The Difference Between a Good Super-Hero Story and a Great One

[PatrickG]

Maybe it's my training as an actor but I have to say:

Motivation.

The heroes need to want something other than just beating the bad guys or saving the world.

And the bad guys need motivation other than just beating the good guys or taking over the world.

Beyond that, a human touch is nice. I mean beyond this blog profile style thinking that just tells us what a hero's favorite book, movie or CD is.

Maybe Clark Kent gets Ma's pie on his necktie. Maybe Bruce Wayne gets annoying calls from telemarketers. Maybe Flash gets hounded by paparazzi.

Or, even better, maybe it's something deeper. Maybe the hero takes a moment to go "wow" at what they're seeing. Maybe it reminds them of an old nursery rhyme. Maybe they break out laughing inappropriately.

Maybe Captain America takes the day off to chat with a dying veteran at the local diner. Maybe Spider-man tries to carry out a dying woman's wish to see her estranged children. Maybe the Fantastic Four stop off between dimensions for eggcream and a few ballpark hot dogs in an alternate New York.

These things don't make a story. They aren't essential.

But, IMO, they're what separate "good" from "great".

[Waffles]

I'm not sure it's that simple. Motivation helps, but alone it can not carry a story to greatness. I think, as an actor, you show the weakness in this argument. An actor thinks of his objectives, but that is just one small bit of the puzzle. A specific character's motivation is small part of the whole. You're pigeon holing it to depend on motivation when I think it's much grander then that. Motivation indicates a character and I think a great character alone does not make a story great. There are thematic issues to consider as well as the motivation of one character. The why is important, but you need much more then that to make a great story as opposed to a great character moment. A great story is much harder to peg then that. It needs to be complete.

To me greatness is something intangible. I'm not sure greatness can be planned. Greatness is something that lasts. It stands the test of time and carries weight, regardless of the context. A great story is a great story is a great story is a great story. Always and forever. Greatness is when you're 15 and a story changes you. 30 years later you pick it up and the same story hits you again, but in a new way. Greatness evolves without changing a word. It gives you the grand scope and a tiny peak all at once. Greatness gives itself entirely to you. The only limit to a great story is the person that reads it. That's what a great story is to me. It's impossible to define and it takes years to recognize.

[steeler80]

I tend to agree with Waffles that greatness isn't something you can necessarily plan--it's a lot of different elements coming together in the proper way at the proper time.

However, I think all of the great stories share common characteristics and, in my very humble opinion, I think one of the most important characteristic is theme-- what is the story about? Great comic stories are the same as any great literature--what are the forces that move under the waters of the story, that shape the story and the symbolisms therein?

You can have a good comic story of X hero stops X villian because X villian was up to nastiness just as you can have a good beach book of X couple comes together despite many travails. Both of these premises can, and have, made many a decent story. But I doubt many of them reach the level of greatness. Your story has to have more meat on it to reach that plateau.

[Charles RB]

Maybe the Fantastic Four stop off between dimensions for eggcream and a few ballpark hot dogs in an alternate New York.

The Fantastic Four going out happened quite a bit in Mark Waid's issues. Not essential, but it's fun seeing Ben & Sue going to the cinema.

"Previews. How many innaworlds this time?"

[PatrickG]

However, I think all of the great stories share common characteristics and, in my very humble opinion, I think one of the most important characteristic is theme-- what is the story about? Great comic stories are the same as any great literature--what are the forces that move under the waters of the story, that shape the story and the symbolisms therein?


Don't know if you've read Alan Moore's essays on this but that's more or less his view. I think he argues that comics are virtually the only form of literature that can get away with telling stories that have no theme and when writers jump on this cheat too often, it shows.

But... I guess my thoughts above weren't so much about what the keys to a creating a great story are... But if you take a mediocre story and go through what I suggested in the first post, I think you can essentially dress up a mediocre story as a great one basically just by giving it a greater feeling of depth and reality than just a 22 page slugfest.

And I love Waid's reverse calorie ice cream in FF and the story where Human Torch wound up naked in the kiddie pool and all the various funny little human stories he does.

There's a phrase I have to describe what Moore, Waid, Morrison, Millar, Peyer, Joe Kelly, Joe Casey and a select few in super-hero comics do. I don't know what to call it besides "super-hero poetry".

