Can you be both a good person and a member of a hate group?

[DarlingNikki]

PHILADELPHIA, Miss. - The defense rested Monday in the trial of a former Ku Klux Klanman in the 1964 slayings of three civil rights workers after a former mayor testified that the white-supremacist group was a "peaceful organization." Harlan Majure, who was mayor of this rural Mississippi town in the 1990s, said Edgar Ray Killen was a good man and that the part-time preacher's Klan membership would not change his opinion. The defense rested Monday in the trial of a former Ku Klux Klanman in the 1964 slayings of three civil rights workers after a former mayor testified that the white-supremacist group was a "peaceful organization."

Harlan Majure, who was mayor of this rural Mississippi town in the 1990s, said Edgar Ray Killen was a good man and that the part-time preacher's Klan membership would not change his opinion.

Majur said the Klan "did a lot of good up here" and said he was not personally aware of the organization's bloody past.

"As far as I know it's a peaceful organization," Majure said. His comment was met with murmurs in the packed courtroom.

is it possible for a guy to be good despite the fact that he's associated with a hate group that terrorizes others?

and for that matter, is majure an idiot who lived in a cave or is he just living in a serious state of denial?

i know there are people out there who hold unfair judgement against others based on race, sexual orientation, etc. does this make him or her a bad person is does one venture into badness only after he or she joins a hate group?

i just figured if a person is part of a group that condones terrorizing and murdering folks based on race, it would make that person a bad person, period.

btw, here's the rest of the article

article (http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/mississippi_civil_rights_murders)

[Mike Smash!]

Considering that the Klan's mission was to scare off, terrorize or harm black people to save "white culture", then I'd say no.

But I'm drawing the line between "nice guy" and "good person". I mean Hitler was apparently known for being kind of dogs, but created factories for killing people.

Does that excuse it? Of course not. And I've seen nothing to show that the KKK is a "peaceful organization", no more than the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants is.

[Winslow]

What possible good did the clan do that Majue claims?

Anyway - I would say no. You cannot belong to a hate group and be a "good" person.

[Ed Cunard]

In the article, did Majure--or anyone, for that matter--go into more detail on how the Klan could be described as "do[ing] a lot of good?"

I'm inclined to say, "no, just being a part of it makes him a bit of a twat," but I'm mean, dismissive and judgmental like that, but I am curious to see what "good" the Klan ever did.

I'm also trying to rationlize how people I've seen shouting "go back to Africa, jungle bunny" can be described as peaceful--just because those couple were throwing insults rather than bricks doesn't make their actions "peaceful," either.

[DarlingNikki]

i just added the rest of the article. nothing there to support the theory of the kkk being a "peacekeeping" group...

[west3man]

is it possible for a guy to be good despite the fact that he's associated with a hate group that terrorizes others? If "to be good" means "doing good deeds at one time or another," yes.

If we're talking about that same guy being a good person, overall... That one's tougher.

i know there are people out there who hold unfair judgement against others based on race, sexual orientation, etc. does this make him or her a bad person is does one venture into badness only after he or she joins a hate group? It's about actions. So, if that unfair judgement results in "bad" actions, that sounds like a bad person, to me.

"Hate group" is defined in a number of ways. I may say "yes," to the second part of your question, when thinking about the KKK, but take issue with someone else responding similarly about the "Black Muslims" of the 60's. So, I guess, again, it comes down to what they do.

My trusting or not trusting this person, however, doesn't necessarily require that they DO anything more than associate with suspicious people and organizations.

i just figured if a person is part of a group that condones terrorizing and murdering folks based on race, it would make that person a bad person, period. Sounds simple enough. In this case, you're probably right.

Those who benefited from the kindness of KKK members might have a different opinion, though.

[Tages]

is it possible for a guy to be good despite the fact that he's associated with a hate group that terrorizes others?
Good people fought in the German army for the Nazis.

Good people fought for Stalin.

Good people fought for Tojo.

Good people fought for the US government in the Indian Wars.

Good people fight for bad causes all the time. It's one of the many complexities of humanity that I don't think we'll ever quite figure out.

[Winslow]

Good people fought in the German army for the Nazis.

Good people fought for Stalin.

Good people fought for Tojo.

Good people fought for the US government in the Indian Wars.

Good people fight for bad causes all the time. It's one of the many complexities of humanity that I don't think we'll ever quite figure out.

Hmmmm that's an interesting point.

But the KKK are cultural deviants (I hope) - whereas in all the examples you cited, the "good" people were caught up in a cultural "blind spot."

[Tages]

Hmmmm that's an interesting point.

