"Black Panther" Retcon File [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Loren

06-05-2005, 06:43 PM

There's been a lot of talk about the retcons taking place in Hudlin and Romita's Black Panther series. So I decided to assemble them all in one place.

Here's all the stuff I remember that made folks say "That's not the way it was before...", at least in terms of quantifiable details. Interpretative portrayals ("So-and-so wouldn't act that way") and premature conclusions ("Did T'Challa still study in the US?") I'll leave be. And I'll point out the things that have already been confirmed to be retcons. I'll even try to distinguish between retcons that insert details into old continuity, and those that directly contradict Panther history.

- Wakanda has now been technologically advanced for millenia, instead of experiencing rapid development after T'Challa took the throne. (retcon) (It also used to be that T'Challa spurred Wakanda's growth by trading vibranium, but I'm not certain to what extent that's been changed.)

- Whereas Wakanda has traditionally been landlocked, and located somewhere in the heart of equitorial Africa (as is befitting of a 'hidden' nation), it now appears to be located on the coast.

- T'Chaka now whooped Captain America in 1944, instead of the two tying in 1941. (contradiction retcon, though the date is possibly just an error)

- T'Challa now has a grown sister. (contradiction retcon)

- T'Challa now has a younger brother (unnamed, I believe) who was killed by Klaw during his father's assassination.

- Klaw is now a Belgian assassin instead of a Dutch scientist. He's motivated by revenge for his ancestor's death, not vibranium. (contradiction retcon)

- Klaw now killed T'Chaka at a European conference instead of on a Wakandan battlefield. (contradiction retcon)

- T'Challa now no longer immediately ascended to the throne following his father's death, but rather defeated his uncle for the title some years later. (contradiction retcon)

- The title of King and the title of Black Panther chieftan are being treated as one and the same, when previously they were two different positions occupied by the same man. (contradiction retcon)

- Ever since FF #53, it was exactly 10 years between T'Chaka's death and when T'Challa invited the FF to help fight Klaw. Klaw, in #1, said that it had been 15 years since he killed T'Chaka, sorta muddying the timeline.

- Klaw turned himself into a sonic creature at the end of FF #53. Since Klaw is not interested in vibranium and is still human, it's not clear what now must have happened during the BP/FF meeting as mentioned by Ross in #1.

- Since Klaw hasn't invaded Wakanda before now, he couldn't have abducted N'Jadaka, thus leaving Erik Killmonger without an origin.

- T'Challa's birth mother, N'Yami, appears to be alive. Previously, she died when T'Challa was very young (it was hinted she died during childbirth, but never actually said), and T'Chaka eventually married a South African Woman named Ramonda.

- Ross used to be a young lawyer working as a Special Attache for the State Department's Office of Protocol, who didn't know terribly much about T'Challa or Wakanda prior to their first meeting (which was several years after BP had joined the Avengers). Now he's an older bespectacled operative of a US intelligence agency (presumably part of the Department of Defense), who is the NSA's go-to expert on Wakanda long before T'Challa was an Avenger.

- The look and presence of the Dora Milaje. Previously, the order of the Dora Milaje had been long since done away with, until T'Challa brought it back sometime during his reign (I think about the time he got engaged to Monica Lynne). (retcon)

- Radioactive Man is being portrayed as a Russian named Igor instead of a Chinese scientist named Chen Lu.

- The Black Knight. He's a villain, but the villainous Black Knight died before the Black Panther's first appearance. He's also wearing the costume and carrying the sword of the heroic Black Knight. (insertion retcon, since it's been sorta confirmed that this is a third and previously unknown Black Knight)

- Rhino didn't fight the Hulk until after T'Challa joined the Avengers (I know this is incredibly minor, but I mention it only because at the moment it complicates trying to figure out when the story is set)

Any more?

Loren

cosmicspidey

06-05-2005, 07:18 PM

This is why I dropped the title. That, and the bad writing. And the poop joke had a lot to do with it, too.

Alan2099

06-05-2005, 07:48 PM

I refuse to accept that book as canon. Even Austen and Liefeld do better work than that series.

overcomebyfumes

06-05-2005, 07:58 PM

- Radioactive Man is being portrayed as a Russian named Igor instead of a Chinese scientist named Chen Lu.

I'm not currently reading the Black Panther, but I am reading Thunderbolts, and Chen Lu is currently Radioactive Man and Chinese, even to the point of being in touch with the Chinese embassy. Question: Is there then another Radioactive Man...

...or can they actually retcon something that is actively being NOT retconned in another book?

That would be an entirely new achievement in the art of reconning! My mind shudders. Gah!

.

Loren

06-05-2005, 11:04 PM

I'm not currently reading the Black Panther, but I am reading Thunderbolts, and Chen Lu is currently Radioactive Man and Chinese, even to the point of being in touch with the Chinese embassy. Question: Is there then another Radioactive Man...

...or can they actually retcon something that is actively being NOT retconned in another book?

That would be an entirely new achievement in the art of reconning! My mind shudders. Gah!

.

Well, here's Hudlin's pseudo-explanation from his own board:

Radioactive Man...in the Cold War, China was a big threat. That's why he was Chinese. Now they are our trading partner.

But the USSR was an imperialist power who had a lot of client states in Africa. So it's only natural they be represented in the group of characters symbolizing the invading forces of Africa over the years. Considering the USSR also had one of the most famous nuclear accidents of all time (Chernobyl) Radioactive Man is a natural.

I say 'pseudo' because while it tells us why he wanted RM to be Russian (which I doubt was anyone's concern), it tells us virtually nothing about whether 'Igor' is a new character or a retconned replacement, or what this means for Chen-Lu.

Loren

Sharcque

06-06-2005, 12:22 AM

ugh...now I wish I hadn't read this thread, b/c it pointed out so much more than I had realized. Brutal.......just brutal. :mad:

Ivan Isaacs

06-06-2005, 01:40 AM

I dropped the series after the latest issue because one issue was okay, the next was awful, the following was ok again, than one bad one again... I can spend my money on better series. Thank god I never tried Hudlin's MKSM run.
Not even my love for JRJR's art could get me to continue to buy that crappy title.

kartik

06-06-2005, 04:47 AM

I agree with all of the above posts about how awful it is that Hudlin has retconned so much. I loved the original series by Priest, and I should really be hating this book.
However, I love the art in this book, and also love the character of the Black Panther, and I have to admit, I am enjoying this book when reading it as a whole new story.
Anyone else?

Crimson

06-06-2005, 04:50 AM

comic_lover

06-06-2005, 07:25 AM

There's been a lot of talk about the retcons taking place in Hudlin and Romita's Black Panther series. So I decided to assemble them all in one place.

Here's all the stuff I remember that made folks say "That's not the way it was before...", at least in terms of quantifiable details. Interpretative portrayals ("So-and-so wouldn't act that way") and premature conclusions ("Did T'Challa still study in the US?") I'll leave be. And I'll point out the things that have already been confirmed to be retcons. I'll even try to distinguish between retcons that insert details into old continuity, and those that directly contradict Panther history.

- Wakanda has now been technologically advanced for millenia, instead of experiencing rapid development after T'Challa took the throne. (retcon) (It also used to be that T'Challa spurred Wakanda's growth by trading vibranium, but I'm not certain to what extent that's been changed.)

- T'Chaka now whooped Captain America in 1944, instead of the two tying in 1941. (contradiction retcon, though the date is possibly just an error)

- T'Challa now has a grown sister. (contradiction retcon)

- Klaw is now a Belgian assassin instead of a Dutch scientist. He's motivated by revenge for his ancestor's death, not vibranium. (contradiction retcon)

- Klaw now killed T'Chaka at a European conference instead of on a Wakandan battlefield. (contradiction retcon)

- T'Challa now no longer immediately ascended to the throne following his father's death, but rather defeated his uncle for the title some years later. (contradiction retcon)

- The title of King and the title of Black Panther chieftan are being treated as one and the same, when previously they were two different positions occupied by the same man. (contradiction retcon)

- Ever since FF #53, it was exactly 10 years between T'Chaka's death and when T'Challa invited the FF to help fight Klaw. Klaw, in #1, said that it had been 15 years since he killed T'Chaka, sorta muddying the timeline.

- Klaw turned himself into a sonic creature at the end of FF #53. Since Klaw is not interested in vibranium and is still human, it's not clear what now must have happened during the BP/FF meeting as mentioned by Ross in #1.

- Since Klaw hasn't invaded Wakanda before now, he couldn't have abducted N'Jadaka, thus leaving Erik Killmonger without an origin.

- T'Challa's birth mother, N'Yami, appears to be alive. Previously, she died when T'Challa was very young (it was hinted she died during childbirth, but never actually said), and T'Chaka eventually married a South African Woman named Ramonda.

- Ross used to be a young lawyer working as a Special Attache for the State Department's Office of Protocol, who didn't know terribly much about T'Challa or Wakanda prior to their first meeting (which was several years after BP had joined the Avengers). Now he's an older bespectacled operative of a US intelligence agency (presumably part of the Department of Defense), who is the NSA's go-to expert on Wakanda long before T'Challa was an Avenger.

- The look and presence of the Dora Milaje. Previously, the order of the Dora Milaje had been long since done away with, until T'Challa brought it back sometime during his reign (I think about the time he got engaged to Monica Lynne). (retcon)

- Radioactive Man is being portrayed as a Russian named Igor instead of a Chinese scientist named Chen Lu.

- The Black Knight. He's a villain, but the villainous Black Knight died before the Black Panther's first appearance. He's also wearing the costume and carrying the sword of the heroic Black Knight. (insertion retcon, since it's been sorta confirmed that this is a third and previously unknown Black Knight)

- Rhino didn't fight the Hulk until after T'Challa joined the Avengers (I know this is incredibly minor, but I mention it only because at the moment it complicates trying to figure out when the story is set)

Any more?

LorenI like this book,but yes,there are many,many,problems with it.Why all the retcons ? Good question.

BlackKnight

06-06-2005, 07:53 AM

There's been a lot of talk about the retcons taking place in Hudlin and Romita's Black Panther series. So I decided to assemble them all in one place.

Here's all the stuff I remember that made folks say "That's not the way it was before...", at least in terms of quantifiable details. Interpretative portrayals ("So-and-so wouldn't act that way") and premature conclusions ("Did T'Challa still study in the US?") I'll leave be. And I'll point out the things that have already been confirmed to be retcons. I'll even try to distinguish between retcons that insert details into old continuity, and those that directly contradict Panther history.

