Casualties after Claremont

[Plym]

Reading some threads from the past week, alot of members have been discussing how some writers have messed up their favourite characters. All of these arguments seem to stem from the point of Claremont's leaving the X-Titles.
I wondered who you all thought was the most wrecked character of the 90's though? :)

Magneto Made a cry for attention by forming Avalon and being treated like a God. He then crashed a funeral before having a showdown with his rival where his mind was mushed. Enter a clone *shudder* and then some awful plot about secretly being Erik the Red and putting Remy LeBeau on trial. Psycho Magneto from the early 90's was back, and he was given Genosha before kidnapping Xavier and eventually being stabbed by Wolverine. The Master of Magnetism then apparently dies in the Sentinel Destruction of Genosha before disguising himself as Xorn and taking New York.

Psylocke After Claremont left the X-Books, Betsy suddenly found herself attracted to Scott. She and Jean fought it out for the 'hunk' at the same time that Kwannon entered the scene and claimed our Betsy was an imposter. Kwannon then died of the Legacy Virus and Psylocke was mauled by Sabretooth which led to the Crimson Dawn plot where she acquired shadow powers. A relationship with Warren and a showdown with the Shadow King later, Betsy then (amusingly) swapped powers with Jean Grey and got into a relationship with Thunderbird III . Shortly after she was stabbed by a 2-star villain. She's currently pushing daisies.

The Rasputin Family Not much to say on Illyana's fate except she came to live at the X-Mansion much younger than her NM self, and contracted the Legacy Virus. She then died and her funeral was interrupted by a competitor of this poll. Mikhail showed up and wasn't verey interesting at all. He was so uninteresting that I can't remember anything of him except when he was rescued out of that dimension he was in, in his first arc. Was he one of the Twelve? Collosus on the other hand, having thought he lost his sibnlings, defected to the Acolytes before it all came crashing down. He was befriended by Callisto and joined Excalibur for a bit before coming home to the X-Men, having no plot of his own and is then randomly killed to cure a plot that people were trying to put to the back of their minds.

Rogue and Gambit With Jean now dead, Rogue and Remy can step forward as most eye roll worthy X-Couple. Their on-off relationship got very stale, very quickly. He appeared to be married, and she ran off with a Magneto clone as soon as it appeared. Constant whinging of her powers and overuse of the word sugah never helped Rogue much either. You don't need to say anymore than Uncanny X-Men 350 for Gambit

Most X-Villains Poor Apocalypse. He was only cool in the 90's when he was set in an alternate universe. Sinister popped up for a few years mentioning the words 'Summers' every issue before disappearing completely. Sebastian Shaw was killed by his own son then brought back and shamelessly got beat by X-Force. According to Grant Morrison, he now has telepathy. See above for Magneto. Emma Frost seems to be the only Claremont villain who came out smelling of roses from the 90's. And no bad guy created in that era has stood the test of time either. Stryfe? Phalanx? Onslaught? Bastion?

Those are some of my choices :) Feel free to add some of your own or share opinions

[For the Good of X]

I'm supposed to pick just one?

They were all butchered. That's suffering enough.

[Christopher O]

I'm supposed to pick just one?

They were all butchered. That's suffering enough.
Yeah, they were, along with several others.

[Ryan K]

I hate you for making me pick one, but I went with the Rasputins.

Magik and Colossus were among my favorite characters and I can't think of any persons in the x-universe who deserved their collective fates.

Some of the others listed at least had a moment or two post-Claremont. Not many though. Colossus and Magik got the shaft almost immediately though and the suffering never stopped.

[lune noire]

I agree. It is criminal to pick just one, but I'm going to go with Psylocke. If I had gone thru all the power changes, body swapping, personality transplants, and @$$whuppings she did, I would have thrown myself on Vargas' sword too. :mad:

[Plym]

I'm sorry, I didn't think to make mutiple choice... :( Don't hate me!
I picked Magneto. His characterization in the 90's is still having repercussions to this day

[Mariah]

Oh, i know, i made a post about how badly the Rasputin's we're treated when Scott Lobdell got ahold of them...but i'd have to agree...sigh, i'm still awaiting the return of my favorite villians The Hellfire Club...(btw, I think the only reason Emma is on the team is to be a plant into the X-Men, and try to destroy it from the inside out.)

[shadowed]

i'm still awaiting the return of my favorite villians The Hellfire Club...(btw, I think the only reason Emma is on the team is to be a plant into the X-Men, and try to destroy it from the inside out.)

Hmm, that's the idea in my mind, you can never trust an old villain can you? ;)

About the poll, I dunno much about those past issues to compare so I will just skip it and say "Psylocke" wasn't a casuality but CC should have kept writing her!

[Jack Flash]

easily the Rasputins.

Moms and Dad died
Magik was a toddler then diseased then killed
Piotr was a bad guy then committed suicide
Mikhael came back from the dead and then disappeared after the 12

[spoon_jenkins]

I also wish I could pick more than one. I picked Rogue and Gambit (even though the Rasputins have been ruined) because there hasn't been much attention paid to how they've been wrecked so far in the thread. But those choices are 1 and 2.

Gambit was a enigmatic character and had some potential to be taken in a number of connections, but he was turned into someone with one of the biggest contingents of haters. I think the mystery (and the notion that he could be a spy or traitor) was taken away too quickly, and everyone in the Marvel Universe seemed to have met him in the past.

Rogue is one of my favorite characters in the original Claremont era. She was basically turned into a loser. She lost her backbone, her spunk, her determination, and her intelligence. She pined for Gambit like he was a Tiger Beat cover boy and became an appendage to him rather than her own woman. She whined incessantly.

Of course, the Rasputins have been dealt with by several folks. Colossus's betrayal was such a crock. The real Petey Pureheart would be just about the last person to betray the team.

[chicainery]

easily the Rasputins.

Moms and Dad died
Magik was a toddler then diseased then killed
Piotr was a bad guy then committed suicide
Mikhael came back from the dead and then disappeared after the 12

Yeah, the Rasputin family was what I voted for. Poor, poor Illyana. I miss her so. Piotr was a great X-man and there could be many many more stories starring him. What a shame. I still hold out hope that the real? Magik will emerge from limbo someday.

[The Phoenix]

The readers.

[Huzzah!]

well to be far the rasputins suffering was ended pretty quick.

[nooocandy]

great thread Plym. I'd have to go for the X-villians. They all got pretty much stiffed in the 90's, all characterisation going out the window and storylines becoming tired and dull and repetitive. Oh look, there's Mr. Sinister....

"Hmmm...Summers...I'm mysterious...ohh, ahhh....hello Remy, remember me, I am the man of rubbish retcons...mmm..summers and grey...Gambit...transform people...genes...gene...jean grey..I'm so mysterious"

Hmm, wonder what Sinister was on about, he is so mysterious, actually no, he's just another messed up villian.

[Sabre]

I voted for the previous X-villains: Magneto and Mystique became boring psychopaths, the Hellions were mostly killed off, Pyro spent years suffering pointlessly with Legacy and then died, Mastermind croaked from Legacy, the Hellfire Club was replaced with a bunch of inferior new members...and so on.

[MDactor1980]

I went with other. My vote went to all the creators who thought they had to dream up some new character, instead of just using the excessive amount of pre-existing characters. We wound up getting some fabulously lame characters... my main picks being Marrow, Maggott, Mondo, Joseph & any other clone for that matter, and anyone else who was a mediocre copy of another character.

[Plym]

The readers. Heh :) Good one The Phoenix
Another character I think got a bum deal in the 90's was Professor X.
The Onslaught Saga really dented his character for a little while. I mean, Cerebro for a 6 part story as a badguy? C'mon.
Where was Prof X during Claremont's return to the book? I can't quite remember him being in the books :confused:

[Flight]

Thinking about it, can anyone think of a character who was created in the 90's and has stood the test of time?!!!!
I can only think of Husk!! And she's gone AWOL now!

Cry Husk~!!!

[Ryan K]

Thinking about it, can anyone think of a character who was created in the 90's and has stood the test of time?!!!!
I can only think of Husk!! And she's gone AWOL now!

Cry Husk~!!!

Does Bishop count? I think he was created '91-'92 but I don't remember. Other than that I'm at a loss.

[venuscameback]

Thinking about it, can anyone think of a character who was created in the 90's and has stood the test of time?!!!!
I can only think of Husk!! And she's gone AWOL now!

Cry Husk~!!!

Chamber


DLW

[Vector]

Thinking about it, can anyone think of a character who was created in the 90's and has stood the test of time?!!!!
I can only think of Husk!! And she's gone AWOL now!

Cry Husk~!!!


Love him or hate him, Gambit has stood the test of time.

[Flight]

Gambit was created by Claremont....

[Vector]

Gambit was created by Claremont....

Yeah... I know... He was also created in the 90's. I thought that was the point, guess I was wrong.

[DDM]

Did Claremont create Bishop? Otherwise, I don't know why he gravitated to the character. Prior to X-Treme X-Men, Bishop was the double cliche of being from an alternate future Earth a la Rachel Summers, Cable as well as being a angry black man. Claremont peeled of this away immediately to focus on the law enforcement aspect of Bishop to discover a personality to did exist underneath the cliche clutter.

[newscott]

And hey, Claremont is the one who killed Betsy, so that should't be listed in post-Claremont blues.

[Plym]

And hey, Claremont is the one who killed Betsy, so that should't be listed in post-Claremont blues. Well, I didn't really mean because of her death. :)
I meant the whole Kwannon thing, then Sabretooth mauling her and gaining the Crimson Dawn powers and then just disappearing due to a fight with the Shadow King.
She got a bum deal when Claremont left.

[Mr. Jip]

The readers.

heehhee.

Plym, lovely 90s summaries of the X-Men. ;)
...But i feel that you should've given us an ALL option to vote on. :rolleyes:

They've all be butchered, & while the Rasputins, as a family, were the worst tragedy, Psylocke was screwed up most, in terms of sheer ridiculousness.
i voted for poor Miss Braddock. :(

[Kirayoshi]

Y'know who suffered most in the 90s? I'll tell ya who suffered most in the 90s.

Kitty Pryde.

Let's look at the scoreboard; Best friend #1(Illyana), reverted to being a kid, then died of the Legacy Virus.

Best friend #2(Rachel), lost in time.

First love(Piotr), went nuts, joined the enemy camp, came back, still nuts, then committed suicide.

