JLA #116 - Good, Bad, and Ugly (SPOILERS)

[Expletive Deleted]

So JLA #116 is out today . . .

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

The Good: It's a great villain line-up and a great hero line-up. If this was going to be a new Justice League roster, I'd be happy. The fight scene is well executed, and there's some decent banter. The villain reveal at the end works, although I wonder if it really needs to be a full page splash.

The Bad: Identity Crisis, ad nauseum. Angst. Whining. You know the drill.

The Ugly: Despero. I've never liked the muscled up look for him. Great villain, bad design.

Anyone else?

[Karl J. Barnes]

I liked it. Everything, even the angst, worked for me. I am ,for long time, excited about seeing what is going to happen next month. And I loved the cliffhanger at the end, it was so old school.

[Polar Bear]

Loving D.C. in general right now, but I'm confused at some of Geoff Johns' choices in this issue regarding the Flash. First of all, when Ralph says, "What I wouldn't give for some gingold right now," Wally could have just gotten him a bottle in the time it took for him to say "You don't need it." But more troubling is the fact that throughout the whole issue, Flash never throws a single punch! Six pages of fighting, Hawkman's arm is almost removed, and Flash does absolutely nothing? (And the first panel after the villains disappear, Flash circles the city ten times, so it's not like he was powerless, either.) This problem really had an effect on my "willing suspension of disbelief."

I liked the Batcave scene, though. Pretty much what would happen, I suppose.

Hope Flash is better used in future issues and in Infinite Crisis.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Hope Flash is better used in future issues and in Infinite Crisis.

I know that might not happen, but everytime I see the word "Infinite Crisis", I fear for the Flash.

[LukeRed5]

I liked the Batman/Hawkman fight. I was shocked by Despero. I like that Catwoman is involved. I'd like to see Batman leave the JLA after IC and have him and Catwoman lead the Outsiders.

[pureclint]

Loving D.C. in general right now, but I'm confused at some of Geoff Johns' choices in this issue regarding the Flash. First of all, when Ralph says, "What I wouldn't give for some gingold right now," Wally could have just gotten him a bottle in the time it took for him to say "You don't need it." But more troubling is the fact that throughout the whole issue, Flash never throws a single punch! Six pages of fighting, Hawkman's arm is almost removed, and Flash does absolutely nothing? (And the first panel after the villains disappear, Flash circles the city ten times, so it's not like he was powerless, either.) This problem really had an effect on my "willing suspension of disbelief."

I liked the Batcave scene, though. Pretty much what would happen, I suppose.

Hope Flash is better used in future issues and in Infinite Crisis.


I was VERY dissapointed in the fight. Lets take the Flash thing one step furthur.

This is a team consisting of The Flash, Hawkman, Zatana, Green Lantern, Batman and the Martian Manhunter all of whom are on or near the top of Super Hero Mountain (Yeah Bats is only a "normal" but he can go toe to toe with anyone in the DCU and is part of the Trinity).

Yet who tosses out the most offense in the fight...Catwoman with a nod towards one Sonic Screem by Canary.

[jeffb1982]

who is despero

[Expletive Deleted]

A classic JLA villain. He was last seen in the JLA/JSA graphic novel from a few years back.

Despero (http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/villains/despero.html)

[Guts/Batman]

Loved it. All of if.

Cannot wait for MM and Despero to slug it out next month.

[Phil Kollar]

I loved the issue. Honestly, the first issue in this arc was okay but nothing special. I wasn't expecting that much from this one, and maybe that's why I was so pleased with it. But by the time I finished, I had that big dopey comic book grin on my face and was just very pleased. Can't wait for issue 117.

[Colossus]

"I hope that was worth it Batman...I'm about to give you ten minutes your never gonna forget."


Is without a doubt the baddest line I have ever read in 25 years of comics.

[cosmicspidey]

Maybe Flash was conspicuously absent from the fight because he's the last guy J'onn was able wake up?

[Polar Bear]

Maybe Flash was conspicuously absent from the fight because he's the last guy J'onn was able wake up?

Impossible, as he traded lines with Ralph and GL near the beginning of the fight. Good thought, though.

[cosmicspidey]

Impossible, as he traded lines with Ralph and GL near the beginning of the fight. Good thought, though.

Protecting the innocent bystanders, then?

[Lex]

The Bad: Identity Crisis, ad nauseum. Angst. Whining. You know the drill.

