Buffy/Angel Ongoing Discussion

[Arune Singh]

I figured I'd see if this worked.

I finished Angel S5 for the 6th time and I gotta say, I miss the show. I've also been watching S2-S3 of Buffy and wow... the show really was aces back then.

Did they ever explain why Spike called Angel his sire, even though Dru sired him? If it was explained in S2, I forget it.

The "Sword of Angelus" from "Becoming P1-2" is in the latest Previews and I ordered it. sure, it's $200, but it is one damn cool sword! All we need is Wes' collapsable sword and Angel's extending wrist stakes.

[tangentman]

Yeah, the writers retconned that slip-of-the-tongue by Season 5 of Angel by saying in-story that Dru sired Spike, but Angelus actually molded him into the vamp he eventually became.

[Arune Singh]

Yeah, the writers retconned that slip-of-the-tongue by Season 5 of Angel by saying in-story that Dru sired Spike, but Angelus actually molded him into the vamp he eventually became.

But didn't they question Angel in S2 about the sire thing? And he admitted to it?

[DMike]

Nope, the only person around when Spike mentioned it was Xander, and he wasn't in much of a position to care about that when Angel had just basically offered him up as a snack. I don't think either ever brought it up after that.

I've also heard that Joss said that the term "sire" applies to anyone in the direct bloodline, so Drusilla, Angel, Darla, and the Master are all sires technically.

[tangentman]

"Sire, grand-sire", it's all vamp semantics.

Also, Arune, Spike's flashback scene in "Fool for Love" clearly showed him being sired by Drusilla. She stated her intent to turn him into her undead lover and black knight.

[Grant]

Somewhere Greg Hatcher is screaming into a pillow.

[Deathstroke]

Grant,

Probably, but at least the discussion will most likely be done in one thread rather than multiple ones now.

Oh and great idea Arune.

I just finished watching Buffy Season 1 for the third time.

[SnowTrooper]

Yeah I really miss Angel that show was tight.now ima go watch season 5 now.

[Arune Singh]

Grant,

Probably, but at least the discussion will most likely be done in one thread rather than multiple ones now.

Oh and great idea Arune.

I just finished watching Buffy Season 1 for the third time.

Thanks man. Why would Greg mind???

I need to re-watch S2- I could swear the whole sire thing is addressed later. I know ANGEL and later seasons of BTVS retconned the whole thing, but I was just curious after watching the Best Buy "Spike" DVD that came out on Tuesday.

[Grant]

Thanks man. Why would Greg mind???

I was joking because a number of the Whedon related threads were filled with petty bickering. More then usual.

Personally I don't mind I like both shows.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I never really paid attention to BUFFY or ANGEL when they were on the air, but am just now getting into them. I've got all the BtVS seasons on DVD and have been watching them chronologically. Right now, I'm past the midpoint of Season 3 (just watched "Enemies" last night - I think that's the ep, where Angel pretends to be Angelus again to help Buffy get the scoop on what Faith and the Mayor are up to). The early part of the season dragged a bit, up to the point when Spike came back for one ep, but it picked up in a bit way after that.

Darn good show overall to this point. Good stuff.

[Deathstroke]

I never really paid attention to BUFFY or ANGEL when they were on the air, but am just now getting into them. I've got all the BtVS seasons on DVD and have been watching them chronologically. Right now, I'm past the midpoint of Season 3 (just watched "Enemies" last night - I think that's the ep, where Angel pretends to be Angelus again to help Buffy get the scoop on what Faith and the Mayor are up to). The early part of the season dragged a bit, up to the point when Spike came back for one ep, but it picked up in a bit way after that.

Darn good show overall to this point. Good stuff.


Holy Crap! This is great news, JWK, the Zen Master of Perviliciousness, has been made into a Buffy Convert!

Whoo Hoo!

[JeffreyWKramer]

Holy Crap! This is great news, JWK, the Zen Master of Perviliciousness, has been made into a Buffy Convert!

Whoo Hoo!

Even better, BUFFY has its share of pervilicious moments. Several of the Season 3 eps have even had BDSM jokes.

Really, from what little I saw back when it was first-run, I always figured I'd enjoy the show. I just hate hassling with TV schedules, whether to watch or to tape. I much prefer to watch shows on DVD.

Doing the same with FIREFLY, SIX FEET UNDER and DEADWOOD, will probably start on OZ and THE SOPRANOS then, and I'll definitely be watching ANGEL after I finish BUFFY.

[Patient Boy]

I'm watching Angel Season 5 right now. Is there any particular reason why he seems more... violent in this season, especially when it came down to killing humans, for example the seemingly non-superpowered Wolfram & Hart agents in the first episode?

[Grant]

I'm watching Angel Season 5 right now. Is there any particular reason why he seems more... violent in this season, especially when it came down to killing humans, for example the seemingly non-superpowered Wolfram & Hart agents in the first episode?

I pretty sure Angel was killing humans even after he got his soul. Darla mentioned he fed off of rapists and murderers.

[ElectraAlan]

I only started watching Buffy seriously in the fourth season, because that's when college started. High school was too traumatic for me. I didn't want to go back there.

But I'm watching seasons 1-3 now on DVD, and there's still things that are hard for me to watch. That show in the first season, with the kid who got beat up and put into a coma by his little league coach, was really hard to watch. And I'm not a fan of the gothic/horror spooky stuff, either, but I love the hip, funny dialogue. I love that they've got all these pop-culture references at their fingertips, like when Buffy said to Giles, "I cannot believe that you of all people are trying to Scully me."

Some of the quotes I would love to do if Greg Hatcher would let me:

I just saw the episode where the swim team members are turning into fish monsters, and Xander joins the swim team. Cordelia is worrying what it will do to her reputation, when her boyfriend turns into the creature from the blue lagoon.

Xander says, "Creature from the Black Lagoon. The creature from the Blue Lagoon would be Brooke Shields."

There's also quite a long quote, where Giles compares information from computers to information from books. Books have a smell, and computers have none, so information from computers seems to have no context to him.


You know, I'm frequently impressed by Xander. He doesn't have brains or brawn, but he has the guts, and no matter how many people tell him he's in over his head, he just keeps marching boldly into danger because he's worried about his friends. And he saved Buffy in the first season. Once you've saved the Slayer, you need never prove your worth to anyone, ever again.

Also, there was a wonderful piece of comedy by ASH ( Giles ) when Buffy's mom found out she did the nasty with Angel, and he suggested to Willow that he might say something to Buffy's mom, in Buffy's defense. Willow asks what he would say, and he does some of the funniest and most British stammering I've ever heard. And Willow just opens the door for him to leave.

Ever notice how Willow got cuter and cuter with every episode? How did she do that?

[DMike]

Also, there was a wonderful piece of comedy by ASH ( Giles ) when Buffy's mom found out she did the nasty with Angel, and he suggested to Willow that he might say something to Buffy's mom, in Buffy's defense. Willow asks what he would say, and he does some of the funniest and most British stammering I've ever heard. And Willow just opens the door for him to leave.

Which is an interesting balance to Buffy later finding out about Giles & Joyce, and he starts stammering all over again.

[Perry Holley]

I never really paid attention to BUFFY or ANGEL when they were on the air, but am just now getting into them. I've got all the BtVS seasons on DVD and have been watching them chronologically. Right now, I'm past the midpoint of Season 3 (just watched "Enemies" last night - I think that's the ep, where Angel pretends to be Angelus again to help Buffy get the scoop on what Faith and the Mayor are up to). The early part of the season dragged a bit, up to the point when Spike came back for one ep, but it picked up in a bit way after that.

Darn good show overall to this point. Good stuff.If anything, the latter half of Season 3 is better than the first half. The last four or so eps in particular are especially well done.

[Arune Singh]

I'm watching Angel Season 5 right now. Is there any particular reason why he seems more... violent in this season, especially when it came down to killing humans, for example the seemingly non-superpowered Wolfram & Hart agents in the first episode?

It's all basic frustration from previous seasons. Everything with Connor, Jasmine, Cordelia and such... they highlight it later when a certain someone returns to tell him that he's lost his way. Amazing, amazing season....

"So I was out helping the helpless, which is something I like to do..."

[Arune Singh]

I never really paid attention to BUFFY or ANGEL when they were on the air, but am just now getting into them. I've got all the BtVS seasons on DVD and have been watching them chronologically. Right now, I'm past the midpoint of Season 3 (just watched "Enemies" last night - I think that's the ep, where Angel pretends to be Angelus again to help Buffy get the scoop on what Faith and the Mayor are up to). The early part of the season dragged a bit, up to the point when Spike came back for one ep, but it picked up in a bit way after that.

Darn good show overall to this point. Good stuff.

Let me know what you think about ANGEL. I think it is probably the better of the two- with FIREFLY being the best whedon show- and there's something genuinely resonant about it all.

[Blueferret]

Okay, here another question that never made sense to me. There was an epsiode of Angel that showed Angel right before he met up with Buffy when he was in New York. He was basically living as a bum and feeding off of rats. This was always odd to me because every time they showed something about Angel's past he seemed healthy, i.e 1943, when he was living in the Hotel in the 50's, etc. Did they ever explain this or was it explained in that episode?

[DMike]

He didn't really like staying in one place for too long. In the Angel pilot, he mentioned living somewhere in the Midwest during the Great Depression and being involved in Vietnam (I'm assuming nighttime missions since the military already knew what he was).

[boondoggle]

Okay, here another question that never made sense to me. There was an epsiode of Angel that showed Angel right before he met up with Buffy when he was in New York. He was basically living as a bum and feeding off of rats. This was always odd to me because every time they showed something about Angel's past he seemed healthy, i.e 1943, when he was living in the Hotel in the 50's, etc. Did they ever explain this or was it explained in that episode?

In the 4th season episode Orpheus, they show several flashbacks (1902?, 1920's, 1970's, & 1990's) and in that episode it states that Angel generally tried to avoid humans, but after feeding off of a crime victim in the '70's he spent the next twenty or so years feeding off rats until Whistler showed up.

[Arune Singh]

Okay, here another question that never made sense to me. There was an epsiode of Angel that showed Angel right before he met up with Buffy when he was in New York. He was basically living as a bum and feeding off of rats. This was always odd to me because every time they showed something about Angel's past he seemed healthy, i.e 1943, when he was living in the Hotel in the 50's, etc. Did they ever explain this or was it explained in that episode?

He was a guy without passion or a reason to keep fighting, so I assume he just lost his way and ended up on the streets. Every so often he found a place to live, but I assume after the events of "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" with the demon in the hotel, he lost faith in himself.

I would've liked Riley to join the cast of Angel in S6. It would've been fun to see Spike, Angel and Riley all together.

[Grant]

He was a guy without passion or a reason to keep fighting, so I assume he just lost his way and ended up on the streets. Every so often he found a place to live, but I assume after the events of "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" with the demon in the hotel, he lost faith in himself.

I think it was in the 70s when he fed off the dead donut shop guy. But they keeping pushing homless Angel back further and further whenver we find out something interesting about him between the late 1800s and 1990s. I'm sure they would have changed it if there was another season and we got to see 1980s Angel rocking the mullet, white jacket, pink shirt Don Johnson look.

Which would be pretty awesome.

Why did they cancel this show again?

[Jamboon]

About the whole "sire" thing. I don't remember where it was explained but the term refers to any vampire in the line. The master sired Darla who sired Angel who sired Dru who sired Spike. So all four of those are Spike's sires.

[tangentman]

Let me know what you think about ANGEL. I think it is probably the better of the two- with FIREFLY being the best whedon show- and there's something genuinely resonant about it all.

I enjoyed ANGEL, but I personally thought that BUFFY held a better quality with more consistency. For example, I definitely found Buffy Seasons 5 & 6 way more entertaining and interesting than Angel's Seasons 1 & 2. I could barely maintain interest in AS2, with a few exceptions. The third season lost me somewhere in the middle, although the last half was certainly engaging. Now, was Angel's final season better than Buffy's? Definitely, but then again, ANGEL was prematurely cancelled (Buffy was winding up stories).

[Arune Singh]

I enjoyed ANGEL, but I personally thought that BUFFY held a better quality with more consistency. For example, I definitely found Buffy Seasons 5 & 6 way more entertaining and interesting than Angel's Seasons 1 & 2. I could barely maintain interest in AS2, with a few exceptions. The third season lost me somewhere in the middle, although the last half was certainly engaging. Now, was Angel's final season better than Buffy's? Definitely, but then again, ANGEL was prematurely cancelled (Buffy was winding up stories).

Really?

ANGEL S1 seemed confused till Wes joined and it took off. And except for the Pylea story, I thought S2 was a beautiful examination of Angel and then S3... wow. S4 started off ok but we know how it all went down. Then S5 topped BTVS in quality IMO. I just thought there was more resonance and clearer story arcs.

IE: Wesley's transformation was brilliant. Willow... they lost me with the "revelation" that she was gay. It didn't jibe with me. It never has. It seemed out of left field.

On that note, Lorne was meant to be gay or at least bi, right? I always got the impression he had a thing for Angel.

Any good Angel props out there? I have the Circle of The Black Thorn tat on my chest, the celtic Gryphon on my shoulder and I'm buying the sword of Angelus prop. Anything else?

[Blueferret]

Really?

ANGEL S1 seemed confused till Wes joined and it took off. And except for the Pylea story, I thought S2 was a beautiful examination of Angel and then S3... wow. S4 started off ok but we know how it all went down. Then S5 topped BTVS in quality IMO. I just thought there was more resonance and clearer story arcs.

IE: Wesley's transformation was brilliant. Willow... they lost me with the "revelation" that she was gay. It didn't jibe with me. It never has. It seemed out of left field.

On that note, Lorne was meant to be gay or at least bi, right? I always got the impression he had a thing for Angel.

Any good Angel props out there? I have the Circle of The Black Thorn tat on my chest, the celtic Gryphon on my shoulder and I'm buying the sword of Angelus prop. Anything else?

I like the Pylea adventure for one thing: Cordelia in the Red Sonja outfit!! :eek:

[Blueferret]

I always took Lorne to be gay as well. He came off as a Liberace type personality and always had a froo-froo drink in his hand. That being said, he was one bad mo-fo at the end.

[tangentman]

Arune, I appreciated Wesley's character growth, but I would hardly call Season 2 a "beautiful examination of Angel". Boring examination, sure. Which surprised me, because I thought there were elements which should have made the season more appealing to me--Darla's return & manipulation of Angel, the Lindsey moments, Drusilla's return, Holling explaining "Hell" to Angel. Except for a few standout moments, the season left me feeling "blah", and the trip to Pylea turned me OFF to Angel when the shows originally aired.

Season 3 had a good start, then seemed out-of-kilter, and I HATED the Connor plot device. Wesley stealing the baby and getting his throat slashed for a good deed was the high point, imo. So much hubris in that season.

Still, I've always been able to watch a Buffy episode a dozen times over. I really can't say the same about certain Angel seasons, no matter how much I appreciate the show. As to Willow's "left-field" change, the groundwork was laid with the appearances of Vamp Willow. I also never thought of myself as a Willow/Oz shipper, so I wasn't that heartbroken over Seth's depature from the series. OTOH, once I was able to catch up on Season 4, I found the relationship with Tara to be organic, tender, believable--beautiful. Tara's murder affected me as a viewer in ways that Seasons 1-3 weren't able to touch, not even the Jenny and Angel deaths in Season 2.


I suppose it comes down to preference. As much as I like ANGEL, I'm more a BUFFY fan at heart.

[Peter]

I was never really tempted revisit my love of Buffy and Angel.

After the season finales of both shows, that pretty much killed off my entire love for either show.

But I see a store selling the entire Buffy series DVDs cheaply, and I'm tempted to buy the second half of season 5. Only because of the Glory smashfest.

[Grant]

I should start to do my annual Buffython this year (where I watch every episode over the course of a few months). I'm kind of figuring how to organize the Angel in there too. I was thinking about doing one for Firefly before Serenity comes out too.

