Selling Out: What is it?

[Ouzo Man]

Thinking back twenty years or so, I remember a period when folks were accusing Bruce Springsteen of having sold out. As far as I could tell, the verb "to sell out" in this context meant the following things:

1. Becoming visible on MTV
2. Having a recording everyone seemed to know about
3. Achieving a name recognition larger than a cliquish or cultic following, meaning in a general sense having fans who would not pass the smell test of elitists.

In context, the verb seems unfair. Exactly what actually had Springsteen sold out?

Again I present another philosophical / etymological / epistemological question about music. With the noise to signal ratio being so bad in claims of performers "selling out," what's the real dividing line?

I would say it doesn't have anything really to do with 1, 2, or 3, although any of these things could get an artist denounced as a sellout. I'd say it has a lot more to do with this:

4. Abandoning one's own artistic inspiration in order to pursue some shallow angle of success; for instance, giving over to a mass produced kind of music in order to spike sales but, in so doing, giving up whatever made an act worth paying attention to. (An exemplary event might be something like firing the band to replace it with a drum machine to streamline production because sequenced music is moving that year when the original concept had little, or nothing, to do with techno sounds).

Note that "to sell out" under definition #4 implies that a talent originally had something to compromise. Acts that were mass produced and formula-conceived to begin with may be immune to selling out until such time as they develop something to sell.

What does "selling out" mean here on the music board? And who has actually done it? And who is actually just trying to survive commercially after having exhausted rather than abandoned his inspiration?

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

the term "sell out" has been used and abused,people use it too liberaly.just because someone's mainstream doesn't automaticly make them sell outs

[Eliot Johnson]

I'd say your fourth definition is pretty much correct. An artist or group who sells out abandons their old style of music with the goal of achieving commercial success. Simply abandoning an old style or achieving commercial success doesn't constitute selling out...it's the intent which is important. Truthfully...we can never know the intent for sure, of course, but we can get a pretty good idea.

As for who has actually sold out?

Exhibit A: Three Six Mafia

In the late eigthies and early nineties, the Triple Six Mafia was one of the most innovative and creative groups in rap. They, along with DJ Squeeky, defined the Memphis sound and, to a large extent, defined the sound of Southern Rap itself. Their mixture of horrorcore and true-to-life stories was extremely entertaining and intelligent. The production by Juicy J and DJ Paul was totally original and served their rappers' lyrics perfectly. For about five years, Triple Six Mafia was a sign of hope for rap in general and especially Southern Rap.

Things began to go down hill with the 1995 release of Mystic Stylez (their first nationwide) and their name change to Three 6 Mafia (in order to become more radio friendly). While Mystic Stylez still showed some signs of creativity (particularly in the music and the lyrics left over from Lil' Fly's time with the group), it started their trend towards commercialized rap, with several stereotypical tracks. Their style had obviously changed in order for this album to be released nationwide.

In the process of that style change, The Camp lost its first of many rappers, and it was a crucial blow. Lil' Fly (soon to be known as Playa Fly) demanded his fair share of the money and also refused to change his style. DJ Paul subsequently kicked him out of the group with the excuse of his addiction to cocaine. This blow crippled the group, as Fly ghost wrote the vast majority of pre-Mystic Stylez lyrics for all of their rappers. Further, he exploded onto the Memphis scene with his "Triple Bitch Mafia" song which exposed The Camp for what they really were.

By their next album, Three Six Mafia were not even a shadow of their former selves. Any lyricism whatsoever had disappeared and the subject matter was pure garbage. Even the production had grown less and less distinctive and more and more commercialized.

Greed began to kick in even more. In that process, many, many rappers left the group, most notably Gangsta Blac (the largely recognized "Underground King") and T-Rock (the consensus choice as Atlanta's greatest lyricist; not to mention, Playa Fly's replacement as the group's resident lyricist). Indo G, Koopsta Knicca, Skinny Pimp, and most recently Gangsta Boo are other notable artists to abandon DJ Paul and Juicy J. T-Rock's classic diss track "Mr. Big Man" (where he lays into DJ Paul for being a "member of the sell-out institution") cost 3-6 even more fans.

It's really a shame. People listen to the garbage that is Choices II, which just dropped, and have no idea of what Three-6 once was.

[kid cthulhu]

That pretty much sums it up right there!

[Ilash]

I need a grand total of two words to explain everything and anything that you need to know about selling out:


Rod Stewart.

[Adam Crocker]

I need a grand total of two words to explain everything and anything that you need to know about selling out:


Rod Stewart.

Oooooooohhhhh yeah!

[FresnoXpatriate]

Am I the only one to have that Reel Big Fish song underscoring everyone's replies on this page? I was going to try to come up with some example, but Tek's hits the nail on the head perfectly.