This is what kills this story for me. This should be a good, fun story about the Satelite Era JLA vs. the classic Secret Society of Super-Villains. That's what I wanted this story to be about... just that. But they keep bringing up the uninteresting plot threads from Identity Crisis and it totally kills the potential fun in the story.

I'm glad Identity Crisis has brought a lot of interest to DC, but this inability to move on has drained the fun out of books I used to enjoy.

[Sean Whitmore]

"I hope that was worth it Batman...I'm about to give you ten minutes your never gonna forget."


Is without a doubt the baddest line I have ever read in 25 years of comics.


Agreed. :D

I wish I could use it as a signature or something, but it loses much of its badassness taken out of context.


SEAN

[ww1971]

im new to reading jla so my question is, how do the villians know jla's identitys? and were they mind-wiped or just doctor light. and if they werent mind-wiped, why do they care at all?
thanks

[Expletive Deleted]

There was an old JLA story where this line-up of villains (or close to it) swapped bodies with the Justice League.

IDENTITY CRISIS used that story as a jumping-off point, with the villains discovering the heroes' secret identities and then being mind-wiped. The thing with Dr. Light wasn't that they erased his memory, it was that they changed his personality.

If you don't mind, I'm going to merge this into the other thread.

[IamtheRock3]

There was an old JLA story where this line-up of villains (or close to it) swapped bodies with the Justice League.

IDENTITY CRISIS used that story as a jumping-off point, with the villains discovering the heroes' secret identities and then being mind-wiped. The thing with Dr. Light wasn't that they erased his memory, it was that they changed his personality.

If you don't mind, I'm going to merge this into the other thread.

thinkin there asking why the other villans so piss when they just got the knowedge of the heroes ID's taken.

[Expletive Deleted]

thinkin there asking why the other villans so piss when they just got the knowedge of the heroes ID's taken.Messing with someone's memory is nasty business, even if it's a minor thing. And knowledge of their nemeses identities is definitely not minor.

Beyond that . . . these aren't exactly forgive-and-forget types to begin with.

[jade_nova]

Does the villians know the Flash's identity? At the time their memories were wiped Barry Allen was the Flash and not Wally West. They might know that Wally West was Kid Flash, but that would be it.

[Expletive Deleted]

Does the villians know the Flash's identity? At the time their memories were wiped Barry Allen was the Flash and not Wally West. They might know that Wally West was Kid Flash, but that would be it.You know, that's a good point.

Heck, how would they even know he was Kid Flash? The details of the original mind-swap haven't been fully explained (in a modern context), but you wouldn't think that simply knowing Barry's identity would instantly reveal Wally's.

And of course, there's the fact that, on top of whatever old mind-wiping was done, The Spectre erased everybody's knowledge of Barry and Wally's secret identities in Johns' own FLASH title.

[The Shadow]

I just read the issue last night and loved it. Can't comment on anything that hasn't been said already!

[Blueferret]

I liked it. Everything, even the angst, worked for me. I am ,for long time, excited about seeing what is going to happen next month. And I loved the cliffhanger at the end, it was so old school.


Exactly. I've been waiting for a JLA story like this for 60+ issues. Not since Tower of Babel have I been this excited about the JLA. I wish John's was staying on-board for the long run. I also like how they had the line-up on the splash page like they had in the Silver-Age. Nice touch.

[The Shadow]

Exactly. I've been waiting for a JLA story like this for 60+ issues. Not since Tower of Babel have I been this excited about the JLA. I wish John's was staying on-board for the long run.
Do you read JSA?

One of... if not THE (IMO anyway)... best team superhero book on the stands and written by Johns!

[Guts/Batman]

Do you read JSA?

One of if not THE (IMO anyway) best team superhero book on the stands and written by Johns!

This last arc was my first JSA arc. I will definitely continue to read JSA.

[nuclearman]

"I hope that was worth it Batman...I'm about to give you ten minutes your never gonna forget."


Is without a doubt the baddest line I have ever read in 25 years of comics.
:D

I enjoyed the issue. Hawkman put his beak in Batmans face and had it smacked! I really enjoyed that scene, I wish Hawkman was able to deliver a few hits back.

I don't know much about Despero but from the looks of him he's gonna give the Martian a hard time.

[Blueferret]

Do you read JSA?

One of... if not THE (IMO anyway)... best team superhero book on the stands and written by Johns!


