LUTHOR and MOCKINGBIRD: Speculation and Explanations *Spoilers*

[Jkid099]

Dunno if this has been brought up before, but I was getting to thinking after I noticed people pointing out how some inkers had continuously seemed to get Luthor's eye color wrong. And then I began to pick up on the fact the eye color seemed to coincide with personality ...

In "Villains United" / "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" / etc. issues where we would encounter the traditional post-crisis businessman Lex Luthor who seemed calm, crafty, reassuring, and capable of manipulation. Either always wearing a suit or simple clothing. This Luthor is always colored with blue eyes.

In "Superman-Batman" / and the Teen Titans / Outsiders crossover - "The Insiders" we have the new seemingly psychotic Lex Luthor who is always wearing his armor suit, rambling about one weird thing or another, and focused on destroying Superman. This one has green eyes.

It's possible they're both the same person and it really is an inker screw up ... or maybe this is some small part of the lead up to Infinite Crisis which will be revealed later?

Food for thought.

[jade_nova]

Could be a mistake on the part of the inker or there a lot of Luthor clones running around. Back in the nineties there was a Lex Luthor clone running around saying that he was Luthor's Australian son, but it turned out to be Luthor's brain in a cloned body. Maybe he made more than one clone.

[Gauss]

The clothes make the man? It could be that the battlesuit Luthor is wearing does more to his mind than he'd care to admit. Certainly Darkseid has never had a very good track record with being trustworthy.

[bert]

agree 100% that there are two. . .

this is a clue leading into the upcoming Crisis

just like over in Batman I'm almost 100% certain that Red Hood/Jason is not "OUR" Jason

[Arvandor]

I thought the 'green eyes' effect was caused by the liquid kryptonite Luthor was injecting into himself.

[Jkid099]

Well the glowing green eyes, yeah, but I think the post-Crisis Luthor had natural green eyes for the last two decades.

[protonik]

Luthor has had red hair and green eyes as long as I could remember, well, when he HAD hair.

Jason

[Napolean Blownapart]

Didn't one of the color kryptonites cause Superman to split into Superman Blue and Superman Red in the pre-crisis days? Maybe on of the color kryptonites caused this to happen to Lex in the post-crisis DC universe. Or maybe it's a mistake by the poor unloved colorist, who even when he screws up has his credit given to the inker. :(

[jadegiant77]

wait...luthor is mainling Kryptonite now? didn't he get cancer the last time he handled that stuff? why is it not doing anything to him now?

[Tony Bang]

wait...luthor is mainling Kryptonite now? didn't he get cancer the last time he handled that stuff? why is it not doing anything to him now?

It takes many years of exposure to affect humans. He's only had his clone body for a few years now.

[SuperManny]

wait...luthor is mainling Kryptonite now? didn't he get cancer the last time he handled that stuff? why is it not doing anything to him now?

Well, that's the problem most of us Super-fans had with Luthor in Superman/Batman #5, where then-President Lex injected himself with Kryptonite, flipping out about the oncoming Kryptonite meteor that was about to destroy the planet. In fact, he became so crazy he created the battle-suit to confront Superman and Batman. So yes, it seems totally irrational after his bout with cancer and the self-preservation he carried around in the Post-Crisis days......but that's over with now ;)

I don't think there are two Luthors anyway. It's just a coloring error, or a pencilling preference. I see the same Luthor anyway -one that is cool and collected during meetings, and the other that likes to go blitz when in confrontation mode.

*prefers subtle corporate Luthor anyway*

[SuperManny]

It takes many years of exposure to affect humans. He's only had his clone body for a few years now.

....and he had the kryptonite ring a few years before it took affect ;) I think the nutty thing is that he injected himself with radioactive material .

Funny how he probably thinks when he's killed by Superman, that he'll be still be able to win :p

[Gauss]

Well, that's the problem most of us Super-fans had with Luthor in Superman/Batman #5, where then-President Lex injected himself with Kryptonite, flipping out about the oncoming Kryptonite meteor that was about to destroy the planet. In fact, he became so crazy he created the battle-suit to confront Superman and Batman. So yes, it seems totally irrational after his bout with cancer and the self-preservation he carried around in the Post-Crisis days......but that's over with now ;)

*prefers subtle corporate Luthor anyway*

I like to think that Luthor started off with Venom, went nuts, and moved on to the Kryptonite.

As Batman says, "If Luthor's been dosing himself with that poison, it almost explains his actions." :D

[Windbreaker]

Wait. I'm confused. Is it general knowledge that the current Lex (in SUPERMAN, BATMAN, VILLAINS UNITED, LEX: MOS, etc.) is a clone body with Lex's brain?

[tymac]

No, the clone body started rapidly aging, and Luthor was going to destroy Metropolis. He did a lot of damage with Lexcorp technology before Superman talked him out of it. Then, after Luthor got his body restored in a deal with Neron, he had another clone created to take the blame for all the destruction.

[SuperManny]

Then, after Luthor got his body restored in a deal with Neron, he had another clone created to take the blame for all the destruction.

So...the answer to Windbreaker's question is actually "yes", because Neron restored Lex's cloned body to a young early 30-something self.

;)

[bones mccoy]

re: clone luthors...

konner i am your father... join the dark side...

[Windbreaker]

And this Luthor business is part of current continuity, right?

[Loren]

And this Luthor business is part of current continuity, right?

That's iffy, because of Birthright.

In Byrne's 'Man of Steel' continuity, Luthor was substantially older than Clark. He'd been a longtime presence in Metropolis before Superman showed up.

With Birthright, Lex is just a few years older than Clark. While this wouldn't preclude the Kryptonite cancer and Neron stuff, it does throw the whole 'Lex has a long-lost grown son' explanation for the cloned body into question. If Lex himself was no more than 35, that makes it awful hard to have an adult son.

Loren

[GremlinClr]

No, the clone body started rapidly aging, and Luthor was going to destroy Metropolis. He did a lot of damage with Lexcorp technology before Superman talked him out of it. Then, after Luthor got his body restored in a deal with Neron, he had another clone created to take the blame for all the destruction.

So have they ever mentioned that clone that's supposedly in jail again? A friend of mine who reads the Super-books told me he didn't think so.

I do believe there are 2 Luthors running around but instead of a clone I think it would be more interesting if the one in VU was Alexander Luthor from Earth 2. Maybe playing the villains against each other.

[EZMOHR]

Maybe Mockingbird is Alexander Luthor?

[Modi]

i hope it's not , having two luthor's sounds awfully corny.

[PatrickG]

Jeph Loeb has said that the reason for the two styles of appearances for Luthor will be addressed before he finishes up for DC.

Personally, I think Lex is cracked and that he's pretending to be the savvy businessman again just to get the villains' trust and that he has scheme to wipe out all life on the planet or something equally creepy.

[Gauss]

Anyone else notice that at least one of the Luthors has started looking a lot older than he should? Not exactly obvious, but his eyebrows do seem to be going a bit gray.

[moebius]

One of the things mentioned in the other threads (and here) is that "pre-Crisis" characters and or characters from Hypertime seem to be breaking through into our world.

So there MIGHT be two Luthors. The Luthor controlling the Society...and the Luthor controlling the Secret Six.

[mohammedali]

One of the things mentioned in the other threads (and here) is that "pre-Crisis" characters and or characters from Hypertime seem to be breaking through into our world.

So there MIGHT be two Luthors. The Luthor controlling the Society...and the Luthor controlling the Secret Six.
I agree. 2 Luthors seems very possible. I think InC is going to essentially be CoIE but with 2 major differences.
1) Do it at an interesting time in the DCU
2) Instead of using the different Earths idea to explain and do away with a mess, use it responcably to make a new story.
Hence, we can now have Luthor vs Luthor in Vill Utd, a great explination for why Jason Todd is back with a lowered moral code (an effect of travelling between Earths), and gives us endless possabilities for who Hush is (including another Batman himself).

Mohammed Ali

[Sabrinaset]

I think it's just bad writing, inconsistent coloring, and nonexistant editing! :)

[RabidWolfe]

I think it's just bad writing, inconsistent coloring, and nonexistant editing! :)


Of course - but that's the raw materials for a really inventive retcon! :D

[Babylon23]

I hadn't really thought much about the 2 Luthors idea, except for how it might impact on Villains United. I had 2 theories:

1) Lex is Mockingbird, and is using the Secret Six to strengthen the bond within the Society. He created a villain to keep the Society united.
2 ) Luthor from "Earth-2" is MOckingbird.

But hey, now that we have 2 Lex Luthors running around anyway, we can come up with all sorts of crazy theories.

As for battle armour mad scientist Luthor, I always preferred him to corporate kingpin Luthor anyway. It didn't really bother me that Lex was heading down his pre-Crisis path.

[trickster]

One of the things mentioned in the other threads (and here) is that "pre-Crisis" characters and or characters from Hypertime seem to be breaking through into our world.

So there MIGHT be two Luthors. The Luthor controlling the Society...and the Luthor controlling the Secret Six.

If it is (a) Luthor controlling the Secret Six. :)
There a lot of inconsistencies about Luthor lately. In S/B 6, I think, after his defeat, he stabs Batman, and there's this talk between him and Batman, where Batman tells him that Thalia depleted all his resources, "sold off his assets", and "as of this morning, Bruce Wayne owns all this building and he wants you off his property."

Okay, leaving aside that following "Death and the Maidens", Talia apparently declared herself an enemy of Batman ("there will be no more beloved here"), so why would she work together with Batman, how in the name of Zeus' butthole can Luthor forget and forgive Talia's betrayal and work with her in the SSOV. There's not the slightest mention about said betrayal in Villains United or the VU tie-ins. Leaving aside that being broke, Luthor would hardly be a major player in said Society, even though he's supposedly a genius.

Second thing that's weird.

Supergirl 0 / S/B 19
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supergirl0096zx.jpg

Here we see Calculator talking to a certain Mr. X who I suppose is the Lex Luthor we see at the end wearing the suit of armor with the kryptonite gem glove, whom he addresses as "Sir", and to Hush.

Now the Luthor in the pages of Villains United, and Calculator are on a first name basis. And also, in Villains United, Lex is never part of the action, and never leaps into battle using his kryptonite powered armor.
So what if there are two Luthors (from alternate realities, maybe?) and Calculator knows both of them?

