Best and Worst of the Star Wars Expanded Universe [Archive]

Loren

06-13-2005, 10:10 AM

I took part in an all-night "Star Wars" viewing over the weekend. I managed to stay awake until about halfway through the "A New Hope," as laying on the floor is not a good way to avoid falling asleep.

I was reminded of how I used to be a much bigger Star Wars fan than I am today. Some of the first comics I followed regularly were Dark Horse's "Tales of the Jedi" series. I have a small collection of the novels. But I haven't bought an Expanded Universe tie-in for some years now. The closest I've come is watching the "Clone Wars" cartoons.

But there's certainly been an awful lot of tie-ins released over the years, and from the early '90s on it felt like Lucas' people were doing their best to create a consistent and cohesive universe (unlike, say, the Star Trek tie-ins that each exist independently and don't change much). And as is inevitable, some of these contributions to the Expanded Universe are better than others.

So which ones put Lucas to shame, and which ones made "The Phantom Menace" look Oscar-worthy by comparison? Which concepts and characters were ingenious (even if the titles they appeared in were drek), and which ones made you yearn for Jar-Jar? And it doesn't matter if it's from the books or the comics or the kiddie novels.

Here are a few that come to my mind:

The Good:
Timothy Zahn's Trilogy - The much-lauded great sequel. One little thing I like about Zahn is that he appreciated that space travel took time. In "Revenge of the Sith," characters seem to jaunt from planet to planet in no time whatsoever.

Ulic Qel-Droma - I don't have any specific memories of any of the "Tales of the Jedi" stories, but I always liked the idea of them, allowing writers to play with the SW universe without having to worry too much about Lucas contradicting them. Ulic, as a fallen and then redeemed Jedi, is a suitably tragic character.

The Bad:
The Star Wars Holiday Special - When Lucas himself disavows it and refuses to merchandise it, you know it's bad.

Parallel Universes - "The Crystal Star" was probably the worst SW novel I read. And it occurs to me that this wasn't because it was ineptly written, but because I hated the final revelation so much. The big antagonist is a Jedi from a parallel universe? The Star Wars Universe doesn't need alternate dimensions and such sci-fi stuff.

Loren

Gaz

06-13-2005, 10:19 AM

Good:
Wraith Squadron.
Well drawn characters with wit and pathos that doesn't have the stilted feel Lucas appears to strive for. Several of Face and Ton's back-and-forths actually made me LOL.

Mara Jade
Hot kickass redhead who can stan up to Luke, what else can I say? (Talon was a good idea also.)

BoosterBronze

06-13-2005, 10:23 AM

THE BEST
Clone Wars Cartoon- Freakin' Awesome
KOTOR Games- I and II have some awesome stories.
Courtship of Princess Leia- Just a fun, fun, story.
Shatterpoint- Great novel. Practically stands alone as a piece of literature.
TheForce.net FanFilms- I'd say 4/5 of them are just plain enjoyable.
Old Han Solo Novels- "Stars End" "Lost Legacy" "Revenge" were all great stories that first explored the idea of an "EU."

THE WORST
Truce at Bakura- Aliens that suck your life force? To sci-fi.
Infinities- They just seem so inane and pointless.
Tales of the Bounty Hunters- I'm sorry, but IG-88 took control of the Death Star? Lame.

Gaz

06-13-2005, 10:25 AM

I must be, like, the only person here who enjoyed Bakura. (And they're better than the Vong)

Deathstroke

06-13-2005, 11:22 AM

I must be, like, the only person here who enjoyed Bakura. (And they're better than the Vong)

And we've scheduled your shock therapy sessions for liking that flaming pile of cow dung for Thursday.

Jared

06-13-2005, 11:52 AM

Worst (aside from some of those noted): The NJO storyarc, overall. Too long. Killed off the wrong characters in dumb ways. The Vong just don't feel SW-ish, and to me, the whole story itself just seems themeatically wrong, at least as far as it occuring during Luke and Han's time-line. It's like, they conquered innumerable odds, saw the Empire defeated and the Sith destroyed, just so that 20 years later, alien fanatics from another galaxy can come along and kill trillions of beings and nearly wipe out Coruscant and end the New Republic. Ugh... Oh, and as for the big revelation in one of the later books that there is no Dark Side...that just doesn't seem right.

Jedi Acadamy Trilogy: some good moments, but generally crappy execution. Goes overboard with the latest super weapon: a small ship that is invincible *and* can blow up stars! Introduces Admiral Daala, and intends her to be a major villain, but she comes off more like an evil Janeway, getting her ass handed to her at every turn. And I didn't find Kyp Durron all that interesting, even when he was going to the Dark Side.

(lesser complaint) Some of the over-the-topness of the otherwise excellent Clone Wars micro series. Jedi aren't suppossed to be gods. But they have Mace, Yoda, et all...doing feats in the cartoons, that if they could really do, would have given the movies a much, much different outcome. Cartoon Mace could have won the battle of Genonosis arena by himself. Without a lightsaber.

Good: Second for 'Shatterpoint'. A Star Wars-ized Apocalypse Now.

The Dark Forces/Jedi Knight Series. The main character is basically what we'd all want to be: Han Solo as a Jedi. And lightsaber dueling in the last two games is spectacular. I think, if they ever make a Knights of the New Republic Game, they should use the dark side ending of Jedi Academy as the basis.

'Shadows the Empire'. Didn't read the comic, but the book was pretty good, as was the N64 game. Does a fine job of filling in the space between Episodes V and VI.

Aayla Secura. Yeah, I'd hit it. And so would you.

Exar Kun. He just rocks. Except for the lame confrontation with his ghost in Jedi Acadamey Trilogy.

I haven't read the Thrawn trilogy yet, but I have borrowed the books from a friend, so I will get around to it. Unfortunatly I already know the major plot points, I think.

Dark Empire series: Of all the post-ROTJ stories, I think this would have been the best suited as an actual sequel trilogy.

Crimson Empire. Badass Royal Guardsman has his own adventure. Cool stuff. I'm glad this guy wasn't guarding Palpatine when Yoda walked in.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. A nice lead-in story to Episode I. 'Cloak of Deception' may fill a similar role, but I never read that one. Like Shatterpoint, it's a bit darker than you might expect from an SW book, and while it doesn't really expand as much on Maul himself as you might think, it does have some interesting characters (including the coolest protocol droid ever) and exciting scenes. Plus, ISTR that when I read this, I actually understood what was going on with that trade taxation/blockade stuff from Episode I.

