ALL-STAR: Questions & Speculation

[sixstringguild]

On Mark Millar's forum, somebody claims to have the new Wizard mag that comes out this week. In it, they state that DC is coming out w/ an "All Star" line of comics. Only 2 books lined up right now:
Superman w/ Morrison/Quitely
Batman and Robin w/ a Writer TBD/Jim Lee

Found this on Geoff Johns board:

"And, contrary to speculation, the All-Stars books will not create a new or alternate continuity like the "Ultimate" books do, but will instead contain stories told in present day but utilizing what could be described as timeless, iconic, Pre-Crisis versions of the DCU's top characters. Just don't expect any dated, cornball flavor associated with the Silver Age of comics."

"In many ways the new line will replace DC's "Prestige Format", as All-Stars will strive to become and exclusive club of sorts where only DC's most well-known characters (sorry, Gentleman Ghost), and comic's most talented writers and artists need apply."

[jboncha]

That was me....
I typed in the whole article but they removed it.

I am trying to get it from one of the other places I posted it so I dont have to type it in again.

The art that Jim Lee drew with the artcile was pretty good as well.
Back to the old black n yellow logo.


Josh B

[jboncha]

DC ALL STARS
An exclusive preview of DC's exciting answer to Marvel's Ultimate line
-----------------------------------

It looks like an Ultimate line. It smells like an Ultimate line. But when you actually get a taste of what DC Comics has in store this year, you might start craving the All-Star alternative.

Spearheaded by VP Executive Editor Dan DiDio, DC shakes up the industry yet again by unleashing DC All-Stars -- a brand-new line of books separate from their main line and dedicated to, in DiDio's words "All-star writer and all-star artists working on all-star characters to tell an all-star comic story"

Fill in those blanks, and you'll get the first major ongoing launch from the line this June. Jim Lee, the superstar artist behind Batman's record breaking "Hush" storyline, returns to Gotham City on All-Star Batman & Robin (DC remained secretive about the book's writer at press time.) Later in 2005, look up in the sky for All-Star Superman #1, created by critically acclaimed collaborators Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely of New X-Men and JLA:Earth 2.

According to DC, these books define what All-Stars is all about: giving the best creators in the business access to the biggest characters in the DCU -- and then watching the titles fly off the rack.

I CAN'T BELIEVE ITS NOT ULTIMATE

For years, fans have anxiously awaited DC's version of Marvel's successful Ultimate line of books launched in 2000, while Marvel consistently crowds the top10 sellers list with titles like Ultimate Spider-Man.

All-Stars takes aim at Marvel by twisting the idea of an "Ultimate" story into something that preserves the long history of the DC Universe and also presents brand-new, not re-interpreted, tales.

And, contrary to speculation, the All-Stars books will not create a new or alternate continuity like the "Ultimate" books do, but will instead contain stories told in present day but utilizing what could be described as timeless, iconic, Pre-Crisis versions of the DCU's top characters. Just don't expect any dated, cornball flavor associated with the Silver Age of comics.

"These are the versions of characters that everyone who is a civilian would know and recognize immediately," says Jim Lee. "I think Marvel's Ultimate line goes a little further in terms of changing things. We're not going to do a new origin of Batman where he's got two brothers. It's not that. There should be some other creative hook, and I think this is really a cool one."

Still, All-Star books won't neccesarily worry themselves by beginning with drawn-out origin sagas either -- the modus operandi starts and ends with telling a good story.

To really grasp the concept of DC All-Stars, DiDio points to Alan Moore's 1986 Superman two-parter "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" - contained in Superman $423 and Action Comics #583 - a Silver Age-style long considered to be one of the greatest Superman stories of all time. DC states that Moore's story is the model for what its trying to accomplish with All-Stars, and cites the way the fabel takes nearly 50 years of Superman lore and gives it a fresh and contemporary spin exciting for both first-time and long-time readers.

The idea is to present a line of comics that's instantly accessible using the core concepts that made the characters successful.

"It's funny, when I first came onto these books, Batman and Superman, they had already changed a lot of the status quo," says Lee. "Things I really associated with the characters were no longer there - like the Fortress of Solitude and the giant penny in the Batcave. And yes, it seems hokey, but I still think you can pull it off today. It's all in the presentation. I think the more you get away from that stuff, the less interesting [the characters] become."

BEST OF THE BEST

The caliber of characters and creators attached to this line gives All-Stars and amazing potential for success, but DiDio makes it clear that, as tempting as it may be, he nevere intends to flood the market with All-Star titles. The company plans to take its time and get the stories right while actively pursuing the best talent to make it happen.

"I think DC is doing it smart by not doing eight books at once," says Lee. "But obviously, it always comes down to the stories and how well you tell them. If people love the idea and pick up the book and say 'Ugh, this doesnt do anything for me' then you're sunk."

In many ways the new line will replace DC's "Prestige Format", as All-Stars will strive to become and exclusive club of sorts where only DC's most well-known characters (sorry, Gentleman Ghost), and comic's most talented writers and artists need apply.

"All-Stars is all about delivering on the expectations of the characters," says DiDio. "These will be versions of the characters that people expect to read if they havent read a Superman or Batman comic in a while. These are the things they'll want to see, and this is us delivering to the fans exactly what they want in a great format with great talent so they can truly enjoy the characters they know and love. Simple as that."

[jam]

Hmm.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Sounds like an interesting idea.

I could draw a comparison with the new "Doctor Who" series now filming in the UK. I have NO IDEA what approach they are taking with what must surely be viewed as a relaunch of the character, but what I hope they'll be doing is simply NOT MENTIONING the existing continuity unless it is absolutely necessary. I find this much more appealing that simply ignoring the continuity or "ultimising" by starting from scratch.

I very much appreciate the argument that continuity means we have a lot of baggage to carry around with the character. But ignoring that continuity can alienate a lot of existing fans.

If the "all-stars" line means we get excellent stories from top-notch creators, then that in itself is good news. The fact that they are in continuity (not that that really bothers me all that much) is just the icing on the cake.

[sixstringguild]

I don't think the AllStar line is going to be geared toward the average comic book fan. It's assumed that anyone who knows anything about comics will buy these books. All Stars will be for the casual reader who never darkens the doorway of a comic store, but instead hangs out at Borders or Barnes and Noble. I'm sure these books will particularly be geared toward a hardback/tpb format w/ a strong push at mainstream bookstores.

[retcon74]

I don't mean to come off as sarcastic but, basically, isn't this just a more "serious" animated adventures?

With the previous animated adventures titles, you pretty much had stories that didn't necessarily tie-into the regular DCU continuity, and you had Silver Age/Pre-Crisis characters. (i.e. Barbara Gordon was still Batgirl) So, how is this really any different?

Still, if these titles have their own "firm" continuity...in other words, if what happens in issues #7-#12 (and you know they're going to run the storylines in 6 issue arcs for the trades) continues upon subplots of issues #1-#6, I'd be satisfied with that. I just don't want a JLA: Classified where one 6-issue arc is completely unrelated to another arc. (That's why I read books...whereas I want "serialized fiction" in my comics)

So, bottom line for me, if it looks like there will be some continuity within each title from one arc to another, I'll give it a shot in the form of the trades. (DC lost me as a monthly individual issue reader with IC, but that's another story)

[glennsim]

Retcon74: While you might be right, my impression from the news is that the different arcs aren't going to have much to do with each other. I think that's what they are trying to avoid, to be different from the Ultimate line.

If nothing else, I'm thinking that the Superman and Batman books won't cross over. Or if they do, the Superman in the Batman book doesn't necessarily have to be the same Superman as in the Superman book.

But I could be wrong...

[NickVinson]

If the "all-stars" line means we get excellent stories from top-notch creators, then that in itself is good news. The fact that they are in continuity (not that that really bothers me all that much) is just the icing on the cake.

why not just do this with the regular titles? Why is this necessary?

[glennsim]

why not just do this with the regular titles? Why is this necessary?

I think the clearest example is that the Superman book will probably feature a Lois who isn't married to Superman and doesn't know he and Clark are the same person. This allows the creators to tell stories set in this "classic" scenario, which is also the most familiar to outsiders or casual readers.

Not that I see any reason for ME to read them, but I can understand why they might want to give it a try.

[retcon74]

Retcon74: While you might be right, my impression from the news is that the different arcs aren't going to have much to do with each other. I think that's what they are trying to avoid, to be different from the Ultimate line.

If nothing else, I'm thinking that the Superman and Batman books won't cross over. Or if they do, the Superman in the Batman book doesn't necessarily have to be the same Superman as in the Superman book.

But I could be wrong...

Oh, I would have no problem if the Superman that appeared in Batman's book, or vice versa, weren't exactly one in the same. I'm not looking for a "shared universe" type of continuity, we already have that in the "regular" DCU. I just wanted some continuity within each title itself. In other words, I'm not looking to read Batman & Robin issues #1-#6 where Robin is Dick Grayson and then in issues #7-#12 of the same title, Robin is Tim Drake.

I'd just like to see the story arcs follow one another chronologically and with some sense of continuity. For example...since I'm comparing this to the Animated Adventures title....if the Penquin is Gotham's new mayor in the first story arc, I'd like to see him remain so in all the following story arcs until he status changes.

So, I have no problem with this not being an Ultimate line. No need to "restart from scratch" so to speak. No need for Superman and Batman to even share the same continuity with one another. I'd just like to see each title not contradict itself as it progresses.

[retcon74]

pardon the back to back posts but, upon rereading the original post, I think what we're getting is something akin to "The Silver Age today"

In other words, it's 2005 and;

Barry Allen is The Flash and always has been

Hal Jordan is Green Lantern without going through that whole Spectre bit

Lois Lane is not married to Clark Kent and doesn't know he's Superman

Barbara Gordon is Batgirl

Etc...

[Buried Alien]

pardon the back to back posts but, upon rereading the original post, I think what we're getting is something akin to "The Silver Age today"

In other words, it's 2005 and;

Barry Allen is The Flash and always has been

Hal Jordan is Green Lantern without going through that whole Spectre bit

Lois Lane is not married to Clark Kent and doesn't know he's Superman

Barbara Gordon is Batgirl

Etc...


I think I like it. :)


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[protonik]

The feeling I am getting is not that the Superman who might appear in Batman & Robin isn't necessarily the Superman in Superman. I get the feeling they will be exactly the same in the same way that they were in the Silver Age. These are the Icons, the symbols everyone knows and there is no need to "ultimize" them, the origins stand on their own. These books will be EXACTLY like the animated style books EXCEPT these will sell and I can see me buying these books. The animated books still had a bit of the ol' continuity gremlin in that you had to know a little bit about the cartoons but these, you won't.

Jason

[NickVinson]

maybe its me.. but... i still dont see how this is a good idea. if you are going to go to all this trouble why not just restart everything? Yeah I understand the 'Dont want to piss off the old fans." and everything but... where are the new fans? The 'casual' comic reader, i feel, is a myth. we all go to specialty stores or online order with specific intent on what we want to purchase.

and if its a simple matter of attracting new readers from the subculture.. well.. they could drop the cover price, and give it to the best talent that will sell. do they need to do a 'pseudo' outsourced continuity?

and its not that im uninterested in seeing Morrison on Superman.. but.. why cant he do the regular book? It will sell. I think Jim Lee is proof of that.

it... ah fuck it. Even Im not making any sense

[yenaled]

I can understand why some people will read this, but I'm not going to bother.

[kossori]

YES!!!
Great idea!

[The Xenos]

Batman and Robin with Jim Lee sounds intersting depending on teh writer and story. Quietly on Superman kills it for me.

-Xenos

[Apathy Boy]

From a marketing perspective, I think DC really needs to work on explaining what this line is. They're obviously trying to avoid describing it in a way that makes it obvious they're copying the Ultimate line. As a result, they're not explaining what this is at all.

And, contrary to speculation, the All-Stars books will not create a new or alternate continuity like the "Ultimate" books do, but will instead contain stories told in present day but utilizing what could be described as timeless, iconic, Pre-Crisis versions of the DCU's top characters. Just don't expect any dated, cornball flavor associated with the Silver Age of comics.Huh? Could that be any more contradictory? It's not an alternate continuity but it uses a different version of today's characters. Uh, OK.

Right now, it sounds like they're not having any continuity at all, just a bunch of unrelated story arcs. Isn't that what books like LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT and LEGENDS OF THE DC UNIVERSE were for?

[tricksterpup]

This is from an Article at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AllStarSuperman_Morrison.htm). Check out the link for the full story.
Okay, it’s not quite an “Ultimate” line for DC Comics. Rather, the All-Star in a line of books pairing DC’s A-list creators with the icons of its universe for stories that aren’t so…beholden to continuity.

The long-rumored line kicks off in June with Jim Lee returning to Gotham City to tell a Batman and Robin story (with a writer TBA) in All-Star Batman & Robin, with the Robin in this tale being Dick Grayson; and later in 2005, Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely will re-team for All-Star Superman.

I am not in big favor for this..

[Ned Leeds]

This is from an Article at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AllStarSuperman_Morrison.htm). Check out the link for the full story.


I am not in big favor for this..

I'll give Grant M. a chance. And if nothing else, Batman & Robin will have some good art.

[J.R.E.]

Why aren't you?

Hell, it can't be any worse than what DC did decades before the Ultimate Line was even a glimmer in Marvel's eye.

[Bat-Mite]

I am not in big favor for this..

I have asked this before, but so far nobody has answered me.

Anyway... exactly how, a pair of comic books nobody is forcing you to read - much less buy- affect you?

I mean, if they were in continuity, you could somehow say that the things that will appear in those comics might spill over to the ones you read, but that's not the problem in this case.

So really, what the heck is your problem?

[Buried Alien]

Only time will tell, but in theory, this is a good solution that will hopefully please old DC fans without alienating newer ones. "ULTIMATE" is the wrong term to describe what DC is doing because while the new ALL-STARS project seems superficially analogous to Marvel's ULTIMATE series, it's got an entirely different...even opposite... approach. ULTIMATE took the Marvel characters as we knew them and "modernized" them, so to speak...in effect taking them even farther from their roots (although ostensibly, the goal was to return them to their roots). DC's ALL-STARS, on the other hand, if it is indeed what it is rumored to be, is an authentic attempt to provide the classic, old-school DC Universe (from the Pre-CRISIS era and beyond) to those who want it, while leaving the continuity-heavy mainstream Post-CRISIS DCU intact for those who wish to continue pursuing that. If it all works out, everybody wins and a dilemma that's been dogging DC for the past twenty years will finally have an equitable solution.

The plan is good, but the effectiveness will depend largely on the execution.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[pood]

Just wait until they start crossing over. As soon as the idea sounds like it could make cash, they'll do it. And there goes what little continuity was left intact (if ever there was any. Crisis didn't really fix everything it claimed it would). This is what pisses off old school fans/collectors. The always possible cross over/team-up/one shot that screws up a perfectly straight series run.

[Gladiator X]

I'm a pretty major continuity freak but I'm kinda excited about this.I don't have the money to keep up on Supes and Bats regular titles so this will be cool because then I can collect a Batman comic(with the best Robin) and a Superman comic without having to buy 20 other titles.

I also think these will be cool comics to get people started on and if this goes over well then I might just move all my DC buying to this line.

[Altered Ego]

I think it is a good idea. Sounds like they will please old and possibly new fans....
Everyone is a winner.

[Ontir]

I just can't wait for this book. Morrison is to comics, what Charlie Kaufman is to film, and with Frank Quitely doing the pencils, it's going to be fantastic!