Other friends(Moira, Doug, Brian, Meggan) either dead or presumed dead for a time.

Boyfriend(Pete Wisdom), progressively became a bigger jerk, then bailed.

Parental figure(Courtney Ross), betrayed her.

Father, died in Genosha.

Yeah, I'd say that Kitty got dealt a pretty sucky hand. But Rachel's back and Kitty's returned to the good fight, wiser and stronger than ever.

Whatta gal!

[Dussan]

Did Claremont create Bishop? Otherwise, I don't know why he gravitated to the character. Prior to X-Treme X-Men, Bishop was the double cliche of being from an alternate future Earth a la Rachel Summers, Cable as well as being a angry black man. Claremont peeled of this away immediately to focus on the law enforcement aspect of Bishop to discover a personality to did exist underneath the cliche clutter.

Created by Whilce Potracio and Claremont, I believe.

So far only Whilce was able to draw Bishop correctly.

But yeah, he has persevered. Actually, he hasn't until Claremont came back. How many mini-series has Bishop had anyway?

Bishop
X.S.E.
That one series when he was in a alternate dimension
District X
Gambit & Bishop

Damn, is that a record? In 13 years he has had 5 comic books series since joining the X-Men.

[Christopher O]

Created by Whilce Potracio and Claremont, I believe.

I pretty sure Claremont didn't create Bishop. He wasn't on Uncanny when Bishop showed up. At that point, it was Whilce (plotter and penciler) and John Byrne (scripter).

Anyway, the Rasputins got my vote. They were really just mangled, as was Psylocke. Then again, most of the characters were either wallpaper or horrid messes. Those were the options.

[Stagier]

i am pretty sure that bishop goes to whilce and claremont as well. it might be credited in the first bishop mini with pacheco art. gambit was claremont and jim lee if i remember correctly.
as for 90's characters that are around, Jubilee, she has her own series. Frost being good should count as a new character, no? Blink, a version anyways. marrow was around.
is that it?

[Christopher O]

i am pretty sure that bishop goes to whilce and claremont as well.

I'm pretty certain Claremont had nothing to do with Bishop. Portacio was plotter and penciler of Uncanny at the time of Bishop's first appearance, and Byrne was scripter. Look here: http://uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1583

I'm pretty sure that Whilce, alone, created Bishop. Anyway, this is off-topic. Then again, Portacio's run was Post-Claremont (on Uncanny, anyway), so maybe it's not so off-topic. It was a bad run--really bad.

[Frank]

The Colossus character was hurt a lot(punched Peter Wisdom in Excalibur, became a villain, then good again, then dead).

BUT hands-down the character that was most damaged because of Claremont`s departure was GAMBIT. Bar-none. Claremont and Jim Lee`s Gambit was cool as Hell, he was like Vampire Lestat, a rogue who enjoyed life, who would outsmart you with a smirk. And you didn`t know where he stood. The character I saw a few months later under Nicieza and Lobdell was just a typical pretty-boy hero, with a troubled teenager personality. The dialogues made the character miserable "oh no I have a troubled past, what am i gonna do!". And this is the Gambit we`ve had all these years since i`m so sorry to say.

Same thing with Rogue. It seems like the writers over the years missed the boat so much on these two characters; they didn`t get them, only saw them as a couple and figured that`s what they were just two young mutants that were in love and were good-looking. But years before that ROGUE WAS KICKASS! She was this hit-first, talk second, southern tomboy gal with always a sarcastic line or two before and after she would throw a punch. And her troubled past and the schizophrenia created by the people she absorbed like Ms. Marvel added to femme-noir appeal of the character.

Such great characters, so crap now. :(

[zonzorp]

Who suffered most in the post-Claremont 90s? Every pre-existing character other than Emma Frost.

[Huzzah!]

I never would have thought to list Gambit but good points

[Plym]

Alot of the X-Books are now focusing on the people in the poll :)
Lets hope they redeem them!

[fishtaco]

huh. i voted for Mags, but I should have done the Rasputins. Magneto is in constant torture, every day of his life though. Read Excalibur.

[Hombre]

huh. i voted for Mags, but I should have done the Rasputins. Magneto is in constant torture, every day of his life though. Read Excalibur.

Doesn't that imply that CC reclaimed the character and set him straight?

[Gaveedra 6]

I actually liked all the weird phases Psylocke went through in the 90s.

To me, it was just part of her character, that she was subject to change and evolve. Remember, from the beginning, when Cleremont WAS writing her, she went from Supermodel, to British Psi-Cop, to fill-in Captain Britian, to fluffy butterfly telepath, to armored X-Man, and finally to Asian ninja-vixen.

So the fact that other writers turned her into a cloned/split personality, and then into a shadow creature, wasn't all that much of a stretch. And remember, the ambiguous power switch she had with Jean happened during Cleremont's return (I though that was one of her more lame incarnations.)

My vote was for the Rasputins. As many have stated already, they got hosed in a big way. Great characters, all full of potential, all wasted for cheap effect and forgotten. Although Peter's back. Yay! Could Mikhail be far behind?

[X-Men Forever]

I also wish I could pick more than one. I picked Rogue and Gambit (even though the Rasputins have been ruined) because there hasn't been much attention paid to how they've been wrecked so far in the thread. But those choices are 1 and 2.

Gambit was a enigmatic character and had some potential to be taken in a number of connections, but he was turned into someone with one of the biggest contingents of haters. I think the mystery (and the notion that he could be a spy or traitor) was taken away too quickly, and everyone in the Marvel Universe seemed to have met him in the past.

Rogue is one of my favorite characters in the original Claremont era. She was basically turned into a loser. She lost her backbone, her spunk, her determination, and her intelligence. She pined for Gambit like he was a Tiger Beat cover boy and became an appendage to him rather than her own woman. She whined incessantly.



Exactly, Rogue and Gambit were both great characters up until Claremont left the X-Men in 1991. Now I could care less if the both became cannon fodder, which sucks considering they used to be my two favorite X-Men next to Wolverine, oh well.

[Rasputin]

The Rasputin Family.

While I agree that Gambit and Rogue are just shadows of their original character points, the sheer hell that the Rasputins were put through baffles me. Especially since each disaster struck me as plot points instead of character development - the parents die and Illyana gets the Legacy Virus. Suddenly, Mikhail shows up after having been 'dead' since before Giant Size #1 and is shown to be insane and 'murders' the morlocks. Illyana dies. Result of all this: Colossus suffers through severe emotional issues and relys on X-teammates to deal, right? Nope, he just gets shipped to Asteroid M of a few years. What the?!

Maybe more confusing is Mikhail, who is discovered to actually be alive. Once his 'insanity' is dealt with, a great dynamic now exists where he has an akward relationship with Marrow, who idolized him as her ruler and he is now fighting alongside her - lots of storylines here. Instead, lets just have him disappear again so he is still only a footnote in X-men lore and a non-factor.

I agree that Kitty has been pretty screwed over as well, but at least she has been consistently featured as a major team member is X-books.

Yeah, I am biased toward the Rasputins (hence my name), but I always thought there was a great wealth of stories involved in Peter, Illyana and Mikhail and I am still waiting for them to happen.

[Novaya Havoc]

I went with other. My vote went to all the creators who thought they had to dream up some new character, instead of just using the excessive amount of pre-existing characters.


Like Jubilee riding the coattails of Dazzler? :P It was 89, but... meh.

Anyway, in order of screwed-overage:
5. Villains
4. Rogue/Gambit
3. Rasputins
2. Magneto
1. Psylocke

90s villains were screwed over hardcore. But their being "screwed over" pretty much resulted from making them all heroes. Mystique was good for a while in X-Factor. Val Cooper became a human ally. Emma Frost is now considered an X-Woman, which still makes me ill. Heck, every villainess there ever was has become a hero, it seems, with the exceptions of such winners as Lady Deathstrike (*groan*) or the underused and screwed-over Spiral (*dreamy sigh*).

The 90s lacked any good empathetic villains. And those with whom a reader sympathized became heroes. For example, Emma after the Hellions. Boooo.
That's the problem with the 90s -- it was too polarized with "Good" and "Evil." Any character with the slightest moral conscience became good, rather than making their villains well-rounded. Stryfe, X-Cutioner, Apocalypse, Dark Beast -- all are very aggressive, unsympathetic characters.

This is more about writing tastes, I'd argue, than destroying the villains themselves. Most of these issues can easily be undone.

---

Gambit and Rogue suffered, but not as much as the following characters.

Gambit became a pretty-boy hero.
Rogue became heroically insecure.

These two credos governed their characterization for the entirety of the 90s. Rogue is now officially FUBARed for all time, and Gambit has been largely inconsitent with characterization, but it is not something that is totally lost. If you want a couple that was truly FUBARed, look at Dazzler and Longshot. Now THAT is a character couple destroyed in the 90s with a bleak future.

Rogue is destined to be whiny.
Gambit is destined to be predictable.

But at least they don't have a Mojoworld.

---

Magneto is my third choice, because I liked most of his plot twists. Claremont softened him over the years. The 90s decided to remake the old adversary an adversary. And then... BAM! Coma.

Magneto was fine in the coma. I liked that. I really did. It's everything afterward that was shady. Jospeh, Genosha, Eve of Destruction -- boo, boo, boo.

The course that occurred post-Avalon is not where I would have taken Magneto, but it was able to be fixed. Unfortunately, after all of the deaths, and resurrections, and now the new Claremont chokehold on Mags, I don't want to see where this is going.

But he was not the most harmed over the 90s.

---

The Rasputins, while royally screwed over (as all Russian superheroes in the MU aside from Black Widow have been), were often depicted as bland stereotypes. It was just the modus operandi for Soviet Superheroes in the Cold War (see "Contest of Champions," Darkstar in The Champions, Colossus, and early Illyana).

The Rasputin time-bomb was ticking away in the 80s. Colossus was another bland Soviet Stereotype. But Illyana was the real harbinger of doom -- she had a shizophrenic personality, and in a "Classically Claremont" fashion, was devoid of many of her "home elements." Perhaps I just didn't like the Limboization of little "Katya." In essence, she was the antithesis to the oh-so-Ruskii "Piotr."

Mikahil was just the nail in the retcon coffin. Illyana was killed, but at least she died in her original form, after the Limboification of doom. Peter just got the shaft. Sure, they were screwed over, but it was built up since the beginnings of both Peter and Illyana. I wouldn't say that the 90s were especially unkind -- it's just that Illyana was a poor character, Mikhail was a poor story, and Peteski suffered because of it.