Cause I'm a nerd ;)

[Deathstroke]

I should start to do my annual Buffython this year (where I watch every episode over the course of a few months). I'm kind of figuring how to organize the Angel in there too. I was thinking about doing one for Firefly before Serenity comes out too.

Cause I'm a nerd ;)

I just keep watching Buffy over and over, no special event needed.

[Flight]

and I'll definitely be watching ANGEL after I finish BUFFY. I would actually recommend watching them simultaneously after you finish s3 as they tend to coincide with one another.

[marshal99]

Yep , some story arcs starts in Buffy and then ends in Angel or vice versa.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I would actually recommend watching them simultaneously after you finish s3 as they tend to coincide with one another.

I spent enough on the Buffy DVDs, I can't afford to fork out for ANGEL right now too, unless I find a great deal like I did on the BUFFY ones. I do watch closely for an ANGEL set at Half-Price Books, though.

[Deathstroke]

I spent enough on the Buffy DVDs, I can't afford to fork out for ANGEL right now too, unless I find a great deal like I did on the BUFFY ones.

I feel your pain. Ummm wait...that just doesn't sound right. :D

Yeah, I am waiting to get the Angel DVDS until I find a really good price.

[Arune Singh]

Arune, I appreciated Wesley's character growth, but I would hardly call Season 2 a "beautiful examination of Angel". Boring examination, sure. Which surprised me, because I thought there were elements which should have made the season more appealing to me--Darla's return & manipulation of Angel, the Lindsey moments, Drusilla's return, Holling explaining "Hell" to Angel. Except for a few standout moments, the season left me feeling "blah", and the trip to Pylea turned me OFF to Angel when the shows originally aired.

Season 3 had a good start, then seemed out-of-kilter, and I HATED the Connor plot device. Wesley stealing the baby and getting his throat slashed for a good deed was the high point, imo. So much hubris in that season.

Still, I've always been able to watch a Buffy episode a dozen times over. I really can't say the same about certain Angel seasons, no matter how much I appreciate the show. As to Willow's "left-field" change, the groundwork was laid with the appearances of Vamp Willow. I also never thought of myself as a Willow/Oz shipper, so I wasn't that heartbroken over Seth's depature from the series. OTOH, once I was able to catch up on Season 4, I found the relationship with Tara to be organic, tender, believable--beautiful. Tara's murder affected me as a viewer in ways that Seasons 1-3 weren't able to touch, not even the Jenny and Angel deaths in Season 2.


I suppose it comes down to preference. As much as I like ANGEL, I'm more a BUFFY fan at heart.


To each their own. The Vamp Willow thing did nothing for me, as I figured she was just an alternate version of Willow, so it had no bearing on who she was in "reality."

S2 of Angel worked for me because of how messed up Angel got- he fell so far for decent reasons but ultimately needed to find rock bottom before he could see everything the way he needed to. And yeah, I disliked the Pylea arc as well.

[Blueferret]

I spent enough on the Buffy DVDs, I can't afford to fork out for ANGEL right now too, unless I find a great deal like I did on the BUFFY ones. I do watch closely for an ANGEL set at Half-Price Books, though.


You might want to try pawn shops. I would have never thought about this, but I have a friend who goes to pawn shops for his E-Bay store and he picks up season sets all the time for Buffy, Angel, B5, DS9, etc. on the cheap. They're in the neighborhood of 15-25$ depending on the series.

[SnowTrooper]

The way I watch both shows is Buffy at 7 a.m. on FX the nAngel at 8 a.m. of TNT. I catch my daily dose before I even go to school.

[Gaz]

I spent enough on the Buffy DVDs, I can't afford to fork out for ANGEL right now too, unless I find a great deal like I did on the BUFFY ones. I do watch closely for an ANGEL set at Half-Price Books, though.
The only really important one is the Faith 4-parter in Buffy S4 and Angel S1 (first 2 eps on Buffy, last 2 on Angel, and a semi-epilogue on Buffy.)

[JeffreyWKramer]

You might want to try pawn shops. I would have never thought about this, but I have a friend who goes to pawn shops for his E-Bay store and he picks up season sets all the time for Buffy, Angel, B5, DS9, etc. on the cheap. They're in the neighborhood of 15-25$ depending on the series.


That's not a bad idea. I've been doing the same with Half-Price Books, but checking out pawn shops offers another option.

I'd love to find some good deals on the DS9 and ST:TNG DVDs.

[Gaz]

Speaking of that arc, who did the better job in the body-swap episode? I thought Eliza, but I've seen most people praise SMG. Am I just ignorant of her subtle performance or are they taking her lack of trying as under-acting?

[Gaz]

To each their own. The Vamp Willow thing did nothing for me, as I figured she was just an alternate version of Willow, so it had no bearing on who she was in "reality."

S2 of Angel worked for me because of how messed up Angel got- he fell so far for decent reasons but ultimately needed to find rock bottom before he could see everything the way he needed to. And yeah, I disliked the Pylea arc as well.
You forget, Dopplegangland (where her sexuality really came up with VampWIllow) was by Joss himself. He of the 2 year foreshadow of Dawn.

[Deathstroke]

That's not a bad idea. I've been doing the same with Half-Price Books, but checking out pawn shops offers another option.

I'd love to find some good deals on the DS9 and ST:TNG DVDs.

I'd love to find deals on DS9 as well. I've got 3 more seasons to get.

[Deathstroke]

You forget, Dopplegangland (where her sexuality really came up with VampWIllow) was by Joss himself. He of the 2 year foreshadow of Dawn.

Dopplegangland is one of my favorite Buffy episodes.

[Gaz]

I'd love to find deals on DS9 as well. I've got 3 more seasons to get.
I have the FIRST 3 to get, I picked up the great seasons cheap. :D

[Gaz]

Dopplegangland is one of my favorite Buffy episodes.
"Say, y'all didn't happen to do a whole buncha drugs, didja?" :D
And it took me SOOO long to realise who "Little Miss Muffet" was and what 730 referred to. :o

[Flight]

Speaking of that arc, who did the better job in the body-swap episode? I thought Eliza, but I've seen most people praise SMG. Am I just ignorant of her subtle performance or are they taking her lack of trying as under-acting? Sarah Michelle Geller.

Lack of trying? I think SMG acted EXACTLY like Faith which was what she was supposed to do. I don't think Eliza pushed her acting abilities like Sarah did in those eps.

[Gaz]

Sarah Michelle Geller.

Lack of trying? I think SMG acted EXACTLY like Faith which was what she was supposed to do. I don't think Eliza pushed her acting abilities like Sarah did in those eps.
Granted, she did have to play Faith pretending to be Buffy, which is harder. But (and maybe I'm just not observant, although I did pick up on the double-take in Orpheus) Eliza seemed to get the vocal mannerisms and movement down more.

[Arune Singh]

You forget, Dopplegangland (where her sexuality really came up with VampWIllow) was by Joss himself. He of the 2 year foreshadow of Dawn.

I didn't forget it. It just never resonated with me at all and the "growth" of Willow felt forced. This isn't to say there wasn't a master plan- maybe this was Whedon's plan all along. I just never bought it, nor did I ever buy Spike as a love interest for Buffy, though that actually made a lot of sense on Spike's part, as he seemed attracted from the beginning.

[Gaz]

I didn't forget it. It just never resonated with me at all and the "growth" of Willow felt forced. This isn't to say there wasn't a master plan- maybe this was Whedon's plan all along. I just never bought it, nor did I ever buy Spike as a love interest for Buffy, though that actually made a lot of sense on Spike's part, as he seemed attracted from the beginning.
Not ALL along, but he knew well in advance, he always did with major changes and he laid in the subtle clues. And I take Tara herself didn't work for you then, as she was "Willow's girlfriend" for most of her run? (Could have replaced Giles as the core of the group though, stupid Marti with her angst-fetish in S6)

[boondoggle]

The Willow/Tara relationship developed because Seth Green left the show in S4. Joss has said in interviews that the "Willow goes crazy after her loved one dies" story was pre-planned, but that it would've been Oz that died if Green had stayed. It would've happened in S5, but they pushed it back a year to allow the W/T relationship to develop.

[Arune Singh]

Not ALL along, but he knew well in advance, he always did with major changes and he laid in the subtle clues. And I take Tara herself didn't work for you then, as she was "Willow's girlfriend" for most of her run? (Could have replaced Giles as the core of the group though, stupid Marti with her angst-fetish in S6)

Honestly? The whole show fell apart for me with S4 and turned into something that didn't agree with me. I disliked most of the character development and new additions. I did buy S7 for the Angel appearance and while I liked the development of Spike, it's hard for me to see him as being loved by Buffy, in any small way. So it just wasn't my thing.

And Tara annoyed me because she felt so... whiny? to me. Still better than Kennedy.

[Deathstroke]

Boy Arune..we disagree so much about Buffy.

I loved the series right on through once I got into it.

And I LOVED the Willow/Tara , Dawn, and Spike/Buffy developments.

[Flight]

I missed the High School aspect of the show after s3 finished and I don't think they ever got anything to replace it that felt 'right' for the setting of the show.
The Magic Box worked but it was no library!!

[Arune Singh]

Boy Arune..we disagree so much about Buffy.

I loved the series right on through once I got into it.

And I LOVED the Willow/Tara , Dawn, and Spike/Buffy developments.

How does it feel to be so wrong about the show? ;)

Jokes aside, I did like Dawn a lot actually and I liked Spike falling for Buffy. It worked on a lot of levels. I even liked the idea of Buffy becoming self destructive and using Spike to punish herself. I liked Xander & Anya A LOT.

But I didn't like Xander walking out on the wedding. I hated that S7 felt like some over the top feminist message (Complete with "I have a magical axe plot device so those rules the boys made don't apply because we're grrrrrls") and got resolved in a way I felt unfulfilling. I didn't believe in Buffy having feelings for Spike. I can see how she might deal with the rape issue but I just never bought their chemistry.

Now Faith & Spike... that woulda worked.

[Deathstroke]

But I didn't like Xander walking out on the wedding.

Out of everything you posted, this is what I agree with. I hated that the wedding didn't go off.

[Arune Singh]

Out of everything you posted, this is what I agree with. I hated that the wedding didn't go off.

Well that's better than before, right? ;)

Come on, the magical axe didn't bother you at all?

On a positive note, ANGEL rules. That is all.

[Deathstroke]

Well that's better than before, right? ;)

Come on, the magical axe didn't bother you at all?

On a positive note, ANGEL rules. That is all.

Nope the axe didn't bother me at all, except sympathy pains when it cleaved Caleb from nads up.

[Gaz]

The Willow/Tara relationship developed because Seth Green left the show in S4. Joss has said in interviews that the "Willow goes crazy after her loved one dies" story was pre-planned, but that it would've been Oz that died if Green had stayed. It would've happened in S5, but they pushed it back a year to allow the W/T relationship to develop.
He's also said that the Tara thing was in the works too, but it would have been built up from the end of 4 onwards if Seth hadn't bailed, and been even MORE of a slow burn.

[Blueferret]

Honestly? The whole show fell apart for me with S4 and turned into something that didn't agree with me. I disliked most of the character development and new additions. I did buy S7 for the Angel appearance and while I liked the development of Spike, it's hard for me to see him as being loved by Buffy, in any small way. So it just wasn't my thing.

And Tara annoyed me because she felt so... whiny? to me. Still better than Kennedy.


Here's something that's been floating around in my head for a while and you just touched on it Arune. This'll tick off a whole bunch of people but I don't think the character of Buffy was capable of holding a show on her own. She was defined by those around her more often than not. The first three seasons, in my mind, are almost as much about Angel as they are Buffy. When Angel left there was a huge gap in the show and it showed because the first half of S4 is very hard to watch. I understand the theme of growing up and moving onto college stuff, but S4 if difficult and Adam/Riley & the Collective were not the best ideas. The dynamic between Giles/Spike, Xander/Spike, Anya/Xander and Willow/Oz/Dawn were all much more interesting to me than any of the Buffy stuff. Angel, on the other hand, is about Angel. Wesley, Cordy, Fred, and Gunn all grew as characters but the show always about Angel and the secondary characters never overshadowed the main one. The only one who came close was Wesley when he truly evolved as a character.

That's my 2 cents. Tear me up :eek:

[Jared]

Here's something that's been floating around in my head for a while and you just touched on it Arune. This'll tick off a whole bunch of people but I don't think the character of Buffy was capable of holding a show on her own. She was defined by those around her more often than not. The first three seasons, in my mind, are almost as much about Angel as they are Buffy. When Angel left there was a huge gap in the show and it showed because the first half of S4 is very hard to watch. I understand the theme of growing up and moving onto college stuff, but S4 if difficult and Adam/Riley & the Collective were not the best ideas. The dynamic between Giles/Spike, Xander/Spike, Anya/Xander and Willow/Oz/Dawn were all much more interesting to me than any of the Buffy stuff. Angel, on the other hand, is about Angel. Wesley, Cordy, Fred, and Gunn all grew as characters but the show always about Angel and the secondary characters never overshadowed the main one. The only one who came close was Wesley when he truly evolved as a character.

That's my 2 cents. Tear me up :eek:

Makes sense to me. I think it also helps that Angel kept the core group of characters smaller. Even though it got to the point that he was appearing in almost every episode, I never really thought of Lorne as a *main* character. When Spike joined in S5, Cordy was gone.

[Arune Singh]

Here's something that's been floating around in my head for a while and you just touched on it Arune. This'll tick off a whole bunch of people but I don't think the character of Buffy was capable of holding a show on her own. She was defined by those around her more often than not. The first three seasons, in my mind, are almost as much about Angel as they are Buffy. When Angel left there was a huge gap in the show and it showed because the first half of S4 is very hard to watch. I understand the theme of growing up and moving onto college stuff, but S4 if difficult and Adam/Riley & the Collective were not the best ideas. The dynamic between Giles/Spike, Xander/Spike, Anya/Xander and Willow/Oz/Dawn were all much more interesting to me than any of the Buffy stuff. Angel, on the other hand, is about Angel. Wesley, Cordy, Fred, and Gunn all grew as characters but the show always about Angel and the secondary characters never overshadowed the main one. The only one who came close was Wesley when he truly evolved as a character.

That's my 2 cents. Tear me up :eek:

I *loved* the idea of the Initiative and after hating Riley in S4, he became a badass in S5. Not Bat-Wesley levels, but still cool. Xander/Spike was hilarious.

I'm not trying to hate on Buffy- I love the 2nd & 3rd seasons- but ANGEL resonated with me more deeply. And hell... one can make a strong argument that the Angel on BUFFY was different from the Angel on ANGEL. The approach to the character and substance changed dramatically. That said, "I Will Remember you" was one of the best episodes ever in both series, due to Buffy/Angel doing their thang, yo.

[Blueferret]

I *loved* the idea of the Initiative and after hating Riley in S4, he became a badass in S5. Not Bat-Wesley levels, but still cool. Xander/Spike was hilarious.

I'm not trying to hate on Buffy- I love the 2nd & 3rd seasons- but ANGEL resonated with me more deeply. And hell... one can make a strong argument that the Angel on BUFFY was different from the Angel on ANGEL. The approach to the character and substance changed dramatically. That said, "I Will Remember you" was one of the best episodes ever in both series, due to Buffy/Angel doing their thang, yo.

Oops! I said Collective when I meant Initiative. Where the hell did I get the Collective?

[marshal99]

Oops! I said Collective when I meant Initiative. Where the hell did I get the Collective?
Seen too much of Star Trek Voyager perhaps ? ;)

Resistance is futile
We are the borg collective
You will be assimiliated

:D

[VCreed32]

2 year foreshadowing of Dawn??

[Magneto_X]

Although I was a huge Buffy fan, after the show hit its peak with Season 5 I didn't like it as much.

Angel, OTOH, was even *better* than Buffy.

[Arune Singh]

2 year foreshadowing of Dawn??

Yeah. They REALLY did a superb job of laying the seeds for it and I like how she developed as a character, especially the fact that she DID NOT have any powers after being the Key.

