sinister is so crazy about it. I can't remember, who was the mother of Mutant X Gambit's daughter?

-D

[Bishop_Proudstar]

Probably because he wasn't. Hopefully by the time of The End, that deception has been revealed already.

-D

Agreed. Maybe, Milligan will clear that up...

[CodeMonkey]

I actually enjoyed most of this book, but felt the fight with Gambit and Shaitan portion went on a lot longer than needed.

In a book with limited space (and yes, I realize 18 issues seems like a lot, but when you're wrapping up all things X, it can never be enough) spending 5+ pages on the rescue of the children wasn't needed.

[Blackcat]

I like the book more and more!

I do not think it is a "What if....' kind of series, but more like a possible future like DOFP was.

I also think the revalations in this series are REAL revalations'.

So Gambit is a clone Sinister's and Cycpols' DNA that has to get a child with a Gery women..... hmmm, very interesting!!

I think Gambit is not as powerfull as Sinister course sinister is in fact originaly a human, so......., so he must be using his 'original' DNA!

He only pumped his live essence and so also his powers in the new body when he wanted to transfer him self into that body.

I do wonder why the 2 Mastermind daughters were both called ladies Mastermind. It used to be a Lady Mastermind (Helper of Shaw) and a Miss Mastermind (Brotherhood, and Banchee's X-Corps) in the past..!

.

[DDM]

I do wonder why the 2 Mastermind daughters were both called ladies Mastermind. It used to be a Lady Mastermind (Helper of Shaw) and a Miss Mastermind (Brotherhood, and Banchee's X-Corps) in the past..!



Claremont is referring to Mastermind II (Martinique Jason) & Lady Mastermind (Regan Wyngarde) (first appearance: X-Treme X-Men #9); each of them are half-sisters. Both possess the mutant power to create telepathic illusions.

[Blackcat]

Claremont is referring to Mastermind II (Martinique Jason) & Lady Mastermind (Regan Wyngarde) (first appearance: X-Treme X-Men #9); each of them are half-sisters. Both possess the mutant power to create telepathic illusions.

I know who he is referring to (I explained I knew who both women are!!) But I was wondering why he both calles them LADY Mastermind while they had different names: Lady and Miss before.

[DDM]

I know who he is referring to (I explained I knew who both women are!!) But I was wondering why he both calles them LADY Mastermind while they had different names.

Because they were encased in stone & slaves of Sinister.

[Blackcat]

Because they were encased in stone & slaves of Sinister.

Still, that doesn't really answer the question, why now both call them ladies Mastermind instead of the original names..

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The great thing about this issue is that it shows that Gambit has always and will always be nothing but a pawn to Sinister. Ingenius, Mr. Claremont. Just ingenius. :evilsmile

[Doom Hammer]

Chris Claremont has great ideas.

Great ones.

And a lot of these ideas have been shown through "future foreshadowing" in X-Men: The End.

For example, Gambit being a genetically enhanced clone of Sinister with a little Summers in him? Mwah. Brilliant. Really inspired, and I seriously now accept it as cannon. :D

But his execution...ugh. I love Claremont, but this issue just dragged on with bad dialogue and boring fantasy sequences. I seriously had trouble reading it. I know that sounds bad, and it's probably due to my being tired and grouchy.

But still, I love the ideas driving this title so much, I wish the actual series was just that much better. Just a tiny bit better, and it would be amazing. Mind-blowing. But it's not.

And I'm sorry, but Sean Chen's art is not helping. There's parts of his art I like, and othe parts I straight-up despise. His action sequences are often two-dimensional, and character designs are rather *ugh*-inducing.

...And just for the record, I enjoyed Book One. In its entirety.

[marshal99]

Sinister should be beyond and above human , rather than having to clone himself a new body everytime he starts getting old , he's like Maelstorm now ?

If his body is human , it wouldn't make sense that his body is practically invulnerable as it can healed easily from open wound , far more efficient than Wolverine's healing factor and also be able to shape shift like mystique.

[fishtaco]

Sinister should be beyond and above human , rather than having to clone himself a new body everytime he starts getting old , he's like Maelstorm now ?

