JLA #115 - Batman's Revenge... ["Crisis of Conscience" Discussion & Spoilers!] [Archive]

Lex

06-08-2005, 01:37 PM

I wasn't planning on buying this issue, but the awesomeness of Allan Heinberg's Young Avengers sold me on it... even if he is co-writing with Geoff "everything is tied to Identity Crisis" Johns.

Well, it wasn't as completely horrible as I thought it would be. But it wasn't that good either.

My Dislikes:

-This issue was mostly just characters yelling at each other. Those parts really weren't fun to read.

-I find the mind-wipe plot to be the least interesting part of Identity Crisis, so it was kind of a stuggle getting through this issue.

My Likes:

-Red Tornado appearance! Yay! I've been missing him lately. I almost put this under my dislikes because, once again, he's destroyed to show how bad the villains are... But, and this is an important "but," I'm glad people continue to use Reddy in this role. At least he can be rebuilt and a flesh-and-blood character didn't die. So, I got to see a character I like while other characters don't have to needlessly die. Everyone wins! :)

-The little one-page scene with Hal and Zatanna talking about being a rookie and wanting to impress the more experienced people. That's one of the first interesting moments to come out of this mind-wipe plot. I'm guessing that Heinberg contributed to that scene. It's just like how he actually made something good out of the crappiness of Avengers Disassembled with the Iron Man/"Ant Girl" scene in Young Avengers. Heinberg is awesome!

-The classic Secret Society of Super-Villains is back and they are kickin' butt! I was a little disappointed that they had to tie them in with the mind-wipe plot, but I still enjoyed their scenes. And something tells me that there is more going on with them than it would appear.

Result:

While I have more likes than dislikes, my dislikes of this issue are really strong. The only thing that can save the next issue is more action and less yelling (but now that Batman is involved I don't think that's possible).

In the end, I just hope that this storyline completely resolves the mind-wipe conflict. Then we can get back interesting stories.

PanzerMega

06-08-2005, 05:37 PM

Interesting issue.

The classic Society villains come off as a major league threat, and the Batman/mindwipe stuff (which I personally find really interesting) is stewing in the background.

I also dug Hal's interaction with the rest of the league, and for the first time since his rebirth, I can see him fitting into the universe again (still wish it was Kyle in the league though).

Probably my favorite JLA work since Waid left the title.

Gingold

06-08-2005, 05:48 PM

I thought this was pretty good. I've never read anything by Weinberg, but this was the best book I've read by Johns in a while, so he must be doing something right. The art was good too, I hope Batista and Farmer stick around after this arc, though I doubt they will. My only gripe is that it seems like J'onn may have caused this whole mess by "fixing" the SSOSV's memories. How many JLA stories do we have to get about J'onn doing something well-meaning but stupid that causes problems for the League- we've got Year 1, Terra Incognita, the Scorch/Fernus story, and now possibly this storyline. J'onn's an ethical and sensitive guy, but he's not an idiot, and I don't understand why he gets portrayed this way.

BTW- the Star Sapphire of the SSOSV wasn't Carol Ferris? My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one. I know we had the golden age SS who showed up most recently in the Flash/ GL: Brave and the Bold mini series, but I don't remember this woman.

Expletive Deleted

06-08-2005, 06:01 PM

The Star Sapphire of the SSOSV wasn't Carol Ferris? My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one. I know we had the golden age SS who showed up most recently in the Flash/ GL: Brave and the Bold mini series, but I don't remember this woman.It could just be a retcon to make things easier on Johns in GREEN LANTERN.

Gingold

06-08-2005, 06:05 PM

It could just be a retcon to make things easier on Johns in GREEN LANTERN.

That's what I was afraid of. I always thought the whole Star Sapphire/ Predator angle was the only interesting thing about Carol Ferris.

Lex

06-08-2005, 06:18 PM

Actually there have been several Star Sapphires. The one we see here is Camille, who debuted in Secret Society of Super-Villains #1. At that time, I'm guessing that Carol was no longer Star Sapphire, so the writer (I forget who it was) created a new one.

