Captain America in deep trouble!!!

[latuff]

"The reality is that we're losing in Iraq" - Top Republican Senator Chuck Hagel slammed the George W. Bush administration's Iraq policy as "disconnected from reality" in some of the harshest comments to date about the war from a member of the president's own party.
Hagel said in an interview in US News and World Report, set to hit newsstands Monday, that US troops are "losing" the Iraq war, and that "things aren't getting better, they're getting worse."

http://dc.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/6/large/captainamerica.jpg

[Mike Smash!]

Latuff, I've never commented on your art before, and generally speaking the drawing are always very good.

But your fault lies in not having any sense of scale. I find most of your cartoons over the top and simplistic and your greatest fault is that you don't know when to stop.

In this case, the word bubble is totally unnecessary and takes it from something that pretty much speaks for itself to something that totally overplays its hand and has all of the subtley of a Gallagher routine.

Scale it back.

[latuff]

I though twice before to add a text ballon to it. I did because sometimes people simply don't get the message, even a plain simple message.

Anyway, thanks!
:)

[Mike Smash!]

I though twice before to add a text ballon to it. I did because sometimes people simply don't get the message, even a plain simple message.

Anyway, thanks!
:)But you've dumbed it down too much. Just like the one with the peace dove pooping on Bush, the word bubble is what killed it. It was just too much.

And those were some of your better cartoons.

[latuff]

Well, I can't be good all the time...but I try.
:)

[Valmore]

Like Captain America would get caught by a bunch of Iraqi terrorists. Puh-lease. Cap would smack 'em around with his mighty shield and force them to yield.

[west3man]

Like Captain America would get caught by a bunch of Iraqi terrorists. Puh-lease. Cap would smack 'em around with his mighty shield and force them to yield.
Thanks a lot.

Now I'm gonna have that song in my head the rest of the day. Unfortunately, there wasn't a whole lot else in there, so I really shouldn't complain.

[Mike Smash!]

I'm almost proud to say that the Hulk had the cheesiest of the 1960s animated Marvel themes.

[ocelotrevs]

Nice, but the text spoils it
In an issue of Ultimates, Captain America just told a few Iraqi fighters they better not mess because he could mess them up.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I though twice before to add a text ballon to it. I did because sometimes people simply don't get the message, even a plain simple message.

Anyway, thanks!
:)

If you're worried that people won't get the message, then you should try to make the message clearer from the art, and only add as much text as is absolutely necessary to explain the message. For example, your Captain America cartoon makes perfect sense to me even without the text. The text doesn't make the message any more understandable; it just exaggerates the message and blows it up out of all proportion. This is why I don't find your cartoon convincing, even though I already agree with its message.

[Alex]

The english is bad, it should just be "We're fucked in Iraq" or possibly, "We fucked up in Iraq"
And even then, it's weird that he would be saying that while having guns pointed at his head.
...
Yknow, just remove the word bubble.

[west3man]

The english is bad, it should just be "We're fucked in Iraq" or possibly, "We fucked up in Iraq"
And even then, it's weird that he would be saying that while having guns pointed at his head. Seems like that's when people are MOST LIKELY to say it.

[Alex]

Seems like that's when people are MOST LIKELY to say it.
They'd be more likely to say "Fucking shit don't kill me, please please don't kill me, i swear to god im not with america ignore the shirt i love allah!"

[west3man]

They'd be more likely to say "Fucking shit don't kill me, please please don't kill me, i swear to god im not with america ignore the shirt i love allah!"
Have you never seen these videos over the years?

[Alex]

Have you never seen these videos over the years?
The ones where the terrorists tell the people what to say?
They still use proper english.

[west3man]

The ones where the terrorists tell the people what to say? Yes.
They still use proper english.
Maybe, but that wasn't what I disagreed with.

[Alex]

Yes.

Maybe, but that wasn't what I disagreed with.
Well, now it's just being picky.
Lets say they are making a video of cap with a gun to his head.
He's been told what to say, so it doesn't matter.
Lets say we have god view.
He wouldn't be saying that if it was his last words.
Either way, removal of the word ballon on the picture fixes the problem.