My crazy theory is that the armored Lex Luthor is not the same Luthor who's leading the Society.

It could be just crazy talk, but what if? :D

[mohammedali]

If it is (a) Luthor controlling the Secret Six. :)
There a lot of inconsistencies about Luthor lately. In S/B 6, I think, after his defeat, he stabs Batman, and there's this talk between him and Batman, where Batman tells him that Thalia depleted all his resources, "sold off his assets", and "as of this morning, Bruce Wayne owns all this building and he wants you off his property."

Okay, leaving aside that following "Death and the Maidens", Talia apparently declared herself an enemy of Batman ("there will be no more beloved here"), so why would she work together with Batman, how in the name of Zeus' butthole can Luthor forget and forgive Talia's betrayal and work with her in the SSOV. There's not the slightest mention about said betrayal in Villains United or the VU tie-ins. Leaving aside that being broke, Luthor would hardly be a major player in said Society, even though he's supposedly a genius.

Second thing that's weird.

Supergirl 0 / S/B 19
http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supergirl0096zx.jpg

Here we see Calculator talking to a certain Mr. X who I suppose is the Lex Luthor we see at the end wearing the suit of armor with the kryptonite gem glove, whom he addresses as "Sir", and to Hush.

Now the Luthor in the pages of Villains United, and Calculator are on a first name basis. And also, in Villains United, Lex is never part of the action, and never leaps into battle using his kryptonite powered armor.
So what if there are two Luthors (from alternate realities, maybe?) and Calculator knows both of them?

My crazy theory is that the armored Lex Luthor is not the same Luthor who's leading the Society.

It could be just crazy talk, but what if? :D

lol. That's what this whole thread is about. It seems possible that there are indeed 2 Luthors that are unaware of each other. This would fit with the whole Infinite Earths idea, as one of the Luthors could be from another Earth just like I assume Jason Todd is.

QUESTION: Last year, what was Luthor more like, 1) The guy in the business suit who never gets his hands too dirty, or 2) The guy in the Kryptonite suit who went on to join Brainiac during the Insiders run?

Mohammed Ali

[G'nort]

On the subject of talia owning luthors building and whatnot...

keep in mind luthor is no longer on the map so to speak. I dont think the public knows that he is still alive after the superman/batman stuff. So having all his money under Talia is a good Idea IF he trusts talia.

[Indigo Al]

What ever happened to the son of the Lex from the Pre-Crisis Crime Syndicate's earth?

I say he's Mockingbird

[trickster]

What ever happened to the son of the Lex from the Pre-Crisis Crime Syndicate's earth?

I say he's Mockingbird

I think there are indeed two Luthors. In Supergirl 1, we see Calculator talking to a Mr X who is a Lex Luthor in a suit of armor who has bushy grey eyebrows, and formally addressing him as "Sir". In Villains United 4 Calculator is calling him Lex. And that Lex is way different: more polite and all, you could almost like him. Not to mention he has black eyebrows.

[d00m]

lol. That's what this whole thread is about. It seems possible that there are indeed 2 Luthors that are unaware of each other. This would fit with the whole Infinite Earths idea, as one of the Luthors could be from another Earth just like I assume Jason Todd is.

QUESTION: Last year, what was Luthor more like, 1) The guy in the business suit who never gets his hands too dirty, or 2) The guy in the Kryptonite suit who went on to join Brainiac during the Insiders run?

Mohammed Ali

I like this theory a lot! Going with the theory, do you think the alternate Lex is the person Pariah described as being greater than society Lex in Villians United #5? (speaking of Villains Untied, wouldn't it be crazy if Mockingbird was alternate-Lex trying to take down society-lex??)

But if they are from alternate universes, how long have they been in the main DCU?

[Rich L]

(speaking of Villains Untied, wouldn't it be crazy if Mockingbird was alternate-Lex trying to take down society-lex??)


That'd be a good twist...and the VU#6 cover does seem to imply that Mockingbird is...follically challenged.

Oh, and mockingbirds traditionally mimic the calls of other birds - maybe the name itself is a clue?

[davros42]

I was wondering what the deal was with the seemingly anomalous "Superfriends" style armored Lex...

I'm buying into the two Lexes theory... Damn, I was skeptical of this whole Infinite Crisis thing, but it really looks like it's ramping up to be something cool... I can't wait to see how it all ties together.

[mohammedali]

(speaking of Villains Untied, wouldn't it be crazy if Mockingbird was alternate-Lex trying to take down society-lex??)
Thats exactly what I think. It makes sence to me...

But if they are from alternate universes, how long have they been in the main DCU?
Well, Todd's been there since the HUSH run. I think Hush dug up Todds grave to show the alt. Todd that Batman let him die, and didn't kill Joker when he could have. As for Lex, that's something I'm not too sure of. This is why I want to know when exactly were there 2 types of Luthors (i.e. the crazy spacesuit Luthor, and the calm business suit Luthor) - and since when... Can anyone help me out on that ?

Mohammed Ali

[d00m]

And anyone know what Luthor's black kryptonite from Supergirl #2 does?

[Kistler]

It hasn't been said in any comic books what black kryptonite does. But in the show Smallville, black kryptonite caused Luthor to split. One was basically the normal Luthor, the other was his darkside magnified into a psychotic version of himself.

Something to think about.

[Napolean Blownapart]

Since Jason Todd is back from the dead, maybe the spacesuit Luthor is the old dead onehanded Luthor that died way back on in Superman. The other suited Luthor of the society is the son/clone/deal-with-the-demon-whatshisname Luthor of current continuity.

[Joker2503]

It hasn't been said in any comic books what black kryptonite does. But in the show Smallville, black kryptonite caused Luthor to split. One was basically the normal Luthor, the other was his darkside magnified into a psychotic version of himself.

So he split into the Lex we see in the Society (smooth, businessman Lex) and the Lex we saw at the end of S/B (battlesuit madman Lex)? Hmm...

Methinks there might be multiple Lexes (Lexi? Lexus?) running around the DCU.

[moebius]

Since Jason Todd is back from the dead, maybe the spacesuit Luthor is the old dead onehanded Luthor that died way back on in Superman. The other suited Luthor of the society is the son/clone/deal-with-the-demon-whatshisname Luthor of current continuity.

The current Luthor is the cloned body of the original Lex, though he has been rejuvenated by Neron after that body failed at one point. The old one-handed body was destroyed by cancer, and Lex's brain and some other vitals (I believe) were transplanted into the clone.

[Phoney Bone]

What ever happened to the son of the Lex from the Pre-Crisis Crime Syndicate's earth?

I say he's Mockingbird

Pariah returned in VU.

Lady Quark is back from the dead in VU.

Harbinger came back in S/B and was killed, but, see above.

Dr. Light II just had a wicked throw-down with Dr. Light I in Green Arrow.

You may be on to something. Alex Luthor is bound to pop up somewhere as the second Luthor, but I don't think he is Mockingbird.

I think mockingbird is Ra's Al Ghul. If anyone on Earth is more of an "apex predator" than Luthor, it's Ra's. That would explain why talia would stoop to being on a team with the likes of Dr. Psycho and Luthor... she is Ra's plant in the Society. It would also explain the rejuvination of Catman from his sorry state in Green Arrow... a dip in the ol' Lazarus Pit.

[superlurker]

Two Luthors? While his styles certainly differ, I'm not sure there's really any conclusive evidence of such a theory, if you examine the chronology of events carefully.

Black kryptonite would have appeared on Earth only after the armored Luthor made his first appearance in Superman/Batman -- and that story made it clear that Luthor was also business-like enough prior to that. So if a culprit for a possible divergence is to be found, your friendly neighborhood Psycho-Pirate may be a valid, off-panel go-to guy for importing alternate reality Luthors.

But there was a lot of hoopla being made for a while in Infinite Crisis about Luthor recovering his armor. In Teen Titans, it was noted that wearing the armor apparently was somewhat euphoric. Which, together with the effect of shooting up drugs and kryptonite, would certainly help explain divergent behavioral patterns.

That Calculator has referred to the armored Luthor as "Mr. X" isn't exactly conclusive. They've been shown on a first- or second-name basis in other cases. And their relationship may have developed over time, as the Society formed.

Luthor is up to a lot of no good, but that doesn't really require two of him. Differences in things like eye color and eyebrow shape is fairly easy to ascribe to different artists and colorists. A consistent pattern is harder to dismiss, though. One question that may be relevant is where did Luthor and Calculator learn the effects of different colored kryptonite? That may either support the idea that there's a Pre-Crisis Luthor, or at least that he has knowledge of that era. Or that he's been conducting some off-panel experiments.

Whatever Luthor's deal with Darkseid is would seem to be key. Recall that Luthor apparently got the armor from Darkseid -- in the same arc where Luthor first uttered the word Crisis with all the villainous emphasis he could muster. And those two first arcs essentially dealt with Supergirl's approach and arrival.

[Squashua]

MOCKINGBIRD:
Who is Mockingbird is a mystery that really contains itself to Villains United. That makes me think that womever Mockingbird is has already been introduced within the confines of that comic. And traditionally, writers tend to kill off the "killer" near the beginning to throw off the reader. That's why I would like to think that The Fiddler is Mockingbird and Deadshot was working for him.

That's why I don't think it's Sivana or Anti-Monitor or any of those long-shots. It could be Deathstroke, but he has not been shown in VU with any amount of prominence.

2 LUTHORS:
Even more evidence, if you try to coordinate the JSA: Classified Power Girl stuff with the Supergirl standalone comic issues, you can see Luthor appear in both. In JSA he's the Society Luthor addressing Psycho Pirate. In Supergirl he's the Battlesuit Luthor addressing Calculator. In Supergirl he's no longer "Mr. X", but is addressed as "Luthor".

The involvement/capture of Pariah and Lady Quark in Villains United shows us that someone in the Society (Psycho Pirate definately, maybe Society Luthor???) knows about their connection to CoiE.

Society Luthor is also working with Talia, who screwed Lex Luthor over in the past. There is CoiE knowledge being used here.

This is why I think that Society Luthor may be Pre-Crisis Alexander Luthor.

And that Mockingbird is the Battlesuit Luthor.

Consider the Society Luthor working with Talia who would have therefore screwed over the Battlesuit Luthor.