Also, wasn't Angel's curse pretty stupid in a sense? I get that giving him a soul, he'd be apprehensive about being happy because of the curse and therefore doom himself to a life of sadness, but the curse could be broken so easily... how come no one ever thought of that?

[tangentman]

I *loved* the idea of the Initiative and after hating Riley in S4, he became a badass in S5. Not Bat-Wesley levels, but still cool. Xander/Spike was hilarious.

I'm not trying to hate on Buffy- I love the 2nd & 3rd seasons- but ANGEL resonated with me more deeply. And hell... one can make a strong argument that the Angel on BUFFY was different from the Angel on ANGEL. The approach to the character and substance changed dramatically. That said, "I Will Remember you" was one of the best episodes ever in both series, due to Buffy/Angel doing their thang, yo.


Despite the connection of the shows, I don't know if one can truly compare them. The themes and tones of Buffy/Angel are very different and might even foil a comparison of value. Among other things, Buffy was about female empowerment, finding the quality which makes even the "geekiest" person special, and surviving the Hell known as "high school". Angel was pretty much about redemption and doing the right thing in a world of gray morals.

Buffy's world was often black-and-white, because the world seems that way to adolescents and young adults. OTOH, Angel's world was a gradual slope of slippery moral ambiguity. Evil in Buffy was a "Big Bad" bent on destroying the world; Evil in Angel was insidious and lived quietly among us.

I don't know if one is necessarily "better" than the other, because both shows work on so many levels. However, for wealth of ideas and emotional resonance--and yes, entertainment value--I prefer Buffy. This preference doesn't discount the worth of Angel, but I know that I can watch Buffy episodes repeatedly, whereas Angel reruns are generally saved for specific moods.

[Deathstroke]

Despite the connection of the shows, I don't know if one can truly compare them. The themes and tones of Buffy/Angel are very different and might even foil a comparison of value. Among other things, Buffy was about female empowerment, finding the quality which makes even the "geekiest" person special, and surviving the Hell known as "high school". Angel was pretty much about redemption and doing the right thing in a world of gray morals.

Buffy's world was often black-and-white, because the world seems that way to adolescents and young adults. OTOH, Angel's world was a gradual slope of slippery moral ambiguity. Evil in Buffy was a "Big Bad" bent on destroying the world; Evil in Angel was insidious and lived quietly among us.

I don't know if one is necessarily "better" than the other, because both shows work on so many levels. However, for wealth of ideas and emotional resonance--and yes, entertainment value--I prefer Buffy. This preference doesn't discount the worth of Angel, but I know that I can watch Buffy episodes repeatedly, whereas Angel reruns are generally saved for specific moods.

I quite like this analysis.

[Deathstroke]

Anyone have problems with their DVD discs suddenly starting to digitize and jump?

I was watching "Halloween" last night and about halfway through the episode and through half of "Lie To Me" it was digitizing.

I cleaned the DVD player to make sure it wasn't that, but it still did it, and I never had a problem with that for those episodes before.

[Arune Singh]

Despite the connection of the shows, I don't know if one can truly compare them. The themes and tones of Buffy/Angel are very different and might even foil a comparison of value. Among other things, Buffy was about female empowerment, finding the quality which makes even the "geekiest" person special, and surviving the Hell known as "high school". Angel was pretty much about redemption and doing the right thing in a world of gray morals.

Buffy's world was often black-and-white, because the world seems that way to adolescents and young adults. OTOH, Angel's world was a gradual slope of slippery moral ambiguity. Evil in Buffy was a "Big Bad" bent on destroying the world; Evil in Angel was insidious and lived quietly among us.

I don't know if one is necessarily "better" than the other, because both shows work on so many levels. However, for wealth of ideas and emotional resonance--and yes, entertainment value--I prefer Buffy. This preference doesn't discount the worth of Angel, but I know that I can watch Buffy episodes repeatedly, whereas Angel reruns are generally saved for specific moods.

Fair & balanced. :)

I agree with the themes in BUFFY and perhaps it was the presentation of it all that turned me off. I also liked how characters from that showe were portrayed in ANGEL- especially Angel himself, who even in "City Of..." seemed like a different character.

[boondoggle]

Also, wasn't Angel's curse pretty stupid in a sense? I get that giving him a soul, he'd be apprehensive about being happy because of the curse and therefore doom himself to a life of sadness, but the curse could be broken so easily... how come no one ever thought of that?

The only problem I saw with the curse was that the gypsies never told Angel about the "happiness clause". They apparently kept tabs on him through the decades and I can see them not telling him immediately (since one of the first things he did was try to get back with Darla & the gang which showed that he wanted things to go back to "normal" for him) but I don't see why, say in the '70's and '80's when he was living off rats, they couldn't have told him then. ("You think your life sucks now, well...")

If he knew about the clause before Buffy, the "I might turn into Angelus" refrain would have kept him worried enough that he might not have had a "moment of perfect happiness" with Buffy. It wasn't sleeping with Buffy that lost him his soul, it was that he felt perfectly happy with Buffy. The curse was meant to punish him. Without foreknowledge (i.e. Angel knowing about the clause), the curse really sounds stupid.

[Arune Singh]

Next topic:

Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4. Misunderstood seasons, victims of fanboy blindess or really crappy?

[Gaz]

2 year foreshadowing of Dawn??
"Oh yeah,miles to go, Little Miss Muffet counting down from 730"*
"Little sis coming"
"That clock's completely wrong"
"Be back before Dawn"


*730 days = 2 years, Dawn debuted 2 seasons/2 years in show time later.

[Gaz]

Next topic:

Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4. Misunderstood seasons, victims of fanboy blindess or really crappy?
Buffy S6 is the wealest, but not the spawn of Satan as many treat it.
Angel S4, very good, but only when you realise it's really S3,pt 2.

[DMike]

*730 days = 2 years, Dawn debuted 2 seasons/2 years in show time later.

Not to be nitpicky, but 730 was a foreshadowing of Buffy's death rather than Dawn's arrival.

[Gaz]

Not to be nitpicky, but 730 was a foreshadowing of Buffy's death rather than Dawn's arrival.
I took it as both, really. But you're probably more correct. Technically... :p

[Deathstroke]

Next topic:

Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4. Misunderstood seasons, victims of fanboy blindess or really crappy?


Buffy Season 6 is definitely a misunderstood season, with a dash of fanboy blindness thrown in.

It's a great season and all the talk that it's crappy is just flat out wrong.

[tangentman]

Buffy Season 6 really can't be considered the weakest season of the series. That particular honor goes to Season 7. I'm voting "fanboy blindness" because most of the Buffy hate I've seen seems to be related to Season 6. The writers were reviving the story after the spectacular "Gift" finale--they needed a hook for resurrecting Buffy that would carry emotional impact and move the story. Willow was plotted for an intense meltdown related to magick, so that worked into bringing Buffy back to the story.

The Season 6 cast were at so many different turning points--Buffy revived and uncertain of her direction in "life-after-death"; Willow was infatuated with her increased power, while at the same time ridiculously pressured by a leadership role and relationship issues with Tara; Giles was ready to move on from Sunnydale and release the Scoobies into adulthood; Xander was becoming more mature as a skilled tradesman and fiance to Anya; Dawn was groundless without a stable family; Spike was on the fence about the Scooby Gang and moving to the next level with Buffy; Anya seemed desperate to validate her still-new humanity by marrying Xander and being a businesswoman; Tara was slowly becoming the grounded center of the group, while at the same time struggling with the out-of-control relationship with Willow (due to Willow's abuse of mystic power).

Season 6 touched on all the angst of early adulthood and the struggle to just Grow The Hell Up. Story themes and moods probably hit on all the "ickiness" that came with the more confusing side of being in one's early 20's. No doubt, that caused extreme discomfort for the viewers. No true Buffy fan wanted an entire season of discontented and melancholy fan-favorites.

Another rationale for the backlash that occurred to me with Season 6 was the execution and resolution of three major sub-plots: Buffy/Spike, Willow's descent into her dark side, and Anya/Xander. Tensions between B/S had brewed beautifully in Season 5, with Spike's unrequited passion for Buffy (who felt disgusted over it all). They shared a moment of mutual respect in "The Gift" and fought for the same cause. There was no reasonable way that the two could have gone back to the rancor of Seasons 4 & early 5.

Although not a REAL or healthy romance, the exchange relationship sex seemed like a natural step for the two. Of course, many fans saw it as fanfic badness made manifest in the series. Also, there were others who felt betrayed by building up Spike as a near-hero, only to be rudely reminded of his monstrousness in "As You Were" and "Seeing Red".

Willow's storyline was DEFINITELY blundered after Tabula Rasa, when the writers wussed out and blamed her self-centered use of magick on "magick addiction". I'm with fans on that one, I HATED that cop-out :mad: Still, we had solid performances from Alyson and Amber, a painful resolution with Dark Willow. However, the "Power Corrupts" theme would have worked more believably and powerfully without falling back on a "disease model" for Willow's downfall. Thank You, Joss, for retconning that out in Season 7 :)

Need I touch on what would piss off fans about Anya/Xander? I hated Xander's decision, too, but not enough to hate the overall season. Personally, I thought that many good character studies came out of Season 6; I liked the "bait-and-switch" of the Big Bads--Nerd Trio/Dark Willow/Life; plus, we got the sublime "Once More With Feeling". I appreciated what the writers were doing with the theme of the season, as I know I felt just as unfocused and shaky at that age. It's not the funniest or most pleasant Buffy season, but I think that there was a great deal of emotional power in Season 6.

(I'll save comments on Angel Season 4 for another post)

[leg end]

Next topic:

Buffy Season 6 and Angel Season 4. Misunderstood seasons, victims of fanboy blindess or really crappy?

Not really crappy, but not as good as they could have been.

Buffy Season 6: Some fantastic moments, particularly the musical and the Spike/Buffy relationship, plus Giles' great return against evil Willow.
However there was far too much that let it down. The drugs/magic addiction connection was too obvious and not at all subtle, the villians were generally poor (although we got Andrew back in season 7 and he was great so will forgive slightly), the comedy was less witty than usual and some episodes just felt too cliched- the Meat Palace ep was my least fave Buffy ep of all time. Whilst 'fun' episodes like the meat palace ep can work well, this one lost me on all counts- take the jacket ep from season 7- witty, character interactions that worked well and the final solution (nicking the jacket) all complemented each other. Add this to the fact that season 5 was, IMO, an overal success, you are left feeling dissatisfied with 6.

Angel season 4: Disappointing for two reasons- season 3 was excellent in its storytelling and the whole Cordilia/Connor/that woman from Firefly thing fell apart. Was good until the beast died but lost its way.

[Nate Grey]

If I had to rank the seasons of Angel, it would be in reverse order of when they were released: Season 5 would be #1, season 1 would be #5. So that means Season 4 would be #2. :eek: Yeah, I didn't dislike season 4 at all (though the Connor/Cordelia thing was icky). The thing I liked about season 4 is that while, obviously, each episode tied together, in their own way each ep in that season was also a stand alone mini-movie. Especially the surprisingly effective "Shiny Happy People." I loved Wes's character arc, Angelus's return, Willow vs Cordelia, Faith...its like they tried SO HARD with that season and it showed, at least to me. I even liked how they handled Gunn and Fred's breakup: even though I wish they had stayed together, the breakup was very well played out by the actors and actress involved and made sense.

Cordelia: I figured the whole master plan with her was to make her have a demon-esque body to house Jasmine's essense so Jasmine could be born on this plane. This plan began all the way back with Doyle, when he transferred his powers to her via a kiss. Not having any demon in her it was really painful when she got visions, so she got Kip (unknown to her at the time a minion of Jasmine) to make her half demon, unknowlingly following a master plan. She eventually "ascended", and when she ascended, we didn't really see her again till the 100th ep of season 5. :eek: Meaning, she ascended leaving her body behind. Jasmine possessed her soulless body, similar to the nature of vampires in the Buffyverse, only she wasn't a vampire. Soul's gone, but the brain is still there and that's why she "acted" like Cordy when necessary. And when Jasmine was born, the essence left Cordy and went into the "baby", that's why Cordy went into a coma, not cause anything was wrong with her but because there was no longer a "pilot" for that body.

Least that's how I took the whole thing. So, in short, that's why the whole Connor and Cordy thing, while, again, icky, didn't bother me much in the end cause I figured it wasn't really Cordy, just Jasmine trying to get pregnant with...herself.

Buffy: I'd rank them 1-7, 2-5, 3-6, 4-3, 5-2, 6-1, 7-4. So yeah, I'm in the minority thinking season 7 was the best, but maybe not so much in thinking season 4 was the worse. I put season 6 pretty high cause I thought it did a lot of interesting stories, but I couldn't shake the vibe that the writers had a "dang, what do we do now?" approach to it as a whole. It still worked in the end, though, in spit of itself.

Season 4 seemed like one great big shrug to me. It had the same vibe I ascribed to season 6, only in a different way: with Angel gone, I felt they struggled to "replace" him, or rather take up the slack for his absence, and I think this sort of self-consciousness really hurt that season. I mean, really, while the Initiative sounds good in theory, their only reason to exist was to shoehorn Riley in as the new love interest. It never dawned on them to maybe leave Buffy SINGLE for a season or two? Let her define herself as a young woman and a slayer, and not as someone who needs someone else to define her? I mean it really got on my nerves cause while they were self conscious about the vacuum Angel may have created by moving on to his own show, *I* was conscious about them trying too hard and failing to make up for this. The only good that came out of season 4, imo, was putting Spike in the right direction toward his long road of redemption. Eh, maybe redemption isn't the right word, but the way Spike ended up in Angel Season 5 was set in motion by the events of Buffy Season 4.

I hope I made sense here...Buffy and Angel are a lot deeper than people (well, non-fans) give them credit for, even during the crappy seasons, so there's much to say about them.

[slayer2005]

Not to be nitpicky, but 730 was a foreshadowing of Buffy's death rather than Dawn's arrival.

Interesting trivia: Michelle Tratchenberg arrived on the Buffy set 7:30 a.m./p.m. while they were filming "Graduation Day Pt. 2" to visit SMG. That's were I think Joss got the idea of Buffy dead in season 5 and that SMG later on recommended Michelle to Joss to play Dawn.

Feel free to clarify if I made a mistake.

[Arune Singh]

I liked Angel S4 for the most part except there never seemed to be a pay off to the Angel/Cordy stuff. Yeah, it came in S5, but I felt cheated in S4. And Connor was a frustrating character. He seemed to just act stupid and angsty for the sake of it sometimes- his character took on the antagonistic role not because it was condusive to the character, but because it seemed like the plot needed him to do so.

That said, Angelus in S4 blew me away.

[Indigo Al]

It seems to me both series's creator/writers has some immense problems with the biological father figure.

Deadbeat Mr. Summers was never there, and even though Giles was the "father figure", you never ever saw any father in the Harris or Rosenberg households.

In Angel all those relationships were very difficult as well. I wonder if the Connor/Angel dynamic was a way to work through all that?

[Deathstroke]

It seems to me both series's creator/writers has some immense problems with the biological father figure.

Deadbeat Mr. Summers was never there, and even though Giles was the "father figure", you never ever saw any father in the Harris or Rosenberg households.

In Angel all those relationships were very difficult as well. I wonder if the Connor/Angel dynamic was a way to work through all that?

You did see Xander's father in the wedding episode, he's a drunken sot, so no big loss there.

[Indigo Al]

You did see Xander's father in the wedding episode, he's a drunken sot, so no big loss there.

My point is, the biological father on that series is almost always next to worthless.

[ElectraAlan]

I'm catching up on Buffy Season 3 on DVD right now. I loved this little exchange between Faith and one of the Mayor's henchmen:

"You killed him!"
"What are you, the narrator?"

[Headhunter]

Has anyone ever seen Buffy in widescreen? Apparently the European DVD's are all in a widescreen ratio, while the North American ones are fullscreen.

I have Season 1-4 and 6, but have never opened them from the original seal/packaging; is it worthwhile to resell these and order the Region 2 ones?

Also, they seem to have different extras...for example, the Season 1 set over there has Hepburn's I Quit video. Not a huge thing, but I liked it.