---

Psylocke is number one.

Body swap. Hello? I genuinely hate physically or permanently altering characters. What makes it worse is because Psylocke was neutered to accomodate that wench Jean Grey.

Because, you know, you just can't have TWO girl telepaths on one team!

Psylocke made telepathy cool again. She was a telepath without a million issues (aside the stupid bionic eyes. Ah, Claremont...). She was not Rachel Summers. She was not Jean Grey. And she wasn't as bland as Xavier.

Then we get a physical non-telepath. Then we get mixed up in inter-dimensional genetics. Then we get a ninja with a bit of telepathy. Then telekinesis. Then shadow-powers.

WHY COULDN'T THEY LEAVE THE COOL PURPLE-HAIRED BRIT TELEPATH ALONE?!

Psylocke was screwed with the most, because she was made to accomodate Jean.
Emma, likewise, has been screwed to accomodate Jean and the death of Colossus.

In short:
ANY change to ANY character that is a direct result because of the presence of a similar character and/or absence of a character with a specific power always gets the "most screwed" award.

'Night, folks!

[Uncle Nobs]

Out of the choices listed, I voted for Magneto.

For the other choices, the execution generally sucked, but you can at least sum up the events, and they still remain in-character. I'll demonstrate:

-Piotr:
Always had a proud, stubborn streak. Always had doubts about being an X-Man. It makes sense that when his family is killed and Xavier's methods seem completely impotent, he would defect. (Hell, even the idea of "defecting" is very much in-character!) It's just the execution of the concept that sucked.

-Illyana:
I love her. IloveherIloveherIloveher. But characters die. She seemed doomed from the start, then miraculously saved herself from damnation... only to be killed by a damned disease. Even though she died in a way I wouldn't have chosen, there was nothing completely out of character. It's just the execution of the concept that sucked.

-Mama & Papa Rasputin:
Same deal. Sorry they're dead, but it happens--even to the nicest folks in the world. Just bad execution (never mind the pun).

-Psylocke:
She was set up as someone who would evolve, who wanted to become something entirely different, to become a perfect warrior. I can't complain about all the Kwannon/Red Dawn crap because in the end, it stayed true to her roots. Just bad execution.

-Rogue & Gambit:
I couldn't even pay attention to the repetitive stories Marvel cranked out about these two in the 90s. But what I saw was still true to the characters, even if they sucked overall. The big thing that sticks out in my mind is that whole, "I led the Marauders to the Morlocks... Oh, wait... It was already revealed that the Marauders tracked Tommy to the Morlock tunnels. Well, just try to forget you read that." But even so, it was still true to the character, if not the history.

-Magneto:
FRICKIN' BUTCHERED!

I can't even remember a story from the time that CLAREMONT DEFINITIVELY KILLED HIM with a massive plasma cannon when he was already on the brink of death, too weak to defend himself, and then burned up in the earth's atmosphere where he was written as anything other than a stereotypical, pompous, irrational, psycho villain.

So yeah, my vote goes to Magneto.

[Charagon]

Shadowcat

She magically aged about a decade for no apparent reason.

::burns a Warren Ellis voodoo doll::

[crownphoenix]

id go with psylocke. because i feel kinda responsible for the crimson dawn. when i was like 11, i created a character called shadow walker, who was basically a male version of the psylocke ninja costume and look, but with the mutant ability to move through shadows. he was a rogue member of a clan who sought the xmens help to defeat some dastardly plot. i sent him into marvel and a few months later, i recieved like a dozen comics and some holographic cards and a letter from bob harris thanking me for my interest. about a month later, uncanny x-men 330 came out and soon psylocke had shadow powers. it could have been a coincidence, but ive always blamed myself.

[Stagier]

Same thing with Rogue. It seems like the writers over the years missed the boat so much on these two characters; they didn`t get them, only saw them as a couple and figured that`s what they were just two young mutants that were in love and were good-looking. But years before that ROGUE WAS KICKASS! She was this hit-first, talk second, southern tomboy gal with always a sarcastic line or two before and after she would throw a punch. And her troubled past and the schizophrenia created by the people she absorbed like Ms. Marvel added to femme-noir appeal of the character.
:(

i was just thinking the same thing the other day, what happened to the spunky rogue with wild hair and a green thong on the outside of black tights and matching 5 inch stilettos?

now she's all about remy. an very BORING... infact a lot of the x-men are boring and have no personality these days...

[Sabre]

90s villains were screwed over hardcore. But their being "screwed over" pretty much resulted from making them all heroes. Mystique was good for a while in X-Factor.

I actually think the opposite: in the 1990s, she became so nasty (often without any real reason) that she was completely non-sympathetic -- culminating in her attempting genocide in Dream's End. I don't think she became a hero at all, since she obviously chafed under X-Factor and did whatever she could to subvert their authority...as well she should.

Emma Frost is now considered an X-Woman, which still makes me ill.

Ditto.

I voted for the X-Villains, who suffered terribly, and that's the main reason I dislike 1990s comics so much (even though I didn't start reading until the late 90s myself).

[Dizzy D]

I actually think the opposite: in the 1990s, she became so nasty (often without any real reason) that she was completely non-sympathetic -- culminating in her attempting genocide in Dream's End. I don't think she became a hero at all, since she obviously chafed under X-Factor and did whatever she could to subvert their authority...as well she should.


I agree, Mystique came closer to being a hero during the 80s as leader of Freedom Force than as a member of X-factor. (And don't get me started on Dream's End, I can give at least 10 reasons why I completely agree with BKV that that and X-corps was a fake Mystique.)

Of the choices I will have to go with Magneto followed by the Rasputins. In case of Psylocke I feel that Claremont already started to road to ruin on that character when he turned her into an Elektra-clone.

[Sabre]

I agree, Mystique came closer to being a hero during the 80s as leader of Freedom Force than as a member of X-factor. (And don't get me started on Dream's End, I can give at least 10 reasons why I completely agree with BKV that that and X-corps was a fake Mystique.)

Alas, there's as yet no real evidence that there was an imposter. Until we see something more concrete than a couple of vague claims, I think we have to believe it really was her.

When I first started reading comics, she was my favourite character, but she was so horrible throughout the 90s that I really disliked her.

[Dizzy D]

Alas, there's as yet no real evidence that there was an imposter. Until we see something more concrete than a couple of vague claims, I think we have to believe it really was her.

When I first started reading comics, she was my favourite character, but she was so horrible throughout the 90s that I really disliked her.

Let's see:

1) What was Mystique trying to do in Dream's End? She was trying to kill Robert Kelly. Weird because she was masquerading as Robert Kelly's campaign manager for months and had far better opportunities to kill him, but instead seemed to go for controlling Kelly. (X-men Forever)

2) She already killed a presidential candidate before (Graydon Creed), who was 100 times more dangerous to mutants than Kelly ever would be. And she knew that that murder brought about the worst mutant-hunt ever (Operation Zero Tolerance)

3) Her other goal seems to be killing Moira MacTaggert. Weird because MacTaggert was working on a cure for a disease that was killing thousands of mutants and protecting mutants was always one of Mystique's goals.

4) Apart from Moira's direct benefits to mutantkind, Mystique never went for killing humans just because they are humans and here she is about to unleash a virus tailor engineered to kill humans on the world.

5) According to Beast later, Mystique herself engineered that virus. Again weird, Mystique is smart, but she is not a geneticist. And she is doing here something that Moira, Charles and Hank never could and providing a key-step in the cure. Suddenly Mystique is a better scientist than 2 nobel-prize winners and a 12 PhD doctor.

6) Speaking of weapons that she never could have, Mystique uses a neutraliser on Wolfsbane, claiming that she found blueprints in Forge's lab. Except Forge destroyed all neutralisers after the Dire Wraiths were defeated to prevent exactly this kind of thing happening and his powers are so that Forge never makes blueprints.

7) Speaking of which, Mystique is about as pro-mutant, anti-human as you can get. Turning a mutant (Wolfsbane) into a human by taking away her powers? She would be far more likely than to just kill Rahne.

8) Mystique/Rogue interaction.... odd to say the least.

9) Mystique says to Toad initially that she thinks he's useless. Weird because she was right there when Toad changed and was a key-figure in defeating the Stranger and saving her.

10) Sabretooth is part of the Brotherhood. Apart from Mystique's history with Sabretooth (he tried to kill her at least 2 times, maybe even more), having a guy who has been known to slaughter mutants on her group?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Except this duck is a shapeshifter and isn't quacking anything like a duck.

[Ryan K]

Like Jubilee riding the coattails of Dazzler? :P It was 89, but... meh.

I did not realize that the phrase "riding the coattails" meant "completely different (and better) character".

You learn something new everyday.

[Novaya Havoc]

I did not realize that the phrase "riding the coattails" meant "completely different (and better) character".

You learn something new everyday.

Hmm... Dazzler series versus Jubilee limited.

Hmm... Dazzler graphic novel compared to anything Jubilee did in Generation X...

That's a really tough arguement for you to win, Ryan, with that kind of comparison.

[acroyear]

All the characters suffered, but I think Longshot got boned the worst because there was really no need for them to go out of their way to dump on him the way they did with that horrible "Fallen messiah" angle they decided to slap him with. :eek:

If writers or editors don't like a character, then fine, I personally don't think he should have been in the X-Men anyways, but I've never seen writers go out of their way to be so hostile to a character before between with what they did to him in the "Shattershot" annuals (which he only cameoed in) and then in the Exiles.

It's like hitting a guy with your car then backing over him a few times to make sure you got him.

Thanks Marvel!

[Sabre]

Let's see:

1) What was Mystique trying to do in Dream's End? She was trying to kill Robert Kelly. Weird because she was masquerading as Robert Kelly's campaign manager for months and had far better opportunities to kill him, but instead seemed to go for controlling Kelly. (X-men Forever)

2) She already killed a presidential candidate before (Graydon Creed), who was 100 times more dangerous to mutants than Kelly ever would be. And she knew that that murder brought about the worst mutant-hunt ever (Operation Zero Tolerance)

3) Her other goal seems to be killing Moira MacTaggert. Weird because MacTaggert was working on a cure for a disease that was killing thousands of mutants and protecting mutants was always one of Mystique's goals.