I just wish that Quitely had been in shape to do ALL of Morrison's New X-Men run!

[Altered Ego]

I can't wait!
I want to see Wonder Woman right away...
I wonder if Captain Marvel (Shazam) by Jeff Smith would fit in with this line?

[J.R.E.]

I've read the article again. There's nothing about the All-Star line being an Ultimate-style rehash continuity line _or_ "The return of the Pre-Crisis Continuity!".

The only thing it says is that it will be written and drawn to be as fun as possible, and as new reader friendly as possible...and that it won't be bogged down by the pre-existing monthlies.

So don't moan about the loss of continuity or celebrate the return of Earth 1 _yet_...because right now it sounds like neither is what the line is bringing.

[Altered Ego]

I imagine if these books do really well, the regular titles will pick up the stuff that goes over really well and will integrate it into the current books.
If the storyline doesn't go over well, it can be ignored.
I think it could be really cool.

[J.R.E.]

Huh? Could that be any more contradictory? It's not an alternate continuity but it uses a different version of today's characters. Uh, OK.


How is this contradictory?

The stories will be set during the time frame when Dick Grayson was Robin as far as All-Star Batman goes.

And Morrison hasn't revealed what the Lois/Superman relationship will be in All-Star Superman, so it could take place in the past, present, or future for all we know.

[protege]

I've read the article again. There's nothing about the All-Star line being an Ultimate-style rehash continuity line _or_ "The return of the Pre-Crisis Continuity!".

The only thing it says is that it will be written and drawn to be as fun as possible, and as new reader friendly as possible...and that it won't be bogged down by the pre-existing monthlies.

So don't moan about the loss of continuity or celebrate the return of Earth 1 _yet_...because right now it sounds like neither is what the line is bringing.
Well then, You haven't read the article in wizard which talks about bringing back the Super pets.

[Mr. Sued]

the way i see it, the All-Star line is not a "timeline" or "continuity" or "universe" at all. it's a device for DC to have stories told about their characters by creators who don't want to play in a continiuty laden universe. the concepts of the characters remain the same: Batman is Bruce Wayne who's parents were murdered right before his eyes. Superman is Kal-El rocketed to Earth to be raised by the Kents. Robin is Dick Grayson, no Nightwing or Jason Todd or Tim Drake. Green Lantern is Hal Jordan (no Spector), the Flash is Barry Allen (Wally who?). it's a way for readers who have NEVER read a comic (or have never read a DC comic) to jump right into the fun and not need a scorecard on who's who and what's what. it's a move away from the "realistic, grim and gritty" stories we're used to and bring a more fantastic, sci-fi, fantasy feel that the comic industry was originally built on. it's a return to SINGLE ISSUE, 22 PAGE STORIES (thank God)! no huge, continuity changing archs. no EVENTS. no issues where the main characters SIT AROUND AND TALK FOR 22 PAGES!, just good, old-fashioned action packed stories. this is a bold move for DC and a breath of fresh air for the comics community. give it a chance before you trash it.

[J.R.E.]

Well then, You haven't read the article in wizard which talks about bringing back the Super pets.


Krypto, Proty, and Comet have been back already for, like...YEARS. :)

[Mr. Sued]

the way i see it, the All-Star line is not a "timeline" or "continuity" or "universe" at all. it's a device for DC to have stories told about their characters by creators who don't want to play in a continiuty laden universe. the concepts of the characters remain the same: Batman is Bruce Wayne who's parents were murdered right before his eyes. Superman is Kal-El rocketed to Earth to be raised by the Kents. Robin is Dick Grayson, no Nightwing or Jason Todd or Tim Drake. Green Lantern is Hal Jordan (no Spector), the Flash is Barry Allen (Wally who?). it's a way for readers who have NEVER read a comic (or have never read a DC comic) to jump right into the fun and not need a scorecard on who's who and what's what. it's a move away from the "realistic, grim and gritty" stories we're used to and bring a more fantastic, sci-fi, fantasy feel that the comic industry was originally built on. it's a return to SINGLE ISSUE, 22 PAGE STORIES (thank God)! no huge, continuity changing archs. no EVENTS. no issues where the main characters SIT AROUND AND TALK FOR 22 PAGES!, just good, old-fashioned action packed stories. this is a bold move for DC and a breath of fresh air for the comics community. give it a chance before you trash it.

[Deathstroke]

Whooo Hooo!

DC will finally be putting out new books that I won't be buying!

[IamtheRock3]

if there going to ultimize batman I wouldnt put Robin in there let. Give it a more noir gothic 50's style it had but in the new century

[IamtheRock3]

oh Hal basicly going to be real continuty GL and we had a enough Revamps oF Hal. also sense he been away for a while he continuty is not that hard to jump on

So I would actully put Alan scot there just to mixed things up.

[Buried Alien]

if there going to ultimize batman I wouldnt put Robin in there let. Give it a more noir gothic 50's style it had but in the new century

I think that's what they're trying to get *away* from in the ALL-STARS series. There's enough of that pseudo "noir gothic" stuff going on in the regular Batbooks. What Batman needs is a title that will let him be a good, old-fashioned superhero again having good, old-fashioned superhero-style adventures...something darn near impossible to do with the Millerized Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[IamtheRock3]

the way i see it, the All-Star line is not a "timeline" or "continuity" or "universe" at all. it's a device for DC to have stories told about their characters by creators who don't want to play in a continiuty laden universe. the concepts of the characters remain the same: Batman is Bruce Wayne who's parents were murdered right before his eyes. Superman is Kal-El rocketed to Earth to be raised by the Kents. Robin is Dick Grayson, no Nightwing or Jason Todd or Tim Drake. Green Lantern is Hal Jordan (no Spector), the Flash is Barry Allen (Wally who?). it's a way for readers who have NEVER read a comic (or have never read a DC comic) to jump right into the fun and not need a scorecard on who's who and what's what. it's a move away from the "realistic, grim and gritty" stories we're used to and bring a more fantastic, sci-fi, fantasy feel that the comic industry was originally built on. it's a return to SINGLE ISSUE, 22 PAGE STORIES (thank God)! no huge, continuity changing archs. no EVENTS. no issues where the main characters SIT AROUND AND TALK FOR 22 PAGES!, just good, old-fashioned action packed stories. this is a bold move for DC and a breath of fresh air for the comics community. give it a chance before you trash it.

Isnt that basicly what the ultimate line is. Taking Old CLASSIC stories and setting them in MONDERN day

I mean probally going to read it but lets call a spade and spade
and they said the first superman story is a 12 issue Arc about him getting Sun radiation....an retelling of an old story mind you

[IamtheRock3]

wasnt think as 50's batman as batman being a turd

but just the general way the stories were told..kind of like New Frontier with more detetive stuff

[NickVinson]

I think that's what they're trying to get *away* from in the ALL-STARS series. There's enough of that pseudo "noir gothic" stuff going on in the regular Batbooks. What Batman needs is a title that will let him be a good, old-fashioned superhero again having good, old-fashioned superhero-style adventures...something darn near impossible to do with the Millerized Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


then... why dont they just hire writers to do that? why launch two new titles? why not just make this the regular thing to do on Superman and Batman?
why all this jargon about "Not really in continuity, but not an ultimate version" yadda yadda??
it just seems unnecessary.

[Buried Alien]

then... why dont they just hire writers to do that? why launch two new titles? why not just make this the regular thing to do on Superman and Batman?
why all this jargon about "Not really in continuity, but not an ultimate version" yadda yadda??
it just seems unnecessary.

Because DC essentially has two large fan bases whose wishes are irreconcilable: one group wants things to more or less stay the way they are; the other group wants something closer to the Pre-CRISIS DCU. Things like THE KINGDOM, reintroducing everything from Krypto and Supergirl to bringing Ollie and Hal back as Green Arrow and Green Lantern, making Impulse into Kid Flash, etc., were compromises to attempt to please both sides. Most compromises, however, end up being stopgap measures that really end up not pleasing anybody. ALL-STARS seems to be a way for DC to have its cake and eat it too: a line for Post-CRISIS DC fans who like things the way they are, and a line for Pre-CRISIS DC fans who want things more like they remembered.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Viking Bastard]

Isnt that basicly what the ultimate line is. Taking Old CLASSIC stories and setting them in MONDERN dayBut who's saying it'll all take place in modern day?

It might, but doesn't have to. It's a series of unconnected stories in undecided continuity.

[Gandt]

Now, I have a few problems with this. First, it isn't in a new universe. It is a continuity free book that allows writers and artists to visit any part of a characters history. While that is not a bad idea, we already have books like that in Legends of the Dark Knight and JLA: Classified. Why do we need more? Will those books mentioned above be canceled?

Jim Lee had some redesigns in the article about this that was printed in Wizard. I thought this wasn't a new universe. Why does Jim Lee need to redesign Batman and Robin's costumes? I thought this happened in the regular DCU, just not in current continuity? And, I will say that even though I am a huge Jim Lee fan, I hate the redesigns.

Didio described this book as having all star talent. While that is true, how does it make the people feel who write the normal books? Why do we need a new line of books just to showcase your best talents?

Now, I am sure these books will sell well, but I am not sure I fully understand DC's reasoning behind this, other than to make money. So chalk me up to hating the idea for now. What do you guys think?

[J.R.E.]

No where in any of the All-Star articles have I seen "This will be the return of the Pre-Crisis DCU".

I've seen "this will bring back the fun/anything-can-happen, iconic flavor of that era"...which is something a bit different.

[Mr. Sued]

Isnt that basicly what the ultimate line is. Taking Old CLASSIC stories and setting them in MONDERN day

I mean probally going to read it but lets call a spade and spade
and they said the first superman story is a 12 issue Arc about him getting Sun radiation....an retelling of an old story mind you



no, the Ultimate line took classic characters, put them in modern times and changed origins, changed costumes, and retold old stories with a new "modern" twist.

All-Stars doesn't change origins. it slightly changes costumes (Robin looks a tad redesigned), and tells stories free of continuity. and from the sound of it there's no time period All-Stars takes place in, so how is it set in modern day?

two differnt things, bro.

[bannermanonemillion]

It sounds more like Legends of the Dark Knight only for the DCU, right?

[Jack Tango]

Because DC essentially has two large fan bases whose wishes are irreconcilable: one group wants things to more or less stay the way they are; the other group wants something closer to the Pre-CRISIS DCU. Things like THE KINGDOM, reintroducing everything from Krypto and Supergirl to bringing Ollie and Hal back as Green Arrow and Green Lantern, making Impulse into Kid Flash, etc., were compromises to attempt to please both sides. Most compromises, however, end up being stopgap measures that really end up not pleasing anybody. ALL-STARS seems to be a way for DC to have its cake and eat it too: a line for Post-CRISIS DC fans who like things the way they are, and a line for Pre-CRISIS DC fans who want things more like they remembered.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
This isn't quite the same thing.

DC isn't trying to appeal to the Pre-Crisis fan.

They're trying to appeal to the CASUAL fan. The one that watches Smallville, or Batman: The Animated Series, or any of the movieses.

They're going with ICONIC representations (which means, I'm sure, they would have called the line "Icons" or something similar, if not for Marvel) -- the versions of the characters that EVERYONE is familiar with.

Without any sort of niggling continuity to worry about. Not Pre-Crisis, nor Post.

[Adam Crocker]

DC isn't trying to appeal to the Pre-Crisis fan.

They're trying to appeal to the CASUAL fan. The one that watches Smallville, or Batman: The Animated Series, or any of the movieses.

They're going with ICONIC representations (which means, I'm sure, they would have called the line "Icons" or something similar, if not for Marvel) -- the versions of the characters that EVERYONE is familiar with.

Without any sort of niggling continuity to worry about. Not Pre-Crisis, nor Post.

Yes, though their press release explicitly states that the ALL-STARS line will use versions of the characters largely based on their pre-crisis versions. Either way this certainly isn't an Ultimate line they are planning because the idea isn't to establish yet another set of continuity that will eventually accumulate upon itself.

That said this has something going for it that Ultimate Marvel doesn't, Grant Morrison. I'm so there.

[IamtheRock3]

no, the Ultimate line took classic characters, put them in modern times and changed origins, changed costumes, and retold old stories with a new "modern" twist.

All-Stars doesn't change origins. it slightly changes costumes (Robin looks a tad redesigned), and tells stories free of continuity. and from the sound of it there's no time period All-Stars takes place in, so how is it set in modern day?

two differnt things, bro.

They basicly said Superman has him starting in this century. Year one but set NOW

thats a differn universe my friend

and really ultimate didnt change the basic orgins that much

They just going into differnt direction
Ulitmate- Darker more realitc take on marvel

DC- Lighter..and more fantastic take on DC

[kossori]

All-Stars doesn't change origins. it slightly changes costumes (Robin looks a tad redesigned), and tells stories free of continuity. and from the sound of it there's no time period All-Stars takes place in, so how is it set in modern day?

two differnt things, bro.

There's pictures?
Where???

[Mr. Sued]

They basicly said Superman has him starting in this century. Year one but set NOW

thats a differn universe my friend

and really ultimate didnt change the basic orgins that much

They just going into differnt direction
Ulitmate- Darker more realitc take on marvel

DC- Lighter..and more fantastic take on DC


who said they were starting Superman at year one? quoting Morrison:

"This is classic Superman, the guy we all know and love from movies and cartoons and comic books... set in the early years of the 21st century with an eye twords the future. In the All-Star world Superman just went on as he had been [before the John Byrne revamp], having adventures with the bottle city of Kandor and the super dogs, cats and monkeys. Now fast forward this imaginary timeline to the year 2005 and that's where we pick up our story, as if 20 years and a whole world of unseen exploits and hardships have come and gone for the Man of Steel."

that doesn't sound like the Ultimate line to me. if anything it sounds as though the current post-Crisis universe is the "Ultimate" version of the DCU while the All-Star line will ignore Crisis and pick up where it left off. while this is a simplified look at All-Stars, it's a totally differnt animal than Ultimate. just bringing you the facts.

[Paradox]

pood brings up a stale old argument:

Just wait until they start crossing over.

Yeah, because they'd HAVE to. I mean, Marvel's been crossing over their big money maker Ultimate Universe with the MU for...

oh...never mind. :)

[NickVinson]

yeah but how many of those 'casual' fans can be bothered to travel to a comics store and pick up these 'All-Star' comics?

[Apathy Boy]

How is this contradictory?

The stories will be set during the time frame when Dick Grayson was Robin as far as All-Star Batman goes.

And Morrison hasn't revealed what the Lois/Superman relationship will be in All-Star Superman, so it could take place in the past, present, or future for all we know.The article jboncha posted says DC All-Stars will not be an alternate continuity from the Post-Crisis DC Universe ... but will somehow feature characters as they appeared Pre-Crisis. How is that not contradictory?

And, contrary to speculation, the All-Stars books will not create a new or alternate continuity like the "Ultimate" books do, but will instead contain stories told in present day but utilizing what could be described as timeless, iconic, Pre-Crisis versions of the DCU's top characters.Don't know if you're familiar with DC's history, but Pre-Crisis is indeed a separate continuity from what we're reading today (the "Post-Crisis" DCU). So I don't understand how DC can say this isn't a different continuity when they are using characters that are clearly different from the ones that exist in the "mainstream" universe.

NOTE: I am not complaining about DC putting out a line of Ultimate/Pre-Crisis. I just think they've done an awful job of explaining it.