[west3man]

Well, now it's just being picky.
Lets say they are making a video of cap with a gun to his head.
He's been told what to say, so it doesn't matter.
Lets say we have god view.
He wouldn't be saying that if it was his last words.
Either way, removal of the word ballon on the picture fixes the problem.
If the intent was to show Cap in a vulnerable position, I agree.

If the intent was to show Cap in a vulnerable-plus position (i.e. making him make statements against his country, while bound and on his knees... probably about to die)... the word-balloon probably was a good idea that suffered from an imperfect execution.

[Alex]

If the intent was to show Cap in a vulnerable position, I agree.

If the intent was to show Cap in a vulnerable-plus position (i.e. making him make statements against his country, while bound and on his knees... probably about to die)... the word-balloon probably was a good idea that suffered from an imperfect execution.
They also should have been holding a knife and a hand axe.

[west3man]

They also should have been holding a knife and a hand axe.
*nods*

I was too chicken to say it, though. That's some of the most disturbing shit I've ever heard of in my life (and I've seen some gory, horrible stuff).

Nuthin' like the real.

[Slappy san]

Fix the bubble and it works for me. Hell I'd sport that on a t-shirt.

[Alex]

*nods*

I was too chicken to say it, though. That's some of the most disturbing shit I've ever heard of in my life (and I've seen some gory, horrible stuff).

Nuthin' like the real.
Try watching the video.

[Slappy san]

Try watching the video.

Gotta link?

[west3man]

Gotta link?
I don't even wanna HEAR it, much less see it.

I guess we know whose balls are bigger. *sits down comfortably*

[Slappy san]

I don't even wanna HEAR it, much less see it.

I guess we know whose balls are bigger. *sits down comfortably*

I'd no doubt chicken out before it was over anyway.

[Ronald Bryan]

I don't think I've watched it. I always tried to avoid it.

[kmeyers]

latuff, how often do you draw these? do you do one a day, more than one a day, a couple of them in a week?

[Punchy]

I like it.

But I think the word balloon should simply say "We're Fucked."

[Alex]

Gotta link?
Anymore?
No, but trust me when i say you don't really want to see someones head getting cut off. It doesn't do anything, other then make you say "Ok, somebody just got their head cut off, my life is no better for watching that"
However, if you are horribly interested, i can find a link and pm it to you.

[Nitmo]

It's silly, any fan knows Cap Am has bullet-stopping chain mail where their guns are pointed.

as for everyone else in this thread, I'm revoking your geek privileges

[Wesley Dodds]

Hey, you know what'd be cooler? If Iraqi terrorists had the Hulk at gunpoint.

[kmeyers]

It's silly, any fan knows Cap Am has bullet-stopping chain mail where their guns are pointed.

as for everyone else in this thread, I'm revoking your geek privileges
yeah...but this kind of looks like the cover to a good Captain America story. You know he's going to find a way out...like James Bond.

except, better because he's american.

[kmeyers]

Hey, you know what'd be cooler? If Iraqi terrorists had the Hulk at gunpoint.
why? then THEYRE fucked.

bullets vs Hulk don't work.

[Wesley Dodds]

bullets vs Hulk don't work.

I know. Joke?

"Rarr, Hulk is the strongest one there is, but the United States is fucked in Iraq!"

Actually, you could do it on any issue.

"Rarr, Hulk is the strongest one there is, but abortion is murder!"

[kmeyers]

I know. Joke?

"Rarr, Hulk is the strongest one there is, but the United States is fucked in Iraq!"

Actually, you could do it on any issue.

"Rarr, Hulk is the strongest one there is, but abortion is murder!"
ah..ok...my joke meter is broken.

[Brandon Hanvey]

Why are the "terrorist" the same skin color as Captain America? Are they supposed to be Caucasian?

[Samurai]

Why are the "terrorist" the same skin color as Captain America? Are they supposed to be Caucasian?
Don't you know it's racist for the villains to be anything other than white guys, even if they are supposed to be Arab terrorists?

[west3man]

Don't you know it's racist for the villains to be anything other than white guys, even if they are supposed to be Arab terrorists?
That wasn't necessary.

[Samurai]

That wasn't necessary.
Well, it's a reference to the fact that in many movies, tv shows, etc, the terrorists/bombers are very often white, not middle eastern... look at the Die Hard trilogy, Under Seige, Speed, Blown Away, and dozens of similar movies. Just an observation... the Tim McVeigh's are an exception to the rule in terrorism in the real world, but they ARE the rule in entertainment.