But the KKK are cultural deviants (I hope) - whereas in all the examples you cited, the "good" people were caught up in a cultural "blind spot."
*shrugs* Well, of course examples may differ, YMMV. Of course the Klan is a malicious organization that seeks to do harm, though they've grown (thankfully) more impotent and toothless with the passage of time. I just hope that whatever decent human beings vacate their membership ASAP and realize the mistake they've made.

[Spike-X]

is it possible for a guy to be good despite the fact that he's associated with a hate group that terrorizes others?

No.

The KKK is a "peaceful organisation" in the same way that Fr*d Ph*lps and his followers are "good Christians".

[west3man]

Hmmmm that's an interesting point.

But the KKK are cultural deviants (I hope) - whereas in all the examples you cited, the "good" people were caught up in a cultural "blind spot."
Well-phrased.

It's tough for people to see other people in layers. It's easier to just paint them as "good" or "bad." I'm a "people," too, so I'm not immune to it. I just wish more people were more self-aware and took appropriate steps toward self-improvement.

[Spike-X]

Of course the Klan is a malicious organization that seeks to do harm, though they've grown (thankfully) more impotent and toothless with the passage of time.

Just like their members!

[Dreadstar]

I'm thinking it would hinge on intent. I'm not sure you can join a group like the KKK or the Black Muslims of the 60's without some bad intent in joining. I mean, it's not like the people who sign(ed) up thought it was going to be an ice-cream social organization.

So, I'd have to say, if you join a hate group like either of the two above with the foreknowledge that they ARE a hate group, then no, you can't be a completely good person and be a member at the same time.

[Alex]

I suppose you could be a person incredibly ignorant of a groups intentions, and only be involved in their good events (Like bake sales or whatever... I dunno, iowa doesn't have a huge kkk presense) and still be a good person.
But you wouldn't really be a member of the group then, just a member in name.

[west3man]

I suppose you could be a person incredibly ignorant of a groups intentions, and only be involved in their good events (Like bake sales or whatever... I dunno, iowa doesn't have a huge kkk presense) and still be a good person.
But you wouldn't really be a member of the group then, just a member in name.
You could be there to change the group from the inside out.

The group could be something other than its reputation suggests.

[Mike Smash!]

Good people fought in the German army for the Nazis.

Good people fought for Stalin.

Good people fought for Tojo.

Good people fought for the US government in the Indian Wars.

Good people fight for bad causes all the time. It's one of the many complexities of humanity that I don't think we'll ever quite figure out.But those were governments, not clubs.

You can be born into Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany. You have to join the Ku Klux Klan.

[Tages]

But those were governments, not clubs.

You can be born into Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany. You have to join the Ku Klux Klan.
Plenty of those people joined their constituent militaries, too.

In addition, really, it is possible that a person could join the Klan as a vituperative racist and eventually grow disillusioned with them, in which case a good person belongs to the Klan until they (here's hoping) quit.

[Dreadstar]

In addition, really, it is possible that a person could join the Klan as a vituperative racist and eventually grow disillusioned with them, in which case a good person belongs to the Klan until they (here's hoping) quit.

I'm thinking that in order to bring it full circle and become that mythical "good person" the quitting would have to be part of the "becoming."

[Tages]

I'm thinking that in order to bring it full circle and become that mythical "good person" the quitting would have to be part of the "becoming."
Well, I hate to sound like the plot of a USA made-for-TV movie, but it isn't always that simple. Certain groups have ways of making sure you don't leave.

[macul]

Maybe it is possible, but I'm struggling to see how. Maybe the person is just ignorant or thinks they are serving a greater good somehow. I dunno. I'm not sure how you can join a hate group and have knowledge of their beliefs and actions, and still be a good person.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think it's possible for a person to willingly join a hate group without being a completely bad or evil person, but I really don't see how a person could actively take part in such a group and be considered a good person.

For example, some people who aren't really racists join up with racial gangs in prison, for reason of self-defense. Being a loner leaves one too vulnerable to predation. Now, while most in prison are not particularly good people in the first place, there are some - minor drug offenders, for example - who are not hardcore bad people. And, rather than getting shivved or raped daily in prison, such folk may join up with the Aryan Brotherhood (if white) or some similar group. Doing so doesn't make him a bad person, but actually being part of such a group pretty much necessitates actions which I'd say disqualify one from being a good person.

Note also I'm not saying the AB is full of nice guys. Most AB members are world-class scumbags - racists and hardcore, violent, dangerous career criminals. But not all of them.