[Dante]

In the article off of Newsarama they stated that they were going for new readers, which I think is a great idea. I don't think that I will continualy pick up the Superman book because I already get all the superman I can. But I would be interested in the Batman and perhaps other characters that I'm not too familar with. Some of the characters that I don't know much about I am scared to read because I think I will be lost. For example I picked up a JSA book a couple of weeks ago and I was totally confused. I had no idea who these people were and what was happening. This is sort of what I feel with Batman too, not so much as the JSA or the JLA but I still get a little confused. But I think it could be really good to get new readers familar with characters like Hawkman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern... the characters that aren't as big and out there in the world as Superman and Batman.

Dante

[Brian R]

They basicly said Superman has him starting in this century. Year one but set NOW

thats a differn universe my friend

and really ultimate didnt change the basic orgins that much

They just going into differnt direction
Ulitmate- Darker more realitc take on marvel

DC- Lighter..and more fantastic take on DC


You need to either re-read the article, or improve your reading comprehension. Thats not what they said AT ALL. Check out the Grant Morrison article on Newsarama, it should clear things up for you.

[Mr. Sued]

The article jboncha posted says DC All-Stars will not be an alternate continuity from the Post-Crisis DC Universe ... but will somehow feature characters as they appeared Pre-Crisis. How is that not contradictory?

Don't know if you're familiar with DC's history, but Pre-Crisis is indeed a separate continuity from what we're reading today (the "Post-Crisis" DCU). So I don't understand how DC can say this isn't a different continuity when they are using characters that are clearly different from the ones that exist in the "mainstream" universe.

NOTE: I am not complaining about DC putting out a line of Ultimate/Pre-Crisis. I just think they've done an awful job of explaining it.



i think the term "pre-Crisis" is being used as an adjective, not a specific point in DCU continuity. DC is saying these are the DC characters EVERYONE knows. before Crisis the DCU was kinda cotinuity free where anyone could pick up a title and enjoy a single issue story. this is the whole point of All-Stars, to give easy access to the DCU for new readers. if we take pre-Crisis literally, that means DC is restarting an OLD continuity, which would make the current DCU the NEW continuity by defalt. so for the past 20 years DC already had an Ultimate universe. damn theiving Marvel!

[Suzanne]

It sounds interesting, though I'm not interesting in reading about Batman and Superman. I hope there's more to it than that.

[Brian R]

Except, they really havent Ultimized DC, I really wish people would pay more attention to the articles instead of latching on to a few buzzwords.

The stories dont take place in current continuity. However, there will be no changing of people's origins, radical makeovers of classic villains, or vastly different personalities. Of course, that could be argued with Bats, since he will probably resemble the silver age version more than the post DKR-I hate my life Batman.

Yes, it is DC's answer to Marvel's Ultimate line, and they do want people to view it as such because it will mean good sales. But its not the same concept, they are not building a new universe from the ground up, just letting creators tell stories about the characters using their golden/silver-age incarnations. I just look at it as Elseworldsish, which is way better than the Ultimate universe for me.

[NickVinson]

my point is... why bother launching two new titles? why not just put these two creative teams on the existing books? you can use the same approach.

yeah yeah... im a total Morrison mark anyway. so.. count me in for Superman.

[Brian R]

my point is... why bother launching two new titles? why not just put these two creative teams on the existing books? you can use the same approach.

yeah yeah... im a total Morrison mark anyway. so.. count me in for Superman.

Because if you put them on the regular books, then Dick Grayson couldnt be Robin, and Superman couldnt feature a Lois&Clark who arent married, etc...

Thats it in a nutshell.

[Jack Tango]

my point is... why bother launching two new titles? why not just put these two creative teams on the existing books? you can use the same approach.

yeah yeah... im a total Morrison mark anyway. so.. count me in for Superman.Simple, yet highly effective, marketing. That's why.

The principle is the same as found in the Ultimate line of comics. Craft easily accessible versions of well-known characters, and present them in the biggest and best way possible.

By drawing the casual reader to the title, they are drawing them to the character. If they are drawn to the character, they will want to read more of the character. If they want to read more of the character, they will seek out their other titles.

DC's All Star line will represent it's characters iconically, making them easilly identifiable by the average person. It'll be the character they grew up with, no matter which version they grew up with.

DC is hoping that the books do fantastically well, and the other books see a huge boost. These two titles will have the buzz, and the pull, to do so.

In theory.

We'll see how well that works...

[Reynard]

why not just put these two creative teams on the existing books?

Because the existing books are so bogged down in the modern era continuity that they don't nearly qualify as "iconic". which is what DC is obviously attempting to capitalize on. Superman and Batman are arguably the most recognizable pop culture icons in existence (perhaps Mickey Mouse beats them), but no one knows that Spoiler was Robin for a day or that Lois and Clark are married, or that Batman secretly hates all the other super heroes in the world. What they know is that Clark kent dashes out of the Daily Planet offices to take down giant moon robots, which Bruce Wayne grabs his young ward and leaps into the Batmobile to drive off and fight the joker. And, really, do they need to know anything else? Continuity is great for fandom, but does more harm than good for mainstreaming comics. i think this is a good move by DC and I hope they put their real muscle behind it: in all honesty, no one outside of fandom would care one whit who is writing or drawing it. The real issue is going to be where it can be bought. if they get it on the shelves of KB Toys right next to the the Batman toys or near the sci-fi-fantasy-family section of Blockbuster, they are doing their job. hell, Time Warner has to own a dozen and a half magazines. Throw some stories in those and then tell poeple where to get the (and this is IMPORTANT) single issue stories in their local CVS.

[tymac]

The real issue is going to be where it can be bought. if they get it on the shelves of KB Toys right next to the the Batman toys or near the sci-fi-fantasy-family section of Blockbuster, they are doing their job. hell, Time Warner has to own a dozen and a half magazines. Throw some stories in those and then tell poeple where to get the (and this is IMPORTANT) single issue stories in their local CVS.


Great point, if they have any sense (debatable at times), they'll won't waste the effort marketing these books to us(longtime fans). They should push these as gateway books for new readers. Get people interested in comics again. That is what the industy needs. I like the idea of cross-promoting in magazines.

I'm also glad that it isn't an "Ultimate " ripoff because there are some things in that line that I haven't liked (mostly the villians).

I'll buy them, because I'm a comic junkie and I love the takes that Batman(TAS) and Superman(TAS) had on those characters. Both series used iconic versions of the characters with success. Since it seems that they're going in a similar direction here, I'm sure that I will enjoy these.

[mckracken]

*Yawn* So much buzz over a few Elseworlds.

[J.R.E.]

*Yawn* So much buzz over a few Elseworlds.


Except the article says these book are _not_ alternate universe stories, _not_ "Let's rehash old continuity in the modern day"...not _anything_ I'm seeing fans panic about.

They're just comics you won't need to read 4-5 other titles in order to decipher, aimed at new readers.

It's not "Elseworlds/Hypertime/Ultimate" DC...it's "You can read this an recognize it without a scorecard" DC.

[BlackKnight]

Except the article says these book are _not_ alternate universe stories, _not_ "Let's rehash old continuity in the modern day"...not _anything_ I'm seeing fans panic about.

They're just comics you won't need to read 4-5 other titles in order to decipher, aimed at new readers.

It's not "Elseworlds/Hypertime/Ultimate" DC...it's "You can read this an recognize it without a scorecard" DC.

They can say that they are not the DC version of Ultimate Universe all they want, but in the end, that is exactly what they are.

Lets look
Ultimate univers
Marvel charaters restarted with no continuity so that new readers can get into them.

DC idea
DC charaters with no continuity so that new readers can get into them.

Boy that seems similar...

[Jack Tango]

They can say that they are not the DC version of Ultimate Universe all they want, but in the end, that is exactly what they are.

Lets look
Ultimate univers
Marvel charaters restarted with no continuity so that new readers can get into them.

DC idea
DC charaters with no continuity so that new readers can get into them.

Boy that seems similar...
That's painting in fairly broad strokes, though.

Ultimate Marvel takes the character concepts and relaunches them with a 21st century sensibility.

All Star DC takes the characters themselves, and shows the very best possible stories they can, without worrying about "relaunches" or "continuity."

Maybe, if you don't look too hard into it, they seem the same.

Otherwise, fairly different.

Just wait and see.

[glennsim]

Just to try to illustrate the difference between Ultimate and All-Stars (as I understand them)...

Peter Parker became a Web designer, because being a photographer wasn't very "modern", despite that being what the general populace who is even a little bit familiar with Spider-Man is used to.

Clark Kent will stay a reporter, because despite not being very modern, that's what the general populace who is even a little bit familiar is used to.

Ultimate was about "changing what has always been the case". All-Stars seems to be about "ignoring the change that has already happened."

[BlackKnight]

Just to try to illustrate the difference between Ultimate and All-Stars (as I understand them)...

Peter Parker became a Web designer, because being a photographer wasn't very "modern", despite that being what the general populace who is even a little bit familiar with Spider-Man is used to.

Clark Kent will stay a reporter, because despite not being very modern, that's what the general populace who is even a little bit familiar is used to.

Ultimate was about "changing what has always been the case". All-Stars seems to be about "ignoring the change that has already happened."


Anyway you look at it they are going to ignore continum, and make a book for people who don't want to bother to look into the rich history of the charaters, and make it so the writers don't have to do there job and actually research the charaters. Marvel has been doing this to there regular MU charaters for the last couple of years, and seem to keep on having to reboot.
I will give DC one thing at least they were smart enough to leave the charaters along in there books. So if you don't want to buy the watered down versions then you don't have to.

[mckracken]

He went from Photographer to Web-Designer? Ugh.
Yet Another reminder to never touch an ultimate.

[Jack Tango]

Just to try to illustrate the difference between Ultimate and All-Stars (as I understand them)...

Peter Parker became a Web designer, because being a photographer wasn't very "modern", despite that being what the general populace who is even a little bit familiar with Spider-Man is used to.

Clark Kent will stay a reporter, because despite not being very modern, that's what the general populace who is even a little bit familiar is used to.

Ultimate was about "changing what has always been the case". All-Stars seems to be about "ignoring the change that has already happened."
That's a mildly negative way of looking at things.

It's not so much that DC is ignoring change, so much as they are not letting the niggling details bog down fun stories.

Marvel's Utlimate Universe is an entirely new continuity for the titles. DC's All Star line is Iconic Visions. It's what you're familiar with, no matter what you're familiar with.

It's the ESSENSE and KEY DETAILS of the characters presented in the biggest, brightest possible way.

[DarkSoldier]

He went from Photographer to Web-Designer? Ugh.
Yet Another reminder to never touch an ultimate.The reason why Peter's job at the Bugle changed in Ultimate Spider-Man was because the idea behind the Ultimate line is "What if Marvel's characters were created now, instead of back in the early 60's?"

I don't understand why people unequivocally hate on the Ultimate line.

[mckracken]

The whole Ultimate line is a bloated "What if" that never stops and evidence of incapacity for Marvel.

Instead of creating anew, Gwen is killed by Carnage instead of the Goblin.
How creative....

[kossori]

What'll happen if the books get sold in grocery stores or other outlets:

Kid: "Look mom... it's Batman!"
Mom: "Isn't he a cartoon? Now he's got a comic, too??"

[davids]

remember some talk about that when DK2 came out. Could this be related? Like to see what happens to old bat and catgirl. Superman, his daughter Lara and his lover mistress Diana queen of the Amazons?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well, I hate to bust the bubble of all this pointless fanboy kvetching, but this All-Star line is nothing new.

What do you think all those Paul Dini/Alex Ross stories have been? They ignored the contradictions and minutae of current DCU continuity and just told solid stories featuring the classic versions of Superman, Batman, Shazam and the Justice League. Morrison and company are just being allowed to the same thing--tell the best stories they can without having to worry about whether or not it contradicts some story no one but fanboys read and nobody liked to begin with.

DC has been putting out these kinds of accessible, reader-friendly stories for years and the sky hasn't fallen yet, so I don't think you guys have anything to worry about.

All this is about is giving creators the freedom to tell the best stories they can with the company's best characters. The fact that some fans actually have a problem with that explains why the comics industry has such a big problem bringing in new readers. Some of the old readers obviously don't want new readers--they want comics to only be for those in their secret little club and any attempts to invite new members must be shouted down at every possible opportunity.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think the "All-Star" line will kick ass. I'm already wanting on "Batman & Robin" as well as "Superman."


Some may hate It , but Its there loss. DC Is creating something fun here and Its square 1# to jump onto as a new & older fan.

[discostu]

wow, who knew DC had continuity anyway? it'll be funny when the whole universe is continuity-less. at least they finally got smart enough to rip off marvel again.

[Brian R]

wow, who knew DC had continuity anyway? it'll be funny when the whole universe is continuity-less. at least they finally got smart enough to rip off marvel again.

If it wasnt for the fact that the Ultimate universe is basically a rip-off of a classic DC concept, I would be inclined to agree with you. After all, what is the Ultimate U. if not "Marvel Earth-2"?

[yenaled]

I don't hate the idea, I just won't be buying them. I can see why people would buy it, buy I'm ok with the amount of books I pick up at the moment.

[discostu]

If it wasnt for the fact that the Ultimate universe is basically a rip-off of a classic DC concept, I would be inclined to agree with you. After all, what is the Ultimate U. if not "Marvel Earth-2"?
yeah, earth 2... that really worked out for you guys, didn't it? well, I guess if you've been playing catch up for forty years you probably get used to it. let me guess, three years from now we will have ALL STAR CRISIS! and all star will overtake the "original" universe when sue dibny returns from the dead as the new spectre and changes reality as we know it!

[Sk8maven]

Sounds like a revival of "Legends of the DCU" under another name.

Maven

[Naldo]

I think the line is a great idea. I'm nearly 41 and until last July, hadn't picked up a comic book in 25 years. For me, the DC All-star line is perfect. Dick Grayson is the only Robin I've ever known.

It's not the DC Ultimate line, but it's a way of capturing that type of audience in, what I think, is a pretty cool way. Instead of a re-imagining as the Ultimate line does, All-Stars is more like Iconic characters with modern day talent.

Hey look, it's my first post!

[powerforward]

i believe in wizard, the article talked about superman being the pre-crisis version, while no mention of the same for batman.

[Taskmaster]

I've read the article again. There's nothing about the All-Star line being an Ultimate-style rehash continuity line _or_ "The return of the Pre-Crisis Continuity!".

The only thing it says is that it will be written and drawn to be as fun as possible, and as new reader friendly as possible...and that it won't be bogged down by the pre-existing monthlies.

So don't moan about the loss of continuity or celebrate the return of Earth 1 _yet_...because right now it sounds like neither is what the line is bringing.

Morrison and "reader-friendly" don't work well together in a sentance for me. I can't stand Quietly's art either, most overrated artist in the business so I wont be reading Superman which is a shame since I really liked the Pre Crisis Superman that they seem to be leaning toward working with again from his Wizard artical, but Batman will have some awesome art so I may at least look trhough it, but I already don't like the looks of the costumes

[retcon74]

Morrison and "reader-friendly" don't work well together in a sentance for me. I can't stand Quietly's art either, most overrated artist in the business so I wont be reading Superman which is a shame since I really liked the Pre Crisis Superman that they seem to be leaning toward working with again from his Wizard artical, but Batman will have some awesome art so I may at least look trhough it, but I already don't like the looks of the costumes

With the holidays, I've kind of lost track of what's already been discussed. So, can someone remind me of where I can see some examples of the costumes for All-Star Batman?

[Mon-el]

With the holidays, I've kind of lost track of what's already been discussed. So, can someone remind me of where I can see some examples of the costumes for All-Star Batman?