- Wakanda has now been technologically advanced for millenia, instead of experiencing rapid development after T'Challa took the throne. (retcon) (It also used to be that T'Challa spurred Wakanda's growth by trading vibranium, but I'm not certain to what extent that's been changed.)

- T'Chaka now whooped Captain America in 1944, instead of the two tying in 1941. (contradiction retcon, though the date is possibly just an error)

- T'Challa now has a grown sister. (contradiction retcon)

- Klaw is now a Belgian assassin instead of a Dutch scientist. He's motivated by revenge for his ancestor's death, not vibranium. (contradiction retcon)

- Klaw now killed T'Chaka at a European conference instead of on a Wakandan battlefield. (contradiction retcon)

- T'Challa now no longer immediately ascended to the throne following his father's death, but rather defeated his uncle for the title some years later. (contradiction retcon)

- The title of King and the title of Black Panther chieftan are being treated as one and the same, when previously they were two different positions occupied by the same man. (contradiction retcon)

- Ever since FF #53, it was exactly 10 years between T'Chaka's death and when T'Challa invited the FF to help fight Klaw. Klaw, in #1, said that it had been 15 years since he killed T'Chaka, sorta muddying the timeline.

- Klaw turned himself into a sonic creature at the end of FF #53. Since Klaw is not interested in vibranium and is still human, it's not clear what now must have happened during the BP/FF meeting as mentioned by Ross in #1.

- Since Klaw hasn't invaded Wakanda before now, he couldn't have abducted N'Jadaka, thus leaving Erik Killmonger without an origin.

- T'Challa's birth mother, N'Yami, appears to be alive. Previously, she died when T'Challa was very young (it was hinted she died during childbirth, but never actually said), and T'Chaka eventually married a South African Woman named Ramonda.

- Ross used to be a young lawyer working as a Special Attache for the State Department's Office of Protocol, who didn't know terribly much about T'Challa or Wakanda prior to their first meeting (which was several years after BP had joined the Avengers). Now he's an older bespectacled operative of a US intelligence agency (presumably part of the Department of Defense), who is the NSA's go-to expert on Wakanda long before T'Challa was an Avenger.

- The look and presence of the Dora Milaje. Previously, the order of the Dora Milaje had been long since done away with, until T'Challa brought it back sometime during his reign (I think about the time he got engaged to Monica Lynne). (retcon)

- Radioactive Man is being portrayed as a Russian named Igor instead of a Chinese scientist named Chen Lu.

- The Black Knight. He's a villain, but the villainous Black Knight died before the Black Panther's first appearance. He's also wearing the costume and carrying the sword of the heroic Black Knight. (insertion retcon, since it's been sorta confirmed that this is a third and previously unknown Black Knight)

- Rhino didn't fight the Hulk until after T'Challa joined the Avengers (I know this is incredibly minor, but I mention it only because at the moment it complicates trying to figure out when the story is set)

Any more?

Loren

Got one Question.

When was it confermed that the Black Knight was a new unknown third one that somehow got the ebony blade?

Shellhead

06-06-2005, 08:18 AM

I'm not obsessed with continuity, although I think that it adds to my enjoyment of comics. However, editors should only allow retcons when they are necessary to a great story. Hudlin is just wasting our time. I hope that a future Black Panther writer will find an amusing way to dimiss this entire Hudlin mess, the same way Priest did with Jack Kirby's embarrassing and short-lived Black Panther series that followed Don McGregor's excellent run in Jungle Action.

overcomebyfumes

06-06-2005, 08:24 AM

[b]Radioactive Man...in the Cold War, China was a big threat. That's why he was Chinese. Now they are our trading partner.

But the USSR was an imperialist power who had a lot of client states in Africa. So it's only natural they be represented in the group of characters symbolizing the invading forces of Africa over the years. Considering the USSR also had one of the most famous nuclear accidents of all time (Chernobyl) Radioactive Man is a natural.

The faulty logic is stunning. And if he wanted a Russian, the already is a wide range of Russian characters to pick from. Why screw up the continuity? Makes no sense. Gah.

.

jackalope

06-06-2005, 08:57 AM

Last night I was over at Reggie Hudlin's website, checking out the forum. It was really shocking. I found several posts from Hudlin himself in which he states rather explicitly that the only reasons people care about the continuinity issues is that they are racist and just hate a strong black character. He won't even considered the fact that maybe some people actually have a sense of reverence for the stuff that Kirby and everyone who followed Kirby did. It's all just a smokescreen to hide how "racist" we are for not wanting Radioactive Man to be Russian in one book, and Chinese in every other.

He says that Radioactive Man should be Russian because China is now one of our trading partners....but so is Russia! And that changing relationship between China and the US is reflected in the current, in continuity, Thuderbolts appearance of the character, wherein he is on loan from the Beijing Embassy in a PR stunt to improve Chinese-American relationships. And Hudlin claims I'm "racist" because I like Fabian Niceza's take on the character, the take that respects RM's history, more than his unnecessary and poorly reasoned retcon.

So, that's it, I'm officially boycotting all of Reggie Hudlin's comics. That'll hurt, because I don't want a gap in my MK Spider-Man collection, but really, screw him. He has no concept of the fact that he is writing stories in a shared universe, and all of his excuses for why he's trashing the hard work of the dozens of writers and artists who came before him are just that: excuses. There is no reason behind his changes, it's just the result of an arrogant hack with no respect for the medium he's working in, and the gall to accuse those who point this out of racism. I hope others will join me in boycotting him, and send him back to Hollywood to make more crap like House Party.

Loren

06-06-2005, 09:08 AM

Got one Question.

When was it confermed that the Black Knight was a new unknown third one that somehow got the ebony blade?

Hudlin (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=507.0) on the Black Knight:

As for the Black Knight, I don't get how the continuity obsessed don't know there has been several Black Knights over the years. That the Black Knight is a TITLE. Meaning, it can be given to people.

I'm taking that to mean that this is a third guy. Assuming that this is set between FF #53 and when BP joined the Avengers, there is a gap when there was no Black Knight, so it could work.

It doesn't make the 'secret cabal of the Catholic Church' aspect any more tolerable, but it certainly fits better than whatever's happened with Radioactive Man.

Loren

BlackKnight

06-06-2005, 09:19 AM

Hudlin (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=507.0) on the Black Knight:

As for the Black Knight, I don't get how the continuity obsessed don't know there has been several Black Knights over the years. That the Black Knight is a TITLE. Meaning, it can be given to people.

I'm taking that to mean that this is a third guy. Assuming that this is set between FF #53 and when BP joined the Avengers, there is a gap when there was no Black Knight, so it could work.

It doesn't make the 'secret cabal of the Catholic Church' aspect any more tolerable, but it certainly fits better than whatever's happened with Radioactive Man.

Loren

Wow Hudlin is a really angry man... He really needs to hop down off that high horse of his...

Thanks for the info Loren, Hudlin just made it obvoius to me that he has no clue about the MU and really just picked charaters and rewrote them for his comic however he felt and now is whining and accusing readers of racism because they are shooting holes in his poor writing.

comic_lover

06-06-2005, 09:28 AM

The faulty logic is stunning. And if he wanted a Russian, the already is a wide range of Russian characters to pick from. Why screw up the continuity? Makes no sense. Gah.

.Tell me about it.The Radioactive Man,to me,is not nor will he ever be Russian.

DDM

06-06-2005, 09:29 AM

comic_lover

06-06-2005, 09:33 AM

comic_lover

06-06-2005, 09:37 AM

jackalope

06-06-2005, 09:38 AM

This is one good reason not to put Hollyweird people on the Marvel Comics payroll. You just don't ever insult your readers by calling ad hominem attacks when they point out flaws in his stories.

Where are editors? The editors should be not allowing most of his Black Panther stories passed the concept stage, or reign his ego in to explain continuity & comic book writing does not take place in a vacuum.
Exactly. I've also seen Hudlin and his supporters use the "It doesn't matter to new readers, and we're trying to get new readers." argument. That leaves me wondering why no-one at Marvel has told him that while new readers are great, you need the OLD readers to, because we - the long term, devoted Marvel Zombies, the True Believers - keep the company afloat. Gaining new readers at the cost of alienating old readers is NOT an effective strategy. Editorial has really dropped the ball on this, they see Hollywood and they roll over like idiots.

Which isn't to say the Hollywood writers are bad. Joss Whedon has done a fine job of respecting continuity, and when he needed villains for specific purposes, rather than cram exsisting characters into ill-fitting boxes, he's made up new characters! Gee! Whodathunkit? Or look at Kevin Smith, sure he can't finish his damn books (DAMN YOU KEVIN SMITH!!! Shakes fist at sky!), but the man respects his continuity. JMS has also done a good job of reinventing Spider-Man without stomping on his history. But Hudlin...sorry, he's struuck out. Time to pull him from the game.

overcomebyfumes

06-06-2005, 09:41 AM

Where are editors? The editors should be not allowing most of his Black Panther stories passed the concept stage, or reign his ego in to explain continuity & comic book writing does not take place in a vacuum.

Exactly. The more I think about this, the more I realize Hudlin isn't at fault here - he just doesn't know any better. The one sign of true incompetance is not being able to understand that you are doing anything wrong.

Marvel pays editors to prevent exactly this sort of thing. Maybe instead of trying to argue with Hudlin on his website, we should be writing the editor of the book and asking him why he's not saying no to obviously bad ideas. Why he's not doing his job, basically.

.

comic_lover

06-06-2005, 09:43 AM

But Hudlin...sorry, he's struuck out. Time to pull him from the game.Yeowch. :D

Valen

06-06-2005, 09:44 AM

Does anyone have a link to his website? I am always up for laughing at a biggot.

Shellhead

06-06-2005, 09:48 AM

Hudlin (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=507.0) on the Black Knight:

As for the Black Knight, I don't get how the continuity obsessed don't know there has been several Black Knights over the years. That the Black Knight is a TITLE. Meaning, it can be given to people.

I'm taking that to mean that this is a third guy. Assuming that this is set between FF #53 and when BP joined the Avengers, there is a gap when there was no Black Knight, so it could work.

It doesn't make the 'secret cabal of the Catholic Church' aspect any more tolerable, but it certainly fits better than whatever's happened with Radioactive Man.

