Is god the imaginary friend of adults

[Motormouse]

Is god the imaginary friend of adults: Discuss

I'm not actually trying to piss anyone off but i over heard an aging hippie at Avebury for the solstice wonder this aloud. :eek:

[west3man]

Is god the imaginary friend of adults: Discuss
Sometimes I think that's the case.

It's an interesting way to frame spirituality/religion, I'll tell you that. I could certainly see it being offensive to many, too. I'm not sure if there's any other way to ask the question - a way that doesn't make the same implications.

Maybe this is the blurry area in my "fairy tale" vs. "belief" outlook. I'd be interested in seeing some other opinions.

[Nate C.]

Is god the imaginary friend of adults: Discuss

I'm not actually trying to piss anyone off but i over heard an aging hippie at Avebury for the solstice wonder this aloud. :eek:

Motormouse,

Yes.

Bizaronate

[sixstringguild]

Here's what GOD has to say about this:

Psalm 14

1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

[Wesley Dodds]

1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.


And, of course, because he's God he doesn't feel the need to give any evidence to back up his claim.

[MacQuarrie]

Is god the imaginary friend of adults: Discuss

I'm not actually trying to piss anyone off but i over heard an aging hippie at Avebury for the solstice wonder this aloud. :eek:
For someone who is supposedly "not actually trying to piss anyone off" you did an excellent job.

This is my last post int his thread. Just as with Jeffrey's thread about the Terry Schiavo case, any possibility of intelligent and civil discussion has been prevented by the attitude of the opening post.

[Winslow]

I find it much more existenialist and profound to wonder if we're God's imaginary play friends . . .

[The Mirrorball Man]

If he's an imaginary friend for adults, he certainly has a much deeper influence on the way we live that the kind of imaginary friends children usually have. He's the imaginary friend that inspired the Crusades, the Sistine Chapel, the Battle of Uhud, the Kabbalah, Bach's St. Matthew Passion, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, Hafez' poetry, etc.

The metaphor is cute, and it certainly addresses part of the issue, but in my opinion, it's a small part. Whether we believe in God or not, it's hard to deny that the concept of a divine being has been so crucial to the development (and the fall) of so many civilizations that it's much more than a mere "imaginary friend".

[Michael P]

I find it much more existenialist and profound to wonder if we're God's imaginary play friends . . .
<Spicoli>Dude...</Spicoli>

[Guapo Méndez]

Is god the imaginary friend of adults: Discuss



To reduce someone's beliefs -for many core beliefs- to the adult equivalent of a childhood fantasy?

Aging hippie aside, you couldn't be more offensive if you tried.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I believe that hypothesis is essentially correct, though with the important caveat that religious beliefs are largely impacted and instilled by cultural influence, while typical "imaginary friends" are a much more personal and individual experience.

[JeffreyWKramer]

This is my last post int his thread. Just as with Jeffrey's thread about the Terry Schiavo case, any possibility of intelligent and civil discussion has been prevented by the attitude of the opening post.

Sorry you feel that way, Jim. From what I remember of your stance on the Schiavo case, you're someone I see having a legitimate stand, as yours was based on a universal moral stance, as opposed to the clearly untrue things and in some cases obvious lies Frist and others were promoting about Ms. Schiavo's medical condition and chances for recovery, Mr. Schiavo being abusive to her, etc.

Saying euthanasia is wrong is a defensible and rightly debatable stance, and certainly nothing requiring an apology. Those who said things which are factually untrue, though - not to mention those who wrongfully pushed Federal power into places beyond its jurisdiction - there, I think an apology is definitely due.

[Tages]

And, of course, because he's God he doesn't feel the need to give any evidence to back up his claim.
Seeing as God could fundamentally alter the nature of reality at any time He wants, but chooses not to, my answer would be "exactly."

[west3man]

This is my last post int his thread. Just as with Jeffrey's thread about the Terry Schiavo case, any possibility of intelligent and civil discussion has been prevented by the attitude of the opening post.
Doesn't say much for past and future responses.

[west3man]

Seeing as God could fundamentally alter the nature of reality at any time He wants, but chooses not to, my answer would be "exactly."
Another way to go would be "convenient." Do you see that?

Agreeing with it is another matter, of course.

[MacQuarrie]

Sorry you feel that way, Jim. From what I remember of your stance on the Schiavo case, you're someone I see having a legitimate stand, as yours was based on a universal moral stance, as opposed to the clearly untrue things and in some cases obvious lies Frist and others were promoting about Ms. Schiavo's medical condition and chances for recovery, Mr. Schiavo being abusive to her, etc.

Saying euthanasia is wrong is a defensible and rightly debatable stance, and certainly nothing requiring an apology. Those who said things which are factually untrue, though - not to mention those who wrongfully pushed Federal power into places beyond its jurisdiction - there, I think an apology is definitely due.
I did post a response in the other "last" thread. I chose not to post in yours because I felt your opening post was one that implied "dissenting opinions are unwelcome." The topic was not about the case so much as an invitation to dogpile on the opposition.

Much like this thread.

Oh well, what the hell, let's go ahead and address what's wrong with this thread, even though I said I was going to stay out of it.

The opening question in the title assumes facts not in evidence, and then goes on to ask how much we wish to insult the people who disagree. Another way to phrase the question, just about as accurately but more honestly, would be:

"We all know God doesn't exist, so how much can we insult those morons who believe in him?"

The first statement in the opening post is one of those mealy-mouth copouts that attempts to excuse premeditated rudeness by pretending to sort of apologize for it in order to put the offended parties on the defensive. The person who posted it is right; he didn't want to offend people.... he merely wanted to create an opportunity and issue an invitation for others to offend them. And he chose to do it in a cowardly way by passing the buck and putting his obnoxious opinon in the mouth of some unspecified third party in order to divert the justifiable negative response away from his own gutless self. Totally contemptible. This is a person I will never engage in conversation.

Okay, I've said my piece. The thread is open, the invitation has been issued. Dogpile on religious people can begin now.

We all know that God doesn't really exist, so how much can we insult and belittle believers and still pretend we are a civilized and tolerant society?

[TheAvatar]

God is the biggest running gag of all time

[MacQuarrie]

Doesn't say much for past and future responses.
I didn't read any past the first one, and have no intention of doing so.

[Tages]

Another way to go would be "convenient." Do you see that?
Naturally. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism)

[TheAvatar]

I didn't read any past the first one, and have no intention of doing so.


Then why reply? to say you aren't going to read? :\

[Tages]

God is the biggest running gag of all time
Wow, that's like, so profound and it adds so much to the discussion.

Wait, no it doesn't. My mistake.

[TheAvatar]

Wow, that's like, so profound and it adds so much to the discussion.

Wait, no it doesn't. My mistake.


It doesn't need to be profound, if I actually went into depth I'd have a lot of people whining and flaming, my statement was direct and to the point

[Tages]

It doesn't need to be profound, if I actually went into depth I'd have a lot of people whining and flaming, my statement was direct and to the point
Ah, apologies then. I will follow suit.

Without God, no Catholic Church.

Without the Catholic Church, no monasteries.

Without monasteries, no colleges/universities.

Without colleges/universities, no Western Civilization.

Direct, non?

[TheAvatar]

Ah, apologies then. I will follow suit.

Without God, no Catholic Church.

Without the Catholic Church, no monasteries.

Without monasteries, no colleges/universities.

Without colleges/universities, no Western Civilization.

Direct, non?


Well, except the catholic church has existed for ages without "god"

all that stuff might not turn out exactly the way it has, but I dont doubt we still wouldn't have schools etc. I mean, there are schools where god specifically is not allowed


the metaphysical realm basically shows either god doesnt exist or he is severely exagerated, i.e he isnt omnipotent or all knowing, and there is no heaven or hell

[west3man]

The opening question in the title assumes facts not in evidence, The question, "Is god the imaginary friend of adults" assumes nothing.

The answer could be "yes" or "no." It could also be "I don't know," which some may consider to be the only "true and accurate response."

One could opt to focus on the potentially offensive statement in your first, and only (at the time), post in this thread... ...any possibility of intelligent and civil discussion has been prevented by the attitude of the opening post. I'd say that's far more assumptive than the question in the title and first post of this thread.

...or one could consider the possibility that you didn't mean it in a negative way.

[Dreadstar]

It doesn't need to be profound, if I actually went into depth I'd have a lot of people whining and flaming, my statement was direct and to the point

Oh I don't know about that. You're underestimating your audience, or being outright dismissive.

Go ahead. Go into depth. Just don't be insulting, and I'm sure you'll get some thoughtful responses in return.


THIS:

God is the biggest running gag of all time

Will by FAR garner you more flame than honest discussion ever would.

[west3man]

I didn't read any past the first one, and have no intention of doing so.
NOt the point.

In an odd way, though, it kinda is.

[Tages]

Well, except the catholic church has existed for ages without "god"
Wow, this one is up there with the guy who told me, in all seriousness, "People didn't know Hitler was behind World War II for a couple years either."

the metaphysical realm basically shows either god doesnt exist or he is severely exagerated, i.e he isnt omnipotent or all knowing, and there is no heaven or hell
Really, the "metaphysical realm" shows us this? What is the metaphysical realm, then?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Ah, apologies then. I will follow suit.