4) Apart from Moira's direct benefits to mutantkind, Mystique never went for killing humans just because they are humans and here she is about to unleash a virus tailor engineered to kill humans on the world.

5) According to Beast later, Mystique herself engineered that virus. Again weird, Mystique is smart, but she is not a geneticist. And she is doing here something that Moira, Charles and Hank never could and providing a key-step in the cure. Suddenly Mystique is a better scientist than 2 nobel-prize winners and a 12 PhD doctor.

6) Speaking of weapons that she never could have, Mystique uses a neutraliser on Wolfsbane, claiming that she found blueprints in Forge's lab. Except Forge destroyed all neutralisers after the Dire Wraiths were defeated to prevent exactly this kind of thing happening and his powers are so that Forge never makes blueprints.

7) Speaking of which, Mystique is about as pro-mutant, anti-human as you can get. Turning a mutant (Wolfsbane) into a human by taking away her powers? She would be far more likely than to just kill Rahne.

8) Mystique/Rogue interaction.... odd to say the least.

9) Mystique says to Toad initially that she thinks he's useless. Weird because she was right there when Toad changed and was a key-figure in defeating the Stranger and saving her.

10) Sabretooth is part of the Brotherhood. Apart from Mystique's history with Sabretooth (he tried to kill her at least 2 times, maybe even more), having a guy who has been known to slaughter mutants on her group?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Except this duck is a shapeshifter and isn't quacking anything like a duck.

I agree, her portrayal in that story was horrible, and I hate the story overall. But she was hardly the only Brotherhood member acting bizarre and out of character, and unless we're going to argue that some or all of them were duplicates, I'm just not seeing how seriously we can take a half-hearted and vague excuse ("that terrorist stuff overseas") she made quite some time later. Also, as I've said, she'd acted bizarre and nasty for years before that story, so it didn't even come out of the blue.

She'd been feuding with Rogue for years (remember the story with Dr Agee and her rage over Rogue preferring to stop the High Evolutionary rather than spring her from prison?), she'd been treating Pyro --supposedly a friend, and dying-- like crap for years (a change I think is important because she'd always been loyal and caring to her comrades), she'd been increasingly vicious and extremist for years, and on-and-off nuts for a while. So her behaviour in Dream's End didn't come entirely out of nowhere. I think she was written wrong in it, and I think Avalanche was written wrong, and I find it hard to redeem any of them for their actions, but it was somewhat understandable.

(I can't believe I'm defending that stupid story in any way. I've been bitching about it for years.)

And the X-Corps story doesn't give me any problems aside from possible timing screw-ups during the Draco story (which could have taken place before her own series). I don't see anything wrong with keeping it in canon, so unless it's specifically negated, I'll let it slide.

If there's a story that comes out stating or providing evidence that it was not really Mystique in Dream's End, I'll be all for it (although in a tiny way I'd be slightly disappointed, but that'd take too long to explain). I just don't think her very vague hints in her solo series retcon it in any real way.

[Vegetarian Goat]

I do not "dislike" either of the two characters, but you have to admit, that the two of them are very much "bottom feeder" characters. Neither of them have made any significant impact in the X-Universe since their introductions. Hence the sh!t or puke comparison :D .

I totally agree with you that they haven't made any significant impact lately... but the only reason they're bottom feeders is because they're victims of circumstance. The fans want to see them, but the writers don't know what to do with them.

You get a writer like Scott Lobdell who LOVES jubilee, and you see her character start to shine. Same thing with all the numerous writers of Dazzler's old ongoing series.

All it takes is one writer who really loves and gets the character, and they can go from being "bottom feeders" to center stage players. Just look at Sage... or even Juggernaut & Havok.

[X-Men Forever]

I totally agree with you that they haven't made any significant impact lately... but the only reason they're bottom feeders is because they're victims of circumstance. The fans want to see them, but the writers don't know what to do with them.

You get a writer like Scott Lobdell who LOVES jubilee, and you see her character start to shine. Same thing with all the numerous writers of Dazzler's old ongoing series.

All it takes is one writer who really loves and gets the character, and they can go from being "bottom feeders" to center stage players. Just look at Sage... or even Juggernaut & Havok.

Well, most writers have to find something interesting in a character in order for them to want to write about the character. A writer would have to make a "deal" with the Devil himself to find anything interesting about Dazzler and Jubilee. Again, it's not like I "dislike" either of the two characters, but they are very uninteresting, barely belong in the background type characters, and that is a fact.

[Vegetarian Goat]

Well, most writers have to find something interesting in a character in order for them to want to write about the character. A writer would have to make a "deal" with the Devil himself to find anything interesting about Dazzler and Jubilee. Again, it's not like I "dislike" either of the two characters, but they are very uninteresting, barely belong in the background type characters, and that is a fact.

Comics are a creative industry- any writer who looks at a character and can't find something interesting to do with them is just being lazy. If there's nothing there, make something up! You're a writer- it's your job to dictate the lives of the characters, and to build on what's already there. If you were to ask me, Ryan Kirk, and Novaya Havoc, Jubes & Dazz aren't uninteresting "barely belong in the background type characters", and that would be our OPINION, not FACT.

[Ryan K]

Well, most writers have to find something interesting in a character in order for them to want to write about the character. A writer would have to make a "deal" with the Devil himself to find anything interesting about Dazzler and Jubilee. Again, it's not like I "dislike" either of the two characters, but they are very uninteresting, barely belong in the background type characters, and that is a fact.

No. That's an opinion.

:rolleyes:

[X-Men Forever]

If you were to ask me, Ryan Kirk, and Novaya Havoc, Jubes & Dazz aren't uninteresting "barely belong in the background type characters", and that would be our OPINION, not FACT.

Well for Marvel it is a "fact", which is why they have pretty much given up on the 616 versions of Dazzler(years ago) and Jubilee after the Jubilee mini "bombed" so badly. Look do not show any displeasure with me for the fact that the two of them are boring. Write Marvel, and tell them how you feel about them treating your favorite character. Thank God I back a "winner" in Wolverine, because like me, Marvel knows the difference between their head and their asshole :D .

[Vegetarian Goat]

Well for Marvel it is a "fact", which is why they have pretty much given up on the 616 versions of Dazzler(years ago) and Jubilee after the Jubilee mini "bombed" so badly. Look do not show any displeasure with me for the fact that the two of them are boring. Write Marvel, and tell them how you feel about them treating your favorite character. Thank God I back a "winner" in Wolverine, because like me, Marvel knows the difference between their head and their asshole :D .

There's no need to be rude. I wasn't.

And it's not about backing "winners" or losers.. it's about being reasonable, not going for the cheap joke, and knowing the difference between a fact and an opinion, which you obviously don't. If you need further help, i'll be more than happy to send you links to the words on www.dictionary.com.

[X-Men Forever]

There's no need to be rude. I wasn't.

And it's not about backing "winners" or losers.. it's about being reasonable, not going for the cheap joke, and knowing the difference between a fact and an opinion, which you obviously don't. If you need further help, i'll be more than happy to send you links to the words on www.dictionary.com.

How is what I said not a "fact"? It is very "factual" that Dazzler and Jubilee titles do not sell well in the comic book business. So it must be "fact" that they are found by the majority of comic book readers to be boring/bottom feeders. You are correct in that it is not "fact" that everybody in the Universe does not think that Dazzler and Jubilee are boring, but a dozen people, compared to billions carries no weight mathematically or logically.

[Ryan K]

How is what I said not a "fact"? It is very "factual" that Dazzler and Jubilee titles do not sell well in the comic book business. So it must be "fact" that they are found by the majority of comic book readers to be boring/bottom feeders. You are correct in that it is not "fact" that everybody in the Universe does not think that Dazzler and Jubilee are boring, but a dozen people, compared to billions carries no weight mathematically or logically.

First of all, you're assuming other people's opinions.

Second of all, majority opinion is not the equivalent of fact.

Were you absent from kindergarden when they explained these basics.

[Vegetarian Goat]

So it must be "fact" that they are found by the majority of comic book readers to be boring/bottom feeders. You are correct in that it is not "fact" that everybody in the Universe does not think that Dazzler and Jubilee are boring, but a dozen people, compared to billions carries no weight mathematically or logically.

See? You're beginning to make some sense.

But saying that some people find them to be boring isn't the same as saying they ARE boring- and it certainly doesn't justify comparing them to "Sh!t and puke". And i completely doubt that the Jubilee/Dazzler fans are in the dozens. That's an unrealistic, uneducated approximation.

That having been said, (and i would hope that this can remain a friendly discussion), i both appreciate and understand your opinions on Jubilee and Dazzler. But to continually put down other poster's favorite characters (especially ones as vocal as me & Ryan Kirk) is disrespectful.

[X-Men Forever]

First of all, you're assuming other people's opinions.

Second of all, majority opinion is not the equivalent of fact.

Were you absent from kindergarden when they explained these basics.

It is a "comic book fact" and nothing more. And I am a genius, so I skipped right ahead to my senior year at the age of 4 :D .

[Hi-Fi]

How is what I said not a "fact"? It is very "factual" that Dazzler and Jubilee titles do not sell well in the comic book business. So it must be "fact" that they are found by the majority of comic book readers to be boring/bottom feeders. You are correct in that it is not "fact" that everybody in the Universe does not think that Dazzler and Jubilee are boring, but a dozen people, compared to billions carries no weight mathematically or logically.

Are you insane?? That doesn't make sense at all. Take Runaways for example. Great characters and yet did not sell well when released. Just because people don't buy it it does not mean that the characters are boring.

[X-Men Forever]

See? You're beginning to make some sense.

But to continually put down other poster's favorite characters (especially ones as vocal as me & Ryan Kirk) is disrespectful.

I am not "putting down" Dazzler and Jubilee, Marvel is. I said that I do not dislike either of the characters, but neither has ever been given much respect by Marvel and their creators. They are both now rarely used or promoted by Marvel these days, so now they are nothing more than "bottom feeders" because it is obvious that they do not have mass-appeal like my favorite Wolverine has. You guys should jump on the Wolverine Band wagon where it is all warm and cozy :D .

[X-Men Forever]

[QUOTE=Hi-Fi]Are you insane?? [/ QUOTE]



Some would say that I am :D . But I do have immaculate taste in comic book characters ;) .

[Jesse Newcomb]

Wolverine has gotten screwed around really badly when they took his adamantium away. They also killed him off and then told us it was a friggin' skrull all along.