Loren

There was an easy way for Hudlin to have written this title that wouldn't have required him to do research to avoid all these continuity problems. He could have created new characters! But he didn't, because he is truly a lazy hack writer. Hell, he could have even done lazy, uncreative new characters, by making minor variations on existing characters... like Isotope Man instead of Radioactive Man, or Dark and Stormy Knight instead of Black Knight. But that was just too much trouble, Hudlin had to show a wanton lack of respect for every writer before him, including Priest, McGregor and even Stan Lee. Does Hudlin think that his story is so good that it's worth tossing out years of fine contributions from those previous writers? If so, he's delusional.

DDM

06-06-2005, 09:50 AM

Exactly. I've also seen Hudlin and his supporters use the "It doesn't matter to new readers, and we're trying to get new readers." argument. That leaves me wondering why no-one at Marvel has told him that while new readers are great, you need the OLD readers to, because we - the long term, devoted Marvel Zombies, the True Believers - keep the company afloat. Gaining new readers at the cost of alienating old readers is NOT an effective strategy. Editorial has really dropped the ball on this, they see Hollywood and they roll over like idiots.

Which isn't to say the Hollywood writers are bad. Joss Whedon has done a fine job of respecting continuity, and when he needed villains for specific purposes, rather than cram exsisting characters into ill-fitting boxes, he's made up new characters! Gee! Whodathunkit? Or look at Kevin Smith, sure he can't finish his damn books (DAMN YOU KEVIN SMITH!!! Shakes fist at sky!), but the man respects his continuity. JMS has also done a good job of reinventing Spider-Man without stomping on his history. But Hudlin...sorry, he's struuck out. Time to pull him from the game.

In Hollywood, people are sychophants. Hudlin is used to getting his way even when he is wrong. In Hollywood, this may work. But never in comic books. Hudlin will pay a heavy price when fans backlash against his insane ad hominem attacks. You just never, under any circumstances, insult your readers. The fact he calls his critics "racist" is a symptom how out of touch Hollywood is with mainstream America. Hudlin is foolish to get the wrath of comic book fan base backlash against him. Marvel is foolish for hiring this guy. Where are the editors???

I'm beiginning to think Marvel editors don't edit books anymore. They are too busy being sychophants to Hollywood people...

Shellhead

06-06-2005, 09:53 AM

I can't even understand Hudlin's racism accusation. Does he think that only white people buy Black Panther? He's wrong, and he's racist for assuming that.

DDM

06-06-2005, 09:56 AM

Exactly. The more I think about this, the more I realize Hudlin isn't at fault here - he just doesn't know any better. The one sign of true incompetance is not being able to understand that you are doing anything wrong.

Marvel pays editors to prevent exactly this sort of thing. Maybe instead of trying to argue with Hudlin on his website, we should be writing the editor of the book and asking him why he's not saying no to obviously bad ideas. Why he's not doing his job, basically.

.

The Marvel editors are largely responsible. Joe Quesada's Marvel is one reason why most of his editors are asleep at the switch. Heck, Mike Marts, who edited X-Treme X-Men at one point, did not know Sage is Tessa. I informed him that Sage is not a new character since she has been around since Uncanny X-Men #132 (1980).

Send your letters, but Quesada's Marvel is not open to constructive criticism.

Valen

06-06-2005, 09:56 AM

I can't even understand Hudlin's racism accusation. Does he think that only white people buy Black Panther? He's wrong, and he's racist for assuming that.

He uses it the same way Barry Bonds calls his steroid accusers racist. It is an attempt to take the issue away from the true problem (Bad writing or steroids) and shift blame to the critics.

comic_lover

06-06-2005, 10:02 AM

He uses it the same way Barry Bonds calls his steroid accusers racist. It is an attempt to take the issue away from the true problem (Bad writing or steroids) and shift blame to the critics.Yep,when you have a point,people who are scared frequently change the subject by playing the " race card. " Frequently It doesn't work.

jackalope

06-06-2005, 10:02 AM

Yeowch. :D
Yeah, maybe I'm being a bit unfair. Black Panther and Marvel Knights Super-Man (er, wait, MK Spider-Man, I almost forgot whose comic it was, since Spidey has been reduced to a guest star in his own comic) only constitutes two strikes. So I guess he has to ruin another series before he's truly struck out.

But frankly, I'd rather he not be given the chance.

Does anyone have a link to his website? I am always up for laughing at a biggot.
It's almost impossible to find. Google can't find it, and I've forgotten how I found it last night. It should be findable by googling "hudlin entertainment", but it's not.

EDIT: Found it. Here's the link: Hudlin Entertainment (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/)

And here's an example of what an ass Hudlin is:
While I hate to resort to cliche, the book is simply "too black, too strong" for some people. Thank God they are not the majority!

From what I've read, the complaints tend to center around the political tone of the book. I say that to mean, any who whines about continuity the way they do must be missing the main point of the book. The more they detail their complaints, it comes down to me besmirching the good name of the current administration, or trying to make the hero of the book too heroic.

Anthony

06-06-2005, 10:30 AM

So wait, he doesn't want the hero to be too heroic? What the hell does that mean? Is it wrong for me to want the panther acting like he did when Priest was writing him?

jackalope

06-06-2005, 10:33 AM

So wait, he doesn't want the hero to be too heroic? What the hell does that mean? Is it wrong for me to want the panther acting like he did when Priest was writing him?
No, he's saying that older fans complaining about continuity don't want Black Panther to be "too heroic", with the implicit assumption that those fans don't want BP to be "too heroic" because they are racist and can't stand a strong black character.

Sharcque

06-06-2005, 10:47 AM

I went to hit site, and left a question about what this does to Secret Wars, FF & Avengers continuity (to name a few)----- I'll let you guys know what he says.

The Shadow

06-06-2005, 11:00 AM

Sharcque

06-06-2005, 11:35 AM

Since he's now writing Spider-Man, I also asked Hudlin to explain the Venom symbiote now.....b/c if Klaw was never in Secret War.....well, you get the idea.

mushroom2703

06-06-2005, 11:40 AM

Um.....did he really make the radioactive man russian? While he's starring in a book? Say it ain't so....:(

Anthony

06-06-2005, 11:42 AM

No, he's saying that older fans complaining about continuity don't want Black Panther to be "too heroic", with the implicit assumption that those fans don't want BP to be "too heroic" because they are racist and can't stand a strong black character.

And he wasn't before? Jesus, did he read Priest's Panther? I want a Wakanda, and by extension a Panther, that doesn't use the cure for cancer as a bargaining chip for intelligence. One that kicked your ass, made you like it and just was so far ahead of everybody else that no one could mess with him.

jackalope

06-06-2005, 11:57 AM

Please post a link to some of these!!!!!!!
Here is where he says any continuinity complaints are politically/racially motivated:
any who whines about continuity the way they do must be missing the main point of the book... (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=441.msg4368#msg4368)

Here he attacks someone who suggested (once, and politely) that if he wanted to do a total reboot, he should have considered doing Ultimate Black Panther:
"...Your obsession over which publishing brand the book is under makes me think you just don't care for my version of The Black Panther very much, because when I get a comic book that I like I could care less whether it is in "616" or MK or Ulimate or Marvel or DC or Dark Horse or Random House..." (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=265.msg2703#msg2703)

See, here he assumes because he doesn't give a crap about continuity, then anyone who does is "obsessed" and making up excuses to not like his take on Black Panther. In the other post, he theorizes that these continuity complaints are politically/racially motivated. I'd love to see his explanation for why black fan's of Priest's run are upset over continuity flaws. They must be self-hating Uncle Toms or something, I guess.

This comment also goes a long ways towards explaining why Super-Man is starring in MK Spider-Man. Reggie doesn't care what company he's working for, or what comic he's on, he's going to write the characters he likes. And if you don't like it, you're just a hater who hates on the black man.

Look around the site, you'll find more examples of him being an ass.

Sharcque

06-06-2005, 12:00 PM

On his board, he does like to say that anyone that doesn't like his book, or have issues with continuity, say so because of their "political views". Take that for what you will....

jackalope

06-06-2005, 12:01 PM

And he wasn't before? Jesus, did he read Priest's Panther? I want a Wakanda, and by extension a Panther, that doesn't use the cure for cancer as a bargaining chip for intelligence. One that kicked your ass, made you like it and just was so far ahead of everybody else that no one could mess with him.
You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. Because that scene really bugged me too. The BP is a hero, and yet he's holding out with the cure for cancer? How many millions of people are dying slow, painful deaths because of that? I really don't think this series makes BP look "too heroic". Quite the opposite, it makes him look like a xenophobic jerk.

Shellhead

06-06-2005, 12:05 PM

Look around the site, you'll find more examples of him being an ass.

I started and then stopped with the slide show of Hudlin, Hudlin, and guess what, more Hudlin. The desperate self-promotion was making me ill and I had to leave.

Ivan Isaacs

06-06-2005, 12:07 PM

Why do (black) writers always have to play the racist/color card? Isn't Black Panther a suüerhero first and THEN a black man?
And if I want a strong black character I just have to look at Jefferson Pierce aka Black Lightning or Blade.
If the writing is bad IMO - it is bad IMO and not because the main character is white, black, yellow or green.

Gaining new readers at the cost of alienating old readers is NOT an effective strategy.

If you have Wolverine AND Spider-Man on the book and the writer is namned Bendis, then yes, it is an effective strategy. :D
Or if your name is Garth Ennis and you are writing a psychopath with a lot of guns.

But that's just why I love Young Avengers so much. Heinberg is creating something new and fresh while satisfying the old fans. That's the right way to do and not some "My way is the only way - screw continuity".

EDIT: Who's Spiderman? On his site they cannot even write the comic book he's working on right... geez!

jackalope

06-06-2005, 01:25 PM

If you have Wolverine AND Spider-Man on the book and the writer is namned Bendis, then yes, it is an effective strategy. :D
Or if your name is Garth Ennis and you are writing a psychopath with a lot of guns.

Well, there you have two different things. Bendis shook up the Avengers a bunch, but he didn't screw around with continuity very much. He also got me (an old reader) to start reading Avengers again. Ennis on the other is doing a total reboot - but it's under the MAX line, and it has been out-of-continuity from the start. It, like Supreme Power, clearly takes place in an alternate dimension (Earth 237 or whatever).

(Also, I think a lot of people like having Punisher out of the mainstream MU. He never really fit.)

Hudlin is doing a total rebbot in an alternate universe, but just won't admit it. Funnily enough, he quoted Tom Breveport saying there all sorts of "alternate reality stories" as a defense for his total obliviousness to continuity. Which means Hudlin is essentially saying "This is not the real Black Panther, or the Ultimate Black Panther. This is Earth 435 Black Panther, and as soon as I'm done writing this series, you can expect it to be about as valuable as Spider-Man: Chapter One, because the next writer who comes along is going to ignore everything I've done, and fanboys will let each other know to skip the Hudlin BP as it's out-of-continuity . So shut up and enjoy this meaningless Elseworlds version of BP."