Oh Yeah. I've been on board since issue #1 with JSA. I've has big problems with recent teams on JLA though. THe rotating creators doesn't do much for me, because it just becomes Legends of the JLA. I want the same team, month-in, month-out. I thought we had it with Busiek, but that didn't work out.

[Dennis K]

I liked the Batman/Hawkman fight. I was shocked by Despero. I like that Catwoman is involved. I'd like to see Batman leave the JLA after IC and have him and Catwoman lead the Outsiders.

Ugh. Another Bat-led book. I liked this issue of JLA by the way.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I was under the impression that Flash was generally the main guy when it came to crowd control during these big fights as he's the only guy fast enoug to get everyone out of the area before anybody gets injured. In these situations, he's defence, while other guys are on offence.

[Dussan]

Dude got his ass kicked by Batman for crying out loud. How tough can he be?

[bannermanonemillion]

Dude got his ass kicked by Batman for crying out loud. How tough can he be?

No, he got knocked on his @$$ by Batman. For a moment.

[Guts/Batman]

And he had a shield cutting into his upper body during the first half of the issue.

I would call that tough. Dunno about you.

[Captain Jim]

I absolutely loved everything about this issue. I *like* the fact that it's an IC tie-in, because those dangling plot-lines were simply demanding to be addressed.

Ditto ED's comment about Despero's current "look." Yuck.

And somebody help me out here. I was under the impression that Despero had taken a new name, become a good guy and joined one of the earlier JL incarnations. What am I missing here?

[Calamas]

This is what kills this story for me. This should be a good, fun story about the Satelite Era JLA vs. the classic Secret Society of Super-Villains. That's what I wanted this story to be about... just that. But they keep bringing up the uninteresting plot threads from Identity Crisis and it totally kills the potential fun in the story.
Get used to it. As I understand it, the whole point of this arc is to (finally) tie up some of those Identity Crisis loose ends.

[Lex]

And somebody help me out here. I was under the impression that Despero had taken a new name, become a good guy and joined one of the earlier JL incarnations. What am I missing here?

Actually, that was a really weird situation. Apparently, L-Ron - yes, Maxwell Lord's funny little robot sidekick - possessed Despero's body. I don't know how or why or how long that lasted, but he was a member of J'onn's JL Task Force that trained new members like the Ray and Triumph.

The real Despero has been a floating spirit for quite a while. I remember that he attacked Young Justice in an early issue and appeared in the JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice original graphic novel.

I'm curious if Despero got a new body or if he still has to possess people like he did Luthor.

[Guts/Batman]

Get used to it. As I understand it, the whole point of this arc is to (finally) tie up some of those Identity Crisis loose ends.

If you read Green Arrow it is the return of Identity Crisis.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Actually, that was a really weird situation. Apparently, L-Ron - yes, Maxwell Lord's funny little robot sidekick - possessed Despero's body. .

Waitaminit. What happened to L-Ron anyway. The last we saw him, he was still Max's sidekick until the end of the Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha era. Now that Max is all Mr. Black T-Shirt, what did he do to L-Ron?

[Lex]

Get used to it. As I understand it, the whole point of this arc is to (finally) tie up some of those Identity Crisis loose ends.

I'm very hopeful that this JLA arc will put to rest several plots that I strongly dislike in this post-Identity Crisis DCU. 1.) Jerky Batman 2.) Mind-wipe crap.

[The Dark Knight]

I gotta agree with past posts pointing out Flash's presence during battle...I mean the guy's almost as fast as the speed of light, i want him running and getting gingold for elastic, retrieving swords and slicing floronic's arm off, breaking matter master's fingers and stealing his wand, stuff like that. And this could all be done WHILE saving people. I understand that if they start doing that he'll seem so powerful, but at least indulge the readers a little bit. Makes the comic so much more fun.
I've read 3 websites dictating Despero's origin, BUT WHAT EXACTLY DOES HE DO? haha seriously

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I gotta agree with past posts pointing out Flash's presence during battle...I mean the guy's almost as fast as the speed of light, i want him running and getting gingold for elastic, retrieving swords and slicing floronic's arm off, breaking matter master's fingers and stealing his wand, stuff like that. And this could all be done WHILE saving people. I understand that if they start doing that he'll seem so powerful, but at least indulge the readers a little bit. Makes the comic so much more fun.
I've read 3 websites dictating Despero's origin, BUT WHAT EXACTLY DOES HE DO? haha seriously

Despero started off as a mutant born with a third eye that he used to first enslave his people, then commit genocide upon them. His third eye gives him mental and physical powers that are almost off the chart. Once he reached the peak of his powers, the only way the League was ever able to stop him has been through trickery and guile. You simply can't beat this guy in a test of strength or power.