Of course, this potentially hurts my theory that "Mockingbird" is introduced early, but it might be pretty interesting to see the last page of Villains United #6 reveal 2 Luthors.

And it still doesn't explain Jason Todd.

[Squashua]

One question that may be relevant is where did Luthor and Calculator learn the effects of different colored kryptonite? That may either support the idea that there's a Pre-Crisis Luthor, or at least that he has knowledge of that era. Or that he's been conducting some off-panel experiments.

He mentions Green, Red and Blue, right?

Post-Crisis Superman has been exposed to all three of them at various times during the Superman issues. I distinctly remember Blue hurting Post-Crisis Bizzaro #1 somewhere.

[joint venture]

Call me crazy, but I think it's the Joker.

Mad enough to elaborate a crisis this huge? Probably not. But as one of the DC "Alpha" Villains, not being around for so long, it can only mean he is in for something huge.

My money's on the Joker.

[Squashua]

Call me crazy, but I think it's the Joker.

See, that's where I'm going with my theory. There's no precedent laid out in Villains United for The Joker. Not that Joker (or Sivana, who I'd love Mockingbird to be) is not a bad guess, and would be a neat idea, but if you could potentially read VU 1-6 without prior knowledge of a bunch of these characters, you'd see that so far, Joker never once made an appearance.

There's no motive, not that it's necessary with someone like The Joker, but there's just no precedent.

With Joker as Mockingbird revealed, people would ask, "Well, where was he the other 5 issues?". Mockingbird has to be someone who we've already seen in the prior 5 issues, preferably someone we met in issue 1, 2, or 3.

This is why the "Two Luthors" theory sort of works; we've seen "Lex Luthor" in charge of the Society, and we think it's Lex because we know it can't possibly be anyone else, but if it turns out to be "Alexander Luthor", we're presented with a "neat twist" and have to go back and examine his prior actions.

[joint venture]

I still think that the Joker may have been involved to some extent. If not, then how is he to play a big role on IC???. I cannot recall the source, but I know for good that he has an important role inside Infinite Crisis.

I suppose the key is in the eye-color. But they told us to be careful with that on Identity Crisis and, that some clues could be found in there. Eye color.

There must be an impersonator somewhere. Not the Deathstroke-plays-Batman kind, but some character twisted and inteligent enough to suffer such a pathological disorder. Bent on changing the status quo.

I find Luthor's club-house just to be a safe-haven for him. No purpose but to band villains together so he can cover his ass should something happen. As usual. So perhaps, if you theory were true, it would make sense that he would surround himself with all the other villains to cover from the 'real' Luthor.

But this current continuity Luthor is just too smart to play games. It's a really nice character.

It has to be someone unseen and unexpected, writers expectus to play with the same cards as in Identity Crisis, follow a pattern...play Clue.

[Squashua]

What I read about eye color in Identity Crisis was (and someone posted this theory somewhere) that every time that Jean (or even The Atom) did something crazy and somewhat out of character, their eye color changed. Supposedly this can be seen in their bedroom discussion. As if something was controlling them.

If that's true, I'd chalk it up to Despero.

[joint venture]

Have you thought tha Alexander Luthor is Luthor IV, and our Villains United are called The Six?

4 +6 = 10 is the number.

im lost.

hey! the only bird i see mocking around is Jason Todd, the Red Hood or Robin 2, whatever you wanna call him. is he this big? nah...

[Chris Thomas]

Have you thought tha Alexander Luthor is Luthor VI, and our Villains United are called The Six?

6 is the number.

I thought alex was luther IV (the one from COIE) unless you mean a different alex luther like clone luther

I still think alexander is running around and could be mockingbird. how about superboy prime being mocking bird? or lois lane-kent with a touch of insanity? how about me being insane? why am I spelling luthor with an e?

[joint venture]

heh...

how about earth-prime superboy, luthor, earth-one louis lane and superman plus the psycho pirate all blessed by pariah converted into one huge anti-anti-monitor!!???

truth is we know nothing. damn.

wonder if this post-crisis fellas are gonna show up. pariah already did...

dude i got that Luthor VI from one of your posts, my mistakp; should have gone back to my facts and tpbs. So you say it's IV. cool enough...oops and sorry.

then, I believe it's LUTHOR not Luther, the Luther you refer to might be Martin Luther King.

if i'm wrong, dudes please correct me. :eek:

[Chris Thomas]

heh...

how about earth-prime superboy, luthor, earth-one louis lane and superman plus the psycho pirate all blessed by pariah converted into one huge anti-anti-monitor!!???

truth is we know nothing. damn.

wonder if this post-crisis fellas are gonna show up. pariah already did...

dude i got that Luthor VI from one of your posts, my mistakp; should have gone back to my facts and tpbs. So you say it's IV. cool enough...oops and sorry.

then, I believe it's LUTHOR not Luther, the Luther you refer to might be Martin Luther King.

if i'm wrong, dudes please correct me. :eek:


My original mistake I agree--I saw I did that. I need remedial roman numeral class.

I have a gut feeling that all four of the folks that dissapeared inside of Luthor IV are coming back. that 4 includes luthor IV himself.

although I like the idea of them all combining into the anti anti monitor.

btw--where is uncle monitor?

[Davmeister84]

I have nothing to toss in as regards two Luthors or not, but I did notice that the last issue of Villains United is shipping same week as Infinite Crisis #1.

Granted we already eliminated two of the other miniseries as the ones with the "big giant lead-in" to Infinite Crisis, but I can't see DC shipping out the blockbuster issue before Infinite Crisis. They'd want their readers to read the last mini issue and go "HOLY CRAP!" and jump right to Crisis.

Assuming that, it's safe to guess that the revelation of Mockingbird's identity will be the big mess that leads right to the Crisis. Which, in my opinion, kind of eliminates the Joker. Awesome villain and all, but not Crisis expected levels villain.

Two Luthors, on the other hand, especially if one is a pre-CoIE Luthor....

[Chris Thomas]

if I count luthors correctly, and trust me--that is not a given-- there were basically 3 precrisis luthor's and one peri-crisis luthor (luthor IV) and two post crisis luthors.


precrisis:
one luthor is, in some form, the current luthor
one luthor was the earth 3 luthor who died when his world blew up (good luthor)
one luthor was fried by braniac in COIE rather unceremoniously because he ran his yacker off

pericrisis is luthor IV (son of good luthor from pre-crisis earth 3) who technically is living in some bizzare utopia with lois lane kent, superman I and superboy prime. btw--I can guess what l-l-kent and superman I are doing. what are the other 2 doing? )

post crisis

current luthor
new luthor from the negative energy universe (ultraman,and the rests enemy.) supposedly a good luthor

also, as noted above, luthor IV.

now, we know who one luthor would be in the 2 luthor hypothesis. who is the other luthor?

[Gingold]

if I count luthors correctly, and trust me--that is not a given-- there were basically 3 precrisis luthor's and one peri-crisis luthor (luthor IV) and two post crisis luthors.


precrisis:
one luthor is, in some form, the current luthor
one luthor was the earth 3 luthor who died when his world blew up (good luthor)
one luthor was fried by braniac in COIE rather unceremoniously because he ran his yacker off

pericrisis is luthor IV (son of good luthor from pre-crisis earth 3) who technically is living in some bizzare utopia with lois lane kent, superman I and superboy prime. btw--I can guess what l-l-kent and superman I are doing. what are the other 2 doing? )

post crisis

current luthor
new luthor from the negative energy universe (ultraman,and the rests enemy.) supposedly a good luthor

also, as noted above, luthor IV.

now, we know who one luthor would be in the 2 luthor hypothesis. who is the other luthor?


The current Post-Crisis Luthor was spent sometime masquarading as his own adult son, though it turned out it was his brain transported into a younger clone, though he was restored later by Neron. There's plenty of oportunities for another Luthor wandering around there.

Plus Superboy is a partial clone of Lex as well. Or....maybe he's actually a combination of Alex Luthor and Superboy Prime..?

[Squashua]

The Fiddler.

I was re-reading Identity Crisis recently. Watch Caclulator. In Issue #4 during the "who benefits", it looks like The Fiddler offers Calculator $3000 to do a job. I think that at this time Fiddler must have either been with the Six or he's starting them up. Something is up.

[cmndob]

Plus Superboy is a partial clone of Lex as well. Or....maybe he's actually a combination of Alex Luthor and Superboy Prime..?

This is at least the best use of Titans/Luthor/CoIC tie ins I've heard so far...which makes me believe Johns would go this route. Kon-El being cloned from Lex and Supes and Alexander Luthor DEFINITLEY showing up in IC (I asked Dan Didio) leads to this storyline being too intruiging to pass up.


But I guess we won't know until we know. :rolleyes:

[Chris Thomas]

Isn't the fiddler dead? killed by deadshot in VU?

[joint venture]

The backwater swamp hoppin' redneck drama queen known as the fiddler. the same one who owns a Strad (antique Stradivarius violin) was shot by Deadshot in VU. I would expect him to be very much dead.

Dead.

[Squashua]

Isn't the fiddler dead? killed by deadshot in VU?

That's what Fiddler and Deadshot WANT you to think.

I mean, really. Mockingbird has got to be either

a) Someone we've seen before in the book.

or

b) Someone HUGE that everyone knows, whether or not he's been shown in the book so far.

or

c) Someone we've seen in the book and we all ASSUMED the character was whom he was supposed to be, but actually Mockingbird is that person's duplicate/double/clone/parallel.

It's not going to be someone brand new. Wouldn't make sense.

[d00m]

It's not going to be someone brand new. Wouldn't make sense.


Well it could be..

[trickster]

The Fiddler.

I was re-reading Identity Crisis recently. Watch Caclulator. In Issue #4 during the "who benefits", it looks like The Fiddler offers Calculator $3000 to do a job. I think that at this time Fiddler must have either been with the Six or he's starting them up. Something is up.

Cool. I didn't even notice that at the time.
So Captain Boomerang is looking for money. Fiddler wants something done, Calculator asks for $3000, Fiddler refuses at first, but then agrees to pay up. So now Calculator starts looking for someone willing to do a quick job for 3000 and he finally settles for his old friend Captain Boomerang. So CB goes to the Drake house, kills Jack Drake but also gets himself killed. That makes it look like Fiddler ordered a hit on Jack Drake!
However later, in issue six we have Calculator speaking to Merlyn, and he says "a call came in for a hit on Drake... he wanted to be kept anonymous and he wanted someone cheap. I figured Boomerang was due". So I wonder if this is an inconsistency in the story or a deception??