If his body is human , it wouldn't make sense that his body is practically invulnerable as it can healed easily from open wound , far more efficient than Wolverine's healing factor and also be able to shape shift like mystique.He is what he is. If thats what he needs to do to survive, then thats what he is going to do. He ages, and so does just about everyone else. Most people dont have the ability to clone, and then transport their psyche into the clone.

[Ryan K]

I enjoyed this very much. I really really liked all of the Gambit/Sinister revelations and I hope they are, or do become canon.

[Brian M.]

I enjoyed this very much. I really really liked all of the Gambit/Sinister revelations and I hope they are, or do become canon.


The thing about making them canon is how are you going to do it that doesn't just make it a reprint of the pages here in The End? I wish it would become canon but I don't see how you put this into a story and not have it go down like it did.

[fishtaco]

The thing about making them canon is how are you going to do it that doesn't just make it a reprint of the pages here in The End? I wish it would become canon but I don't see how you put this into a story and not have it go down like it did.I already consider it canon. X-men: The End is a possible future. Everything that happens in this present story is non-canon. However, the origins revealed in this book refer to the past, long, long before the X-men were formed. This is a possible future. This is revealing was about the past.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I already consider it canon. X-men: The End is a possible future. Everything that happens in this present story is non-canon. However, the origins revealed in this book refer to the past, long, long before the X-men were formed. This is a possible future. This is revealing was about the past.

Therefore, I consider Gambit's revealed origin in X-men: The End to be canon. However, Gambit does not know about his origin in canon-time. Only Sinister and us readers do.


Exactly!!! All the things revealed about the PAST are now canon, but the things that happen in this future arent. Best way I've heard it put!!!

[xmanson]

It's not canon until someone in the "present" states it.

[Shadowcat]

I HOPE they find a way to retcon this mess of a story as it already goes against established continuity.

[DDM]

I HOPE they find a way to retcon this mess of a story as it already goes against established continuity.

One man's mess is another man's art. Chris Claremont is the only writer who can produce a cohesive story for the X-Men: The End given the X-Men's own convoluted history, particularly in the past 12 years when Claremont was not even writing the X-Men books. Now we can talk about all kinds of mess Claremont's absence created in X-Men canon...

[Bishop_Proudstar]

It's not canon until someone in the "present" states it.


...and they never will.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

I dont think Sinny is lying. He doesn't really lie does he?

He's pretty blunt.

[Bishop_Proudstar]

I dont think Sinny is lying. He doesn't really lie does he?

He's pretty blunt.

I'm sure that by the end of this series, his "story" will change..

[Tag06]

I'm sure that by the end of this series, his "story" will change..

It won't..............

[jarrod]

I actually like Gambit's origin story up to the point of Apocalypse's involvement. Gambit being a test body for Sinister works rather well and gels neatly with his early appearances as well as Claremont's original intentions for the character. The problem with Apocalypse being the one to orchestrate Gambit's rescue is that I just can't understand why he wouldn't have the baby destoryed if it could be perceived as a potential threat? Handing it to the New Orleans Theives Guild to raise it just makes little sense... I'd rather Apoclaypse wasn't at all involved really, and that the Thieves Guild had acted on their own.

[Beast]

I can see where that would feel like a problem. I just figure that he didn't care what happened to the baby after it was out of Sinister's hands. Probably figuring that the guilds would destroy the child. But when they chose to raise him instead, he just didn't really care.

[jarrod]

That'd be pretty careless on Apocalypse's part I think and rather out of character... what if Sinister regained the baby? Why not simply destroy it and end any potential threat outright?

I'd prefer maybe that Apocalypse had hired the Thieves Guild to ransack Sinister's base and destory his experiments, then they simply kept the child in secret.

[DDM]

That'd be pretty careless on Apocalypse's part I think and rather out of character... what if Sinister regained the baby? Why not simply destroy it and end any potential threat outright?

I'd prefer maybe that Apocalypse had hired the Thieves Guild to ransack Sinister's base and destory his experiments, then they simply kept the child in secret.