They was pictured in the Wizard 160

Here is a pic of Batman & Robin:

[Brian R]

yeah, earth 2... that really worked out for you guys, didn't it? well, I guess if you've been playing catch up for forty years you probably get used to it. let me guess, three years from now we will have ALL STAR CRISIS! and all star will overtake the "original" universe when sue dibny returns from the dead as the new spectre and changes reality as we know it!

Marvel has outsold DC for much of its existence, that speaks nothing to the quality of the books. Its true that for a long time Marvel was putting out superior comics, but that certainly wasnt the case this year, so you can cut the sarcasm.

As for Earth 2, once again, what do sales have to do with it? If its a rip-off then thats what it is, just because the copy sold better than the original doesnt mean zip, there could be any number of reasons for that.

You like to use sarcasm, obviously, and its easy to make fun of some of the things that go on in comics, but do you really think I cant do the same thing you did but just insert bone-headed Marvel stories in place? I didnt take any kind of tone with you in my original post, and I dont see why you took it so personally, I was simply pointing out why I didnt agree with your viewpoint, no need to get defensive.

[mckracken]

They was pictured in the Wizard 160

Here is a pic of Batman & Robin:

MY GOD, that looks like... Batman and Robin!!
Why I never. How ultimate.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

This Is gonna kick a lotta ass I think. I've already told the guys at my shop and they all went and grabbed a Wizard and paid for It to look! I laughed my ass off...because...It was funny to see.

Nice news. "Ultimate DC" vs "Ultimate Marvel".

[dancj]

Ultimate univers
Marvel charaters restarted with no continuity so that new readers can get into them.

DC idea
DC charaters with no continuity so that new readers can get into them.
Ultimate Marvel - start the Marvel characters from scrach in a new continuity to give people a new place where they can start from without missing out on anything. Note - this doesn't mean no continuity - it just means not the same continuity as the originals.

DC All Stars - A series of stand-alone stories based on the versions of characters that most non-comic readers would recognise that they can pick up without haveing read anything that comes before.

They really are completely different

[MicroZone]

yeah but how many of those 'casual' fans can be bothered to travel to a comics store and pick up these 'All-Star' comics?

Hopefully DC isn't stupid enough to try to market this only to comic shops.

If DC is smart, every store that sells magazines will have these comics. Every theatre that runs Batman Begins would carry All Star Batman & Robin #1 at the concession stand. Every Blockbuster would have the singles and/or the digest reprints when the DVD comes out. Every Wal-mart and Toys R Us check-out line needs to have copies of both titles every month just like the supermarket's have for the Archie digests. Every place that kids go should sell these comics.

[hugh45]

So,basically this will be an else world universe w/ some subtle changes.

[Paradox]

hugh45 isn't getting it:

So,basically this will be an else world universe w/ some subtle changes.

I'm doubting "universe" even applies. They'll just be telling stories. I think "setting" will probably be up to each writer. More like a series of "Elseworlds", but not done in typical Elseworlds fashion.

[dancj]

So,basically this will be an else world universe w/ some subtle changes.
Only if you consider every story that doesn't take place in the mainstream DCU to be Elseworlds

[mastaflan]

Whooo Hooo!

DC will finally be putting out new books that I won't be buying!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. I know...

I wish DC just kept it simple and did an Ultimate Universe deal. Not for the main heros but so that the supporting characters can be made cooler. Especially with all the crazy characters ever made in the DC universe. Ultimatizing Things I feel would and should unsaturate the DC universe.

[T Rath]

Hopefully DC isn't stupid enough to try to market this only to comic shops.

If DC is smart, every store that sells magazines will have these comics. Every theatre that runs Batman Begins would carry All Star Batman & Robin #1 at the concession stand. Every Blockbuster would have the singles and/or the digest reprints when the DVD comes out. Every Wal-mart and Toys R Us check-out line needs to have copies of both titles every month just like the supermarket's have for the Archie digests. Every place that kids go should sell these comics.

Someone gets it! Now if only DC gets it, this business could actually flourish!

[Dave Cote]

I don't really care about continuity I just want a good story so I will decide on the basis of that if I like it I'll buy it if I don't I won't. No baggage or concern about what universe it's in or what brand of gum Batman chewed in January of 1983 sounds like a good thing to me.

[sugmasterflex]

Hopefully DC isn't stupid enough to try to market this only to comic shops.

If DC is smart, every store that sells magazines will have these comics. Every theatre that runs Batman Begins would carry All Star Batman & Robin #1 at the concession stand. Every Blockbuster would have the singles and/or the digest reprints when the DVD comes out. Every Wal-mart and Toys R Us check-out line needs to have copies of both titles every month just like the supermarket's have for the Archie digests. Every place that kids go should sell these comics.

Good point.

Barnes&Nobles and Borders alone should sell a lot.

[Naldo]

But it's NOT Elseworlds, it's not What If and it's not Ultimate!

It's Back to the drawing board. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Personally I thought New Frontier was one of the best series of comics this year and for a LONG time.

So if the stories are going back to the golden and silver age roots written and drawn by todays artists, then what the heck is everyone's problem? Some of you take this crap way too seriously, they're COMIC BOOKS.

edit: hey look only my second post and i'm already peeved :D

[lonewolf23k]

Well, I like it. Just the story ideas make me salivate... "Krull, an evolved dinosaur dictator who rules a monstrous civilization at the center of the earth" Geez... It's like Morisson is channeling the Silver Age...

[hotrodimus]

skeptic about the whole idea so far.. but as long as they keep getting great writers, i'm will be in. but im hoping this would be more than just superman and batman..(yeah i know it always have to be them...).. question tho.. if this would be pre-crisis, then there's a chance we will be seeing the overpowered Superman?

[discostu]

Marvel has outsold DC for much of its existence, that speaks nothing to the quality of the books. Its true that for a long time Marvel was putting out superior comics, but that certainly wasnt the case this year, so you can cut the sarcasm.

As for Earth 2, once again, what do sales have to do with it? If its a rip-off then thats what it is, just because the copy sold better than the original doesnt mean zip, there could be any number of reasons for that.

You like to use sarcasm, obviously, and its easy to make fun of some of the things that go on in comics, but do you really think I cant do the same thing you did but just insert bone-headed Marvel stories in place? I didnt take any kind of tone with you in my original post, and I dont see why you took it so personally, I was simply pointing out why I didnt agree with your viewpoint, no need to get defensive.
Actually, that speaks exclusively to the quality of both the core ideas behind the stories and the stories themselves. That is how the free market works, if something is good, people buy it. And if DC's quality was so much better, considering the far greater backing that AOLTIMEWARNER gives to them, they would have killed MARVEL by now, hell, they would own MARVEL by now.

At least your sarcasm radar is up and running again, you had me scared there for a second. And, yes, it is easy to make fun of bad comicbook stories, even more so when a company keeps repeating the same mistake every two years. Up next... QUALITY CRISIS! geoff johns writes a story that stars every fifth string DC character ever! No A listers!

[discostu]

wow, I DO like to use sarcasm... who knew?

[Alex Dragon]

Ultimate Marvel - start the Marvel characters from scrach in a new continuity to give people a new place where they can start from without missing out on anything. Note - this doesn't mean no continuity - it just means not the same continuity as the originals.

DC All Stars - A series of stand-alone stories based on the versions of characters that most non-comic readers would recognise that they can pick up without haveing read anything that comes before.

They really are completely different

Personally, I'd rather see an "Ultimate" type of line from DC. Start from the beginning and throw out all the silly stuff that doesn't work and use stuff from the present and/or past that works and update everything in a easier to follow continuity. This idea sounds like it's just shoving more tangled continuity into an already complicated DC (If they're doing what I think they're trying to do).

I'm not nearly as nostalgic as most people seem to be. Quite frankly I like today's Batman, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman better than the pre-Crisis versions. The reason they changed them back then in the first place was because they were stagnant, stale and boring.

[comic_lover]

This is from an Article at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AllStarSuperman_Morrison.htm). Check out the link for the full story.


I am not in big favor for this.. Neither am I,but it's a trend....and comic book publishers follow trends.Remember Foil Covers from the 90's ?

[Bat-Mite]

That is how the free market works, if something is good, people buy it.

WRONG. Ferraris are much better than Toyotas, and guess which one sells.

Price is very important.

Also, marketing, publicity, PR, familiarity and hype can and will move a product to sell better than other products with less advertising budget even if those have better quality, unless the product in question is so bad it is impossible to sell. Mediocre is enough most of the time to make it big.

Do not try to simplify market forces like that, mind you.

[Bat-Mite]

Neither am I

Again, how in hell's name two new series nobody is forcing you to buy destroy your life as you knew it?

[comic_lover]

Again, how in hell's name two new series nobody is forcing you to buy destroy your life as you knew it? Destroy my life ? Not hardly.Create redundant comics,there by creating over exposured characters ? Yes.Let me give your a further explanation...as with Marvel's Ultimate Universe,we have basically the same characters with random variations co-existing in the same market - which basically splits the talent pool down the middle.You see,truth be told,although there are good writers and artists out there,there are not very many A list writers or artists to go around.By having too many books it's easy to lose focus,and what can start out being a very good book could end up in cancellation. ( Moon Knight,Thunderbolts,and Heroes For Hire are good examples )The market is not as big as it once was,and more books featuring ( basically )the same characters is redundant and unnecessary.

How do we bring about something thats both traditional and fresh ? Focus on fewer books with more quality.Let Writers bring about change to characters,but don't let them change the basic idea of the character.For example,I'm not a big fan of the changes to Spidey lately,but it's better than no change at all.Now on the other end of the coin you have bad change,like what happened with the Avengers,and in the Morrison run on New X-Men.... but at least they attempted to bring about something diferent.

Just as any good business would do in a slow economy,Marvel and DC need to concentrate on a small number of books that have better quality and not on stupid hype like Identity Crisis.Fans will be there if the books are of good quality,if not they wont.Unlike what most of the free world thinks of comic book fans,we are usually highly educated and enjoy well written material as much as the next fellow.The difference ? We're just a wee bit more anal about what we like and don't like.

[mastaflan]

Destroy my life ? Not hardly.Create redundant comics,there by creating over exposured characters ? Yes.Let me give your a further explanation...as with Marvel's Ultimate Universe,we have basically the same characters with random variations co-existing in the same market - which basically splits the talent pool down the middle.You see,truth be told,although there are good writers and artists out there,there are not very many A list writers or artists to go around.By having too many books it's easy to lose focus,and what can start out being a very good book could end up in cancellation. ( Moon Knight,Thunderbolts,and Heroes For Hire are good examples )The market is not as big as it once was,and more books featuring ( basically )the same characters is redundant and unnecessary.

How do we bring about something thats both traditional and fresh ? Focus on fewer books with more quality.Let Writers bring about change to characters,but don't let them change the basic idea of the character.For example,I'm not a big fan of the changes to Spidey lately,but it's better than no change at all.Now on the other end of the coin you have bad change,like what happened with the Avengers,and in the Morrison run on New X-Men.... but at least they attempted to bring about something diferent.

Just as any good business would do in a slow economy,Marvel and DC need to concentrate on a small number of books that have better quality and not on stupid hype like Identity Crisis.Fans will be there if the books are of good quality,if not they wont.Unlike what most of the free world thinks of comic book fans,we are usually highly educated and enjoy well written material as much as the next fellow.The difference ? We're just a wee bit more anal about what we like and don't like.


Agreeed. I am a believeer in the Ultimate Line Mission. I think that DC can Benefit from the same treatment.

[mckracken]

Destroy my life ? Not hardly.Create redundant comics,there by creating over exposured characters ? Yes.Let me give your a further explanation...as with Marvel's Ultimate Universe,we have basically the same characters with random variations co-existing in the same market - which basically splits the talent pool down the middle.You see,truth be told,although there are good writers and artists out there,there are not very many A list writers or artists to go around.By having too many books it's easy to lose focus,and what can start out being a very good book could end up in cancellation. ( Moon Knight,Thunderbolts,and Heroes For Hire are good examples )The market is not as big as it once was,and more books featuring ( basically )the same characters is redundant and unnecessary.

How do we bring about something thats both traditional and fresh ? Focus on fewer books with more quality.Let Writers bring about change to characters,but don't let them change the basic idea of the character.For example,I'm not a big fan of the changes to Spidey lately,but it's better than no change at all.Now on the other end of the coin you have bad change,like what happened with the Avengers,and in the Morrison run on New X-Men.... but at least they attempted to bring about something diferent.

Just as any good business would do in a slow economy,Marvel and DC need to concentrate on a small number of books that have better quality and not on stupid hype like Identity Crisis.Fans will be there if the books are of good quality,if not they wont.Unlike what most of the free world thinks of comic book fans,we are usually highly educated and enjoy well written material as much as the next fellow.The difference ? We're just a wee bit more anal about what we like and don't like.

I like your points Comic Lover. Too agree that its a waste of time and resourches to puplish remixes of existing material and sell em as fresh.
(see Ultimate line from Marvel)

[Headhunter]

I liked this when it was called Elseworlds.

[Apathy Boy]

Actually, that speaks exclusively to the quality of both the core ideas behind the stories and the stories themselves. That is how the free market works, if something is good, people buy it. And if DC's quality was so much better, considering the far greater backing that AOLTIMEWARNER gives to them, they would have killed MARVEL by now, hell, they would own MARVEL by now.

At least your sarcasm radar is up and running again, you had me scared there for a second. And, yes, it is easy to make fun of bad comicbook stories, even more so when a company keeps repeating the same mistake every two years. Up next... QUALITY CRISIS! geoff johns writes a story that stars every fifth string DC character ever! No A listers!Funny, I had the very same thought while I was listening to the new Britney Spears CD in my Toyota (TM Bat-Mite) on the way to McDonalds. But all that thinking started to hurt my brain, so I went to see Meet the Fockers to relax.

Sales do not equal quality, and vice versa. Marketing, brand loyalty, demographics, business models, etc. all play a part in determining what comic books sell. Not to mention some nasty distribution practices on the part of Marvel.

[Captain Blitz]

I liked this when it was called Elseworlds.

Why should they call it Elseworlds when it actually takes place in the "standard" DCU? Elseworlds would imply that they tell stories about different realities etc. which is not the case.

[Alex Dragon]

Why should they call it Elseworlds when it actually takes place in the "standard" DCU? Elseworlds would imply that they tell stories about different realities etc. which is not the case.

How can they say it's in the standard DCU when they claim they're going back before "Crisis" happened and act like "Crisis" never took place and do stories in a modern "Crisis never happened" setting?

DC is trying very hard not to call these things Elsewhere/Elseworld stories but from what they're saying that's basically what they are. They're also trying to avoid the line being thought of as an "Ultimate" DC but it would've made more sense to actually do that.
It doesn't really matter to me either way though. If I think they're good books I'll pick them up.

[GUTB]

All-Stars is basically an Elseworlds, but called something else purely for marketing reasons. In general, it could be said these Elsewords are meant to be an answer to Ultimate Marvel. Except while the Ultimate line modernizes and the characters and stories (or at least tries to), All-Stars will actually go back in time and de-modernize so it's not exactly correct to call it "Ultimate DC".

In short: it's an Elsewords aimed at Ultimate Marvel. What worries me is that DC now seems to think being backwards is a marketable trait. But oh well.

[mckracken]

Ill make it easier for all of you:

If its selling well enough its going to be DC's Ultimate, if it fails it was just an elseworlds.

[Bat-Mite]

Create redundant comics,there by creating over exposured characters ? Yes.