[Squashua]

Cool. I didn't even notice that at the time.

The only reason I did is because I was going through my stacks and happened to see the black-background Wonder Woman cover issue and decided to just flip through it and see if I could spot the eyball iris changes in the Palmers that others had mentioned, thereby possibly reinforing the "Despero did it" theory.


So Captain Boomerang is looking for money. Fiddler wants something done, Calculator asks for $3000, Fiddler refuses at first, but then agrees to pay up. So now Calculator starts looking for someone willing to do a quick job for 3000 and he finally settles for his old friend Captain Boomerang. So CB goes to the Drake house, kills Jack Drake but also gets himself killed. That makes it look like Fiddler ordered a hit on Jack Drake!
However later, in issue six we have Calculator speaking to Merlyn, and he says "a call came in for a hit on Drake... he wanted to be kept anonymous and he wanted someone cheap. I figured Boomerang was due". So I wonder if this is an inconsistency in the story or a deception??

Well, I think that Merlyn refused it and Calculator didn't want him to know that it was the same job, thereby making it look like Calculator couldn't give a rat's ass about Merlyn.

I'm still not sure if either (1) Fiddler called it in or (2) Fiddler refused it, but the order of offer is potentially Fiddler, Merlyn, Boomerang - this is assuming Fiddler didn't order the hit, but according to the text he might have. I think the text could be read either way, as in "$3000" isn't enough.

Of course, if Fiddler did order the hit, then he could have been working as a liason for Mockingbird. Then-again, supposedly it was Jean Loring who ordered the hit.

[trickster]

The only reason I did is because I was going through my stacks and happened to see the black-background Wonder Woman cover issue and decided to just flip through it and see if I could spot the eyball iris changes in the Palmers that others had mentioned, thereby possibly reinforing the "Despero did it" theory.



Well, I think that Merlyn refused it and Calculator didn't want him to know that it was the same job, thereby making it look like Calculator couldn't give a rat's ass about Merlyn.

I'm still not sure if either (1) Fiddler called it in or (2) Fiddler refused it, but the order of offer is potentially Fiddler, Merlyn, Boomerang - this is assuming Fiddler didn't order the hit, but according to the text he might have. I think the text could be read either way, as in "$3000" isn't enough.

Of course, if Fiddler did order the hit, then he could have been working as a liason for Mockingbird. Then-again, supposedly it was Jean Loring who ordered the hit.

The damn wording is so ambiguous. Now that you've got me started, I'm just wondering if the conversation went a little like this: (remember we don't know what Fiddler is saying, it's more like he's the one looking to hire someone through Calculator, and not Calculator offering him the job. Why I think this? Because you only say to someone "I've heard of you" when it's the other guy who's introducing himself.") And it does makes sense, especially after we see C. Boomerang begging for any job no matter how small in Identity Crisis 3.

F: Hey, this is Fiddler.
C: Oh, yeah, Fiddler, I've heard of you.
F: I need someone for a hit on a guy called Jack Drake. Don't need a heavy hitter. ASAP. Right now.
C: Right now? Yeah, I can do it, but it'll cost you 3 grand.
F: That's kind of expensive.
C: Yeah, well that's because I raised my prices.
F: It's too much, the guy doesn't have any superpowers.
C: I understand. If you need me, you have my number. Sorry we couldn't do business.
Boomerang (who was hoping to get some money): Fiddler's cheap. (As in "a cheapskate who won't even pay $3000 for a murder", maybe?).
So Calculator tries Merlyn first who doesn't bother, and he finally settles for
Boomerang.
Although if Fiddler were the one who ordered the hit, why would Calculator say it was someone anonymous who did?
Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. :D

changes in the Palmers that others had mentioned,

Between which and which issue? I don't remember seeing this mentioned on these boards before.

[Squashua]

Nice summary; that's how I read it too.


Although if Fiddler were the one who ordered the hit, why would Calculator say it was someone anonymous who did?


He said it to Merlyn, and I guess only Boomerang knew who it was, so maybe it was a different job, or maybe Calculator did not want Merlyn to know it was The Fiddler and decided to not tell him.

Between which and which issue? I don't remember seeing this mentioned on these boards before.

I read on the DC Boards (somewhere) that someone's Identity Crisis theory is that everyone is being mind controlled. If you watch the pupils of certain characters, they turn gray (or some other color) when they are acting out of character, supposedly multiple times during the betime scene with Ray and Jean, as each is mind controlled in sequence to have a conversation that backs the other one up. I thought that was a bit of a reach (no Elongated Man jokes intended), but supposedly there are other times in the series when this happens as well, and the times when the pupils are that certain color, the mind control is in effect.

I think I recall noticing it, and did chalk it up as potential mind control, but dismissed it at the conclusion of the series as artist inconsistency.

Said poster was speculating J'onn or Hammond as the controller, but with Identity Crisis II, aka "Crisis of Conscience", in JLA and the big reveal showing Despero... I could totally see Despero doing a bit of long-distance control, and was hoping that they would reveal him as the actual mastermind behind Identity Crisis, having driven Jean Loring and later... Max Lord... insane.

I think that would have been a neat twist to tie a lot of actions together.

I would think that Despero would want vengeance on the JLI members for having L-Ron inhabit his body. I wonder how they resolved that. I never read that expensive JLA/JSA crossover that involved Despero's ghost.

[Chris Thomas]

I'm just gonna say that in a world with luthor, braniac, black adam, silvana, deathstroke, darksied, etc. why would 'the fiddler' ever play a major role in any dc event?

I'm standing by the 'fiddler's dead and was a b or c lister anyway' story.

[LordEd1976]

Over in the "Who is Mockingbird?" thread, I posted that Fiddler is pushing up daisies.

I doubt Fiddler was the one who ordered the Jack Drake hit. A guy like Calculator has several projects going on at the same time. The Jack Drake hit and whatever Fiddler was calling about are probably two seperate things. The one who ordered the hit was probably Loring herself. She probably disguised her voice somehow. (I only say that is a famous divorcee like Loring would no doubt be recognized by a guy like calculator if he heard her voice.)

[thetube]

Yes, there are TWO Luthors. The one is not a clone either.

[Squashua]

Well, yeah. It's Pre-Crisis Crime Syndicate-world Alexander Luthor (not Morrison Earth-2 Luthor... puh-lease).

[LordEd1976]

It can't be Earth-3 Alexander Luthor. He died in CoIE #1 when he and his wife were hit by Anti-Matter. As far as I know, no one who was struck by the anti-matter wave has come back. The Morrison CSA and anyone from that world don't count because they are different indivuals

[joint venture]

It was another Luthor.

The real one they say. I have seen all this build up since the Green Suit Luthor escaped from Batman and Superman. He did mention the word crisis on that issue...

What I want to see is this Earth-2 Luthor The Impostor fighting Green Suit Luthor. Which one will survive and how do we know who he is exactly...that still remains a mystery.

Great thread guys.

[Lex]

Well, I have to hand it to whomever first came up with this idea. I thought it was just speculation fueled by a coloring error. I was surprised.

[jadegiant77]

so...confused...is the other luthor a parallel Luthor? Do we really need an evil twin of someone who is ALREADY evil?

[Apathy Boy]

You folks are very clever. All this time, I thought DC was just being sloppy.

[Nick Kal]

Wow, good call!

[joint venture]

I do not think it is an alternate Luthor but someone posing as him. There is no credible explanation as to why there would be another Lex Luthor.

Mind control has never been a huge tool for writers inside the DCU until now. You have all sorts of wackos, mind controllers, telepaths and that sort of stuff at Marvel; usually around the X-Men. But I cannot recall as a kid to read the adventures of a huge telepath or telekinetic character inside DC. We have Despero, Hector Hammond, Max Lord, Psimon, Dr. Psycho, the Martian Manhunter, Eclipso and some others.

But none have been so prominent until recently. Martian Manhunter can shapeshift anytime, and could block psyche-attacks. Perhaps him or someone similar is the Luthor impostor.

Or you could take it to the extreme and ask yourself where did that hairy Kenny G Luthor clone went. Are there more clones?

[ApexPredator]

man dont you just love it when ou can finally look back on a thread anbd go to the exact point in time where someone said it and got it right. Then its pretty funny to go back and read all the controversy and arguing. I gotta say that it was pretty trippy to follow this thread and then to see the pages where the truth is revealed in VU #6. Great work guys...

but who would have thought that there would be THREE luthors running around?

youdidntjustfallforthatdidyou?

[lonewolf23k]

I'm just gonna say that in a world with luthor, braniac, black adam, silvana, deathstroke, darksied, etc. why would 'the fiddler' ever play a major role in any dc event?

I'm standing by the 'fiddler's dead and was a b or c lister anyway' story.

Yeah, Fiddler's dead. In fact, they replaced him in the last Villainy United book with a female violinist called "Virtuoso". ...Frankly, I already like her better.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I must also give my respect to those who spotted the two Luthors thing so early. Good eye boys, good eye.

[RedneckJedi]

Just to throw in my 2 cents, and unless I missed it, don't forget about the post-Crisis Lex Luthor from the anti-matter (Crime Syndicate) universe. Those stories pointed out the potential repercussions of unbalancing the matter and anti-matter universe when more of one occupies the other. Perhaps the anti-matter Luthor has spent too much time in the matter universe, causing the disruptions in the universe.

Just wild speculation!

[Jkid099]

I'd like to thank a late night Corona discussion for the formation of this theory.

[mdg1]

I can't tell for certain, thanks to Quitely's art, but the fact that the only difference between Qward-Lex and regular Lex was "every 8th angstrom on his DNA" or suchlike, that rather implies they had the same eye color. :)

That rules him out for alternate Lex, since alt-Lex has blue eyes. Furthermore, alt-Lex knew about Pariah & Lady Quark, but DIDN'T know about Oracle. Really, the pre-Crisis Earth-1 Luthor is the only candidate.

[ACK!]