It seems to me both series's creator/writers has some immense problems with the biological father figure.

Deadbeat Mr. Summers was never there, and even though Giles was the "father figure", you never ever saw any father in the Harris or Rosenberg households.
Faith's pseudo-dad in the Mayor was a villain, and Angel's dad also smacked him around.

[Arune Singh]

Uh... I got nothing.

Just wanted to bump up this thread for the masses.

[Nate Grey]

Ooo, they generally frown on bumping...but anyway, I didn't know about Buffy only being in Wide Screen for region 2...I don't have a region free DVD player nor know how to get about one, but seems like it would be worth finding to buy the region 2 DVD sets. I LOOOVE widescreen. Isn't all of Angel season 5 in widescreen?

[Arune Singh]

Ooo, they generally frown on bumping...but anyway, I didn't know about Buffy only being in Wide Screen for region 2...I don't have a region free DVD player nor know how to get about one, but seems like it would be worth finding to buy the region 2 DVD sets. I LOOOVE widescreen. Isn't all of Angel season 5 in widescreen?

Yeah, S5 is all widescreen and even though they had less money than previous seasons, I thought it was the best looking season of them all.

[Deathstroke]

I'm in the middle of watching S2 for the third time, and I was watching Innocence.

Great episode. I love this exchange:

OZ: "So, do you guys steal weapons from the Army often?"
WILLOW: "Well, we don't have cable."

and then there's:

CORDELIA: "Does looking at guns make you think about sex."
XANDER: "I'm 17, looking at linoleum makes me think about sex."

Oh and:

THE JUDGE: "What's that do?"

[Deathstroke]

Freddie Prinze says Sarah Michelle Gellar won't do more Buffy.

Article Link! (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire2005/index.php?category=0&id=31830)

[PrimalScream]

who thinks angel survived the apocalypse?

[SnowTrooper]

Of course Angel survived the Apocolypse.Hes the hero, the hero always survives.

[Tobias March]

Of course Angel survived the Apocolypse.Hes the hero, the hero always survives.

Somewhere in LA....there's a dragon's head mounted upon a vampire's fireplace ;)

[Sean Walsh]

Somewhere in LA....there's a dragon's head mounted upon a vampire's fireplace ;)

Or the front lobby of the hotel. :)

[Ryan K]

Freddie Prinze says Sarah Michelle Gellar won't do more Buffy.

Article Link! (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire2005/index.php?category=0&id=31830)

Freddie Prinze is a tool. I remember during the sixth or seventh season he said he didn't want her doing Buffy anymore because she was better than TV. Pissed me off to no end.

[Gaz]

Of course Angel survived the Apocolypse.Hes the hero, the hero always survives.
In fact, if you're reading the mini-series, we KNOW he did, as he mentions the devestation the Wolf, Ram and Hart caused.

[PerfectBrak]

Freddie Prinze is a tool. I remember during the sixth or seventh season he said he didn't want her doing Buffy anymore because she was better than TV. Pissed me off to no end.

And in the fall, he has his own sitcom. Maybe he meant to say Sarah was too good for him.

[Deathstroke]

Freddie Prinze is a tool. I remember during the sixth or seventh season he said he didn't want her doing Buffy anymore because she was better than TV. Pissed me off to no end.


There's been precious little I've ever seen him in that I liked so I really don't care what he thinks.

[SnowTrooper]

Somewhere in LA....there's a dragon's head mounted upon a vampire's fireplace ;)


Couldnt have said it any better myself.

[Headhunter]

Since gratuitous bumping is in the air, I'm compelled to ask again:

Has anyone ever seen Buffy in widescreen? Apparently the European DVD's are all in a widescreen ratio, while the North American ones are fullscreen.

I have Season 1-4 and 6, but have never opened them from the original seal/packaging; is it worthwhile to resell these and order the Region 2 ones?

Also, they seem to have different extras...for example, the Season 1 set over there has Hepburn's I Quit video. Not a huge thing, but I liked it.
I haven't seen an episode since the series finale, and am dying to watch it again...but want to "do it right". Come on, someone must have seen it in widescreen and has an opinion to share! :)

[Ryan K]

I seem to recall Whedon once saying that the show was shot in fullscreen and that is why the DVD's are in fullscreen (with the exception of Once More With Feeling). Fullscreen is Whedon's preferred format for the Buffy episodes so that's good enough for me.

[Gaz]

I seem to recall Whedon once saying that the show was shot in fullscreen and that is why the DVD's are in fullscreen (with the exception of Once More With Feeling). Fullscreen is Whedon's preferred format for the Buffy episodes so that's good enough for me.
Yep, Firefly was the only time he shot widescreen, and that still got shown fullscreen on Fox. He tried to compromise in shooting style for that though. All the important stuff fit a full ratio, but there was scale in the wide format.

[Nate Grey]

I seem to recall Whedon once saying that the show was shot in fullscreen and that is why the DVD's are in fullscreen (with the exception of Once More With Feeling).

But the region 2 DVDs are all widescreen. Are they cropped to make it appear widescreen?

[DMike]

Yep, Firefly was the only time he shot widescreen, and that still got shown fullscreen on Fox.

The last 3 seasons of Angel were also shot and shown in widescreen (in order to differentiate it from Buffy after that show left the WB) in their original airings. They didn't become widescreen until TNT started airing the repeats.

[boondoggle]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I believe that seasons 1-7 of Buffy (i.e. all of them) and Angel seasons 1 & 2 were shot in fullscreen, while Angel seasons 3-5 and Firefly season 1 were shot in widescreen.

I haven't seen the Region 2 sets of Buffy, so I don't know if their "widescreen" Buffy is cropped/compressed or something else entirely.

[Headhunter]

Hmm, would need screenshots to compare...

[Nate Grey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/news/buffy/2003/04/28/4092.shtml

Says the UK versions are widescreen cause international broadcasters got the masters. But for Buffy just the UK versions of season 4 on up. Conversely, Angel in the states became widescreen for seasons 3 on up, but the UK began with season 2.

[Nate Grey]

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=10964

A review of the region 2 Buffy Season 7 DVD set.

[Headhunter]

Thanks for the links, this caught my eye:

The end result is that the widescreen ratio rarely causes any problems, and under most circumstances actually looks better, at least in my opinion.
From the provided screenshots, I'm not seeing any problems; the sides are clearly lacking in important activity because it was filmed for FS broadcast, but it certainly doesn't take anything away.

Now I got Season 1-4/6 sitting in brand new condition for nearly 2 years...gotta find some buyers. Oh, and I'd need to buy an all-region player before picking up any imports. :eek:

[Nate Grey]

From what I could gather, it was filmed in open matte, so the masters are availed to be cropped for full or wide. He just chose to crop them for American audiences.

[Nate Grey]

Oh, and I'd need to buy an all-region player before picking up any imports. :eek:

I have no idea how to get one either. Isn't there some sort of voltage issue?

[Deathstroke]

I've been watching Season 3 and starting S4 again.

Here's a couple of things I have comments about.

In Graduation Day Part 1, I think Buffy had one of her best moments when she told Wesley to go take a flying leap when he told her the Watcher's Council wouldn't help cure Angel.

In season 4, The Harsh Light Of Day when Buffy takes the Gem of Amara and sends it to Angel, did they ever show the result of that? If it was on Angel, I don't have any of the DVDS, what was the result.

[Gaz]

I've been watching Season 3 and starting S4 again.

Here's a couple of things I have comments about.

In Graduation Day Part 1, I think Buffy had one of her best moments when she told Wesley to go take a flying leap when he told her the Watcher's Council wouldn't help cure Angel.

In season 4, The Harsh Light Of Day when Buffy takes the Gem of Amara and sends it to Angel, did they ever show the result of that? If it was on Angel, I don't have any of the DVDS, what was the result.
That was the first crossover and is a great episode with Spike doing his own dialogue for a scene between Angel and a rescued damsel.
Long story short, Spike gets his ass kicked by Angel, Cordy, Oz and Doyle, Angel gets the ring and smashes it as it "too easy" a road to redemption.

[Deathstroke]

That was the first crossover and is a great episode with Spike doing his own dialogue for a scene between Angel and a rescued damsel.
Long story short, Spike gets his ass kicked by Angel, Cordy, Oz and Doyle, Angel gets the ring and smashes it as it "too easy" a road to redemption.

Ahhhh okay thanks for the update.

[Headhunter]

From what I could gather, it was filmed in open matte, so the masters are availed to be cropped for full or wide. He just chose to crop them for American audiences.
Bah, bad choice.

I have no idea how to get one either. Isn't there some sort of voltage issue?
Getting a power converter is relatively cheap; once the AC is converted, it's still the same DC current either way. Unless I'm missing something...

Angel gets the ring and smashes it as it "too easy" a road to redemption.
Actually, I recall he smashed it because he became worthless as a crime fighter. After losing his vampiric skills, he could no longer help Buffy and his other friends in the war against evil.

[Patient Boy]

Actually, I recall he smashed it because he became worthless as a crime fighter. After losing his vampiric skills, he could no longer help Buffy and his other friends in the war against evil.

Nope, Gaz is right. He didn't lose any of his vampire powers as a result of the ring, IIRC. He just became virtually unkillable since he was no longer susceptible to sunlight, stakes, etc. I remember the scene where he smashed it was him and Doyle sitting on the roof and talking about it while watching the sun set.

[Deathstroke]

I loved Spike's outlook on dealing with the Indian spirit in the "Pangs" episode.

"Oh someone put a stake in me.
I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
You won allright?
You came in and you killed them and took their land.
That's what conquering nations do.
It's what Caesar did and he's not going around saying "I came, I conquered,I feel really bad about it."
The history of the world is not people making friends.
You had better weapons and you massacred them.
End of story.
Listen to you! How're you going to fight anyone with that attitude?
You exterminated his race!
What could you possibly say that would make him feel better?
It's kill or be killed here.
Take your bloody pick"

Ahh the philosophical Spike....

I also watched Hush last night. The introduction of Tara. You'd never think from her rather milquetoast first appearance that she'd become so very important. Willow's lover, Dawn's substitute mom....

Whatever happened to Giles' girlfriend Olivia? I can't be sure but I think this is the last we saw of her.

The funniest thing was when Giles was giving the presentation on the overhead projector. When the drawing of Buffy going out to patrol was put on, I loved that with all that was going on, Buffy was mostly horrified by the hips on the drawing of her.

[GremlinClr]

Whatever happened to Giles' girlfriend Olivia? I can't be sure but I think this is the last we saw of her.


Giles had told her the truth, that vampires and demons exist but she never believed him until the events in Hush. She couldn't take that lifestyle of always being in danger and fighting the big bad so she left.

[Deathstroke]

Giles had told her the truth, that vampires and demons exist but she never believed him until the events in Hush. She couldn't take that lifestyle of always being in danger and fighting the big bad so she left.

Was that ever acknowledged or is it just something that was an offscreen thing?

[metalhead_dave743]

I have a question about the whole "Master Vampire" thing. Is there only one Master or is a Master just a vampire that has lived for so long he has shed human features and got demonic looking? And do all Masters look different?

[leg end]

Actually, I recall he smashed it because he became worthless as a crime fighter. After losing his vampiric skills, he could no longer help Buffy and his other friends in the war against evil.


I think you're confusing the ring scenario with the time Angel became human.
He did smash the ring due to it being too easy and he felt he hadn't earned it.
In a different episode of Angel, also season 1 I think, he became human due to the blood of a demon. He and Buffy spent a day together and he was happy, however when Buffy and Angel fought the demon again, he was useless and in the way, getting his butt kicked. So he contacted the Powers and they reversed time- nobody else remembers his sacrifice.

[leg end]

I have a question about the whole "Master Vampire" thing. Is there only one Master or is a Master just a vampire that has lived for so long he has shed human features and got demonic looking? And do all Masters look different?

The character of The Master, as far as I know, was just an old vampire with a large following who used the title 'The Master'. Other vampires in Buffy that are old have also been shown to have more demonic looks. The looks have chained though: one vampire had hooves instead of hands I think, plus the developement of Buffy and Angel have had different interpretations of pure vampires- Buffy in season 7 and Angel on Pylea.

[metalhead_dave743]

The character of The Master, as far as I know, was just an old vampire with a large following who used the title 'The Master'. Other vampires in Buffy that are old have also been shown to have more demonic looks. The looks have chained though: one vampire had hooves instead of hands I think, plus the developement of Buffy and Angel have had different interpretations of pure vampires- Buffy in season 7 and Angel on Pylea.


But I remember that Motivational Speaker episode where the head vamp said that they can all become master class vampires through their club or something. I'm sure it was bullshit made to get the vamps to join but it got their spirits up.

[Joe no Sleep]

I've heard the rumor that a SPIKE movie will most likely head straight for dvd, since the WB network is all smiles but nothing forthcoming. Also, Whedon has said that the movie is not necessarily something he would do, but hand over to someone he (and James Marsters) could trust to do a good job of it.

Also from Whedonesque.com...
Any T.V. spinoffs: Whedon's thinking of either Willow or Faith right now.

Just have Amy Acker in the supporting cast of either show, that's my opinion. :D

[Ryan K]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Limited Edition Complete Series Box Set (http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=3825)

Whoa, these past few weeks have brought some news about big box sets, but this one takes the cake. Fox has announced plans to release the complete run of Buffy the Vampire Slayer in a 40 disc limited-edition box set releasing on November 15 (the same day as the complete Friends set).

You'll get the previously released 7 seasons of Buffy (39 discs), plus a special bonus disc containing a brand new documentary featuring Joss Whedon. Each box will be individually numbered, and will contain a signed letter from Joss Whedon, and a comprehensive book filled with episode listings and memorable Buffy quotes. This will set you back a suggested price of $199.98 ($349.98 CAN).

Annoyed by this new set because you already have the seven seasons? Here's a quick suggestion; dump your current sets on eBay right now. Amazon.com is selling all 7 seasons in a package for a suggested price of $399.86, and their price of $231.01 (big savings). When this set hits stores it'll likely go for $140, so if you could get $120-$150 for the sets on eBay then you'll be laughing when you pick up this special boxed set. If you've never sold on eBay then go into a local DVD store that deals in used DVDs and see how much they'll give you for all 7 seasons.
Not quite sure how I feel about this yet. I'll wait to see what it looks like and if it has all the special features from the regular season sets. It sounds nice, but I think I'm comfortable with with my sets.

[SnowTrooper]

The character of The Master, as far as I know, was just an old vampire with a large following who used the title 'The Master'. Other vampires in Buffy that are old have also been shown to have more demonic looks. The looks have chained though: one vampire had hooves instead of hands I think, plus the developement of Buffy and Angel have had different interpretations of pure vampires- Buffy in season 7 and Angel on Pylea.


The Vampire your thinking of was Kakistos.The show hinted the the Master was the original first vampire but as the show went on it kinda made that seem wrong because the vampires looked more demonic so it was like they were older.

[Deathstroke]

I watched "A New Man" tonight.

The things that I loved were the interview with Professor Walsh when Buffy had to hold back her obvious fit of laughter when they bragged about Riley having killed 17 HSTs.

And the relationship of Buffy and Giles being deepened with her admission that she realized the demon was Giles because of his eyes, that only he could look that annoyed with her.

"The I In Team"

The spanking fetish that plays a part, first when Anya said to Willow that she and Xander have tried spanking. Then when Willow says "Everyone's getting spanked but me."

Funniest line - "Don't worry, I've patroled in this halter many times."

The threat from Buffy to Professor Walsh was a classic Buffy statement: ..."If you think that's enough to kill me, you really have no idea what a Slayer is, trust me when I say you're going to find out."

"Goodbye Iowa"

Great Spike moments: "I just can't bite anymore, thanks to you wankers." and when he tells Riley if he's trying to kill Buffy, and then gives him the happy faced two thumbs up sign.

[tangentman]

Giles had told her the truth, that vampires and demons exist but she never believed him until the events in Hush. She couldn't take that lifestyle of always being in danger and fighting the big bad so she left.