The Clone Wars shorts.

favorite fan films: Troops, Art of the Saber, Ryan vs. Dorkman, Duality, Empire of One, the Battle of Hoth documentary, The Dark Redemption, The Empire Strikes Backyard.
'Revelations' should be seen just to appreciate the incredible production value they managed. Shame the acting, the script, and the "fight" scenes are horrid.

PerfectBrak

06-13-2005, 03:00 PM

Good

Zahn Triology: Excellent sequel. Created so many new characters that were actually interesting. Mara Jade, Talon Kardde, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Pellaeon...if only all EU novels could be this good.

The Courtship of Princess Leia: A blast to read, it felt exactly like what a Star Wars novel should be. Force witches of Dathomir were a neat idea.

Tales Of/From.... Most of the stories in the Bounty Hunters, Mos Eisley Cantina, and Jabbas Palace editions were great. I liked how bit characters from the movies, like the Max Rebo Band or Bossk, were expanded and very intriguing.

Bad

Darksaber and Truce at Bakura: It's been a long time since I read either, but I remember both being generally boring. Nothing special.

New Jedi Order: Had promise, but became something other than Star Wars. Killed off characters for no reason. Way too long.

Loren

06-13-2005, 08:51 PM

Worst (aside from those noted): The NJO storyarc, overall. Oh, and as for the big revelation in one of the later books that there is no Dark Side...that just doesn't seem right.

Say what now? No Dark Side?

Jedi Acadamey Trilogy: some good moments, but generally crappy execution. Goes overboard with the latest super weapon: a small ship that is invincible *and* can blow up stars!

How many uber-weapons did the Expanded Universe ascribe to Palpatine? The movies gave him two Death Stars. Jedi Academy offered up the Sun Crasher, plus a mini-Death Star. Dark Empire II had the Galactic Gun. Children of the Jedi had the Eye of Palpatine. And Darksaber had a Hutt with his own Death Star.

'Shadows the Empire'. Didn't read the comic, but the book was pretty good, as was the N64 game. Does a fine job of filling in the space between Episodes V and VI.

I kinda liked this at the time, but when I reread the comic, I wasn't all that impressed. I liked Xizor, but about all I remember from the book was that the author tried to be cute a little too often (giving the SWU a version of television, and working his own name into the novel).

Aayla Secura. Yeah, I'd hit it. And so would you.

It's good to know I'm not alone. And I just learned that she was created by John Ostrander and Jan Duursema, and was the first Expanded Universe character created by someone else that Lucas worked into a film.

Dark Empire series: Of all the post-ROTJ stories, I think this would have been the best suited as an actual sequel trilogy

Eh, the first one was good, but the second one was pretty much just more of the same, IMO. And the third was a tie-up-the-loose-ends waste of space.

Loren

Loren

06-13-2005, 09:24 PM

Darksaber and Truce at Bakura: It's been a long time since I read either, but I remember both being generally boring. Nothing special.

I liked the idea of "Darksaber," in that it tried to pull together aspects of a handful of different EU books. But yeah, it ended up being dull.

I tried reading "Truce at Bakura," but I couldn't make it more than a few chapters in. I gave up reading at least once, and might have even tried a second time and failed. That boring it was.

Loren

pennywisdom

06-14-2005, 11:12 AM

I agree that the Clone Wars animated series on Cartoon Network was really great. I'm of the mind that the prequel trilogy is underrated and this animated series really mines a lot of that potential.

A lot of expanded universe stuff strikes me as being nothing more than better-than-average fanfic (that also happens to be in-continuity and approved by LucasFilm). Having said that, Shadows of the Empire, both the book and video game, was amazing.

leg end

06-14-2005, 01:47 PM

Best:

The X-Wings series, particularly Wraith Squadron. Great characters, humour and good stories tying things together.

The NJO series. Brought back alot of old stuff/characters, extended the Star Wars Universe and was generally well written. I enjoyed it.

Worst:
Darksabre and The Crystal Star- just plain dull.

Jared

06-15-2005, 03:42 PM

Say what now? No Dark Side?

How many uber-weapons did the Expanded Universe ascribe to Palpatine? The movies gave him two Death Stars. Jedi Academy offered up the Sun Crasher, plus a mini-Death Star. Dark Empire II had the Galactic Gun. Children of the Jedi had the Eye of Palpatine. And Darksaber had a Hutt with his own Death Star.

>Don't forget the World Devestators. And the Eclipse Super Star Destroyers might count, too.

I kinda liked this at the time, but when I reread the comic, I wasn't all that impressed. I liked Xizor, but about all I remember from the book was that the author tried to be cute a little too often (giving the SWU a version of television, and working his own name into the novel).

It's good to know I'm not alone. And I just learned that she was created by John Ostrander and Jan Duursema, and was the first Expanded Universe character created by someone else that Lucas worked into a film.

>I find it amusing that she wasn't even played a real actress. Just some woman who worked at Lucasfilm that somebody figured would look good in blue. :)

cactusmaac

06-15-2005, 03:59 PM

Gaz

06-15-2005, 04:05 PM

Pretty much everything set post-Jedi (and I'm including the Zahn books and Dark Empire) have been a waste of time with the three main characters lurching from one tired crisis to another well into ther middle age.

And that stuff looks even weaker now what with all that's been set up in the prequels.

How exactly would Luke go about resurrecting the Jedi Order and how would the people of the (former) Empire feel about having them back in their midst?

How would he develop as he becomes the most powerful Jedi of all time?

What about the political ramifications of the death of the Emperor and the unresolved differences with the former Separatist worlds?

Would Luke and Leia go back to Naboo? Padme's family was still alive at the time of Sith (they were in the funeral procession) after all.

That's the kind of stuff that's interesting to explore not the sodding Vuzhan Vong.

On the plus side Coruscant, Mara Jade and Thrawn were decent additions to the mythos.

As far as the EU goes, I'll take the decent video games, Ostrander's comics, Clone Wars, Star Wars Tales and the Jedi\Sith stuff from the Ulic Qel-Droma era.

OK, so the fact that Lucas ignored most of that stuff invalidates it as having any merit?
So NO pre-Crisis DC stuff is worth anything either? DKR is worthless?
Don't see it, if the plot is entertaining and the characters well written (more than the prequels have) then it's worth it.
And the X-Wing series? Set a couple of years later and has very little of the three leads.
And resurrecting the Order? That's what the Academy trilogy's ABOUT! Same with the development of his powers.
The political stuff was dealt with in Courtship and the X-Wing novels.

Jared

06-15-2005, 04:18 PM

OK, so the fact that Lucas ignored most of that stuff invalidates it as having any merit?