Gingold

06-08-2005, 06:22 PM

Kevinroc

06-08-2005, 06:27 PM

I wasn't planning on buying this issue, but the awesomeness of Allan Heinberg's Young Avengers sold me on it... even if he is co-writing with Geoff "everything is tied to Identity Crisis" Johns.

Look how much you've changed. You picked this book up because of someone that writes comics for Marvel and seem annoyed that Geoff Johns is co-writing.

ForEverAncien

06-08-2005, 06:32 PM

Oh wow...this is getting good. :D

Ant-Man

06-08-2005, 06:39 PM

I was just happy to be able to buy the JLA again. I did not buy any of the Garney issues, don't like his art style at all.

TCJohnson

06-08-2005, 07:03 PM

I thought this was pretty good. I've never read anything by Weinberg, but this was the best book I've read by Johns in a while, so he must be doing something right.

His name is Heinberg, and I cannot recommend his Young Avengers highly enough! Best comic on the market right now in my opinion.

Lex

06-08-2005, 07:07 PM

Look how much you've changed. You picked this book up because of someone that writes comics for Marvel and seem annoyed that Geoff Johns is co-writing.

Ha! Yeah, there was a time when I would not have even cared anough to know what Young Avengers was. I would've happily missed out on YA's awesomeness because I passionately hated Marvel books.

But, I think that has something to do with how Marvel has changed as a company over the last few years. They are now producing many books that I find interesting (most anything that's not an X-book or New Avengers).

But this was way off topic. JLA #115 intrigued me enough to pick up the next issue. I'm optomistic that my problems with this will be finished by the end of this story.

Kevinroc

06-09-2005, 12:13 AM

Ha! Yeah, there was a time when I would not have even cared anough to know what Young Avengers was. I would've happily missed out on YA's awesomeness because I passionately hated Marvel books.

But, I think that has something to do with how Marvel has changed as a company over the last few years. They are now producing many books that I find interesting (most anything that's not an X-book or New Avengers).

But this was way off topic. JLA #115 intrigued me enough to pick up the next issue. I'm optomistic that my problems with this will be finished by the end of this story.

Just consider my previous post a friendly little rib. We've communicated over the messageboards for quite awhile so I just found it ironic.

But getting back on topic, it sure looks like Batman, Catwoman and MM are screwed. Since the Batman stuff got out there in this issue and set-up that the villains remember the heroes secret IDs, I predict much more beat-em-up action in the next few issues.

The art sure was nice, though. :)

Mainline

06-09-2005, 04:56 AM

MORE people who know Batman's identity!

Sandy Hausler

06-09-2005, 05:23 AM

BTW- the Star Sapphire of the SSOSV wasn't Carol Ferris? My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one. I know we had the golden age SS who showed up most recently in the Flash/ GL: Brave and the Bold mini series, but I don't remember this woman.

No, she wasn't Carol, but I thought she was a French woman (Camille or something).

Sandy Hausler

Sk8maven

06-09-2005, 08:30 AM

Looks like the 'toon Star Sapphire carries back over into the flat-page DCU.

Maven

ROSS

06-09-2005, 09:10 AM

This issue made up for the past 12+ issues of JLA that I thought were not interesting. And a group of bad guys that I've hardly seen before. This one should be great.

The Shadow

06-09-2005, 09:21 AM

MORE people who know Batman's identity!
That was the part that annoyed me.

Other than that I LOVED the issue!

Phoney Bone

06-09-2005, 10:40 AM

Of course they know who Batman is. The SSoSV switched bodies with the JLA years ago. They did what any villian would naturally do, look under the masks and seen who the heroes really were. That was the whole justification for the memory-erasing.

So far, Dr. Light and the Top are the only two who have been confirmed that their minds and personalities were actually altered.

The Shadow

06-09-2005, 11:04 AM

Who were all the villains anyway?

Phoney Bone

06-09-2005, 11:15 AM

From the last page, left-to-right:

Star Sapphire II
Felix Faust
The Wizard
The Floronic Man aka The Plantmaster
Chronos
Matter Master

In the original Pre-Crisis mind switch story (JLA #167-169) the SSSoV were Sapphire, Wizard and Plantmaster along with the original Blockbuster and Reverse-Flash.