Olivia's last appearance in the series was "Restless", in Giles' dream vignette. Her role symbolized Giles being divided between Watcher duties and his personal life. No more Olivia appearances after that episode. Although it's not so far-fetched to suggest that she might have hooked up with him during his Season 6-7 tenure in England?

[SnowTrooper]

You know what I dont understand. When Buffy stakes a Vampire, the clothes turn to dust too.You would think that just the vampire would turn to dust but somehow the clothes go with them.I know that it would cost alot more special effects wise but that has just always kinda bugged me.

[Deathstroke]

I watched "Who Are You?" and "Where The Wild Things Are" last night.

In the first, I loved watching each actress portraying the other. Buffy as Faith and her scene in the bar with Spike was electrifying. "I could pop you like warm champagne, and you'd beg me to hurt you just a little bit more..."

In the second episode, the scene with Giles at The Espresso Pump with Willow, Xander, Anya and Tara with their mouths on the floor. I loved Willow's line about remembering why she used to have a crush on him.

[Gaz]

I watched "Who Are You?" and "Where The Wild Things Are" last night.

In the first, I loved watching each actress portraying the other. Buffy as Faith and her scene in the bar with Spike was electrifying. "I could pop you like warm champagne, and you'd beg me to hurt you just a little bit more..."

In the second episode, the scene with Giles at The Espresso Pump with Willow, Xander, Anya and Tara with their mouths on the floor. I loved Willow's line about remembering why she used to have a crush on him.
Little point, "This Year's Girl" and "Who Are You?" kinda make up a 4 (or even 5) parter with Angel, specifically "Five By Five" and "Sanctuary" ("The Yoko Factor" also kinda ties up, but isn't really part of the plot)

[Corey Dreher]

As many people said for sure, Once More with Feeling is a awsome episode.

But a couple of questions.

What was Jenny Caldendar's purpose of being on the show??

And is Dawn still the key??

I don't agree how they ended the series but hey it had to end sometime....

[Ryan K]

What was Jenny Caldendar's purpose of being on the show??

I'm not sure I really understand the question. As far as I know she wasn't really created with a specific all-encompassing purpose. She was Giles' love interest. She was another another adult for the kids to confide in. She was a pretty lady. And eventually she served the purpose of showing that no character on the show was safe, when she was killed by Angel in the second season. Though according to Whedon originaly Oz was the character that was supposed to be killed but they felt they could expand on that character more.

And is Dawn still the key??

She ceased to be the key at the end of Season 5.

[Corey Dreher]

I'm not sure I really understand the question. As far as I know she wasn't really created with a specific all-encompassing purpose. She was Giles' love interest. She was another another adult for the kids to confide in. She was a pretty lady. And eventually she served the purpose of showing that no character on the show was safe, when she was killed by Angel in the second season. Though according to Whedon originaly Oz was the character that was supposed to be killed but they felt they could expand on that character more.

My friend said something about her being a gypsy or sometihng like that. I didn't understand him.



She ceased to be the key at the end of Season 5.


After Buffy dived into the Hell portal?? Ok thanks!!

[Ryan K]

My friend said something about her being a gypsy or sometihng like that. I didn't understand him.

Ah that. She was a member of the gypsy family/tribe/whatever that cursed Angel 200 years ago with a soul. She was sent by the family's elders to keep an eye on Angel to make sure he didn't achieve a moment of pure happines and revert to Angelus. He did. The Scoobies found out and at felt betrayed. But she didn't hate Angel and knew Buffy loved him so she figured out a way to re-ensoul him. She also slowly restarted her "thing" with Giles. But the Angelus killed her. Willow used Ms. Calendar's research to re-ensoul Angel at the end of the second season.

But again, I don't believe the whol gypsy thing was written into Ms. Calendar's character when she was created. It just sort of sprung up.

[Arune Singh]

The latest ANGEL magazine had an interesting quote about the direction S4 would have gone in had Charisma Carpenter NOT been pregnant. It sounded a lot more interesting than what happened- Cordy would still be the big bad, but she'd have Connor at her side and they would have taken on everyone by themselves essentially.

[Nate Grey]

So Jasmine was brought in cause obviously Carpenter couldn't "fight" everyone while pregnant? Interesting. I still like the way it turned out, but that is still very interesting.

[Arune Singh]

So Jasmine was brought in cause obviously Carpenter couldn't "fight" everyone while pregnant? Interesting. I still like the way it turned out, but that is still very interesting.

Yeah, I'll try to find the exact quote from Jeff Bell. It seems like his biggest regret and honestly, I think it would have helped to save S4. I remember moving to the US after Angel S1 and not watching till midway in S4 and the first ep I saw was where Jasmine is born at the end. I laughed out loud. It felt like a ridiculous story and lacked the heart of the bigger arcs.

Ironically, I found S5 to be the best, where it seemed like WB had more impact- lower budget, forced done-in-one eps- and they really addressed problems with the show. S2-S3 were perfect in my eyes till Connor showed up as a teen. I like the idea but the execution left me dry. He seemed stupid to advance the plot. I also felt like making Holtz unsympathetic after he returned from Qour'toth was a big mistake. The viewer could understand his pain when he took Connor. You felt for Angel but knew that while he didn't deserve it, Angelus sure did. But once he came back and continued to be vengeful, I lost sympathy.

[SnowTrooper]

Yeah, I'll try to find the exact quote from Jeff Bell. It seems like his biggest regret and honestly, I think it would have helped to save S4. I remember moving to the US after Angel S1 and not watching till midway in S4 and the first ep I saw was where Jasmine is born at the end. I laughed out loud. It felt like a ridiculous story and lacked the heart of the bigger arcs.

Ironically, I found S5 to be the best, where it seemed like WB had more impact- lower budget, forced done-in-one eps- and they really addressed problems with the show. S2-S3 were perfect in my eyes till Connor showed up as a teen. I like the idea but the execution left me dry. He seemed stupid to advance the plot. I also felt like making Holtz unsympathetic after he returned from Qour'toth was a big mistake. The viewer could understand his pain when he took Connor. You felt for Angel but knew that while he didn't deserve it, Angelus sure did. But once he came back and continued to be vengeful, I lost sympathy.


I completely agree.Season 5 was my personal favorite and season 4 could have been alot better.I wish it would have been different.I also very much enjoyed seasons 2 and 3 although I thought the re-introduction of Connor(where he falls out of the portal and says "Hi Dad") was cool as hell.I didnt like the episodes after that until season 5.

[Deathstroke]

Finished Buffy Season 4 last night.

Decent episode to wrap up the Adam storyline. He's definitely my pick for least favorite Big Bad. He just struck me as so damn lame.

I skipped Restless because it's one of my least favorite episodes of the Buffy run.

I skipped over the Dracula episode on Season 5 and went right to The Real Me.

I love the voiceover in this episode from Dawn. Particularly when she was talking about wanting to do the things Willow and Tara do together and being sent to her room....

[CrossoverManiac]

You know what I dont understand. When Buffy stakes a Vampire, the clothes turn to dust too.You would think that just the vampire would turn to dust but somehow the clothes go with them.I know that it would cost alot more special effects wise but that has just always kinda bugged me.

That's no different than with mirrors. Angel's clothes don't seem to cast a reflection, at least when he's wearing them (maybe the clothes are considered an extension of the vampire and doesn't reflect being they're personal items). Think of it like it, the reaction of a vampire being stakes is violent enough to incinerate clothes instantly and makes more sense than non-reflecting clothes.

[CrossoverManiac]

IE: Wesley's transformation was brilliant. Willow... they lost me with the "revelation" that she was gay. It didn't jibe with me. It never has. It seemed out of left field.

If they made her bi, it would have made more sense (explaining her desire for Oz and Xander).

[Arune Singh]

If they made her bi, it would have made more sense (explaining her desire for Oz and Xander).

I would have bought that.

Also, I met someone the other day who hated "Smile time." Is there any hope for this lost soul?

[Headhunter]

Season 5 was absolutely the best; I'm still pissed that the show was ended right when it hit its creative peak.

The latest ANGEL magazine had an interesting quote about the direction S4 would have gone in had Charisma Carpenter NOT been pregnant. It sounded a lot more interesting than what happened- Cordy would still be the big bad, but she'd have Connor at her side and they would have taken on everyone by themselves essentially.
That's far better; it's an interesting parallel that Season 4 was the weakest for both Buffy and Angel.

If they made her bi, it would have made more sense (explaining her desire for Oz and Xander).
Yeah, it was far too sudden; there were no hints along the way that she might be attracted to the fairer sex, until one day it just happened.

[Perry Holley]

Also, I met someone the other day who hated "Smile time." Is there any hope for this lost soul?No, no hope at all. Stake them now, and put them out of their misery.

[Gaz]

If they made her bi, it would have made more sense (explaining her desire for Oz and Xander).
It's a slightly trickier proposition perception wise, though. A gay character is rare but people "get" it, bi characters are almost unheard of and are stereotyped to the n-th degree when they do appear.
Also, her close relationship from when they were kids explains Xander. Plus the fact that it's not unheard of for gay people to have hetero relationships before coming out, which include deep emotional bonds.

And Whedon hinted at it in S3, and he built it slowly in 4. (Would've been even slower, but Seth left)

[Headhunter]

It's a slightly trickier proposition perception wise, though. A gay character is rare but people "get" it, bi characters are almost unheard of and are stereotyped to the n-th degree when they do appear.
Buffy was a pioneer; going the road less travelled in terms of sexual identity would have been fitting.

Not that an openly gay character is mainstream or safe, but the show definitely had an audience receptive to anything, as long as it was interesting.

[Gaz]

Buffy was a pioneer; going the road less travelled in terms of sexual identity would have been fitting.

Not that an openly gay character is mainstream or safe, but the show definitely had an audience receptive to anything, as long as it was interesting.
True, but the WB was already ansty about her being gay. They damn near cut the kiss from "The Body". If they'd been on UPN, they MIGHT have been more free.

[Blueferret]

Finished Buffy Season 4 last night.

Decent episode to wrap up the Adam storyline. He's definitely my pick for least favorite Big Bad. He just struck me as so damn lame.

I skipped Restless because it's one of my least favorite episodes of the Buffy run.

I skipped over the Dracula episode on Season 5 and went right to The Real Me.

I love the voiceover in this episode from Dawn. Particularly when she was talking about wanting to do the things Willow and Tara do together and being sent to her room....


The dracula episode was one of the better season premieres IMO. The start of each season was always hard to watch for me because the writers seemed to still be finding their feet for the direction they wanted to take the season. I thought they also underutlized Dracula on the show. He could have been one of the Big Bads for an entire season due to who he is/was. That being said, getting rid of him in one episode just felt "right".

[Magneto_X]

Season 5 was absolutely the best; I'm still pissed that the show was ended right when it hit its creative peak.


In the end it was for the best. Both Buffy and Angel creatively "peaked" in their fifth seasons. It would have gone down in quality (eventually) if they kept Angel going.


Not that I was any sadder that it was cancelled, mind you.

Blueferret: S5's premiere seemed like a parody of Bram Stroker's Dracula (movie), IMO. On a low budget. Would have liked Drac as the big bad, as well. Shame, really.

[marshal99]

The dracula episode was one of the better season premieres IMO. The start of each season was always hard to watch for me because the writers seemed to still be finding their feet for the direction they wanted to take the season. I thought they also underutlized Dracula on the show. He could have been one of the Big Bads for an entire season due to who he is/was. That being said, getting rid of him in one episode just felt "right".

The Dracula episode is more like a throwaway episode that could easily have fitted in anywhere in the season , it's like a celebrity cameo after all , since the guy who played Dracula in Buffy also played Vlad the impaler in a TV movie entirely not related to Buffy.

[Headhunter]

True, but the WB was already ansty about her being gay. They damn near cut the kiss from "The Body". If they'd been on UPN, they MIGHT have been more free.
Yeah, I forgot how things were back then.

In the end it was for the best. Both Buffy and Angel creatively "peaked" in their fifth seasons. It would have gone down in quality (eventually) if they kept Angel going.
The difference is, Angel had busted out a totally new concept for Season 5. That was definitely fresh enough to make it to 7 without a creative drought.

[SnowTrooper]

I never really liked the Season 5 premiere with Dracula.He wasnt evil enough.But i would have liked it alot better if he had atleast one scene with Spike.

[Kirayoshi]

Ah that. She was a member of the gypsy family/tribe/whatever that cursed Angel 200 years ago with a soul. She was sent by the family's elders to keep an eye on Angel to make sure he didn't achieve a moment of pure happines and revert to Angelus. He did. The Scoobies found out and at felt betrayed. But she didn't hate Angel and knew Buffy loved him so she figured out a way to re-ensoul him. She also slowly restarted her "thing" with Giles. But the Angelus killed her. Willow used Ms. Calendar's research to re-ensoul Angel at the end of the second season.

But again, I don't believe the whol gypsy thing was written into Ms. Calendar's character when she was created. It just sort of sprung up.
In her first appearance, Jenny aided Giles in driving Moloch out of the Internet. I got the impression that Joss created her as a techno-savvy person who was also familiar with magic, as a way of dealing with a demon who had infected the Net. She was also a perfect foil for Giles; the technophile and the technophobe. He was a lot more fun when she was around. She also served as Willow's first tutor in the art of magic. Kind of like Ben Kenobi, helping Willow to take her 'first step into a larger world'.

[Headhunter]

I still miss Jenny Calender to this day, wasn't into the barely used Olivia at all.

[Captain Smith]

Someone probably said this but Angel fell apart with the Cordy/Conner line. It started to recover but then was cancelled.

The Buffy - girl squad , Kennedy, uber vamps arc was also abysmal. Joss let both shows go out of control with lesser talents. Wait till Serenity makes $10,000,000 total around the world to seal his fate as once having been great but now ...

[Gaz]

Someone probably said this but Angel fell apart with the Cordy/Conner line. It started to recover but then was cancelled.

The Buffy - girl squad , Kennedy, uber vamps arc was also abysmal. Joss let both shows go out of control with lesser talents. Wait till Serenity makes $10,000,000 total around the world to seal his fate as once having been great but now ...
I would point out that the declines mentioned both took place when he was concentrating elsewhere and delegated to others. (Heck he was setting up Angel, during Buffy S4 and that was horrible mostly.)
I also disagree with the flak Angel S4 gets, they made the best of what they were forced to do to get round Charisma's pregnancy. Connor served as an unknown quantity to stir things up, and Kartheiser did well in a pretty thankless role.

[Headhunter]

The Buffy - girl squad , Kennedy, uber vamps arc was also abysmal. Joss let both shows go out of control with lesser talents. Wait till Serenity makes $10,000,000 total around the world to seal his fate as once having been great but now ...
Interesting ideas, but weren't done with the usual Whedon level of quality. I still like Kennedy, though.

[Murrocko]

What season was it when Angel first bacame Angelus in Buffy, was it when it ended with Buffy and him having a sword fight and Angelus being sent to hell IIRC?

[Boomstick King]

What season was it when Angel first bacame Angelus in Buffy, was it when it ended with Buffy and him having a sword fight and Angelus being sent to hell IIRC?

That'd be season two. Yes, at the end of the season him and Buffy fight and Angel ends up getting the pointy end.

[Blueferret]

That'd be season two. Yes, at the end of the season him and Buffy fight and Angel ends up getting the pointy end.

That's one of my favorite Buffy episodes and definitely my favorite season finale. The look on Spike face when he's carrying Drusilla out while Angel and Buffy fight is classic.

[Arune Singh]

I gotta say, in defense of Angel S4, a lot of the fights kicked ass. Wes pulling the shotgun out of nowhere to fight the Beast was badass.

[Ilash]

Why does everyone hate Angel season 4 so much. Sure it had it it's problems (evil Coredelia and Connor mostly) but thye really managed to keep the tention up as the wait between episodes in that season was particularly painful. Besides, it featured both the return of Faith, an episode with Willow and Angelus returning for a time too so really, what's not to like?

[Headhunter]

Besides, it featured both the return of Faith, an episode with Willow and Angelus returning for a time too so really, what's not to like?
The whole Cordelia/Conner/Jasmine trio went the wrong way, I think. It got far too convoluted without being rewarding.