The Shadow

06-06-2005, 03:53 PM

On his board, he does like to say that anyone that doesn't like his book, or have issues with continuity, say so because of their "political views".
What a steaming pile of cow dung!

I didn't know the guy was black until this thread! And I don't care if a character is black, white, yellow, orange or green as long as it's well written! Black Panther can and SHOULD be a strong character (I've never read Priest's stories so I don't know how he wrote him) because the guys a King and a member of Earth's Mightiest Heroes! My political views are my own and don't effect my enjoyment of comics. If they did the Ultimates might not be on my read list.

I don't like his book because I think he's spitting in the faces of those that have worked on the characters before him. If he wanted a Russian villain he should have used some of his imagination and CREATED one instead of altering an existing one (currently being used!) at his whim.

I predict a short run on this title and a shorter career Hudlin

lonewolf23k

06-06-2005, 04:02 PM

I refuse to accept that book as canon. Even Austen and Liefeld do better work than that series.

Agreed. We should start a letter-writing campaign telling Marvel's editors not to keep that mini-series as canon...

djsully3

06-06-2005, 04:05 PM

I don't like his book because I think he's spitting in the faces of those that have worked on the characters before him. If he wanted a Russian villain he should have used some of his imagination and CREATED one instead of altering an existing one (currently being used!) at his whim.

I predict a short run on this title and a shorter career Hudlin

I totally agree. Especially with the last comment. After Joe Q's statement on the the Philly Newsarama reports ("Asked about feedback on the early issues of Black Panther, Quesada said that it’s been similar to other Marvel series, no less positive, and no more negative."), I'm pretty sure this series is going down fast -- he doesn't sound very excited about things anymore.

And as far as I can tell, BP is losing readers a lot faster than it's gaining them. Same for MK Spidey.

Shellhead

06-06-2005, 04:18 PM

What a steaming pile of cow dung!

I didn't know the guy was black until this thread! And I don't care if a character is black, white, yellow, orange or green as long as it's well written! Black Panther can and SHOULD be a strong character (I've never read Priest's stories so I don't know how he wrote him) because the guys a King and a member of Earth's Mightiest Heroes! My political views are my own and don't effect my enjoyment of comics. If they did the Ultimates might not be on my read list.

I don't like his book because I think he's spitting in the faces of those that have worked on the characters before him. If he wanted a Russian villain he should have used some of his imagination and CREATED one instead of altering an existing one (currently being used!) at his whim.

I predict a short run on this title and a shorter career Hudlin

Unfortunately, the damage done in this title will spread, as Black Panther will be crossing over with the X-Men.

Jack Kirby and Stan Lee created the Black Panther in the 60's as a strong character, with T'challa practically soloing the FF in their first encounter. He was shown to be brilliant, dignified and yet very physical.

Don McGregor wrote the excellent Panther Rage storyline in Jungle Actionin the 70's, and his version of Black Panther was deep, brooding, cautious and still extremely athletic, although somewhat hesitant to take action until a crisis arose.

Kirby came back and did a new and short-lived Black Panther series in 1976-77, which featured some disappointing artwork and some freakishly bizarre characters and storylines. This portrayal of Black Panther was so manic and goofy that it was re-introduced as a brain-damaged future version of Black Panther in Priest's run.

Christopher Priest did the definitive modern Black Panther title. Like most previous versions, he showed T'Challa to be a proud, dignified, and brilliant individual with extreme athletic prowess. The unique twist that he added was Black Panther was also master of highly complex and machiavellian scheming and preparation, allowing Priest to tell some amazing stories with jaw-dropping plot twists.

These are some tough acts to follow, but Hudlin has found an unusual solution: ignore almost everything and just make some crap up, picking and choosing whatever elements and then forcing them to work with a reckless disregard for continuity.

The Shadow

06-06-2005, 04:34 PM

Hudlin has found an unusual solution: ignore almost everything and just make some crap up, picking and choosing whatever elements and then forcing them to work with a reckless disregard for continuity.
I'm not a continuity junkie... if a GREAT story can be told by tweaking or ignoring certain aspects of it I'm fine with that... but this ISN'T the BP I've read for over 20 years.

I was really looking forward to this series originally. Now I'm looking forward to its cancellation.

Gaz

06-06-2005, 04:50 PM

It's not even the Wakanda stuff that bugs me, his mother's alive? Fine, you're doing an origin flashback/reboot, so tweaking little things like that is your perogative, but going out of your way to disrespect a colleague, by trying to completely change a character he's trying to alter drastically anyway? That's not not just bad writing, or fanboy nitpicking, it's highly unprofessional.

overcomebyfumes

06-06-2005, 08:15 PM

It amazes me that I haven't even read this and I'm really annoyed at what this guy's being allowed to do.

Who's listed in the credits as editor? Maybe we should get a petition or an eMail campaign going or something. Fight the power!

.

Loren

06-06-2005, 10:50 PM

Here is where he says any continuinity complaints are politically/racially motivated:
any who whines about continuity the way they do must be missing the main point of the book... (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=441.msg4368#msg4368)

To save folks the trouble of finding that quote on that page:

Now let's deal with what the false issue that folks on your board are hung up on - continuity. I say false because I think your real issue is the political tone of the book, but let's deal with what you say is the issue.

It's from this post (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=507.msg4406#msg4406), which I responded to at the bottom of the page.

Loren

Sharcque

06-07-2005, 12:20 AM

I've been going back & forth on his site all day, and while he has yet to acknowledge me, pretty much all others that are there defending him are saying, "Just shut-up, read it, & like it!!! Because it's good".

Hombre

06-07-2005, 08:14 AM

Kirby came back and did a new and short-lived Black Panther series in 1976-77, which featured some disappointing artwork and some freakishly bizarre characters and storylines. This portrayal of Black Panther was so manic and goofy that it was re-introduced as a brain-damaged future version of Black Panther in Priest's run.

I have, it goes without saying, the utmost respect for your p.o.v.. But what I have read of that series struck me as goofy and retro only on the surface, but actually subtly complex and artistically ambitious. I suspect Priest intended more to pay homage to the symbolic poetry of Kirby's Panther than to sort it out for present readers...

DDM

06-07-2005, 09:23 AM

I've never thought it possible. But Hudlin's out of control ego is worse than John Byrne's hubris. Heck Hudlin's bloated sense of self makes John Byrne look like a kitty cat. Hudlin's Black Panther will not last because the writer is not sticking with established continuity & the editor is just being a pansy synchophant not doing his job reigning in Hudlin's absurd stories.

kartik

06-07-2005, 11:22 AM

Reading the above links to Hudlins forums didnt show me what I had expected. The posts there are very pro Hudlin (obviously) but the posts here are a bit too anti Hudlin.
I disagree with his use of non-wakandan characters e.g. Radioactive Man, Knight,
but after going through that forum a bit, I kinda understand what he's saying about changing the characters history a bit. If Priest was allowed to do it and add new characters out of the blue (Dora Milage, White Wolf) whats to stop the editors allowing him to do the same?
The other complaints about his book (political and a few "reverse-racist" issues) never bothered me. His slightly anti-US stance is no different from Millar, and the few places where i've read about his book being reverse-racist are just nitpicking not bothering to read the stories properly.
I gotta say again, that continuity aside, the new BP book is quite an enjoyable read.

Shellhead

06-07-2005, 11:35 AM

I paged through Black Panther a while back, when this new series started. When I saw Wakandan tribesmen repelling foreign invaders centuries ago while telling each other to "stay cool", I snickered at the incongruity and decided to pass on this title. Everything that I've heard since then just confirms my decision.

jackalope

06-07-2005, 12:08 PM

I disagree with his use of non-wakandan characters e.g. Radioactive Man, Knight, but after going through that forum a bit, I kinda understand what he's saying about changing the characters history a bit. If Priest was allowed to do it and add new characters out of the blue (Dora Milage, White Wolf) whats to stop the editors allowing him to do the same?
There's an essential difference between an insertion retcon and a contradiction retcon.

In Fantastic Four #52 (currently available in Essential Fantastic Four #3), Jack Kirby and Stan Lee introduced Black Panther in a two part story that gave an outline of his origin and established certain facts about the character.

Decades later, Christopher Priest "revamped" the character by taking him back to his roots in this first appearance. Priest added many new elements as well, but these were not contradictions of the things already established. It's like Preist said "In addition to what Jack and Stan told you about Black Panther, there's also all this other stuff they never mentioned."

Hudlin on the otherhand is changing established elements, or seting up new elements that contradict rather than add to the existing mythos of the Black Panther. Essentially, Hudlin is saying "What Jack and Stan told you about Black Panther was all wrong, and this is what really happened." Then he's taking it a step further and saying anyone who is offended by his disrespect for the established character of Black Panther is either a closet racist or Bush supporter. Which makes him a world class ass.

Cybak

06-07-2005, 12:12 PM

I found several posts from Hudlin himself in which he states rather explicitly that the only reasons people care about the continuinity issues is that they are racist and just hate a strong black character.

Hudlin has a very tenuous grasp of reality. I think for the most part the same people that are upset with the continuity issues are fans of Priest's run. Alot of the retcons, omissions and faulty additions are Hudlin screwing with Priest's run, in some instances completely ignoring things. Re: Everett K. Ross and Black Panther's sister??? These racists as Hudlin indirectly calls them are fans of Christopher Priest's run. So let me see these racists hate a strong black character, but are loyal fans of AFRICAN-AMERICAN Christopher Priest's Black Panther. Hudlin is what's wrong with comic-books and people today.

Anthony

06-07-2005, 12:29 PM

Hudlin has a very tenuous grasp of reality. I think for the most part the same people that are upset with the continuity issues are fans of Priest's run. Alot of the retcons, omissions and faulty additions are Hudlin screwing with Priest's run, in some instances completely ignoring things. Re: Everett K. Ross and Black Panther's sister??? These racists as Hudlin indirectly calls them are fans of Christopher Priest's run. So let me see these racists hate a strong black character, but are loyal fans of AFRICAN-AMERICAN Christopher Priest's Black Panther. Hudlin is what's wrong with comic-books and people today.