I don't if I'd go that far, but alot of it really doesn't seem like a fitting continuation of the saga. There are many conspicuously absent elements, because the writers didn't know what was going to be in the prequels yet. Nobody knew about Jedi not having attachments, normally being trained from infancy, the Rule of Two, the prophecy of the Chosen One, the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Hell, some books gave the impression that the Clone Wars were fought *against* evil clones, and that the Empire had banned cloning technology. And doesn't the Svvi-Ruk crisis literally start *right* after the end of Return of the Jedi? That always struck me as lame.

As I understand it, the sales were way down by the end of the NJO series. And the events therein are so impactful in scope that it's not like the next batch of stories can just gloss over them. Too much as changed in the galaxy, too many characters are gone. IMO, the best thing might be to continue that branch of stories as it's own universe, and hopefully, somebody, they'll start over with another, seperate line of post-ROTJ stories.
We've already had the parrallel universe concept introduced to the franchise, after all.

Gaz

06-15-2005, 04:34 PM

I don't if I'd go that far, but alot of it really doesn't seem like a fitting continuation of the saga. There are many conspicuously absent elements, because the writers didn't know what was going to be in the prequels yet. Nobody knew about Jedi not having attachments, normally being trained from infancy, the Rule of Two, the prophecy of the Chosen One, the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Hell, some books gave the impression that the Clone Wars were fought *against* evil clones, and that the Empire had banned cloning technology. And doesn't the Svvi-Ruk crisis literally start *right* after the end of Return of the Jedi? That always struck me as lame.

As I understand it, the sales were way down by the end of the NJO series. And the events therein are so impactful in scope that it's not like the next batch of stories can just gloss over them. Too much as changed in the galaxy, too many characters are gone. IMO, the best thing might be to continue that branch of stories as it's own universe, and hopefully, somebody, they'll start over with another, seperate line of post-ROTJ stories.
We've already had the parrallel universe concept introduced to the franchise, after all.

Fair enough.
And I like to think the prequels took place in their own reality... ;)
But he gave the impression that the whole thing should be tossed out without looking at it, and sounded like he hadn't read much of it.
(And the Allston X-Wing novels are some of my favorite "fun reads", so I'm not being told they're meritless)

cactusmaac

06-15-2005, 04:44 PM

OK, so the fact that Lucas ignored most of that stuff invalidates it as having any merit?

?

I've mentioned a bunch of stuff I liked that has no bearing on SW continuity. I dislike most of the post-Jedi stuff because it is largely forgettable and of average quality.

And the X-Wing series? Set a couple of years later and has very little of the three leads.

Pity the books by Stackpole were as exciting as the manual for a microwave oven.

And resurrecting the Order? That's what the Academy trilogy's ABOUT! Same with the development of his powers.
The political stuff was dealt with in Courtship and the X-Wing novels.

Courtship had zilch to do with the politics except as a way to get the Hapans in the story.

And like Jared said, the reestablishment of the Order didn't touch at all upon stuff like attachment, the living force and the Jedi practice of bringing in trainees from the time they're newborns.

Understandable given the timeframe but it doesn't help make them any more relevant.

FYI I've read the Dark Empire trilogy, Zahn's and Anderson's Jedi Academy work, Bakura, Courtship of Princess Leia (probably the best SW book), the Corellian Crisis (Han Solo's evil cousin!), Darksabre, the first couple of X-Wing novels before finally bailing out with the Black Fleet Crisis.

Gaz

06-15-2005, 04:47 PM

?

I've mentioned a bunch of stuff I liked that has no bearing on SW continuity. I dislike most of the post-Jedi stuff because it is largely forgettable and of average quality.

Pity the books by Stackpole were as exciting as the manual for a microwave oven.

Courtship had zilch to do with the politics except as a way to get the Hapans in the story.

And like Jared said, the reestablishment of the Order didn't touch at all upon stuff like attachment, the living force and the Jedi practice of bringing in trainees from the time they're newborns.

Understandable given the timeframe but it doesn't help make them any more relevant.

FYI I've read the Dark Empire trilogy, Zahn's and Anderson's Jedi Academy work, Bakura, Courtship of Princess Leia (probably the best SW book), the Corellian Crisis (Han Solo's evil cousin!), Darksabre, the first couple of X-Wing novels before finally bailing out with the Black Fleet Crisis.

I think if you go in expecting what you KNOW isn't there as a result of them being written prior to Lucas making BS up, then of course you'll be disappointed. And as they WERE the continuity for 20 years, I don't get how they had no effect. :confused:
And the Wraith X-Wing books and the last one, all by Allston are great,touching and genuinely funny. (Also tie into Courtship, as I recall)

cactusmaac

06-15-2005, 05:16 PM

It wouldn't be so bad if they were enjoyable works in their own right.

Mostly they're not.

regnak

06-15-2005, 05:28 PM

It wouldn't be so bad if they were enjoyable works in their own right.

Mostly they're not.

That's just your opinion, others like myself feel differently. I've liked much of the post ROTJ EU(although I haven't read it all) and nothing has been anywhere near as bad as the TPM. Moreover some of the stuff that you like from the PT others consider garbage. (Midichlorans ugh) Finally the PT doesn't always match up with the OT. You could nitpick the OT from the if you tried.

For that matter I remember back when or shortly after ROTJ first came out Lucas said somewhere that the Clone Wars were against Clonemasters and clone armies. You can't blame the EU for inconsistencies when Lucas changes his mind.

Gaz

06-15-2005, 05:35 PM

It wouldn't be so bad if they were enjoyable works in their own right.

Mostly they're not.
A few of the ones you don't think are, are great little reads IMO. Zahn's always worth the money, I like the Academy trilogy, Stackpole is for a certain mood/type of person, and Allston is just plain fun (sad too, sometimes.)

cactusmaac

06-15-2005, 05:37 PM

Zahn's too techy for Star Wars (slave drives? WTF?).

Stacpole's novels were crimes against humanity.

Gaz

06-15-2005, 05:40 PM

Zahn's too techy for Star Wars (slave drives? WTF?).

Stacpole's novels were crimes against humanity.
If you actually LIKE midichlorians then I doubt we'll be able to bridge this impasse, let's just say you can have the PT and I'll take the EU. That way we're both happy.

cactusmaac

06-15-2005, 05:42 PM

I'll take some from column A and some from column B.

Gaz

06-15-2005, 05:45 PM

I'll take some from column A and some from column B.
Seems more like most from A and crumbs from B.

cactusmaac

06-15-2005, 05:47 PM

Well, I like midichlorians.

Anakin being created by Darth Plagueis is a great idea.

Gaz

06-15-2005, 05:59 PM

Well, I like midichlorians.