Without God, no Catholic Church.

Without the Catholic Church, no monasteries.

Without monasteries, no colleges/universities.

Without colleges/universities, no Western Civilization.

Direct, non?


Western Civilization would no doubt have taken a different *form* without the existence of the Church, but we have no way of knowing whether the actual result would have been a better one, a worse one or (unlikely) largely the same.

[Dreadstar]

The question, "Is god the imaginary friend of adults" assumes nothing.

Actually, it does.

How about this, then?

"Is Wiccanism the refuge of an immoral society?"

The juxtaposition is suggestive. And intentionally so, as Jim points out.

[Tages]

all that stuff might not turn out exactly the way it has, but I dont doubt we still wouldn't have schools etc. I mean, there are schools where god specifically is not allowed
That is putting it lightly. Without religion, Western Civilization as we know it would have turned out entirely differently, and almost certainly to the detriment of science, scholarship, and knowledge in general.

[Tages]

Western Civilization would no doubt have taken a different *form* without the existence of the Church, but we have no way of knowing whether the actual result would have been a better one, a worse one or (unlikely) largely the same.
See above.

[west3man]

Naturally. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism)
If I understood your point, the following might be considered to be "convenient":


" * Christian theology teaches that people are saved by faith.
* But, if God's existence can be proven, either empirically or logically, faith becomes irrelevant.
* Therefore, if Christian theology is true, no proof of God's existence is possible."

First, I agree that it is rather convenient. I also recognize that convenience does not necessarily falsification.

Secondly, I don't believe the first two things demonstrate the third thing.

Being saved by faith means that proof makes faith irrelevant, according to the above. Assuming this means that this proof is shared with any and everyone, then faith would be nonexistent, to be more precise.

The eradication of faith, however, is not the same thing as the eradication of an omnipotent being. That kinda contradicts His or Her omnipotence.

[TheAvatar]

Oh I don't know about that. You're underestimating your audience, or being outright dismissive.

Go ahead. Go into depth. Just don't be insulting, and I'm sure you'll get some thoughtful responses in return.


THIS:



Will by FAR garner you more flame than honest discussion ever would.


As you wish

How many of you are familiar with astral projection? the metaphysical realm? or the different planes of existence

basically, this metaphysical realm is where everyone goes when they are asleep, this is where idea's come from, the ability to "project" into this realm consciously is coveted and a number of people can do it, actually anyone can with practice, but few lack the desire or drive

In this realm god is all but disproved, you can encounter various spirits (from the spirit of a loving relative, to the spirit of adolf hitler) and various other entities, right there goes the whole "heaven and hell" bit right out the door, so If there is a God, why is he lying to us? it's the equivalent of telling your kid if he doesnt goto bed soon or eat his vegetables the boogey man will get him, this is where all spirits go good or evil

If you do research, use of projection goes back to the second world war, maybe even the first, using this to gains all kind of secrets, also projecting can open you up to a number of new abilities, precog, clairvoyance, remote viewing, the possibilities are endless and I could even go into further detail but I'll wait till people address this

[west3man]

Ah, apologies then. I will follow suit.

Without God, no Catholic Church.

Without the Catholic Church, no monasteries.

Without monasteries, no colleges/universities.

Without colleges/universities, no Western Civilization.

Direct, non?
All this seems to be based on an ironic assumption.

[TheAvatar]

Wow, this one is up there with the guy who told me, in all seriousness, "People didn't know Hitler was behind World War II for a couple years either."

except you misunderstood, My point was, how long is it been since someone has claimed to actually speak to god? or his messengers?

in the bible you can come across many accounts of god talking to people, or his servants, but even going back to centuries ago there aren't MANY cases of this, thus God hasn't truly been there, in their minds he has yes

[Tages]

If I understood your point, the following might be considered to be "convenient":


" * Christian theology teaches that people are saved by faith.
* But, if God's existence can be proven, either empirically or logically, faith becomes irrelevant.
* Therefore, if Christian theology is true, no proof of God's existence is possible."

First, I agree that it is rather convenient. I also recognize that convenience does not necessarily falsification.

Secondly, I don't believe the first two things demonstrate the third thing.

Being saved by faith means that proof makes faith irrelevant, according to the above. Assuming this means that this proof is shared with any and everyone, then faith would be nonexistent, to be more precise.

The eradication of faith, however, is not the same thing as the eradication of an omnipotent being. That kinda contradicts His or Her omnipotence.
Ye Olde ADD Medication has yet to take effect. I read the above, I understood what the individual words meant, yet the meaning of the whole eludes my understanding. I linked to the wikipedia entry on fideism because it provides an alternative to what you were suggesting.

[west3man]

Actually, it does.

How about this, then?

"Is Wiccanism the refuge of an immoral society?"

The juxtaposition is suggestive. And intentionally so, as Jim points out.So, "Wiccanism" is to "god" what "an immoral society" is to "adults?"

I don't think it does.

[Tages]

except you misunderstood, My point was, how long is it been since someone has claimed to actually speak to god? or his messengers?

in the bible you can come across many accounts of god talking to people, or his servants, but even going back to centuries ago there aren't MANY cases of this, thus God hasn't truly been there, in their minds he has yes
I talk to God all the time. So do billions of people. Every day.

[west3man]

Ye Olde ADD Medication has yet to take effect. I read the above, I understood what the individual words meant, yet the meaning of the whole eludes my understanding. I linked to the wikipedia entry on fideism because it provides an alternative to what you were suggesting.
Big page.

If you'd just say what you mean, I'd appreciate it.

[Tages]

All this seems to be based on an ironic assumption.
Research, actually. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260387/lewrockwell/104-8523169-3965549)

[TheAvatar]

I talk to God all the time. So do billions of people. Every day.


ok, back that statement up, show me god was listening, until then, god might of been with you in spirit or in your mind, but it doesnt mean he's really there

[JeffreyWKramer]

That is putting it lightly. Without religion, Western Civilization as we know it would have turned out entirely differently, and almost certainly to the detriment of science, scholarship, and knowledge in general.

I don't think one can really support this statement based on facts - we just don't know either way.

What we do know is that a lot of the work of the important Greek and Roman thinkers was archived in the Middle East during a time when such writings were being mostly ignored - when not actively suppressed - in much of Europe. Many forget that for centuries in which Eurpoeans were going about killing other Europeans in political and religious struggles and witch hunts, the Middle East was a land in which science, architecture, math and philosophy flourished. This eventually changed as religious and cultural factors turned the Islamic world more inward, but much of the impetus for said change was incursion from Europe.

We simply don't know what would have happened.

[Dreadstar]

As you wish

How many of you are familiar with astral projection? the metaphysical realm? or the different planes of existence

basically, this metaphysical realm is where everyone goes when they are asleep, this is where idea's come from, the ability to "project" into this realm consciously is coveted and a number of people can do it, actually anyone can with practice, but few lack the desire or drive

In this realm god is all but disproved, you can encounter various spirits (from the spirit of a loving relative, to the spirit of adolf hitler) and various other entities, right there goes the whole "heaven and hell" bit right out the door, so If there is a God, why is he lying to us? it's the equivalent of telling your kid if he doesnt goto bed soon or eat his vegetables the boogey man will get him, this is where all spirits go good or evil

If you do research, use of projection goes back to the second world war, maybe even the first, using this to gains all kind of secrets, also projecting can open you up to a number of new abilities, precog, clairvoyance, remote viewing, the possibilities are endless and I could even go into further detail but I'll wait till people address this

Interesting. But I'm thinking that without concrete proof, I'd have to put this in the same realm as god. Both require a lot of faith to believe. I honestly don't see any greater reason to believe the above quote than to believe in god.

[west3man]

Research, actually. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260387/lewrockwell/104-8523169-3965549)
God's existence, actually.

If you actually meant the *concept* of God, well that's a different story.

[west3man]

Interesting. But I'm thinking that without concrete proof, I'd have to put this in the same realm as god. Both require a lot of faith to believe. I honestly don't see any greater reason to believe the above quote than to believe in god.
What Dread said.

[Tages]

Big page.

If you'd just say what you mean, I'd appreciate it.
You find it "convenient." Fine. I'm telling you that the "convenience" ties into a certain view regarding the nature of His existence, so it's not as if I'm rationalizing thin air into golden thread, here.

[JeffreyWKramer]

How many of you are familiar with astral projection? the metaphysical realm? or the different planes of existence

basically, this metaphysical realm is where everyone goes when they are asleep, this is where idea's come from, the ability to "project" into this realm consciously is coveted and a number of people can do it, actually anyone can with practice, but few lack the desire or drive


Dude, I think the concept of God is drivel, but I've seen no more evidence for astral projection than I have for God.

Using one unlikely and baseless proposition to attack another isn't exactly the height of logical thinking. Logically, your argument is along the line of "Who's cooler, Vishnu or Zeus? I say Vishnu!" "Well, I say Zeus would kick Vishnu's ass!!"