I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. How can one enjoy the Panther that Priest displayed to us and still hate a strong black character? Panther was one of the strongest characters in comics during Priest's run. His Wakanda was so technologically advanced that they could disrupt Mephisto when on Earth's plane. Panther was so adept at keeping secrets that Dr. Doom could never figure out what Wakanda's military might was without engaging him in war. Which Doom didn't want to do. Doom actually respected T'Challa during Priest's run. Priest established that Panther was above superheroism, he was a full out King and not subject to the same rules or standards that other heroes have to deal with.

I don't like Hudlin's run because he has Panther acting like a self-absorbed idiot. I know it's a throwaway line, but I can't get past Panther knowingly and willingly keeping the cure for cancer secret. He already has the ultimate bargaining chip in Vibranium. Politically, they always set the agenda when they enter the room and his country rarely need anything from anybody. It's a sad day when a hero starts acting like a ceo of a corrupt corporation.

djsully3

06-07-2005, 12:51 PM

Maybe THIS Black Panther was created by Wanda and everything will go back to normal after House of M. :D

jackalope

06-07-2005, 01:37 PM

Maybe THIS Black Panther was created by Wanda and everything will go back to normal after House of M. :D
DING DING DING! I think we have a winner solution. This is the world T'Challa wishes he lived in, where is father wasn't killed in his own court by a man he mistakenly trusted and let in his house, and where Wakanda has ALWAYS been one of the greatest nations of the world. Or something like that.

hbkabdul

06-07-2005, 02:00 PM

Ivan Isaacs

06-07-2005, 02:03 PM

I dropped it because I found the writing awful/boring - not because of continuity issues. I like nearly everything Chuck Austen wrote... and boy did he a bad job on continuity. :D

Shellhead

06-07-2005, 02:14 PM

i havent heard anyone here say they quit reading the book because it was boring or because they didnt like it.

Stop skimming and read more carefully, you seem to be conveniently ignoring some of the variety to the criticism here. Like I said before, I gave up when I saw fifth century spearmen using modern slang. That's not a continuity issue, that's a problem with the writer being lazy.

Gaz

06-07-2005, 02:16 PM

I dropped it because I found the writing awful/boring - not because of continuity issues. I like nearly everything Chuck Austen wrote... and boy did he a bad job on continuity. :D
I gave up on Chuck when he threw a temper tantrum and made it nigh impossible for anyone to use the two characters he did RIGHT in X-Men (Nocturne and Juggernaut, power level aside)

jackalope

06-07-2005, 02:30 PM

Look i dont like all the retcons but hell a good story is a good story. i havent heard anyone here say they quit reading the book because it was boring or because they didnt like it.
I found a lot of it very confusing. I can't tell when it's set, for example the Secretary of State character seems to be Condi Rice, but Hudlin denies this, which makes it hard to tell if it's set in the present, or the past, and when different scenes are taking place. Also, some of Hudlin's political biases are ridiculously heavy-handed. I'm an atheist and not a fan of the Catholic Church, but even I find the idea of a Vatican that headquarters supervillains a bit silly. I'd be downright offended if I was remotely Catholic.

everyone is bashing the book because of the contradiction and while i hate that as much as everyone else here im enjoying the series and the potrayal of everyone from black panter to rhino enough to stick with it because it is a genuinely exciting read. "im not going to read this book because this isnt what happened in issue 44 of somebody else's title" is the most ridiculous thing ive heard.
Clearly you don't hate it as much as everyone else, or you would understand why were upset. You see, to me, reading Black Panther is like watching an episode of the X-Files in which Mulder investigates the mysterious abduction of his brother, or seeing a James Bond movie where James lives in New York and works for the CIA, etc. It would be entertaining if it weren't all wrong.

yea the changes are major but shouldnt a story be based on its entertainment value more than anything else?
No. For example, Marvel should never publish a Spider-Man story where Spider-Man is suddenly a guy name Quentin Jones living in Chicago, no matter how entertaining the story is. Continuity is a core element in comics, and particularly in Marvel Comics. The Marvel Universe was concieved of as a shared universe from the beginning, and new writers have an obligation to respect what has come before them, unless editorial tells them to change things. No one told Hudlin to change things (because nothing needed changing), he just did it, and no one is stopping him.

besides i dont see anyone jumping down JMS's throat after he basically did the same thing with Strange.
1. Strange was announced as a reboot.
2. JMS never denied he was doing a reboot.
3. The reboot was set-up in Amazing Spider-Man.
4. The jury is still out on Strange I think.

Anthony

06-07-2005, 02:59 PM

Look i dont like all the retcons but hell a good story is a good story. i havent heard anyone here say they quit reading the book because it was boring or because they didnt like it. everyone is bashing the book because of the contradiction and while i hate that as much as everyone else here im enjoying the series and the potrayal of everyone from black panter to rhino enough to stick with it because it is a genuinely exciting read. "im not going to read this book because this isnt what happened in issue 44 of somebody else's title" is the most ridiculous thing ive heard. yea the changes are major but shouldnt a story be based on its entertainment value more than anything else? besides i dont see anyone jumping down JMS's throat after he basically did the same thing with Strange.

Did you read a single thing that I wrote? My complaints have barely touched on the continuity problems of the book. I could go that route, if I so chose, but I find the way he's portraying Panther to be ill-concieved and shoddy at best. To me, that's the worst crime here. I was one of the first people on this board talking about how, I'm trying out this book just of Hudlin's take on the character. Hudlin's take on a hero, is not my cup o' tea it seems. A hero that has access to the cure for cancer* and doesn't use it, is not a hero.

The thing that I think is going on is that heroes in general are not acting as such. Over in DC, we have every single hero, except for one, ignoring a fellow hero and said hero getting murdered because of it, in spite of overwhelming evidence that someone's out to get him. The fact of the matter is that the tone of comics, right now, has pissed off a lot of old fans. Hudlin's just one of the many people perpetuating that tone. What's the sense of gaining new fans if the old ones go away? Sale numbers always go up with hype. It's what happens after the hype dies down that will tell the true tale.

Edit - Took out my Strange comment as it appears that jackalope covered it. As well as the fact that I didn't know it was an official reboot. Though in that case, I don't like Strange at all. The sense of wonder around Dr. Strange disappeared with that reboot, at least it did to me.
*And by the way the statement was used, it isn't a magic "will only work once" style of cure

The Shadow

06-07-2005, 03:22 PM

i havent heard anyone here say they quit reading the book because it was boring or because they didnt like it.
I dropped the book because it was boring and I didn't like it.

The Fury

06-07-2005, 03:44 PM

Wow, This is very interesting and odd at the same time.

When I first heard of the new BP series, I heard it was set in the past as there was a evil Black Knight. Then a while back people said it was in the present (it's connection to HoM being the key indication).

I have not read this book, so I have no say in the quailty of the story telling, but by just reading this thread and looking at the overall continuity mistakes. I would be glad if this whole series was whiped from MU history, or said to be set in an alternate world. Which make me ask the question of whether it was intended as part of the 616.

All the things Hudlin has said and done make him seem arrogant and and up himself. He surely should accept that if he changed things that contridicted stuff that has been said and done before then there will be complaints about this. He's giving excuses and not really explaining himself, and just blaming the readers for being 'obsessive' while not accepting himself that he's made mistakes.

Ivan Isaacs

06-07-2005, 03:49 PM

When I first heard of the new BP series, I heard it was set in the past as there was a evil Black Knight. Then a while back people said it was in the present (it's connection to HoM being the key indication).

Hudlin said that #1-6 are some sort of "Year One" and after that the series would move to the present.

The Fury

06-07-2005, 03:52 PM

Hudlin said that #1-6 are some sort of "Year One" and after that the series would move to the present.
Ah the whole "Year One" stuff, huh?

Either way.

Elsemedia

06-07-2005, 04:14 PM

Wow. So much vitriol on behalf of a character that has been, until VERY recently, second-tier at best. I mean do you all really care this much about the freaking Black Panther? If so, why was there room for Hudlin to get in at all? Shouldn't Preist's version still be running with fans this rabid?

Hmmm?

Anyway.

Point One)
Retcons are standard practice in comics. If you don't like one, you call it bad writing. If you do, it's genius. Wait a while, kids. Things will change again.

also: just because there's a Chinese guy calling himself the Radioactive Man doesn't mean NOBODY else can call themselves that. Power Man anybody? Photon? Captain Marvel? Seems to me some people are LOOKING for things to dislike.

Point Two)
Hudlin isn't doing anything with BP that hasn't been done before in other books like Aquaman, Captain America, Swamp Thing, Stormwatch, even JLA. Nothing.

Point Three)
Priest himself tossed whole big slabs of continuity in favor of his own versions and, since people seem to have forgotten, faced a lot of the very same crits that are currently being levelled at Hudlin.

Point Four)
Grow up. It's a comic book. Where was all this squawking when the Yellow Claw or The Mandarin last showed up? Or over Will Eisner's depictions of various non-whites in his work? Where was all this whining over the recent Cage mini which not only was rife with insane retcons but had to be one of the more racially offensive works in recent years?

Nowhere, that's where. Absolute silence.

So, my advice is, quit whining. Save your money if you don't like it and get on with something important. And maybe show a little more consistency on the issue of Race in comics and in Life.

You know: for a change.

Shellhead

06-07-2005, 04:40 PM

Elsemedia, you are correct that all of our complaints about Hudlin's Black Panther are things that we have complained about on other titles over the years.

What's almost breath-taking about Hudlin is that he has managed to cause all of these problems in just a few issues. Even Chuck Austen needed a running start before he screwed things up so badly, and I thought he was the one of most worthless hacks in the entire industry.

The reason we are all so upset about Hudlin's depiction is not simply that he's writing a beloved character so poorly, but that he's doing it so soon after another writer did it so well. And skin color doesn't even enter into this, despite the racist assumptions made by Hudlin and insinuated by you, because Priest was also african-american. Anybody can be a racist, and when Hudlin makes assumptions about all of his critics being white, he is being racist as well. And if you're backing him up on that, you're a racist, too.

Stony

06-07-2005, 05:02 PM

Ok , this is your Moderator speaking....

I don't mind you criticising a book or the creative team, but jumping on each other just because they unfathomably like/dislike something is a no no.
So be cool.

Sharcque

06-07-2005, 05:14 PM

i havent heard anyone here say they quit reading the book because it was boring or because they didnt like it.
I dropped the book because it was boring and I didn't like it.