They certainly messed up Havok by making him evil and then putting him in a Gilligan's Island type situation with Mutant X. Hey, I liked the series but I had no idea what it was. Was it a mini-series (because the idea was not one you can do an infinite run on) or a ongoing?

How about Cannonball? He hadn't had a proper status quo ever since he left X-Force the first time.

Those poor, poor kids from Generation X. But we can't count them because they were AC (after Chris). But I had to throw them in because I love them so much especially Jubilee.

Rogue and Remy, ugh.

Betsy, double ugh.

Capt. Britain, remember Britanic?

But the X-Men got off pretty easy in the nineties compared to Spidey, Avengers (including Cap and Iron Man), the FF, Superman, Batman, and the list goes on and on.

Any problem the X-Men had was there was too many titles, but the Spidey fans had to read that Peter Parker was a clone of the real Spider-man. How big is a F-U to the fans is that?

[Rasputin]

[QUOTE=Jesse Newcomb]Wolverine has gotten screwed around really badly when they took his adamantium away. They also killed him off and then told us it was a friggin' skrull all along.

Don't forget about the bone claws and the brief period where he went all Michael Jackson without a nose.



...but I digress. :D

[Jesse Newcomb]

oh-ho man! I forgot about that!

But I wasn't reading Wolvie at the time so I guess I'm a poser! :p

[X-Men Forever]

[QUOTE=Jesse Newcomb]Wolverine has gotten screwed around really badly when they took his adamantium away. They also killed him off and then told us it was a friggin' skrull all along.

Don't forget about the bone claws and the brief period where he went all Michael Jackson without a nose.



...but I digress. :D

Yep, this was the lowest point in Wolverine's career. He had no nose, 6 foot long arms, no shoes or boots, and he wore a bandanna for a mask :mad: .

[Rasputin]

[QUOTE=Jesse Newcomb]oh-ho man! I forgot about that!

But I wasn't reading Wolvie at the time so I guess I'm a poser![/ QUOTE]

actually, this was a point where my reading tailed off until things improved. It isn't like you missed too much, imo.

plus he had those random tufts of hair on his elbows and other such nonsense. WTF?!

[LoneWolf21]

Aw, but everybody loves hairy noseless pirate Wolverine! :p

Seriously though, I wonder if New Mutants would count? Sure CC was still around writing Uncanny, but boy did they ever have a rough go of it after he left....

[Indigo Al]

Aw, but everybody loves hairy noseless pirate Wolverine! :p

Seriously though, I wonder if New Mutants would count? Sure CC was still around writing Uncanny, but boy did they ever have a rough go of it after he left....

You ain't kidding. Man I hated the crap that followed.

[The Conquering Hero]

Rasputins, especially Illyana, and especially with her being a 5 yr old. That's just wrong. Collossus is back, Hopefully Illyana will follow.

However, I am a diehard Magneto fan; Magneto the crusader, not tyrant. I liked him as the teacher of the New Mutants. Only Claremont could have pulled that off. After Claremont left, they dragged Magneto through the filth. That was terrible, him being a concentration camp survivor and all.

[Novaya Havoc]

How is what I said not a "fact"? It is very "factual" that Dazzler and Jubilee titles do not sell well in the comic book business. So it must be "fact" that they are found by the majority of comic book readers to be boring/bottom feeders.

<cough>

Dazzler #1 was the first title in history released exclusively to comic shop retail and not wide release. It also sold out completely.
Dazzler was also voted one of the best Marvel books back in the 80s when it kicked off -- before Wolverine's solo did, mind you.

Dazzler was neutered when it went bi-monthy. It signed its death wish when the book tried to spin the character out to Los Angeles and had no back-up cast (or consistency).

But the series by no means "bombed." It thrived very well, and lasted for 5 years. For the longest time, it was one of the longest-running solo female titles.

Besides, comparing male and female superheroes by sales and popularity is ridiculous. Comics is still a male-dominated medium, and if you look throughout all of history, the solo female characters (or the ones to get books) were either hyper-masculine to compete in a boy's world, or hyper-feminine to market to a female minority.

The hyper-feminine characters (Millie the Model, or like what we're seeing with the Mary Jane and Jubilee books) have much smaller readerships, and typically an array of readers that are outside of comics' promary market.

The hyper-masculine characters (She-Hulk, Elektra, [b]Black Widow[/i]) try to play with the big boys, and typically deal with fighters, smashers, and espionage -- in short, "war games."

So you really can't compare Wolverine to Dazzler, and your coveted "fact" about comic sales is pretty much moot. In the market, Wolverine will always sell more than Dazzler -- or even Elektra -- unless Marvel sticks with a female charcter. Then, maybe over time, some change will effect.

But I digress. ;)

Back to characters getting FUBARed...

[X-Men Forever]

<cough>

Dazzler #1 was the first title in history released exclusively to comic shop retail and not wide release. It also sold out completely.
Dazzler was also voted one of the best Marvel books back in the 80s when it kicked off -- before Wolverine's solo did, mind you.

Dazzler was neutered when it went bi-monthy. It signed its death wish when the book tried to spin the character out to Los Angeles and had no back-up cast (or consistency).

But the series by no means "bombed." It thrived very well, and lasted for 5 years. For the longest time, it was one of the longest-running solo female titles.

Besides, comparing male and female superheroes by sales and popularity is ridiculous. Comics is still a male-dominated medium, and if you look throughout all of history, the solo female characters (or the ones to get books) were either hyper-masculine to compete in a boy's world, or hyper-feminine to market to a female minority.

The hyper-feminine characters (Millie the Model, or like what we're seeing with the Mary Jane and Jubilee books) have much smaller readerships, and typically an array of readers that are outside of comics' promary market.

The hyper-masculine characters (She-Hulk, Elektra, [b]Black Widow[/i]) try to play with the big boys, and typically deal with fighters, smashers, and espionage -- in short, "war games."

So you really can't compare Wolverine to Dazzler, and your coveted "fact" about comic sales is pretty much moot. In the market, Wolverine will always sell more than Dazzler -- or even Elektra -- unless Marvel sticks with a female charcter. Then, maybe over time, some change will effect.

But I digress. ;)

Back to characters getting FUBARed...

The Dazzler regular series was printed back in the 80's, when even the lower selling titles back then, sold as many units, as the top sellers do in today's market. Today's market is a much different animal, so try to launch a Dazzler regular series in 05, and see if it lasts 5 years :rolleyes: . It won't last 12 issues in today's market, and that is a "fact".

[The Phoenix]

I, Phoenix, hereby revive this random thread.

[Faded]

Update . . .

[Babylon23]

I'd like to vote for "all of the above plus about 100 other things". It's a hard choice. I remember when Rogue was one of the best x-characters, Gambit was mysterious, Magick was the coolest character in New Mutants, and Colossus was a sensitive artist.

From those listed, I'd have to go with previous x-villains. The 80's produced some incredible x-villains who were butchered in the 90's:

Apocalypse: Apocalypse was a really fascinating villain in the early X-Factor days, especially during Fall of the Mutants. During the 90's, he devolved into another 2-dimensional, world conquering villain. The emphasis on evolution was lost, and his origin story removed much of the mystique behind a character who claimed to be worshipped as the God of Death by many civilisations.

Mr. Sinister: This guy was really creepy in the beginning. His obsession with the Summers clan, the mutant massacre, his connection to Cyclops and the orphanage, his funky Kiss-inspired costume, the fact that he could throw Sabretooth around like tissue paper. He really became a mess in the 90's, and lost all direction.

The Marauders: These guys slaughtered the Morlocks! Under Claremont, they were a deadly strikeforce. What happened?

The Reavers: These guys were just vicious. They slaughtered the X-Men, crucified Wolverine, forced the team through the Seige Perilous to escape. After Claremont, they were wiped out in about 2 pages.

Mystique: The previous posters have summed this one up perfectly.

Freedom Force: Seeing the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants transformed into Freedom Force was really interesting, but the team was decimated in the 90's.

Magneto: Remember when Magneto was a complex character with a fascinating back story, interesting philosophy. Not anymore. In the 90's, the writers seemingly ignored years of character development, leaving us with a deranged, boring villain.

Nanny and the Orphan-Maker: They were kind of creepy to begin with, stealing babies and killing their parents. Then they just disappeared.

[steve2275]

Y'know who suffered most in the 90s? I'll tell ya who suffered most in the 90s.

Kitty Pryde.
First love(Piotr), went nuts, joined the enemy camp, came back, still nuts, then committed suicide.

Whatta gal!
came back again :)

[Plym]

Oh, some great posts! :)

[protege]

Gambit was created by Claremont....
Most of them weere created by Claremont.

[Plym]

Most of them weere created by Claremont. Husk and Chamber weren't, and I think thats what Flight meant. :)
Characters who weren't created by Claremont :)

[Ontir]

Rogue, Gambit, Psylocke, every Rasputin except Piotr, and almost everyone who's appared in X-Men since #94 or at least half Claremontian.

[Plym]

Rogue, Gambit, Psylocke, every Rasputin except Piotr, and almost everyone who's appared in X-Men since #94 or at least half Claremontian. Yes, I know. :)
Whats your point?

[Fatguy]

I voted the villains, which still holds true to this day...stop making good villains heroes!

[fishtaco]

Doesn't that imply that CC reclaimed the character and set him straight?Oops. This is about character abuse, right?

In that case, I'd say pretty much the whole X-universe. :D

[Huzzah!]

how are the rasputins even in the running.

Psylocke and Magneto were DESTROYED after Claremont.

[Citizen V]

Fascinating poll.I actually had to think before i casted my vote.Before i explain who i voted for,ill say my second choice.The death of Illyana was something that did shock me,even more later on was the death of Piotr.They suffered the most,but not more than someone else to me..

The X-Villians did seem to sag with me towards the late 90`s,Onslaught did not really quell this.Especially since this was the starting point when the X-Men started to distrust their own mentor,Professor X.This might have been the fuel for the bad things to come..

[Drakenred]

God Even old threads come back from the dead!