[DDM]

I believe "selling out" is determined by the artist or band & reaction from the public. The band or artist has to betray the artistic integrity for originally coming together in the first place.

[blackdragon6]

I'd say your fourth definition is pretty much correct. An artist or group who sells out abandons their old style of music with the goal of achieving commercial success. Simply abandoning an old style or achieving commercial success doesn't constitute selling out...it's the intent which is important. Truthfully...we can never know the intent for sure, of course, but we can get a pretty good idea.
more or less.......

[RegalSin]

You want to be an artist and make money. It is called commercial art.

[fivebyfive]

I personally believe that it's making the music you're told to make rather than the music you'd like to make.

[DKR]

Here's the idea of selling out:

There's a band that makes a record but doesn't make mainstream but manages to get a small following. When the band finally becomes known to the mainstream audience, the fans from the original small following say they sold out because they did it for money. Bands that people have claimed sold out include Metallica, Green Day, and My Chemical Romance.

I don't care if bands sell out, as long as they put out good music.

[Eric D.]

selling out involves the act of compromising one's own integrity as a means to making potentially more money than one thought they would have made had they not compromised their own integrity??

[mgs]

Selling out = what Liz Phair did.

Seriously, I bring it up a lot, but I feel bad for bashing that woman.

I mean, i think selling out can mean both 'fake' image and musical change. And by fake, I mean, not honest. I allow that people can change their tastes and appearances and all. But it should come from them. I even allow it to be bad or good, but again, it should come from them.

If others write their music, it should be acknowledged and tried out in limited amounts. But an artist has to have a 'core', I think. Something that would not be compromised.

[Adam C]

selling out involves the act of compromising one's own integrity as a means to making potentially more money than one thought they would have made had they not compromised their own integrity??

Well whatever "integrity" means...

But like Ouzo, I regard it more as sacrificing your artistic identity to the point of being generic just to lick the shiny brass ring. It's the difference between the Flaming Lips of the world who built on their earlier interests in psych pop to gain lasting mainstream success with Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots and the Rod Stewarts of this world (Stewart once being a great interpretative singer and a good songwriter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAun0WoPNDU) who sacrificed it all for...this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aDbLa5G5GE).)

[C. Earl]

Selling out = what Liz Phair did.

Seriously, I bring it up a lot, but I feel bad for bashing that woman.

Did she really "sell out" or did she just decide to lighten up and have some fun? Sometimes people change their musical styles because it reflects a change in their personal lives. I think that was the case with Liz Phair, but in truly indie tradition, couldn't care less what people thought about what she did because it was her choice to do something different...

But it seems if an artist decides to go pop (after initially being not) he or she is labeled as a sell out. People who go from pop to another musical style don't quite have that stigma, IMO. They're judged more on their ability to transition well, I believe. Two examples I can think of doing it both well and badly is Jewel--who went from indie to pop for one album (and was crucified for it), but then successfully went from there to country and nobody even blinked because it seemed a natural change for her because of how "folksy" her early indie stuff was. Ditto for Darius Rucker of Hootie & the Blowfish who struck gold going country after initially failing with a more R&B-oriented solo attempt. Once again, it was a case of transitioning well from one style to another.

Then again, you have Jessica Simpson going from pop to country, and both pop and country fans still haven't quite recovered from that just yet...

[Motormouse]

For the true definition of the word sellout, look in the dictionary under "Black Eye Peas" And see how they were before they culled most of their number, and hired a skanky pant wetting hoe!:mad:

[G. Wayne]

the term "sell out" has been used and abused,people use it too liberaly.just because someone's mainstream doesn't automaticly make them sell outs

This. When freaking Jello Biafra is considered a sell out by some, the term has lost most of it's relevance.

[WWWD]

Selling Out is a term invented by pretentious kids, who throw a tissy fit when their obscure bands are no longer obscure. It's the equivalent of having an inside joke, but when it becomes popular, you don't think it's funny anymore.

[The Black Guardian]

Selling out is what every artist does before anyone's ever heard of them.

[Eric D.]

For the true definition of the word sellout, look in the dictionary under "Black Eye Peas" And see how they were before they culled most of their number, and hired a skanky pant wetting hoe!:mad:


yeah....2000's Bridging the Gap was the last album credible album they made ...adding that "skanky pant wetting hoe" helped in solidifying their status as clowns.

[Sentry76]

Selling out is a made up term imo.

People just love to toss around terms

[Slam_Bradley]

Upsetting uptight music nerds.

[DKR]

Selling out is a made up term imo.

People just love to toss around terms

Like emo..

[Adam C]

Selling out is a made up term imo.


You mean like every other word or phrase in any language, ever?

[comicsmetal]

Selling Out is a term invented by pretentious kids, who throw a tissy fit when their obscure bands are no longer obscure. It's the equivalent of having an inside joke, but when it becomes popular, you don't think it's funny anymore.