[Dreadstar]

So, "Wiccanism" is to "god" what "an immoral society" is to "adults?"

I don't think it does.

No, no, no, you're being literal again. Stop that.

It's the JUXTAPOSITION. It's the framing with leading phrasing.

[TheAvatar]

Interesting. But I'm thinking that without concrete proof, I'd have to put this in the same realm as god. Both require a lot of faith to believe. I honestly don't see any greater reason to believe the above quote than to believe in god.


Well true, but there are a number of projectors in the world, a number of people who have experienced this first hand, can you say the same for god? there are also a number of websites out there about it..though not all are correct on the subject

the point is, a lot of people can say they have been to the metaphysical realm, even "seen" it, again..the same can't be said for god

[TheAvatar]

Dude, I think the concept of God is drivel, but I've seen no more evidence for astral projection than I have for God.

except for the countless number of people who have experienced projection, and the countless number of people who have seen god..oh wait..



Using one unlikely and baseless proposition to attack another isn't exactly the height of logical thinking. Logically, your argument is along the line of "Who's cooler, Vishnu or Zeus? I say Vishnu!" "Well, I say Zeus would kick Vishnu's ass!!"

Wow, way to be totally wrong, how does it come across as saying who is cooler? i simply replied with my opinion on the matter

[JeffreyWKramer]

the point is, a lot of people can say they have been to the metaphysical realm, even "seen" it, again..the same can't be said for god


Lots of people also claim to have felt the presence of God, or received divine insight or have witnessed miracles.

The amount of objective evidence for these claims is on the same level - i.e., nonexistent - with that for the existence of astral projection and your "metaphysical realms."

[west3man]

You find it "convenient." Fine. I'm telling you that the "convenience" ties into a certain view regarding the nature of His existence, so it's not as if I'm rationalizing thin air into golden thread, here.
I responded to a group of statements which seemed to be central to that point. When that medication kicks in or I find a clearer way of phrasing it, please let me know what you think.


By the way, this all resulted from my asking you if you could see how a previous statement could be considered "convenient" - whether you agreed that it was or not. "Naturally" sounded like you could see it, but the link attached to the word was supposed to present an alternative to the word, itself.

Confusing.

[macul]

ok, back that statement up, show me god was listening, until then, god might of been with you in spirit or in your mind, but it doesnt mean he's really there

Can you back up your statement that astral projection is real and is proof there is no god? You want to disprove the belief of one faith that lacks scientific proof by using another??

[Dreadstar]

Well true, but there are a number of projectors in the world, a number of people who have experienced this first hand, can you say the same for god?
I don't know what a "projector" is, but as to the second? Yes. I know a LOT of people who say they have experienced god first hand. A helluva lot more than those who say they've experienced the so-called "metaphysical plane" anyway.


the point is, a lot of people can say they have been to the metaphysical realm, even "seen" it, again..the same can't be said for god

Yes, it can. You can go right out on the street right now and within 5 minutes find someone whjo is completely convinced that god has spoken to them, that they have "experienced" god. Their word is NO LESS VALID than the word of someone who claims to have visited the "meatphysical realm" since neither seems to be able to put forth any scientific eveindednce to support their claims.

[TheAvatar]

Can you back up your statement that astral projection is real and is proof there is no god? You want to disprove the belief of one faith that lacks scientific proof by using another??


Oh, i can point you to a various number of people who have also projected, but you'd probably have to do it yourself to fullly comprehend it

[west3man]

No, no, no, you're being literal again. Stop that.

It's the JUXTAPOSITION. It's the framing with leading phrasing.
"Framing with leading phrasing" is not necessarily the same thing as "assum[ing] facts not in evidence," just as a ( EDITED to add: ) bird is not necessarily the same thing as an ostrich.

The reverse can be true, though.

[macul]

Well true, but there are a number of projectors in the world, a number of people who have experienced this first hand, can you say the same for god? there are also a number of websites out there about it..though not all are correct on the subject

the point is, a lot of people can say they have been to the metaphysical realm, even "seen" it, again..the same can't be said for god

There are people who claimed they've communicated with god. And really, just because something is on the Internet doesn't make it true.

[Dreadstar]

Oh, i can point you to a various number of people who have also projected, but you'd probably have to do it yourself to fullly comprehend it

Oh, i can point you to a various number of people who have also experienced god, but you'd probably have to do it yourself to fullly comprehend it

[Tages]

I don't think one can really support this statement based on facts - we just don't know either way.
Then the statement "Jonas Salk saved millions of people by developing the polio vaccine" also applies. We don't know that. Someone could have been just behind him in developing the vaccine. We could discover years from now that the vaccine actually caused a rare heart condition that may have killed more than it saved. You can go on being the skeptic. I choose differently.

What we do know is that a lot of the work of the important Greek and Roman thinkers was archived in the Middle East during a time when such writings were being mostly ignored - when not actively suppressed - in much of Europe. Many forget that for centuries in which Eurpoeans were going about killing other Europeans in political and religious struggles and witch hunts, the Middle East was a land in which science, architecture, math and philosophy flourished. This eventually changed as religious and cultural factors turned the Islamic world more inward, but much of the impetus for said change was incursion from Europe.
All mainstream history, all popular assumptions with adherence that has been slipping steadily for the past half a century. Scholars such as J.L. Heilbron, A.C. Crombie, David Lindberg, Stanley Jaki, Edward Grant, and Thomas Goldstein have contributed voluminous work showing that medieval Europe in general and the Christian institutions in particular were far, far more advanced than we used to believe.

We simply don't know what would have happened.
Not for sure, of course not. But we do know what was responsible for the survival of Western sciences, art and intellect. Christianity was responsible for much more of it than secularists will ever give it credit for.

[TheAvatar]

I don't know what a "projector" is, but as to the second? Yes. I know a LOT of people who say they have experienced god first hand. A helluva lot more than those who say they've experienced the so-called "metaphysical plane" anyway.

they can say they have experienced him all they want, for example : someone has a near death experience but survives? lets blame it on god, yet when two planes crash into the twin towers..who is to blame there?

I dont doubt people can feel like god is there, but it doesnt mean he is, there are several books, tapes, etc. all dedicated to projecting into the metaphysical realm, show me a book where it shows how to meet god? and i mean LITERALLY, not in your mind





Yes, it can. You can go right out on the street right now and within 5 minutes find someone whjo is completely convinced that god has spoken to them, that they have "experienced" god. Their word is NO LESS VALID than the word of someone who claims to have visited the "meatphysical realm" since neither seems to be able to put forth any scientific eveindednce to support their claims.


It isnt that simple, im not simply having a devine experience, and of course i cant give 100% proof, nobody can

[Tages]

Double post due to the server bugging out. Please ignore.

[Sam]

Well true, but there are a number of projectors in the world, a number of people who have experienced this first hand, can you say the same for god?

I'd bet quite a bit of money that the number of people who claim first hand experience of God is greater than the number of people who claim first hand experience with astral projection.

[TheAvatar]

Oh, i can point you to a various number of people who have also experienced god, but you'd probably have to do it yourself to fullly comprehend it


haha, except its never the same, Ive seen instances where people who have never met can describe the same plane (there are different planes of existence, all with something different)

[Dreadstar]

"Framing with leading phrasing" is not necessarily the same thing as "assum[ing] facts not in evidence," just as a is not necessarily the same thing as an ostrich.

The reverse can be true, though.


I give up.

[macul]

Oh, i can point you to a various number of people who have also projected, but you'd probably have to do it yourself to fullly comprehend it

hhhmm...that sounds familiar. That sounds an awful lot like what most religious people say. Seriously, though. How can you even begin to use something that is backed by zero scientific evidence (astral projection) as "proof" that god doesn't exist.

[TheAvatar]

I'd bet quite a bit of money that the number of people who claim first hand experience of God is greater than the number of people who claim first hand experience with astral projection.


so people can give you great details of these experiences, like what god looked like? the smell, the surroundings, etc.? they can do that right? then i will back down

[Dreadstar]

It isnt that simple, im not simply having a devine experience, and of course i cant give 100% proof, nobody can


And therein lies the quandry, doesn't it?

[TheAvatar]

hhhmm...that sounds familiar. That sounds an awful lot like what most religious people say. Seriously, though. How can you even begin to use something that is backed by zero scientific evidence (astral projection) as "proof" that god doesn't exist.


No, its like i can tell you bunjee jumping is awesome, but you'll never truly know till you do it, doesnt mean bunjee jumping doesnt exist, theres just a certain number of people who choose not to experience it

[TheAvatar]

And therein lies the quandry, doesn't it?


I never said i could give definitive proof, not yet anyways, if I could I surely would and the time eventually will come when that happens, but until then..

[macul]

I dont doubt people can feel like god is there, but it doesnt mean he is, there are several books, tapes, etc. all dedicated to projecting into the metaphysical realm,

And I can find websites, books, et cetera that claim chi is real and can be manifested to allow teleportation, mind melding, chi blasts, et cetera. Doesn't mean it is real.


show me a book where it shows how to meet god? and i mean LITERALLY, not in your mind

The Bible? Maybe?