This, to me, means that a scene or line of dialogue works out into a perfectly balanced little unit that reminds us how cool or funny a particular super-power or strange situation is.

"I can hear amoebas crawl and watch electrons in their endless race around the nucleii of hydrogen atoms..."

"Sorry, London bridge was falling down. No. Really."

"I smell magic."

I really think that enough stuff like this inserted into an otherwise average story could make it worth reading strictly for the concept entertainment value.

Not saying it replaces starting with a good story... But if a good story is a perfect three layer cake layered in decorative butter cream icing, the right poetic flare and details are like really good cookie dough.

[Static-Pulse]

Maybe it's my training as an actor but I have to say: Motivation.Maybe it's my being a programmer, but I think it's execution. Enginehead will forever be my favorite mini-series -- until "Batgirl: Bondage Romp" gets published -- because of one line:Three thousand cats buys you two minutes.Through half the series, Enginehead didn't know why he was putting cats in trees, and in the last issue we learn it's to keep Superman busy for two minutes -- to put him slightly behind schedule. To me, that one line was what changed an already good series into the coolest hack ever performed in the DCU.

When you program, it's easy to just hammer out code to do something. When you understand it, though, and the hammering becomes elegant, and you reduce the code by half... It's a beautiful thing. So, when I read a comic, for me, the difference in good and great is strictly in the elegance of execution.

[Cam63]

The differance is like comparing a Conan the Barbarian story written by Robert E. Howard to a Conan story written by anyone else.

The guy just knew how to write a fucking good story with characters you gave a shit about.

[CaptMagellan]

The differance is like comparing a Conan the Barbarian story written by Robert E. Howard to a Conan story written by anyone else.

The guy just knew how to write a fucking good story with characters you gave a shit about.

*wipes tear away*. That was just beautiful man.

I think that where *great* is concerned, it's a combination of all of these things and probably a few things that haven't been brought up yet.

Clear motivation across the board helps us understand and empathize with all the characters.

Interesting characterization helps us believe in them a bit more and when done in the right amounts provides a really fun balance between intimate time with the characters and epic events.

Execution provides a coolness factor that can go beyond just good pacing and narrative drive.

Also, we shouldn't forget the twin necessities of visual storytelling and wordsmithing to raise the piece up.

All of these, and probably more, contribute to any story going from good to great.

[Cam63]

No worries, mate.

[Lunar Daydreamer]

When I first got back into comics in the 90's, the book which really nailed for me how good comics could be was Mark Waid's Flash. An absolute tour de force of imagination and above all great heart. Terminal Velocity lead me to going back to getting Flash: Year one and everythign that lead up to it ... and beyond that I was utterly, utterly invested. I *cared*

[PatrickG]

I'll go one further.

No disrespect intended to Baron and company but Mark's investment was so personal and he seemed to have so much freedom, he just totally shaped the character.

If not for Mark Waid, I think Linda Park would be married to Argus and Barry Allen would be the Flash again. I credit Waid with guiding Wally from a guy who didn't have a grasp on the Flash role or a unique claim to the spot... And transforming him into a mature, competent hero worthy of a seat at the big table along with J'Onn, Diana, Clark and Bruce.

Wally would probably have become a psycho super-villain if not for Waid's influence.

Look at Hawk. Look at Hal Jordan. Look at Guy Gardner. Wally was going down the same path. I think the speed force, his relationship with Linda, his maturity, his relationship with Barry's legacy, his role as leader of an army of Flashes... These things made him his own man and saved him from the fate of being killed, replaced, going crazy... Yes, he's died. Yes, he's been replaced. But he hasn't been removed from the context where he works... Yet.

But if Wally had gone the direction of his peers at DC, I envision a Flash comic starring a grim, edgy, mullet-wearing, divorced Barry Allen with Wally as the new Reverse Flash or something equally alien to the status quo we've come to accept

[Lunar Daydreamer]

John's never really did much witht he book thereafter in my opinion., Sure a different spin, a different cast and an aphasis on retolling the rogues ... but I missed the Wally & Linda that i knew, I missed pushing the aspect of the speed force to its extreme, the sheer level of imagination of what the character and book could be about...the way mark pushed the boundaries of love, of romance and entralled me, enchanted me, excited me. Ive never caran to a comic store on my lunch and read a comic book straight from leaving the store before. Happened so many times on Waid's Flash. I'd love it if he had something to say with the character again.