I don't think there is such thing as overexposure. If Marvel publishes ten series about the X-Men, is because they can sell ten series about the X-Men and make a profit. The problem is when they can't sell ten series about the x-Men, and they keep trying.

Dc has not reached that point, yet. And frankly, I wouldn't worry until they do, which is the part where they stop, or prove they are morons.

Let me give your a further explanation...as with Marvel's Ultimate Universe,we have basically the same characters with random variations co-existing in the same market - which basically splits the talent pool down the middle.

And those Ultimate versions, for whatever reasons they had, sold better than the not-Ultimate versions, even though they had A list talent working on them. Ultimates had Millar and Hitch while Avengers had Busiek, PErez and Davis. Spider-Man had Extra-Chinsky and Romita, while Ultimate Spider-Man had Bendis and whoever the hell draws that book.

Ultimates sold better, despite both group of books had A list talent. Maybe it doesn't matter all that much to me and you, but some people out there really like it when old stuff get a new coat of paint.

You see,truth be told,although there are good writers and artists out there,there are not very many A list writers or artists to go around.By having too many books it's easy to lose focus,and what can start out being a very good book could end up in cancellation. ( Moon Knight,Thunderbolts,and Heroes For Hire are good examples )The market is not as big as it once was,and more books featuring ( basically )the same characters is redundant and unnecessary.

Dude, if you can sell it, then go ahead and try to sell it. DC doesn't publish a bazillion Batman books because they just felt like doing so, they publish a bazillion Batman books because they can sell those. It's not that Plastic Man and other good books get lost and get cancelled because there is a million Batman books out there, they get lost and get canceled because people out there don't want to try new things and read something besides Batman.

How do we bring about something thats both traditional and fresh ? Focus on fewer books with more quality.Let Writers bring about change to characters,but don't let them change the basic idea of the character.For example,I'm not a big fan of the changes to Spidey lately,but it's better than no change at all.Now on the other end of the coin you have bad change,like what happened with the Avengers,and in the Morrison run on New X-Men.... but at least they attempted to bring about something diferent.

Bad change according to you. The problem here is that not everybody will agree with you, and not every comic book readers happens to be you.

Just as any good business would do in a slow economy,Marvel and DC need to concentrate on a small number of books that have better quality and not on stupid hype like Identity Crisis.

You should be glad you caught me in a good mood, so I won't make fun of you now with a sarcastic answer and.... oh, who am I kidding...

Yeah, stupid DC focusing on a series that sold like crazy. Yeah, apparently they don't know anything about good business. And Marvel should cancel their best selling titles, cause we sure as hell don't need those Ultimates crap around here!

Come on.

Fans will be there if the books are of good quality

No they won't.

Plastic Man is a great book that just won the Eisner award, and nobody except for a handful of people read it.

X-Men could be written by mutant monkeys and people would still read it.

So... NO.

,if not they wont.Unlike what most of the free world thinks of comic book fans,we are usually highly educated and enjoy well written material as much as the next fellow.

I am afraid you haven't been paying attention then.

[tricksterpup]

From All the Rage (http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm) by Blair Marnell

Silver Stars

Just over a week ago, DC finally came out with the official word on DC All Stars, their answer to Marvel’s Ultimate line. While the Grant Morrison & Frank Quitely Superman and Jim Lee on Batman & Robin announcements came off as expected, there was nothing said about the Geoff Johns and Adam Hughes Wonder Woman project. Not to mention Jeph Loeb’s sudden absence from B&R. The lack of information here is somewhat puzzling. We had more information on the creative teams coming out of Wizard World Chicago than what appeared in the magazine itself! Either they’re holding back to feed the hype or plans have changed.

As it stands, the line seems half-formed and just screams of decision by committee. From what I’ve heard, it took them quite a while to even settle on the name. At one point they were actually going to call the line “DC Silver.” Not that DC All Stars is much better. The problem with the current name is that it kind of implies that the creative teams on the core DCU titles aren’t on the same level as their “All Stars” counterparts.

Which isn’t exactly the message they want to be sending. At least, it shouldn’t be.

This Has A “Mixed Signals” Factor of Seven Out of Ten

[mckracken]

"creative teams on the core DCU titles"

Oh hell, I already see it coming. Variant origins, costumes, villains, timelines and cameos. Oh and not to forget: hip new jobs for everyone. Welcome to streamlined DC. Nice spitting on Crisis' grave, everyone!

[ratzo]

I wasn't gonna get involved in this conversation, because I'm not gonna buy these books regardless... I just have a question that I don't think anyone's touched upon. The counter-argument I keep reading for "Why can't they put Morrison and Lee on the regular titles?" is "The regular titles are too steeped in modern continuity."

There are three solo Superman books, four solo Batman books, and at least two books that feature the two of them together. Who says they ALL have to be in continuity with each other?

[tricksterpup]

I wasn't gonna get involved in this conversation, because I'm not gonna buy these books regardless... I just have a question that I don't think anyone's touched upon. The counter-argument I keep reading for "Why can't they put Morrison and Lee on the regular titles?" is "The regular titles are too steeped in modern continuity."

There are three solo Superman books, four solo Batman books, and at least two books that feature the two of them together. Who says they ALL have to be in continuity with each other?
From what I have read and heard is that Morrison did not care for the concept of Clark being married to Lois. That is why he wants to do a book out of Continuity. So he can do the stories before they were married and deal with the Dynamic of a single Clark trying to vie for the affections of Lois.

[ratzo]

Well, I understand that much, but my point is that why do all four Superman titles have to have the same continuity? Why is it necessary to create another title when Dan Didio can just say okay, from now on Action Comics is an out-of-continuity title and Morrison can write whatever kind of Superman story he wants on it? See what I mean?

[Jake V]

Well, I understand that much, but my point is that why do all four Superman titles have to have the same continuity? Why is it necessary to create another title when Dan Didio can just say okay, from now on Action Comics is an out-of-continuity title and Morrison can write whatever kind of Superman story he wants on it? See what I mean?
Probably because people would be way more resistant to that idea than they are to the whole all-star idea. DC seems to care a lot about tradition, and traditionally, Action is always in continuity, the same with the other books.

[tricksterpup]

Hmmm.. I wonder if this will happen.
From Lying in the Gutters.
Rich Johnston pulled out the result. "The winner" he announced to the dead air "is Frank Miller." He folded the piece of paper into four, pressed a pin through it and stuck it into a voodoo doll of Paul Levitz. The deed was done. Frank Miller would be the writer of "All Star Batman & Robin," with Jim Lee on art. Expect an announcement from DC later in the year. Or whenever the Wizard solicitation gets leaked.

[mckracken]

Ugh. Lee's sterile and inexpressive pencils are among the least i wanna see when Miller would be writing.

[Bat-Mite]

Hey, now that does sound a helluva lot better than Loebs and Lee.

[mckracken]

I dont even know why they bother with the Marvel ripoff. (and piss off potential DC traditionalists)

Recent past showed that its the right talent that sells not story or concept.

Batman needed only Lee to blast past all the X waste and Ultimates.
Superman does the Lee again, only slightly dragged down by Azzarello's painless wisdom teeth puller.

[Bat-Mite]

I dont even know why they bother with the Marvel ripoff. (and piss off potential DC traditionalists)


AAARGGHH! If the DC traditionalists get pissed about a series that doesn't affect them at all and nobody forces them to read, then they deserve that DC uses all their money to hire ninjas to enter their houses and punch them in the testicles while they sleep.

Recent past showed that its the right talent that sells not story or concept.

It's not the talent alone. It's not even the quality.

Lee plus Batman sells.

Lee plus Sleeper didn't.

*Shrug* I don't even try to understand it anymore, it's sad anyway you want to look at it.

Still, if this gives me Morrison's Superman and Miller's Batman, then I don't care if it's in continuity or how many traditionalists want to get pissed off because they believe every move DC makes is secretly intended to hurt them and their family... with ninjas.

[mckracken]

You know what the traditionalists worst fear is Bat-Mite? That their currently 65 year old universe gets usurped and swallowed whole in a matter of a decade or sooner by the ultimate.

(That Lee wont probably sell lots of copies for book XY nobody heard of and cares about should be a given, yes.)

[Bat-Mite]

You know what the traditionalists worst fear is Bat-Mite? That their currently 65 year old universe gets usurped and swallowed whole in a matter of a decade or sooner by the ultimate.

If the traditional universe sells more, then they have nothing to fear.

If the Ultimates one sells more, then that is what the people want, and the comic company should go with that, and the traditionalists should learn to accept it - instead of going around complaining about how DC betrayed them and possibly wants to kill their children.

(That Lee wont probably sell lots of copies for book XY nobody heard of and cares about should be a given, yes.)

If the world's most popular penciller can't make one of the most critically acclaimed books sell, it should tell you how royally screwed up this whole stupid comicdom really is. It also helps my theory that everybody should die except me.

[mckracken]

This All-Stars thing will sell very, very high numbers.
Pairing Miller and Lee does that.
Lets not forget the magic #1 thingie...well you know how it goes.

Whats the general reaction? "Oh look people must be feed up with the old stuff".

After Lee (and high profile writer) leave ship after a year, the pot is already cooking. All-Stars benefits from the brand tag, that the initial run established and goes into remix overdrive. (if theyre following the Marvel Ultimate policy of selling old stories as fresh)

Result? Looking at Marvel, I can only shudder. There are 2 versions of every important character. Whoever dreamed up that crap concept? Its basically a swollen, ulcerous "What if" out of control, ready to burst any second and burying everything behind it.

[Bat-Mite]

This All-Stars thing will sell very, very high numbers.
Pairing Miller and Lee does that.
Lets not forget the magic #1 thingie...well you know how it goes.

Whats the general reaction? "Oh look people must be feed up with the old stuff".


But they already know Loebs and Lee in Continuity Batman also sells. I am not exactly sure how you suppose DC only learns something THIS time.

Not that it matters much because...

After Lee (and high profile writer) leave ship after a year, the pot is already cooking. All-Stars benefits from the brand tag, that the initial run established and goes into remix overdrive. (if theyre following the Marvel Ultimate policy of selling old stories as fresh)


A) As far as we have heard, there is no follow up to screw up. Both All Star books are 12 issue maxiseries, so the chances of they replacing your ole continuinity is very low.

B) From what we have heard, they are not remixing old stories. From everything Morrison said int he interview, these are all new stories with Superman, so I really don't see what you are complaining about. I assume the BatMan book will follow the same idea, but who knows until the writer is chosen.

[mckracken]

But they already know Loebs and Lee in Continuity Batman also sells. I am not exactly sure how you suppose DC only learns something THIS time.


Oh thats easy: They cant have Lee and Loeb on every book. But they can put the All-Stars logo wherever they want. Its only a small step from maxiseries to "earth-2". Or vice versa.

[Bat-Mite]

I personally don't think sub-logos matter all that much, but if people start buying the book simply because it is part of the All Star line, then that means they really really like the idea of having some sort of new continuity, and not because they just have Lee and other big names on the books, which pretty much would prove that the "Oh look people must be feed up with the old stuff" statement is actually correct, and not wrong like you previously said.

[mckracken]

"Oh look people must be feed up with the old stuff" statement is actually correct, and not wrong like you previously said.

Expect that its not. See Batman 608-619.
Ultimate sells because its Ultimate. Everyone's afraid to miss the magical #1 Choo-Choo.

[Bat-Mite]

The whole point is...

If people keep buying All Star books sans Lee.

[dancj]

This All-Stars thing will sell very, very high numbers.
Pairing Miller and Lee does that.
Rich Johnston asked people to vote who would be paired with Lee in last weeks LITG so I think this rumour is a made up one.

[dancj]

A) As far as we have heard, there is no follow up to screw up. Both All Star books are 12 issue maxiseries, so the chances of they replacing your ole continuinity is very low.
Is that right? I know Morrison + Quitely's run is 12 issues, but I assumed other teams would take over after that

[Bat-Mite]

Not from what I have read, but it's all rumours anyway.

[mckracken]

I thought shed be one of the holy trinity, thus an all-star.

Would have been a clever move to push Diana to the front (she could use it) especially if theyd have connected the project with high profile names like Miller (who must have had his fill of Batman by now, given the fact that the guy likes his variety)

Oh well, one of these days im gonna tell DC how the show goes.

[Expletive Deleted]

Isn't there a rumor that it'll be Geoff Johns and Adam Hughes?

[mckracken]

If there is, its not widespread?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Wonder Woman has always been the red-headed step-sister of DC's Big Guns. Although she's supposed to be number 3 behind Supes & Bats, the character has always been *well* below The Flash & Green Lantern in terms of actual sales.

I've heard rumors that Geoff Johns & Adam Hughes were doing the All Stars Wonder Woman series, but I think DC is gonna stick with Supes & Bats for the time being considering these are the real draws--not Wonder Woman.

[Bat-Mite]

Too bad, for Adam Hughes art I might even consider the boring task of reading a Geoff Johns script.

[tricksterpup]

Rich Johnston pulled out the result. "The winner" he announced to the dead air "is Frank Miller." He folded the piece of paper into four, pressed a pin through it and stuck it into a voodoo doll of Paul Levitz. The deed was done. Frank Miller would be the writer of "All Star Batman & Robin," with Jim Lee on art. Expect an announcement from DC later in the year. Or whenever the Wizard solicitation gets leaked.

This has now been confirmed as being true by Newsarama.

DC’s All-Star teams are complete.

And they live up to the name.

Confirming rumors that started on writer Geoff Johns' messageboard, The New York Times reported that Frank Miller will write the previously announced All-Star Batman and Robin, which will join All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely.

The series will mark Miller’s first return to Batman since The Dark Knight Strikes Again in 2001, and his first take on a more mainstream Batman since 1987’s “Batman: Year One,” which originally ran in DC's regular Batman series. The creator pairing also marks the first time Lee will work with Miller.

As Newsarama previously reported, the idea behind the All-Star line isn’t to spin the characters into a new timeline, a new universe, or a new continuity, rather, the creators are telling stories set in a contemporary period that both builds on the histories of the respective characters, while remaining fresh and as timeless as possible. These are books that DC hopes, will pull people in who maybe haven’t read a Batman or Superman story in a while – if ever. These versions and stories, while not “dumbed down” at all, will bring to the page what’s pure about the character – the iconic characteristics.

In the case of All-Star Batman, Robin is Dick Grayson, rather than the current, in-continuity Tim Drake. And Miller’s story will focus on the relationship between Grayson and his mentor.
For the rest of the Article check out the link below.
http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AS_Batman.htm

[mckracken]

"As Newsarama previously reported, the idea behind the All-Star line isn’t to spin the characters into a new timeline, a new universe, or a new continuity, rather, the creators are telling stories set in a contemporary period that both builds on the histories of the respective characters, while remaining fresh and as timeless as possible."

That is good to hear. I can lay my ultimate fears to rest, then.

But does the "histories of the respective characters" mean that these stories will retroactively be placed into continuity? Like Identity Crisis did this year? Basically this would make ID a JLA All-Stars?

[GUTB]

We've been over this.

All-Stars is an Elseworlds that erases all previous continunity and will depict the iconic characters in a Silver Age mainstream light. What makes this Elseworlds series special is that unlike other Elsewords, All-Stars will be a staffed with big-name creator talent.

The difference between All-Stars and the Ultimate line is that the later modernizes the characters while the former devolves them back in time to when they were the most popular and mainstream.

[GUTB]

Hughes' WW is pretty good. But good enough to be considered All-Stars? Not besides the likes of Benes. And seriously, why isn't Al Rio working on something with one of the big two? His WW is superior. Hell, a lot of his stuff is superior.