Anakin being created by Darth Plagueis is a great idea.
Midiclorians are needless technobabble that removes the mystical side of the Jedi.
The Sith plot to make Anakin is something I've only heard online. I get where it comes from, but it was (shock) too vague.
Odd that George over-eggs the bad stuff and the intriguing bits get footnoted.

Loren

06-15-2005, 06:25 PM

I've mentioned a bunch of stuff I liked that has no bearing on SW continuity. I dislike most of the post-Jedi stuff because it is largely forgettable and of average quality.

That was actually my conclusion about a bunch of the comics I'd bought when I went back to read them over a few years back. Even Dark Empire wasn't all that. But I still like Zahn's stuff.

Pity the books by Stackpole were as exciting as the manual for a microwave oven.

I bought the first "X-Wing" comic mini, and found it inordinately dull. I also own Stackpole's "I, Jedi," which I've never read but always heard was good.

And like Jared said, the reestablishment of the Order didn't touch at all upon stuff like attachment, the living force and the Jedi practice of bringing in trainees from the time they're newborns.

I'll choose to view this as a combination of Luke's ignorance and decisionmaking. Given how well the whole 'attachment' thing worked out in the prequels (and my own opinion of the notion), I have little problem with Luke jettisoning that philosophy. And if he wants to rebuild the order, he doesn't have much choice other than to take on older students.

Loren

Gaz

06-15-2005, 06:31 PM

That was actually my conclusion about a bunch of the comics I'd bought when I went back to read them over a few years back. Even Dark Empire wasn't all that. But I still like Zahn's stuff.

I bought the first "X-Wing" comic mini, and found it inordinately dull. I also own Stackpole's "I, Jedi," which I've never read but always heard was good.

I'll choose to view this as a combination of Luke's ignorance and decisionmaking. Given how well the whole 'attachment' thing worked out in the prequels (and my own opinion of the notion), I have little problem with Luke jettisoning that philosophy. And if he wants to rebuild the order, he doesn't have much choice other than to take on older students.

Loren

He also started training kids later on, like his nephews and niece.

Jared

06-15-2005, 07:06 PM

I'll choose to view this as a combination of Luke's ignorance and decisionmaking. Given how well the whole 'attachment' thing worked out in the prequels (and my own opinion of the notion), I have little problem with Luke jettisoning that philosophy. And if he wants to rebuild the order, he doesn't have much choice other than to take on older students.

I dont' mind the New Order going in that direction myself. But I'd like to see the issues at least dealt with in some ways. Of course, since these stories were written before the prequels, they had no idea these issues even existed.

Anyway, for those turned off by the post-ROTJ stuff, you still might want to give the prequel materials a try. The continuity is much tighter, and while I haven't read enough to make a sweeping comment about overall quality, none of the six or seven novels that I've read were bad. Well, The Approaching Storm was kinda dull, but it wasn't unpleasant to read. And AFAIK, Kevin J. Anderson hasn't written any! Huzah!

North

06-16-2005, 02:36 AM

Zahn's too techy for Star Wars (slave drives? WTF?).

Stacpole's novels were crimes against humanity.

-_-

Stackpoles series was easily my favorite out of the whole EU. They had amazing character development, awesome fights and great dialogue. Plus cause he didnt use the holy trinity of Luke, leia and han. YOu actually had to worry if the characters were going to live thru the story or not. Main characers died.... often. When I read the ending of wedges gamble it was giving me chills.

My favorite series in star wars hands down and one of the best overall.

moebius

06-16-2005, 02:56 AM

[QUOTE=cactusmaac]Zahn's too techy for Star Wars (slave drives? WTF?).QUOTE]

Slaves drives are too techy for Star Wars? What do you think a restraining bolt is? It´s a slave drive for a droid.

For me, the Zahn trilogy remains the best thing to come out of EU. Anything by Kevin J. Andersen you can forget about (with the exception of Kyp Durron), as well as most of the standalone books (Courtship of Princess Leia also the exception). Some of the NJO books were interesting; LucasFilm was willing to make gutsy decsisions by killing major characters and altering their universe.

The Dark Forces series was great, and a nice look at the "gritty" side of the EU. The X-Wing series stands out for the same reason.

The problem with the EU is the Republic\Empire conflict played itself out a long time ago. They tried to replace the Empire with the Vong, and I think that worked moderately well by introducing villains that relate to the galaxy and the Force in completely new ways. But now there aren´t any big threats left, and there´s only so many times Luke can save the galaxy before it gets old. They need to make the major players from the OT NPCs (so to speak) and start developing the next generation of Jedi as interesting in their own right.

GoGo Yubari

06-16-2005, 08:40 AM

Tales of the Bounty Hunters- I'm sorry, but IG-88 took control of the Death Star? Lame.

Bah. I LOVED that story. And I thought it was a totally plausible explanation for that. Plus, Boba Fett owning the other three IG-88's was awesome.

I also really enjoyed Dengar's story. I never read past that because I got lazy..

Jared

06-16-2005, 10:44 AM

[QUOTE=cactusmaac]
For me, the Zahn trilogy remains the best thing to come out of EU. Anything by Kevin J. Andersen you can forget about (with the exception of Kyp Durron), as well as most of the standalone books (Courtship of Princess Leia also the exception). Some of the NJO books were interesting; LucasFilm was willing to make gutsy decsisions by killing major characters and altering their universe.

I think they made a huge mistake in killing Chewbacca of all people. We know that Han, Leia,and even Luke are getting too old for this sh*t. But Wookies have a lifespan measured in centuries. It would have been better to keep him around, and kill off almost anyone else. Chewy could have been a character link to the Old Trilogy for decades to come, assuming the franchise continues in books and comics.

Rasputin

06-16-2005, 02:21 PM

I really liked the Tales books, especially the Jabba Palace one. The bounty Hunter book was the weakest since it was much more hit-or-miss (to me, Boba Fett is DEAD; there was no escape from the Sarlaac Pit).

Shadow Hunter and Shatterpoint were also great reads.

The NJO is not the least bit enjoyable to me. And while I liked Zahn's Heir to the Empire series, the Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future books were quite weak in comparison.

On a side note, the first time I read Shadows of the Empire, I thought it was fantastic. Subsequent reads didn't quite stack up for whatever reason, however.

Bored at 3:00AM

06-16-2005, 02:57 PM

I guess I'm outta luck if I'm looking EU stuff then because I too thought Timothy Zhan's revered trilogy was filled with so much needless techno babble that I ended up skimming dozens upon dozens of pages before I finally finished the damn trilogy out of some misplaced sense of obligation.

Is this is truely the best the EU has to offer?