Sinister found out too late that Gambit was the child Apocalypse kidnapped & left with New Orlean's Thieves Guild. Therefore, Sinister sought to create an even more powerful body with Madelyne Pryor & Scott Summers' DNA in Nathan Christopher Charles Summers. However, Madelyne, as the Goblin Queen, took back her child & defeated Sinister to only attempt to sacrifice her son at the height of "Inferno."

Nathan Christopher Charles Summers was eventually infected with the techo-organic virus by Apocalypse then the child was sent off to the far flung future to be "cured." Eventually, he would come back to the present as Cable.

[fishtaco]

I'm sure that by the end of this series, his "story" will change..Why would Claremont spend an entire issue revealing somebody's origin, and then retcon it at the end of the series?

[Bishop_Proudstar]

I actually like Gambit's origin story up to the point of Apocalypse's involvement. Gambit being a test body for Sinister works rather well and gels neatly with his early appearances as well as Claremont's original intentions for the character. The problem with Apocalypse being the one to orchestrate Gambit's rescue is that I just can't understand why he wouldn't have the baby destoryed if it could be perceived as a potential threat? Handing it to the New Orleans Theives Guild to raise it just makes little sense... I'd rather Apoclaypse wasn't at all involved really, and that the Thieves Guild had acted on their own.

Wow.

Apocalypse softer than Nanny & The Orphanmaker?

Anybody that Apocalypse holds, he changes.

That's just another reason why I don't take this "origin" of Gambit seriously...

[f4faith]

That'd be pretty careless on Apocalypse's part I think and rather out of character

Since when? Apocalypse is not the brightest bulb on the block. This is the same moron who is supposedly one of the oldest and most power mutants alive and yet he lived in the past when there were few other mutants to go against him and the main weapons were spears and charriots and yet he couldn't manage to conquer the world then? But just now and then ages in the future might be able to in Cable's world (another baby he could have killed?) Powerful Apoclypse may be but smart and crafty he is not. He relies mostly on fortune and strength over brains and disgruntled other with powers to aid him. He probably figured that he could use the kid later or more likely as others have said, sent the assassins and thieves in through Candra to deal with the problem not thinking that thieves steal things not kill them and given their own propheses about the Old Kingdom took the baby to do with as they wanted. Probably wasn't later until either Sinister or Poccy realized he was alive.

I'd prefer maybe that Apocalypse had hired the Thieves Guild to ransack Sinister's base and destory his experiments, then they simply kept the child in secret.

That's probably a more reasonable way to interpret it.

[darkchylde7]

Originally, Madelyne Pryor was just a normal woman who seem to greatly resemble Jean Grey. Madelyne's immunity to telepathy just further confirmed to Scott that Maddy was who she says she was. However, when Jean Grey was resurrected, Madelyne's immunity to Xavier's telepathy is explained by her even being unaware of her true origin since she did not know she was a Jean Grey clone.
Maddie wasn't immune to Jean either, probably due to the fact that their genetics and powers were so closely linked

[darkchylde7]

Quick question, not from this issue though: At the end of Dreamers and Demons, after the Maddie/Dust fight which one of them survived. We only see a skeleton which is pretty inconclusive, and Dust robe covers everything so it could be either of them. I'm undecided but really hope that Claremont has more in store for Madelyne.

[Beast]

Quick question, not from this issue though: At the end of Dreamers and Demons, after the Maddie/Dust fight which one of them survived. We only see a skeleton which is pretty inconclusive, and Dust robe covers everything so it could be either of them. I'm undecided but really hope that Claremont has more in store for Madelyne.
It's pretty clearly Maddy. Given the eye color and various other hints. I have a feeling that she's watching over for Scott due to orders by Mr. Sinister to protect him.

[fishtaco]

Quick question, not from this issue though: At the end of Dreamers and Demons, after the Maddie/Dust fight which one of them survived. We only see a skeleton which is pretty inconclusive, and Dust robe covers everything so it could be either of them. I'm undecided but really hope that Claremont has more in store for Madelyne.Im sure its Maddy.

[MrBiggs7]

This may have covered but i'm on dialup and dont want to go through 8 pages. :(

Just got this issue today and I'm wondering if this serves as a retcon for Adam-X being the third Summers brother and Gambit being the official one?