So I went an joined his yahoo group and found this response from him when he answered a similiar question back in November:


I've been sending out promo art packs for off and on for two years now to
all the "big guys".
I just counted them up and in just the last two weeks I've sent FIFTEEN
promo packs and *personal* letters to editors and assistant editors at DC
and Marvel. I haven't heard even a peep back from them.

Doesn't appear to have a language barrier to me. And on top of that it's known that he's extremely prolific. So why the f doesn't he have a job? Is it that he's asking for too much?

[Arvandor]

You want to know why Wonder Woman is till considered a B-List superhero?


Because DC KEEP TREATING HER LIKE ONE!!!!!

[mckracken]

Tell you what Arvandor, maybe DC should consider reading a few links from your two favorite things in the world site, to get a few pointers as how to do WW in the future.

Ill pick those two:

* The Girls of Avatar. A publisher that knows the importance of hot, lesbian action.

* Tarot. The Witch of the Black Rose, and her love of ritualistic sex.

[Arvandor]

You're funny. No, wait. You're not.

[mckracken]

What? I thought you like those.

[glennsim]

[QUOTE=GUTB]We've been over this.

All-Stars is an Elseworlds that erases all previous continunity and will depict the iconic characters in a Silver Age mainstream light. What makes this Elseworlds series special is that unlike other Elsewords, All-Stars will be a staffed with big-name creator talent.
[QUOTE]

While I agree with your accessment/prediction, I do think that DC is screwing things up by referring to this as not being a new continuity. I think that when you say "not a new continuity", most think this means "part of the existing continuity", when in fact I think what they mean is "not a part of any continuity".

In other words, other than within each book, there's no connection to anything. The Batman in All-Star Batman and Robin isn't a member of the Justice League, and there might not even be any other super-heroes. At least, that's what I think they are saying.

[tricksterpup]

In other words, other than within each book, there's no connection to anything. The Batman in All-Star Batman and Robin isn't a member of the Justice League, and there might not even be any other super-heroes. At least, that's what I think they are saying.
Miller statement here.
As Miller said, “This is Dick Grayson's initiation and he's dealing with a very stern teacher. Batman is a hard teacher - unforgiving. Brutal. At the same time, Grayson is watching Batman come into his full power. Me and Jim Lee get to play with all of DC's toys. It'll be a romp. It'll be a lot of fun. I plan on raiding DC's treasury of characters. There won't be a Black Canary or a Wonder Woman unused.”

[GUTB]

Hopefully, Miller will understand his subordinate place with Lee and fullfill his role of provided Lee with a bunch of event scenes to draw.

[cactusmaac]

Hopefully, Miller will understand his subordinate place with Lee and fullfill his role of provided Lee with a bunch of event scenes to draw.

I think you're overdoing the medication.

[tricksterpup]

I think you're overdoing the medication.
Or not taking enough..

[GUTB]

So how many books have Miller's name sold?

Right.

Moving on.

[tricksterpup]

So how many books have Miller's name sold?

Right.

Moving on.
His name is one of the top sellers in the comic book industry alone. I predict that the Batman and Robin All stars, even with someone else will be over 150,000 in first print alone with second and third printings added to that. He is also one of the more inovative writers/artist to happen since the 60's.

[kossori]

Wonder Woman has always been the red-headed step-sister of DC's Big Guns. Although she's supposed to be number 3 behind Supes & Bats, the character has always been *well* below The Flash & Green Lantern in terms of actual sales.

I've heard rumors that Geoff Johns & Adam Hughes were doing the All Stars Wonder Woman series, but I think DC is gonna stick with Supes & Bats for the time being considering these are the real draws--not Wonder Woman.

Or perhaps they ran out of All-Star creators....

[Bat-Mite]

So how many books have Miller's name sold?

You mean besides DK2, which was the number one book of it's month despite costing 8 bucks? (Or at least was the number one money making book of that month, if not the number one sold.)

Please refrain from communicating with us through your rectum.

[Reptisaurus!]

You mean besides DK2, which was the number one book of it's month despite costing 8 bucks? (Or at least was the number one money making book of that month, if not the number one sold.)

Please refrain from communicating with us through your rectum.

Not to mention a million copies of the DKR trade in the US alone.

The first issue of "Strikes Again" pre-ordered over 200,000 copies.

The highest selling Jim Lee Batman issue, # 219, sold 233,000 copies according to ICTV.

Of course, as 'Mite said before, "Strikes Again" was an eight dollar book.

So. Who made more *Actual* money for DC, to the tune of over a million bucks?

Right.

Moving on.

That said, I dunno who's actually the bigger draw here.

Jim Lee sells to comic fanboys, but Miller probably has a larger "real world" audience, with "Dark Knight Returns" being available in most any library or bookshop. (And having sold well over a million copies in trade form alone.)

And there's the Sin City movie, which will certainly boost Frank's profile. Alan Moore was all over everywhere when the League of Extrordinary Gentlemen movie was out, even though he had nothing to do with the actual flick. Which, consequently, was bowel-explodingly horrible.

But some fans (who suck) are still mad about DKSA (Which was great. Utterly ****ing bizzare, but great.)

Heck, *if* *this* *is* *any* *good* and not Spawn/Batman, this could easily outsell...

Heck, any comic since X-men # 1.

[Bat-Mite]

Maybe I am just weird, but I liked DK2 like a wayward bastard son I never had, and sorta liked Spawn/Batman too like the mutant freak baby I never wanted to have but wasn't so bad after all.

[Reptisaurus!]

Maybe I am just weird, but I liked DK2 like a wayward bastard son I never had,


I absolutely loved it. If I was a cartoon character I'd have little hearts coming out of my head right now.

Except for the ending, which just made me feel dirty all over.


and sorta liked Spawn/Batman too like the mutant freak baby I never wanted to have but wasn't so bad after all.

Heh.

You're on your own there, but I'm glad someone liked it.

[Bat-Mite]

I absolutely loved it. If I was a cartoon character I'd have little hearts coming out of my head right now.

I KNOW! I can't believe people didn't like it. Sure, the art was ugly... but it was ugly like one of those weird Chinese puppies. It was ugly, but cuddly and lovable all the same.

And the ending... I mean... this is Batman, if anyone deserves a special pardon from the Pope saying that having sixteen year old girls running around in cat suits is A-OK for him, that is Batman. Really, he deserves to be a dirty old man in peace.

You're on your own there, but I'm glad someone liked it.

I know! But, unlike DK2, it's not one of those ultra-good books that, if you don't like them, I call you a dirty Philistine and a witch. It's actually pretty bad, but still enjoyable in some level that is probably sub-human. Like the LXG movie, which is horrible but I like it, despite knowing it is awful.

[discostu]

WRONG. Ferraris are much better than Toyotas, and guess which one sells.

Price is very important.

Also, marketing, publicity, PR, familiarity and hype can and will move a product to sell better than other products with less advertising budget even if those have better quality, unless the product in question is so bad it is impossible to sell. Mediocre is enough most of the time to make it big.

Do not try to simplify market forces like that, mind you.
The price is the same, if a ferrari was priced the same as a toyota, everyone would have a ferrari. And as I already stated, AOLTIMEWARNER can give DC way more capital to work with than MARVEL can manage. So DC has more advertising money and can keep titles with lower sales on the market without cancelling them. If anyone has familiarity, it's Dc with batman and superman.

[discostu]

Funny, I had the very same thought while I was listening to the new Britney Spears CD in my Toyota (TM Bat-Mite) on the way to McDonalds. But all that thinking started to hurt my brain, so I went to see Meet the Fockers to relax.

Sales do not equal quality, and vice versa. Marketing, brand loyalty, demographics, business models, etc. all play a part in determining what comic books sell. Not to mention some nasty distribution practices on the part of Marvel.
Hmmm, so you don't like Britney Spears. I guess this makes you the authority of what constitutes "good". There is a place for Pop music in this world(In case you didn't notice, all songs played on the radio are pop music), just as there is a place for comedic movies you may not like(I guess your sense of humor is the only acceptable one). And I guess toyotas aren't reliable cars, either, and I also guess that McDonalds food, which I hate, doesn't taste good.
The fact is, DC has enough money coming in from aoltimewarner to bury MARVEL, at least in theory. They have more advertising revenue and they can keep printing low selling titles. and as far as brand recognition goes, you guys have batman and superman, the two superheroes that everyone in the world knows. Quality will sell every time, and real quality will garner word of mouth. And could you please list the nasty distribution practices that AOL-TIME-WARNER can't seem to handle?

[Reptisaurus!]

Let me see if I understand your logic.

Such as it is.

The Michael Turner issue of "Superman/Batman" sold more isue by issue than, say, Supreme Power or Runaways.

Therefore, the Michael Turner issues of "Superman/Batman" are of greater quality than Supreme Power or Runaways?

... Interesting.

Cause see, I didn't think so at *all*.

In fact, I think Runaways is as good or better than any mainstream DC superhero book that I've read recently..

[discostu]

Let me see if I understand your logic.

Such as it is.

The Michael Turner issue of "Superman/Batman" sold more isue by issue than, say, Supreme Power or Runaways.

Therefore, the Michael Turner issues of "Superman/Batman" are of greater quality than Supreme Power or Runaways?

... Interesting.

Cause see, I didn't think so at *all*.

In fact, I think Runaways is as good or better than any mainstream DC superhero book that I've read recently..
Two things. One, I personally don't like Turners art, but alot of people do, and people will buy issues based on cover art alone. Obviously more people thought that turners art was the best on the stands that given week.
Two, Supreme Power is an adults only title, which limits its sales potential. Turner had the ad backing, DC made sure that he did the art on pretty much all of its covers, and it's number one book. Supreme Power has sold on word of mouth, a testament to its quality.

[discostu]

what I want to know is: why is it that DC, with it's superior backing and product, can't compete with MARVEL? They even had a head start!

[dancj]

You mean besides DK2, which was the number one book of it's month despite costing 8 bucks? (Or at least was the number one money making book of that month, if not the number one sold.)

Please refrain from communicating with us through your rectum.
Funny - GUTB has 500 odd posts to his (her? - nah) name so he's obviously been around a bit, but I've only noticed him in the past week or so when he's started saying all sorts of silly things

[mckracken]

Was it 8 Dollar? Hmm though every issue surely was double sized, if i remember correctly.

Last issue might even been a 64 pager, I know I had trouble getting it in the bag.

[GUTB]

Let's refresh your failing memory, shall we?

Red Son sold something in order of 32-34k as issues. Of course I don't know how much the trades sold. So much for the internet.

And Dark Knight Strikes Again was selling around 150-180k. Good, but this was more due to the fact that it was a massively hyped iconic release. Are you people actually trying to tell me such an important book wasn't going to sell huge regardless of Millar? I mean, c'mon, there's a limit to strange opinions.

However, the difference Lee makes is abundantley clear:

08/ 2003: Superman #196 -- 33,648
09/ 2003: Superman #197 -- 33,430
10/ 2003: Superman #198 -- 33,680
11/ 2003: Superman #199 -- 33,429
12/ 2003: Superman #200 -- 47,346
01/ 2004: Superman #201 -- 35,986
02/ 2004: Superman #202 -- 50,449
03/ 2004: Superman #203 -- 83,096 (Lee art advertised on cover)
04/ 2004: Superman #204 -- 231,411 (First issue of Lee's run)

Lee took a crap 33k book and added 200,000 readers to it. He added 30-50k, depending on how you look at it, just for the promise of a bit of his art inside the issue. Millar barely raises to the level of a shoe-shiner to Lee.

[cactusmaac]

Well, gee if it was so massively hyped that it sold 150k at $8 a pop, how come DC haven't been able to repeat the trick?

[tricksterpup]

Let's refresh your failing memory, shall we?

Lee took a crap 33k book and added 200,000 readers to it. He added 30-50k, depending on how you look at it, just for the promise of a bit of his art inside the issue. Millar barely raises to the level of a shoe-shiner to Lee.
Are you getting Frank Miller who is going to be the writer of the Batman and Robin Series confused with Mark Millar of Ultimates fame?

[mckracken]

Yea, I asked myself earlier what kind of connection the Red Sun mini had with MILLER. ;)

[Bat-Mite]

The price is the same, if a ferrari was priced the same as a toyota, everyone would have a ferrari.

Yes, I was just pointing out that there are other things that influence the number of sales besides quality. Price is just one of many, I mentioned others too.

And as I already stated, AOLTIMEWARNER can give DC way more capital to work with than MARVEL can manage. So DC has more advertising money and can keep titles with lower sales on the market without cancelling them.

Bullshit.

Do you think AOL-TW goes around throwing diamonds at DC for the heck of it? Do you think the shareholders go "Quickly! DC needs ten million dollars or they will cancel KAMANDI! OH NOES!" Do you people honestly believe that crap?

DC is expected to make money on it's own, just like any other company owned by AOL-TW. I don't know how you people think business actually work, but let me give you a clue:

You don't buy a company and start throwing money into it to keep it alive. You buy a company and expect it to give money to you.

If anyone has familiarity, it's Dc with batman and superman.

Which is why Batman and Superman sell better than most stuff. But, in the mini world of comics, Marvel has more brand loyalty inherited from a golden age gone by. Comics are not getting new readers much these days, so the audience is not going to change, and the audience is still that one that remembers that sorta-golden-age and is loyal to Marvel.

[tricksterpup]

Top 10 books for Nov 2004. It looks pretty much that DC did hold their own this month. Here we see DC with one big event book Id crisis at number 3 while Marvel's big event book, Disassembled had 2 coming out.

1 SUPERMAN BATMAN #13 DC 157,949

2 ASTONISHING X-MEN #6 MAR 134,840

3 IDENTITY CRISIS #6 (Of 7) DC 132,384

4 SUPERMAN BATMAN #14 DC 121,831

5 SUPERMAN #211 DC 106,469

6 AVENGERS #503 (#88) MAR 105,761

7 AVENGERS FINALE #1 MAR 101,431

8 ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #13* MAR 96,820

9 ULTIMATE X-MEN #53 MAR 92,133

10 UNCANNY X-MEN #452 MAR 92,051

I personally feel that when the Batman book comes out, we will see numbers greater than the Superman/batman title coming out.

[NickVinson]

well it might be that All-Star Superman, Batman & Robin are the test titles for the line. Kinda like how Ultimate Spiderman and Xmen were the test titles. Now we have UFF, the Ultimates(2), an Iron Man mini and various other Ultimate Minis. So if Bats and Supes prove to be successful sales wise(and with this creative line it ought to be) then more than likely DC will expand on the line.

Who's up for an All-Star Ambush Bug???

[sixstringguild]

I'll bet you $10 bucks they're waiting on this to coincide more w/ the Wonder Woman movie that's in development.

[muimi]

I'll bet you $10 bucks they're waiting on this to coincide more w/ the Wonder Woman movie that's in development.

Yuck. The thought of the Wonder Woman movie makes me cringe because I have no faith in a movie studio to portray Wonder Woman in her greatness. I fully expect Hollywood to make a Charlie's Angels-esque movie and boil Diana down to kick-ass sex appeal when she's so much more than that. :(

And yes, where is All Stars Wonder Woman? Test series aside with Batman and Superman, Wonder Woman deserves some recognition as well. I suppose it makes sense from a marketing standpoint but Wonder Woman is iconic as well and deserves some recognition! :(

[stealthwise]

I wouldn't be surprised if they made an announcement about this soon. My guess would be something along the lines of, if you're actually thinking about all-stars, John Byrne and George Perez, though I wouldn't want to actually see Byrne write it.