Despero hates J'Onn in particular because he telepathically gave Despero his heart's desire--the complete destruction of the Justice League, the Earth and all traces of humanity from the universe. He's been holding a grudge ever since then.

As for the exact definition of his powers: Basically, he's as physically strong and tough as Superman, but as formidable as J'Onn when it comes to mental powers.

[powerforward]

issue was pretty good (writers do have a hard time coming up with reasons why wally just doesn't take everybody out before they can do anything), i'm really wondering what they do this time now that the villians have their memories back.

would love to see hawkman and bats go at it. off topic, if this is the carter hall hawkman, when was he in the jla? i'm really confused about who exactly hawkman is and what his realtionships are with people now. ( did he ever live on thanagar?

issue was solid, looking forward to the rest of this arc.

[Expletive Deleted]

would love to see hawkman and bats go at it. off topic, if this is the carter hall hawkman, when was he in the jla? i'm really confused about who exactly hawkman is and what his realtionships are with people now. ( did he ever live on thanagar?It's basically Carter Hall.

There's some mumbo-jumbo about reincarnation and Thanagar and all that, but it's basically Carter Hall.

[bannermanonemillion]

How much are ya willing to bet that Despero is possessing J'onn?

He's the one that actually lays eyes on the big D in the Watchtower. Earlier MM says he's going to "fix it" ("it" being the walking-on-eggshells situation between Batman and the League) and in the very next scene someone starts telepathically "repairing" the Secret Society villains. And then AFTERward J'onn shows up in Gotham to talk to Bruce.

Unless I'm wrong Despero has to possess someone to raise some real apespit based on his appearance in Virtue and Vice, right?

[Petertime]

Waitaminit. What happened to L-Ron anyway. The last we saw him, he was still Max's sidekick until the end of the Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha era. Now that Max is all Mr. Black T-Shirt, what did he do to L-Ron?

How could we have all missed it?
L-Ron is part of OMAC!

[Calamas]

How could we have all missed it?
L-Ron is part of OMAC!
Only on the surface. It was L-Ron who secretly protected Sasha from Max's mental attack.

;) . . . I think?

[Colossus]

would love to see hawkman and bats go at it. off topic, if this is the carter hall hawkman, when was he in the jla? i'm really confused about who exactly hawkman is and what his realtionships are with people now. ( did he ever live on thanagar?


Basically in the current DCU, Carter Hall has been retconned to replace Katar Hol in the silver age JLA stories. He joined shortly after they formed to help train them into a better team. There he developed a very close bond with Ray Palmer (which also used to be Katar.)

In essence they pulled a Martian Manhunter when it comes to the JLA’s history.

Carter is not a native of Thanagar, but he is a living legend to its people.

I think this is one of the few times a retcon makes something 1000% better.

[palaeomerus]

Whwn last seen L-Ron tore his own head off to avoid seeing more Elongated Man and Sue kissy face stuff...

[marshal99]

Despero started off as a mutant born with a third eye that he used to first enslave his people, then commit genocide upon them. His third eye gives him mental and physical powers that are almost off the chart. Once he reached the peak of his powers, the only way the League was ever able to stop him has been through trickery and guile. You simply can't beat this guy in a test of strength or power.

Despero hates J'Onn in particular because he telepathically gave Despero his heart's desire--the complete destruction of the Justice League, the Earth and all traces of humanity from the universe. He's been holding a grudge ever since then.

As for the exact definition of his powers: Basically, he's as physically strong and tough as Superman, but as formidable as J'Onn when it comes to mental powers.

Not sure of his exact origins in the old silver age JLA but he was never strong physically until he had a makeover in the Justice league detroit , he hates J'onn because he was one of the members of the justice league detroit who defeated him and wanted revenge since on him and his damn league.
In every encounter since , he has physically dominated J'onn on almost every occasion.