Seriously the thread was last posted on 11-02-2005 11:38 PM the next post after that was today(and this was a thread that Started 06-24-2004, 11:02 AM

[Haunt]

man, this thread is depressing. i almost wish that i hadn't read those Claremont x-stories, so that i'd have nothing to compare the new stuff to. i remember thinking that Mr Sinister was a genuine threat and actually creepy. i remember when Magneto was a tragic figure who might have really changed things for mutantkind had he not grown up in a deathcamp and lost his family. i remember when the Hellfire Club were like the coolest/most different "villain" group around. they were what Singularity Investigations is today (thank you PAD). somewhere along the line, X-Men just got too big and too marketable. maybe they should have just taken periodic breaks so that creator's, collectively, could think of innovative ways to present the characters.

[Stephane Garrelie]

I voted for Magneto. But Psylocke was a close second.
And they totaly ruined the Hellfire Club and the Freedom Force.

Mystique didn't survive to Claremont's departure.
She didn't came back before X-Men: The End vol.2.

[Metallurgique]

Though I don't necessarily like raising an old thread from the briny deep...

- The original Hellions. About 80% of them were obliterated by Fitzroy within weeks of Claremont's final issue of Uncanny. To long-time New Mutants fans, and probably a few New Warriors fans, this was a pretty big loss. These characters could've lived on to better stories than the awful Fitzroy/Upstarts thing.

- Magneto. Struggling, self-doubting good guy Magneto was infinitely more interesting than mean, powerful, bonkers "big bad" Magneto ever was. The constant recycling and reinvention of Magneto into bad guy after bad guy has not done anything positive for the books as awhole.

- Rusty & Skids. What happened? Nothing really, 'cept that Rusty's dead and Skids is virtually in limbo.

- Dazzler. After a long time in the X-men and lots of team-ups in her own series, she and Longshot were dumped into Mojoverse oblivion not long after Claremont's departure. Alison was left there for over a decade before her recent return. Yeah, she didn't die, but her character was put on the shelf for a long time in the immediate wake of Jim Lee.

- Psylocke. Impossible to say what the plans were for her in Claremont's mind. Well probably not impossible - I just don't know them. But Kwannon/Revanche and Betsy's eventual death were not a great destiny for her, and her and Warren were never quite right.

[fishtaco]

Though I don't necessarily like raising an old thread from the briny deep...

- The original Hellions. About 80% of them were obliterated by Fitzroy within weeks of Claremont's final issue of Uncanny. To long-time New Mutants fans, and probably a few New Warriors fans, this was a pretty big loss. These characters could've lived on to better stories than the awful Fitzroy/Upstarts thing.

- Magneto. Struggling, self-doubting good guy Magneto was infinitely more interesting than mean, powerful, bonkers "big bad" Magneto ever was. The constant recycling and reinvention of Magneto into bad guy after bad guy has not done anything positive for the books as awhole.

- Rusty & Skids. What happened? Nothing really, 'cept that Rusty's dead and Skids is virtually in limbo.

- Dazzler. After a long time in the X-men and lots of team-ups in her own series, she and Longshot were dumped into Mojoverse oblivion not long after Claremont's departure. Alison was left there for over a decade before her recent return. Yeah, she didn't die, but her character was put on the shelf for a long time in the immediate wake of Jim Lee.

- Psylocke. Impossible to say what the plans were for her in Claremont's mind. Well probably not impossible - I just don't know them. But Kwannon/Revanche and Betsy's eventual death were not a great destiny for her, and her and Warren were never quite right.Agreed on all points.

Other things ruined...

Genosha
Emma Frost
Matsuo Tsuryaba
Professor X
Phoenix (Rachel, after Davis left)
Phoenix concept (After Davis left
Freedom Force
Sabretooth
Gambit and Mr. Sinister
Wolverine
Magik
Rogue
Fabian Cortez
Binary
Colossus
Callisto, Morlocks legacy
Archangel
The Reavers
Gateway
LL&L
Tom Corsi and Sharon Freidlander
Amanda Sefton
Havok (after PAD)
Soulsword
Emma Frost
Cable (after Liefeld and Simonson)
Apocalypse (after Simonson)
The Twelve (after Simonson)

[Faded]

Magneto and the Hellions, among other characters that were killed. And the Twelve.

That's it.

[Metallurgique]

Ooh, forgot about Tom & Sharon.

And what ever happened to Stevie Hunter? AFAIK, she hasn't been seen since the X-tinction Agenda. She's the only "teacher" proper I ever remember the original New Mutants having - and take that Emma, she was "just a human."

[fishtaco]

Ooh, forgot about Tom & Sharon.

And what ever happened to Stevie Hunter? AFAIK, she hasn't been seen since the X-tinction Agenda. She's the only "teacher" proper I ever remember the original New Mutants having - and take that Emma, she was "just a human."As the status quo became more dangerous in Uncanny X-Men, Excalibur, X-Factor, and New Mutants, Stevie became less relevant. That's why she was barely seen. Stevie was an essential element of the X-Men and New Mutants when they were a "Happy Family" living at Xavier's.

[Mariah]

As the status quo became more dangerous in Uncanny X-Men, Excalibur, X-Factor, and New Mutants, Stevie became less relevant. That's why she was barely seen. Stevie was an essential element of the X-Men and New Mutants when they were a "Happy Family" living at Xavier's.
Hence why they shouldn't have left the mansion. *rolls up newspaper and slaps the x-men on the butt*

[Faded]

Oh yeah and Rogue. She's had her moments since him, but she hasn't been consistently awesome since Claremont.

[buckeye9167]

I'm supposed to pick just one?

They were all butchered. That's suffering enough.

Ah, but there are degrees of suffering.

My original vote was for the Rasputins, on the grounds of almost every character, with Mikhail growing increasingly lame and Colossus flirting with that godawful pony tail at times.

Come to think of it, the X-villains as a group met a similar demise, with Mags and Mystique turning psychotic and many of the rest falling to the legacy virus and/or the Dark Riders and or Trevor Fitzroy and crew.

Psylocke was at least halfway decent until the weird shadow stuff, and IMHO the worst damage was done to her by CC mucking around with her powers.

Rogue and Gumbo gradually lost their coolness, but not to the extent that they couldn't have been redeemed without a breakup, and they didn't meet the 'death of every supporting character including third cousins' that some of the other characters did.

[Vaal]

Magneto's unending torture, even in the present as writer after writer tries to crib the iconic X-villain, but only show thier lack of skill with complex villains puts him at #1.

[Metallurgique]

I noticed something today when I re-read New X/Academy 11/12. Jay and Sofia went to a swing dance class at the "Hunter Dance Studio" in Salem Center - so maybe Stevie's not gone for good after all. Tom is also mentioned as the PE instructor during one of those.

The current post-Nunzio arc has, however, made her re-emergence more unlikely as they've gone away from the "New Mutants" stories and gotten something more "hard core."

Not my call to make, but personally I prefer the earlier New Mutants V2/Academy X stories to the darker arc they've taken recently. The original New Mutants was best when the kids lived at the mansion, focused on training, and had various adventures more or less independant of the X-men (in the years prior to Inferno). That, of course, was made easier by the fact that there were only 7 of them as opposed to 30, and that they could leave the mansion as they desired.

Because of the M-day fallout and Stryker, the new X-kids can't go anywhere now, which makes giving them relevant solo stories or mini-arcs independant of the X-men much more difficult.

[Affinity]

Rogue most definitely. Broody broody broody OH MAH GAWD IT WASN'T ME, IT WAS SAURON drama. Bachalo gave her a fun costume once again (and ONCE more!!) but I missed the sassy and spunky Rogue of the CaRogue (haha, how silly, sorry!) days. She was fun.

And looks like Carey has brought her back. I think the revamp is a great one this time around.

[fishtaco]

I noticed something today when I re-read New X/Academy 11/12. Jay and Sofia went to a swing dance class at the "Hunter Dance Studio" in Salem Center - so maybe Stevie's not gone for good after all. That's because of the "back to basics" status quo that the editors unfortunately want for the books.

[Brian M.]

Myself. I'm the biggest casualty, I can't go on w/o Claremont.


Good Bye cruel world.

[Vaal]

Not my call to make, but personally I prefer the earlier New Mutants V2/Academy X stories to the darker arc they've taken recently. The original New Mutants was best when the kids lived at the mansion, focused on training, and had various adventures more or less independant of the X-men (in the years prior to Inferno). That, of course, was made easier by the fact that there were only 7 of them as opposed to 30, and that they could leave the mansion as they desired.

Because of the M-day fallout and Stryker, the new X-kids can't go anywhere now, which makes giving them relevant solo stories or mini-arcs independant of the X-men much more difficult.
I just had a terrible, terrible thought...

I've seen Domino and (I think) Shatterstar in previews for other X-books...

Sweet lord no! :eek:

[Amokitty]

Nobody got screwed over the way the Rasputins did. It almost seems like a personal vendetta. And it didn't end in the 90's either. The crap is still going on today.

Peter's suicide, imprisonment, and torture, as well as Mikhail's self imposed exile (death?), more Rasputin family deaths, and the God-awful Rasputin curse all just happened within the last few years, up to the present day.

It simply proves that this family is destined for terrible things. :evilangry

[Frank]

Gambit.

He was by far my favorite character in comics when he was introduced in 1990. Without CC over time he became the character I hate the most in comics.

[Serik]

Magneto, if only because butchering the X-Men's chief antagonist has greater ramifications story-wise. Plus it's disappointing when a writer squanders Magneto's great potential as a character.

[Plym]

I agree completely! :)

[Bulky Brent]

Claremont Really put Magneto through the wringer

[Karthak]

Gambit.

He was by far my favorite character in comics when he was introduced in 1990. Without CC over time he became the character I hate the most in comics.

I remember Gambit's first ever appearance (wasn't that when he met the de-aged Storm?) He was soooo badass. Nowadays...Apocalypse turned him into a gas-farting wannabe drow. I hope they can do him justice in the future.

[dotdotdot]

I'm pretty certain Claremont had nothing to do with Bishop. Portacio was plotter and penciler of Uncanny at the time of Bishop's first appearance, and Byrne was scripter. Look here: http://uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=1583

I'm pretty sure that Whilce, alone, created Bishop. Anyway, this is off-topic. Then again, Portacio's run was Post-Claremont (on Uncanny, anyway), so maybe it's not so off-topic. It was a bad run--really bad.

281 - almost 300.....up until whilce left. i think the first issue after started this awful morlocks story....
anyway every one of those issues was fantastic. so much love for this run, surely you're in the minority here thinking this was really bad? anyone else want to chime in?

[Arilou]

And no bad guy created in that era has stood the test of time either. Stryfe? Phalanx? Onslaught? Bastion?

