Worst owner in professional sports...

[Guts/Batman]

The owners who don't attempt to make their team better. Who is the worst owner in professional sports?

I would go with the Bill Bidwell of the Arizona Cardinals to tie with the LA Clippers owner something Sterling.

[Brian Cronin]

I gotta go with Carl Pohland.

Dude wanted to eliminate his OWN TEAM!!!

-Brian

[Guts/Batman]

Can't believe I missed him. lol

[Punchy]

I'm going to have to go with Sterling.

The fact is, he makes money on his team year after year. He doesn't care about making them better. The formula that he has is profitable so he just sticks with it.

A lot of Clipper fans here in LA are looking at this offseason as a real test for him. I think they have over $10 million to work with. They need a shooting gaurd to compliment Brand and Maggette. If they sign one it might be a turning point for the team.

[Guts/Batman]

That is almost criminal how Sterling turns a profit.

[Deathstroke]

Donald Sterling of the Clippers is definitely high on the list.

I'd say the guy who owns the Boston Bruins as well.

[cable guy]

Without a doubt the Phillies ownership.

Bill Giles represents the share holders that own the team, and they don't give a shit about winning.

[J Dog]

Mr. Sterling (LA Clippers)
George Steinbrenner (New York Yankees)
The guy who owns the Tampa Bay Devil Rays
The guy who moved the Indianapolis Ice to Topeka (we are still mad about that here)

[Shellhead]

The guy who moved the Indianapolis Ice to Topeka (we are still mad about that here)

No problems with Bob Irsay?

[Punchy]

The guy who moved the Indianapolis Ice to Topeka (we are still mad about that here)

Holy crap! When did that happen?

I used to love going to Ice games. I remember they'd have college student night and you could get in for like $5, it was great.

[dougputhoff]

I have to go with all the Moron owners in Major League Baseball who refuse to install a salary cap and keep electing Bud (Light) Selig as Commissioner.

[StoneGold]

Well, she ain't anymore, but remember Marge Schott?

[dougputhoff]

Well, she ain't anymore, but remember Marge Schott?

At least the Reds contended regularly and won a world championship when she owned the team. Nowadays they just stink like Pete Rose's game-used socks.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The San Fransico 49ers: Denise DeBartilo York and her husband now run the team and by god...have they fucked things up bad. Its so bad that Eddie DeBartilo begged his sister to sell the team back after his Gambling In Lousinana nearly got him put In jail.

York wouldn't sell the team back and proceeded to just grind the team Into the ground with bad personal decisions and the unwilligness to buy a new Staduim for the 49ers.

When the NFL President , Paul Taglibue suggests you should sell the damn team to Oracle CEO Bernie Ellison than...wow. Whats that say about you when the NFL wants you to sell a team ?

John York currently has hired Mike Nolen to turn things around. But York's the same guy who told Coach Dennis Erickson 2 weeks before the season ended that he and his staff had a job next season and that Injuries ruined a possible medicore year. ( York would later say even with Injuries he expected Erikson to have an 8-8 year, talk about wild expectations !! )

Bill Bidwell:Owner of the Arizona Cardinals: Bidwell Is long known for his greed. He'd rather save a buck than spend on someone. Or move a team for $$$$$

The fans In St.Louis stuck by the Cardinals and the fans cared. But Bidwell recieved a huge offer to move to Pheonix and he skipped In 1988. Then he would proceede to just make that team..suck.

By the mid 90's Bidwell was told by the Arizona taxpayers that they wouldn't touch a new staduim unless he spent money. You know It had to hurt him but he started specing cash on Free Agents and Draft picks. Right now he's assembling a young team under Dennis Green and Green will make Bidwell spend money. Thats the only way he'd take a job I remember him saying.


Mike Brown : Owner Bengals. : Mike Brown owns the Bengals and Mike Brown owns a team that hasn't qualified for a damn playoff game for 15 seasons.

And Its all due to Mike Brown's bad personal and bad spending decisions. Brown at one time had the smallest scouting staff In the NFL. Notice the trend...small scouting staff and no Playoffs ?

In fact ex-players would just talk about how cheap Mike Brown was as an owner. That the Practice Facility sucked and was 20 years outdated. That the Locker rooms were dingy and so small that the coaching staff and players were cramped.

Finally after 13 seasons and an Internet campaign called : www.mikebrownsucks.com (check It out) , Brown was forced to give up his GM role. He also got a stern and angry warning from Paul Taglibue who told Brown : " Your team has obvious needs. Chief among them Is a new field. This Is a warning , If a team plays another week on a field I saw then I will fine you ! "


Taglibue had saw a game where the field was all too hell and reports were that Brown knew about It all week and wouldn't have the field fixed. This pissed Paul off and he sent that out to papers. I nearly choked as he warned Mike Brown that changes were needed and advised he may want to hire a General Manager later. Brown would have to when he signed Marvin Lewis In 2003.

[soda]

SuperCWfan1-

at least bidwell and brown have learned a little.

Denny Green will have the cardinals in good shape this year. They had an awesome draft, got help in FA, and have constructed a respectable NFL defense and a pretty good running game (with JJ Arrington). I have the cardinals winning the NFC west this year, and when Bidwell sees how much MORE money he's going to make pushing a winner, I think he'll leave Denny Green to run the franchise. The cards are on the right track.

Ditto the bengals. Brown messed up, over and over again, forever, but he's finally found the right man to run his team in Marvin Lewis, as long as he does what he's been doing for a while now, gives Marvin total control and gets out of the way, the bengals will compete sooner rather than later.

John York, though, my goodness is that dude clueless. Nolan might turn the niners around in time, but there's no evidence that Nolan has total personel authority in san fran, and even if he does, there's no evidence that Nolan is competent. Drafting Alex Smith was a mistake, the niners got no help in FA this offseason, and things look as bad, or worse, than they did last year, with no hope in sight. At least the bengals and cardinals have guys running the team who know what they're doing. Right now, York is the worst owner in the NFL, and he's tied with DTS for the worst owner in all of sports.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

SuperCWfan1-

at least bidwell and brown have learned a little.

Denny Green will have the cardinals in good shape this year. They had an awesome draft, got help in FA, and have constructed a respectable NFL defense and a pretty good running game (with JJ Arrington). I have the cardinals winning the NFC west this year, and when Bidwell sees how much MORE money he's going to make pushing a winner, I think he'll leave Denny Green to run the franchise. The cards are on the right track.