I did dig Faith/Willow, though; still don't understand why Faith wasn't offered a permanent spot on the show. Faith taking Fred out on the town would have been classic. :cool:

[Gaz]

The whole Cordelia/Conner/Jasmine trio went the wrong way, I think. It got far too convoluted without being rewarding.

I did dig Faith/Willow, though; still don't understand why Faith wasn't offered a permanent spot on the show. Faith taking Fred out on the town would have been classic. :cool:
I did enjoy the flirting between Fred and Willow.
And I still say Denisof does a double take in one of those scenes. :D

[marshal99]

I think season 4 only sucked because of one character - Conner . I find Conner a whiny irritating annoying brat and he drag the show dowwwwwnnnnn when he appears. It's great when Faith kick his ass and treat him like the annoying brat that he is.
Notice that in season 5 , it's much better because u do not have Conner whining and behaving like a spoilt brat and taking the spotlight away from Angel and gang.

[Arune Singh]

Why does everyone hate Angel season 4 so much. Sure it had it it's problems (evil Coredelia and Connor mostly) but thye really managed to keep the tention up as the wait between episodes in that season was particularly painful. Besides, it featured both the return of Faith, an episode with Willow and Angelus returning for a time too so really, what's not to like?

A lot of characters acted stupid for the sake of it (Connor and his vendetta against his dad), way too creepy (Cordy & Connor), silly (Jasmine) and the whole season felt SO convuluted for a lackluster ending.

[marshal99]

And every reason u mentioned above revolves around Conner.

[Gaz]

A lot of characters acted stupid for the sake of it (Connor and his vendetta against his dad), way too creepy (Cordy & Connor), silly (Jasmine) and the whole season felt SO convuluted for a lackluster ending.
See, I loved the Jasmine idea and the ending, they save the world by stopping it from being saved. What didn't grab you with it?
Connor/Angel was needed to producetension, and as I said, Vincent never gets any credit for his work.
Connor/Cordelia was a last minute fix for the fact that they were losing Charisma and had to write her pregnancy in, it wasn't perfect but it got the job done.

[Patient Boy]

What exactly was the reason why Charisma Carpenter left Angel? Did Joss Whedon fire her?

[Nate Grey]

A lot of characters acted stupid for the sake of it (Connor and his vendetta against his dad),

They trusted Connor till Wes clued them in, then they turned on him with a vengence, AND Angel knocked him around before kicking him out. This all happened in the season premiere, so do you have any examples throughout the season where they continued to act stupid for the sake of it in regards to Connor? Since by that point his "cover" was blown.

way too creepy (Cordy & Connor),

Kinda the point. It wasn't supposed to be anything but, plus it was our first clue this isn't really Cordy.

silly (Jasmine)

I dunno, I felt Jasmine worked. The effect she had on people (making them all happy and willing to kill or be killed for her) was pretty chilling. She was also pretty sinister, both when her power "on" and when it was finally cut "off".

and the whole season felt SO convuluted for a lackluster ending.

See, I went to TV.com just to be sure, since I haven't seen the season in a while. A LOT happened other than just Conner mugging the screen all the time. The Beast, Angelus's story arc, Willow, and of course Faith, as well as the other stories, like what drove a wedge between Gunn and Fred's relationship (him killing that professor "for" her), the ep when they all had 17 year old minds, and of course the Gwen eps. Not to mention the season finale was unexpected: your worse enemy giving you the keys to their kingdom? It didn't feel convoluted to me, it felt like episodic TV at a reasonably fast pace. And while I understand some people didn't like season 4, I don't understand blaming solely/mostly Connor. Acting style aside, a lot happened besides just HIM.

[Gaz]

What exactly was the reason why Charisma Carpenter left Angel? Did Joss Whedon fire her?
Nope, she left. She didn't like the new top guys at the show, and disagreed with the direction her character was going.

[leg end]

New discussion- which actor/actress stood out the most in your opinion?

For Buffy, I'm struggling. I really connected with xander, but that may be more to do with my own similarities to the character than Nicolas Brendon's acting. However Hannigan and Head were both superb, as was Marsters during his tenure on the show.

For Angel, I'd have to say Denisof. Wesley went from, basically, a prat that was left over from Buffy, to a core team player, to a leader, to a traitor, to a bad a$$ edge of evil character before finally finding some sense of closure in himself and his friends. I totally believed all these character changes which is why I think Alexis Denisof was the best actor on the show. Also, seeing Wesly kick butt, espcially when fighting the Beast in a John Woo slow-mo two-gun shooting style, was damn cool.


Ur thoughts?

[Arune Singh]

I haven't watches S4 in a while so forgive me if I don't qualify my statements as thoroughly as I should given the aggressive tone of my comments.

Connor was the big issue to me, acting angry and angsty without a throughline to the character- he knew that the evils he believed his father committed weren't true, at least as "Angel" and knew Holtz killed himself, but he still acted like a petulant child all the time instead of the battle hardened warrior we saw. I'd have liked to see an episode focused on Connor where we looked into his psyche but he ended up feeling like a plot point more than a fully rounded character.

My problem with Jasmine was that the acting by Torres felt over the top and I didn't find anything terribly gripping about the portrayal of the concept. I liked the idea of "how many people must die for world peace" but it felt too convuluted, with Skip, evil Cordy and all that.

If you read "Five Seasons Of Angel," a paperback with essays about the show, there's a great article about how Cordelia evolved into an unrecognizable character by the beginning of S4. And with her return, I, like many fans, I think felt cheated that her role was a too creepy relationship with Connor (she helped raise him!) and to play a lackluster villain. The question of her identity was played with so much and she acted so infuriatingly, which I could deal with if there was a pay off... but all we got was the coma. I think the show improved with her absence in S5, but I think her exit in S4 was not enthralling at all.

In terms of character stupidity, I guess my main complaints are Connor & Cordy, though at times Fred's sudden immaturity about Gunn bothered me, but their relationship ended in a natural way despite that. I guess Connor being such a numbnuts the entire time took up so much time and it bothered me.

I actually did like the season when Angelus came to the front and Faith joined in... but that's really all. Connor did eat up A LOT of screen time and despite the fact that this isn't "real" Cordy, it was all too creepy.

[Kain's_Legacy]

There really isn't a bad season of Angel to me. Season 1 had nice stand alone eps with some really stellar single ones dealing with his past. Season 2 flashbacks and storyarc with Darla was perfect and to this day remains some of the most poignant episodes of the series. 3+4 were great in that they dealt with THE apocalypse, rain of fire, the Beast, the Anti-Christ (Jasmine swaying the people). Excellent, with some Angelus fun thrown in. Season 5 had Spike, and a fun inversion of the dynamic.

In order, I'd probably put:

2, 3, 4, 1, 5 with all being good.

Buffy was good except for the last two, which still had some stellar single episodes but lost sight of who the characters were in my opinion. Order:

3, 2, 5, 1, 4, 6, 7.

[Nate Grey]

I haven't watches S4 in a while so forgive me if I don't qualify my statements as thoroughly as I should given the aggressive tone of my comments.

Hey, its cool. I mean there's no need for an essay, it just sounded like you felt just Connor was the ONLY problem, and when there was so many other things, including him, to pick apart. :)

Connor was the big issue to me, acting angry and angsty without a throughline to the character- he knew that the evils he believed his father committed weren't true, at least as "Angel" and knew Holtz killed himself, but he still acted like a petulant child all the time instead of the battle hardened warrior we saw. I'd have liked to see an episode focused on Connor where we looked into his psyche but he ended up feeling like a plot point more than a fully rounded character.

I understand that. The way I looked at him myself was a child in desperate need of a father. Finding out someone lied doesn't necessary hit an emotional on or off switch. Finding out Holtz was a liar and had a vendetta didn't shut off his feelings of him as a father figure, and as such he felt abandonment when Holtz committed suicide. Finding out all the stuff about Angel wasn't true didn't shut ON any feelings he should have toward his true father, he still had that residual emotion of revenge left over and it had to go somewhere. So I saw him as a confused and confliced kid, the angst and petulance was there, true, but in my mind the reason why was perfect. As for it being a plot point, that's true, too: Angel isn't supposed to know happiness, period, so Connor's situation and the hard fact that he may never be able to save his son in any sense of the word was yet another "hell on earth" reality for Angel.

My problem with Jasmine was that the acting by Torres felt over the top and I didn't find anything terribly gripping about the portrayal of the concept. I liked the idea of "how many people must die for world peace" but it felt too convuluted, with Skip, evil Cordy and all that.

I can understand that. I'd only argue, though, that Skip's true nature was just...amazing. Thinking he was a joke when he was playing all along, I thought that was genius. Not as genius as the way Wes killed him, though. :D "That's not right. [THUD!]"

If you read "Five Seasons Of Angel," a paperback with essays about the show, there's a great article about how Cordelia evolved into an unrecognizable character by the beginning of S4. And with her return, I, like many fans, I think felt cheated that her role was a too creepy relationship with Connor (she helped raise him!) and to play a lackluster villain. The question of her identity was played with so much and she acted so infuriatingly, which I could deal with if there was a pay off... but all we got was the coma. I think the show improved with her absence in S5, but I think her exit in S4 was not enthralling at all.

Well, I'll admit that I didn't come up with my "theory" of Cordy until the 100th episode (how she left her body behind when she ascended in Season 3 and Jasmine just possessed a soulless body, making the first time we've seen the real Cordy since season 3 being the 100th ep), and I'm still not 100% sure she wasn't just co-opting the body as opposed to driving an empty husk.

In terms of character stupidity, I guess my main complaints are Connor & Cordy, though at times Fred's sudden immaturity about Gunn bothered me, but their relationship ended in a natural way despite that. I guess Connor being such a numbnuts the entire time took up so much time and it bothered me.

Fred and Gunn was like...teenage love. New, fresh, and unbound, but not meant to last. I didn't like that it ended at first until I realized that, then I came around to understand it WAS natural how it ended.

I actually did like the season when Angelus came to the front and Faith joined in... but that's really all. Connor did eat up A LOT of screen time and despite the fact that this isn't "real" Cordy, it was all too creepy.

I get ya. :)

[metalhead_dave743]

Another Question, how was Conner able to put his fist through Jasmine's head when Angel couldn't even dent her?

[Gaz]

Another Question, how was Conner able to put his fist through Jasmine's head when Angel couldn't even dent her?
He was her father, basically. Given that Cordelia's blood broke the glamour, it makes sens that her parents were the key to beating her.

[metalhead_dave743]

He was her father, basically. Given that Cordelia's blood broke the glamour, it makes sens that her parents were the key to beating her.


Oh yeah I remember Wes explaining that. I wish they would have brought that up enough to make me expect Connor to be able to cave her face in though.

[Gaz]

Oh yeah I remember Wes explaining that. I wish they would have brought that up enough to make me expect Connor to be able to cave her face in though.
Well the point is that you're not supposed to expect it.

[metalhead_dave743]

Well the point is that you're not supposed to expect it.

It just felt like they could have explained it better. Even after Connor was able to cave in Jasmine if they told it to Angel it would have made more sense.

And I would have been surprised enough if I knew Connor COULD destroy Jasmine but having him come off as not wanting to.

[Gaz]

It just felt like they could have explained it better. Even after Connor was able to cave in Jasmine if they told it to Angel it would have made more sense.

And I would have been surprised enough if I knew Connor COULD destroy Jasmine but having him come off as not wanting to.
Well, they did explain that Cordelia being her mother meant she was vulnerable to her parents, and she called Connor her father a lot. It was subtle, not blaring "Do this and the villain will die next episode!" exposition.

[tangentman]

New discussion- which actor/actress stood out the most in your opinion?

For Buffy, I'm struggling. I really connected with xander, but that may be more to do with my own similarities to the character than Nicolas Brendon's acting. However Hannigan and Head were both superb, as was Marsters during his tenure on the show.

For Angel, I'd have to say Denisof. Wesley went from, basically, a prat that was left over from Buffy, to a core team player, to a leader, to a traitor, to a bad a$$ edge of evil character before finally finding some sense of closure in himself and his friends. I totally believed all these character changes which is why I think Alexis Denisof was the best actor on the show. Also, seeing Wesly kick butt, espcially when fighting the Beast in a John Woo slow-mo two-gun shooting style, was damn cool.


Ur thoughts?


Buffy--Of course, Head, Marsters and Hannigan stole many a scene with well-timed humorous lines or emotional moments. With her post-"Hell's Belles" whining excepted, an Anya scene almost always brought a smile to my face :D Emma Caulfield showed an extraordinary flare for comedy. The way she would say the most bizarre and inappropriate comments, and often smile expectantly for approval when she thought that she "got it right" was always gold to me!

Tara was a very understated character, so much so that when she broke out of "shy girlfriend" mode, she was truly sublime! I'm thinking of that lopsided half-smile at the end of "Family", the way she slowly began assuming a maternal role for the Scoobies after "The Body", the "Grr-Argh" moment with Giles' departure in "Bargaining Pt. 1" and her standing up for Willow in "Older and Far Away". All these episodes showed an amazing progress for Amber Benson's character and nobody else could have pulled off that one character.


Angel--Wesley consistently outshined the rest of the cast throughout the series. I especially love him in Season 3 and afterwards--no other character in the Whedonverse showed as many facets as Wesley, imo.

Fred was awesome in Season 5 and Acker amazed me when she totally jumped track with Illyria--and often alternated back and forth between those modes in the same turn! Underrated player on the show!

[Headhunter]

I did enjoy the flirting between Fred and Willow.
And I still say Denisof does a double take in one of those scenes. :D
Heh, good times.

[Ilash]

As for favourite characters, it's so hard to choose:

Buffy: Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles (actually he's probably my favourite), Spike, Anya, Tara, Oz, Kennedy (kidding)... the characters on this show were just too awesome

Angel: I dug all the main characters on the show but Wesley is the easy win for me here. What a brilliant, complex character!

DAMNIT! I Really need some new Joss Whedon stuff on TV! Television just ain't the same without him.

[Deathstroke]

I'm watching Season 5 of Buffy currently.

I love Clare Kramer when she's yelling at the monk. "I could crap a better existence than this..."

[Deathstroke]

Oh, and the troll episode still stinks.

[Gaz]

I'm watching Season 5 of Buffy currently.

I love Clare Kramer when she's yelling at the monk. "I could crap a better existence than this..."
Clare gets a bad rap, she was great as, well, what Cordelia probably SHOULD have been in Angel season 4

[Deathstroke]

Clare gets a bad rap, she was great as, well, what Cordelia probably SHOULD have been in Angel season 4

I don't know why she gets a bad rap, she's probably my favorite season long Big Bad.

[Gaz]

I don't know why she gets a bad rap, she's probably my favorite season long Big Bad.
Nah, Angelus and The Mayor were better. "Two words: Miniature. Golf." :D

[marshal99]

Season 1 The Master was weak

Season 2 Angelus ,Spike & Darla was cool

Season 3 Major was pretty good although his metamorphois to a giant snake sucked.

Season 4 Adam - now i know a lot of people didn't like him but i think generally it's the season that's weak , not just the big bad.

Season 5 Glory - she's underrated , she's behaves like a ditzy airhead who's actually a goddess but i like her generally wacky antics

Season 6 the trio & willow - Willow in the end , turned out to be the big bad of the season though it was the trio that inevitably led her down that dark path.

Season 7 The First - wasn't that scary due to the fact that she's/It's pretty much intangible and not a physical threat. She/It let her minions like Caleb & the uber vamps do the dirty work but was she/it really vanquished ? I think not as long as evil exists , the first exists but still , all in all , the vanquishing of the First was only due to a plot device (i.e the gift from Angel in a 5 minute cameo).

[Super Samurai]

Season 7 The First - wasn't that scary due to the fact that she's/It's pretty much intangible and not a physical threat. She/It let her minions like Caleb & the uber vamps do the dirty work but was she/it really vanquished ? I think not as long as evil exists , the first exists but still , all in all , the vanquishing of the First was only due to a plot device (i.e the gift from Angel in a 5 minute cameo).
I was really waiting for Angel's appearance and it was for only 5 minutes. Then all he does is stand there and make comments about Buffy while she's fighting. That's a little unusual, I was expecting for them to at least fight together.