They seem to be doing A-OK at the moment, certainly they are a far grander threat than any other X-villain....

[DDM]

Hence why they shouldn't have left the mansion. *rolls up newspaper and slaps the x-men on the butt*

Chris Claremont chose to remove the X-Men from the mansion because of X-Factor. X-Factor essentially took the X-Men's old status quo; whereas, Chris Claremont forged a completely new one by taking them to Australian Outback town that once belonged to the Reavers. Chris Claremont remained true to Xavier's dream, although they no longer had the school. I think Xavier's School is an albatross at this point.

[Brian M.]

Chris Claremont chose to remove the X-Men from the mansion because of X-Factor. X-Factor essentially took the X-Men's old status quo; whereas, Chris Claremont forged a completely new one by taking them to Australian Outback town that once belonged to the Reavers. Chris Claremont remained true to Xavier's dream, although they no longer had the school. I think Xavier's School is an albatross at this point.

Yea I can see how dressing up as Mutant hunters in order to hide the fact that they want to go out and teach mutants how to use their powers while they work for the government is returning to the status quo. Living out of Ship half way into the series was a return to the status quo...

[Frank]

I remember Gambit's first ever appearance (wasn't that when he met the de-aged Storm?) He was soooo badass. Nowadays...Apocalypse turned him into a gas-farting wannabe drow. I hope they can do him justice in the future.

When he took out Wolverine it was awesome. It's a device that's been too overdone over time, but that time it was surprising and refreshing.


I can't believe how characters like Gambit, Rogue and Psylocke were so great and ended up so crap.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

....I'm confused am I supposed to say something bad about Claremont or judge from 281 until like 400 something as to which of the 300 writers were bad?!

BAIT THREAD

[Frank]

....I'm confused am I supposed to say something bad about Claremont or judge from 281 until like 400 something as to which of the 300 writers were bad?!

BAIT THREAD

All writers post X-Men 3(1991) were bad.

[Tazirai]

I'm supposed to pick just one?

They were all butchered. That's suffering enough.


agree.. But you know who i'm picking.
Seems that no matter her incarnation. Betsy is destined to forever be an asian woman. Nothing against asian women. But in EVERY alternate reality so far, she's been asian. It's a damn shame.

[Novaya Havoc]

Chris Claremont chose to remove the X-Men from the mansion because of X-Factor. X-Factor essentially took the X-Men's old status quo; whereas, Chris Claremont forged a completely new one by taking them to Australian Outback town that once belonged to the Reavers. Chris Claremont remained true to Xavier's dream, although they no longer had the school. I think Xavier's School is an albatross at this point.

DO NOT REPLY TO MARIAH WHEN SHE'S MIA.

You sully her posts with your words. Her posts are now historical landmarks. Do not deface them!

*/backhand*

[Slung]

Psylocke was screwed with the most, because she was made to accomodate Jean.
Emma, likewise, has been screwed to accomodate Jean and the death of Colossus.

Wait, wait, wait.

Psylocke wasn't screwed to accomodate Jean...Psylocke was made into super-uber-ninja so she could be kickass. It was before Jean even returned to the X-Men.

And lets not even pretend that Emma got screwed to accomodate Jean. I mean, Jean was KILLED so that Emma could become the new status quo X-Woman (Morrison even said so). I mean, if we're going to talk about who got screwed, lets start there.

PS - what DID happen to Mariah. I was gone for awhile, came back, and she was *poof* gone.

[jarrod]

Really, it's equal parts Rogue, Psylocke and Magneto. Thankfully, a lot of good work has been done with all three in the past few years.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

And lets not even pretend that Emma got screwed to accomodate Jean. I mean, Jean was KILLED so that Emma could become the new status quo X-Woman (Morrison even said so). I mean, if we're going to talk about who got screwed, lets start there.

Emma fan here, and no matter how I think it was a good call, even I wouldn't even try to argue Jean that didn't get shafted, lol.

I wasn't even aware it was a *possibility*. :eek:

[Colossusfan]

I'm gonna say the Rasputins as they got absolutely screwed over in the 90's.

[Faded]

No one.

Well, no, there's Rogue.

Now that the Gambit phase is out, hopefully the dying/getting warts phase will come to pass soon, too!

[ImpulseUCF]

All writers post X-Men 3(1991) were bad.I can only assume you are being sarcastic.

Right?

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

All writers post X-Men 3(1991) were bad.

Why? B/c they weren't your Lord Claremont:rolleyes:

rubbish

[Faded]

I think he's joking guys. ;)

[Citizen V]

Everything suffered after Claremont left.Myself or DDM would say that.

[Hi-Fi]

Everything suffered after Claremont left.Myself or DDM would say that.
Oh, yeah. Two great voices.

[DDM]

Oh, yeah. Two great voices.

The editors & writers--after Chris Claremont--had no clue what to do with the X-Men. The writers just came & went like a revolving door due to the editorial constraints. The editors kept the X-Men from "growing" in character development.

When Chris Claremont returned to pick up the pieces, all the toys were long broken.

[Novaya Havoc]

The editors & writers--after Chris Claremont--had no clue what to do with the X-Men. The writers just came & went like a revolving door due to the editorial constraints. The editors kept the X-Men from "growing" in character development.

When Chris Claremont returned to pick up the pieces, all the toys were long broken.

Claremont broke Dazzler -- the best female solo series EVER.

And he made Mojo silly.

And he gave us Lila Cheney.

NO. NO.

[Frank]

I think he's joking guys. ;)

What has been good post 1991?

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

What has been good post 1991?

If it's SO bad then why are you still reading comics/posting on a message board more-or-less devoted to recent issues of comic books?

[Frank]

If it's SO bad then why are you still reading comics/posting on a message board more-or-less devoted to recent issues of comic books?

Because The X-Men is my favorite concept and hope they can get better. Most message board posters are optimists. :D

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

Because The X-Men is my favorite concept and hope they can get better. Most message board posters are optimists. :D

Really?:confused: which message board do you post where there are shiney happy people I want to go there....this place is bitter like a Lime (withOUT tequila!)

[Frank]

Really?:confused: which message board do you post where there are shiney happy people I want to go there....this place is bitter like a Lime (withOUT tequila!)

Well see if the posters would not be optimists they would just give up and say "that sucks" and never read another X-Men book(or any books for what matter) ever again. But they fight, biker, argue till their faces are blue because they want their favorite books to improve. They say:"now why didn't he do something like this in the book?" or "man that character was written badly, it should be done better!".

[Faded]

What has been good post 1991?

I think a lot of stuff has been GREAT post-1991.

If I were a nerd, I'd list them all. But since I'm not...

Sample List of Things I Thought Were Great Post-1991:
Operation: Zero Tolerance
Fall of Avalon
Age of Apocalypse
Joe Kelly's X-Men run
early Generation X
John Francis Moore's X-Force
Grant Morrison's New X-Men
Mike Carey's X-Men
X-Factor I by PAD
X-Factor III by PAD
Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix
New Mutants II by DeFilippis/Weir
some of New X-Men II
Runaways
Loners
Young Avengers
New Avengers
some of End of Greys and Chasing Hellfire

I'm your new fishtaco, people.
LIVE WITH IT. ;)

[xmanson]

Zero Tolerance was shit, but most of your list is good stuff.

I don't Illyana was ruined. I think her dying put a nice end to her tale, and it's so rare to have characters comew full circle. But now that's over. Oh joy.

[Gene M.]

The only casualties were the plots CC had to abandon. Everything else was fine.

[Novaya Havoc]

The only casualties were the plots CC had to abandon. Everything else was fine.

Don't be sarcastic!

[Dagger]

The editors & writers--after Chris Claremont--had no clue what to do with the X-Men. The writers just came & went like a revolving door due to the editorial constraints. The editors kept the X-Men from "growing" in character development.

When Chris Claremont returned to pick up the pieces, all the toys were long broken.
Wow. A revolving door. Except Lobdell was on for almost 7 years, and spearheaded the x-books (with some help from Fab. Nic who was on for 4) during the time where they were selling more books than anyone.

And I totally agree with Faded's list! Everything on that was pure gold!

I also enjoyed the subplot involving Graydon Creed's run for presidency, leading up to his asassination by his own mother! And Bastion and the Omega sentinels were awesome, and we got gems like Marrow, Maggot, Cecilia Reyes, Risque, Loeb's X-Force and Cable run, Cannonball becoming a X-Man, the Trial of Gambit(Landscape was awesome, yall!!!) O:ZT was the best storyline in years, it's too bad it got neutered at the end.:(

[Frank]

I think a lot of stuff has been GREAT post-1991.

If I were a nerd, I'd list them all. But since I'm not...

Sample List of Things I Thought Were Great Post-1991:
Operation: Zero Tolerance Naaa

Fall of Avalon Nope

Age of Apocalypse only the few Bachalo issues

Joe Kelly's X-Men run lol average at best

Early Generation X I'll give you that one(although it's not "X-Men")

John Francis Moore's X-Force very ordinary

Grant Morrison's New X-Men A complete mess

Mike Carey's X-Men *sigh*

X-Factor I by PAD not X-Men

X-Factor III by PAD not X-Men

Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix Great but not X-Men

New Mutants II by DeFilippis/Weir not X-Men

some of New X-Men II not X-Men

Runaways
Loners
Young Avengers
New Avengers What those have to do with X-Men?

some of End of Greys and Chasing Hellfire Not so bad, I guess.

I'm a geek so i'll do my rundown ;)

See most of it sucked post CC 91 except a few rare exception:

1. When Chris left Whilce Portacio did the art for Uncanny, Jim Lee scripted X-Men. The writing was bad but what it had was good art for a few issues.

When all the image guys left, there was a huge whole at Marvel as far as creators and X-Men got the worst of the brunt. It became the worst thing known to man and it made quit comics. Even Andy Kubert could not save those comics. I remember for a good 10 years it became a joke about how much X-Men was still the most-top selling books while being the worst in comics. Nothing could hurt the drones buying the comics. That changed a bit when John Romita Jr. came on board. While still bad it got us..

2. Uncanny X-Men 300. Excellent stand alone story with great work by John Romita Jr. (I tried to read the subsequent issues to no avails)

It continued being a mess even when the popular Joe Madureira was there. Then the big wigs wanted another crossover so Age of Apocalypse came along. Very average and greatly inferior to Days of Futur Past. At least there was Chris Bachalo.