Ditto the bengals. Brown messed up, over and over again, forever, but he's finally found the right man to run his team in Marvin Lewis, as long as he does what he's been doing for a while now, gives Marvin total control and gets out of the way, the bengals will compete sooner rather than later.

John York, though, my goodness is that dude clueless. Nolan might turn the niners around in time, but there's no evidence that Nolan has total personel authority in san fran, and even if he does, there's no evidence that Nolan is competent. Drafting Alex Smith was a mistake, the niners got no help in FA this offseason, and things look as bad, or worse, than they did last year, with no hope in sight. At least the bengals and cardinals have guys running the team who know what they're doing. Right now, York is the worst owner in the NFL, and he's tied with DTS for the worst owner in all of sports.


York has screwed up. He has a decent Offense with Alex Smith at QB. They have Brandon Loyd at WR now paired with Johnnie Morton. At TE , they have Eric Johnson who really will be Smith's favorite target . The 49ers love running TE Routes and a new rookie QB always will look at a TE 1st In an offense.


Its all not bad. Injuries killed the 49ers and the Defense never quit last year. Even with backups It played really beyond what they could do. The Offense has Rattey and Dorsey whop made too many mistakes and couldn't pull the trigger.

Also the 49ers have had to battle bad Salary Cap decisions the past few years and had to strip the team down a lot. Do you honestly think they wanted to cut Jeff Garcia ? No....that was a Salary Cap move. As why they haven't taken a huge leap Into Free Agency.

[Smarty Jones]

Donald T. Sterling of the Los Angeles Clippers, without question. Sterling is not even interested in fielding a competitive team. I'm surprised the NBA has never approached -- if not strongly suggested to -- him about selling or dispersing the franchise.

[Captain Trips]

I have watched that meddling idiot Daniel Snyder throw his money around to "all-star" players and coaches with nothing to show for it. Why the hell did he hire Steve Spurrier? The Redskins have won 17 games in 3 years! They haven't made the playoffs since 1999! I wish it was possible to fire an owner.

[J Dog]

Holy crap! When did that happen?

I used to love going to Ice games. I remember they'd have college student night and you could get in for like $5, it was great.

That happened in 2003. The owner, a big weasel, took our Ice to Topeka & made them into the "Topeka Tarantulas". We now have a USHL team called the "Indiana Ice". They do suprisingly good for an amatuer team.

But, what goes around, comes around, as the Tarantulas folded a year later.

The USHL Ice still do College Night as well as other events. Plus, remember the "Pack the House" Night, that filled up Conseco Fieldhouse AND broke a record in USHL attendence.

[J Dog]

Oh, the Indianapolis Ice was in the Central Hockey League.

[Guts/Batman]

What did Topeka offer him to entice him to move the team from Indianapolis?

[Dennis K]

The owner of the New York Knicks

[LtMarvel]

The Royals are caught in a loop: Team won't spend money until team has a chance to start winning. The team doesn't have a chance to start winning until the team spends some money.

[Knight Lancer]

George Steinbrenner (New York Yankees)here)

I can't see how Steinbrenner would considered one of the worst bosses.

The man genuinely cares about winning, going to ridiculous lengths to do so.

Maybe he cares a bit too much, but that's always better than caring too little.

[Paradox]

Multiple generations of the Ford family HAVE to be mentioned here. The Lions have stunk my whole life, and bad hirings and owner interference have had a lot to do with it.

[hoffmandu]

Nobody's mentioned Al Davis? The Raiders are the graveyard of the NFL right now. Which I guess makes Moss...........Christ?

[Puma]

The Yorks, SF 49ers, for all the reason already listed.

Pater Magowan for catering around Barry Bonds to such a degree that no new talent was brought in, decent players left, and the roster is full of over the hill has beens.

[Nick Soapdish]

Geez! These resurrections confuse me.

I was particularly confused by the complaint about the results with Snyder (although I agree that he's not an especially good owner, but he's learning to be more of a Steinbrenner and less of a Al Davis gone senile).

[LtMarvel]

Can we agree that winning the league's championships disqualifies the owner from being considered "worst"?

[Dreadstar]

Well, she ain't anymore, but remember Marge Schott?

At least the Reds contended regularly and won a world championship when she owned the team. Nowadays they just stink like Pete Rose's game-used socks.

Put her in the category of "worst personalities." She did OK as an owner. If being a miscreant made you a poor owner, the Yankees would have sucked for the past 35 years.

[jessecuster3]

With all due respect people, formerly Bill Wirtz takes this title hands down.

Let's see:
He would never televise home games, no matter what.
Allowed Bobbly Hull to leave the organization and become an all-star with New York.
Traded or gave up the rights to: Dominik Hasek, Ed Belfour, Chris Chelios(to Detroit, even!), Denis Savard, and the most famous and respected of them all Phil Esposito.
Under him the team has not won a Stanley Cup since 1961, the longest drought in the NHL.
In 2004, ESPN ranked the Blackhawks as the worst franchise in sports.


An entire book has been written about what an awful owner he was.

And this is all without discussing what a ruthless and evil businessman he was.

There was a party upon his death.

[LtMarvel]

If you are going historical, there was no franchise more pathetic than the NY Rangers. They spent decades without a championship despite there only being 6 teams for half that period.

[jessecuster3]

If you are going historical, there was no franchise more pathetic than the NY Rangers. They spent decades without a championship despite there only being 6 teams for half that period.

Its not that historical he only died in the last year.

[J Dog]

You also can't forget Peter Angelos (Will Leitch's pick as the worst owner and had a chapter devoted to him) and William Clay Ford as the worst owners in sports.

[Serik]

The new owner of the Seattle Supersonics, Clay Bennett. He bought the team with the sole purpose of moving it to his hometown of Oklahoma City. Even when a group of Seattle businessmen/investors wanted to buy the team back and throw $200 million towards a new arena, he refused to sell. The team also has a lease with Key Arena that expires in 2010; Bennett wants out early.

Oklahoma City voters agreed to spend big bucks on improvements to lure the team there. Seattleites, on the other hand, voted to heavily restrict how public money can be spent on new sports venues, thereby diminishing the possibility of a new arena within the city limits.

Not that I care; private business shouldn't receive massive handouts from taxpayers. And Seattle already has way too many stadiums within its city limits (the Seahawks and Mariner stadiums standing side-by-side are a monument to excess and stupidity if you ask me).