Let us not forget the pre-Crisis On Infinite Earths Alexander Luthor, who was actually a hero. He probably doesn't figure into this debate, but I just thought I'd mention it. :D

[mdg1]

He died, in CoIE #1, as I recall.

[Lester C.]

Wow just wow. You guys did an excellent job picking up a major Infinite Crisis subplot months before it was even hinted at let alone made official.

[converge241]

I can't tell for certain, thanks to Quitely's art, but the fact that the only difference between Qward-Lex and regular Lex was "every 8th angstrom on his DNA" or suchlike, that rather implies they had the same eye color. :)

That rules him out for alternate Lex, since alt-Lex has blue eyes. Furthermore, alt-Lex knew about Pariah & Lady Quark, but DIDN'T know about Oracle. Really, the pre-Crisis Earth-1 Luthor is the only candidate.

a pre-crisis earth 1 luthor wouldnt know pariah..cause he would be pre-crisis...before pariah appeared

if he did know him he would know that pariah cant die thats his curse...earth 1 luthor had his memory wiped out after the villians mission to stop Krona as only the heroes who were at the dawn of time recalled everything (then that got booted in the final battle where everyone's mind went hazy on what the crisis was except for psycho-pirate for a while and now all the others who "know" again)

what might be possible is maybe wayyyyyy back luthor made some deal with someone to get this dual identity (i dont know just a long shot guess)

[Psyco panda]

I'm just getting into DC (thank you Bendis for driving me away from Marvel!) Could someone please edumacate me? I just read VU#6, and I got the distinct impression Luthor 2 was Mockingbird, no if and or buts about it. Although there was a slight inconsistency because he said he choose Catman for his team, and yet fails to mention anything about Fiddler at all. But anyway, why is there so much debate about who mockingbird was?

Also, why would Fiddler A) want Robin's dad dead, and B) know who Robin's dad was? I never thought he was much of a Batman villain.

[malephoenix]

Okay. My request is as follows, and I'm not putting the spoiler tags on this because "spoilers" is in the title of this thread.

I just can't follow which Luthor is which. Can someone give me a CLEAR rundown??????

Thanks. (At least for trying.)

[Rich L]

The Lex Luthor we've known since Man of Steel - the older businessman who contracted radiation poisoning from a kryptonite ring, had his brain transplanted into a younger cloned body, was eventually restored to full baldy health by Neron, became President and then degenerated into a raving madman in a battlesuit thanks to a combo of Venom and kryptonite - is Mockingbird.

The other Luthor, the Luthor who has been running the Society, is another Luthor. Whats odd is that he knows he is. I suspect this Luthor was the Luthor in the recent Superman reboot, Birthright.

But we'll see...

[stealthwise]

So is this, like, a multiverse thing?

Are the two Superman origins completely different things that happened?

[Gaz]

So is this, like, a multiverse thing?

Are the two Superman origins completely different things that happened?
That would be one way round the problems,certainly, and fits this.

[stealthwise]

That would be one way round the problems,certainly, and fits this.

So... would that make Birthright an alternate universe? Or would that make the Man of Steel one an alternate? Are we going to see two Supermans (not the golden age or the Superboy prime either) in this?

[pureclint]

The Lex Luthor we've known since Man of Steel - the older businessman who contracted radiation poisoning from a kryptonite ring, had his brain transplanted into a younger cloned body, was eventually restored to full baldy health by Neron, became President and then degenerated into a raving madman in a battlesuit thanks to a combo of Venom and kryptonite - is Mockingbird.

The other Luthor, the Luthor who has been running the Society, is another Luthor. Whats odd is that he knows he is. I suspect this Luthor was the Luthor in the recent Superman reboot, Birthright.

But we'll see...


We really do not know the details yet. The Society Luthor was president according to VU 6 or at least did some work as the President. As of now we have no clue which Luthor has done what.

[Jack Tango]

We really do not know the details yet. The Society Luthor was president according to VU 6 or at least did some work as the President. As of now we have no clue which Luthor has done what.

I figured he only implied that he was the same, and the information that he's not the same Luthor was kept from the other members of the Society,

[pureclint]

I figured he only implied that he was the same, and the information that he's not the same Luthor was kept from the other members of the Society,


Thats possible, but he did know about and have control of the Satellites which were funded by Luthor as President. We also know that a Luthor wearing the battle suit has helped recruit people for the Society.

As of now it seems all but impossible to say what Luthor has done what in the past or when the new Luthor appeared and the old one went into hiding etc.

Superman/Batman 25, the VU one shot and IC should clear it up.

[The Adventurer]

Also, The Real Luthor, the one who was President and then went crazy and got himself a power suit, who is also Mockingbird, has Green Eyes.

The Imposter Luthor running the Socity has Blue Eyes.

So track Luthor's eyes in his varrious appearances and you'll know who is who.

[malephoenix]

As of now we have no clue which Luthor has done what.

This is what I was looking for. Is this true? Are we still in the dark as to which one has really done what?

So track Luthor's eyes in his varrious appearances and you'll know who is who.

Or is this true? Is it really that simple? If it is, why hasn't someone who has all the issues compiled an online list of who did what?

[derekwc]

Starting from what point? Superman/Batman #6???

I still don't get where Azzarello's Luthor mini, The Question, and Lee and Az's
Superman run fit into all this?

And Luthor is a fugitive on the run in most comics--but not in THe Question
and or the self -Titled mini... :confused:

[Guts/Batman]

I agree with Clint.

Until further evidence shows up, we have no clue what Luthor has done what?

Or if there is yet another Luthor running around (not counting Alex Luthor)...

[Bored at 3:00AM]

As I understand it, The Question & Lex Luthor mini-series involving the Science Spire took place a few years in the past, prior to Luthor becoming President or his decent into full-blown super-villainy.

[Pookienick]

Wasn't one of the Luthors seen with Black Kryptonite in a comic recently (Superman/Batman or Supergirl wasn't it?)? If I remember correctly doesn't this split someone into two people (as in the Smallville series?). Been a hard day at work so my memory is suffering at the moment.

Anybody know anything about this?

[Rich L]

Yep, Battlesuit Luthor (Mockingbird) was seen to have black K in his glove in Supergirl #2 - and he just kind of grinned when asked what it did. I don't think that black K has been seen before in the DCU but as you noted, it split Smallville's Lex in two in the show. Coincedence? Well, Loeb is a producer on the show...

[Squashua]

Society Lex Luthor is not Alexander Luthor from Earth-3 - Alexander Luthor still has his hair.

Society Lex Luthor is not Businessman/Neron-Revived Evil Lex Luthor of Post-Crisis DCU - that Luthor is now "Battlesuit Luthor".

Society Lex Luthor is a slightly "nice guy" with his own agenda.

Since the universe was altered in such a way that Crime Syndicate Dimension characters can stay in the Post-Crisis DCU dimension... Society Luthor is likely the Crime Syndicate Earth's Lex Luthor. We haven't seen him since the "Earth-2" special, and we've seen the Crime Syndicate many times since.

[Sk8maven]

Society Lex Luthor is a slightly "nice guy" with his own agenda.

Since the universe was altered in such a way that Crime Syndicate Dimension characters can stay in the Post-Crisis DCU dimension... Society Luthor is likely the Crime Syndicate Earth's Lex Luthor. We haven't seen him since the "Earth-2" special, and we've seen the Crime Syndicate many times since.Crime Syndicate Earth's Lex Luthor would be a hero, not a villlain. And I don't think "Society Lex" is all that "nice" - he just seems to be playing "spoiler" for some reason we don't yet know.

Maven

[The Adventurer]

Yeah, the dick shot Parah is the guts.

That's not very nice ata ll.

[Gaz]

Crime Syndicate Earth's Lex Luthor would be a hero, not a villlain. And I don't think "Society Lex" is all that "nice" - he just seems to be playing "spoiler" for some reason we don't yet know.

Maven
Yeah, the only difference seems to be the scale they're working on. Battlesuit Lex seems to be in it for all the marbles.

[Toonimator]

I missed VU and a lot of this stuff, but based on reading this here board, the Black K idea could be the most feasible right now. Perhaps Lex figured out what it did, having a "good Lex/bad Lex" split, but realizing the potential the "bad" Lex got himself back together and decided to experiment in controlling where the split lies, so instead of "good" and "bad" it's "calculating Lex" and "insane Lex" or something along those lines. Certain characteristics were the dividing line, to better enact his plans.

However, I still can't get over how Lex went total bonkers in S/B, enough to be injecting himself with Kryptonite & Venom and declaring Superman a wanted criminal simply because part of his destroyed planet was on a collision course with Earth... the leap of logic required for Lex to do EITHER of those things doesn't make sense given the intelligent guy he's been portrayed as, but could be supported if it's revealed that somehow a 2nd nutso-Lex replaced the tycoon Lex while he was President, and both have been engineering a comeback ever since. If that's the case, black kryptonite can't be the culprit, unless it was synthetically created (as in the TV show).

The idea that the Mockingbird Lex is the Birthright Lex is interesting. Maybe part of IC is to further cement "Birthright" as the new origin and this is part of it, treating it as something of an alternate universe that by the end will become merged with the main DCU.

[derekwc]

As I understand it, The Question & Lex Luthor mini-series involving the Science Spire took place a few years in the past, prior to Luthor becoming President or his decent into full-blown super-villainy.
I guess that works for the Question...odd how the Lex mini tho features
the bad blood between Bats and Supes tho...seems more up to date to me...

[Guts/Batman]

In VU #5 when the Society take a vote on a quick solution to the Secret Six problem, Luthor said that he had done that before and ended up on the short end of the stick when he had done something like that.

Going along with the Secret Six Luthor playing for all the marbles, Society Luthor wants to slow play the situation.

Could that be a clue as to where he is from? Was there a Luthor in the Crisis who bought it by being a "sacrifice"?

[joint venture]

I had to read and go back to everything...

I said it couldn't be another Luthor. Yet, re-reading COIE I noticed that when Brainiac sent for all the villains so they could band together and take control; there were 2 Luthors.

Yes, Two Luthors. The Earth-1 Green Battlesuit is appointed leader by Brainiac. And that does not ring cool to this other Luthor. He says something like: ' I am the Earth 2 Luthor and my intellect surpases this Earth-1 Luthor by far, I should be in charge, not him'.