Gaz

06-16-2005, 02:59 PM

spideyguy0

06-16-2005, 03:29 PM

GOOD
New Jedi Order- maybe the best told stories of the EU if you can overlook the rather dumb overall plot of big bad ugly aliens from another galaxy on a quest for universal domination.
Ulic Qel Droma and Nomi Sunrider
Anything by Kevin J. Anderson
Kir Kanos
Mara Jade
Rogue Suadron
Quinlan Vos and Aayla Secura
The Glove of Darth Vader books- hated by many but truly amazing and inspiring if read by a 7 year old as his first non-movie Star Wars stories (as was the case with me)

BAD
Crystal Star
Black Fleet Crisis
Cam Kennedy
Galaxy of Fear
Skippy The Jedi Droid
superweapons
Jedi vs Sith
continuity mistakes like Anakin Solo attending the Jedi Academy before the twins even though it says in the first JJK book that the twins were just coming back when Anakin was leaving.

moebius

06-17-2005, 09:09 AM

I think they made a huge mistake in killing Chewbacca of all people. We know that Han, Leia,and even Luke are getting too old for this sh*t. But Wookies have a lifespan measured in centuries. It would have been better to keep him around, and kill off almost anyone else. Chewy could have been a character link to the Old Trilogy for decades to come, assuming the franchise continues in books and comics.

I actually thought it was the right way to go. Of all the OT characters, Chewbacca has the least to offer in a novel format. He's always been a cipher (we never really get to read his thoughts), and no one can understand what he says. Chewbacca's a visual character before anything, and killing him still has a tremendous emotional impact. Something you wouldn't get from killing R2.

It also led to some great Han stories, which was the point.

I actually thought that the Solo child they chose to kill was far more controversial, though I'm not particularly fond of any of them.

ChrisII

06-17-2005, 10:29 AM

Dark Horses's Star Wars prequel trilogy ongoing-called " Star Wars Republic" since AOTC came out-is pretty good. It has some of the most detailed artwork ever in Star Wars comics (By Jan Duuresama). It's had some pretty good prequel tales, mostly by John Ostrander-notable stuff including the Battle Of Jaabim, Dreadnoughts of Rendilli and the Quinlan Vos/Aayla Secura stories. Although with the prequels ending I'm not sure about the future of the title. "Jedi" and "Obsession" also feature some neat Clone Wars-era stuff, and the latter pretty much wrap up the whole Ventress and Durge subplot throughout all the Clone Wars media.

There's also Star Wars Empire, but it seems to be more anthology-driven, like Star Wars tales. There's some nifty Vader stories in the series...

Nate Grey

06-17-2005, 10:35 AM

I actually thought that the Solo child they chose to kill was far more controversial, though I'm not particularly fond of any of them.

Good gravy! :eek: Which book can I read that in? I don't wanna know who, just the book. Cause man...I thought the Solo and Skywalker kids would be, you know, pretty much safe from early death.

spideyguy0

06-17-2005, 12:13 PM

Good gravy! :eek: Which book can I read that in? I don't wanna know who, just the book. Cause man...I thought the Solo and Skywalker kids would be, you know, pretty much safe from early death.

New Jedi Order #9: Star By Star by Troy Denning

spideyguy0

06-17-2005, 12:14 PM

Dark Horses's Star Wars prequel trilogy ongoing-called " Star Wars Republic" since AOTC came out-is pretty good. It has some of the most detailed artwork ever in Star Wars comics (By Jan Duuresama). Although with the prequels ending I'm not sure about the future of the title.

There's also Star Wars Empire, but it seems to be more anthology-driven, like Star Wars tales. There's some nifty Vader stories in the series...

All 3 of these are great series but with Dark Horse redoing their SW line, all 3 of these are being canceled at the end of the year.

Rasputin

06-17-2005, 12:18 PM

Dark Horses's Star Wars prequel trilogy ongoing-called " Star Wars Republic" since AOTC came out-is pretty good. It has some of the most detailed artwork ever in Star Wars comics (By Jan Duuresama). It's had some pretty good prequel tales, mostly by John Ostrander-notable stuff including the Battle Of Jaabim, Dreadnoughts of Rendilli and the Quinlan Vos/Aayla Secura stories. Although with the prequels ending I'm not sure about the future of the title. "Jedi" and "Obsession" also feature some neat Clone Wars-era stuff, and the latter pretty much wrap up the whole Ventress and Durge subplot throughout all the Clone Wars media.

Agreed. I really like the Clone Wars Republic stories. They do a very good job of fleshing out the Clone Wars and some secondary characters.

I read that late summer/early autumn, Republic will shift focus to post ROTS Vader and his solidification as the #2 Sith. It has me intrigued.

Rasputin

06-17-2005, 12:20 PM

All 3 of these are great series but with Dark Horse redoing their SW line, all 3 of these are being canceled at the end of the year.

I had heard differently (as posted above) about Republic. Are they just creating a new series to go along with the post-ROTS era instead?

spideyguy0

06-17-2005, 03:01 PM

Yes, DH will have lots of post-ROTS Vader stories, starting late this year or early next year, but they will not be in Republic. DH has refused to comment on the exact format of anything they're going to do after this year. All the available info is on theforce.net

bones mccoy

06-17-2005, 04:03 PM

on a note about the prequels being in an alternate universe to the original triology:

"these are not the prequels you've been looking for."

Polar Bear

06-17-2005, 04:15 PM

I'm another odd duck.

I thought Zahn's trilogy had lots of strengths, but lots of weaknesses, too. A lost dark Jedi clone on a far-away planet? Didn't satisfy.

Shadows of the Empire I thought unremarkable, especially because I'd wondered for years how Luke had progressed from the stage of mastery we saw in TESB to ROTJ, and Shadows finally reveals the secret--one day, it just came to him. He could suddenly do everything. Personally disappointing.

Kevin Anderson's Young Jedi stuff, where they saw auras? Couldn't bring myself to read a chapter at a time.

And I thought Tyers' Truce at Bakura a very strong book. But hey, to each their own.

Nice thread, by the way.

Gaz

06-17-2005, 04:17 PM

cactusmaac

06-17-2005, 04:26 PM

I thought Bakura was OK.

Certainly the dynamic of Imperials and Rebels having to fight together was interesting.

Wolf-Man

06-17-2005, 08:10 PM

Best is Kyle Katarn. Those Jedi games rocked. Worst? Hmm. That curly haired blonde kid in ewok adventures.

PerfectBrak

06-17-2005, 09:03 PM

I thought Bakura was OK.

Certainly the dynamic of Imperials and Rebels having to fight together was interesting.

I don't think I ever got that far.