[Athena Bast]

Harold Ballard and the Toronto Maple Leafs

Anyone who owned the Montreal Expos now the Washington Nationals.

[J Dog]

Harold Ballard and the Toronto Maple Leafs

Anyone who owned the Montreal Expos now the Washington Nationals.

I think it's the Expos guy who decided to punish everyone by banning all Expos games on local TV that deserves the most blame. I think he's now the owner of the Marlins, a team that has a fire sale every time they do something good.

And, about that topic I said, oh, 3 years ago, it's all fine now. The USHL team is doing great, and the Topeka team crapped out after one year. They no longer exist.

[Chino]

The guy who owns the Tampa Bay Devil Rays


Huh, why? Not every expansion team wins right away dude. You guys traded for Kazmir, picked up Crawfords options, Brought in Pena, Iwamura from Japan, traded for Garza and have maybe the best prospect in all of baseball in Longoria coming up. Don't forget about Upton, Shields and a new stadium in the works.

What's not to like?

[Nick Soapdish]

Huh, why? Not every expansion team wins right away dude. You guys traded for Kazmir, picked up Crawfords options, Brought in Pena, Iwamura from Japan, traded for Garza and have maybe the best prospect in all of baseball in Longoria coming up. Don't forget about Upton, Shields and a new stadium in the works.

What's not to like?

The post that you're responding to is from 3 years ago.

But I do agree. Their lack of success (last place every year, right?) only points to the owner's incompetence and there are a lot of owners that have a much longer record to compare.

[stealthwise]

With all due respect people, formerly Bill Wirtz takes this title hands down.

Let's see:
He would never televise home games, no matter what.
Allowed Bobbly Hull to leave the organization and become an all-star with New York.
Traded or gave up the rights to: Dominik Hasek, Ed Belfour, Chris Chelios(to Detroit, even!), Denis Savard, and the most famous and respected of them all Phil Esposito.
Under him the team has not won a Stanley Cup since 1961, the longest drought in the NHL.
In 2004, ESPN ranked the Blackhawks as the worst franchise in sports.


An entire book has been written about what an awful owner he was.

And this is all without discussing what a ruthless and evil businessman he was.

There was a party upon his death.

DING DING DING!

Seriously, he sucked ass. The poster below you mentions the Rangers having a big drought, but Chicago won almost as few cups in that same span, and were just a terrible team with Hull, Mikita and Esposito.

I'm so glad that Rocky Wirtz has taken over from his father's disgusting power trip.

[Phrozen]

DING DING DING!

Seriously, he sucked ass. The poster below you mentions the Rangers having a big drought, but Chicago won almost as few cups in that same span, and were just a terrible team with Hull, Mikita and Esposito.

I'm so glad that Rocky Wirtz has taken over from his father's disgusting power trip.

I would of thought that there would be a line of Chicago pucks fans waiting for their change to dance on Wirtz grave.

[kmeyers]

UFC's Dana White.

He pays lower level fighters almost nothing, signs them to contracts where he basically owns them, their likeness, and everything about them.

He treats his top money making fighters so bad that they are leaving as soon as they can get out of their contracts, now that MMA has gotten more popular and they have other options.

Tito Ortiz was in the UFC before Dana White was around, and had some of the highest paid Pay Per Views for the Dana White UFC era, and Dana White CONSTANTLY badmouths the guy.

Randy Couture, another top draw, current UFC Heavyweight Champ, ambassador for the sport of MMA, and MMA legend, just walked away from the UFC because he felt like Dana White was treating him so badly.

Andrei Arlovski, former UFC champ had to sit on the sidelines losing thousands of dollars in endorsement deals, because he didn't want to re-negotiate his contract on Dana White's terms, so he was shelved for a year, until they had to finally give him the last fight on his contract...Then that fight wasn't even broadcast.

Now Tim Sylvia another former UFC Champ just left too.

Plus, Dana White just doesn't conduct himself as a businessman. He curses, all the time, and talks shit on fighters any chance he gets. He's just generally a bad, petty person.

[stealthwise]

kmeyers, I'll see your Dana White and raise you a Vince McMahon.

[kmeyers]

kmeyers, I'll see your Dana White and raise you a Vince McMahon.

Ha!

Ok, I don't follow Pro Wrestling, but you win.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Al Davis is the type of owner who if you were a fan of the team you'd just wanna choke the guy. He'll always do the stupied things that cost him. In fact lets run down the Al Davis list and why the Oakland Raiders will always be in the shitter with him.


1. Coaching changes : The last good coach the Raiders had was Jon Gruden. And what made Jon Gruden successful was that he knew the West Coast offense system and installed it on the Raiders. It worked very well and the Raiders won pretty well under him. Its true they lost in the playoffs....but everyone knew the team was close. They had a 1-2 season gap left where the old players would play and the young ones....and with Gruden they had "It".

Of course what sin did Jon Gruden do that made him and Al Davis not get along ?


He didn't believe in the deep bomb as much. Gruden was into running a short passing offense and chewing up the cloak. The whole CHUCK IT DEEP down field was not his offense. So when Al Davis lost games he'd react like he knew the game "FUCK JON GRUDEN !! HE SHOULD HAVE TOSSED IT DEEP 50+ YARDS TO TIM BROWN !"

Another coach who was fired for installing a short passing offense with the Raiders was Mike White. He too installed the West Coast offense and he too was fired after 2 seasons. Because he wouldn't throw DEEP BOMBS . Even after his firing White joked he was fired because Al Davis wanted to call the offense . Its just that Al knows jack and shit about NFL offenses now.

As soon as White and Gruden left , Al was like a kid...back came that deep vertical passing game. Back came THE RAIDERS BALL , and back came the losses in time.


2. Name Players:

Dan Snyder finally realized his mistake it seems. You fall in love with a "Name Player". The Raiders since Free Agency started have done this. They would sign SuperBowl MVP's , hot NFL Free Agents and all to big deals. And 9 times outta 10....the career was over. In fact heres a list...

Darren Woodson: After getting a bunch of Int's in a Superbowl and being named MVP of the game , Woodson went to the Raiders where he did JACK SHIT. He was cut seasons later after doing nothing to earn whatever big pay day Al Davis gave him.