[macul]

haha, except its never the same, Ive seen instances where people who have never met can describe the same plane (there are different planes of existence, all with something different)

Yeah, you are correct there. I've never met two astral projectors who's descriptions of astral projection differed. Then again, I've never even met a single person who claimed astral projection is real (outside of you. I guess.).

[TheAvatar]

The Bible? Maybe?


you mean the most contradictory work of fiction ever created?

[Fabian]

Does this make Dr. Strange God?

[macul]

so people can give you great details of these experiences, like what god looked like? the smell, the surroundings, etc.? they can do that right? then i will back down

Since we aren't talking about a physical object here (a plant, rock, et cetera) I don't think you are going to get a description that includes smell.

[TheAvatar]

Yeah, you are correct there. I've never met two astral projectors who's descriptions of astral projection differed. Then again, I've never even met a single person who claimed astral projection is real (outside of you. I guess.).

Except you aren't getting my point

There are several different planes, an infinite number, so for two people who have NEVER met to describe the same plane..is that a coincidence?

how many people have you met that claimed astral projection WASN'T real? and i assume these same people spent months training and trying to accomplish it..right?

[Fabian]

you mean the most contradictory work of fiction ever created?
As opposed to a complete new line of science fiction?

"Books on astral projection! It must be true. Goodbye bible, you have been debunked"

[Sam]

Not for sure, of course not. But we do know what was responsible for the survival of Western sciences, art and intellect. Christianity was responsible for much more of it than secularists will ever give it credit for.

You think? Most of the secularists I know are quite aware of the fact that the Church was responsible for preserving a great deal of the history and literature that survived the Dark Ages.

Of course, we're also aware that they destroyed more than a little of the history and literature that didn't survive the Dark Ages.

[TheAvatar]

Since we aren't talking about a physical object here (a plant, rock, et cetera) I don't think you are going to get a description that includes smell.

ok, what did he look like? what did he say? did the person experience this before or after a serious traumatic event? have they REPEATEDLY done this?

[macul]

you mean the most contradictory work of fiction ever created?

I'm sorry. When you asked for a book I thought you meant any book. I didn't know you meant a book that had to meet your obviously non-bias opinions.

Whether you agree with the Bible or not, it contains numerous accounts of people experiencing god. Does that make the Bible correct? I dunno. But I know it makes it just as correct as "A Dummies Guide to Astral Projection."

[TheAvatar]

As opposed to a complete new line of science fiction?

"Books on astral projection! It must be true. Goodbye bible, you have been debunked"


Is that your best tactic? belittle everything?


you can think the astral books are fiction, and thats fine, but take the bible literally? theres so many problems with that it isn't even funny

[Dreadstar]

Does this make Dr. Strange God?

Dude, I think it means that god is Dr. Strange! And Wong is the Holy Spirit.

[TheAvatar]

I'm sorry. When you asked for a book I thought you meant any book. I didn't know you meant a book that had to meet your obviously non-bias opinions.

Whether you agree with the Bible or not, it contains numerous accounts of people experiencing god. Does that make the Bible correct? I dunno. But I know it makes it just as correct as "A Dummies Guide to Astral Projection."

I guess im justified, you take the route of the child "dummies guide to astral projection"


the point was, there are books released with the intent to teach projection, the point is, it either works or doesnt, the bible has flat out been stated that it shouldnt be taken literally

[macul]

Except you aren't getting my point

There are several different planes, an infinite number, so for two people who have NEVER met to describe the same plane..is that a coincidence?

Coincidence? Convenient might be a better term.


how many people have you met that claimed astral projection WASN'T real? and i assume these same people spent months training and trying to accomplish it..right?

Astral projection isn't something that comes up very often in my conversations. So, since it only takes months to accomplish I should be able to become a master in no time, right? Care to throw some nifty resources my way? How good are you at astral projection? How long have you been studying it?

[Tages]

And therein lies the quandry, doesn't it?
Precisely. My knowledge of God is intuitive, not demonstrative. I could no more prove to you or anyone else that I have personally felt the touch of the Divine in my life than I could prove that I feel a certain way whenever I hear the Beegees on the radio. You just have to take my word for it. If you don't feel it, and if you think what I felt was just a chemical reaction, a psychological need to believe in an invisible all-powerful and all-knowing spirit in the sky, or whatever, fine. But don't tell me what I feel isn't real. I know it is, and trying to convince me otherwise is a waste of both my time and yours.

[Sam]

ok, what did he look like? what did he say? did the person experience this before or after a serious traumatic event? have they REPEATEDLY done this?

Many certainly claim to have done, yeah. Personally, I think they're nuts. But I don't see any reason to grant any more credence to anyone else's supernatural experience, either.

I've induced hallucinations in myself before, and I remember how convincing they were, which makes me a lot more skeptical of other people's empirically unsupportable mental experiences. (That said, such mental experiences are often interesting and even revelatory in terms of your own psychology, to say nothing of fun, so hey, knock yourself out.)

[TheAvatar]

Coincidence? Convenient might be a better term.

conveinent the same way theres no real evidence of god?



Astral projection isn't something that comes up very often in my conversations. So, since it only takes months to accomplish I should be able to become a master in no time, right? Care to throw some nifty resources my way? How good are you at astral projection? How long have you been studying it?

so then who are you to speak like you know anything about it?

I can tell you right now you would never be able to project, why? you obviously think its a joke and thats fine, but then dont come at me wanting to learn about it

I never said everyone can learn it in a few months, it can take someone 2 days, it can take someone 2 years, it depends on the person, ive been doing it personally for a few years

[Tages]

And I would again like to post a link to this (http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/05/Inductivelogic.shtml) essay by Steven Den Beste that better illustrates my point. Den Beste, as you will notice, is an atheist himself, but understands how someone could come to the other conclusion.

[macul]

ok, what did he look like? what did he say? did the person experience this before or after a serious traumatic event? have they REPEATEDLY done this?

This is hilarious. You want me to denounce the existence of god based upon your belief in astral projection, something for which there is equally no scientific evidence. A belief that is literally shared by AT LEAST a dozen people around the world. I'm convinced. God is dead. Long live astral projection!

[TheAvatar]

Many certainly claim to have done, yeah. Personally, I think they're nuts. But I don't see any reason to grant any more credence to anyone else's supernatural experience, either.

I've induced hallucinations in myself before, and I remember how convincing they were, which makes me a lot more skeptical of other people's empirically unsupportable mental experiences. (That said, such mental experiences are often interesting and even revelatory in terms of your own psychology, to say nothing of fun, so hey, knock yourself out.)

So theres a bunch of people having the same mass hallucination? reminds me of something called religion

[macul]

Is that your best tactic? belittle everything?

you mean the most contradictory work of fiction ever created?

hhhhmmm....

[Dreadstar]

conveinent the same way theres no real evidence of god?


EXACTLY!


.

[TheAvatar]

This is hilarious. You want me to denounce the existence of god based upon your belief in astral projection, something for which there is equally no scientific evidence. A belief that is literally shared by AT LEAST a dozen people around the world. I'm convinced. God is dead. Long live astral projection!


Are you twelve? this little "god is dead in convinced" sarcastic little bits seem to dictate that you are, do you know how easy it would be for anyone to play the same route?

and yes! a dozen people now about projection, because im sure you just researched the numbers

[Tages]

You think? Most of the secularists I know are quite aware of the fact that the Church was responsible for preserving a great deal of the history and literature that survived the Dark Ages.

Of course, we're also aware that they destroyed more than a little of the history and literature that didn't survive the Dark Ages.
Point being, the view Jeffrey is espousing, the "The Islamic world was a beacon of reason and philosophical and scientific enlightenment while Europeans were still running around bonking one another over the head for singing their hymns off-key and marvelling at how the sun could circle the Earth" view, is antiquated, and has been undergoing a steady process of debunking for decades now.

[TheAvatar]

EXACTLY!


.


exactly what? there is no way to disprove or prove anything, THIS is why I didn't wanna go into depth, cuz we have little pricks running around singing "ohh gods dead long live astral projection"

maybe now you can see why I didnt wanna get into these? most people arent mature enough to handle it

[macul]

so then who are you to speak like you know anything about it?

Does this mean you are an expert in world religions?


I can tell you right now you would never be able to project, why? you obviously think its a joke and thats fine, but then dont come at me wanting to learn about it

Well, damn. There goes my life's endeavour. C'mon. I asked for evidence of astral projection. Let's see it.


I never said everyone can learn it in a few months, it can take someone 2 days, it can take someone 2 years, it depends on the person, ive been doing it personally for a few years

and i assume these same people spent months training and trying to accomplish it..right?

Sorry. When you said "months" I thought you meant "months." Not days or years. My apologies.

[Fabian]

Is that your best tactic? belittle everything?


you can think the astral books are fiction, and thats fine, but take the bible literally? theres so many problems with that it isn't even funny
You assume too much. I'm an atheist, I just find what you're saying ridiculous. You're judging/insulting another person's faith by the same criteria your own can't meet.