Lurker

06-18-2005, 05:50 PM

Gaz

06-18-2005, 05:54 PM

Top of my head on what's wrong with the EU:

1. The very idea of the Emperor surviving any kind of way after ROTJ and Luke turning to the dark side destroys the very base fundemental story of Star Wars.

2. Cloning Jedi; Now if they could clone Jedi, don't you think there would have been an army of Tyrannus' running around instead of Jangos?

3. Ysalimiri (sp?); creatures that create a bubble in which the force doesn't exist? Destroys the fundemental element of Star Wars.

What's right? They turned it into Starship troopers?
The animals just suppress the abilities of those with Force sensitivity.
Cloning Jedi? And have a hundred potential traitors running around and no way to tell which one's which? Forgetting WHY the rule of 2 exists, aren't we.
And Luke being constantly tempted IS the fundamental story.

spideyguy0

06-18-2005, 07:57 PM

2. Cloning Jedi; Now if they could clone Jedi, don't you think there would have been an army of Tyrannus' running around instead of Jangos?

The whole point of the Clone Wars was to eliminate the Jedi and create an army for Palpatine to enforce his rule. A Sith lord wouldnt create an army of Jedi clones.

Dennis K

06-18-2005, 08:01 PM

A Sith lord wouldnt create an army of Jedi clones.

But wouldn't the Emperor at least clone himself?

Gaz

06-18-2005, 08:04 PM

But wouldn't the Emperor at least clone himself?
Yes, but not unless necessary. Too risky to have some one that treacherous, smart and 30 years younger around.

Mr. Croup

06-18-2005, 08:35 PM

Palpatine did clone himself, he just had to wait ten years for the bodies to mature. The problem was that there was something wrong, and they wore out too quickly.

The thing that bothers me is that in the EU, the Hutts are self-impregnating hermaphrodites. Even if a race is hermaphrodidic, it still takes at least two to tango.

The neatist thing was the Hutt Force Adept, Beldorian of the Ruby Eyes. He was in Planet of Twilight.

Certain novels of the NJO were good, but still it could have been better. Hopefully, someone will write about them fixing the Galaxy.

According to the last book, Lowbacca and his cousin, take up Chewbacca's Life Debt with Han.

PerfectBrak

06-18-2005, 08:38 PM

According to the last book, Lowbacca and his cousin, take up Chewbacca's Life Debt with Han.

I would've thought a Life Debt ended when the one indebted dies. So will Chewbacca's family protect Han until he is dead?

Mr. Croup

06-18-2005, 08:46 PM

I don't know, I just glanced at the last book.

Artemis1

06-18-2005, 09:19 PM

Droids anyone? That was bad.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:14 PM

The animals just suppress the abilities of those with Force sensitivity.
Cloning Jedi? And have a hundred potential traitors running around and no way to tell which one's which? Forgetting WHY the rule of 2 exists, aren't we.
And Luke being constantly tempted IS the fundamental story.

Ysalmiri are a poor ill-conceived plot device.

The clones were manipulated at their genetic foundation to be totally obediant to Palpatine. Think about that for a moment. By that logic, if you could clone a force user, you could clone it to be just as loyal as a Commander Cody or an Oddball. I don't think you can clone force users because of midiclorians, though. They are separate life forms afterall.

The fundamental story of Star Wars is of Anakin Skywalker's destiny to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Luke made his choice in Return of the Jedi. If you don't understand that, you don't understand Star Wars.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:16 PM

The whole point of the Clone Wars was to eliminate the Jedi and create an army for Palpatine to enforce his rule. A Sith lord wouldnt create an army of Jedi clones.

He probally would if they were totally obediant to him like the clones were, but I don't believe you can clone a force-user which is why he didn't 'cuz he couldn't.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 12:23 PM

Ysalmiri are a poor ill-conceived plot device.

The clones were manipulated at their genetic foundation to be totally obediant to Palpatine. Think about that for a moment. By that logic, if you could clone a force user, you could clone it to be just as loyal as a Commander Cody or an Oddball. I don't think you can clone force users because of midiclorians, though. They are separate life forms afterall.

The fundamental story of Star Wars is of Anakin Skywalker's destiny to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Luke made his choice in Return of the Jedi. If you don't understand that, you don't understand Star Wars.
1) IYO.
2)No, they were indoctrinated from birth to be loyal and unquestioning, which makes for incompetant Jedi. And the *shudder* midiclorian thing.
3)Only if you accept the prequels as equal to the original 3. Luke chose which path he wanted, yes. But it's not exactly interesting to just follow him stalwartly following said path, never being tempted to move faster, channel anger or fear into weapons against enemies.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:28 PM

2)No, they were indoctrinated from birth to be loyal and unquestioning, which makes for incompetant Jedi. And the *shudder* midiclorian thing.

Go back and watch Attack of the Clones and pay attention to the dialog about Boba Fett. To paraphrase: no tampering with the genetic profile to make him more docile...

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:30 PM

3)Only if you accept the prequels as equal to the original 3. Luke chose which path he wanted, yes. But it's not exactly interesting to just follow him stalwartly following said path, never being tempted to move faster, channel anger or fear into weapons against enemies.

This is not a point, this is an opinion.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 12:30 PM

Go back and watch Attack of the Clones and pay attention to the dialog about Boba Fett. To paraphrase: no tampering with the genetic profile to make him more docile...
My point still stands in that they'd likely be unable to have the mindset required to use the Force effectively.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 12:31 PM

This is not a point, this is an opinion.
Answering someone else's opinion.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:34 PM

Answering someone else's opinion.

The creator of the Star Wars movies has stated countless times what the saga is about.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:36 PM

My point still stands in that they'd likely be unable to have the mindset required to use the Force effectively.

My point was you simply cannot clone a force-user period meaning that I believe Joruus C'boath to be one of the worst examples of EU.

cactusmaac

06-19-2005, 12:36 PM

Luke made his choice in Return of the Jedi. If you don't understand that, you don't understand Star Wars.

Yeah, that is daft.

He turned his back on the Dark Side even if it meant dying himself.

He wouldn't succumb to it later on.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 12:38 PM

Yeah, that is daft.

He turned his back on the Dark Side even if it meant dying himself.

He wouldn't succumb to it later on.
Considering he'd lose even if he did kill Palpatine, he made the only logical choice available.

cactusmaac

06-19-2005, 12:40 PM

Resurrecting Palpatine was a crap story-telling decision too.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:42 PM

Considering he'd lose even if he did kill Palpatine, he made the only logical choice available.

I have no idea what you mean. Could you please clarify?