Jeff George : The Chiefs were in contention for George in 1997. It was either gonna be Elvis Grbac or George. Al Davis found out , flew George in and handed him a huge $$$ deal. George imploded 2 seasons in.

Desmond Howard : Perhaps one of the most fucked up craziest stories is this. Howard was a glorified wash out as a WR and became a threat at KR/PR. He even won a MVP in a Superbowl for his returning. So naturally ....Al Davis overpaid him and watched him implode and do nothing.

Warren Sapp: Remember when he was a force ? Well he came in and wasn;t a force at all. He retired as many will go "He left Tampa for the Raiders ? What was he thinking ?"

Randy Moss: The DEEP PASSING GAME was supposed to return. Instead it didn;t and Moss watched as various QB's came in and never established what a Tom Brady did in 1 season.

So with him over paying ex-Superbowl MVP's , former 1st rd draft picks , and hot Free Agents...based on NAME PLAYERS ...its part of the reason the Raiders suck.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

kmeyers, I'll see your Dana White and raise you a Vince McMahon.

Hey , Vince just handed a $20 million dollar pay day to a boxer....now that had to really break Vince's heart.

[jka12002]

im gonna have to agree with the earlier poster:

http://getsbybuckner.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/vince-mcmahon.jpg

[kmeyers]

Hey , Vince just handed a $20 million dollar pay day to a boxer....now that had to really break Vince's heart.

That was the most horrible, fake ass "wrestling match" I've had the misfortune to see. A friend made me watch that nonesense.

Judging from crowd reactions, they didn't appreciate it either. I feel bad for the people who paid for that, and I hope he lost money on this bullshit. Especially since he's trying to capitalize on the MMA explosion.

I want to see Anderson Silva beat up Floyd Mayweather legitimately...But once again, Dana White stands in the way, and is against it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

im gonna have to agree with the earlier poster:

http://getsbybuckner.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/vince-mcmahon.jpg

In order to be a bad owner you gotta suck and lose a lot. And well....Vince has pretty much rolled over his compitition and owns a Wrestling Channel where he shows all those who opposed him. Since he owns it all.

Sure he's a dick. But he's a successful smart dick.

That was the most horrible, fake ass "wrestling match" I've had the misfortune to see. A friend made me watch that nonesense.

Judging from crowd reactions, they didn't appreciate it either. I feel bad for the people who paid for that, and I hope he lost money on this bullshit. Especially since he's trying to capitalize on the MMA explosion.

I want to see Anderson Silva beat up Floyd Mayweather legitimately...But once again, Dana White stands in the way, and is against it.

The wrestling fans are pretty much not believing Floyd Mayweather stood a chance in holy hell in a real wrestling match against Show. They blew it in the booking and fans detested Mayweather since he needed 20 bodyguard flunkies and shit to look tough. While , Big Show came out alone...

Another thing that the WWE orginally wanted and what Shane McMahon wanted to do was get Oscar De La Hoya and Mayweather for a tag match. De La Hoya would team with Rey Mysterio and Mayweather with Big Show. The 2 would rarely get in ring and if they did...do a few basic wrestling moves in the tag match at Wrestlemania.

Hoya didn't wanna do it. And said no. So the next plan was to make it Big Show vs Rey Mysterio & Floyd Mayweather. Then , Mysterio got injured and tore a arm muscle or tendon...and that put him on the shelf...so they went with what we saw.

Which sucked as I agree. But they likely lured a 100,000-200,000 extra PPV Buys like they wanted for Wrestlemania.

[kmeyers]

In order to be a bad owner you gotta suck and lose a lot. And well....Vince has pretty much rolled over his compitition and owns a Wrestling Channel where he shows all those who opposed him. Since he owns it all.

Sure he's a dick. But he's a successful smart dick.



The wrestling fans are pretty much not believing Floyd Mayweather stood a chance in holy hell in a real wrestling match against Show. They blew it in the booking and fans detested Mayweather since he needed 20 bodyguard flunkies and shit to look tough. While , Big Show came out alone...

Ok, see, this is where I call bullshit. Did you ever seriously believe that any of this was real? If Big Show wanted to, Mayweather would be dead.

I find it insulting that Larry King, and several talk shows treat this as legitimate. Are people really that fucking stupid to not know that this is a totally staged "performance?"[/QUOTE]

Another thing that the WWE orginally wanted and what Shane McMahon wanted to do was get Oscar De La Hoya and Mayweather for a tag match. De La Hoya would team with Rey Mysterio and Mayweather with Big Show. The 2 would rarely get in ring and if they did...do a few basic wrestling moves in the tag match at Wrestlemania.

Hoya didn't wanna do it. And said no. So the next plan was to make it Big Show vs Rey Mysterio & Floyd Mayweather. Then , Mysterio got injured and tore a arm muscle or tendon...and that put him on the shelf...so they went with what we saw.

Which sucked as I agree. But they likely lured a 100,000-200,000 extra PPV Buys like they wanted for Wrestlemania.

Well, it seems De La Hoya is the only intellegent person in this sad situation.

[stealthwise]

I wasn't talking about Vince McMahon from a "financial success" standpoint, but more from a "he's a horrible human being who should die of Cancer of the Gonorrhea of the AIDS," given how he's treated his current and former (and both) employees.

But if you want to talk about how much money he's made, may I point out to you a few of the blunders you're well aware of:

- XFL - Bled money and was the worst football venture ever.

- Invasion angle - Had he not been cheap from the get-go, he could STILL be milking WCW vs WWF today, instead, he killed all the heat it had within three months.

- HHH @##%ing a mannequin. Yeah, it probably didn't cost him that much, but what a stupid, stupid idea.

[jka12002]

Well WWE isnt gonna last that long unless they:

1. Get new owner ship and restaff

and 2. Reboot the entire WWE franchise

vince makes the storylines, the writers dont make it of the top of thier heads

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Ok, see, this is where I call bullshit. Did you ever seriously believe that any of this was real? If Big Show wanted to, Mayweather would be dead.

In order to sell a wrestling match...the general fanbase has gotta buy into the charactres. Be it a bad ass heel or a good guy. And can back up what they do.

Its like selling a ticket to an adventure movie. If the good guy or bad isn't believable as a threat its gonna suck. And Floyd Mayweather sucked in the bad guy way here.

I find it insulting that Larry King, and several talk shows treat this as legitimate. Are people really that fucking stupid to not know that this is a totally staged "performance?"