I imagine that in the 60s, some white folk in the South and elsewhere probably felt social pressure to join up with the KKK, short of actually being forced to join. Such folk may not have been bad people, but by taking part in KKK activities, they drifted far from being good people.

[Jerry W. Loper]

A lot of Democrats seem to be OK with Senator Robert Byrd being a former member of the KKK.

[Pepsigirl]

A lot of Democrats seem to be OK with Senator Robert Byrd being a former member of the KKK.

This thread is officially ruined.

[K'Nort]

I do not think it is possible for a member of a hate group to be a good person. I do think it is possible for them to separately do good things.

[Sanagi]

A person can be basically kind and well-meaning but also woefully ignorant. In fact, this is often the case.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

This thread is officially ruined.
i'm sure that was his intentions.................

[spoon_jenkins]

First, I think it's important to separate some of the other hypotheticals floating around from what this mayor said about Killen. He didn't argue that Killen was unaware of the KKK's misdeeds (so those hypotheticals aren't relevant to Killen), but rather that the KKK is a benign organization (so voluntary, knowing membership in it isn't wrong). Obviously, this is bullshit.

But I think the larger discussion of organized racism and evil (as well as stuff like lynching, which has been in the news recently) kind of connect up with why we don't have enough honest discourse on racism in America. Evil is always some marginalized thing lurking in the shadows and committed by society's pariahs. Sometimes evil is mainstream and it's cheered as it marches down main street.

Why was the KKK mainstream? Why would someone like a former mayor (not some guy in skid row) praise the KKK? How could lynchings occur in public attended by smiling men, women, and children? How did segregation survive under democratically elected governments?

It's because the "average" rank and file white citizens in many of these actions. But it's too disturbing for a lot of people to honestly deal with the fact that their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents (who may have been the people who taught them right and wrong) may have been supporters of atrocities. So they lie to themselves. And they don't do enough to make amends. And they blame the victim.

I think racial prejudice is a common thing, but it varies widely in degree from person to person. I think general evil and racial prejudice within a given person are tied to each (and affect each others extent) but don't have a 1 to 1 correlation.

So, for example, a person can be more evil regarding racial matters than in other matters in their lives, because the racial notions they were indocrinated with makes them less likely to think of the other person humanity than in other matters.

But, along the same lines, a basically good person (in general) could not be do a significant racist act (such as participating in the violence of a racist terrorist group). No matter how extensively you've been indoctrinated in a racist culture, one's general moral sense should kick in and block them from doing that act.

[west3man]

First, I think it's important to separate some of the other hypotheticals floating around from what this mayor said about Killen. He didn't argue that Killen was unaware of the KKK's misdeeds (so those hypotheticals aren't relevant to Killen), but rather that the KKK is a benign organization (so voluntary, knowing membership in it isn't wrong). Obviously, this is bullshit.

But I think the larger discussion of organized racism and evil (as well as stuff like lynching, which has been in the news recently) kind of connect up with why we don't have enough honest discourse on racism in America. Evil is always some marginalized thing lurking in the shadows and committed by society's pariahs. Sometimes evil is mainstream and it's cheered as it marches down main street.

Why was the KKK mainstream? Why would someone like a former mayor (not some guy in skid row) praise the KKK? How could lynchings occur in public attended by smiling men, women, and children? How did segregation survive under democratically elected governments?

It's because the "average" rank and file white citizens in many of these actions. But it's too disturbing for a lot of people to honestly deal with the fact that their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents (who may have been the people who taught them right and wrong) may have been supporters of atrocities. So they lie to themselves. And they don't do enough to make amends. And they blame the victim.

I think racial prejudice is a common thing, but it varies widely in degree from person to person. I think general evil and racial prejudice within a given person are tied to each (and affect each others extent) but don't have a 1 to 1 correlation.

So, for example, a person can be more evil regarding racial matters than in other matters in their lives, because the racial notions they were indocrinated with makes them less likely to think of the other person humanity than in other matters.

But, along the same lines, a basically good person (in general) could not be do a significant racist act (such as participating in the violence of a racist terrorist group). No matter how extensively you've been indoctrinated in a racist culture, one's general moral sense should kick in and block them from doing that act. Great response.

Whether the group had a name or not, there were quite a few who were a members.

Bah. I'll stop there, b/c you said it better, anyway.

[spoon_jenkins]

Good people fought in the German army for the Nazis.

Good people fought for Stalin.

Good people fought for Tojo.

Good people fought for the US government in the Indian Wars.