Gaz

06-19-2005, 12:42 PM

My point was you simply cannot clone a force-user period meaning that I believe Joruus C'boath to be one of the worst examples of EU.
Ok, now give us some positive ones, otherwise it looks like you're ragging on the entire concept based on like, 2 plot devices.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 12:53 PM

Ok, now give us some positive ones, otherwise it looks like you're ragging on the entire concept based on like, 2 plot devices.

Oh, I can tear the EU apart piece by freaking piece. By no means do "like, 2 plot devices" put most of it in the gutter for me. Generally, lack of research and understanding, unoriginality and just plain lazy bad writing are the main things.

What's good about it? It kept the concept alive in kicking in various forms of media through the 1990s just when it appeared Star Wars was finally going to disappear from minds of its core audience. Even the worse of it lined the pockets of the Lucas Empire which helped eventually fund the prequels. And the card game from Decipher; that was a great game.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 12:56 PM

Oh, I can tear the EU apart piece by freaking piece. By no means do "like, 2 plot devices" put most of it in the gutter for me. Generally, lack of research and understanding, unoriginality and just plain lazy bad writing are the main things.

What's good about it? It kept the concept alive in kicking in various forms of media through the 1990s just when it appeared Star Wars was finally going to disappear from minds of its core audience. Even the worse of it lined the pockets of the Lucas Empire which helped eventually fund the prequels. And the card game from Decipher; that was a great game.
Fair enough. As I said earlier, if you liked the prequels, you're welcome to them. I'll take the intelligently written stories with continuity and characters over the explosions and CG puppets.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 01:06 PM

Fair enough. As I said earlier, if you liked the prequels, you're welcome to them. I'll take the intelligently written stories with continuity and characters over the explosions and CG puppets.

Well, some other posters have already picked at the continuity and the intelligence of the stories. Ultimately, the films will forever carry more weight than any of the expanded universe material.

The Star Wars movies are "summer popcorn flicks" with a little more depth hidden beneath. That's what they were designed to be; in fact, Star Wars was the very first.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 01:10 PM

Well, some other posters have already picked at the continuity and the intelligence of the stories. Ultimately, the films will forever carry more weight than any of the expanded universe material.

The Star Wars movies are "summer popcorn flicks" with a little more depth hidden beneath. That's what they were designed to be; in fact, Star Wars was the very first.
And the fact that Lucas contradicted himself?
And that's what they are, no doubt. Is it worng that I'd like some acting, decent (not Shakespeare, just sounds OK) dialogue and actual sets and effects to fit the "used future" idea he claimed was intended originally.
And Batman Begins, X-Men, Matrix, Spider-Man, Hulk shows that intelligence and cool action flick don't need to be mutually exclusive.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 01:26 PM

And the fact that Lucas contradicted himself?

No doubt. People are allowed to change their minds though.

And that's what they are, no doubt. Is it worng that I'd like some acting, decent (not Shakespeare, just sounds OK) dialogue and actual sets and effects to fit the "used future" idea he claimed was intended originally.

Age and innocence makes some of the performances in the orginal trilogy far better than they should be, in my opinion. Additionally, I even thought Ms. Portman gave a good performance in Sith.

The prequels are set in "a far more clivilized age."

And Batman Begins, X-Men, Matrix, Spider-Man, Hulk shows that intelligence and cool action flick don't need to be mutually exclusive.

Your Opinion. I like those movies to, but I don't think none of them probally had to live up the expectations you probally had for the Star Wars prequels which I think are just as good.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 01:34 PM

No doubt. People are allowed to change their minds though.

Age and innocence makes some of the performances in the orginal trilogy far better than they should be, in my opinion. Additionally, I even thought Ms. Portman gave a good performance in Sith.

The prequels are set in "a far more clivilized age."

Your Opinion. I like those movies to, but I don't think none of them probally had to live up the expectations you probally had for the Star Wars prequels which I think are just as good.

I'm 19 btw, so I only saw the OT much later. And the performances are good, better than Lucas' direction and dialogue deserve most likely.
"Change their mind", of course they can, but authors don't have the luxury of ignoring previous chapters because they have a neat idea for the next part, why should he get special treatment.
"Civilised" yes, but this stuff is still being USED, so why are there NO scuffs, scrapes or smudges on anything?
And you don't know comic fans do you? (Matrix was the same out of nowhere vibe the original trilogy had)

Jared

06-19-2005, 01:38 PM

Yeah, that is daft.

He turned his back on the Dark Side even if it meant dying himself.

He wouldn't succumb to it later on.

IIRC, Lucas actually liked the Dark Empire comic so much he gave copies to his staff as presents years ago. Considering that Luke had only *just* become a true Jedi by the end of ROTJ, the prospect of him being further tempted doesn't bother me. I don't think there should be some magical point of no return for the good guys where they can never be tempted again. The struggle against the Dark Side is never-ending. That said, I don't think Luke should have gone all-out and been like a real Sith Lord. I can't remember exactly how dark he did go. He didn't take a Sith name, but did he kill innocent people? It's not the direction I personally would have gone with a story having Palpatine return in some way, but it doesn't bug me the way that the Vong War does.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 01:46 PM

I'm 19 btw, so I only saw the OT much later. And the performances are good, better than Lucas' direction and dialogue deserve most likely.
"Change their mind", of course they can, but authors don't have the luxury of ignoring previous chapters because they have a neat idea for the next part, why should he get special treatment.

Sounds like you're a Lucas hater. Sorry. For better or worse, its his creation, his story and he owns it lock, stock and film. Stories go through many changes before they're done. You wouldn't want other people telling you want you could and could not do with something you created would you?

"Civilised" yes, but this stuff is still being USED, so why are there NO scuffs, scrapes or smudges on anything?

A lot of those Clone Troopers looked beat up in Sith.

And you don't know comic fans do you? (Matrix was the same out of nowhere vibe the original trilogy had)

I don't know where that came from, but I like to think I am. I run a comic shop. By admitting your age you can have no idea what vibe Star Wars had when it orginally hit, but I agree: Matrix was awesomely good, but even the most ardent prequel haters I know agree that the prequels are better than Reloaded and Revolutions.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 01:49 PM

IIRC, Lucas actually liked the Dark Empire comic so much he gave copies to his staff as presents years ago.

You definitely got to provide a source or link to back that up.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 01:51 PM

Sounds like you're a Lucas hater. Sorry. For better or worse, its his creation, his story and he owns it lock, stock and film. Stories go through many changes before they're done. You wouldn't want other people telling you want you could and could not do with something you created would you?

No, but I'd expect someone to point out what I did right and if I contradict myself. Doubt he MEANT to do that.
And American Graffiti and THX are really good movies, the original 3 are textbook of smart, fun blockbusters, but that doesn't mean I can't recognise his strengths are NOT dialogue, working with actors, or even storytelling.