Brainiac's reaction is to zap him with a similar kindo of ray like the one used to summon every other villain. He says this 'Luthor's services are no longer needed. Farewell...'

As the other villains stare in awe, everything is left open for this character to return. The right thing would be to think that Brainiac zapped him out of existence...but it is an open door. Definetely.

What do you guys think? I will bring scans and post them tomorrow.

[joint venture]

I noticed that President Luthor's eyes were green. They also became light-glowing green when he injected himself with that serum that contains synthetized kryptonyte.

Mockingbird showed brown eyes.

Should we abandon this theory or does it still ring a bit of truth?

[converge241]

I had to read and go back to everything...

I said it couldn't be another Luthor. Yet, re-reading COIE I noticed that when Brainiac sent for all the villains so they could band together and take control; there were 2 Luthors.

Yes, Two Luthors. The Earth-1 Green Battlesuit is appointed leader by Brainiac. And that does not ring cool to this other Luthor. He says something like: ' I am the Earth 2 Luthor and my intellect surpases this Earth-1 Luthor by far, I should be in charge, not him'.

Brainiac's reaction is to zap him with a similar kindo of ray like the one used to summon every other villain. He says this 'Luthor's services are no longer needed. Farewell...'

As the other villains stare in awe, everything is left open for this character to return. The right thing would be to think that Brainiac zapped him out of existence...but it is an open door. Definetely.

What do you guys think? I will bring scans and post them tomorrow.


thats a cool theory..i loved that scene in COIE never thought of that possibility

[joint venture]

I will bring the scans tomorrow so we can discuss this further. It would be a neat idea to talk about. If Superman,Superboy, Lois Lane and Alexander Luthor can come back, I do not see why this should not be a possibility.

[marshal99]

Earth 2 Luthor has red hair and is more bloodthirsty than his earth 1 counterpart. See DC presents annual 1 showcasing earth 1,2 & 3 Luthors & the 2 superman & CSA ultraman.

[Chip Whitley]

Until the scans are ready, if anyone's interested the scene's on:

Issue #9, page 4
TPB page 247

[PatrickG]

However, I still can't get over how Lex went total bonkers in S/B, enough to be injecting himself with Kryptonite & Venom and declaring Superman a wanted criminal simply because part of his destroyed planet was on a collision course with Earth... the leap of logic required for Lex to do EITHER of those things doesn't make sense given the intelligent guy he's been portrayed as, but could be supported if it's revealed that somehow a 2nd nutso-Lex replaced the tycoon Lex while he was President, and both have been engineering a comeback ever since. If that's the case, black kryptonite can't be the culprit, unless it was synthetically created (as in the TV show).


In all fairness, Lex knew that Superman's cousin was in the meteor and that her rocket, which was propelling the meteor, was homing in on Superman.

Lex was right on that one.

Also, DC has said that Black Kryptonite will only be tying into the Supergirl title. The mockingbird revelation isn't related to Black kryptonite.

[xnef1025]

Also, DC has said that Black Kryptonite will only be tying into the Supergirl title. The mockingbird revelation isn't related to Black kryptonite.

Of course, DC has been known to be giving false information out lately in order to throw the spoiler hounds off.

[PatrickG]

Yeah.

But among other things, it would seem that there have been two Lexes for awhile and Black Kryptonite was created by Captain Atom along with Yellow, Blue and Red when Cap destroyed the meteor.

[Chris Thomas]

my 2 cents:

1. battlesuit lex is totally in line with birthright lex--he had green eyes (except for one panel) and was basically a lunatic. and evil, genious lunatic.. but a luntatic none-the-less

2. I think the idea that society lex may be crime syndicate lex is intriguing. I can't remember what color he had in the earth-2 tbp. will have to check. but I suspect pariah is not dead (he 'can't be killed) and society lex knows that. I think he is just keeping pariah around so he knows where the action will be. also, he may be doing all these bad things in order to 'save the universe'. i.e. 'break a few eggs to make the omelet."

[mohammedali]

So... would that make Birthright an alternate universe? Or would that make the Man of Steel one an alternate? Are we going to see two Supermans (not the golden age or the Superboy prime either) in this?
IIRC, Birthright was confirmed as the new offical backstory for Superman. It was confirmed a while after the publishing which was kind of annoying, but it was confirmed eventually.

Mohammed Ali

[trickster]

I don't think the eye color is any indication as to which Luthor is which. In S/B the Lex who was president has green eyes (#2) but in VU #5 Calculator says to Society Lex (the blue eyed one) that "despite your recent background Lex, we're no diplomats", which makes it sound like he was the one in the White House. My head hurts. I'm really curious how they'll explain this one.
Seems to be duplicate time all over the place. In the January solicits (SG #5): With Supergirl on a rampage, there's no one left to stop her except…Supergirl?! The story that will have all of fandom talking explodes as The Girl of Steel takes on the Mistress of Might!

Maybe Lex Luthor uses the black kryptonite on her? Or it's just another time aberration brought by the crisis?

[LordEd1976]

I had to read and go back to everything...

I said it couldn't be another Luthor. Yet, re-reading COIE I noticed that when Brainiac sent for all the villains so they could band together and take control; there were 2 Luthors.

Yes, Two Luthors. The Earth-1 Green Battlesuit is appointed leader by Brainiac. And that does not ring cool to this other Luthor. He says something like: ' I am the Earth 2 Luthor and my intellect surpases this Earth-1 Luthor by far, I should be in charge, not him'.

Brainiac's reaction is to zap him with a similar kindo of ray like the one used to summon every other villain. He says this 'Luthor's services are no longer needed. Farewell...'

As the other villains stare in awe, everything is left open for this character to return. The right thing would be to think that Brainiac zapped him out of existence...but it is an open door. Definetely.

What do you guys think? I will bring scans and post them tomorrow.

I believe the quote goes "The choice for field leder is mine but you are correct. We do not need two Luthors. Farewell."

The blast looks more like a massive laser blast. The way Luthor-E2 looks when it hits seems to show that he was fried BIG TIME.

Whoever the alternate is, it aint him.

[Reggie Swats]

The way it looked to me, Society Luthor is the one we've had around for years, in one visage or another. Mockingbird was a newly revealed character, and looked more along the lines of a Golden Age version of Luthor (kinda reminded me of Hopper as Lex, which made me smile. That might just be me). Regardless, I view the Mockingbird Lex as being more in tune with the old-school, and the Society Lex is more like what he's come to be over the years. Society Lex mentions that he is the imposter, which probably has something to do with multiple Earths (duh), we'll have to wait and see what the spin will be on that. My 2 cents anyway.

[Paul Newell]

Maybe there is only one Luthor....With a split personality. His eyes could change colour depending on which "Luthor" is ascendant. ;)

[converge241]

I believe the quote goes "The choice for field leder is mine but you are correct. We do not need two Luthors. Farewell."

The blast looks more like a massive laser blast. The way Luthor-E2 looks when it hits seems to show that he was fried BIG TIME.

Whoever the alternate is, it aint him.

well not necessarily..for example:
supergirl looked fried to ashes in her Superman/Batman story but she was "teleported" to safety to fool Darkseid..they can write whatever they want to workaround those easy to make conclusions

[joint venture]

Here it is. So what's it gonna be, fried chicken or teleporting Luthor?
Maybe that ray is what left him bald (Earth-2 Luthor).

http://www.colectiva.org/luthor.jpg

[Calamas]

Maybe there is only one Luthor....With a split personality. His eyes could change colour depending on which "Luthor" is ascendant. ;)
With your avatar staring me in the face, I have to ask:

Which Paul Newell is running this board?

[Paul Newell]

With your avatar staring me in the face, I have to ask:

Which Paul Newell is running this board?
The Earth-Prime Paul! :D

[knight16]

Quite possibly the 2nd Luthor (Villians united) is the one who originally came from Earth-2 (Golden Age) and was supposedly killed in Crisis on Infinte Earths.

He must have replaced our Luthor (mockingbird) sometime before the Superman/Batman arc that saw Captain Atom shuttled to the Wildstorm Universe.

A lot of seemingly "dead" like Jason Tood (Hush) and Kara (S/B) have come back and this Luthor(VU) is one of them.Perhaps the switch was done during the Superman books Worlds at War crossover arc or when Metropolis was transformed by the Brainac virus

Funny how that the meteor in S/B arc which resulted in Captain Atom disappearing also brought Kara to earth.Another thread of Infinte Crisis?
Most likely, as the Good Captain like Blue Beetle was an integral part of the group organized by the original Harbringer that fought the Anti-Monitor.Funny too that Harbringer was killed (off panel) by Apokalips raiders in the Supergirl arc in Superman/Batman

The 2nd Luthor(VU) is an agent of the mastermind behind the coming Infinte Crisis sent to earth to make sure that the villians will not unite/align with the heroes as what happened in COIE.

[smoothjokes]

I think everyone has it backwards. I think Battlesuit Luthor is the Golden Age Luthor (The "Original" Luthor), he looks a lot older and resembles his more scientist type madman deal. I think the Society Luthor is the Post-Crisis Luthor.

[derekwc]

Did you even read Villians United?

[Typo Lad]

I still like the idea someone had that one Luthor is the Luthor from COIE #12 who Superman visits in Prison.

[Buried Alien]

I still like the idea someone had that one Luthor is the Luthor from COIE #12 who Superman visits in Prison.

That was the Silver/Bronze Age Earth-1 Luthor, and it was Batman (not Superman) who visited him in prison during COIE # 12.

And yes, the second Luthor is probably this Luthor...given that the Golden Age Earth-2 Luthor was unequivocally killed during COIE.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[PatrickG]

Wasn't it pretty much stated that the businessman Luthor is the alternate and that the Battle Armor guy is "our" Lex?

[derekwc]

That's why I was asking if anybody actually read the comic.

They made it pretty clear that Mockingbird was post-Crisis Lex
and that the Lex filling in for him was Pre-Crisis...

[bfrank]

That's why I was asking if anybody actually read the comic.

They made it pretty clear that Mockingbird was post-Crisis Lex
and that the Lex filling in for him was Pre-Crisis...

when did he say he was the pre crisis lex?

[mohammedali]

Wasn't it pretty much stated that the businessman Luthor is the alternate and that the Battle Armor guy is "our" Lex?
That's what I thought. Well, we know for sure that Battle suit Lex was the one that was president from S/B and that this other Lex is posing in his place, so it's fair to assume that battle suit Lex = original. Having said that, I hope the fake surpasses him. He's far cooler.