[Tages]

exactly what? there is no way to disprove or prove anything, THIS is why I didn't wanna go into depth, cuz we have little pricks running around singing "ohh gods dead long live astral projection"

maybe now you can see why I didnt wanna get into these? most people arent mature enough to handle it
And if I had said in this thread "People who don't believe in God just don't have the maturity to deal with it," I would be treated much in the same way you are now.

[Sam]

So theres a bunch of people having the same mass hallucination? reminds me of something called religion

Well, yeah.

[Fabian]

exactly what? there is no way to disprove or prove anything, THIS is why I didn't wanna go into depth, cuz we have little pricks running around singing "ohh gods dead long live astral projection"

maybe now you can see why I didnt wanna get into these? most people arent mature enough to handle it

Highlighted for your convenience

[TheAvatar]

And if I had said in this thread "People who don't believe in God just don't have the maturity to deal with it," I would be treated much in the same way you are now.


but they don't seem to possess the maturity, if they dont agree fine, but when they begin to act like their first pubes haven't even sprouted in..

[Dreadstar]

exactly what? there is no way to disprove or prove anything...

If that's the case, and you TRULY believe that then you should probably rethink THIS:
God is the biggest running gag of all time

[Tages]

So theres a bunch of people having the same mass hallucination? reminds me of something called religion
Rar! I am offended and indignant! Never before have I ever dealt with such an affront to my belief system! Let me assure you that I am quaking with fury at my keyboard, you have shattered my fragile little universe!

Please. I deal with this stuff every day. That's what happens when almost all your friends are non-religious. But all this "I'm going to be biting and inflammatory" crap is much more adolescent than anything anyone else has said.

[macul]

Are you twelve? this little "god is dead in convinced" sarcastic little bits seem to dictate that you are, do you know how easy it would be for anyone to play the same route?

and yes! a dozen people now about projection, because im sure you just researched the numbers

It's called sarcasm. Look. Belief in god is shared by billions. BILLIONS. Many of these people claim to have communicated with god. That doesn't mean he popped in for afternoon tea. It means that somehow, someway, they believe they spoke to him or he spoke to them.

Now you come along and claim god isn't real. Fine. No beef there. However, as evidence that god isn't real you offer up astral projection and without offering any evidence you just want us to take what you say at face value. Sorry. Not buying that.

do you know how easy it would be for anyone to play the same route?

You already have.

[TheAvatar]

Highlighted for your convenience


If the shoe fits wear it, im tired of children running around putting up sarcastic and belittling comments and actually thinking their clever for doing it, give me a break

[Ed Cunard]

As this is a comics message board, I'd like to take this back to the fan-favorite conversational topic of whether or not sales indicate quality and/or "rightness" or whatever.

The Bible sells more than THE CELESTINE PROPHECY, and it's generally better written. Therefore, the Bible wins. Or something... I can prove it with charts and graphs and flipbooks, I swear. I'm still not sure where DIANETICS fits in, but please don't mail me anything dead because of that.

...

Also, I agree with what Fabian said above. EDIT: When he said "You assume too much. I'm an atheist, I just find what you're saying ridiculous. You're judging/insulting another person's faith by the same criteria your own can't meet."

Because I type slow, that might have gotten lost in the kerfluffle.

[TheAvatar]

Rar! I am offended and indignant! Never before have I ever dealt with such an affront to my belief system! Let me assure you that I am quaking with fury at my keyboard, you have shattered my fragile little universe!

Please. I deal with this stuff every day. That's what happens when almost all your friends are non-religious. But all this "I'm going to be biting and inflammatory" crap is much more adolescent than anything anyone else has said.


the worst thing ive said was god was a running gag, ill take it back, other than that I havent insulted anyones religion, i've just stated my opinion and theres people who still struggle to act above the age of 12, im not trying to offend anyone

[TheAvatar]

It's called sarcasm. Look. Belief in god is shared by billions. BILLIONS. Many of these people claim to have communicated with god. That doesn't mean he popped in for afternoon tea. It means that somehow, someway, they believe they spoke to him or he spoke to them.

Now you come along and claim god isn't real. Fine. No beef there. However, as evidence that god isn't real you offer up astral projection and without offering any evidence you just want us to take what you say at face value. Sorry. Not buying that.

alright, quote me where I tell anyone to take this as face value, or except what i have to say, i simply offered up a theory, and you act like im sitting here tryign to change your mind and get you into projection

I never sat here and said everyones wrong and im right, i simply put what i believe and why, and people cant accept that, most people cant even tolerate someone questioning god

[JeffreyWKramer]

except for the countless number of people who have experienced projection,

Lots of people claim to have regular visits from alien beings who stick medical instruments up their butts, too.

Please, offer me some evidence-based reason why I should take one claim more seriously than the other.

[Sam]

To go into a bit more depth, Avatar, yes, certain hallucinatory experiences do seem to display common traits across the board. For instance, people under the influence of psychadelic drugs often experience a feeling of intense connection and understanding with God and/or the universe, often even coupled with a feeling of transcending physical matter and moving into a world of pure spirit.

Sound familiar?

I myself have personally experienced the process of leaving my body and travelling down a corridor of brilliant, swirling light, convinced that at the end of the tunnel I would achieve union with the conscious force that animates the universe. Sadly, the other folks at the party kept coming up and asking if I was ok, interrupting my ascent to the Godhead and making me start all over again. Still, it was a great deal of fun and I highly recommend it to anyone else.

Just don't, y'know, take it too seriously as a real event.

[west3man]

reposted after editing:

"Framing with leading phrasing" is not necessarily the same thing as "assum[ing] facts not in evidence," just as a ( EDITED to add: ) bird is not necessarily the same thing as an ostrich.

The reverse can be true, though.

[Dreadstar]

Please, offer me some evidence-based reason why I should take one claim more seriously than the other.

He's already admitted that he can't.

[TheAvatar]

To go into a bit more depth, Avatar, yes, certain hallucinatory experiences do seem to display common traits across the board. For instance, people under the influence of psychadelic drugs often experience a feeling of intense connection and understanding with God and/or the universe, often even coupled with a feeling of transcending physical matter and moving into a world of pure spirit.

Sound familiar?

I myself have personally experienced the process of leaving my body and travelling down a corridor of brilliant, swirling light, convinced that at the end of the tunnel I would achieve union with the conscious force that animates the universe. Sadly, the other folks at the party kept coming up and asking if I was ok, interrupting my ascent to the Godhead and making me start all over again. Still, it was a great deal of fun and I highly recommend it to anyone else.

Just don't, y'know, take it too seriously as a real event.

I think you were actually projecting, when someone first projects (especially not entirely on purpose) a lot of objects tend to be brighter than they are, almost glowing..this is pretty much due to the fact that in the metaphysical realm you have a different vision set than as a person, and the corridor? i've actually heard of it before, some people pass through it on their first projection

heres a way to tell whats happening : if you look down at your hands, and they begin to melt youre projecting

[macul]

but they don't seem to possess the maturity, if they dont agree fine, but when they begin to act like their first pubes haven't even sprouted in..


This is pure comedy.

God is the biggest running gag of all time

....

except for the countless number of people who have experienced projection, and the countless number of people who have seen god..oh wait..

....

you mean the most contradictory work of fiction ever created?

[Dreadstar]

reposted after editing:

"Framing with leading phrasing" is not necessarily the same thing as "assum[ing] facts not in evidence," just as a ( EDITED to add: ) bird is not necessarily the same thing as an ostrich.

The reverse can be true, though.

reposted after editing:

I still give up.

[JeffreyWKramer]

haha, except its never the same, Ive seen instances where people who have never met can describe the same plane (there are different planes of existence, all with something different)

And I've seen instances in which multiple schizophrenic individuals who have never met have described delusions and hallucinations which are astoundingly alike. Does this mean their beliefs aren't delusional at all - that aliens really do beam instructions into their heads and that their mailmen really are CIA agents?

No, it means they live in the same culture and thus have read or watched some of the same conspiracy/UFO stuff (X-FILES, John Mack silliness, etc.).

As evidence goes, your assertions fail the test. Your faith in them is no more - though admittedly no less - empirically grounded than is that of a Christian or Jew in God.

[Sam]

Lots of people claim to have regular visits from alien beings who stick medical instruments up their butts, too.

Please, offer me some evidence-based reason why I should take one claim more seriously than the other.

Here now. Let's not get carried away. There is just the faintest amount of actual empirical evidence that *something* weird may be going on with the UFO phenomenon. I was as surprised as anybody to find this out, but the Ministry of Defense even had a guy, Nick Pope, whose job it was to investigate UFO reports, and he swears that a very tiny minority of the events he investigated defied conventional explanation. The MOD has actually been releasing quite a bit of really fascinating UFO information, in a quiet, British sort of way.

It's still not exactly a heaping preponderance of evidence, but it puts it on a tier rather higher than astral projection.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Of course, we're also aware that they destroyed more than a little of the history and literature that didn't survive the Dark Ages.

But it turns out they didn't destroy quite as much as we once thought they'd destroyed. Some of that stuff got shoved deep into the Vatican archives, or was stored away in monasteries.

But, sadly, lots of it *was* destroyed.