A lot of those Clone Troopers looked beat up in Sith.
One reason Sith is somewhat better.

I don't know where that came from, but I like to think I am. I run a comic shop. By admitting your age you can have no idea what vibe Star Wars had when it orginally hit, but I agree: Matrix was awesomely good, but even the most ardent prequel haters I know agree that the prequels are better than Reloaded and Revolutions.
Came from the expectations idea.
I do know that no one expected SW to be that big, and I remember how unexpected Matrix was. And the reactions from said "prequel haters" are how I feel about Star Wars.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 02:03 PM

No, but I'd expect someone to point out what I did right and if I contradict myself. Doubt he MEANT to do that.
And American Graffiti and THX are really good movies, the original 3 are textbook of smart, fun blockbusters, but that doesn't mean I can't recognise his strengths are NOT dialogue, working with actors, or even storytelling.

Specific examples of these contradictions? Also, while I more than agree on dialog and actors not being a strength, I thought the plot of the prequels was brilliant. The Clone Wars a manipulation of the Sith, awesome.

One reason Sith is somewhat better.

Hopefully, you judge a movie's merit on more than just costumes and set pieces.

Came from the expectations idea.
I do know that no one expected SW to be that big, and I remember how unexpected Matrix was. And the reactions from said "prequel haters" are how I feel about Star Wars.

How is that exactly?

Gaz

06-19-2005, 02:11 PM

Specific examples of these contradictions? Also, while I more than agree on dialog and actors not being a strength, I thought the plot of the prequels was brilliant. The Clone Wars a manipulation of the Sith, awesome.

In the broad strokes, it's pretty good, but he had next to no plot in the first 2.
The "pilot" line in ANH, significant implications that the Empire was much older than a couple of decades, the R2 "never owned a droid thing", Leia's memories of her mother.

Hopefully, you judge a movie's merit on more than just costumes and set pieces.
Exactly what I hope from you. Because that's the best part of the prequels, despite the tone contradicting Lucas' professed intent with this series.

How is that exactly?
That the originals hit a tone that Lucas missed when he got the budget and control to do what lack of both prevented earlier. That stodgy dialogue and CGI took precedence over character and plot. That actors were an inconvenience to the director, rather than his greatest tool.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 02:31 PM

In the broad strokes, it's pretty good, but he had next to no plot in the first 2.
The "pilot" line in ANH, significant implications that the Empire was much older than a couple of decades, the R2 "never owned a droid thing", Leia's memories of her mother.

Dude, you should know that Obi-Wan has his own interpretations on things. That was more than evident in the orginals. From the earliest incarnations of the story that featured Anakin/Vader as Luke's father, Vader joined the dark side and helped establish Palpatine's Empire before Luke was born. Just how old do you think Luke is?

Leia's memory of her mother is a direct contradiction to events in Sith and requires a "no-prize" way to reconcile it. I do offer up again a point that was brought up earlier in this thread of Leia's force prowess(sp) drastically swinging up and down throughout the EU timeline.

Exactly what I hope from you. Because that's the best part of the prequels, despite the tone contradicting Lucas' professed intent with this series.

What's the best part of the prequels for you?

That the originals hit a tone that Lucas missed when he got the budget and control to do what lack of both prevented earlier. That stodgy dialogue and CGI took precedence over character and plot. That actors were an inconvenience to the director, rather than his greatest tool.

Fine argument except that I'd substitute technology over budget and he always had total control.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 02:37 PM

Dude, you should know that Obi-Wan has his own interpretations on things. That was more than evident in the orginals. From the earliest incarnations of the story that featured Anakin/Vader as Luke's father, Vader joined the dark side and helped establish Palpatine's Empire before Luke was born. Just how old do you think Luke is?

Leia's memory of her mother is a direct contradiction to events in Sith and requires a "no-prize" way to reconcile it. I do offer up again a point that was brought up earlier in this thread of Leia's force prowess(sp) drastically swinging up and down throughout the EU timeline.

It's never directly stated that the Jedi and Republic fell together, and they still don't if you go by the prequels. The Empire could've been established for years and the Jedi kept around but rendered slowly more impotent by Palpatine until Anakin.

What's the best part of the prequels for you?
The big explosions and fights. But that'snot enough to make a movie "good" to me.

Fine argument except that I'd substitute technology over budget and he always had total control.
I didn't say tech, as ILM invented motion control and a lot of other stuff for the movies. Tech never limited him.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 02:46 PM

I didn't say tech, as ILM invented motion control and a lot of other stuff for the movies. Tech never limited him.

I know you didn't say tech, I did. According to Lucas, the technology to make waht he wanted to show in the prequels didn't exist until he saw the T-Rex in Jurrasic Park.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 02:48 PM

I know you didn't say tech, I did. According to Lucas, the technology to make waht he wanted to show in the prequels didn't exist until he saw the T-Rex in Jurrasic Park.
That's the problem right there, the tail wagged the dog.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 02:53 PM

It's never directly stated that the Jedi and Republic fell together, and they still don't if you go by the prequels.

No, but its shown. Order 66 and the declaration of the Empire happen concurrently in the movie.

The Empire could've been established for years and the Jedi kept around but rendered slowly more impotent by Palpatine until Anakin.

Yea, that's what the Jedi were worried about in Sith except it wasn't called an Empire until after Anakin and the clones started offing Jedi after Grevious was killed.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 03:01 PM

That's the problem right there, the tail wagged the dog.

I'd call that the pessimist's way of describing limitations of a craft battling imagination.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 03:03 PM

I'd call that the pessimist's way of describing limitations of a craft battling imagination.
So, you've never seen the stop-motion tests Speilberg ran? Look almost identical to the finished CG.

Lurker

06-19-2005, 03:12 PM

So, you've never seen the stop-motion tests Speilberg ran? Look almost identical to the finished CG.

A link please?

Gaz

06-19-2005, 03:13 PM

A link please?
Unfotunately, not that I know of, but it was part of a making of piece, so I expect it's on the DVD...
(Feel free to deride me for this...)

Lurker

06-19-2005, 03:21 PM

I've seen nothing stop motion on either the star wars or Indiana Jones DVDs that equal the performance CG brings to the table. I don't think that's the point though.

I think Lucas' ideas on the prequels differed dramatically than what yours were and that stems from what you were exposed to in the expanded universe. Hence, the expanded universe became your Star Wars and you cannot except something that contradicts so many ideas from that universe which the prequels have done. Of course, Jar Jar is and always will be another story.

Gaz

06-19-2005, 03:23 PM