Mohammed Ali

[Guts/Batman]

when did he say he was the pre crisis lex?

Agreed.

We don't know where Society Luthor is from yet...

[Mulett]

It sounds like it could be quite a crucial part of IC. Is this something that has been going on for years, or just recently in the build-up to IC?

[Paul Newell]

In Villains United #6, it was revealed that there are two Luthors. The "Original" Luthor, who was President and wears the battle armour he donned in Superman/Batman #6. He leads the Secret Six.
The other is a member of the Society and admitted he's an alternate Luthor and he's "not from this world". As yet no-one knows who he is or where he's from.

[MrStytch]

All honesty, we don't know that Blue-Eye Luthor even IS a Luthor. He could be anything: Another villain in disguise (Maybe Nobody from Starman) an android double gone haywire, an earlier attempt at cloning him. There is one clear difference, though, and it hit me when Blue-Eye killed Pariah. Our (Armour) Lex generally doesn't go in for cold-blooded murder. He's lied, manipulated (tried to kill Superman pretty much every day for the last two decades or so) and attempted to wipe out the JLA dozens of times. The one thing he has never done is murder a helpless prisoner, as this would conflict with the fact that Armour Lex sees himself as a hero, trying to ensure humanity's future against an alien invader (Superman). Even his most grandiose schemes against Superman have, whether by design or some form of accident, given Superman a fighting chance. All I'm saying is that, whoever/whatever he is, Blue-Eyed Lex is happy to commit murder to get what he wants.

[Rich L]

All honesty, we don't know that Blue-Eye Luthor even IS a Luthor. He could be anything: Another villain in disguise (Maybe Nobody from Starman) an android double gone haywire, an earlier attempt at cloning him. There is one clear difference, though, and it hit me when Blue-Eye killed Pariah. Our (Armour) Lex generally doesn't go in for cold-blooded murder. He's lied, manipulated (tried to kill Superman pretty much every day for the last two decades or so) and attempted to wipe out the JLA dozens of times. The one thing he has never done is murder a helpless prisoner, as this would conflict with the fact that Armour Lex sees himself as a hero, trying to ensure humanity's future against an alien invader (Superman). Even his most grandiose schemes against Superman have, whether by design or some form of accident, given Superman a fighting chance. All I'm saying is that, whoever/whatever he is, Blue-Eyed Lex is happy to commit murder to get what he wants.

Pretty sure Lex - 'our' Lex - has murdered indiscriminately in the past; his real father (pre-Birthright) and one of his combat trainers during his beardy 'I'm my son' phase -and the fella who brought him pictures of the ship coming down by the Kent farm (although he may have been a Manchester Black induced illusion) all spring to mind.

My own theory is that the fake Lex - assuming he is a real Lex, and not a shapeshifter, robot or something else - is actually the Birthright Lex, and the change in Superman's origins there are actually part of the bigger plan...

[Mulett]

I always had the impression that the Earth/universe that we saw in issues 11 and 12 of CoIE was still going through changes as it tried to make sense of all the contradictions and anomalies left over from the merging of the inifinite earths.

So although Luthor is seen in prison at the end of CoIE by Superman, once the universe ironed out all the creases, Luthor was essentially put back to stage one again. So the Luthor we've seen since Man of Steel (way back in 1986) is, basically, the Earth-1 Luthor. So I don't think that will be the twist.

I do think it likely, however (taking into account the events in Infinite Crisis #1) that the second Luthor is from one of the old parallel Earths. It would seem a bit pointless to me to introduce the idea of two Luthors, at a time when DC is re-introducing the multiverse, and for the explanation to be connected with cloning rather than parallel Earths. He's definitely from Earth-2 or 3 or somewhere, I reckon, and has simply been in hiding all these years waiting for this new universe to start to 'crack'.

[knight16]

One plausible explanation is that The VU Luthor is a andriod just like Indigo was. In fact just like Red Hood, Supergirl and all the rest who have supposedly "come back from the dead" the past few months around the DC Universe. And knowing this leads to who the mastermind is and what would be the motive?

I'm guessing the mastermind behind Infinte Crisis and Luthor2 return is actually Brainac who is out to ensure that the future where the colluian race dominates the universe becomes a reality. Only Brainac would have the intellect,galatic connections (Rann/Thanagar War),technology (Omacs & Brother Eye), earth connections (Villians United ) to make this all happen.Further his science can understand and approximate magic as well.

[converge241]

lex didnt kill pariah..pariah cant die

[krammocon]

We all know that Clayface w/c posed as Batgirl and attacks Supergirl works for Battlesuit LEX.

And Psycho Pirate on JSA: Classified is in contact with Businesss suit LEX regarding Power girl.

Does the appearance of Clayface on the last issue of JSA: Classified means that both LEXES is after Power girl? and possibly Supergirl as well?

Can't wait for IC#2 to find out.

[trickster]

I don't think there are two Luthors anyway. It's just a coloring error, or a pencilling preference. I see the same Luthor anyway -one that is cool and collected during meetings, and the other that likes to go blitz when in confrontation mode.



*prefers subtle corporate Luthor anyway*

*Character limit dance*

[PatrickG]

It's been outright stated that there are two Lexes from two earths though.

Battlesuit Lex (aka OUR Lex) was looking for info on Society Lex (who admitted to being "from another world" in VILLAINS UNITED) in the latest ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN.

Turns out Society Lex is behind Ruin, not Battlesuit (aka ex-President) Lex.

[mohammedali]

I know it states there are 2 Lex's, but where does it say about them being from different Earths?

Mohammed Ali

[Arkham Resident]

Forgive my ignorance. I have no pre-crisis readings on this guy. Just read COIE and that's all i know of him. Now that his back in IC #1 maybe you guys can help enlighten the uninformed like me...

What is his strengths and power? How strong is he? are there pre-crisis
adventures he had that you can share?

He was very instrumental in beating the Anti-Monitor he must be a Biggie in the power meter... :confused:

[marshal99]

Since Alex Luthor only debuts in COIE and not seen again after that event , it's fair to say that i know as much as you seeing as you had read COIE.

[Buried Alien]

Yes. Until his recent reappearance in INFINITE CRISIS # 1, COIE contains the entire story of Alexander Luthor of Earth-3; he never appeared in any other DC stories.

As for his powers, they were never fully defined. We do know, however, that he is composed half of matter and half of antimatter. He is therefore capable of serving as a nexus between the positive matter universe and the antimatter universe of Qward. He can also function as an access point between the old parallel universes of the Multiverse and also between the current DCU and the paradise dimension into which he, Kal-L, Lois Lane of Earth-2, and Superboy of Earth-Prime disappeared at the end of COIE (although apparently, it was a one-way trip, because Kal-L and Co. didn't get out of the paradise dimension the same way they got in). That is the full extent to which we know about Alexander Luthor's powers.

Alex's powers can be exploited by others, apparently. Darkseid used him as a conduit through which to sucker punch the Anti-Monitor with the Omega Effect in COIE # 12.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Arkham Resident]

Yes. Until his recent reappearance in INFINITE CRISIS # 1, COIE contains the entire story of Alexander Luthor of Earth-3; he never appeared in any other DC stories.

As for his powers, they were never fully defined. We do know, however, that he is composed half of matter and half of antimatter. He is therefore capable of serving as a nexus between the positive matter universe and the antimatter universe of Qward. He can also function as an access point between the old parallel universes of the Multiverse and also between the current DCU and the paradise dimension into which he, Kal-L, Lois Lane of Earth-2, and Superboy of Earth-Prime disappeared at the end of COIE (although apparently, it was a one-way trip, because Kal-L and Co. didn't get out of the paradise dimension the same way they got in). That is the full extent to which we know about Alexander Luthor's powers.

Alex's powers can be exploited by others, apparently. Darkseid used him as a conduit through which to sucker punch the Anti-Monitor with the Omega Effect in COIE # 12.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Thanks Marshal99 and BA.

It's comforting to know that i'm not alone in my assessment on Alex Luthor.

With all this considered, i cant help but conclude that DC manufactured his character exactly for the purpose of using his assigned powers to serve the COIE storyline. Given that there are no other hero in the pre-Crisis crop who can do what he did. Kinda like R2D2 is Star Wars everytime there's a deadend for the main cast in the story, R2 would be there to solve the situation. At least R2 has his history explained in the Star Wars sequels.

Dont get me wrong. I dont hate Alex Luthor, i just think he's assigned powers were too overstated and his apperance in COIE gave him leadership/hero status overnight without any readers knowing exactly who is he.

If he's to be given the same treatment in IC#1 , at least DC must give the guy a spinoff title after the series. Alexander Luthor, Year One. hows that sound? :)

[mohammedali]

Don't keep your hopes up for and Alex Luthor Year One. DCU already has 2 Luthors running around, and putting a good one in there as well just doesn't look likely. Having said that, I think it would be cool. I loved reading "Lex Luthor: Man of Steel" and if there was another 'good Luthor' series, I would buy it.

Mohammed Ali

[matewan1990]

Yes. Until his recent reappearance in INFINITE CRISIS # 1, COIE contains the entire story of Alexander Luthor of Earth-3; he never appeared in any other DC stories.

As for his powers, they were never fully defined. We do know, however, that he is composed half of matter and half of antimatter. He is therefore capable of serving as a nexus between the positive matter universe and the antimatter universe of Qward. He can also function as an access point between the old parallel universes of the Multiverse and also between the current DCU and the paradise dimension into which he, Kal-L, Lois Lane of Earth-2, and Superboy of Earth-Prime disappeared at the end of COIE (although apparently, it was a one-way trip, because Kal-L and Co. didn't get out of the paradise dimension the same way they got in). That is the full extent to which we know about Alexander Luthor's powers.

Alex's powers can be exploited by others, apparently. Darkseid used him as a conduit through which to sucker punch the Anti-Monitor with the Omega Effect in COIE # 12.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Alexander Luthor's dad, Alexander Luthor Sr., first appeared in DC Comics Presents Annual 1 that featured the Earth 1 Superman teaming up with Earth 2 Superman to fight Earths 1 and 2 Luthors.