The historical rethinking is largely one of degree, not type. Serious scholars have known for a long time that the Christian world - and, particularly, within monasteries - was not quite as benighted as had been previously claimed. This just means the Dark Ages were not quite so gloomy as once thought.

[west3man]

reposted after editing:

I still give up.
Loud and clear, Dread.

[TheAvatar]

This is pure comedy.

God is the biggest running gag of all time

....

except for the countless number of people who have experienced projection, and the countless number of people who have seen god..oh wait..

....

you mean the most contradictory work of fiction ever created?



besides the first quote, theres nothign wrong with the others, i didnt say anythign wrong, the bible does contradict itself, and it is said to not be taken literally, im not running around putting up belittling sarcastic comments every reply

[TheAvatar]

reposted after editing:

I still give up.


giving up on?

[Dreadstar]

Loud and clear, Dread.

Thank you!

[Tom]

The Avatar has been banned under at least 3 other names, and like all multiple bannees, he can't resist coming back and acting like a jackass.

I suggest you ignore his responses and carry on the discussion.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Point being, the view Jeffrey is espousing, the "The Islamic world was a beacon of reason and philosophical and scientific enlightenment while Europeans were still running around bonking one another over the head for singing their hymns off-key and marvelling at how the sun could circle the Earth" view, is antiquated, and has been undergoing a steady process of debunking for decades now.

The debunking, as noted above, is mostly one of degree. The Islamic world did maintain and expand on much Classical knowledge when fairly little was being done with it in Europe. They weren't coming up with a whole lot of new Ptolemys and Aristotles, though. At the same time Europeans didn't suddenly devolve into a bunch of idiots who couldn't remember to wipe their asses, but there wasn't a whole lot of exapansion of scientific knowledge or philosophy in Europe for several hundreds of years there.

[Antonio B.]

And, of course, because he's God he doesn't feel the need to give any evidence to back up his claim.

You mean like the Bible.

[JeffreyWKramer]

He's already admitted that he can't.

Yeah, I posted in response to something he said before I had a chance to read all the responses.

And now he's banned, so we'll probably never receive further insight about astral projection.

[Sam]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[JeffreyWKramer]

heres a way to tell whats happening : if you look down at your hands, and they begin to melt youre projecting

This doesn't match DDM's statements about astral projection. Who to believe???!!!

[Winslow]

The Avatar has been banned under at least 3 other names, and like all multiple bannees, he can't resist coming back and acting like a jackass.

I suggest you ignore his responses and carry on the discussion.

I was actually kind of amused at how he was getting dogpiled on by both Christians and atheists.

*eats last of pocorn*

BTW - thanks TOM.

[AceBanning]

The Avatar has been banned under at least 3 other names, and like all multiple bannees, he can't resist coming back and acting like a jackass.

I suggest you ignore his responses and carry on the discussion.


and ill continue to come back whenever I feel like it, i havent been doing anything wrong, for the most part ive been posting rather normally, try again

[Ed Cunard]

I was actually kind of amused at how he was getting dogpiled on by both Christians and atheists.

*eats last of pocorn*

BTW - thanks TOM.

Yes, thanks Tom.

Now we can get back to dogpiling on Winslow.

I just have to make sure I'm near the top of the pile, because I'm fragile.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Here now. Let's not get carried away. There is just the faintest amount of actual empirical evidence that *something* weird may be going on with the UFO phenomenon.


There is obviously "something up" with UFOs. What, exactly, is up is unknown, but whether it has anything at all to do with aliens is pretty iffy at best.

There doesn't appear much to be "up" with the alien abduction stuff, though, other than highly influencable people and group delusion.

[Dreadstar]

And now he's banned, so we'll probably never receive further insight about astral projection.

Just as well.

My head might have exploded from the expansive thinking.

[Tom]

They're cute when they're so stupid, aren't they?

[Ed Cunard]

They're cute when they're so stupid, aren't they?

Like little inbred puppies, yes.

It's like he knew it was your birthday the other day.

[Sam]

This doesn't match DDM's statements about astral projection. Who to believe???!!!

Oddly enough, I would consider melting hands to be a major sign of being on some sort of hallucinogenic drug; I've certainly noticed meltiness once or twice, although not of my actual hands.

You're the professional, Jeff, and I'm curious -- is it possible for people to get psychadelic effects purely with what they've got upstairs, and no chemical assistance?

[Dreadstar]

I was actually kind of amused at how he was getting dogpiled on by both Christians and atheists.

I was honestly not trying to dogpile him, just trying to point out to him that the construction of his domicile was substantially silicon dioxide based.

[VeryBored]

They're cute when they're so stupid, aren't they?

I've never seen a naked girl.

[VeryBored]

I was honestly not trying to dogpile him, just trying to point out to him that the construction of his domicile was substantially silicon dioxide based.


I'm a moron with too much time on my hands.

[Winslow]

Yes, thanks Tom.

Now we can get back to dogpiling on Winslow.

I just have to make sure I'm near the top of the pile, because I'm fragile.

Last time I was dogpiled on,it was because I caught a game winning touchdown in overtime.

Alas - I would pull a muscle just trying to get in a stance now . . . .

[Sam]

There is obviously "something up" with UFOs. What, exactly, is up is unknown, but whether it has anything at all to do with aliens is pretty iffy at best.

There doesn't appear much to be "up" with the alien abduction stuff, though, other than highly influencable people and group delusion.

Carl Sagan does some pretty interesting research in The Demon Haunted World and shows that in medieval times, there were reports of demonic encounters during the night which bear a marked resemblance to modern descriptions of alien abduction.

Sagan posits that there might be some kind of consistant hallucinatory phenomenon occuring here that causes such similar experiences over such a long period of time, which is an interesting idea at the least.

[Dreadstar]

Nevermind...

[Rabid Trekkie]

Is god the imaginary friend of adults: Discuss

I'm not actually trying to piss anyone off but i over heard an aging hippie at Avebury for the solstice wonder this aloud. :eek:

Well I don't think so but then again I've been told I'm not too right in the head.

The thing is though there is no absolute proof one way or the other, I say that the complexity of the universe is proof of God and yet others say that the same complexity that I see is proof that there is not a God.

And then of course once you decide that there is a God you have to pick which one you believe he/she/they/it are. That can be even harder than deciding if God exists or not.

Myself and my family and friends find a belief in God very rewarding. I have peace in some situations when I should be scared, hope in situations when I should see nothing but disaster every where, and I think I'm a better person because of it.

And if I'm wrong well I take this quote from The Silver Chair as my own:

"Suppose... suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones. And if this black pits of a kingdom is the best you can make, then it's a poor world. And we four can make a dream world to lick your real one hollow."

[MacQuarrie]

Never mind....

[JeffreyWKramer]

Carl Sagan does some pretty interesting research in The Demon Haunted World and shows that in medieval times, there were reports of demonic encounters during the night which bear a marked resemblance to modern descriptions of alien abduction.

Sagan posits that there might be some kind of consistant hallucinatory phenomenon occuring here that causes such similar experiences over such a long period of time, which is an interesting idea at the least.

As I recall, Sagan talks about hypnopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations, which are a very real thing, quite interesting in and of themselves, and *very* consistent with reports of alien abductions - and particularly similar to what abductees report recalling of their "experiences" prior to idiots using hypnosis to mess with (i.e., "recover") their memories, enough that I think this line of reasoning is quite on the right track.

Since sleep apnea and other sleep disorders can trigger these sorts of hallucinatory sleep phenomena, and since our increasing obesity results in increasing frequency of sleep apnea and related disorders, this line of reasoning also offers a rationale for the apparent increase in such experiences with time.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I was actually kind of amused at how he was getting dogpiled on by both Christians and atheists.

Hey, just speaking for myself, it would be pretty hypocritical to question the credibility of Christian beliefs, then give a pass to something like astral projection.

[JeffreyWKramer]

You're the professional, Jeff, and I'm curious -- is it possible for people to get psychadelic effects purely with what they've got upstairs, and no chemical assistance?


Well, psychotic people do so all the time, though there is some chemical imbalance there.

But yeah, people can learn to put themselves into all sorts of altered states. I knew an old 60s acid case who claimed he could induce acid flashbacks, even though he hadn't dropped acid in decades at that point. My guess is that in accessing memories of his altered perception experiences, he learned to shift his perceptions to that frame of reference.

Anthropological lore also includes accounts of shamen who, after taking their first few trips to the spirit world via hallucinogenic drugs, eventually learn how to take that trail on their own.

[Tages]

Anthropological lore also includes accounts of shamen who, after taking their first few trips to the spirit world via hallucinogenic drugs, eventually learn how to take that trail on their own.
Well, LSD supposedly stays in your system forever, so I suppose that's plausible.

[Winslow]

Anthropological lore also includes accounts of shamen who, after taking their first few trips to the spirit world via hallucinogenic drugs, eventually learn how to take that trail on their own.

Indeed, many Biblical schoolars believe the Old Testament objection to sorcery was the first anti-drug stance.

[Sam]

Well, LSD supposedly stays in your system forever, so I suppose that's plausible.