I'm betting this story is a sequel of sorts.

Loren

06-09-2005, 11:29 AM

Has it been said why Chronos is up and kicking again? He sorta faded from existence in "Chronos" #1, and even then he was old and retired from the villain game.

I remember that Meltzer said in IC that Chronos was from seconds before his own death, but that didn't fit with his death at all. Is his appearance here just following up on that one, with no further explanation?

Loren

StoneGold

06-09-2005, 01:33 PM

MORE people who know Batman's identity!
You can bet that's going to change by the end of the arc though.

pureclint

06-09-2005, 02:19 PM

I liked the issue.

Yet again we see how deadly the Villians in the DCU can be, they trounced the JL in no time (and a GJ/Hal to boot).

The invisible Jonzz joke was smirk worthy, and we finally get Carter admit killing Light has crossed his mind.

Maybe next issue we will see GJ douse some of the "antiBatman" flames he has ignited with some of his work.

ForEverAncien

06-09-2005, 02:57 PM

The Shadow

06-09-2005, 03:03 PM

Thanks for that list.... :D :D
Yeah, thanks

I had no idea who some of them were!

Nate Palm

06-09-2005, 06:53 PM

The cover was a take on a painting right? Anybody know the name or got a link? It's driving me crazy.

Brock

GremlinClr

06-09-2005, 07:35 PM

Some one refresh my memory, isn't the Floronic Man one of the ones that remembers the original Crisis?

gorosaurus

06-09-2005, 08:54 PM

Some one refresh my memory, isn't the Floronic Man one of the ones that remembers the original Crisis?
Your are thinking of Psycho-Pirate, I believe. He was/is in an aslyum in the pages of Animal Man because of his memories. Everyone else thinks he's insane because he talks about multiple earths.

yenaled

06-10-2005, 12:30 AM

Loved the Red Tornado cameo and the fact that Ralph is in this.

SSOSV is obviously targetting the satellite league.

ScottDMSimmons

06-10-2005, 01:25 PM

Was it just me, or was Opal City getting revealed as being in Maryland a new thing?

Liked seeing Red Tornado again.

I don't believe J'Onn "fixed" anything with the villains. The guy who undid Star Sapphire was only shown by cape, so you'd think it was maybe J'Onn. I think all J'Onn wanted to do was tell Batman the League was sorry and they were going to tell him so. Maybe he plans to be a mediator of sorts, since he was deceived too, but would like everyone to work through the issue and figure out the best solutions to the problems. But, of course, the problem re-presented itself.

BTW, the one with good intentions who fixed a mistake with a villain was FLASH.... see recent issues of Wally's own title. Consequences of Barry's request to Wally have shown up in the recent ROGUE WAR, now occurring.

--Scott

Sk8maven

06-10-2005, 03:27 PM

Was it just me, or was Opal City getting revealed as being in Maryland a new thing? Let's wait and see if it sticks. Keystone City was in Ohio temporarily in JSA #16. ;)

It's rather curious that no matter WHERE you try to put Opal City, you wind up having to ignore some of the details.

Maven

gorosaurus

06-10-2005, 04:23 PM

I found it a bit out of continuity that the Elemental force that resides In Red Tornado's body did not emerge when his "shell" was destroyed.
Also Wizard is pulling double duty in this title and in his old costume in
Villains United. I am also wondering why the villain line-up changed since
the original JLA story. Only 5 heroes and 5 villains had their minds swapped.

I have a question hopefully someone can answer. What's with Ralph still needing to drink Gingold? I thought I read somewhere his body had absorbed so much of the stuff he didn't need to drink it anymore.
Despite these things, I think this is the start of a great story.
It was nice to see Hawkman being a bigger jerk than Batman for a change.

yenaled

06-10-2005, 05:03 PM

I have a question hopefully someone can answer. What's with Ralph still needing to drink Gingold? I thought I read somewhere his body had absorbed so much of the stuff he didn't need to drink it anymore.