[RJComics]

Thanks Marshal99 and BA.



With all this considered, i cant help but conclude that DC manufactured his character exactly for the purpose of using his assigned powers to serve the COIE storyline. Given that there are no other hero in the pre-Crisis crop who can do what he did. Kinda like R2D2 is Star Wars everytime there's a deadend for the main cast in the story, R2 would be there to solve the situation. At least R2 has his history explained in the Star Wars sequels.

Dont get me wrong. I dont hate Alex Luthor, i just think he's assigned powers were too overstated and his apperance in COIE gave him leadership/hero status overnight without any readers knowing exactly who is he.

If he's to be given the same treatment in IC#1 , at least DC must give the guy a spinoff title after the series. Alexander Luthor, Year One. hows that sound? :)

How much more of a history do you want? He was a newborn child when COIE began and aged rapidly. We are not missing any information on him and if things appear to be mysterious, well, then that's the story that will be told.
As for his powers exisiting to serve the storyline, can't the same argument be made for just about any character? I really can't envision, for example, the Flash existing in an underwater environment a la Aquaman.
As for being a hero/leader, he had had the dimensional powers that no one else had, so why wouldn't the existing heroes look to him? Not everything is always going to spelled out completely.

[DDM]

Alexander Luthor knew how the reborn single universe would be reborn; that's why he chose to save the Earth-2 Lois Lane before time was rewritten.

[PatrickG]

Alexander Luthor's dad, Alexander Luthor Sr., first appeared in DC Comics Presents Annual 1 that featured the Earth 1 Superman teaming up with Earth 2 Superman to fight Earths 1 and 2 Luthors.

At the risk of creating some confusion here...

Alexander Luthor Sr. was the enemy of the Crime Syndicate.

I think you're refering to Alexei Luthor who was the Earth-2 Luthor.

(Luthor didn't have a first name until 1959 so they assigned Earth-2 Luthor a different first name.)

[PatrickG]

How much more of a history do you want? He was a newborn child when COIE began and aged rapidly. We are not missing any information on him and if things appear to be mysterious, well, then that's the story that will be told.
As for his powers exisiting to serve the storyline, can't the same argument be made for just about any character? I really can't envision, for example, the Flash existing in an underwater environment a la Aquaman.
As for being a hero/leader, he had had the dimensional powers that no one else had, so why wouldn't the existing heroes look to him? Not everything is always going to spelled out completely.

See... I always got the feeling that Pariah, Lady Quark, Harbinger, Monitor, Anti-Monitor and Alex Luthor were incredibly bizarre characters who felt more like Marvel characters than DC characters.

In particular, they seemed like stock Kirby character types as designed by Perez.

[Paradox]

Is PatrickG misinterpretting?:

At the risk of creating some confusion here...

Alexander Luthor Sr. was the enemy of the Crime Syndicate.

I think you're refering to Alexei Luthor who was the Earth-2 Luthor.

(Luthor didn't have a first name until 1959 so they assigned Earth-2 Luthor a different first name.)

No, Michael had it right.

The father of Alexander Luthor Jr. (currently appearing in IC) is Alexander Luthor Sr. of Earth 3 as you say. His first appearance was in DC Presents Annual #1, where he teamed up with the Earth 1 & 2 Supermen against the Earth 1 & 2 Luthors. Alexei was THERE, but it was Alexander's first appearance.

[Sharcque]

Like 7 or 8 months ago, I started a thread asking why Lex's eyes kept changing colors, and everyone was content to write it off as lack of attention to detail on the colorists' parts. I had no idea that I was actually on to something.

My question, since I don't read that many DC books......has it been revealed anywhere where the 2nd one came from? Clone? Earth 2? somewhere else?

[Buried Alien]

We'll probably find out later in INFINITE CRISIS. At present, it's a mystery.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Reggie Swats]

Did you even read Villians United?

Just to speculate, did you ever think that maybe Society Lex was referring to himself as the imposter because of the fact that he is a Post-crisis creation, and confronted with the knowledge of the multiverse and the return of Golden or Silver Age (battlesuit) Luthor, he was just admitting the truth. Pure speculation. I just can't really buy Battlesuit Luthor being the one we have had in comics for the past 20 years. He looks totally different, and everything about him just screams "old school" to me.

[hitokiri_]

as shown in countdown to infinite crisis. :D

[Guts/Batman]

I think it is just regular universe Luthor.

If they made him a being of magic, that would just add another level of absurdity to the story that doesn't need to be there.

[hitokiri_]

I think it is just regular universe Luthor.

If they made him a being of magic, that would just add another level of absurdity to the story that doesn't need to be there.

regular universe luthor is mockingbird.

[Guts/Batman]

regular universe luthor is mockingbird.

I left out a word.

I meant "Regular alternate universe Luthor".

[PatrickG]

There are two Luthors. We know that much.

They might be sharing a body. One might be a shapeshifter or an android.

But there are two guys. The businessman is "not from this world" and the native Luthor is in hiding... or was until he hijacked a plane and started running around Metropolis in his battle armor.

[hitokiri_]

I left out a word.

I meant "Regular alternate universe Luthor".


but where does ted kord's encounter with wizard shazam fit?

[Guts/Batman]

but where does ted kord's encounter with wizard shazam fit?

You mean when he saw Luthor when the beatle (sp?)?

There's a lot of Countdown that doesn't make sense to me. Nevermind characterizations...

But I don't think that had anything to do with Luthor.

[hitokiri_]

You mean when he saw Luthor when the beatle (sp?)?

There's a lot of Countdown that doesn't make sense to me. Nevermind characterizations...

But I don't think that had anything to do with Luthor.

this scene is coming out from my head so i will get the dialogues wrong.

shazam: captain marvel is off to fight the evils of magic.
*scarab poofs smoke*
bb: why is luthor involved with magic? he's a sick scum of a guy but he doesn't tangle with magic.
shazam: goodbye theodore kord.

[Guts/Batman]

this scene is coming out from my head so i will get the dialogues wrong.

shazam: captain marvel is off to fight the evils of magic.
*scarab poofs smoke*
bb: why is luthor involved with magic? he's a sick scum of a guy but he doesn't tangle with magic.
shazam: goodbye theodore kord.

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

*More Infinite Crisis induced headaches*

I don't think he is a being of magic. Hell, I don't know what to think right now.

Thinking about this makes my head hurt.

[mohammedali]

this scene is coming out from my head so i will get the dialogues wrong.

shazam: captain marvel is off to fight the evils of magic.
*scarab poofs smoke*
bb: why is luthor involved with magic? he's a sick scum of a guy but he doesn't tangle with magic.
shazam: goodbye theodore kord.
Where was that scene from? I don't remember reading that.

Mohammed Ali

[Gamma Charge]

Where was that scene from? I don't remember reading that.

Mohammed Ali

It happened in Countdown.

[titanfan]

Yeah, my guess it's just one of the Clayfaces....

[Guts/Batman]

Yeah, my guess it's just one of the Clayfaces....

Infinite Clayfaces!!!!

Or it's Deathstroke impersonating DC again...

[Sean Whitmore]

bb: why is luthor involved with magic? he's a sick scum of a guy but he doesn't tangle with magic.


No answers yet, but IC #2 does follow up on Luthor's interest in magic. :)


SEAN

[FanboyStranger]

I'm not sure what I make of the Society Luthor (except that either Black Adam or the Joker is going to flatten him), but I do suspect that the "real" Luthor is under the influence of someone else-- someone who knows what is really going down, and had been collecting data and making small steps to avert the coming catastrophe until it was obvious to him that he had no choice but to physically intervene. (Not going to say whose behavior that resembles...)

[PatrickG]

I'm not sure what I make of the Society Luthor (except that either Black Adam or the Joker is going to flatten him), but I do suspect that the "real" Luthor is under the influence of someone else-- someone who knows what is really going down, and had been collecting data and making small steps to avert the coming catastrophe until it was obvious to him that he had no choice but to physically intervene. (Not going to say whose behavior that resembles...)

Uh... Brainiac?

We've already had one Alan Moore nod so far.

Let's go for another!

Lexiac anybody?

[handOFfate]

In Superman/Batman #19 the Lex Luthor that Calculator was talking to was wearing the super-suit. I don't recall seeing society Lex wearing the suit at any point. Is it possible Calc is communicating with both Luthors?

[marshal99]

It took you this long to figure it out ?!

This topic has been discussed to death already , both luthors are using the calculator for info.

[PatrickG]

If you notice, Mockingbird insists on being called "Mr. X" by Calculator unless the line is secure.

[Sandy Hausler]

Could be a mistake on the part of the inker or there a lot of Luthor clones running around. Back in the nineties there was a Lex Luthor clone running around saying that he was Luthor's Australian son, but it turned out to be Luthor's brain in a cloned body. Maybe he made more than one clone.

But he only has one brain.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[Shellhead]

Alexander Luthor knew how the reborn single universe would be reborn; that's why he chose to save the Earth-2 Lois Lane before time was rewritten.

That, and maybe he was told that his own mother was also a Lois. We don't know for certain that her maiden name was Lane, but she definitely looked like Lois Lane when we saw her in Crisis On Infinite Earths #1 as she and Alexander Sr loaded little Alexander into that capsule.

[vonDread]

So which Luthor is which, exactly? I had assumed, because of Villains United, that "Mockingbird" was the Luthor from the current continuity, and the Luthor who gathered the Society was Earth-2's. But in recent Superman issues, the Earth-2 Luthor (the green and purple jumpsuit, battle armor, went-to-school-with-Clark-Kent Luthor) seems to be the one trying to take out the Society. I'm totally lost.

[Rik]

Mockingbird was "our" Luthor, the one who was President, and who now wears the armor.
Society Luthor was the impostor, who we now know is Alexander Luthor, from Earth-3, the son of the "good" Lex from a world where the JLA are evil (and call themselves the Crime Syndicate).

But I still think Alex has been "possessed" in some manner by Pre-Crisis Silver Age Lex Luthor...

[vonDread]

Mockingbird was "our" Luthor, the one who was President, and who now wears the armor.

Okay but, why is he reminiscing about his school days in Kansas? Wasn't that pre-Crisis, Silver Age continuity?

[DDM]

That, and maybe he was told that his own mother was also a Lois. We don't know for certain that her maiden name