LMAO

Retcons are standard practice in comics. If you don't like one, you call it bad writing. If you do, it's genius. Wait a while, kids. Things will change again.
If it was only retconning BP, fine. But it's affecting a lot of other stuff too.

also: just because there's a Chinese guy calling himself the Radioactive Man doesn't mean NOBODY else can call themselves that. Power Man anybody? Photon? Captain Marvel? Seems to me some people are LOOKING for things to dislike.

Then why is he green and looks like the original? If he was a new character, why not make him red? Russian & radioactive --- red woulda been better. When asked about this, all Hudlin will say is, that Chernobyl happened, so why can't he be from Russia? He won't say it's a new character.

Hudlin isn't doing anything with BP that hasn't been done before in other books like Aquaman, Captain America, Swamp Thing, Stormwatch, even JLA. Nothing.

Grow up. It's a comic book. Where was all this squawking when the Yellow Claw or The Mandarin last showed up? Or over Will Eisner's depictions of various non-whites in his work? Where was all this whining over the recent Cage mini which not only was rife with insane retcons but had to be one of the more racially offensive works in recent years?

Nowhere, that's where. Absolute silence.

So, my advice is, quit whining. Save your money if you don't like it and get on with something important. And maybe show a little more consistency on the issue of Race in comics and in Life.

You know: for a change.

OK --- let's say that Bendis reveals the mystery Avenger to be the Black Panther, and then he has the Black Panther take off his mask to reveal a white man....would that be ok? Then, when asked about it, Bendis could say, "Ehhh...it's a comic book. Just read it for what it is. It's fiction. Get over it." Yeah --- that would go over really well, wouldn't it.

Sharcque

06-07-2005, 05:25 PM

There's a thread at Hudlin's site now, linking to this one, and basically, we're all racists.

DDM

06-07-2005, 05:32 PM

There's a thread at Hudlin's site now, linking to this one, and basically, we're all racists.

Wow, he's so...original. Does Barbra Streisand help him on his website? :p

Beast

06-07-2005, 05:33 PM

There's a thread at Hudlin's site now, linking to this one, and basically, we're all racists.
Oh for the love of god. I hate racism, I grew up with racist parents. I have dedicated my life to ensure that I never turn out that way. And actually am very vocal about people I know when they make racist jokes or comments. And yes, I still dislike Hudin's 'Black Panther' because it butchers continuity. I'm just sad I have to pick up the crossover issues with the X-Men. But at least I know he won't butcher their characters when they appear. And if he's allowed to, Marvel Editorial has lost their minds. I'm sick of 'Insert Big Name Writer Here' being allowed to get away with murder, yet they crack down on anyone else.

Doom Hammer

06-07-2005, 05:38 PM

How the hell are you supposed to argue with Reggie's brand of flaming accusations? That's ignorant and immature.

It's like he's saying, "You don't like my book?...Well, it's 'cause you're too white, and it's too black, and you don't care to look at it from a black point of view because you're a racist!"

Friggin' witch hunt. Weeeeeak.

...And for what they are, I like his books, dammit! :evilangry

Elsemedia

06-07-2005, 05:48 PM

Elsemedia, you are correct that all of our complaints about Hudlin's Black Panther are things that we have complained about on other titles over the years.

[snip]

The reason we are all so upset about Hudlin's depiction is not simply that he's writing a beloved character so poorly, but that he's doing it so soon after another writer did it so well. And skin color doesn't even enter into this, despite the racist assumptions made by Hudlin and insinuated by you, because Priest was also african-american. Anybody can be a racist, and when Hudlin makes assumptions about all of his critics being white, he is being racist as well. And if you're backing him up on that, you're a racist, too.

I take issue with the term "beloved."

While it's possible that some here do, in fact, LOVE BP's earlier incarnations (some won't even TRY reading Hudlin's version, apparently, based upon the skewed reveiwing) you really can't make the case that T'Challa has sat anywhere but on the shelf for most of the time since his creation.

Priest made him Cool. Hudlin's apparently making him hot.

I disagree that Hudlin's treatment is poor or that his "retcons" are 1) necessarily retcons or 2) bad choices. The only true change is that of Klaw. The Russian Radioactive Man is likely the spy from the first issue of the Hulk, back from the dead and irradiated to boot. And don't start whining about bringing folks back from the dead. X-Men does that every week. And isn' t that little Bucky I see running around over in Cap's book? How's that for continuity? Frankly I prefer this Batroc to all the others ever.

I also take issue with the characterization of my post that says I think fans have been in uproar over this sort of thing before. I clearly said that they have NOT, hence my bemusement with the vitriol pointed Hudlin's way.

I think Hudlin is in his rights to assume that the mass of comic book fans are white. They are. I also think it's a supportable position that the bulk of the crits come from people who are either racially opposed to Hudlin's take (showing evil white people behaving so based on racial motivations rather than, say, greed is apparently out of bounds when it comes to black writers. because THAT's never happened before in the real world. Odd how the diversity coin gets flipped sometimes.) or based upon their political differences (BP is clearly WAY left, so far). It's certainly not some crazy reactionary veiw and it certainly doesn't make Hudlin a racist or, God forbid, unAmerican.

While there are some few sticklers for continuity in the anti-Hudlin choir (Quixotic at best as comics are in a constant state of continuity flux and anyone who says otherwise is deluded or lying), to broaden that few to represent the whole is, at least, as skewed as what people don't like about Hudlin's supposed "racial bias."

Priest had a good run. Not good enough to sustain the title's life indefinitely but a good run nonetheless. It just doesn't scan that the hordes of folks decrying Hudlin's take do so because they miss Priest's.

If that were true, a simple letter-writing campaign or media boycott would knock him out of the box. For example: John Stewart was shoved into the backfield [when Kyle was brought in and again] when "The Great" Hal Jordan was returned to us. Say what you want about them, them H.E.A.T. boys sure did make a case.

No such ground swell has begun to take Hudlin's T'Challa down, nor will it, I suspect.

Because, while Hudlin's take may ultimatly be nothing more than another pile of comic book fluff, and cuts way closer to Reality's bones than some would like to admit, it's numbers show it to be popular enough to keep it alive. For now.

I personally LOVE this book. It does nothing to take away from Priest's equally enjoyable run anymore than the filmed version of LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN does anything to hurt the comic book version.

Doom Hammer

06-07-2005, 05:52 PM

You know, it's kind of funny. I liked Black Panther because of the way that Hudlin was writing with stereotypes. (Now hear me out before the yelling starts). Have you read #3? Russians are drunks, the French are weak, Americans are dumb and rude, Belgians are evil, etc etc.

I thought that the stereotypes he assigned to semi-popular Marvel characters were a unique and even clever way to look at world affairs. A satire or a parody, more than a strict superhero comic book. It isn't an incredibly accurate portrayal of the characters or the general races they represent, but it didn't feel like it was supposed to be. It had the potential to be a different, clever, contraversial, outside perspective.

And now, he's publicly labeling people as bigots because THEY DON'T LIKE HIS BOOK. So basically, he wasn't being clever, he was being racially insensetive and cheap. I swear, of all the hypocritical, two-faced, ignorant actions...

Beast

06-07-2005, 06:01 PM

Yes, it is indeed true that there will always be some tweaking of canon in comic books. That's the nature of the Beast. But Hudin has managed in such a small number of issues, to completely shred the old canon and re-write a great deal of the aspects of who the character is. There's a different between a minor retcon to fix an aspect that doesn't work in comics, then there is to retcon basically everything and start from scratch. With the number of changes, this isn't new adventures of the classic character. This is a 'All-New All-Different' version of the character. He certainly fits more in a fresh universe, than he does in the continuity heavy and canon respected 616 Universe. Now if this was Ultimate Black Panther, go crazy... it sounds like it. :)

Beast

06-07-2005, 06:13 PM

I'm not going to register over there to argue, but I'm sure they're reading here anyway. So I'll address something mentioned over there...
Okay then would a better example be "The Truth" where it is revealed that there was military experiments done on black soldiers or what about "Avengers Disassembled" which it is revealed that Wanda has become overloaded with Chaos magic that's not even suppose to exisist???
That isn't rewriting the canon history of the character, or changing the formative events that were the cause of who they are as a person. All that is, is revealing new information to be able to tell a new story. This sort of thing, doesn't bother most of those of us who follow canon. After all, revealing more of Magneto's past is one of the things that made him a sympathetic character, for example. It's not shredding any of the stuff that came before in the character's history. It's just taking an aspect of it, and revealing more information about it. Or establishing something, that doesn't heavily alter what came before or who the character is as a whole. This is nothing like Hudin is doing. He's deliberatly shredding established canon and re-writing it as he pleases. I can understand a minor retcon here, or a re-examination of the facts there, all for the common good of tell a good story. But this isn't the case with what he's doing with Black Panther. In a short number of issues, he's changed a great deal of who the character is.

hbkabdul

06-07-2005, 06:21 PM

Beast

06-07-2005, 06:27 PM

I hope you all arent losing sleep over this. and people wonder why comic creators are always lambasting the internet everything goes from a civil discussion to mud flinging and so called "facts".
"But im right because in issue 4 of volume 3 on page 6 and panel 2 this happened!"
Not losing sleep at all, because I don't really care as it pertains to Black Panther. I'm just supporting the people who do care about canon. And I am always for staying true to canon when it comes to Marvel. It's crap like this, various origins and contradicting stories, that caused DC to have to have a 'Crisis' in the first place. And for the most part I have been happy that Marvel have tried to stay true to canon, and not require a 'reboot' to be able to fix continuity issues. It would be a shame to start now, especially when a great number of books are staying true to their canon/continuity. And who's flinging mud? We're debating the continuity facts, as they relate to the book. Those classic issues that introduced 'Black Panther' established the character, so what they say about the character are facts. The Hudlin book is trashing those canon facts, for his own ideals. Like I said, I'm sure the book would be fine...... as Ultimate Black Panther. :)

DattaBoy

06-07-2005, 06:28 PM

I keed I keed!!!

Loren

06-07-2005, 06:30 PM

Priest made him Cool. Hudlin's apparently making him hot.

That's arguable. Here is the month-to-month sales figures for BP, from The Pulse (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=003818):

Feb 05 Black Panther #1 - 69,930
Mar 05 Black Panther #2 - 47,533 ( -32.0%)
Apr 05 Black Panther #3 - 44,925 ( -5.5%)

There's no online database for sales figures as far back as '98, but I found numbers for a few of Priest's early issues through Usenet:

Sep 98 Black Panther #1 - 54,500
Oct 98 Black Panther #2 - 48,800
(nothing for #3-5)
Feb 99 Black Panther #6 - 42,000

Roughly the same, more or less. The market was a bit healthier in '98, but the new BP series also had a boatload of publicity behind it, including stories in major newspapers.