I think they at the company laid it out...its Sports Enertainment and it being Wrestlemania weekend you saw the selljob there. I'm sure Larry King and the general audiance who watch...know its fake.I barely watched it...to be honest. I did watch the next night when Larry had Jessie Ventura on and he really was a good guest and l laughed when he joked "Jesus Larry ...at your age and doing backflips off the top rope ?"

Well, it seems De La Hoya is the only intellegent person in this sad situation.

No...Mayweather is the smartest man. He just made himself $20 million dollars and as he said "Got more TV exposure than ever..."

I wasn't talking about Vince McMahon from a "financial success" standpoint, but more from a "he's a horrible human being who should die of Cancer of the Gonorrhea of the AIDS," given how he's treated his current and former (and both) employees.

But if you want to talk about how much money he's made, may I point out to you a few of the blunders you're well aware of:

- XFL - Bled money and was the worst football venture ever.

- Invasion angle - Had he not been cheap from the get-go, he could STILL be milking WCW vs WWF today, instead, he killed all the heat it had within three months.

- HHH @##%ing a mannequin. Yeah, it probably didn't cost him that much, but what a stupid, stupid idea.

There was the World Body Building fiasco as well. The WWF New York debacle where it went under and the XFL as you posted. Usually Vince's mistakes is when he leaves the comfort zone of what he knows and tries to branch out.

I really feared when he got into movies. But thus far he seems to have not lost much except for the "Condemned".

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well WWE isnt gonna last that long unless they:

1. Get new owner ship and restaff

and 2. Reboot the entire WWE franchise

vince makes the storylines, the writers dont make it of the top of thier heads

I admit things have been stale for them. They gotta create new stars and seem to be doing that with CM Punk now. But the WWE is a company that just drew over 70,000 paying fans to the lastest Wrestlemania.

Their last Wrestlemania in 2007 drew a $5 million dollar gate . Drew over 1,000,000 PPV Buys. They aren't gonna worry for a long...long time ...

[kmeyers]

In order to sell a wrestling match...the general fanbase has gotta buy into the charactres. Be it a bad ass heel or a good guy. And can back up what they do.

Its like selling a ticket to an adventure movie.

No, no it's not at all. Because This Pro Wrestling bullshit tries to pretend it's for real and legitimate. People acknowledge that Indiana Jones is fiction.

If there was a WWE movie made, it would go in the fiction section, not the Sports section.

[stealthwise]

I admit things have been stale for them. They gotta create new stars and seem to be doing that with CM Punk now. But the WWE is a company that just drew over 70,000 paying fans to the lastest Wrestlemania.

Their last Wrestlemania in 2007 drew a $5 million dollar gate . Drew over 1,000,000 PPV Buys. They aren't gonna worry for a long...long time ...

Have you read the Death of WCW? That was a very, very sharp decline in a short amount of time.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

No, no it's not at all. Because This Pro Wrestling bullshit tries to pretend it's for real and legitimate. People acknowledge that Indiana Jones is fiction.

And ask many fans who watch a Pro Wrestling show...be it TNA , ROH or WWE....they will tell you....they know its fake. The WWE is more glitz and glamor. Their the Sports Enertainment type production where one week Santino Marella gets his ass beaten by all the WWE Diva's and steals Jerry Lawler's "Subway Sandwich".

ROH is more sports based. They are the polar oppisite of a WWE. They believe in long matches , with young guys working hard. ROH usually gets a lot of bragging since there isn't much basis on storylines and its all about what the guys do in ring and perform.

TNA is currently trying to go in a more serious type way. For months their product has followed the whole WWE type sillyness where a woman gets married in a storyline to 2 men and hilarity erupts. But ya see where I'm going.... if someone thinks this shit is real...well...its not most Pro Wrestling fans. They know its fake but they enjoy what they watch.

If there was a WWE movie made, it would go in the fiction section, not the Sports section.

WWE Films actually has produced 3 movies... "The Condemned" starring Steve Austin... "The Marine" starring John Cena ...and See No Evil starring Kane. The Austin movie lost a little bit of money but the other 2 did well on Home Video and the company is producing another film with Cena .


Have you read the Death of WCW? That was a very, very sharp decline in a short amount of time.

And WCW was ran by some very horrid people and there was never a clear structure of who was in charge. The McMahon's run the WWE. They are the bosses. WCW's power structure in Turner/Time Warner was a nightmare and you saw how people were backstage in the Death of WCW Book.

From Jim Herd (who had never ran a wrestling promotion and worked at Pizza Hut) to Bill Busch..ya see how things went there.

[kmeyers]

And ask many fans who watch a Pro Wrestling show...be it TNA , ROH or WWE....they will tell you....they know its fake. The WWE is more glitz and glamor. Their the Sports Enertainment type production where one week Santino Marella gets his ass beaten by all the WWE Diva's and steals Jerry Lawler's "Subway Sandwich".

ROH is more sports based. They are the polar oppisite of a WWE. They believe in long matches , with young guys working hard. ROH usually gets a lot of bragging since there isn't much basis on storylines and its all about what the guys do in ring and perform.

TNA is currently trying to go in a more serious type way. For months their product has followed the whole WWE type sillyness where a woman gets married in a storyline to 2 men and hilarity erupts. But ya see where I'm going.... if someone thinks this shit is real...well...its not most Pro Wrestling fans. They know its fake but they enjoy what they watch.



WWE Films actually has produced 3 movies... "The Condemned" starring Steve Austin... "The Marine" starring John Cena ...and See No Evil starring Kane. The Austin movie lost a little bit of money but the other 2 did well on Home Video and the company is producing another film with Cena .




And WCW was ran by some very horrid people and there was never a clear structure of who was in charge. The McMahon's run the WWE. They are the bosses. WCW's power structure in Turner/Time Warner was a nightmare and you saw how people were backstage in the Death of WCW Book.

From Jim Herd (who had never ran a wrestling promotion and worked at Pizza Hut) to Bill Busch..ya see how things went there.

Yeah, you don't get it. People who watch this Pro Wrestling, realize that it's totally FAKE, and staged.

But they market it as for real. This was brought to my attention recently when people were interviewing Floyd Mayweather, like he was actually in any danger.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, you don't get it. People who watch this Pro Wrestling, realize that it's totally FAKE, and staged.

But they market it as for real. This was brought to my attention recently when people were interviewing Floyd Mayweather, like he was actually in any danger.