I thought Despero had been somehow seperated physically from luthor and has his own body now in Vice/Virtue ?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yep, in his intitial appearances, Despero was more the cunning mastermind villain and his head-fin was side-ways. Then, during the end of the JLDetroit era, he returned with the current head-fin and greater physical prowess. Then, when he returned again during the JLI era, he was as big as the Hulk and just a powerful.

[Deathstroke]

I liked the reveal at the end and the battle scenes but for some reason, this one just felt like it was run of the mill rather than exceptional.

[powerforward]

thanks that helps.

Basically in the current DCU, Carter Hall has been retconned to replace Katar Hol in the silver age JLA stories. He joined shortly after they formed to help train them into a better team. There he developed a very close bond with Ray Palmer (which also used to be Katar.)

In essence they pulled a Martian Manhunter when it comes to the JLA’s history.

Carter is not a native of Thanagar, but he is a living legend to its people.

I think this is one of the few times a retcon makes something 1000% better.

[Babylon23]

I loved this issue. First, it featured most of my favourite JLA members (I love the satellite era League).
Secondly, it showed us just how deadly the SSSV's can be. John's proved with the Flash's rogues gallery that he can make just about any villain seem threatening, and he does it again in this issue.
Finally, I'm happy to see Identity Crisis actually having long-term ramifications on characters. So many "event" stories are quickly forgotten once they end. It's nice to see a story that actually has impact months after it ended.

[Apathy Boy]

Loving D.C. in general right now, but I'm confused at some of Geoff Johns' choices in this issue regarding the Flash. First of all, when Ralph says, "What I wouldn't give for some gingold right now," Wally could have just gotten him a bottle in the time it took for him to say "You don't need it." But more troubling is the fact that throughout the whole issue, Flash never throws a single punch! Six pages of fighting, Hawkman's arm is almost removed, and Flash does absolutely nothing? (And the first panel after the villains disappear, Flash circles the city ten times, so it's not like he was powerless, either.) This problem really had an effect on my "willing suspension of disbelief."

I liked the Batcave scene, though. Pretty much what would happen, I suppose.

Hope Flash is better used in future issues and in Infinite Crisis.Heh. I had the same problem, only with the other team. All through the issue, I kept thinking, "Why the hell is this fight still going on? Shouldn't Chronos have zapped the JLA with the time stopper by now?"

Otherwise a decent issue. But I continue to fear for J'onn's future...

[TJ Shoun]

God, Bruce is such a prick.

How can he be stubbed up about what his "friends" did to him after what he did in The Tower of Babel storyline?

He betrayed his "friends" too - and this was during a time he had no recollection of Zatanna's mindwipe on him.

(Or was it? Have they ever told us when Bruce finally realized they took 10 minutes of his memory?)

Whatever - doesn't matter - Bruce is being hypocritical either way.

[Calybos]

God, Bruce is such a prick.
... Bruce is being hypocritical either way.

What else is new?

[JeffreyWKramer]

God, Bruce is such a prick.

How can he be stubbed up about what his "friends" did to him after what he did in The Tower of Babel storyline?

He betrayed his "friends" too - and this was during a time he had no recollection of Zatanna's mindwipe on him.

(Or was it? Have they ever told us when Bruce finally realized they took 10 minutes of his memory?)

We don't know when he became aware, but it seems likely he has been aware something happened for a long time, but that he only very recently put all the pieces together.

There wasn't any actual betrayal by Batman in "Tower of Babel." Yes, Batman developed counter-strategies for potential use against his teammates, but given the existence of mind-controllers, Red Kryptonite and numerous other possibilities, this can be regarded as a wise move. Look what Superman did recently under Max Lord's control, or what Hal Jordan did as Parallax, for evidence *why* it's a wise move. The problem was, someone else accessed his plans and used them against the JLA.

Then there's the fact that some level of awareness of the mind wipe might retroactively be used as an additional explanation why Batman felt it wise to have such counter-measures planned.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Then there's the fact that some level of awareness of the mind wipe might retroactively be used as an additional explanation why Batman felt it wise to have such counter-measures planned.