DAMN YOU UPN!!!

[Indigo Al]

Buffy is prepared to sacrifice Dawn to save the world, right?

She's prepared to let Spike kill Principal Wood, right?

And yet, she was unwilling to make the sacrifice of taking the extra power from the Shadowmen and become "inhuman".

Interesting...

[SnowTrooper]

Buffy is prepared to sacrifice Dawn to save the world, right?

She's prepared to let Spike kill Principal Wood, right?

And yet, she was unwilling to make the sacrifice of taking the extra power from the Shadowmen and become "inhuman".

Interesting...


Its wierd.Shes died and came back twice, she has superhuman abilities, and shes killed hundreds of nasty monsters.And shes worried about her humanity.

[Deathstroke]

Its wierd.Shes died and came back twice, she has superhuman abilities, and shes killed hundreds of nasty monsters.And shes worried about her humanity.

Which makes her that much more human, wouldn't you say?

[Arune Singh]

The ultimate Buffy Deus Ex Machina, the Slayer Scythe, is now for sale in PREVIEWS, as a prop replica of course. I'm not big on the look, but it's cool to have it available, though nothing beats my SWORD OF ANGELUS. Once I get that, expect to see funny Angel wannabe photos posted, as I have Boreanaz Angel hair right now and like to wear black and/or tank tops. ;)

[Deathstroke]

I watched Checkpoint tonight. Another great Buffy monologue at the end....

[Deathstroke]

Hey all, Robia LaMorte (Jenny Calendar) and Iyari Limon (Kennedy) have been added to the Wizard World Boston guest list.

[SnowTrooper]

What do you think the funniest episode of Angel was?
I like the epsiode Spin The Bottle where they all lose there moemory and turn into there high school versions.

[Magneto_X]

I disagree. The funniest ep on Angel was "Smile Time".

[Deathstroke]

I just watched Checkpoint, Blood Ties, Crush, and Warren's robot girlfriend episode.

Checkpoint - Great ending with Buffy putting the Watcher's Council in their proper place, then being shocked when they make the reveal of Glory's origin.

Blood Ties - The opening when Buffy reveals that Dawn is The Key. I liked how the Scoobies gave Buffy what for about keeping the secret. But what I didn't like is seeing only the beginning of when Buffy tells them. I think it would've been better to see the realization sink in on their faces.

When Spike and Dawn learn she's the key was great, and when Dawn cuts herself at home...man that was a great scene. Oh, and Buffy going at Spike. I loved Spike's line that ended with "...play another round of Kick The Spike!"

Crush - When Dawn and Buffy are walking through the graveyard and Dawn tells Buffy that Spike is in love with her. The stunned look and the "Huh?" from Buffy were priceless.

The Girl Robot episode - Spike being thrown through the window and then saying "You know what? My sympathies to bloody Warren."

[SoulOnIce]

I just finished Angel Season 5 on DVD and I am really depressed knowing I will never see a new episode of Buffy or Angel.

I really hope Joss does a movie or something with the characters.

[Gaz]

I just watched Checkpoint, Blood Ties, Crush, and Warren's robot girlfriend episode.



The Girl Robot episode - Spike being thrown through the window and then saying "You know what? My sympathies to bloody Warren."
The really sad thing in that episode? Listen to what Tara says when they discuss Warren. She defends him, pretty much the only one who does. It's tragic that it ends being him who kills her.

[Arune Singh]

I just caught some of the S2 Angel eps on TBS and I'm still impressed by the balls on that show- Angel letting the W&H employees be slaughtered is just beyond impressive.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I finished watching Buffy, Season 4 last night. Some great stuff through that season, though it was sort of disjointed... and I have to say, season finales go, the season 4 one didn't do it for me. Still, some great individual episodes and story arcs.

[Gaz]

I finished watching Buffy, Season 4 last night. Some great stuff through that season, though it was sort of disjointed... and I have to say, season finales go, the season 4 one didn't do it for me. Still, some great individual episodes and story arcs.
Restless (the finale) is one of Whedon's experimental episodes. He occasionally does something to see if he can. I liked the character sketches via dreams, but it is a bit odd and is somewhat anti-climactic. (He was pretty sure they'd be picked up again, so he felt less pressure to wrap everything up neatly at the end that year)
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."


What did you think of Hush? And of Riley, Tara/Willow and the twist with Spike?

[JeffreyWKramer]

What did you think of Hush? And of Riley, Tara/Willow and the twist with Spike?

"Hush" is among my favorite BUFFY episodes.

Tara/Willow is... sort of odd. Tara seems so pathetic and dependent that the relationship actually makes me think less of Willow, that she'd be attracted to someone like that.

The Spike stuff, it's hard for me to buy that the gang doesn't just stake him when he keeps screwing around and switching sides. I'm glad, though, because he gets some of the very best lines on the series.

[Headhunter]

Tara/Willow is... sort of odd. Tara seems so pathetic and dependent that the relationship actually makes me think less of Willow, that she'd be attracted to someone like that.
YES! I've been irritated from the very beginning of that relationship, and couldn't pin it down...that's exactly it.

Probably why I liked Kennedy so much.

The Spike stuff, it's hard for me to buy that the gang doesn't just stake him when he keeps screwing around and switching sides. I'm glad, though, because he gets some of the very best lines on the series.
I think they realized he could be an asset, and put up with his antics. Same with Andrew...

[marshal99]

Tara/Willow is... sort of odd. Tara seems so pathetic and dependent that the relationship actually makes me think less of Willow, that she'd be attracted to someone like that.


I think Tara reminds Willow of herself at the beginning. In the first 3 season of Buffy , Willow was a shy wallflower that never came out of her inner shell , it was Oz that brought her out. Willow did the same for Tara and towards the end , you can see that Tara grew in confidence over the season and became strong.

[Gaz]

"Hush" is among my favorite BUFFY episodes.

Tara/Willow is... sort of odd. Tara seems so pathetic and dependent that the relationship actually makes me think less of Willow, that she'd be attracted to someone like that.

The Spike stuff, it's hard for me to buy that the gang doesn't just stake him when he keeps screwing around and switching sides. I'm glad, though, because he gets some of the very best lines on the series.
That is what bothers me when people say she got too much focus. Tara was defined as "Willow's girlfriend" for about 2 seasons... she does develop and get more comfortable with the group later though, kinda becoming a female Giles, the calm centre of the group.
(Besides, if you don't fall in love with her in "The Body" and "Once More, With Feeling", you're a heartless monster. :p )

[Gaz]

YES! I've been irritated from the very beginning of that relationship, and couldn't pin it down...that's exactly it.

Probably why I liked Kennedy so much.


I think they realized he could be an asset, and put up with his antics. Same with Andrew...
Kennedy went the other way, she started off as the pushy rich bratty one, and later started deferring to Willow more and more.

[Patient Boy]

I watched the Angel two-parter that introduced Illyria.

Wow. Poor Wes.

Other than that, it was really well done. It's a damned shame this show didn't last at least another season.

[Patient Boy]

Finally caught the last episode of Angel. Now that's how a series should go out.

[borateen]

Finally caught the last episode of Angel. Now that's how a series should go out.

Whenever it's come up, I've always stated that I thought that Angel Season 5 was the best season of television I've ever watched. For me, the show hit on all levels that season, culminating in the best season finale I think I've ever seen.

[Arune Singh]

Whenever it's come up, I've always stated that I thought that Angel Season 5 was the best season of television I've ever watched. For me, the show hit on all levels that season, culminating in the best season finale I think I've ever seen.

I also think that the WB's mandate of more accessible, one shot episodes really benefitted the series. The writers didn't spend time or irrelevant stuff (the whole Pylea trip felt like a waste) and didn't bog us down in mintuia (I hated the whole story of how Cordy was evil), allowing for a sharp focus on the characters.

[marshal99]

At least the whole pylea trip serve a purpose , it brought Fred to the series. I dislike Season 4 because of that whiny pup Conner.

[Kirayoshi]

YES! I've been irritated from the very beginning of that relationship, and couldn't pin it down...that's exactly it.

Probably why I liked Kennedy so much.
Oh, so you were the one!

I loved Tara, especially the way her character evolved during her time on the show. She and Willow were probably the best couple on the show.

Kennedy, on the other hand, never won me over. She was female and a lesbian. She and Willow had nothing else in common. I found zero chemistry between the two of them. If they ever do a reunion show(or that new BtVS comic that Joss was hinting about), they should include a subplot where Willow realizes that she and Kennedy weren't meant to be together.

I think they realized he could be an asset, and put up with his antics. Same with Andrew...
I could buy that with Spike, and actually liked how he and Dawn had become awkward friends, but they should have staked his butt in Season Six. He managed to do more damage during that time than any time before on the show by playing mindgames with Buffy in order to get into her panties. Having her seemingly fall for him in the last two seasons literally made my stomach turn. That wasn't love, it was Stockholm Syndrome! And the whole I've-got-a-soul-now-so-everything's-hunkydory-fine bit was the last straw. He did nothing to earn a soul, and we're supposed to simply sweep a hundred years of murder and mayhem just because he was nice to Dawn? I don't think so. His redemption rang false to me.

I have similar issues with Illyria. Fun character, and it's great to see Amy Acker stretch as an actress, but making her an ally was a mistake. She was not penitent, she was biding her time, waiting for the chance to regain her powers. And then they had Wes sleep with her? He slept with the monster that killed the woman he loved! Just because of that, I cheered when he died.

Seriously, every day that Angel didn't devote to hunting down Illyria was the same as spitting on Fred's memory. She was a mad dog that needed to be brought down. She should have been the Big Bad, not an ally.

And as far as I'm concerned, Once More With Feeling aside, Buffy the Vampire Slayer went off the air in May of 2001, it's last episode was The Gift. Buffy died saving the world from Glory, and that show that aired on UPN for two years after that was a spinoff starring a Bizarro-universe version of Buffy.

[borateen]

as far as I'm concerned, Once More With Feeling aside, Buffy the Vampire Slayer went off the air in May of 2001, it's last episode was The Gift. Buffy died saving the world from Glory, and that show that aired on UPN for two years after that was a spinoff starring a Bizarro-universe version of Buffy.

That's kind of how I see it, also.

[Patient Boy]

I have similar issues with Illyria. Fun character, and it's great to see Amy Acker stretch as an actress, but making her an ally was a mistake. She was not penitent, she was biding her time, waiting for the chance to regain her powers. And then they had Wes sleep with her? He slept with the monster that killed the woman he loved! Just because of that, I cheered when he died.


You know, I'm not sure he did sleep with her. I'm quite sure the only time Wes willingly had Illyria assume Fred's body was just before he died.

[Ryan K]

I never got the impression Wes slept with Illyria. Did I miss something?

[shades of eternity]

yeah, the only reason wesley didn't go for the kill is to keep what is left of fred alive
- illyria effectively absorbed fred, and to kill her would be to destroy the soul fragments that are left.

sleep with illyria, which episode?

[boondoggle]

And then they had Wes sleep with her? He slept with the monster that killed the woman he loved! Just because of that, I cheered when he died.

Didn't happen. There's absolutely no on-screen evidence that Wes slept with Illyria.

[xnef1025]

Didn't happen. There's absolutely no on-screen evidence that Wes slept with Illyria.
Yup, never happened. I thought Illyria was an interesting character. Had another season been allowed, seeing a former god adjust to semi-mortal life would have been much more intriguing than another, "former ally is possessed by evil and becomes big bad" storyline.

[Corey Dreher]

Tara really grew on me. I loved her alot and her death did no justice to her character at all and that made me really p.o.ed. I wanted Tara to die trying to save someone or something like that. I cried when Tara died for one reason. She was my favorite character. She was the only real real person. Buffy was still to perfect even though she was going through alot. Dawn seemed to whiny for my likings. Xander well... he just wasn't established enough in the 5th/6th season. He was just the working man without powers. Willow seemed way to hopped up on magic to seem earthly at all. Anya won my heart after Tara because she was just herself, but Xander tried to kepe it in.

[Kirayoshi]

Yup, never happened. I thought Illyria was an interesting character. Had another season been allowed, seeing a former god adjust to semi-mortal life would have been much more intriguing than another, "former ally is possessed by evil and becomes big bad" storyline.Okay, I may have misunderstood Illyria's dialogue toward the end of "Not Fade Away". But still, the fact that Wes and the others were welcoming her as part of the team, as opposed to actively trying to kill her for what she did to Fred still rankles me.

Illyria not only killed Fred, but she destroyed her soul, robbing her of even an afterlife(and yes, I know that Joss is an athiest, but given the past references to Heaven and Hell, we must assume that Heaven exists in the Jossverse). They owed it to Fred's memory to take Illyria down, to stop her from killing more innocents. But instead they have her join the team. So instead of "former ally is possessed by evil and becomes big bad", we have "unrepentant villain receives undeserved absolution(see Spike)". Sorry, but I have this wierd idea that evil should be opposed and fought, not accepted blithely. At least Spike made a conscious effort to change. Illyria only disguised herself; she was still openly evil.

What I would have liked to have seen in a hypothetical season 6 would be a story where Fred turned out to be alive inside her body, and her soul would fight Illyria's for possession of her body, until they would reach a detente, allowing for them both to share the body. That way we could have Fred's personality(hardened slightly due to Illyria's influence) and intellect, and when action is called for she could give control over to Illyria. Now that would have been interesting, allowing for unusual character development and relationship entanglements. I'd love to see one of the better fanfic writers out there tackle that idea.

[Gaz]

Okay, I may have misunderstood Illyria's dialogue toward the end of "Not Fade Away". But still, the fact that Wes and the others were welcoming her as part of the team, as opposed to actively trying to kill her for what she did to Fred still rankles me.

Illyria not only killed Fred, but she destroyed her soul, robbing her of even an afterlife(and yes, I know that Joss is an athiest, but given the past references to Heaven and Hell, we must assume that Heaven exists in the Jossverse). They owed it to Fred's memory to take Illyria down, to stop her from killing more innocents. But instead they have her join the team. So instead of "former ally is possessed by evil and becomes big bad", we have "unrepentant villain receives undeserved absolution(see Spike)". Sorry, but I have this wierd idea that evil should be opposed and fought, not accepted blithely. At least Spike made a conscious effort to change. Illyria only disguised herself; she was still openly evil.

What I would have liked to have seen in a hypothetical season 6 would be a story where Fred turned out to be alive inside her body, and her soul would fight Illyria's for possession of her body, until they would reach a detente, allowing for them both to share the body. That way we could have Fred's personality(hardened slightly due to Illyria's influence) and intellect, and when action is called for she could give control over to Illyria. Now that would have been interesting, allowing for unusual character development and relationship entanglements. I'd love to see one of the better fanfic writers out there tackle that idea.

AFAIK that WAS the plan. The "Illyria can fake Fred" thing was a hint that she wasn't totally gone, as was the Wesley connection.

[Gaz]

Didn't happen. There's absolutely no on-screen evidence that Wes slept with Illyria.
Heck, it points to the opposite. He refuses when she offers in Not Fade Away.

[shades of eternity]

er, they were told to celebrate their last night on earth as if it was her last.

Wesley didn't, and wouldn't.

[Kirayoshi]

AFAIK that WAS the plan. The "Illyria can fake Fred" thing was a hint that she wasn't totally gone, as was the Wesley connection.I wasn't sure about that. There were too many statements to the effect of "Fred was dead, no chance of resurrection" being made.

I guess my problem was, while Illyria was a cool character, so was Fred, and I still think there was more they could do with her. I guess we'll never know now.

[tangentman]

Does anyone remember if Dania Ramirez' character, Caridad, was ever actually mentioned by name IN the Season 7 episodes? She was the latina Potential who became active and survived the series finale. I always saw her name in the credits and magazines, but I can't ever recall a point where another character actually identified her by name.