Good people fight for bad causes all the time. It's one of the many complexities of humanity that I don't think we'll ever quite figure out.
Like someone else wrote, there are some differences between fighting for a national government and fighting for a terrorist group with a specific agenda. The KKK was created by people seeking a certain agenda. In contrast, a nation may be largely defined by a territory and a population.

That's not to say that a nation's military operations don't have an agenda, which may be evil. However, that may be mixed in with other national interests.

Sometimes, too, a nation may launch a war of aggression that a soldier wouldn't agree with, but as the war fails the soldier gets involved defend against invasion. So there's sort of a national self-preservation motive. The WASPs in the KKK generally weren't in a vulnerable position (despite revisionist efforts). They were the ones in control and tried to oppress the marginalized even more.

Sometimes a government hides its misdeeds, so a soldier doesn't know all the evils its government has perpetrated.

These remarks aren't intended to exonerate soldiers who fight on behalf of evil regimes, but to point out that the role in evil acts may not necessarily be the same as a KKK member.

But another important point is that the goodness of people isn't binary. We don't live in a world of completely good and completely evil people; it's a continuum. So if a person's action are generally good, but they knowingly participate in evil actions of their nation's military, why are they defined as a "good person"? By virtue of an evil action, they've slid partially down the moral continuum.

[Loren]

is it possible for a guy to be good despite the fact that he's associated with a hate group that terrorizes others?

If you turn the question around, it can be rephrased as "Are all people associated with hate groups bad?"

"Always" and "never" are usually best avoided when making generalizations, so I hesitate to say that all such people must be bad. I know that some Southern men joined the KKK back in the day because of peer pressure or out of some desire for fraternity, not because of some desire to hurt people.

and for that matter, is majure an idiot who lived in a cave or is he just living in a serious state of denial?

With regard to the "good things" comment, the terrorist organization Hezbollah actually does a fair share of good deeds. That is, when it's not trying to kill Jews. But one reason it's hard to convince some people that Hezbollah is bad is because they've been on the receiving end of the group's legitimate charity work.

But "peaceful organization"? Isn't aware of the KKK's ugly past? Either he's senile or he's just good friends with the defendant and wasn't being totally honest.

Loren

[Slappy san]

I'd have loved to have been in the courtroom when he said that.

[mgs]

i like to believe everyone is inheritently good, whether that be a natural instinct for preservation, religion or whatever, that is another conversation....but, I also believe that people can be misguided and make the wrong choices in life. doesn't mean they are necessarily a bad person, but also means that people have to be responsible for their own actions and be ready to pay the consequences for their actions.

also, once in a while, there are just people who seem to be plain evil from birth, charles manson, numerous serial killers, etc...

[Justin Davis]

It's late and I should really be in bed, but I have to say this before I sign off for the night.

Saturday, I was in Philadelphia, MS. Kristina and I were driving down a main road in the town on our way to a water park and then the casino for the continuation of my birthday festivities, when there was this sudden traffic jam. One lane was closed off and there were several news vans parked alongside the road.

"Is there a parade or something going on?"

"I guess."

It wasn't until we got home and saw the news that night that we figured out why the roads were blocked and the news vans parked next to buildings.

What can I say, this is not the first time that Killen and the 1964 slayings has made news here. I'm not sure how prevalent it is elsewhere, but it seems this guy and his horrific crimes pop up in the news at least once a year. I honestly thought he had been dealt with already. Sadly, last I heard, the jury is deadlocked after one day of deliberation.

[Spike-X]

Kristina and I were driving down a main road in the town on our way to a water park and then the casino for the continuation of my birthday festivities, when there was this sudden traffic jam. One lane was closed off and there were several news vans parked alongside the road.

"Is there a parade or something going on?"

"I guess."

"I hate Illinois Nazis".

[DarlingNikki]

there have been some good points made and it has definitely done much to clear up this issue with me. I agree with spoon jenkins that ultimately, there is no definitive list of what makes a person bad or good. because this case hits so close to home, it is difficult for me to view this man as a good person. however, i was thinking about the andy sipowitz character from nypd blue when i was trying to decide on how racism affects people and whether or not being racist makes a person bad without question. he started off as a blantantly racist cop but that didn't mean he wasn't trying to protect only white people. also, as he grew older, his views changed the more he was around black folk. there is education in exposure and interaction, which is something i doubt white folks back during the time when the kkk was dominant had a chance to do when it came to black folk.

i also remember the movie crash where that racist cop saved that black woman's life...the same woman he harassed earlier in the movie. while he definitely had hatred towards her based on her affluence and race, ultimately race was not an issue when it came to saving a life. he put himself in danger, regardless of the skin color of the victim. and he was selfless when it came to his father, who was struggling with a debilitating desease.

i know those are fictional characters, but i'm sure there are folks out there in the real world just like those two examples.

in the case of this guy who was a member of the kkk, i guess i really had no idea of how much pressure was put on white male members of the community to join the kkk, but it makes sense that many folks would feel pressure to join, considering how violent the kkk was and the protection it offered to its members at that time.

i would love to say this guy is just plain evil. however, i can't. i can say that he was a part of an evil organization, though. hopefully in the long life he was afforded, he realized that race was not something to hate someone over.