[Static-Pulse]

John's never really did much witht he book thereafter in my opinion.What you said, but replace Flash with Impulse.

[comic_lover]

Maybe it's my training as an actor but I have to say:

Motivation.

The heroes need to want something other than just beating the bad guys or saving the world.

And the bad guys need motivation other than just beating the good guys or taking over the world.

Beyond that, a human touch is nice. I mean beyond this blog profile style thinking that just tells us what a hero's favorite book, movie or CD is.

Maybe Clark Kent gets Ma's pie on his necktie. Maybe Bruce Wayne gets annoying calls from telemarketers. Maybe Flash gets hounded by paparazzi.

Or, even better, maybe it's something deeper. Maybe the hero takes a moment to go "wow" at what they're seeing. Maybe it reminds them of an old nursery rhyme. Maybe they break out laughing inappropriately.

Maybe Captain America takes the day off to chat with a dying veteran at the local diner. Maybe Spider-man tries to carry out a dying woman's wish to see her estranged children. Maybe the Fantastic Four stop off between dimensions for eggcream and a few ballpark hot dogs in an alternate New York.

These things don't make a story. They aren't essential.

But, IMO, they're what separate "good" from "great".Can't say I agree with you old boy.In my opinion,what makes a great story ( aside from an engaging writer of course ) is a personal sacrifice through adversity,which greatly enhances character depth.There is nothing more moving than to read a story where a character is pushed beyond his/her personal limits and has to make a sacrifice for the greater good against overwhelming odds. Let us look at some of what can be viewed as the Greatest Comic Book Stories Ever.
The Dark Knight Returns
Watchmen
Kingdom Come
The Death of Gwen Stacy
The Phoenix Saga
Crisis On Infinite Earths
PAD's First Hulk Run
Bryne's Run On Fantastic Four...etc


See what they all have in common ? ;)

[comic_lover]

John's never really did much witht he book thereafter in my opinion., Sure a different spin, a different cast and an aphasis on retolling the rogues ... but I missed the Wally & Linda that i knew, I missed pushing the aspect of the speed force to its extreme, the sheer level of imagination of what the character and book could be about...the way mark pushed the boundaries of love, of romance and entralled me, enchanted me, excited me. Ive never caran to a comic store on my lunch and read a comic book straight from leaving the store before. Happened so many times on Waid's Flash. I'd love it if he had something to say with the character again.Johns lent a Silver Age feel to The Flash book after Waid left.I agree that he didn't push the envelope,but his stories were well told and always a fun read.

[Lunar Daydreamer]

What you said, but replace Flash with Impulse.

The Waid / Ramos Impulse was an absolute treat, that sat side by side with Flash of any given month. Kind of the crunch berries to the captain crunch :)

[Tad Sivana]

Can't say I agree with you old boy.In my opinion,what makes a great story ( aside from an engaging writer of course ) is a personal sacrifice through adversity,which greatly enhances character depth.There is nothing more moving than to read a story where a character is pushed beyond his/her personal limits and has to make a sacrifice for the greater good against overwhelming odds. Let us look at some of what can be viewed as the Greatest Comic Book Stories Ever.
The Dark Knight Returns
Watchmen
Kingdom Come
The Death of Gwen Stacy
The Phoenix Saga
Crisis On Infinite Earths
PAD's First Hulk Run
Bryne's Run On Fantastic Four...etc
See what they all have in common ? ;)

This would be a subjective and highly personal choice for what makes a great comic.
I dunno about Crisis on Infinite Earths, either, but I'd add:

Spiderman's Quest for the serum to save Aunt May
The Coming of Galactus
Who Is Donna Troy?
The Death of Menthor
The Legion Vs. The Sun Eater
Marvels

And I could go on a long time. All these had characterization up the wazoo!
Heck, Shooter invented a whole squad of unique super-villains just to juice up that one story! There was a clear plot in each case, a beginning, dramatic developments and an end...or at least as much of an end as comics ever get. Stories like 'Who Is Donna Troy' and evern 'Marvels' are really much more character studies than action plots, but they still have those elements of the 'well-made-comic'.