Although I don't know how directly they'll ever say it, I suspect they're going to blame most of Batman's past dickery on the mind-wipe and emerge with a more mentally stable Batman whose a little more pleasant to be around. The days of the socially retarded, man-child in a Batsuit are coming to an end. The Batman depicted in the movie will probably be the personality we'll end up with in the comics once the dust settles. Driven, determined and slightly cynical but not so obsessed and consumed by his quest that he's incapable of dealing with other people like an adult.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Although I don't know how directly they'll ever say it, I suspect they're going to blame most of Batman's past dickery on the mind-wipe and emerge with a more mentally stable Batman whose a little more pleasant to be around. The days of the socially retarded, man-child in a Batsuit are coming to an end. The Batman depicted in the movie will probably be the personality we'll end up with in the comics once the dust settles. Driven, determined and slightly cynical but not so obsessed and consumed by his quest that he's incapable of dealing with other people like an adult.

I sincerely hope this is the case, because the asocial, cynical post-DARK KNIGHT Batman has almost always left me cold. It's hard for me to have sympathy for an obsessive loner, and I'd rather see a hero who does what he does because he cares about people, as opposed to one who does what he does to work out his own issues. I'll take the Denny and Neal Batman from the 70s over the asshole in "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive" and "War Games" any day of the week.

I would love to see a Batman who is more a detective and less a case study for personality disorder.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'll take the Denny and Neal Batman from the 70s over the asshole in "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive" and "War Games" any day of the week.

The irony being that Denny O'Neil himself was the editor that allowed this happen. Bob Shreck's editorial tenure only continued this unfortunate characterization.

I dunno, maybe it was a reaction against the Neon Gay Batman from the movies. Maybe Joel Shumacher's Batman was go gay, O'Neil felt the need to macho up the comics Batman to the point that neither men nor women would have anything to do with him, let alone sleep with him.

PS the possibility of Grant Morrison writing Detective Comics has be giddy.

[JeffreyWKramer]

The irony being that Denny O'Neil himself was the editor that allowed this happen. Bob Shreck's editorial tenure only continued this unfortunate characterization.

I know. That has bugged me forever. I don't blame Denny so much as I blame post-Miller hacks, though. You know, all the guys who didn't get that DKR was supposed to be a *dystopian future* Batman, and who aped some aspects of that depiction while entirely missing the context and the point?

Then there's the fact that Miller-related BAT-books out-sold the old-school stuff by a wide margin. Grim and gritty ruled the charts, but it almost killed the Bat.

PS the possibility of Grant Morrison writing Detective Comics has be giddy.

Anything confirmed there? I'd absolutely love this.

[G_Man]

Although I don't know how directly they'll ever say it, I suspect they're going to blame most of Batman's past dickery on the mind-wipe and emerge with a more mentally stable Batman whose a little more pleasant to be around. The days of the socially retarded, man-child in a Batsuit are coming to an end. The Batman depicted in the movie will probably be the personality we'll end up with in the comics once the dust settles. Driven, determined and slightly cynical but not so obsessed and consumed by his quest that he's incapable of dealing with other people like an adult.

If this happens, I can actually find myself forgiving and even accepting of Crisis! :p

[TJ Shoun]

There wasn't any actual betrayal by Batman in "Tower of Babel." Yes, Batman developed counter-strategies for potential use against his teammates, but given the existence of mind-controllers, Red Kryptonite and numerous other possibilities, this can be regarded as a wise move. Look what Superman did recently under Max Lord's control, or what Hal Jordan did as Parallax, for evidence *why* it's a wise move. The problem was, someone else accessed his plans and used them against the JLA.

Then there's the fact that some level of awareness of the mind wipe might retroactively be used as an additional explanation why Batman felt it wise to have such counter-measures planned.

Sure, it was a wise move - but it was a betrayal of trust within the circle of the league.

Just going from Clark's bitch session at Bruce after the fact, I don't think they minded so much the idea or initial development of the protocols but rather his obsessive efforts in keeping it clandestine from the rest of the league.

Regardless, I see a retcon coming that'll explain away Batdick, and I think it sucks. As a huge ass, Bruce adds a great dynamic to the league and the rest of the DCU.

And really, isn't there a difference between Johns' Batdick, Morrison's Batgod, and Miller's antihero?

I'm not sure the Batdick version is such a direct outgrowth from Miller's DKR as you say, although I will agree that it's probably the odd foundation for it, because it was the most influential comic work of the past quarter century.

God, look at how it ruined Superman. :p

[Typo Lad]

Waitaminit. What happened to L-Ron anyway. The last we saw him, he was still Max's sidekick until the end of the Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha era. Now that Max is all Mr. Black T-Shirt, what did he do to L-Ron?

Hmmm.