For that matter, as I understand it a lot of hallucinogens -- psilocybin and DMT, to name a few -- function in a manner largely identical to certain chemicals which occur naturally in the human brain during dreams. (If I'm mistaken about this, I'll count on Jeffrey to correct me.)

Given that, I don't have too much difficulty believing people could teach themselves to have experiences like I've had, without fungal assistance.

...

In fact, could somebody unban Avatar? If he could explain how he does it, I could save myself some money.

[macul]

Hey, just speaking for myself, it would be pretty hypocritical to question the credibility of Christian beliefs, then give a pass to something like astral projection.

bing bing bing

I don't believe in either. But you don't have to to see how ridiculous the argument was.

[west3man]

bing bing bing

I don't believe in either. But you don't have to to see how ridiculous the argument was.
Agreed.

I believe the term is "blindingly apparent."

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, LSD supposedly stays in your system forever, so I suppose that's plausible.

But most hallucinogens don't stay in the system forever.

People can learn self-hypnosis, which is a willful alteration of consciousness. There's no reason to believe they can't put themselves into other altered states.

Perhaps others who know more about Australian aborigine beliefs can offer more info, but I believe dreamtime shamen get there primarily through meditation.

[JeffreyWKramer]

For that matter, as I understand it a lot of hallucinogens -- psilocybin and DMT, to name a few -- function in a manner largely identical to certain chemicals which occur naturally in the human brain during dreams. (If I'm mistaken about this, I'll count on Jeffrey to correct me.)

I think that's the case, but I'm not certain there.

In fact, could somebody unban Avatar? If he could explain how he does it, I could save myself some money.

Self-hypnosis/meditation.

[Paul McEnery]

That is putting it lightly. Without religion, Western Civilization as we know it would have turned out entirely differently, and almost certainly to the detriment of science, scholarship, and knowledge in general.
True. Though of course by religion, in this case, you mean Islam.

[Tages]

True. Though of course by religion, in this case, you mean Islam.
Keep reading, Paul. Get with the times. Christendom's making a comeback some centuries after that pesky Rennaissance.

[Dreadstar]

Wait, don't the Muslims have an all-powerful imaginary friend, too?

[Tages]

Wait, don't the Muslims have an all-powerful imaginary friend, too?
Yeah, but they're not the majority religion in the West, Christians are. Which automatically means Christianity is worse.

Don't ask me how it works. I don't make up this stuff.

[Nate C.]

Commendations to Tages for his excellent insights.

Recommendations to Paul and Jeffrey to read How the Irish Saved Civilization by Thomas Cahill, or The Desire of the Everlasting Hills, very readable histories of how Irish Monastic and Jewish (respectively) communties helped save Western Civilization.

Agree or disagree, simplistic Islamic polemics don't explain everything, and certainly don't answer some of Tage's thoughtful premisees. (is that the plural of premise?) The University system was a derivation of the Divinity school. The ealiest scientists did science for the "glory of God". And theology isn't illogical. It's called the "queen of sciences" afterall.

[Nate C.]

do you owe me a coke?

[Tages]

There was also a fundamental difference between medieval Islamic and Christian inquiries into the sciences, as Woods explains in "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization". Islamic scholars tended to regard the way the world works as a series of mere habits of the great Allah, and it was an uncertainty if He would choose to discontinue them at any time. To Jewish and Christian scholars in the West, God chose, very specifically, to make an ordered universe, and physical laws were exactly that, laws. While of course the advances of Arab and Muslim science during the time period should be remembered and applauded, the fact remains that the claim that pre-Rennaissance Europeans simply freeloaded off of Muslim science for centuries is an oversimplified, inaccurate, discredited myth.

[JeffreyWKramer]

The ealiest scientists did science for the "glory of God".
Somehow I doubt that's what the scientific thinkers of Greece would have said.

[Tages]

do you owe me a coke?
I'll settle for a plate of fish and chips when next I visit San Francisco.

[Tages]

Somehow I doubt that's what the scientific thinkers of Greece would have said.
I'm fairly certain what he meant was the earliest post-Roman Empire scientists.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm fairly certain what he meant was the earliest post-Roman Empire scientists.

That's fine, but let's not pretend they are the earliest scientists.

I don't think the likes of Galen were primarily interested in the Glory of God, either. And, amazingly, it was many centuries after the death of Galen that serious work in physiology was next done.

[JeffreyWKramer]

And theology isn't illogical. It's called the "queen of sciences" afterall.

I've never heard of it being called that at all, and certainly never by anyone alive in the past 100 years who I'd consider a scientist.

And, the "logic" of theology depends on the acceptance of untested - and untestable - hypotheses along the line of "if this is true (and we'll just pretend it is), then..."

[Tages]

I've never heard of it being called that at all, and certainly never by anyone alive in the past 100 years who I'd consider a scientist.

And, the "logic" of theology depends on the acceptance of untested - and untestable - hypotheses along the line of "if this is true (and we'll just pretend it is), then..."
So are fiction stories illogical as well? Since they involve characters and/or actions that have never existed and all...

[Winslow]

I've never heard of it being called that at all, and certainly never by anyone alive in the past 100 years who I'd consider a scientist.

And, the "logic" of theology depends on the acceptance of untested - and untestable - hypotheses along the line of "if this is true (and we'll just pretend it is), then..."

I think theology is called that because it provides an interpretive lens.

[JeffreyWKramer]

So are fiction stories illogical as well? Since they involve characters and/or actions that have never existed and all...

Like theology, the are logical only to the extent one accepts the fictional premises. Suspension of disbelief, all that.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think theology is called that because it provides an interpretive lens.

And one which has proven pretty much inappropriate to viewing real-world things - i.e., the subjects of science.

[Nate C.]

Somehow I doubt that's what the scientific thinkers of Greece would have said.

Oh, I don't know, what with Plaro's Idealism and understanding of a "reality beyond reality, I think he would have indeed said something along those lines.

But seriously, Jeffrey, your lack of love for Christianity shouldn't extend to discounting history. A look at some of the literature Tages and I are suggesting could do you some good. Whether you believe Christianity to be a figment of man's imagination or the profound truth of all reality, the fact remains, the church was a tool for positive human progression. You suggesting that it wasn't won't win you any converts to your line of thinking. If I were an atheist, I would stil acknowledge the efforts mentioned (and the plethora not mentioned).

[Nate C.]

I'm fairly certain what he meant was the earliest post-Roman Empire scientists.

Yup.

Although the Greeks were in tune to Idealism and a Spiritual Framework guiding our own reality.

[Winslow]

Like theology, the are logical only to the extent one accepts the fictional premises. Suspension of disbelief, all that.

Science can inform theology (the heavens declare the glory of God ~ Psalm 19), and theology can inform science . . . (the notion of an unchanging God creating a predicable (or testable) universe).

The two are distinct - yet can complement one another. They shouldn't be set up against one another as competing world views.

[Tages]

Like theology, the are logical only to the extent one accepts the fictional premises. Suspension of disbelief, all that.
According to the people discussing the subject, the premises is accepted. Do you believe in wormholes or zero point energy? Because we haven't proven that they exist, either. Yet, scientists still discuss them. Why?

[Nate C.]

Science can inform theology (the heavens declare the glory of God ~ Psalm 19), and theology can inform science . . . (the notion of an unchanging God creating a predicable (or testable) universe).

The two are distinct - yet can complement one another. They shouldn't be set up against one another as competing world views.

Great point.

The earliest Christian scientists saw the bible as coherent and without error, and extrapolated workable scientific theories from the text. Tages mentioned the "ordered universe" model of scientific study.



But seiously, I'm out. We've done this a hundred times before.

[JeffreyWKramer]

But seriously, Jeffrey, your lack of love for Christianity shouldn't extend to discounting history. A look at some of the literature Tages and I are suggesting could do you some good. Whether you believe Christianity to be a figment of man's imagination or the profound truth of all reality, the fact remains, the church was a tool for positive human progression.

I haven't suggested otherwise. As I noted above, the degree to which classical knowledge was lost/ignored in the post-Roman era used to be exaggerated, as are some elements of the scientific endeavors of the Middle East of that time. But let's not pretend that science, literature or other fields made any major strides in Europe during the Dark Ages, because that simply isn't true, either. Probably the biggest stride which *did* occur was alchemy - which occurred mostly among the Moors and was strongly Mid-East influenced - and even there, the advances were fairly limited, mostly serving to demonstrate "this doesn't work" and thus eventually setting the stage for the abandonment of the classical elemental concept and the development of actual chemistry.

And, I rather doubt Plato's concept of divinity would have had much more in common with the Christian concept than does the Hindu one.

[Winslow]

And one which has proven pretty much inappropriate to viewing real-world things - i.e., the subjects of science.

Yes and no.

Without context I can't agree or disagree.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Do you believe in wormholes or zero point energy? Because we haven't proven that they exist, either. Yet, scientists still discuss them. Why?

We discuss them as theoretical entities because their existence can be extraplated from things we do know to exist, from data which has been observed and from larger theories which have survived the test of both time and rigorous testing/observation.

As compared to theological concepts, which people believe entirely on faith.