But as for this picture, it could just be that latuff was working with a limited palete and decided to have 1 "skin color", that's it. Except for the gradiated background, he uses no shadows or realistic color techniques... It looks like a pretty fast and simple coloring job.

[west3man]

Well, it's a reference to the fact that in many movies, tv shows, etc, the terrorists/bombers are very often white, not middle eastern... look at the Die Hard trilogy, Under Seige, Speed, Blown Away, and dozens of similar movies. Just an observation... the Tim McVeigh's are an exception to the rule in terrorism in the real world, but they ARE the rule in entertainment. Post 9/11?

MANY people don't WANT to see that in their movies. THAT'S why it's not happening, as much. It's not about racism, it's about sensitivity (born of $$$) to the feelings of millions.

Movie-makers can barely get away with having "terrorists," per se, in their flicks. Making them Middle-Eastern is a painful reminder to too many Americans for the movie-makers to ignore.

Do you disagree?

[Samurai]

Post 9/11?

MANY people don't WANT to see that in their movies. THAT'S why it's not happening, as much. It's not about racism, it's about sensitivity (born of $$$) to the feelings of millions.

Movie-makers can barely get away with having "terrorists," per se, in their flicks. Making them Middle-Eastern is a painful reminder to too many Americans for the movie-makers to ignore.

Do you disagree?
Yes, I do... seeing a guy setting bombs, crashing a plane into a building, or executing hostages is what would be painful to the survivors or their relatives IMO, not the skin color/nationality of the person doing it. The only people who'd be especially offended by Arab terrorists are some Arabs and over-bearing PC types who might complain that such a character is an insensitive stereotype. Groups like CAIR watch for and make a big stink about any negative portrayals of Muslims or Arabs in western media.

[west3man]

Yes, I do... seeing a guy setting bombs, crashing a plane into a building, or executing hostages is what would be painful to the survivors or their relatives IMO, not the skin color/nationality of the person doing it. Why not BOTH?

As I said, they can BARELY get away with "terrorists" in their movies. Make them Middle-Eastern bad guys and the U.S. public will probably immediately associate them with terrorism (or a particular type, even).

The only people who'd be especially offended by Arab terrorists are some Arabs and over-bearing PC types who might complain that such a character is an insensitive stereotype. Not the ONLY people and not just "offense," but HURT.

[Wesley Dodds]

There's some truth in what Samurai is saying. The Sum of All Fears had Nazis as the villains (a change from the book). To think, it's been sixty years since the end of World War 2 and they're still the only really safe villains. I think that can be traced to a desire to not turn the events of 9/11 into entertainment. (Update: it's not clear in my post, but Sum of All Fears was rewritten before 9/11)

But on the whole I think there isn't a particular bias against Arab terrorists. The villains in Die Hard and Speed weren't terrorists -- Hans was pretending to be a terrorist but was actually a crook and Speed featured a psychopath seeking revenge. They weren't using violence for political ends. The Peacemaker had an Irish terrorist, which is natural because the Irish terrorist was at the forefront of our minds because of the violence going on in Ireland. It's important to remember that we didn't think of terrorism as peculiarly Muslim before 9/11. But nonetheless there were movies with Arab/Muslim terrorists -- Air Force One, for example. In the 90s the Arab terrorist was a cliche -- the Middle Eastern/Latern American terrorist was such a common trope in the 80s that of course movie producers would want to move away from it and find new villains. That's not a conspiracy, that's the economics of making movies.

Besides, it's not as if the white terrorists were anything like Tim McVeigh -- they were always either criminals or degenerate Europeans (or both, like in Die Hard). McVeigh has more in common with Bin Laden than Hans Gruber -- except, of course, for skin colour.

And Westy is right about the economics of putting out movies -- films with lots of destruction in them were held back because of 9/11. That's not bleeding heart liberal sympathy for Arabs, it's the fear of the film industry that they might lose money.

[JLarson]

I love the cartoon.

[warspite1805]

On a side note I seem to recall the terrorists in one of the Naked Gun films wereArabs.

[Alex]

Movie-makers can barely get away with having "terrorists," per se, in their flicks. Making them Middle-Eastern is a painful reminder to too many Americans for the movie-makers to ignore.