I'm sure that they did a great job at protecting Mayweather's health, but if you think that wrestlers aren't putting their health on the line when they enter the ring, you're sorely mistaken. Far too many injuries and deaths over the past several years because of the wear and tear on athletes.

Seriously, if you can get a copy of Mick Foley's "Have a Nice Day!: A tale of blood and sweatsocks" out from the library or bookstore, give it a read, you might find it interesting.

We've gone from "wrestling's real and deadly!" to "oh, it's all fake, and they're not hurt at all." Both attitudes are potentially damaging, the latter to the wrestlers themselves, who are expected to perform at a high level far too often, and who usually need surgery, drugs, or both, to keep at it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yeah, you don't get it. People who watch this Pro Wrestling, realize that it's totally FAKE, and staged.

But they market it as for real. This was brought to my attention recently when people were interviewing Floyd Mayweather, like he was actually in any danger.

And last year people watched as Donald Trump did the news press about him possibly losing his hair. If his guy lost at Wrestlemania. And people wondered how he would look bald on news shows. Nevermind the odds of it happening was slim to none.


The Press picked it up , ESPN ran it hard since in April theres not much going on sports wise. MLB was in the spring , NFL isn't on and beyond the NCAA Basketball tournament ...ya need something to talk about. So...ya had the Mayweather ..a successful boxer stepping into a wrestling ring which they covered.

Its like when Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone stepped into a WCW ring in 1998. The press did a huge story and all...wondering how bad Malone would kick Rodman's ass in a wrestling ring. They even had Jim Rhome interview Karl Malone about it...acting like it too...was real...lol.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm sure that they did a great job at protecting Mayweather's health, but if you think that wrestlers aren't putting their health on the line when they enter the ring, you're sorely mistaken. Far too many injuries and deaths over the past several years because of the wear and tear on athletes.

Seriously, if you can get a copy of Mick Foley's "Have a Nice Day!: A tale of blood and sweatsocks" out from the library or bookstore, give it a read, you might find it interesting.

We've gone from "wrestling's real and deadly!" to "oh, it's all fake, and they're not hurt at all." Both attitudes are potentially damaging, the latter to the wrestlers themselves, who are expected to perform at a high level far too often, and who usually need surgery, drugs, or both, to keep at it.


Pretty true. Just recently Rey Mysterio tore his arm up so bad that he's on the shelf for at least 9 months....maybe longer. Cena just came back from an arm injury in Jan.

Edge came back last year after torn rotator injury that put him out 4 months. And before that he was injured once for an entire year with a bad neck.

[kmeyers]

I'm sure that they did a great job at protecting Mayweather's health, but if you think that wrestlers aren't putting their health on the line when they enter the ring, you're sorely mistaken. Far too many injuries and deaths over the past several years because of the wear and tear on athletes.

Seriously, if you can get a copy of Mick Foley's "Have a Nice Day!: A tale of blood and sweatsocks" out from the library or bookstore, give it a read, you might find it interesting.

We've gone from "wrestling's real and deadly!" to "oh, it's all fake, and they're not hurt at all." Both attitudes are potentially damaging, the latter to the wrestlers themselves, who are expected to perform at a high level far too often, and who usually need surgery, drugs, or both, to keep at it.

I'm not a wrestling fan. I'm a big MMA fan. Where people actually get beat up.

Yeah, wrestlers are good athletes, but who isn't great when the outcome is pre-determined?

Pro Wrestling is basically a soap opera of some fake wrestling bullshit I don't care about.

Pro Wrestlers are Soap Opera Stunt Men.

[jka12002]

No, no it's not at all. Because This Pro Wrestling bullshit tries to pretend it's for real and legitimate. People acknowledge that Indiana Jones is fiction.

If there was a WWE movie made, it would go in the fiction section, not the Sports section.

i actually had an Idea for a Vince Mcmahon Bio film, just to show the true stories behind WWE's conterversal events and tragites.

my ideal cast:

Vince Mcmahon: Christian Bale
Shane: Topher Grace
Stephanie: Christina Ricci or Anne Hathaway
Linda: Maria bello
Bret Hart: James Franco
Shawn Micheals: James Marsden
Bobby Henan: Steve Carell
Gorilla Monsoon: Christopher Lloyd
Ultimate Warrior: himself
Vince Mcmahon Sr: Burt Young
Ted Turner: William H macy
Eric Bichoff: Jaime Kennedy or Noah Wyle

[thehod]

Then there's the guy who wants to buy an English Football team, and rename it after a fictional club club because its got more marketing potential...

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7318218.stm)

[worstblogever]

Bill Bidwill is bad, and notoriously cheap. Arizona has had 1 winning season since 1988 in the NFL, and one playoff win in that time (now a decade ago). He's had more top ten draft pick busts than anyone, and even more that floundered with the Cardinals for three or four years, before going somewhere else and thriving (Simeon Rice, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Garrison Hearst, etc.)

Mike Brown of the Bengals is up there, too. I've heard of him being so cheap, he got sued by fans because after running out of bottled water at games, he told his stadium concessions people to find empties and fill them with tap water, then sell 'em at regular bottled water prices. The Bengals were scary there for a few years, but he neglected to have his GM bring in character guys, so they're already imploding again.

The Ford Family... the Lions have been bad forever, it seems. Matt Millen is a few weeks away from drafting another wide receiver for them, and still retaining his job.

Sterling, with the Clippers, yeah... he's awful. Half the teams make the playoffs in the NBA. I recall the Clippers being in the top 50% of the West's teams to qualify once in the 20 years I've watched. I've lost count of the number of times they get someone who becomes an All-Star, then leaves when his contract expires.

Now, currently, Al Davis is the worst owner in sports. However, I want to be clear, Al Davis 20 years ago was a genius. But I really think he's got dementia or something in the present day, and nobody can legally make him lose control of the Raiders. The decisions he's made the past five years with that team show little to no understanding of the nuances of today's NFL.

I'll give honorable mention to whoever owns the L.A. Galaxy and paid David Beckham all that money to play a handful of games. You did wonders for soccer, and brought it into the mainstream again, sir. Totally worth $50 million. :rolleyes:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'll give honorable mention to whoever owns the L.A. Galaxy and paid David Beckham all that money to play a handful of games. You did wonders for soccer, and brought it into the mainstream again, sir. Totally worth $50 million. :rolleyes:

Its not $50 million he paid David Beckham. No.... he paid Beckham $250 million to play soccer !! So you think $50 Million is a lot and over paying him. Now imagine 4 times that and you gotta be thinking... HOLY SHIT.