[Beast]

This may have covered but i'm on dialup and dont want to go through 8 pages. :(

Just got this issue today and I'm wondering if this serves as a retcon for Adam-X being the third Summers brother and Gambit being the official one?
Well, Adam-X was never officially revealed to be the Third Summers brother anyway. The writer may have said that outside the pages of the book, but it wasn't stated in the books. Sinister never only ever said 'Your Brothers', not how many of them there were anyway. So it doesn't really matter either way. :)

[MrBiggs7]

Well, Adam-X was never officially revealed to be the Third Summers brother anyway. The writer may have said that outside the pages of the book, but it wasn't stated in the books. Sinister never only ever said 'Your Brothers', not how many of them there were anyway. So it doesn't really matter either way. :)

Thanks for clearing it up. ;) I guess I read about Adam-X so often as fact outside of the comics that I got it all mixed up. BTW, I love where The End is going. :cool:

[darkchylde7]

It's pretty clearly Maddy. Given the eye color and various other hints. I have a feeling that she's watching over for Scott due to orders by Mr. Sinister to protect him.
I hope so but that doesn't really make sense, if it is Maddy-Maddy and not Maddy-Skrull, because she hates Sinister as much as she hates Jean.

[LoneWolf21]

Well, Adam-X was never officially revealed to be the Third Summers brother anyway. The writer may have said that outside the pages of the book, but it wasn't stated in the books. Sinister never only ever said 'Your Brothers', not how many of them there were anyway. So it doesn't really matter either way. :)

The closest we've gotten on Adam's heritage is that he's been established as D'Ken illegitamate hybrid son, but yeah, Fabian did confirm outside the books that Adam was the intended brother.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Good issue. X:te vol.2 is a good x-series (unlike vol.1 which was average).
And it's a real Claremont series (unlike vol.1 which had the unpleasant flavour of a made on order project).

I liked issue 5 very much. :)

[TJ Shoun]

As for Mutant X Gambit's daughter, as we know, Summers DNA acts as a catalyst, enhancing the powers of the mother; that's why Sinister is so crazy about it.

So, potentially, Rachel Summers and Nate Grey could be more powerful than Jean.

Of course, I'm assuming the inclusion of the Phoenix factor into the mix distorts the comparisons... but at least on a "phoenix free" version analysis, both kids should be more juiced-up than Jean.

Or have I missed something that contradicts that?

And I really hope all this about Poccy, Essex, and Remy quickly becomes canon.

[Fastballspecial]

The revelation of Gambit as the sort of third Summers brother comes as no surprise.

This story sounds deliciously convoluted and fun. I wish I could tolerate buying this, but Sean Chen's art is just atrocious.


Not trying to be insulting here, but I really enjoy Chen's art and having met and discussed some of his work with him what do you consider good X-men art?(Lets exclude Byrne and Lee as no one else is in that category.) Just trying to get a sense of your art tastes versus mine. Not saying Chen is the best, but much better then most of the X artists in the last 5 years(Except Davis).

[ibrakeforchinwe]

So, potentially, Rachel Summers and Nate Grey could be more powerful than Jean.



YUP!!!!


WOOHOOO. :D

[DDM]

So, potentially, Rachel Summers and Nate Grey could be more powerful than Jean.

Of course, I'm assuming the inclusion of the Phoenix factor into the mix distorts the comparisons... but at least on a "phoenix free" version analysis, both kids should be more juiced-up than Jean.

Or have I missed something that contradicts that?

And I really hope all this about Poccy, Essex, and Remy quickly becomes canon.

Rachel Summers is a powerful mutant. As Phoenix, she nearly murdered another equally powerful mutant, Selene, the Black Queen, Rachel has fought the Beyonder & nearly destroyed the universe herself, she has has flown from London to NYC in a matter of minutes during "Inferno." Chris Claremont has been building on Rachel's power status for months now. Hopefully, with the "End of Greys" storyline Rachel will be even more powerful. Rachel is going to be the main focus in Uncanny X-Men in 2006.