Do you disagree?
Ever seen 24?
Or then theres the multi billion dollar videogame industry, where killing arab terrorists was big money before 911

[west3man]

Ever seen 24? 'fraid not.
Or then theres the multi billion dollar videogame industry, where killing arab terrorists was big money before 911 So, you agree with me?

[Mike Smash!]

I will say that 24 is probably my favorite show on television and while Season 2 did involve terrorists from the Middle East, the real bad guys were Big Business trying to start a war to swell their oil profits.

That, and Jack Bauer is a total badass.

[Alex]

'fraid not.
So, you agree with me?
Totaly dis, actually.
You think that the movie companies are tending to avoid it because of hurt feelings or sensitivity or what have you, i pointed to a medium that is almost a spopular that makes constant use of arab terrorists (And hell, doesn't have you watching someone kill them, has YOU killing them)
Then you have FX doing a show based on the iraq war, while the show is still going on...
People ain't as sensitive or bothered as many think.

[west3man]

Totaly dis, actually.
You think that the movie companies are tending to avoid it because of hurt feelings or sensitivity or what have you, i pointed to a medium that is almost a spopular that makes constant use of arab terrorists (And hell, doesn't have you watching someone kill them, has YOU killing them) This doesn't seem to be within the context of Samurai's and my disagreement.

Or, maybe it just means that you disagree with both of us.



In any case, I expected the aversion to those topics to decrease as we move further from 9/11. Also, just as movies can get away with things that tv shows can't, the reverse is sometimes true.

[Alex]

In any case, I expected the aversion to those topics to decrease as we move further from 9/11. Also, just as movies can get away with things that tv shows can't, the reverse is sometimes true.
One woudl think that since TV has a bigger audience, they are allowed more massively acceptable content.

[Wesley Dodds]

As Alex has pointed out, there's no shortage of stories where Arab terrorists are the villains. It's strange to say the norm is "white terrorists".

...

Unless you count Cobra.

[Alex]

Unless you count Cobra.
Seriosuly, if they wanted to use 9/11 for a story, make cobra be more worthwhile. "So wait...they did that with 3 planes, we have fucking lazer beams and hover crafts, and we can't do anything?"
I might read the comic then.

[west3man]

As Alex has pointed out, there's no shortage of stories where Arab terrorists are the villains. It's strange to say the norm is "white terrorists". ...which is what Samurai was saying, if I'm not mistaken.

... Well-said.

Unless you count Cobra. I can't get behind this unless they scream, "Co-bra LALALALALALALLALALALALALALALALALLA"

[Wesley Dodds]

Yeah, so as Westy has pointed out, I disagree with Samurai. Big surprise there.

Seriosuly, if they wanted to use 9/11 for a story, make cobra be more worthwhile. "So wait...they did that with 3 planes, we have fucking lazer beams and hover crafts, and we can't do anything?"
I might read the comic then.

Ah, you should have said "We have laser beams and hover crafts a machine that changes the picture on money and they did that... with boxcutters!? Hmm. Destro, I would know more of these... boycutters..." And the next battle, Cobra are wielding box cutters like they're the Jets.

[west3man]

One woudl think that since TV has a bigger audience, they are allowed more massively acceptable content.
Not sure what you mean, exactly.

I think tv shows are marketed less-feverishly than movies. Movies have a slim window in which to make that (BIG) money and they've got all the media outlets at their fingertips to reach their worldwide potential audience.

TV shows are series which you may miss THIS episode of, but that's okay because you can catch the next one, next week... or when they show a rerun... or whatever. They can only advertise a show at a time and their budgets and media outlets are more limited.

I think this results in tv shows being able to slip under the radar more. There are exceptions, of course.

[Charles RB]

"So wait...they did that with 3 planes, we have fucking lazer beams and hover crafts, and we can't do anything?"

It's almost like Cobra is really a big conspiracy to drag in all the violent & subversive potential terrorists in America and turn them into incompetent twonks...

And it works!

[Wesley Dodds]

I've had that idea too. It'd be fantastic if there was a GI Joe movie where it was revealed that Cobra Commander was actually a top Joe agent tasked with keeping the world's terrorist's occupied with harmless but complex and fun plans. I mean, it'd make sense of everything.