[jessecuster3]

kmeyers, I'll see your Dana White and raise you a Vince McMahon.

Professional Wrestling is not a sport.





I'll give honorable mention to whoever owns the L.A. Galaxy and paid David Beckham all that money to play a handful of games. You did wonders for soccer, and brought it into the mainstream again, sir. Totally worth $50 million. :rolleyes:

This is complete crazy talk. Every single game Beckham plys in is sold out, both in LA and wherever he plays nationwide. Beckham himself has a huge youth soccer organization right here in the States, introducing to soccer to thousands of kids. Oh, and he is probably one of the best passers in the history of the game. So yeah, you really know what you are talking about.

[J Dog]

Huh, why? Not every expansion team wins right away dude. You guys traded for Kazmir, picked up Crawfords options, Brought in Pena, Iwamura from Japan, traded for Garza and have maybe the best prospect in all of baseball in Longoria coming up. Don't forget about Upton, Shields and a new stadium in the works.

What's not to like?

Man, that post was from 2005. I was a completely different person back then.

To be honest, I'm really surprised that I'm the only person who has brought in Peter Angelos to the mix. The man took a Balitmore Orioles team that was about ready to become a playoff bellwether and instead converted it into a mess. Here's what I know about him:

*When it came to a major issue (I think it involved free agency or a cap, I can't remember), Angelos was one of two owners against it. The other? Marge Schott, the Nazi-supporting cheapskate.
*He was a strong opponent to the Nationals' move and when they got a contract for TV, it was good... for him.
*He doesn't invest in anyone, despite the over 425% increase in the team's value during his time. And when he does, it's normally a washed-up player (like Sammy Sosa).

He's only in it to make money. And I know he's going to remain owner for a good while.

[Cyke]

I'm not a wrestling fan. I'm a big MMA fan. Where people actually get beat up.

Yeah, wrestlers are good athletes, but who isn't great when the outcome is pre-determined?

Pro Wrestling is basically a soap opera of some fake wrestling bullshit I don't care about.

Pro Wrestlers are Soap Opera Stunt Men.

Nobody's countering any of that. The thing is, pro-wrestlers do indeed get hurt. Regardless of storylines and pre-determination, getting your back slammed onto a mat is painful no matter what occupation it is. I guarentee, set up a fake football league (with pre-determined victories, unlike the XFL) and the tackles will still be very real. Heck, stuntmen who replace Bruce Willis and Matt Damon get hurt on the job from real falls and crashes. That takes nothing away from stuntmen and their fight scenes.

[Gingold]

Neither wrestling nor MMA are sports.

[J Dog]

Nobody's countering any of that. The thing is, pro-wrestlers do indeed get hurt. Regardless of storylines and pre-determination, getting your back slammed onto a mat is painful no matter what occupation it is. I guarentee, set up a fake football league (with pre-determined victories, unlike the XFL) and the tackles will still be very real. Heck, stuntmen who replace Bruce Willis and Matt Damon get hurt on the job from real falls and crashes. That takes nothing away from stuntmen and their fight scenes.

Essentially, here's the rule of thumb: Pro wrestling is "fake" and essentially orchestrated theater, but the guys in it do put their bodies on the line. They DO get hurt, even when they're doing their best to avoid it. Also, you can't count the amounts of physical and psychological trauma that one gains after several years doing this.

When you look at Vince, there's a bunch of nonsense that comes in to the table, and I'm not talking about the XFL and WBF. He pissed money on a long-term contract for a place that's contract expired in 2017. The World, as it was known, closed in 2003. He has endorsed several bad movies. And, of course, you're not going to count out the numerous amounts of dumb gimmicks and WrestleCrap fodder he's made over the years.

[jessecuster3]

Neither wrestling nor MMA are sports.

MMA is totally a sport, its entirely real, do you think boxing is a sport?

[Gingold]

MMA is totally a sport, its entirely real, do you think boxing is a sport?

NASCAR is "totally real", as is "Survivor" - doesn't make them sports.

Sports involve balls, pucks, sticks, rackets, gloves, tracks, fields, swimming pools, and/or skates.

(Yeah, I'm sure MMA qualifies as a sport, but it's lameness disqualifies it in my book).

[SUPERECWFAN1]

NASCAR is "totally real", as is "Survivor" - doesn't make them sports.

Sports involve balls, pucks, sticks, rackets, gloves, tracks, fields, swimming pools, and/or skates.

(Yeah, I'm sure MMA qualifies as a sport, but it's lameness disqualifies it in my book).

Yeah but its a sport. They may not wear gloves but Mixed Martial Arts fighting is in fact a sport now and draws PPV Buyrates that are very next to Boxing. It may not have gloves and it may seem lame to you (and I'm no huge fan ..I watch whenever a rare moment is on). But I won't say MMA isn't a sport.

[Cyke]

When you look at Vince, there's a bunch of nonsense that comes in to the table, and I'm not talking about the XFL and WBF. He pissed money on a long-term contract for a place that's contract expired in 2017. The World, as it was known, closed in 2003. He has endorsed several bad movies. And, of course, you're not going to count out the numerous amounts of dumb gimmicks and WrestleCrap fodder he's made over the years.

Well, I should clarify that my defense of pro-wrestling is by no means a defense of Vince McMahan at all. :)

[Black Winged Angel]

George Gillett and Tom Hicks with Liverpool FC comes to my mind. The way they acted has been ridiculous. Fighting in the public eye with each other aswell as arguing with the manager about money in public. Hardly professional behaviour.

[jessecuster3]

NASCAR is "totally real", as is "Survivor" - doesn't make them sports.

Sports involve balls, pucks, sticks, rackets, gloves, tracks, fields, swimming pools, and/or skates.

(Yeah, I'm sure MMA qualifies as a sport, but it's lameness disqualifies it in my book).

Well I just don't think it should be lumped into the same category as wrestling as many are wont to to do. MMA does require gloves, so in your definition, it passes. I would wager it takes more brains and skill that boxing and in the right situation is as much a chess match as one between a pitcher and batter.