L-Ron's gonna be the new Spectre!

[Guts/Batman]

I agree with Jeffery. I do not think it was a betrayal.

I mean, everyone in the JLA knows that Batman plans. That is just what he does. They know he knows that in the face of such power he would need a way to defeat his "friends" if they went rogue. They really shouldn't have been surprised that he had developed counter measures for them.

That said, the mind wipe was far worse than the events of Tower of Babel, IMO. Why I say that is because that the decision to kick Batman out of the JLA after ToB wasn't unanimous, the one after IC was.

The reason for the mindwipe and Batman's counter measures is the exact same, IMO.

[Guts/Batman]

Hmmm.

L-Ron's gonna be the new Spectre!

Who's L-Ron?

[Typo Lad]

Who's L-Ron?

http://www.geocities.com/amazing_tales/micros/lron.gif

[LtMarvel]

L-Ron is the little suck-up "yesman" robot to an invader named Kahn. Eventually, he became Max Lord's "yesman".

[K'Nort]

L-Ron is the little suck-up "yesman" robot to an invader named Kahn. Eventually, he became Max Lord's "yesman".

I love him.


Did he and Skeets ever interact?

[SuperManny]

L-Ron is the little suck-up "yesman" robot to an invader named Kahn. Eventually, he became Max Lord's "yesman".

Didn't he kill himself at the end of the second JLA Classified arc?

Fun stuff! :D

[Apathy Boy]

God, Bruce is such a prick.

How can he be stubbed up about what his "friends" did to him after what he did in The Tower of Babel storyline?

He betrayed his "friends" too - and this was during a time he had no recollection of Zatanna's mindwipe on him.

(Or was it? Have they ever told us when Bruce finally realized they took 10 minutes of his memory?)

Whatever - doesn't matter - Bruce is being hypocritical either way.Batman prepared plans to take down League members if they ever got out of control, but he never used them.

The Satellite League deliberately tampered with Batman's brain to cover up their own morally dubious actions.

I don't see where the hypocrisy lies.

[TJ Shoun]

I don't see where the hypocrisy lies.

You won't if they take this where I think it's going - which is a retcon explaining away that Batman's protocols in The Tower of Babel were developed in response to him becoming aware of the mindwipe.

Of course, his creation of The Brother Mark I system will explained away as a the same thing and he'll come out of the whole ordeal looking like a victim. :rolleyes:

I actually prefered Waid's original intention of making Batman out to be naturally untrusting and paranoid.

[Sean Whitmore]

You won't if they take this where I think it's going - which is a retcon explaining away that Batman's protocols in The Tower of Babel were in developed in response to him becoming aware of the mindwipe.


Lord, I hope not. There is just no way I can buy Batman being aware of the mindwipe for that long. Between that story and IC, he'd worked with Oliver, Dinah, and Zatanna too many times to never have brought it up.

I'm still hoping that Batman only became aware of the mindwipe around the same time Dr. Light remembered it.


SEAN

[trickster]

God, Bruce is such a prick.

How can he be stubbed up about what his "friends" did to him after what he did in The Tower of Babel storyline?

He betrayed his "friends" too - and this was during a time he had no recollection of Zatanna's mindwipe on him.

(Or was it? Have they ever told us when Bruce finally realized they took 10 minutes of his memory?)

Whatever - doesn't matter - Bruce is being hypocritical either way.

Bull. In case you actually were fair, he didn't "do" anything in Tower of Babel. He didn't use the countermeasures against the JLA himself, it was Ra's Al Ghul who did, which everybody is conveniently forgetting just to get a shot at Batman. Whereas if I still remember correctly, Hawkman admits they brainwashed him him on purpose, so that Light's mindwiping wouldn't be undone. So yeah, Bruce is a hypocrite and the League is "honest". With "friends" like that, who needs enemies? If they do the retconning, hypocrisy would be even more blatant, cos back then after ToB they wanted to vote him out. So they can do more mindwiping undisturbed, perhaps?

[Phoney Bone]

Didn't he kill himself at the end of the second JLA Classified arc?

Fun stuff! :D

Guy Gardner knocked his head off when L-Ron made a gay joke at Guy's expense. With head dangling by a few wires, L-Ron said it was worth it. :D

[DMike]

If they do the retconning, hypocrisy would be even more blatant, cos back then after ToB they wanted to vote him out. So they can do more mindwiping undisturbed, perhaps?