[Slappy san]

Anymore?
No, but trust me when i say you don't really want to see someones head getting cut off. It doesn't do anything, other then make you say "Ok, somebody just got their head cut off, my life is no better for watching that"
However, if you are horribly interested, i can find a link and pm it to you.

works for me

[Samurai]

How did you go from this:There's some truth in what Samurai is saying. The Sum of All Fears had Nazis as the villains (a change from the book). To think, it's been sixty years since the end of World War 2 and they're still the only really safe villains. I think that can be traced to a desire to not turn the events of 9/11 into entertainment.

...to this?

Yeah, so as Westy has pointed out, I disagree with Samurai. Big surprise there.


I'm not saying Arabs are NEVER, EVER portrayed as terrorists or bombers... certainly there are some examples, like True Lies. But in real life, at the present time, the great majority of terrorists targetting Americans are radical muslims while in the entertainment media they are a minority... they'd usually rather use a crazy white guy with some grudge as the main terrorist/bomber/kidnapper villain.

[west3man]

How did you go from this:

...to this?


I'm not saying Arabs are NEVER, EVER portrayed as terrorists or bombers... certainly there are some examples, like True Lies. But in real life, at the present time, the great majority of terrorists targetting Americans are radical muslims while in the entertainment media they are a minority... they'd usually rather use a crazy white guy with some grudge as the main terrorist/bomber/kidnapper villain.The fact that TRUE LIES was well before 9/11 kinda speaks to my point.

[Charles RB]

But in real life, at the present time, the great majority of terrorists targetting Americans are radical muslims while in the entertainment media they are a minority... they'd usually rather use a crazy white guy with some grudge as the main terrorist/bomber/kidnapper villain.

This being the entertainment industry, I'm guessing they want their action films et al to be totally escapist. Using Islamist terrorists would require having to mention stuff from the real world which might make audiences... uncomfortable.

[Samurai]

The fact that TRUE LIES was well before 9/11 kinda speaks to my point.
Arab terrorism didn't start with 9/11... from embassy bombings to the '93 WTC attack to hijacked jetliners to kidnapped people held hostage, radical muslims/the middle east has been the predominant source of terrorism against Americans for decades.

[Samurai]

This being the entertainment industry, I'm guessing they want their action films et al to be totally escapist. Using Islamist terrorists would require having to mention stuff from the real world which might make audiences... uncomfortable.
That makes sense, and is probably part of the reason too.

[west3man]

Arab terrorism didn't start with 9/11... from embassy bombings to the '93 WTC attack to hijacked jetliners to kidnapped people held hostage, radical muslims/the middle east has been the predominant source of terrorism against Americans for decades.
My point wasn't that "Arab terrorism...start[ed] with 9/11."

My point was that one of the main reasons that we've seen more non-Middle Easterners as bad guys, or specifically TERRORIST bad guys, in movies from the last couple years, is because of the expected public reaction due to 9/11... not because of a pc-conspiracy.

[JeffreyWKramer]

This being the entertainment industry, I'm guessing they want their action films et al to be totally escapist. Using Islamist terrorists would require having to mention stuff from the real world which might make audiences... uncomfortable.


Then there's the fact, already addressed by Wes, that US movies play the world over, as much as some governments decry that fact, and that portraying Muslims in a negative light would thus potentially cut out a chunk of the potential profits. Given that film studios care mostly about profits, I think this decision is a significant factor. Indeed, this factor is why they keep making movies about largely-fictional villainous groups and movements, from SPECTRE to neo-Nazi world threats, rather than targeting real-world evils as the villains in action movies.

[Valmore]

The thing about movies is that some group is always looking to be offended, whether they were meant to be or not.

Like how the NAACP got mad at "The Lion King" because they thought the hyenas were ragging on blacks. Or the Japanese with "Star Wars episode I" or the Jamaicans in the same film. Etc.

Do Arab-world countries actually get our films? Aside from the rich oil czars that is?

[west3man]

The thing about movies is that some group is always looking to be offended, whether they were meant to be or not.
...and vice-versa.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Do Arab-world countries actually get our films? Aside from the rich oil czars that is?

In the Middle East, I'm not sure, but in the Muslim nations of SE Asia, certainly - and those folk tend to take unkindly to any negative portrayal of Muslims, regardless of race.