I disagree that Hudlin's treatment is poor or that his "retcons" are 1) necessarily retcons or 2) bad choices. The only true change is that of Klaw.

You mean that the only similarities between the old Klaw and the new one is 1) the name, and 2) the fact that he caused T'Chaka to die? Everything else about the character (from appearance to motivation to profession, and virtually every other character trait) is different.

Even if you don't think of the other changes as true changes, I'm not sure how you could think that Ross hasn't been changed. All that remains the same about him is 1) the name, and 2) the fact that he works for the US gov't. Everything else (from appearance to age to profession to experience, etc., plus being moved into an earlier part of BP history) is different.

The Russian Radioactive Man is likely the spy from the first issue of the Hulk, back from the dead and irradiated to boot.

And you're basing that conclusion on...? Is there really any evidence to support that theory other than both are Russian guys named Igor? That's pretty scant evidence to draw a conclusion on. Particuarly since the Hulk guy showed up human in a later issue.

And don't start whining about bringing folks back from the dead.

Um, who's whining about who being brought back from the dead? The only character alive who should be dead is N'Yami, T'Challa's mom. And she hasn't been resurrected; Hudlin apparently retconned BP's backstory so she never died. Consequently, this pretty much eliminates the character of Ramonda, the woman who T'Challa considered his mother.

I think Hudlin is in his rights to assume that the mass of comic book fans are white. They are.

Well, duh. Most American moviegoers are white, as are most television viewers and radio listeners. When the country is 80% white, that's sorta inevitable.

I also think it's a supportable position that the bulk of the crits come from people who are either racially opposed to Hudlin's take ... or based upon their political differences (BP is clearly WAY left, so far).

I'm still very skeptical of the notion that there are lots of comic fans out there who dislike black people but buy "Black Panther" anyway. It seems more like a way of discrediting one's opponents by claiming they're *actually* bigots.

Loren

Beast

06-07-2005, 06:35 PM

First off I want to say that there are some obvious lies in this thread

#1 The current title is selling quite well it's leveling out at around 40,000+ issues.

#2 I've been to Hudlin's forums before and i've even viewed the topics in question and I don't think he's called anyone racist or the such because they didn't like his book or because they were asking to many questions.

#3 I can only think of one or two posters that might have thrown around the race card so it's not every member.

#4 I've been to thread in which Sharque claims people are calling people over here racist and no one over there makes such claims and for the record Hudlin didn't start the topic and he hasn't appeared in the topic in question.
1. That's not selling well. Anything under 35K is cancellation range as of late. And the book is shedding readers like crazy, it will be in cancellation range in a few issues. Though HoM and the X-Men crossover will likely give it some life support.

2. Maybe not outright, but he's certainly implied it. Frankly I don't care what Mr. Hudin's personal politics are. All I care about is Marvel continuity and canon, and that is where he's insulting me. Because I'm not a racist. Far from it.

3. There's a number of posters there that mention the race card. And Hudin's own vieled comments that allude to it. Spin it all you like, that's what he meant about the politics of the book.

4. There's comments that suggest that. And if you read outside that thread, it's pretty heavily presented by a number of members there, that all the complaints about the book are due to something other than canon.

Titanium

06-07-2005, 06:49 PM

Gaz

06-07-2005, 06:53 PM

This book looked so promising in the beginning but now I have no idea whats going on because of all the retconning. It probably doesnt help I'm reading New Thunderbolts at the same time and am wondering when the hell Radioactive man became russian.

I'm wondering how many other average readers are just as confused about this book. It's good and everything, but the continuity thing is just bothering me.
And that's the disrespect I pointed out. If he wants a new R-Man, then say so, don't pretend it's the same character when he's being used by someone else who's having a hard enough time trying to redeem him anyway.

jackalope

06-07-2005, 06:53 PM

HUDLIN: Feb 05 Black Panther #1 - 69,930

PREIST: Sep 98 Black Panther #1 - 54,500

We could look at these figues and say "Hudlin's name sold 15,000 more copies than Preist's name."

We could also say the far more likely "The much beloved fan-favorite JRJR's name sold 15,000 more copies than relative unknown Mark Texeira's name."

We could even say "It ain't Hudlin that's adding heat to this title."

Also, Priest's #1 came out in 1996, a good six years before the Spider-Man movie would rekindle the comic book market. Priest's comic came out at a very, very rough time for the market. So Hudlin's numbers are rather meaningless. If he was selling 150k+, that'd be worth mentioning.

DDM

06-07-2005, 07:08 PM

We could look at these figues and say "Hudlin's name sold 15,000 more copies than Preist's name."

We could also say the far more likely "The much beloved fan-favorite JRJR's name sold 15,000 more copies than relative unknown Mark Texeira's name."

We could even say "It ain't Hudlin that's adding heat to this title."

Also, Priest's #1 came out in 1996, a good six years before the Spider-Man movie would rekindle the comic book market. Priest's comic came out at a very, very rough time for the market. So Hudlin's numbers are rather meaningless. If he was selling 150k+, that'd be worth mentioning.

I'll take Hudlin seriously when Black Panther sells 500,000 copies. Otherwise, I'll just think of him as if he's from another planet--not from Earth--with his ad hominem attacks as calling his critics "racists."

For a writer, Hudlin has not developed much of a backbone, cooth, or respect for the Marvel Universe & the Marvel readers. It certainly explains his vacant constructive criticism with personal attacks instead. Really smart writer guy.

Go back to Hollyweird.

Anthony

06-07-2005, 07:20 PM

You know I'm still waiting for the Hudlin supporters to actually address the things I said.

hbkabdul

06-07-2005, 09:21 PM

You know I'm still waiting for the Hudlin supporters to actually address the things I said.

I'd oblige your request but I get off work in 25 minutes but would be more than happy to take you up on your offer of "debate" once i return to work tommorrow.

overcomebyfumes

06-07-2005, 09:40 PM

besides i dont see anyone jumping down JMS's throat after he basically did the same thing with Strange.

Well, you haven't read any of my posts on the subject then. What JMS did to Dr. Strange is just as appalling as what's going on here... if I were to meet JMS, I would applaud him for Supreme Power, and then jump down his throat for ruining one of my favorite characters.

But Strange is a limited and not an ongoing series, so whatever damage JMS has done is much more likely to be forgotten. And I kind of get the feeling that there aren't as many passionate Dr. Strange fans skulking around anymore. Sad.

Also, JMS has written some things that are generally recognized as being good, so Stange is more like an abberation, you know, "you can't hit them all out of the park." Whereas Hudlin only has Black Panther to base his reputation on. You can't say, "ok, Black Panther's awful, but this, this and this were pretty good."

CLEA'S HAIR IS WHITE!!!!! CLEA IS NOT TRINITY!!! DR. STRANGE IS NOT NEO!!! AAARRRGGGHHH!!! BAD JMS! BAD! BAD! DON'T DO IT AGAIN!

.

Valen

06-07-2005, 10:04 PM

jackalope

06-07-2005, 10:16 PM

CLEA'S HAIR IS WHITE!!!!! CLEA IS NOT TRINITY!!! DR. STRANGE IS NOT NEO!!! AAARRRGGGHHH!!! BAD JMS! BAD! BAD! DON'T DO IT AGAIN!
Clea's hair is white when we first meet her in Strange Tales #126. Strange is set before that. Perhaps some event in the intervening time turns Clea's hair white?

And you are right, Doctor Strange is not Neo. He is the very special student that the Ancient One has spent centuries searching for, but he is not the Saviour of the Matrix, just the Sorceror Supreme. Doctor Strange was a "mystical chosen one" before Keannu Reeves was wearing diapers.

Also, unlike Black Panther, the Strange series spins directly out of the events of Amazing Spider-Man #500, where Dr. Strange's rescue of Spider-Man from the Giant Time-Swirly created an opportunity for Mordo to force Doctor Strange to relive his life, which essentially means "update the origin story".

See my post on the Strange #6 thread for more on the continuity problems created by Strange.

Sharcque

06-07-2005, 10:33 PM

I'm done with Hudlin's board. I went and apologized for asking continuity questions and setting everyone off. A couple people there were "hospitable", but for the most part, everyone there has a "How dare you question Reginald!" attitude.

As for creator's boards, the creator's set the tones for the boards, and Hudlin has obviously set the tone for his board, and has his followers solling suit.

I'm dropping the book. And MK: Spider-Man. This is the first time I've ever dropped a book not for bad art or bad story (which it really kinda is), but more because of my dislike for a creator, that I didn't have until I visited his board.

overcomebyfumes

06-07-2005, 10:33 PM

Posted on the Hudlin forum, to kinda explain just where I am coming from.

Quote from: Cage on Today at 01:17:09 PM

"I read every post of that thread, and all that it points out to me is that there are some strange and twisted people on the internet. One poster actually says, I haven't even read this book and I'm outraged, lets write letters. (Not verbatim, but you get the drift.)"

That was me. I will own up to it.

No, I haven't read the book. HOWEVER - it does bother me when writers, ANY writer, doesn't pay attention to continuity. I've posted many criticisms on the CBR forum about JMS's "Strange" (which I have read. And if I could somehow un-read it, I would gladly do so) and how bad THAT was because Straczynski didn't respect what previous writers had done with the character. The criticisms I have heard about BP are sadly similar to problems I have seen, and been troubled by, in other recent Marvel titles.

I probably should read BP before I commented, true, but in my defense, Marvel has been making a habit of this sort of thing recently - writers not respecting continuity and editors not doing their jobs. The worst offender in this regard is Grant Morrison's run on "New X-Men". The run ended I think a year ago, but the continuity was so bad that they're STILL trying to explain away things that happened that shouldn't have. I would like to see fans writing in not so much specifically regarding BP, but also books like Strange, New X-Men, and others where the writer is getting off track.

This is an issue that has been bothering me for quite some time with Marvel, and if it looked like I was just jumping ONLY on Hudlin, that wasn't my intent. There are other writers and titles that are just as, if not more guilty, and I would hope that the fans take the time to let Marvel know that they no longer want to see this sort of thing happening. I apologize for not making that clearer in my post on the CBR forum.

Loren

06-07-2005, 11:13 PM

1. That's not selling well. Anything under 35K is cancellation range as of late. And the book is shedding readers like crazy, it will be in cancellation range in a few issues.