The only problem with that theory is that none of the Power Pact were still members of the JLA at the time of the Tower of Babel storyline.

[TJ Shoun]

Bull. In case you actually were fair, he didn't "do" anything in Tower of Babel. He didn't use the countermeasures against the JLA himself, it was Ra's Al Ghul who did, which everybody is conveniently forgetting just to get a shot at Batman. Whereas if I still remember correctly, Hawkman admits they brainwashed him him on purpose, so that Light's mindwiping wouldn't be undone. So yeah, Bruce is a hypocrite and the League is "honest". With "friends" like that, who needs enemies? If they do the retconning, hypocrisy would be even more blatant, cos back then after ToB they wanted to vote him out. So they can do more mindwiping undisturbed, perhaps?


I know, chill out. But there's two sides to every story.

I'll repeat this just for the record:

It wasn't that he created the protocols that offended the League so much as it was the fact that he kept them hidden and created them in a clandestine fashion. This is what fostered the mistrust -- but yeah, I can kinda see Batman's side of things too.


Lord, I hope not. There is just no way I can buy Batman being aware of the mindwipe for that long...

Especially not after reading JLA 117!

*Spoilers for those of you who haven't got it yet*










Supes shows up and reveals that he knew about the Dr. Light mindwipe as well as the Batman mindwipe because Bats told him about them both. Apparently that's why Bruce has just (surprise!) quit the League.

So, if Batman created the Brother Mark I/OMAC system in response to the betrayal of his friends in the JLA (which is what Countdown suggested), then we can assume that Bats has known for some time now.

Then why is he just now quitting the League?

[trickster]

I know, chill out. But there's two sides to every story.

I'll repeat this just for the record:

It wasn't that he created the protocols that offended the League so much as it was the fact that he kept them hidden and created them in a clandestine fashion. This is what fostered the mistrust -- but yeah, I can kinda see Batman's side of things too.

Yeah, but then what point would there be in having those countermeasures? If they suddenly turned evil or became mind-controlled, possessed or whatever, what's to stop them from beating the crap out of Batman so they can find out what the countermeasures are and how to disable them?

[kane]

I'll repeat this just for the record:

It wasn't that he created the protocols that offended the League so much as it was the fact that he kept them hidden and created them in a clandestine fashion. This is what fostered the mistrust -- but yeah, I can kinda see Batman's side of things too.



I think, it was okay Bruce kept the tower of babylon protocols hiden. This were plans to fight a league which is controlled by a telepath etc.

What senses would it make for him to say: "Btw. in case you get nuts, i can stop you with kryptonite, nanobots etc". Someone who would take over their bodies or a telepath would know it too then.

[Sandy Hausler]

We don't know when he became aware, but it seems likely he has been aware something happened for a long time, but that he only very recently put all the pieces together.

There wasn't any actual betrayal by Batman in "Tower of Babel." Yes, Batman developed counter-strategies for potential use against his teammates, but given the existence of mind-controllers, Red Kryptonite and numerous other possibilities, this can be regarded as a wise move. Look what Superman did recently under Max Lord's control, or what Hal Jordan did as Parallax, for evidence *why* it's a wise move. The problem was, someone else accessed his plans and used them against the JLA.

Then there's the fact that some level of awareness of the mind wipe might retroactively be used as an additional explanation why Batman felt it wise to have such counter-measures planned.

Forget about Tower of Babel. What about the whole OMAC fiasco. Batman has a lot more to answer for than the rest of the JLA put together. (And I personally think they were right to do what they did, setting aside only Dr. Light, and even that is debateable because it's still not clear what exactly they did to him.)

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

I sincerely hope this is the case, because the asocial, cynical post-DARK KNIGHT Batman has almost always left me cold. It's hard for me to have sympathy for an obsessive loner, and I'd rather see a hero who does what he does because he cares about people, as opposed to one who does what he does to work out his own issues. I'll take the Denny and Neal Batman from the 70s over the asshole in "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive" and "War Games" any day of the week.

I would love to see a Batman who is more a detective and less a case study for personality disorder.

Amen, brother.

Sandy Hausler

[trickster]

Yeah, I wanna see a Batman that "pays his taxes, and helps Alfred take out the garbage". Cos I'd really like to see a lovely George Clooney style Batman and Batman&Robin the movie type relationship with Oracle. Bleh.