[Nate C.]

But those were governments, not clubs.

You can be born into Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany. You have to join the Ku Klux Klan.

Trust me, your'e born into militant racism.

[Mike Smash!]

Trust me, your'e born into militant racism.Yeah, but you can still be a virilent racist without putting on the hood and burning crosses and harrassing black people.

Just as you can be very politically aware and incredibly liberal/conservative without joining a political party.

[bfrank]

This thread is officially ruined.
I'd like to see his point addressed....lots of democrats don't seem to have a problem with it....

[Tages]

I'd like to see his point addressed....lots of democrats don't seem to have a problem with it....
Is he a member now? Does he say positive things about the Klan? While a member of the Klan, did he commit any violent felony offenses?

If the answer to all these questions is "No," I don't care. And I'm far from a Democrat.

[DarlingNikki]

I'd like to see his point addressed....lots of democrats don't seem to have a problem with it....

thank goodness i'm not a democrat.

[Dennis K]

One may not be the best person they can be at the time they are in a hate group, but that doesn't mean they won't become a "good person" in the course of time.

[Mike Smash!]

thank goodness i'm not a democrat.Preach it, Nikki! :D

[bfrank]

Is he a member now? Does he say positive things about the Klan? While a member of the Klan, did he commit any violent felony offenses?

If the answer to all these questions is "No," I don't care. And I'm far from a Democrat.
Good for you! However, I doubt that anyone, especially democrats, would ever allow a republician that leway...and I'm still trying to figure out why the thread was messed up because it was brought up...

[Mike Smash!]

Good for you! However, I doubt that anyone, especially democrats, would ever allow a republician that leway...and I'm still trying to figure out why the thread was messed up because it was brought up...Because it was an obvious opening to an off-topic partisan free-for-all, that's why!

[Dreadstar]

I think Papergirl was making a comment on the inevitability of someone turning the discussion political, thus derailing the previous train of discussion. (Mine own interpretation, admittedly)

Thank god that hasn't happened... yet...


EDIT: Or you could be more succinct, like Mike...

[Ed Cunard]

Good for you! However, I doubt that anyone, especially democrats, would ever allow a republician that leway...and I'm still trying to figure out why the thread was messed up because it was brought up...

Not to put words in the original poster's mouth, but there tends to be a trend towards a great deal of dialogue* between hardcore members of both parties on this board once anything remotely political gets broken down into a sporting event: Democrats Vs. Republicans.

As a Democrat myself, it's pretty much like Tages said--the word "former" is the operative word in that sentence. And, as a Pennsylvanian, I don't really have any recourse in regards to who gets elected in other states (both of mine are Republicans, and I like the one and despise the other).

Although if he was still active in it, and all that that implies, I wouldn't mind watching him get trampled by a herd of passing six-legged, two-weinered dogs (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=64202).

Also, I was happy to see the guy who inspired this thread got convicted.


*And, by "dialogue," I mean a lot of "You suck!" "No, you suck!" "No, for real, you suck more than something that sucks A LOT!", obscured with words big and small. And I'm guilty of it too, but I'm trying to kick the habit.

[spoon_jenkins]

Good for you! However, I doubt that anyone, especially democrats, would ever allow a republician that leway...and I'm still trying to figure out why the thread was messed up because it was brought up...
Aside from what others said:

1) The Robert Byrd thing has been dealt with in several threads, so I'm sure lots of folks are tired of it.

2) I'm guessing people prefer honest discussion rather than jumping through hoops for someone's amusement. Jerry W. Loper (at least under his current user name) has never posted anything showing concern about anti-black racism or anything like that. He's never shown any concern about concern about Republican involvement in racist groups (including in recent years). Yet he's concerned about some Democrat who was in the KKK decades ago (oh wait, he also used the word "nigger" in a recent interview to note that being a jackass transcends race) but whose voting record was rate 100% by the NAACP in 2003-2004. Loper does have a record of pro-Republican posting.

So how many people in a thread discussing racism want to deal with a post that seems not to be able racism but about Republican political tactics.