That kind of sounds like comic book fanboys when a movie adaptation does not go there where.

[mgs]

Did she really "sell out" or did she just decide to lighten up and have some fun? Sometimes people change their musical styles because it reflects a change in their personal lives. I think that was the case with Liz Phair, but in truly indie tradition, couldn't care less what people thought about what she did because it was her choice to do something different...

But it seems if an artist decides to go pop (after initially being not) he or she is labeled as a sell out. People who go from pop to another musical style don't quite have that stigma, IMO. They're judged more on their ability to transition well, I believe. Two examples I can think of doing it both well and badly is Jewel--who went from indie to pop for one album (and was crucified for it), but then successfully went from there to country and nobody even blinked because it seemed a natural change for her because of how "folksy" her early indie stuff was.

Well, yes, I agree with the stuff you say about Liz and the things that were apparently going on in her life at the time of the change in musical style, but that's not what the case for her, 'selling out' was about, I don't think.

And I think one person who successfully went 'pop' and was not overly berated for it was, Gwen Steffani. Because she did it well, and proved that who she was for an artist. So I don't think it's the change in style that is the pitfall.

[Sentry76]

You mean like every other word or phrase in any language, ever?

Droll, sir. Very...droll :tongue:

[pariah-1972]

I think the term selling out is sort of juvenile and immature in a lot of ways...

people and bands change and grow.
just because someone decides to start making more commercial sounding music doesn't mean that they are selling out, especially if their intent was to make something that they enjoyed listening to and playing.
i am honestly thinking of Metallica on this they went from a semi underground band to a huge stadium worldwide success after one album, but everything i have heard from them they wanted to go in a different direction musically and while it was a commercial sounding direction(hard not to with a guy like Bob Rock) that move could have easily backfired on them especially knowing how hardcore that audience is, and i don't think they really needed the money that bad.

Also Cliff was the one who was the most hardcore about that musical direction and was the one behind the arranging of that style of music.

They also wanted an album that sounded bigger and had more bottom end and i think they were also frustrated with the dull somewhat low fi sound of Injustice For All and were getting a lot of feedback from fans and other musicians that they sounded much better live than on record .


As for Rod Stewart... i grew up on his 80s pop stuff and i still think it's pretty good sounding, but i do thing since the 90's he has been a bit adrift in finding his place musically
and i have heard some really bad reviews about his standards albums.
i would like to think there is a good reason for all this and i wonder how hard it is for him to find himself again musically at his age and considering he is not a songwriter,
but a song finder which is not a good place to be in rock music nowadays and most pop songwriters are either in the dance pop genre or have moved over to country.



Anyways i figure as long as you are making music that you enjoy making then i don't think you can be called a sell out.

If you compromise your principles i could def see the term having relevance but there have been bands (REM for example )that have changed there minds about things like making music videos and lip synching in them and writing love songs but those things weren't selling out cause they did them artistically in my opinion.


My fav band the Cure recorded a song with Blink 182 (whom i personally cannot stand) and i thought Robert had sold out, but the song is actually really good and sounds a lot like the Cure's older stuff.


If he does a duet with Ashlee Simpson i hope it's for a good reason.

[Adam C]

Droll, sir. Very...droll :tongue:

Well maybe it's because I took some interest in anthropology that corresponded with my particular interests in history, but any language, ever, at some point was invented as were the sounds and written symbols associated with it. They only mean anything because the people using them have agreed upon their meaning, and the same goes for any common phrases that get coined whether it's "sellin' out", "keeping it real", "cool", "For God's Sakes", etc. So it's not like saying that it's 'made up' says anything as opposed to interrogating the history, meaning, and usage of the term and finding out whether it says anything meaningful or is just a signifier to enforce tribal identity within musical subculture.

[hugh45]

Did she really "sell out" or did she just decide to lighten up and have some fun? Sometimes people change their musical styles because it reflects a change in their personal lives. I think that was the case with Liz Phair, but in truly indie tradition, couldn't care less what people thought about what she did because it was her choice to do something different...

But it seems if an artist decides to go pop (after initially being not) he or she is labeled as a sell out. People who go from pop to another musical style don't quite have that stigma, IMO. They're judged more on their ability to transition well, I believe. Two examples I can think of doing it both well and badly is Jewel--who went from indie to pop for one album (and was crucified for it), but then successfully went from there to country and nobody even blinked because it seemed a natural change for her because of how "folksy" her early indie stuff was. Ditto for Darius Rucker of Hootie & the Blowfish who struck gold going country after initially failing with a more R&B-oriented solo attempt. Once again, it was a case of transitioning well from one style to another.

Then again, you have Jessica Simpson going from pop to country, and both pop and country fans still haven't quite recovered from that just yet...




Hootie & the Blowfish never sold out because they had nothing to sell out too. They pretended that they were an indie group.