Probably after Sue died he has layed off the stuff a bit and the effects have stopped, or something.

Heraclevs

06-10-2005, 05:49 PM

I liked the scene with Catwoman. Maybe Geoff Johns will write Batman decently. From what I've read on these posts, no one here sems to think he likes the character.

Forsaken_One

06-10-2005, 07:20 PM

I liked the scene with Catwoman. Maybe Geoff Johns will write Batman decently. From what I've read on these posts, no one here sems to think he likes the character.
Well I trust Allan Heinberg to keep Geoff on track when it comes to both keeping Batman from being the unbearable bastard and to keep him from making Hal into the only one who can save the day.

Guts/Batman

06-10-2005, 09:13 PM

I liked it. Not a ton of action but an information comic every now and then helps understand the story.

Interesting to find out that the the JL did something to MM as well.

Wonder what would happen if MM went Batman's direction (in the trust dept.) a lil bit more?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....still haven't read OMAC #2.

batmanfan

06-10-2005, 09:48 PM

This issue is really good i really enjoy Geoff Johns books. Man this arc is going to be so much better than the last two arcs :mad:, it better be :o . This is my third JLA arc i read and man to JLA members hate each other or what; First batman/Hal jordan in GL rebirth 6 and now hawkman/Green Arrow. Im still new to the Dc universe and i thought that they were a group of friends who love each other.

Forsaken_One

06-10-2005, 10:39 PM

First batman/Hal jordan in GL rebirth 6 and now hawkman/Green Arrow. Im still new to the Dc universe and i thought that they were a group of friends who love each other.
Well to be fair the whole Batman/Hal thing wasn't around when they were in the JLA together. It was mroe when Hal attempted to destroy the entierty of existance that Batman developed his mild dislike for Hal.

Green Arrow/Hawkman, now, what has history. Hawkman's always been arch conservative while Ollie's been the liberal strawman. Obviously writing them as not arguing and loving one another wouldn't really... work.

batmanfan

06-11-2005, 12:12 AM

Well to be fair the whole Batman/Hal thing wasn't around when they were in the JLA together. It was mroe when Hal attempted to destroy the entierty of existance that Batman developed his mild dislike for Hal.

Green Arrow/Hawkman, now, what has history. Hawkman's always been arch conservative while Ollie's been the liberal strawman. Obviously writing them as not arguing and loving one another wouldn't really... work.

Ok thanks for the info now it make sense well sort of :) .

Apathy Boy

06-11-2005, 02:23 AM

-The little one-page scene with Hal and Zatanna talking about being a rookie and wanting to impress the more experienced people. That's one of the first interesting moments to come out of this mind-wipe plot. I'm guessing that Heinberg contributed to that scene. It's just like how he actually made something good out of the crappiness of Avengers Disassembled with the Iron Man/"Ant Girl" scene in Young Avengers. Heinberg is awesome!Heh, that actually read like pure Johns to me. Between Johns' raging hard-on for Hal Jordan's flyboyism and his obsessive compulsive need to explain away bits of minutiae that may be misrepresentative of a character, I have a hard time seeing anyone else writing that scene.

Overall, I liked the issue. I like the idea of J'onn being opposed to the mind wipes and I'm still looking forward to seeing Batman go apes*** on the rest of the League. On the other hand, I'm a little less crazy about seeing the Secret Society being portrayed as such sinister badasses. Surely there's a middle ground between being an ineffectual comedy villain and a dripping personification of evil?

marshal99

06-11-2005, 04:32 AM

Also Wizard is pulling double duty in this title and in his old costume in
Villains United. I am also wondering why the villain line-up changed since
the original JLA story. Only 5 heroes and 5 villains had their minds swapped.

Maybe it's because out of the 5 villains that had their minds swapped , 2 of them are dead - Professor Zoom & BlockBuster and u can't really have Star Sapphire , Wizard & Floronic Man taking on the whole JLA.