3. Chris Bachalo during AoA was the highlight and the only thing worth mentioning.

4. Few issues of Kelley and Seagle's run with the "New X-Men". I thought it fun and inventive to have a new group of X-Men with similar visual...until it was revealed that they were imaginary being created by Cerebro. Oh Lord...! Anyway at least these characters were cool.

5. I'll put Kid-Omega and his rampage in there during the Morrison run. It was the first time maybe since its debut that you had Morrison and Quitely for a whole storyline. It kicked more ass than all other story before under Morrison. But wasn't that incredible. It was a good effort but sometime felt like Authority rehash.

6. Silent issue. That explains the birth of Cassandra Nova, beautifuly drawn by Frank Quitely.

7. Mark Millar's First Ultimate X-Men storyline. This is the first time i'm going to say that it was awesome from top to bottom. Not any "maybes" like I did with the others. No Mark succeeded because he threw everything but the kitchen sink and did everything we're ever dreamed in a X-Men story: The X-Men vs The Sentinels vs Magneto. Both Cyclops and Wolverine switch sides. Wolverine impales Magneto and Quicksilver turns on his father.

8. Astonishing X-Men

So there you have it. :D

[Faded]

Well, I liked them anyway. Oh well, lol.

I, too, liked Uncanny 300 though. I disliked the art immensely, but the story was great.

What those have to do with X-Men?

They're just so awesome and I include them in every list!

If we were listing pies, Joe Kelly's X-Men still would've made the list.

Fall of Avalon would too but barely; I love Banana Creme.

[Excelsior]

The entire X-universe did.

[Dagger]

Well, I liked them anyway. Oh well, lol.

I, too, liked Uncanny 300 though. I disliked the art immensely, but the story was great.



They're just so awesome and I include them in every list!

If we were listing pies, Joe Kelly's X-Men still would've made the list.

Fall of Avalon would too but barely; I love Banana Creme.
NO FADED!!! DON'T LET HIS NEGATIVENESS RUIN YOUR LOVE FOR FALL OF AVALON FLAVORED PIE!!!

[dotdotdot]

who's this frank jerkoff

[ImpulseUCF]

Naaa

Nope

only the few Bachalo issues

lol average at best

I'll give you that one(although it's not "X-Men")

very ordinary

A complete mess

*sigh*

not X-Men

not X-Men

Great but not X-Men

not X-Men

not X-Men

What those have to do with X-Men?

Not so bad, I guess.

I'm a geek so i'll do my rundown ;)

See most of it sucked post CC 91 except a few rare exception:

1. When Chris left Whilce Portacio did the art for Uncanny, Jim Lee scripted X-Men. The writing was bad but what it had was good art for a few issues.

When all the image guys left, there was a huge whole at Marvel as far as creators and X-Men got the worst of the brunt. It became the worst thing known to man and it made quit comics. Even Andy Kubert could not save those comics. I remember for a good 10 years it became a joke about how much X-Men was still the most-top selling books while being the worst in comics. Nothing could hurt the drones buying the comics. That changed a bit when John Romita Jr. came on board. While still bad it got us..

2. Uncanny X-Men 300. Excellent stand alone story with great work by John Romita Jr. (I tried to read the subsequent issues to no avails)

It continued being a mess even when the popular Joe Madureira was there. Then the big wigs wanted another crossover so Age of Apocalypse came along. Very average and greatly inferior to Days of Futur Past. At least there was Chris Bachalo.

3. Chris Bachalo during AoA was the highlight and the only thing worth mentioning.

4. Few issues of Kelley and Seagle's run with the "New X-Men". I thought it fun and inventive to have a new group of X-Men with similar visual...until it was revealed that they were imaginary being created by Cerebro. Oh Lord...! Anyway at least these characters were cool.

5. I'll put Kid-Omega and his rampage in there during the Morrison run. It was the first time maybe since its debut that you had Morrison and Quitely for a whole storyline. It kicked more ass than all other story before under Morrison. But wasn't that incredible. It was a good effort but sometime felt like Authority rehash.

6. Silent issue. That explains the birth of Cassandra Nova, beautifuly drawn by Frank Quitely.

7. Mark Millar's First Ultimate X-Men storyline. This is the first time i'm going to say that it was awesome from top to bottom. Not any "maybes" like I did with the others. No Mark succeeded because he threw everything but the kitchen sink and did everything we're ever dreamed in a X-Men story: The X-Men vs The Sentinels vs Magneto. Both Cyclops and Wolverine switch sides. Wolverine impales Magneto and Quicksilver turns on his father.

8. Astonishing X-Men

So there you have it. :DGOD, dude, and you have the nerve to call yourself an optimist?? There was a lot of fantastic stuff on that list. I think your bias is showing. :p

Now if CC had kept on, surely the books would have been unmitigated genius, right? :rolleyes:

[Sentinel K]

who's this frank jerkoff

Post of the day, right there!

[DDM]

Wow. A revolving door. Except Lobdell was on for almost 7 years, and spearheaded the x-books (with some help from Fab. Nic who was on for 4) during the time where they were selling more books than anyone.

Marvel could not hold any long term talent on X-Men. For example, Mark Waid was meant to take over from Fabien Nincieza (who has stated it was not fun writing X-Men), but the same editorial interference made Mark Waid leave the book over Onslaught. X-Men shifted from writer to writer such as Fabien Nincieza, Mark Waid, Scott Lobdell, Alan Davis, Chris Claremont, Grant Morrison, Chuck Austen, Peter Milligan, & finally Mike Carey.

Once Scott Lobdell left Uncanny X-Men, a revolving door of talent came in & out as fast as the continual reboots. Steve Seagle & Joe Kelly, Alan Davis, Chris Claremont, Chuck Austen, Joe Kelly, Chris Claremont, & Ed Brubaker....


X-Men & Uncanny X-Men is a revolving door of talent. No one stays long enough for the stories to seed & grow. The continual reboots further damage the X-books than help them.

[dotdotdot]

X-Men shifted from writer to writer such as Fabien Nincieza, Mark Waid, Scott Lobdell, Alan Davis, Chris Claremont, Grant Morrison, Chuck Austen, Peter Milligan, & finally Mike Carey.

plenty of these were long term.



Once Scott Lobdell left Uncanny X-Men, a revolving door of talent came in & out as fast as the continual reboots. Steve Seagle & Joe Kelly, Alan Davis, Chris Claremont, Chuck Austen, Joe Kelly, Chris Claremont, & Ed Brubaker....

so.....every 3 years or so? most of these writers had plenty of time, they just didn't up doing anything with the title (seagle and kelly are exceptions).

[Gene M.]

Don't be sarcastic!
I'm not being sarcastic Novaya.

[jarrod]

so.....every 3 years or so? most of these writers had plenty of time, they just didn't up doing anything with the title (seagle and kelly are exceptions).
Seagle/Kelly didn't end up doing much either really... pre-Morrison, it seemed to me that writers would end up seeding stories and directions that never paid off, likely due to editorial constrainsts of the day. Davis probably had the most freedom and leeway out of anyone, and he even was still having his lineup mandated from on high.

[dotdotdot]

Seagle/Kelly didn't end up doing much either really... pre-Morrison, it seemed to me that writers would end up seeding stories and directions that never paid off, likely due to editorial constrainsts of the day. Davis probably had the most freedom and leeway out of anyone, and he even was still having his lineup mandated from on high.

yeah i really don't believe you can ever blame editorial for a writer's shortcomings. even worse is this idea that writers deserve over 3 years to allow buildup.......you can plant the seeds for something that happens 20-25 issues later. any longer than that and you aren't planning anymore, you're fucking winging it. seagle/kelly managed to keep things fun and unexpected.

that whole davis era needs to be forgotten.

[jarrod]

yeah i really don't believe you can ever blame editorial for a writer's shortcomings.
I'm not talking shortcomings, I'm talking actual progression and change. I loved Kelly/Seagle, but in the end they still accomplished next to nothing in terms of pushing the books forward. Just like every writer under Harras.



that whole davis era needs to be forgotten.
Well, we got a few good issues out of it at least (the whole Rogue/Kurt/Kitty/Lorna/Shiro/Misty stuff was ace, I liked the Kitty/Ro/Gambit issue by Skroce too). Wish we'd have gotten a better scripter though, or Davis had done dialog himself.... it'd have been nice if he wasn't burdened with the Twelve storyline either, which was probably bound to flop no matter who handled it then.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

The only casualties were the plots CC had to abandon. Everything else was fine.

Seconded, eh.

Wouldn't call the 90s mind-blowing but it wasn't that bad.

[dotdotdot]

I'm not talking shortcomings, I'm talking actual progression and change. I loved Kelly/Seagle, but in the end they still accomplished next to nothing in terms of pushing the books forward. Just like every writer under Harras.



i think (if i recall correctly) you can credit kelly/seagle with plenty (whether or not anyone else followed up on these): cannonball as an experienced vet of sorts, big consequences for psylocke, bishop/deathbird in space, and most importantly lots and lots of new characters. compared to dreck like davis's run it pushed the books way forward. i could be confusing several runs though, someone let me know if i'm wrong.

[jarrod]

i think (if i recall correctly) you can credit kelly/seagle with plenty (whether or not anyone else followed up on these): cannonball as an experienced vet of sorts, big consequences for psylocke, bishop/deathbird in space, and most importantly lots and lots of new characters. compared to dreck like davis's run it pushed the books way forward. i could be confusing several runs though, someone let me know if i'm wrong.
You're still just bringing in minor character specific plot threads... Lobdell, Nicezia, Waid, Davis and even Claremont all managed that too. What none of them managed (Kelly and Seagle included) was pushing the books as a whole forward, progressing them into sustainably new territory. The X-Men concept had essentially remained in stasis since 1991, until Harras was out and Morrison was in... and that core lack of progression was most certainly due to an editorial strangehold. It's why Kelly and Seagle left the books actually...

[dotdotdot]

You're still just bringing in minor character specific plot threads... Lobdell, Nicezia, Waid, Davis and even Claremont all managed that too. What none of them managed (Kelly and Seagle included) was pushing the books as a whole forward, progressing them into sustainably new territory. The X-Men concept had essentially remained in stasis since 1991, until Harras was out and Morrison was in... and that core lack of progression was most certainly due to an editorial strangehold. It's why Kelly and Seagle left the books actually...

the rest of them did not introduce as many new characters from what i recall.