[hugh45]

I think the term selling out is sort of juvenile and immature in a lot of ways...

people and bands change and grow.
just because someone decides to start making more commercial sounding music doesn't mean that they are selling out, especially if their intent was to make something that they enjoyed listening to and playing.
i am honestly thinking of Metallica on this they went from a semi underground band to a huge stadium worldwide success after one album, but everything i have heard from them they wanted to go in a different direction musically and while it was a commercial sounding direction(hard not to with a guy like Bob Rock) that move could have easily backfired on them especially knowing how hardcore that audience is, and i don't think they really needed the money that bad.

Also Cliff was the one who was the most hardcore about that musical direction and was the one behind the arranging of that style of music.

They also wanted an album that sounded bigger and had more bottom end and i think they were also frustrated with the dull somewhat low fi sound of Injustice For All and were getting a lot of feedback from fans and other musicians that they sounded much better live than on record .


As for Rod Stewart... i grew up on his 80s pop stuff and i still think it's pretty good sounding, but i do thing since the 90's he has been a bit adrift in finding his place musically
and i have heard some really bad reviews about his standards albums.
i would like to think there is a good reason for all this and i wonder how hard it is for him to find himself again musically at his age and considering he is not a songwriter,
but a song finder which is not a good place to be in rock music nowadays and most pop songwriters are either in the dance pop genre or have moved over to country.



Anyways i figure as long as you are making music that you enjoy making then i don't think you can be called a sell out.

If you compromise your principles i could def see the term having relevance but there have been bands (REM for example )that have changed there minds about things like making music videos and lip synching in them and writing love songs but those things weren't selling out cause they did them artistically in my opinion.


My fav band the Cure recorded a song with Blink 182 (whom i personally cannot stand) and i thought Robert had sold out, but the song is actually really good and sounds a lot like the Cure's older stuff.


If he does a duet with Ashlee Simpson i hope it's for a good reason.

What do y think of Lenny Kravitz and Pink doing a concert together?

And what of people who singing pop,then decide to sound alt?

[C. Earl]

Hootie & the Blowfish never sold out because they had nothing to sell out too. They pretended that they were an indie group.

I actually never thought Hootie & the Blowish sold out or were really an indie group. They always seemed like a college town band that just struck gold at the right time and place for them to do so.

[pariah-1972]

What do y think of Lenny Kravitz and Pink doing a concert together?

And what of people who singing pop,then decide to sound alt?I like Pink a lot and Kravitz is usually pretty good and he has sang on stage with N'sync which i thought was pretty low and below his standards.



I don't know of anyone who has gone from Pop to Alternative Rock that i can remember,

[pariah-1972]

I actually never thought Hootie & the Blowish sold out or were really an indie group. They always seemed like a college town band that just struck gold at the right time and place for them to do so.I'm pretty sure the group doesn't even think of themselves as Indie.

[SlightlyMad]

"Here's the deal, folks. You do a commercial - you're off the artistic roll call, forever. End of story. Okay? You're another whore at the captialist gang bang and if you do a commercial, there's a price on your head. Everything you say is suspect and every word that comes out of your mouth is now like a turd falling into my drink."
Bill Hicks had all the answers.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__OSIB1hWqew/RrILgXWWGEI/AAAAAAAAAT0/9cyrfAWadj8/s400/hicks.jpg

[Adam C]

What do y think of Lenny Kravitz and Pink doing a concert together?

Well I don't follow either of them, though I have a friend who might be excited by that.


And what of people who singing pop,then decide to sound alt?

I don't know. Do they sound good doing it or does it come off as flaccid dilettantism?


I actually never thought Hootie & the Blowish sold out or were really an indie group. They always seemed like a college town band that just struck gold at the right time and place for them to do so.

So what you're saying then is that they are Huey Lewis and the News for the alt. rock generation?

[jesse_custer]

Hootie and The Blowfish didn't pretend to be anything. They are a bunch of losers who came out with a handful of catchy songs.

[pariah-1972]

Well I don't follow either of them, though I have a friend who might be excited by that.



I don't know. Do they sound good doing it or does it come off as flaccid dilettantism?



So what you're saying then is that they are Huey Lewis and the News for the alt. rock generation?That's a good description but Huey and the News had better songs:tongue:

[C. Earl]

Originally Posted by Shameless Fanboy
I actually never thought Hootie & the Blowish sold out or were really an indie group. They always seemed like a college town band that just struck gold at the right time and place for them to do so.

So what you're saying then is that they are Huey Lewis and the News for the alt. rock generation?
If you like to think of it that way, I guess. IMO, most bands hit it big (or at least they used to) due to the timing being right for their particular music to connect with a particular audience. This goes for artists you like as well as for those you don't, I believe. There was a time when a lot of people wanted to hear Hootie & the Blowish, just like there was for Huey Lewis & the News...