[protege]

Well, let me ask You- if johns did do ASWW, he's probably have to drop a book. Which one would you want him to give up?

[Arvandor]

I'm not a fan of Johns. I hope he stays away, myself.

[Ontir]

I would LOVE to see a Chris Claremont/Howard Chaykin All Star Wonder Woman!

One of those great intricate storylines that Claremont does which weaves back and forth between 2004, and 1941, with killer Chaykin art!

[mckracken]

Id take everyone who would size the chance nobody could in the past 60 years, odd as it seems, and be determined to write Diana's personal "Dark Knight Returns", rocketing her status beyond being just "popular" today only because of the fact that she was the first female Superhero.

[Tom]

Johns and Hughes don't strike me as "All-Stars" in the same vein as Frank Miller or Grant Morrison or Jim Lee. You know who DC should start wooing? Neil Gaiman. I bet he could write a fascinating WW.

[GUTB]

Gaiman I sort of associate with internet fanboy make-believe "star" or comic geek exlussive in-joke "star".

Now lets be honest -- name me a prime-time hit by Gaiman.

[Expletive Deleted]

Now lets be honest -- name me a prime-time hit by Gaiman.MARVEL 1602. Here're the sales figures:

Aug Marvel 1602 #1 (of 8) - 150,569
Sep Marvel 1602 #2 (of 8) - 132,737
Oct Marvel 1602 #3 (of 8) - 129,456
Nov Marvel 1602 #4 (of 8) - 122,683
Dec Marvel 1602 #5 (of 8) - 115,517
Jan Marvel 1602 #6 (of 8) - 109,132
Feb Marvel 1602 #7 (of 8) - 104,067
Mar n/a
Apr Marvel 1602 #8 (of 8) - 103,213

That's a success, I'd say.

His last novel, AMERICAN GODS, was a New York Times Bestseller.

Not to mention backlist staples for DC like SANDMAN and DEATH which've been in print continuously for the last ten years and still do good business.

[chicainery]

MARVEL 1602. Here're the sales figures:

Aug Marvel 1602 #1 (of 8) - 150,569
Sep Marvel 1602 #2 (of 8) - 132,737
Oct Marvel 1602 #3 (of 8) - 129,456
Nov Marvel 1602 #4 (of 8) - 122,683
Dec Marvel 1602 #5 (of 8) - 115,517
Jan Marvel 1602 #6 (of 8) - 109,132
Feb Marvel 1602 #7 (of 8) - 104,067
Mar n/a
Apr Marvel 1602 #8 (of 8) - 103,213

That's a success, I'd say.

His last novel, AMERICAN GODS, was a New York Times Bestseller.

Not to mention backlist staples for DC like SANDMAN and DEATH which've been in print continuously for the last ten years and still do good business.


Yeah, but could you list a prime-time hit?




joking

[stealthwise]

I don't like Gaiman on superheroes. I like him on bizarre stuff like Sandman and the occasional Swamp Thing story, or Black Orchid, but he doesn't really seem all too interested in telling a "superhero" story with the superheroes overall.

1602 was very ponderous at first, then he had to rush to get to its finish really quickly. It felt like a prelude to something larger. I'm a huge Gaiman fan, but the mini-series didn't really work for me at all.

Not that I wouldn't buy his Wonder Woman if he were to do it. :D

[Bat-Mite]

Gaiman I sort of associate with internet fanboy make-believe "star" or comic geek exlussive in-joke "star".

Now lets be honest -- name me a prime-time hit by Gaiman.

GUTB, do people dare you to come to message boards and just blabber the most ignorant ill informed opinions?

Gaiman is bestseller novelist, and had a hardcover (Endless Nights) among the top 25 books sold in book stores.

Really, I am convinced you are joking because there is no way a person can be so wrong and not even notice it.

[Apathy Boy]

Hmmm, so you don't like Britney Spears. I guess this makes you the authority of what constitutes "good". There is a place for Pop music in this world(In case you didn't notice, all songs played on the radio are pop music), just as there is a place for comedic movies you may not like(I guess your sense of humor is the only acceptable one). And I guess toyotas aren't reliable cars, either, and I also guess that McDonalds food, which I hate, doesn't taste good.Excellent, you're really starting to make some progress! You started off with the rather facile comment that "if something is good, people buy it," but now you realize you have to qualify that statement.

So, yes, sometimes people make purchases based on availability or reliability or to satisfy certain needs or out of habit. In other words, people don't always buy a product based on its quality. Thanks for supporting my point.

And of course I'm the authority of what constitutes "good." Just like you are. Just like everyone else is. "Good" is a completely subjective concept, and trying to find a way to quantify "goodness" is futile. Which is why I find your attempts to link sales to quality kind of lame.

"Sales" do not equal "quality." All they indicate is what sold more.

(Sales can also indicate popularity, but not always - I mean, millions of people bought Michael Bolton records, but I've yet to meet anyone who actually admits they like his music.)

[Apathy Boy]

The fact is, DC has enough money coming in from aoltimewarner to bury MARVEL, at least in theory. They have more advertising revenue and they can keep printing low selling titles. and as far as brand recognition goes, you guys have batman and superman, the two superheroes that everyone in the world knows. Quality will sell every time, and real quality will garner word of mouth.
(emphasis added)Just for the record, "us guys" don't have anything. Because we're not DC.

This isn't West Side Story. Comic reading doesn't have to be "us" versus "them." Many comic fans enjoy books from, you know, a variety of companies. Just because I read a lot of DC doesn't mean I consider Marvel my enemy.

And could you please list the nasty distribution practices that AOL-TIME-WARNER can't seem to handle?Primarily, Marvel's decision to stop printing overruns on their comics. Overruns allow retailers to see how comics are selling on the shelves before they order more. But now, comic stores have to order extra Marvel books because they won't be able to reorder them later. That inflates Marvel's numbers and puts comic shops into a position where they have to take on more stock than they may need. That's not a friendly practice on Marvel's part, considering most comic shops have low profit margins as it is. To their credit, DC has yet to indulge in this destructive practice (and to their credit, Marvel is starting to backtrack on this policy, though only for a couple of their books).

The second hinky distribution practice involves incentive variants, things like giving away 1 holofoil cover comic "A" for every 100 copies of comic "B" that a retailer order. That just feeds the speculator mentality that almost killed the industry in the '90s, whereby collectors would rather spend $100 on a gimmick cover rather than buy (and read) 30 individual comics.

I've got problems with DC's variant policy as well, but at least those are shipped 50/50 or as reprints, so they aren't as likely to incite outrageous behaviour from the speculators.





And, uh, Stu? Admit it. You're actually Joe Quesada, right?

[discostu]

Bullshit.

Do you think AOL-TW goes around throwing diamonds at DC for the heck of it? Do you think the shareholders go "Quickly! DC needs ten million dollars or they will cancel KAMANDI! OH NOES!" Do you people honestly believe that crap?

DC is expected to make money on it's own, just like any other company owned by AOL-TW. I don't know how you people think business actually work, but let me give you a clue:

You don't buy a company and start throwing money into it to keep it alive. You buy a company and expect it to give money to you.
actually, Didio said that DC can keep lower selling titles on the shelves longer because they have warner backing them. Q: What's your company's biggest strenght in 2005? A: Support. Meaning we have the strength and support of a large company behind us. If a book seems to falter when it first steps out, we don't have to overreact and pull the plug... If we know we have something that is special, we can put alot of resources behind it.

Dan Didio honestly believes that crap.

[cactusmaac]

Was he taking about AOL-TW or about DC Comics in particular?

[cactusmaac]

Let's refresh your failing memory, shall we?

Red Son sold something in order of 32-34k as issues. Of course I don't know how much the trades sold. So much for the internet.

And Dark Knight Strikes Again was selling around 150-180k. Good, but this was more due to the fact that it was a massively hyped iconic release. Are you people actually trying to tell me such an important book wasn't going to sell huge regardless of Millar? I mean, c'mon, there's a limit to strange opinions.

However, the difference Lee makes is abundantley clear:

08/ 2003: Superman #196 -- 33,648
09/ 2003: Superman #197 -- 33,430
10/ 2003: Superman #198 -- 33,680
11/ 2003: Superman #199 -- 33,429
12/ 2003: Superman #200 -- 47,346
01/ 2004: Superman #201 -- 35,986
02/ 2004: Superman #202 -- 50,449
03/ 2004: Superman #203 -- 83,096 (Lee art advertised on cover)
04/ 2004: Superman #204 -- 231,411 (First issue of Lee's run)

Lee took a crap 33k book and added 200,000 readers to it. He added 30-50k, depending on how you look at it, just for the promise of a bit of his art inside the issue. Millar barely raises to the level of a shoe-shiner to Lee.


Nice edit..

[comic_lover]

I liked this when it was called Elseworlds. Hahaa ! Ain't it the truth ! :D

[discostu]

Just for the record, "us guys" don't have anything. Because we're not DC.

This isn't West Side Story. Comic reading doesn't have to be "us" versus "them." Many comic fans enjoy books from, you know, a variety of companies. Just because I read a lot of DC doesn't mean I consider Marvel my enemy.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy DC books from time to time, in fact, RED SON is one of my favorite comicbooks of all time. My problem is with the entire mentality behind the company. Nothing ever changes! You have constant retcons and still, nothing ever changes! Marvel had been taking chances since the 60's and has been rewarded for it, DC has done its best to make sure that pretty much nothing has changed since the 30's! Also, there is nothing the common reader can relate to in the DC characters, the place is full of gods and psychopaths.
Primarily, Marvel's decision to stop printing overruns on their comics. Overruns allow retailers to see how comics are selling on the shelves before they order more. But now, comic stores have to order extra Marvel books because they won't be able to reorder them later. That inflates Marvel's numbers and puts comic shops into a position where they have to take on more stock than they may need. That's not a friendly practice on Marvel's part, considering most comic shops have low profit margins as it is. To their credit, DC has yet to indulge in this destructive practice (and to their credit, Marvel is starting to backtrack on this policy, though only for a couple of their books).

The second hinky distribution practice involves incentive variants, things like giving away 1 holofoil cover comic "A" for every 100 copies of comic "B" that a retailer order. That just feeds the speculator mentality that almost killed the industry in the '90s, whereby collectors would rather spend $100 on a gimmick cover rather than buy (and read) 30 individual comics.

I've got problems with DC's variant policy as well, but at least those are shipped 50/50 or as reprints, so they aren't as likely to incite outrageous behaviour from the speculators.
as far as the small print runs go, i guess you can either flood the market, or dam up the river... it's a double edged sword.

variants: I'm not in favor of 'em, but it's not like they're dropping die cut holo foil covers on us again, they usually just use the variants as a medium to push new artists. For me, comicbooks aren't about collecting, they're about reading, that's why I get the trades. and where is the love for marvels tpb program?
And, uh, Stu? Admit it. You're actually Joe Quesada, right?
You're going to have to give me a few years on that one. I might not be Joe, but I sure as hell am going to be Stan Lee Jr..... Stay tuned for updates.

[discostu]

Excellent, you're really starting to make some progress! You started off with the rather facile comment that "if something is good, people buy it," but now you realize you have to qualify that statement.

So, yes, sometimes people make purchases based on availability or reliability or to satisfy certain needs or out of habit. In other words, people don't always buy a product based on its quality. Thanks for supporting my point.

And of course I'm the authority of what constitutes "good." Just like you are. Just like everyone else is. "Good" is a completely subjective concept, and trying to find a way to quantify "goodness" is futile. Which is why I find you attempts to link sales to quality are kind of lame.

"Sales" do not equal "quality." All they indicate is what sold more.

(Sales can also indicate popularity, but not always - I mean, millions of people bought Michael Bolton records, but I've yet to meet anyone who actually admits they like his music.)
Where are all these people who are buying products that they don't like?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Okay, finally, GUTB, I've seen through your little joke. You can't possibly what you're pretending to be--the most stereotypical comic geek possible. I mean, I've heard the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons say less outrageous stuff than you.

Unless you actually mean the nonsense that you post regularly...in that case.... wow.

[mckracken]

Gaiman I sort of associate with internet fanboy make-believe "star" or comic geek exlussive in-joke "star".

Now lets be honest -- name me a prime-time hit by Gaiman.
hmm, could be a classic. :D

[Kevin Street]

Who's up for an All-Star Ambush Bug???

Whoo-hoo! You can never have too much Schwab. :cool: Or Wonder Woman, for that matter.

[dancj]

Was it 8 Dollar? Hmm though every issue surely was double sized, if i remember correctly.

Last issue might even been a 64 pager, I know I had trouble getting it in the bag.
Actually the issues were 80 pages each.

[dancj]

Okay I promised myself I wouldn't reply to any more of your emails, but here goes...

Let's refresh your failing memory, shall we?

Red Son sold something in order of 32-34k as issues. Of course I don't know how much the trades sold. So much for the internet..
Obviously you're a bit confused here. Red Son was by Mark Millar


And Dark Knight Strikes Again was selling around 150-180k. Good, but this was more due to the fact that it was a massively hyped iconic release. Are you people actually trying to tell me such an important book wasn't going to sell huge regardless of Millar? I mean, c'mon, there's a limit to strange opinions.
How many Batman prestige format minies have there been that sold like this? The thing that made this a big iconic release was that it was a Batman book by Frank (The Dark Knight Returns) Miller - and that it was a sequel to The Dark Knight Returns. Without Miller this wouldn't have been such an important book and would have sold a fraction of what it did.


Lee took a crap 33k book and added 200,000 readers to it. He added 30-50k, depending on how you look at it, just for the promise of a bit of his art inside the issue. Millar barely raises to the level of a shoe-shiner to Lee.
Jim Lee when hyped to oblivion and paired with an inexplicably big name writer and put on a big name character does have that effect for some reason. Frank Miller hyped to oblivion and put on a Batman comic would have exactly the same effect.

[Bat-Mite]

Dan Didio honestly believes that crap.

And that quote comes from?

[Bat-Mite]

My problem is with the entire mentality behind the company. Nothing ever changes! You have constant retcons and still, nothing ever changes! Marvel had been taking chances since the 60's and has been rewarded for it

Ah, so that's why Chris Claremont is writing X-Men again and making sure he erases every change ever made (mostly made by Morrison) and take it back to the 80s? For God's sake, he even made Kitty Pryde a virgin and a teenager again.

The DCU is not much better in that regard, mind you.

Also, there is nothing the common reader can relate to in the DC characters, the place is full of gods and psychopaths.

Some of us are gods and psychopaths.

as far as the small print runs go, i guess you can either flood the market, or dam up the river... it's a double edged sword.


Or... how about publishing the best comics you can and not indulge yourself in unethical practices?

but I sure as hell am going to be Stan Lee Jr.....

You are also going to take full credit for idea that weren't completely yours?

Where are all these people who are buying products that they don't like?

A long time ago, one guy sent a letter to Marvel asking them to please cancel Groo. You see, he bought every Marvel comic, he had to, but he didn't like Groo, so he asked them to cancel it so he wouldn't have to buy it. (Thanks, Kurt Busiek.)

People who buy every Marvel comic, despite not liking them are probably very rare these days, but people who keep buying X-Men just to complain about the latest change in continuity are a dime a dozen. Heck, even I was once buying a comic I didn't like, even if it was sorta accidental. I had a subscription to Generation X, and boy did it start to suck when Larry Hama took over. I got LArry Hama's Gen-X for nine months until the subscription ran out. I should have tried to cancel it sooner. I mean, If I had received monthly death threat letters from the mafia, I would have probably been happier.