[J Dog]

Well, I should clarify that my defense of pro-wrestling is by no means a defense of Vince McMahan at all. :)

Eh. I just decided to quote yours to try to see your point. Personally, Vince has done a bunch of dumb things that I can't stand.

[Theophilus]

Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys.

He's screwed Arlington taxpayers to build a huge stadium...then to add insult to injury, he raises the seating prices to the highest level in the NFL--effectively taking football away from its working class fanbase. He's just been caught misleading the public about seating sales and it looks like a lot of Cowboys games are going to get blacked out because of a sordid mixture of greed and incompetence.

[Gingold]

Well I just don't think it should be lumped into the same category as wrestling as many are wont to to do. MMA does require gloves, so in your definition, it passes. I would wager it takes more brains and skill that boxing and in the right situation is as much a chess match as one between a pitcher and batter.

I know all this. But at the end of the day, to me they're just near naked guys dry humping each other.

[kmeyers]

I know all this. But at the end of the day, to me they're just near naked guys dry humping each other.

That's only because you know nothing about it, and don't understand what's going on.

Edit: Do NFL linemen just hug each other all game?

[jessecuster3]

I know all this. But at the end of the day, to me they're just near naked guys dry humping each other.


Ok, do you like boxing? What about collegiate/Olympic(folk style or Greco Roman) wrestling?


What if the two were mixed? Would it still be near naked guys dry humping each other?

[Nightstar1441]

Peter Angelos of the Baltimore Orioles

Has turned a once proud franchise into a steaming pile by chasing away talented executives and coaches (Gillick, Johnson) and hiring puppets for him to manipulate.

Moron could have gotten 4 high end prospects from the Angels last year for Tejada but stopped the deal.

They got significantly less from the Astros.

Al Davis deserves mention as he is the Castro of professional sports - and has absolutely no clue how to draft

[stealthwise]

Ok, do you like boxing? What about collegiate/Olympic(folk style or Greco Roman) wrestling?


What if the two were mixed? Would it still be near naked guys dry humping each other?

Yes. Mixing in boxing only makes it more ethnic.

[kmeyers]

Yes. Mixing in boxing only makes it more ethnic.

Not really. MMA has fighters from all over the world, just as much, and is probably even more representative of the world's ethnicities than boxing is.

[stealthwise]

Not really. MMA has fighters from all over the world, just as much, and is probably even more representative of the world's ethnicities than boxing is.

I was referring to mixing boxing in with greco roman wrestling.

And I was also totally kidding.

[kmeyers]

I was referring to mixing boxing in with greco roman wrestling.

And I was also totally kidding.

Ah, my bad. Joke went right over my head.

[stealthwise]

Ah, my bad. Joke went right over my head.

No, my bad. It was a pretty stupid joke.

Let me make it up to you. Get in the referee's position so I can mount you...

[kmeyers]

No, my bad. It was a pretty stupid joke.

Let me make it up to you. Get in the referee's position so I can mount you...

Ok, that was a good one. I also do wonder who it was who came up with the term, "rear naked choke."

[stealthwise]

Ok, that was a good one. I also do wonder who it was who came up with the term, "rear naked choke."

When we were younger, we used to just call that one the "Uncle Jimmy."


He's not allowed at reunions anymore...

[DWEarhart]

Ok, that was a good one. I also do wonder who it was who came up with the term, "rear naked choke."

Hadake Jime. It's Okinawan in origin.

Jerry Jones. Keep Pacman Jones off the Cowboys. I don't want no thug-wannabe p.o.s. desecrating the star. You lousy bastitch.

[Josh S]

Jerry Jones. Keep Pacman Jones off the Cowboys. I don't want no thug-wannabe p.o.s. desecrating the star. You lousy bastitch.


Nate Newton and Michael Irvin have already taken care of that.

[Royal]

Hey , Vince just handed a $20 million dollar pay day to a boxer....now that had to really break Vince's heart.

Another reason I hate Sports Media.

He only got a million.

[Royal]

Professional Wrestling is not a sport.


American Mainstream Pro Wrestling isn't a sport. It's a stepping stone for actors.

[Royal]

UFC's Dana White.

He pays lower level fighters almost nothing, signs them to contracts where he basically owns them, their likeness, and everything about them.

He treats his top money making fighters so bad that they are leaving as soon as they can get out of their contracts, now that MMA has gotten more popular and they have other options.

Tito Ortiz was in the UFC before Dana White was around, and had some of the highest paid Pay Per Views for the Dana White UFC era, and Dana White CONSTANTLY badmouths the guy.

Randy Couture, another top draw, current UFC Heavyweight Champ, ambassador for the sport of MMA, and MMA legend, just walked away from the UFC because he felt like Dana White was treating him so badly.

Andrei Arlovski, former UFC champ had to sit on the sidelines losing thousands of dollars in endorsement deals, because he didn't want to re-negotiate his contract on Dana White's terms, so he was shelved for a year, until they had to finally give him the last fight on his contract...Then that fight wasn't even broadcast.

Now Tim Sylvia another former UFC Champ just left too.

Plus, Dana White just doesn't conduct himself as a businessman. He curses, all the time, and talks shit on fighters any chance he gets. He's just generally a bad, petty person.

Gary Shaw.

He's building his EXC off of an unproven LightHeavy. He creates a Woman's division around a one diamentional fighter and then creates "catch weights" when neither of them can make weight.

He scews up good matchups taking good fighters out and replacing them with hasbeens riding fifteen minutes, thus making the fight unwatchable.

Did I mention he throws fights in unregulated states?

[stealthwise]

American Mainstream Pro Wrestling isn't a sport. It's a stepping stone for actors.

In the same way that porno is.

[Baron Banter]

I can't believe nobody picked the Pittsburgh Pirates. The team that's going to set the all time record for losing seasons in a row?

Cheap Cheap Cheap.

[EZMOHR]

Can't we kind of get to the point where we say, what, Media-Corp, whatever conglomerate owns The Cubs are the worst. Not only have they sold the image of The Cubs being loveable losers, but they've helped to keep brainwashing their fans into making that some sort of badge of honor.

Anyways, I hate The Cubs, and hope they keep losing. Next to The Cardinals, my most hated team.

[hugh45]

The Fords anyone? :mad:

[Guts/Batman]

Interesting. Didn't think this thread would rise from the dead. Since I posted my initial post, Dolan, the owner of the Knicks, has surpassed Bidwell. It's amazing he hasn't just tried to disappear completely.