Caridad wasn't just wallpaper, either; she was the other Potential in Xander's notorious fantasy toward the beginning of "Dirty Girls", helped kidnap the Bringer, and fought with the Potentials/Scoobies in most major fights during the last 5 episodes.

Any help will be appreciated! :)

[Indigo Al]

Does anyone remember if Dania Ramirez' character, Caridad, was ever actually mentioned by name IN the Season 7 episodes? She was the latina Potential who became active and survived the series finale. I always saw her name in the credits and magazines, but I can't ever recall a point where another character actually identified her by name.

Caridad wasn't just wallpaper, either; she was the other Potential in Xander's notorious fantasy toward the beginning of "Dirty Girls", helped kidnap the Bringer, and fought with the Potentials/Scoobies in most major fights during the last 5 episodes.

Any help will be appreciated! :)

I happened to notice her a lot during Season 7 - she was quite hot! To be honest though, I really can't remember anyone calling her by name.

[tangentman]

I liked Caridad--after Amanda, she was one of my favorite Potentials! She kicked all kinds of ass in a fight BEFORE becoming Chosen. I wish that she had appeared with Andrew in the Angel Season 5 ep about the crazy Slayer.
Dania Ramirez is playing Callisto in X3, too!

[DMike]

The only Potentials I actually liked were Amanda, the geeky one who died in the end, and Vi, the timid redhead who got all asskicker in the end. The others range from mildly annoying to Kennedy (yes, she's a category in and of herself).

[tangentman]

LOL Yes, I was part of the "Kennedy Must Die NOW" club. I might have even been Treasurer. ;)

[Kirayoshi]

LOL Yes, I was part of the "Kennedy Must Die NOW" club. I might have even been Treasurer. ;)Kennedy had but one purpose and that was to be a lesbian, so Willow wouldn't be so lonely. If she had anything resembling character development beyond that, or if the actress playing her had even an iota of chemistry with Aly Hannigan, I might have bought it. Seriously, after one night with Kennedy, Willow should have woken up and said, "Hey, suddenly I'm straight again. How'd that happen?"

Seriosly, between Kennedy, Buffy turning into a total control-freak, total lack of a decent big-bad and the deconstruction of Spike from cool villain to Buffy's lapdog, Season 7 is like that new Dyson vaccuum you might have seen advertized: It never loses suction.

[Ryan K]

For no other reason than I'm bored, I proudly present . . .

The Great Buffy/Angel Poll

For each category give an answer for Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. For example, Favorite Episode. List your favorite episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and your favorite episode of Angel. Of course if you really only want to answer one of them go ahead. And of course you don't have to answer all the questions if you don't want to.

And the categories are . . .

Favorite Main Character
Main meaning a character who appeared in the opening credits at least once.

Favorite Supporting Character
Supporting meaning reoccurring character.

Favorite Single Appearence Character
The title of that one should be pretty self explanatory.

Favorite Reoccuring Villain
Your favorite villain to appear in more than one episode.

Favorite Standalone Episode Villain
Your favorite monster of the week.

Favorite Actor/Actress
Possibly different than favorite character, which performer do you think gave the best performances through the years.

Most Attractive Person
Which male/female did you find the most attractive.

Favorite Season
In the end I think this will probably mirror many peoples's choices for favorite reoccuring villan, but we'll see.

Favorite Episode
Which one's your favorite.

A Favorite Quote.
I say "A" because it would be damn near impossible for me personally to single out a one and only favorite.

Scariest Moment.
Which moment or scene made you jump . . . even if you won't admit it.

Coolest Moment
Maybe a line of dialogue, or a kick ass punch, which moment was the coolest for you.

Biggest Tearjerker Moment
Even if you didn't actually cry, which moment tugged at your heart strings a little more than any other.

Most Romantic Moment

Favorite Novel
Answer this one only if you're nerd enough to admit to having read one.

That's it. But everybody feel free to throw some more categories out there for everybody to answer.

[Gaz]

Favorite Main Character
Willow and Wesley. God those kids will disgustingly talented...

Favorite Supporting Character
Tara and Lorne.

Favorite Single Appearence Character
Whistler and Gwen Raiden. (close enough to single, right?)

Favorite Reoccuring Villain
The Mayor and Lilah.

Favorite Standalone Episode Villain
Sunday and the blind assassin from Blind Date.

Favorite Actor/Actress
Alyson Hannigan and Alexis Densiof

Most Attractive Person
Eliza Dushku and Charisma Carpenter

Favorite Season
Season 2 (B) and season 5(A)

Favorite Episode
Once More, With Feeling and Not Fade Away

A Favorite Quote.
"Bottom line is, even if you see 'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are."

and

"If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters… then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today."

Scariest Moment.
The Gentlemen and "I just can't seem to care..."

Coolest Moment
The whole 730 thing
and
"I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys" *punts Lindsey across room*

Biggest Tearjerker Moment
"Your shirt..." (Damn you Whedon!)
and
"He is NOT a lower being." (Lame, I know...)

Favorite Novel
The Lost Slayer.

[spoon_jenkins]

I'll answer a few. I'd have to think about some others. I watched very little of Angle, even though I was a big Buffy fan, so I only gave answer for BtVS.

Favorite Main Character
Main meaning a character who appeared in the opening credits at least once.
Hard to say . . . it's probably between Buffy, Giles, and Willow.

Favorite Reoccuring Villain
Your favorite villain to appear in more than one episode.
Mayor Richard Wilkins III

Most Attractive Person
Which male/female did you find the most attractive.
Jenny Calendar

Favorite Season
In the end I think this will probably mirror many peoples's choices for favorite reoccuring villan, but we'll see.
Season 3 - yup it matches my favorite recurring villain.

A Favorite Quote.
I say "A" because it would be damn near impossible for me personally to single out a one and only favorite.
"Giles, there are two things that I don't believe in - coincidences and leprechauns."

Biggest Tearjerker Moment
Even if you didn't actually cry, which moment tugged at your heart strings a little more than any other.
1) Buffy's "I quit" speech in "Prophecy Girl."
2) Buffy finding her mother's dead body on the couch.

[Ryan K]

I shall begin . . .

Favorite Main Character
Buffy: I have to go with Xander. I think he was a bit of a dick towards his ladies sometimes, but as the nerd (at least in the beginning) and the only male character my age (again at the beginning), I connected with his character the most. Runner Up: Giles.
Angel: Tougher to call, but I go with Wesley over Angel. Wesley had the most drastic change I'd seen from a character on TV. And it was done slowly (over 2 seasons) and believably.

Favorite Supporting Character
Buffy: I imagine Faith runs away with this one, I'm going with Principal Snyder. What a vicious little man. He's the main reason Band Candy is one of my favorite episodes. Runner Up: Jonathan
Angel: Lindsey. Hands down.

Favorite Single Appearence Character
I'll come back to this one.

Favorite Reoccuring Villain
Buffy: The Mayor. I love it when the villains areas seemingly nice as the Mayor.
Angel: Lindsey. The perfect cool foil for Angel. And when he got a sword . . . fuhgedaboutit. I was sold.

Favorite Standalone Episode Villain
Buffy: It's hard to go with anything other than the Gentlemen here for me. Creepy as hell. Runner Up: The brief appearence by the Fear Demon.
Angel: Horatio. The giant puppet creature. Runner Up: The Prince of Lies from the submarine episode.

Favorite Actor/Actress
Buffy: Alyson Hannigan. I think she showed the most range of all the actors on the show. Runner Up: Anthony Stewart Head.
Angel: David Boreanaz. It's tough not to take Denisof here after I mentioned Wesley's remarkable transformation, but Boreanaz played Ange, Angel pissed at the world, and Angelus. Three different levels. Plus I think he carried his show better than Gellar.

Most Attractive Person
Buffy: I'm a sucker for big eyes so I gotta go with Hannigan. Runner up: Anya.
Angel: Again with the eyes. Amy Acker. Runner-Up: Cordelia.

Favorite Season
Buffy: Season 3. My favorite villain (the Mayor) plus it's the only full season with what I consider the best cast: Buffy, Angel, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Oz, and Giles. Throw in Faith and a great season finale. I like it. Runner-up: Season 5.
Angel: Season 5. The best mix of stand alone and mythology (to steal a phrase from X-Files) episodes. Great deaths. Fantastic finish. Runner-up: Season 1.

Favorite Episode
Buffy: So many to choose from. But I gotta go with Hush. Funny like most episodes but genuinely scary too. Runner up: Once More with Feeling.
Angel: Smile Time. It shouldn't have worked on so many levels, but it did. Runner up: Have you Now or Have You Ever Been.

A Favorite Quote.
I'll come back to this one too.

Scariest Moment.
Buffy: The moment in Hush where the Gentlemen cut out the boys heart and they show his face.
Angel: Not a lot of these on Angel, but I'll say the scene with the mother bricking her son into the wall. Maybe not as scary as just disturbing.

Coolest Moment
Buffy: This is easy. Dark Willow says something to the effect of "No one can defeat me" and Giles blasts her across the room and utters "I'd like to test that theory". I jumped out of my seat.
Angel: I'm of the opinion that any moment with Wes and a gun qualifies here. So I'll go with him shooting one of the W&H employees after he suggest not everyone should be working to save Fred's life. Runner up: Angel kicking the bad guy out the window in the pilot. There are way too many cool moments on Angel. I could ramble in this category for pages.

Biggest Tearjerker Moment
Buffy: Anya explaining why she doesn't understand that Buffy's mom is dead. Great stuff.
Angel: Any time they replay Doyle's video tape (Episode 9 and 100). Runner up: Ange getting the call about Cordy . . . that 100th episode just $%#^ed me up.

Most Romantic Moment
Buffy: Xander telling Anya how much she means to him after Riley and Buffy break up.
Angel: Wesley holding Fred as she dies.

Favorite Novel
Buffy: Without a doubt The Gatekeeper's Trilogy. Runner up: Anything else by Golden.
Angel: Haven't actually read any of these yet.

[Gaz]

Most Romantic Moment
"I am, y'know." "Huh?" "Yours."
and
the end of I Will Remember You. (Never bought the Angel/Cordy pairing, and the Wesley moments are more tragic than anything.)

[AceOfSpades]

Favorite Main Character
Willow and Cordelia

Favorite Supporting Character
Faith and Lindsay

Favorite Single Appearence Character
Oh god.. I have no idea

Favorite Reoccuring Villain
Dark Willow and Lindsey

Favorite Standalone Episode Villain
Sweet and any puppet from "Smile Time"


Favorite Actor/Actress
Aly Hannigan (B) and Charisma Carpenter (A)

Most Attractive Person
Faith and Cordy

Favorite Season
Season 6 (B), with season 3 close behind and Season 5 (Angel) oddly enough

Favorite Episode
Buffy - tie-- Gingerbread, Passion, and Dopplegangland Angel-- Orpheus

A Favorite Quote.
"Bored Now"

Scariest Moment.
Buffy -- When that Gnarl was peeling the skin off of Willow
Angel-- The episode where Fred died, when she started signing then coughing up blood

Coolest Moment
Buffy- Willow as Uber-Dark Willow
Angel- last episode when Illyria went from her Fred look to Illyria as she was punching the warlock

Biggest Tearjerker Moment
Buffy-- The finale of season 5
Angel- when Angel gets a call from the hospital in "Your Welcome" hell, I'm starting to tear up just thinking about it

Most Romantic Moment
Buffy-- In the second to last episode when Spike and Buffy are just sleeping on the bed
Angel-- When Angel went to meet Cordy at the end of Season 3 (but then everything went wrong)

Favorite Novel
I've only read one.. the one the summer after buffy kills the master

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Favorite Main Character

Buffy: Xander. The everyman. I related to him most of all.

Angel: I would have to say Wesley. He started out as comedy relief and then turned major bad-ass.

Favorite Supporting Character

Buffy: Probably Jonathan. Superstar is a gem.

Angel: I gotta go with Lindsey. He wasn't a cookie cutter "evil lawyer guy," he actually had some depth to him, and that made him interesting.

Favorite Single Appearence Character

Buffy: The Cheese Guy from Restless, hands down.

Angel: Hmmm...hard to say. I kinda wanna say the werewolf expert from Unleashed just because he sang "Jessie's Girl." :D

Favorite Reoccuring Villain

Buffy: Angelus. They did the character more justice on this show than they ever did on Angel.

Angel: Hmm...does Illyria count? She was never really a "hero," but after Shells she wasn't really a villain either. Maybe I'll go with the Beast, but he wasn't really that interesting, he just looked cool and made for good fight scenes.

Favorite Standalone Episode Villain

Buffy: Gentlemen from Hush, hands down.

Angel: Ratio. What a bad-ass.

Favorite Actor/Actress

Buffy: Anthony Stewart Head. Who knew an English librarian could be so cool?

Angel: Amy Acker. In three seasons, with just one (technically two) characters, she showed everyone that she's a damn fine actress.

Most Attractive Person

Buffy: Alyson Hannigan or Emma Watson.

Angel: Amy Acker or Charisma Carpenter.

Favorite Season

Buffy: Goodness...hard to say. It's a tie between Seasons 2 and 3, because those were two of my favorite story-arcs (Spike/Dru/Angelus and Faith/The Mayor).

Angel: Definitely a tie between Seasons 2 and 5. Season 2 was badass, and Season 5 revamped the show without making it suck.

Favorite Episode

Buffy: Definitely a three-way tie between Hush, The Body, and Once More, With Feeling. Hush was extremely innovative and damn creepy, The Body brings me to tears almost every time, and Once More, With Feeling reminds me why musicals rock.

Angel: Hmmm...it's really hard for this one. I say a tie between Are You Now or Have You Ever Been and Not Fade Away.

A Favorite Quote.

Too many to count.

Scariest Moment.

Buffy: I can't say that there were any moments that really scared me on Buffy.

Angel: See above.

Coolest Moment

Buffy: "There's not a person on the planet who can stop me."

"I'd like to test that theory."

Angel: "Let's go to work." -CLANG!- Credits. 'Nuff said...

...but there are a LOT of cool moments from the series.

Biggest Tearjerker Moment

Buffy: Pretty much everything from The Body, especially Anya's speech...also, the last few minutes of The Gift...mostly because of the AMAZING score.

Angel: Angel and Cordelia watching Doyle's video at the end of Hero, Angel watching Clockwork Connor from afar at the end of Home.

Most Romantic Moment

Buffy:

Angel: Every scene with Fred and Welsey from A Hole in the World.

Favorite Novel

I haven't really read any of them, so I'll go with the only one I've read all the way through: Tales of the Slayers, Volume 1.

[borateen]

Favorite Main Character
B: Zander, A: Wesley

Favorite Supporting Character
B: Jonathan, A: Electrical girl

Favorite Single Appearence Character
B: ?, A: Italian woman at Wolfram & Hart from Season 5 (this category was difficult because I couldn't recall many single-appearance characters)

Favorite Reoccuring Villain
B: Mayor Wilkins, A: Wolfram & Hart as a whole

Favorite Standalone Episode Villain
I tend to forget most of these

Favorite Actor/Actress
B: Anthony Stewart Head, A: Alexis Denisoff

Most Attractive Person
B: Charisma Carpenter, A: Charisma Carpenter

Favorite Season
B: 3, A: 5

Favorite Episode
B: Buffy the Musical, A: Series Finale

A Favorite Quote.
B: Too tough to choose, A: "I get to slay the Dragon."

Scariest Moment.
I don't think anything really scared me.

Coolest Moment
B: The entire graduating class ready to take on the mayor, A: The last shot in the finale with the survivors walking toward the demon army.

Biggest Tearjerker Moment
B: The very end of "I Was Made to Love You," when Buffy finds out her mom is dead, plus the first half of the next episode, "The Body." A: "A Hole in the World"

Most Romantic Moment
B: Angel giving Buffy the ring, A: Fred and Wesley FINALLY hooking up

[Quicksilver]

The last episode of Angel was awesome...but left me unfulfilled...are we supposed to just assume they all died? Wesley's death was phenomenal though...one of the best scenes in Buffy or Angel history IMO