[tricksterpup]

I mean, If I had received monthly death threat letters from the mafia, I would have probably been happier.
This still can be arranged. ;)

[Reptisaurus!]

According to USA today, the orders for the first issue of DKSA were, in fact, over 200,000. Not 150-170,000, like GUTB said.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/2001-12-05-batman.htm

[GUTB]

I was going by the Diamonds list of that year -- it may very well have racked up a grand total of 200k with re-orders in the end.

But the fact remains -- it was a MASSIVELY HYPED book of a MAJOR ICONIC CHARACTER. Is Geoff Johns responsible for massive success of Rebirth? C'mon lets get real.

[mckracken]

I dont think Miller needs hyping when hes finally writing Batman again.

After all, no one ever needed to hype Jesus of Nazareth to Christians. (exxagerated phrase - handle with care)

[Reptisaurus!]

I was going by the Diamonds list of that year -- it may very well have racked up a grand total of 200k with re-orders in the end.

But the fact remains -- it was a MASSIVELY HYPED book of a MAJOR ICONIC CHARACTER. Is Geoff Johns responsible for massive success of Rebirth? C'mon lets get real.

No. But Frank Miller was completely responsible for DKSA.

None of the other Batman Elseworld's sold 200,000 copies, or even close.

If anyone else had done a sequel to DKR, it wouldn't have sold half that.

Jim Lee sold 200,000 copies of a massively hyped Batman project. (And probably Jeph Loeb was responsible for some of those. Not a *lot* but there's quite a few Long Halloween fans. Frank Miller sold at least 150,000 copies of a massively hyped Batman project at a much higher price point.

Miller's name *sells* and is quite-a-bit better known outside of internet fanboy planet than Jim Lee to boot, with "Rolling Stone" appearances back in the eighties and now directing Sin City.

Google "Frank Miller" comics and "Jim Lee" comics and see how many hits you get.

[Bat-Mite]

But the fact remains -- it was a MASSIVELY HYPED book of a MAJOR ICONIC CHARACTER.

And that is different from Jim Lee's Batman or Superman.... how?

[discostu]

And that quote comes from?
It's in the new wizard, an interview with Joe Q and Dan Didio. On newsstands now! Buy WIZARD, kids!

[Bat-Mite]

Tell me the number and I might buy it.

[Apathy Boy]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy DC books from time to time, in fact, RED SON is one of my favorite comicbooks of all time. My problem is with the entire mentality behind the company. Nothing ever changes! You have constant retcons and still, nothing ever changes! Marvel had been taking chances since the 60's and has been rewarded for it, DC has done its best to make sure that pretty much nothing has changed since the 30's! Also, there is nothing the common reader can relate to in the DC characters, the place is full of gods and psychopaths.I wouldn't say DC is "full" of gods and psychopaths (actually, I'd go so far as to say there aren't any psychopaths in DC at all, unless you count the villains).

DC's major icons qualify as gods, but they only number a half-dozen. The second-tier of DC heroes is comprised almost entirely of mortals with low-level (or no) superpowers. It's kind of the reverse at Marvel, where the top-tier heroes (and one psychopath with claws) have low-level superpowers, but most of the second-tier have unbelievable power levels.

And I dislike the "relatability" argument myself. I have trouble "relating" to any superhero, as bench pressing a Buick and hitting the streets to fight crime in my underwear is kind of foreign to me. I just care if a character is well-written and the story is interesting.

and where is the love for marvels tpb program?Good point. I'm into the monthlies myself, so I forgot about trade publishing. Marvel is clearly an industry leader when it comes to its trade program for current titles.

Where are all these people who are buying products that they don't like?There's a few of them here (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/archive/index.php/t-30799.html).

I guess the obvious example would be Chuck Austen's UNCANNY X-MEN run. It seemed to be universally loathed by Internet fans and reviewers, but damned if it didn't keep selling anyway.

[Bat-Mite]

Good point. I'm into the monthlies myself, so I forgot about trade publishing. Marvel is clearly an industry leader when it comes to its trade program for current titles.

Marvel's TPB has a lot of problems, though. Just like their singles, they only get printed once. Marvel has not tried to build a library like DC has, which makes older TPBs hard to find if you didn't buy them the first time around.

[dancj]

Marvel's TPB has a lot of problems, though. Just like their singles, they only get printed once. Marvel has not tried to build a library like DC has, which makes older TPBs hard to find if you didn't buy them the first time around.

Tell me about it - I'm still looking for the Unstable Molecules tpb

[dancj]

A long time ago, one guy sent a letter to Marvel asking them to please cancel Groo. You see, he bought every Marvel comic, he had to, but he didn't like Groo, so he asked them to cancel it so he wouldn't have to buy it. (Thanks, Kurt Busiek.)

Ha!! That's fantastic!!

[Suzanne]

And I dislike the "relatability" argument myself. I have trouble "relating" to any superhero, as bench pressing a Buick and hitting the streets to fight crime in my underwear is kind of foreign to me. I just care if a character is well-written and the story is interesting.

So do I. I don't need to relate to the characters to enjoy them. Like you said, well-written characters and interesting stories are what matters most to me. On that aspect, I find the DC titles I read rewarding. Besides, Marvel doesn't have the market cornered on relatability. Really, who the hell does? I'm sure evey company has characters someone can relate to. It depends on the reader.

[Frank]

Ok enough Marvel vs DC debate, focus on the All Stars folks!

What a line-up, and I mean gigantic one with Miller, Lee, Morrison, Quitely. Continuity or no continuity I cannot believe someone would not buy these books if he likes those characters, it`s impossible, and would be stupid. (unless of course you don`t care for Quitely that I could understand, taste can`t be wrong). In retrospect it reminds me of the original conception of Marvel Knights/MAX that Marvel Editorials talk about a few years ago about doing stories outside of continuity so you could tell the best story possible without having to worry about anything. Azzarello/Corben`s Hulk series "Banner" was a great example of that and it hit all the marks because he could do anything he wanted with the character wich mean he had total freedom and it ended-up feeling like the quintessential Hulk tale, new, different but iconic. I remember back then Miller mentioning he loved Banner BTW. I don`t know why Marvel stopped doing that to tell you the truth.

But in a way those two comics ARE DC`S ultimate books because you have Morrison who prefered starting the Superman stories in pre-Crisis 40s, that`s not we`re seeing in the main books obviously. And Batman-Robin feels like a Ultimate Batman book all the way with modern costumes. Remember someone like Mark Millar when he did Ultimate X-Men, it was not so much retelling the X-Men origin but doing his best story he could without continuity restrictions.

[Reptisaurus!]

Ok enough Marvel vs DC debate, focus on the All Stars folks!


Fair enough.

I'm totally for 'em. I like writers having a heck-of-a-lotta latitude with continuity anyway. And I *vastly* prefer the Pre-Crisis Superman to Byrne and (*UGH* *ugh* *ugh* *ugh* *ugh* *ugh*) Football Hero Clark. :rolleyes:

Honestly, there's a part of me that would just as soon not see another Superman-Batman book, but Supes and Bats do seem to be the only thing fans will buy in mass quantities.

Here's hopin' they can somehow get Neil Gaiman for Wonder Woman.

[stealthwise]

I don't like Quitely's art much, but I'll give this book a good shot.

I'd love to see Gaiman on Wonder Woman, I just wish that there was validity to the rumour. Darwyn Cooke would rule too.

I'd love to see more titles in this vein eventually, especially the Alan Moore/Dave Gibbons on AS GL idea I posted in another thread... I would seriously shed tears of unadulterated joy.

[Sun Boy]

what I want to know is: why is it that DC, with it's superior backing and product, can't compete with MARVEL? They even had a head start!

First, my thoughts on the All Stars stuff:

I, for one, look forward to fantastic stories that don't have any strings attached to them. I am also hoping this supposed "Crisis II" will create a more fun and fantastical DCU. We can only wait and see I suppose. Personally I am not sure about putting the big names on the books, but I guess it gives it that push it needs to get started.

Honestly, I don't care if this month's Action Comics contradicts something Superman did in JLA or Adventures, as long as the story is fun and exciting I could care less about continuity for the most part.

Now in regards to the age old pissing match (whether it be Marvel V. DC or Ford V. Chevy, Harvard V. Yale, Steelers V. Browns):

I really hate to even get into this argument first day back on the boards, but ever think that just because Marvel outsells DC doesn't make it better. It could be argued that Marvel appeals to the lowest common denominator (i.e. dumbed down books or more generic to have a wider mass appeal, not necessarily a bad thing) as opposed to DC creating books that appeal to the more discerning reader.

Grant you I am not saying this as definitive fact, there are many Marvel books I enjoy, as well as DC and indi comics. But there are other factors that could be the reason X-Men outsells Superman every month and it doesn't necessarily point to better quality.

Frankly I do find X-Men to cater to the lowest common denominator, but that is my opinion. Shoot, obviously it works and the stories are fun, if not highly involved (to be fair, I haven't read X-Men in the last year or so, but that is because I grew bored with the writing). I enjoy that simplistic storytelling sometimes, but more often than not I enjoy more complex stories.

Quite frankly there are very few books from either of the big two companies that I truly enjoy on a regular basis. DC is trying to be too grim and gritty and Marvel is already too real.

Identity Crisis almost was a great story (but Jean being the killer kind of killed it for me, no pun intended, I was hoping for more of a real danger in a villain). New Frontier (totally not in continuity) was probably the best story I read. It was fun, fantastical with great story telling and a complex plot.

[handOFfate]

I know Miller/Lee on Batman & Robin and Morrison/Quietly on Superman, but I haven't heard of any other All-Star books being announced yet. If they're looking to add a third title, All-Star Flash and Green Lantern would be my recommendation. I know a lot of people think All-Star Wonder Woman is the next logical step, but Flash and GL's comics are trouncing hers in sales and this would sell more. Get a superstar writer and drawer on this and I think it could do very well. Does anybody agree? Disagree?

[Tenebrae]

I tend to think Wonder Woman's status as the third member of the Big Three icons at DC will override sales on this one. Unusual though that would be for the current comics industry. Though, as you say, I wouldn't have thought Green Lantern and Flash would be far behind, maybe even JLA.

[Kid Seven]

I would love to see an All Star Wonder Woman. I think my pick for the creative team would be Neil Gaiman and Bryan Hitch. With Gaiman's work on The Sandman, I'm thinking not just of The Endless but also the various gods and demigods, I fee like he would bring a mythic, ancient poetry to Wonder Woman. He also writes strong female characters better than most. Bryan Hitch is one of the only ones, in my mind, who could bring this scope and enormity to page.

DC, get on it!!!

[comicartfan]

Even though Geoff Johns and Ethan Van Sciver are kicking all kinds of butt with Green Lantern right now, I would love to see an All Star Green Lantern with Neal Adams drawing it.

[Windbreaker]

I agree that Bryan Hitch could make a big-scale All-Star WW book look good. I'm not reading her monthly, but Hitch would peak my interest if he was involved.

[IamtheRock3]

All star seem to be about getting back to basics really and big scale.

Think the new GL pretty much does it.


Be cool if they did an All star that took place before Hal though.

[hotrodimus]

i think they're still gonna see how allstar superman, batman & robin will do first. anyway if they make a 3rd title. id say go for the justice league of america already.. so we immediately have both flash and gl (along with aquaman and the others)

[stealthwise]

I would love to see an All Star Wonder Woman. I think my pick for the creative team would be Neil Gaiman and Bryan Hitch. With Gaiman's work on The Sandman, I'm thinking not just of The Endless but also the various gods and demigods, I fee like he would bring a mythic, ancient poetry to Wonder Woman. He also writes strong female characters better than most. Bryan Hitch is one of the only ones, in my mind, who could bring this scope and enormity to page.

DC, get on it!!!

While that would be, at the very least interesting, and at best, spectacular, I can see the publishing schedule now:

Issue 1: January 2006
Issue 2: June 2006
Issue 3: August 2008
Issue 4: Tentatively scheduled for May 2010
Issue 5: Cancelled

[LukeRed5]

If they do an All-Star Flash, I wonder if Mark Waid would have any interest in writing it.

[Kid Seven]

LOL. I love that publishing schedule. Maybe they can work on it ahead of time, so that it'll be monthly.

In, I dunno, 2015? :-)

[Forsaken_One]

i think they're still gonna see how allstar superman, batman & robin will do first. anyway if they make a 3rd title. id say go for the justice league of america already.. so we immediately have both flash and gl (along with aquaman and the others)
Isn't Alex Ross doing an All Star JLA? Or at least something like it?

[Kid Seven]

Alex Ross is doing that 'Justice Project': him writing (I think), someone else penciling and him painting over it. It's the Legion of Doom against the Justice League. Seems very All-Stars, but as far as I know it takes place in the normal DC universe.

[stealthwise]

If they do an All-Star Flash, I wonder if Mark Waid would have any interest in writing it.

I like Waid, but I think he's said everything he's needed to on the Flash.

My dream writer for this would be Alan Moore, but we all know that's not going to happen.

I'd love to have Hitch on pencils, but about six months lead time is absolutely necessary for this, given his track record.

[Kid Seven]

Hitch on Flash would be awesome!

[Captain Jim]

I could see George Perez doing the art on an All Star Wonder Woman.

[Kid Seven]

I think Perez would of course do an excellent job, but I'd personally like to see someone else's take for an All-Star run.

I'd really like to see some of those Slow Artists (i'm capitalising it 'causes it's basically a school of art at this point!) on some of the books. How awesome would Art Adams be on a Justice League book? Brian Bolland on Wonder Woman? (Does anyone know, has he ever done any interiors for her?) Michael Golden on Flash?

A man can dream...

[Forsaken_One]

Alex Ross is doing that 'Justice Project': him writing (I think), someone else penciling and him painting over it. It's the Legion of Doom against the Justice League. Seems very All-Stars, but as far as I know it takes place in the normal DC universe.
I doubt it's going to be in continuity, I seem to remember Alex Ross saying in an interview that he was going to use the classic lineup, including Barry Allen as the Flash. Kinda hard to do that in continuity, especially with DC saying Superman didn't join until after the Crisis IIRC.

Edit: Silly me, check the quote box.

[Kid Seven]

So now I'm confused. Is it in continuity or is it from the past? Or just ....kinda...out of continuity?

[Forsaken_One]

So now I'm confused. Is it in continuity or is it from the past? Or just ....kinda...out of continuity?
I have no idea. If you get someone to answer that ask them when the hell the Question and Lex Luthor miniseries running right now are set. Thery're bugging the hell out of me.

[cutler]

i heard about the new all star event that is hitting dc comics in a recent wizard. does anyone know when superman and batman all star is due to hit stores? also if anyone could give some reference on what kind of continuity these stories will follow, if any, would be helpful. the article in wizard was kinda vague on their interview with morrison.

[Paradox]

cutler wants to know "What in what world??":

ialso if anyone could give some reference on what kind of continuity these stories will follow, if any, would be helpful. the article in wizard was kinda vague on their interview with morrison.

Pretty much whatever continuity the writer feels like. "Stories in a 'classic' vein" is about the only description you're going to get. Think "pre-Crisis with whatever changes to that the writer feels like making". The stories are the point, here, not continuity.

[cutler]

do you know when these titles are coming to stores? also, if anyone would like to give their opinions of batman and superman all star books? i realize they are not out yet, but anything that people want to chat about is cool. does anyone feel they are dc's answer to the ultimate line by marvel.