[Tages]

I haven't suggested otherwise. As I noted above, the degree to which classical knowledge was lost/ignored in the post-Roman era used to be exaggerated, as are some elements of the scientific endeavors of the Middle East of that time. But let's not pretend that science, literature or other fields made any major strides in Europe during the Dark Ages, because that simply isn't true, either.
Really? Because some would disagree (http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html).

[JeffreyWKramer]

The earliest Christian scientists saw the bible as coherent and without error, and extrapolated workable scientific theories from the text.

Theories which have largely been abandoned for better ones, as we've learned more.

[Tages]

We discuss them as theoretical entities because their existence can be extraplated from things we do know to exist, from data which has been observed and from larger theories which have survived the test of both time and rigorous testing/observation.

As compared to theological concepts, which people believe entirely on faith.
Really? As I recall, that Aquinas fellow had a lot of things to say about reason as well.

(cue Part IX of Paul McEnery's twelve-part series "Aquinas the Great Creep, Who Cut Down My Ancestors' Twelve Thousand Magnolias")

[Tages]

Theories which have largely been abandoned for better ones, as we've learned more.
The existence of which may not have been were it not for their predecessors.

[Nate C.]

But let's not pretend that science, literature or other fields made any major strides in Europe during the Dark Ages, because that simply isn't true, either. Probably the biggest stride which *did* occur was alchemy - which occurred mostly among the Moors and was strongly Mid-East influenced - and even there, the advances were fairly limited, mostly serving to demonstrate "this doesn't work" and thus eventually setting the stage for the abandonment of the classical elemental concept and the development of actual chemistry.

What do "major strides" have to do with the efficacy of faith?

And whose saying there were major strides made in the Middle Ages?

And what constitutes a major stride? More likely, the middle ages are like the post-modern age- snuggly fit in between two great ages (Rome and the Rennaisance) and have a hard time looking pretty at the ball.


And, I rather doubt Plato's concept of divinity would have had much more in common with the Christian concept than does the Hindu one.

Well you've made my point, somewhat. It's the idea that there is no logic behind faith that most people find insulting, Jeffrey. I can hammer out the finer details of faith all day long with Paul McEnry, Jade, and Solaris, content in the fact that the idea that there is a god/gods/God is squarely in play. What we disagree on tells us more about our own faith and our understanding of it and the other person's.

You hammering home that 'god is dead' is rather like wanting to take away the ball and insisting that we play the game, and again, by your rules.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Really? Because some would disagree (http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html).

Depends what one considers "major", I guess.

Advancement in architecture: minimal to none.
Advancement in physiology: virtually none.
Advancement in literature: fairly limited, but with a few prominent exceptions.
Advancements in chemistry: some work, already noted, that contributed toward demise of the prevailing paradigm

There was some advancement in areas of applied science, metallurgy.

[Nate C.]

Theories which have largely been abandoned for better ones, as we've learned more.

Gravity not working over in Iowa, Jeffrey?

[JeffreyWKramer]

You hammering home that 'god is dead' is rather like wanting to take away the ball and insisting that we play the game, and again, by your rules.

Hey, what game you play is up to you. But it isn't the only game in town, nor do I think it the best one.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Gravity not working over in Iowa, Jeffrey?
a) note "largely" and b) note post-Einsteinian concepts of gravity.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Really? As I recall, that Aquinas fellow had a lot of things to say about reason as well.

And Hume and others have amply pointed out the fallacy - and ultimate folly - of Aquinas.

As I've noted many times, I think it a great tragedy that so brilliant a man as Aquinas didn't live several hundred years later, when his genius might have been put to much better use.

[Nate C.]

Hey, what game you play is up to you. But it isn't the only game in town, nor do I think it the best one.

I sincerely hope you plan on replying to my questions and comments.
If you don't intend to do so, I'll have to call "Samurai, DDM" and a few other cuss words at you. :)

[Sam]

And theology isn't illogical. It's called the "queen of sciences" afterall.

Sure, by theologians. However, one would be hard pressed to argue that theology follows the scientific method to which one must adhere to be called, in fact, a scientist.

To offer an example of what I mean, a scientific theory must be falsifiable to qualify as science. What theological theories are falsifiable?

Theology is a philosophy, not a science. Once upon a time, there wasn't much difference between philosophy and science, but those days are behind us. That said, there's nothing wrong with philosophy.

[Nate C.]

And Hume and others have amply pointed out the fallacy - and ultimate folly - of Aquinas.

As I've noted many times, I think it a great tragedy that so brilliant a man as Aquinas didn't live several hundred years later, when his genius might have been put to much better use.

And other philosophers have put Hume and Kant to rest as well. Seriously, when you start living your life as if there's no such animal as "cause" or "effect", you can trot out Hume.

Aquinas is hardly discredited or considered a fool.

Debated, disagreed with, yes.

[Nate C.]

Sure, by theologians. However, one would be hard pressed to argue that theology follows the scientific method to which one must adhere to be called, in fact, a scientist.

To offer an example of what I mean, a scientific theory must be falsifiable to qualify as science. What theological theories are falsifiable?

Theology is a philosophy, not a science. Once upon a time, there wasn't much difference between philosophy and science, but those days are behind us. That said, there's nothing wrong with philosophy.

Sure, I agree with that, as we moderns define "scientific". I was talking about pre-modern scientists and the views towards theology.

It's more helpful to see it as a philosophy, (and again, I win against Jeffrey, seeing as how all philosophies compete in the arena of the mind, and not verifiable data. Man, reading philosophy, you'd better bone up on your analogies, and be able to keep five or so in your head at any given point. The mysteries of the Universe aren't for the faint of mind) than a science.

[Spider69]

Well, i'm not gonna get into all your Theology stuff. but i do know this.....When ever i do good things...and do what is moraly right....for some reason...i get so lucky...and get some many breaks..it isn't even funny...but when i do one thing wrong....like i know it's wrong while i'm doing it....for some reason...the whole freaking world comes crashing down on me......and it sucks.......or like this one time when i was having a fight with my girlfreind i was sitting outside in the rain talking to her....i knew it was raining...but at that perticular time...i didn't care....i was upset...she was upset....we were both upset...she had a call on the other line and told me to hang on(while she was in the safety of her own room!) So i hung on for like three minutes..and when your waiting for three minutes in the rain that can seem like forever....so i look up...into the dark cloudy night above me and said......

"Oh yeah! You think this bothers me......HUH! It doesn't.....My life is so mest up right now...i don't care about this freaking rain. YOU HEAR ME......I DON'T CARE! This the best you got...HUH! Go head....bring it ON..I can take it....I've token everything else you've thrown at me!..Go head...Make it rain harder....I dare you.......I DON'T CARE!!!!"

And i shit you not...it literally started raining....no, more like pouring rain....it was raining so hard it almost started to hurt......I was soaking wet, drenched......i look up.....

"Fine!....Be that way...it seems like you make it your life's mission to make sure i do the right thing...and when i don't....you punish me for it. You want to punish me...then fine, But don't you dare take her away from me.....you hear me......LEAVE HER OUT OF THIS!!!........................................... ....................i.....i just want my life back to normal again.....i don't want to fight with her anymore........i don't want to get amonia from all this rain....and...i.......i just want things to be back to normal...please. I'll do what ever you want....just please....stop this.......Just hlp me out here...will ya."

And again...i shit you not...almost immediatly.....it stop raining.....just like that....then my girlfriend got back on line and we started talking..ad we made up...now things can't be better.......now is it just corencedence, that it started raining harder when i said that to him...is it corencedence that it stop almost immediatly after i said that...maybe...but all i know is that the weather man said that it was going to be a clear night and a great time to veiw the stars...but that night it rained like the flood was coming or something...another corencedence....maybe......but i beleive what i want to beleive...and feel what i want to feel...just like everybody else on this board does......and that is how i feel......so lets see an imaginary freind do that!

[Sam]

Well, i'm not gonna get into all your Theology stuff. but i do know this.....When ever i do good things...and do what is moraly right....for some reason...i get so lucky...and get some many breaks..it isn't even funny...but when i do one thing wrong....like i know it's wrong while i'm doing it....for some reason...the whole freaking world comes crashing down on me......and it sucks.......

The thing is, I know lots of people who are absolute bastards, and get nothing but rewards from the world for it.

And I know an even greater number of genuinely nice, caring, generous, benevolent people who are rewarded with a new kind of shitstorm every day.

If the world has been just to you, congratulations, and I'm happy for you. But it's hardly the rule.

[Tages]

Depends what one considers "major", I guess.

Advancement in architecture: minimal to none.
Advancement in physiology: virtually none.
Advancement in literature: fairly limited, but with a few prominent exceptions.
Advancements in chemistry: some work, already noted, that contributed toward demise of the prevailing paradigm

There was some advancement in areas of applied science, metallurgy.
Architecture: The High Gothic style
Literature: Dante, Chaucer, Boccaccio, Langland, Gawain poetry
Physiology: Salerno Medical School

That's just off the top of my head.

[Nate C.]

The thing is, I know lots of people who are absolute bastards, and get nothing but rewards from the world for it.

And I know an even greater number of genuinely nice, caring, generous, benevolent people who are rewarded with a new kind of