I disagree. "Exiles" has been selling at about 35K for over a year now, and it's not in danger of cancellation. "Marvel Knights 4," "New Thunderbolts," and "Marvel Team-Up" all are under 35K. The most recently cancelled Marvel series (Gambit, District X, Rogue, New Invaders) were selling down around the 20K level or lower.

Plus, there's only three issues of data so far, and the first issue's numbers are skewed due to the press blitz. Do the figures for #2 and 3 suggest that it's settling around 40K? I think that's a premature conclusion to draw on the dataset. Priest's was still selling 42K at #6, but had dropped to under 33K by #12 and to under 23K by #18.

This series could start hemmorhaging readers like that after the first arc. It might even do it faster. Or it might level out at a healthy 40K for the longterm. But two issues' sales figures aren't nearly enough to tell us which.

Loren

Beast

06-07-2005, 11:16 PM

Yeah, but the books you mentioned have been selling consistantly at the 35K range, with no major losses. If a book sheds readers regularly at a high number, it will be cancelled even before it hits 30K. Just because they follow the trends and can see if it's likely to level off or not before 30K.

The Shadow

06-07-2005, 11:16 PM

And isn' t that little Bucky I see running around over in Cap's book? How's that for continuity?
Jusrt playing devils advocate here but Bucky's death was a retcon as it was never shown. Stan included it for people that knew Cap from the golden age so they would know what happened.

Sharcque

06-07-2005, 11:22 PM

And, we still don't know that it is, in fact, Bucky, either.

I want to address the Radioactive Man issue. Contrary to popular rumor, Hudlin has not said that it is a different character. All he's said is since Chernobyl happened, why couldn't he be Russian. If it was a different character, then why make him green and look like the original? Most would think of radiation color-wise as red. And with red being depictive of Russian, wouldn't it have been better if it were a new character to make him red? And why not call him Nuclear Man, or something else? If he eventually comes out & says he's a different character, I won't believe it was his original intention.

The Shadow

06-07-2005, 11:25 PM

I'm dropping the book.
Say it with me!

I dropped the book because it was boring and I didn't like it.

You KNOW you wanna! :D :p

Loren

06-07-2005, 11:27 PM

We could look at these figues and say "Hudlin's name sold 15,000 more copies than Preist's name."

We could also say the far more likely "The much beloved fan-favorite JRJR's name sold 15,000 more copies than relative unknown Mark Texeira's name."

We could even say "It ain't Hudlin that's adding heat to this title."

I look at the first issue figure and say "Articles in the New York Times, USA Today, Vanity Fair, the New York Daily News and other major newspapers sold 15,000 more copies than no press at all."

Also, Priest's #1 came out in 1996, a good six years before the Spider-Man movie would rekindle the comic book market. Priest's comic came out at a very, very rough time for the market.

Actually, the market was a bit better at the time. Here (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.misc/browse_thread/thread/5e9ef08b0e0ca49f/024ca551f47234bc?q=%22black+panther+%232%22+%2B+19 98+%2B+estimated&rnum=1&hl=en#024ca551f47234bc) are the numbers for October 1998, when Priest's second issue came out. Now compare with last month (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/6904.html). 48.8K got Priest a #40 slot in 1998, but today it would've netted #32.

Loren

Sharcque

06-07-2005, 11:30 PM

Say it with me!

"I dropped the book because it was boring and I didn't like it."

You KNOW you wanna! :D :p

"I dropped the book because it was boring and I didn't like it."

Wow, you're right, I feel better already. :p :D

Loren

06-08-2005, 12:25 AM

It seems to be a recurring bit of debate in BP discussion that when the continuity changes are complained about, it's rebutted that such changes shouldn't stand in the way of a person's enjoyment of a good story. There's some validity to that argument, but are also some weaknesses to it.

One is that, like it or not, comic characters tend to live in shared fictional universes. What a writers puts in one book has the potential to affect the events in another book years later. Most writers, I imagine, hope that the stories they contribute to this communal fiction will be respected by future writers. In other words, they hope that the continuity they establish will be held firm.

As such, it makes sense to pay a certain respect to the work of the writers that came before, and not make too many sweeping changes of your own. Don't mess with characters that don't need messing with. In a recent Superman story, Judd Winick seemingly made massive alterations to the Spectre's backstory with just some passing dialogue. Maybe it was just an error and maybe it'll be ignored (I hope so); but the Spectre's history was perfectly good and didn't need what Winick did to it.

Similarly, I can't think of any problems there have ever been with T'Challa's story. His origin was suitably significant, noble, and tragic. His history is pretty straightforward and hardly convoluted. I'd never read Panther before I read Priest's series, and I had no trouble with the character.

Superman got revamped because the mythos had gotten dated and crowded. Wonder Woman was revamped to add a much stronger mythological element. Successful revamps tend to act with purpose; unsuccessful ones (like "Strange" seems to be) make changes for the sake of change.

Another point is succintly made by Dave van Domelen: "The problem [with Black Panther] as far as I'm concerned, however, is that Hudlin is tearing apart the continuity in order to tell a mediocre story." I agree.

I don't think continuity complaints are a front for other complaints, but they are tied to it. If a revamp really wins over the readership, they're more willing to forgive continuity changes. Particularly when they know they're getting a revamp.

"Aquaman: Time & Tide" did some pretty different things with Aquaman's backstory (most notably his parentage), but by weaving perhaps a better origin than Orin had had previously, it did well. It sounds like "Strange" is disappointing fans, replacing an old origin with a newer, but inferior one. "Spider-Man: Chapter One" is downright infamous for having made very liberal use of retconning to tell a bad story. Virtually no one preferred the new origin to the old one (even if it did have more modern and realistic trappings), and soon enough the original origin was re-established.

In short, fans don't tend to complain about retcons if they like them or the story they serve. It's been pointed out elsewhere that many of the retcons here aren't even necessary for the story; they're largely superfluous and unnecessary. And personally, I don't think they're an improvement on the original. I don't see the benefit in changing T'Chaka's battlefield death to getting hit by a bullet in a hotel room. Any nobility from the original origin, inherent in T'Chaka's defending his nation from Klaw, is gone. And I certainly don't see how Ross is served by turning him into a dull, middle-aged DoD researcher and shoving him back into a Year One Panther story.

And then there are matters like Radioactive Man, which almost has to be chalked up as an error rather than a retcon. The character himself has no bearing on the BP mythos, so it just unnecessarily complicates things to have an established character who's currently appearing in another book end up so different in this one. It's as if Bendis in "Daredevil" suddenly made Rhino black, saying that this made more sense since rhinos come from Africa.

Loren

The Shadow

06-08-2005, 12:56 AM

"I dropped the book because it was boring and I didn't like it."

Wow, you're right, I feel better already. :p :D
Told ya! ;) :D

Elsemedia

06-08-2005, 02:26 AM

Jusrt playing devils advocate here but Bucky's death was a retcon as it was never shown. Stan included it for people that knew Cap from the golden age so they would know what happened.

Jack Kirby co-created Bucky.

Stan and Jack brought Cap back alone.

Stan says "The reason Bucky isn't around anymore is because he died tragically." Clearly Jack had no problem with this.

That's not a retcon because nobody ever claimed or showed Bucky to be alive and kicking and, while there have been several very slight variations on the exact details of the story, Bucky has been dead since Cap came out of the ice. Before. Cap remembers the death and is the only person alive who could verify it.

Saying that Bucky is ALIVE is a retcon.

The only question is, is it a well written one or not?

Time, meaning Cap fans, will tell.

The same is true of BP. Comics are flux. This idea that they are static and that every writer should doggedly adhere to the increasing baggage of minutia some call "continuity" or they're being disrespectful is just hogwash.

Story trumps continuity. Of course it does. Why should anyone sacrifice a great story about the Scarlet Witch succumbing to Chaos magic over the fact that there isn't any Chaos magic anymore? Answer? They shouldn't. They don't even have to explain how the chaos magic returned. All they have to do is tell a good yarn.

If some other writer wants to exlain how the chaos came back, let her get to writing. If that second story is good, I'll buy it. It's FICTON. There's no canon. The MU is what the current editorial regime says it is. No more. No less.

The writer's job is to please his editor and himself. That's it. All he owes the "fans" is his best effort. Does anyone suggest that Hudlin is phoning this book in?

Those that don't like, don't buy. It's called commerce.

Elsemedia

06-08-2005, 02:43 AM

I want to address the Radioactive Man issue. Contrary to popular rumor, Hudlin has not said that it is a different character. All he's said is since Chernobyl happened, why couldn't he be Russian. If it was a different character, then why make him green and look like the original? Most would think of radiation color-wise as red. And with red being depictive of Russian, wouldn't it have been better if it were a new character to make him red? And why not call him Nuclear Man, or something else?

Radiation is red? Since when? Last I checked it was mostly invisible and, often in the MU, it's green. Even when it's not gamma.

As for the name of the Russian villian in BP, let me ask you this.

Is he radioactive?

Is he a man?

If the answers to both these questions are "yes" then he's perfectly fine with calling himself Radioactive Man. Even if somebody else is doing the same.

Somehow I doubt the Russian version of the name and the Chinese sound anything alike yet they could still both translate into English the same.

DC had three Starfires, multiple Starmen and Manhunters, 3601 Green Lanterns.

Marvel had multiple Whizzers, Captains America, Buckies, Captains Marvel, Power Men, Cats, White Tigers, Black Knights, Human Torches, even Hulks.

Are we really this upset over two Radioactive Men?

Sharcque

06-08-2005, 02:58 AM

Radiation is red? Since when? Last I checked it was mostly invisible and, often in the MU, it's green. Even when it's not gamma.

As for the name of the Russian villian in BP, let me ask you this.

Is he radioactive?

Is he a man?

If the answers to both these questions are "yes" then he's perfectly fine with calling himself Radioactive Man. Even if somebody else is doing the same.

Somehow I doubt the Russian version of the name and the Chinese sound anything alike yet they could still both translate into English the same.

DC had three Starfires, multiple Starmen and Manhunters, 3601 Green Lanterns.

Marvel had multiple Whizzers, Captains America, Buckies, Captains Marvel, Power Men, Cats, White Tigers, Black Knights, Human Torches, even Hulks.

Are we really this upset over two Radioactive Men?

My point was that when something is depicted as "irradiated" it is often shown glowing red. I know radiation is invisible.

And according to you, it's a different character, even when Hudlin won't admit so. But somehow, you know better than the writer, I guess. :confused:

So, yes, I am upset over this, because it's not 2 different characters.