Didn't Jason Woodrue in his human form recently died in that gotham knights issue where Poison ivy alledgedly died as well ??

gorosaurus

06-11-2005, 02:45 PM

Maybe it's because out of the 5 villains that had their minds swapped , 2 of them are dead - Professor Zoom & BlockBuster and u can't really have Star Sapphire , Wizard & Floronic Man taking on the whole JLA.

Didn't Jason Woodrue in his human form recently died in that gotham knights issue where Poison ivy alledgedly died as well ??
That's a good point, Marshal99- I can see that they need the numbers.
However, the panel where GL is explaining about the mindswap to JJ has Capt.Cold, Poison Ivy, and others who were not in the original story so that panel is like a bit of unnecessary retro-continuity.
Also, I didn't know Woodrue had a human form any longer. Anyone know what's up with that?

Lex

06-11-2005, 04:18 PM

This is my third JLA arc i read and man to JLA members hate each other or what; First batman/Hal jordan in GL rebirth 6 and now hawkman/Green Arrow. Im still new to the Dc universe and i thought that they were a group of friends who love each other.

Welcome to the new and improved, unfriendly, unfun DC Universe! :) In reality, people who work closely together aren't always good friends. Sometimes arguments or personality clashes happen and tempers will flare. But most of those situations are just temporary. We heal.

For the longest time, DC's main characters have been pretty chummy. It's not like Superman and Batman are best buds, but they have a close enough relationship to be considered friends (even if Batman probably wouldn't call it that). But, lately, they've gone to the other extreme where no one likes anyone anymore and they only work together because they pretty much have to.

Now, I strongly dislike this extreme we're in now, but I think the pendulum will either swing back or come to some sort of balance between the two extremes... or at least I hope so. This constant bickering and angry shouting is really annoying.

Didn't Jason Woodrue in his human form recently died in that gotham knights issue where Poison ivy alledgedly died as well ??

Personally, I try to ignore the bad writing in Gotham Knights like it never happened. :)

UniqueFrequency

06-11-2005, 08:18 PM

does anyone else think chris's work looked much better on legion than on the jla?

Reynard

06-12-2005, 07:13 AM

Now, I strongly dislike this extreme we're in now, but I think the pendulum will either swing back or come to some sort of balance between the two extremes... or at least I hope so. This constant bickering and angry shouting is really annoying.

I keep hanging on to the hope that *this* is what INFINITE CRISIS will ultimately be about. Whatever happens, I think we are going to see a DCU that, in recovery, become more optimistic and friendly again. Hereoes don't have to like one another, but when you are breaking up fights on the Watchtower, there is a problem.

Hopefully, the new editorial shuffle and One Year later thing will allow for a breath of fresh air and a DCu that makes us like these heroes again.

ouiyahtsiouiyah

06-12-2005, 12:14 PM

I was confused on how the villians knew the identities, I guess I didn't notice the body swap conversation in the issue

next issue looks like some good action though, hopefully Jonn will do something cool and not Job like he always does, and I don't know about you but I'm excited for some BatGod action next issue YAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

nuclearman

06-16-2005, 09:14 PM

After reading the Countdown to Infinite Crisis I was expecting Batman to really let loose on the rest of the league in JLA 115. So I was a bit disappointed.

This issue sets it up and I really hope this arc is about Batman and his aggressive reaction to his mind wipe and what the league did to the SS.

Even though I was expecting a bit more from 115, I am looking forward to 116.

Typo Lad

06-17-2005, 05:54 AM

Wonder what would happen if MM went Batman's direction (in the trust dept.) a lil bit more?

According to JLA Year One... J'onn had files on the Leage from the get-go. Bruce is j'ohnny come lately.

Guts/Batman

06-17-2005, 02:22 PM

According to JLA Year One... J'onn had files on the Leage from the get-go. Bruce is j'ohnny come lately.

I knew that much.

Read it in Tower of Babel.

Shellhead

06-17-2005, 02:28 PM

Let's wait and see if it sticks. Keystone City was in Ohio temporarily in JSA #16. ;)

It's rather curious that no matter WHERE you try to put Opal City, you wind up having to ignore some of the details.

Maven

Like the fact that Opal City has no suburbs. None at all. I'm up to the fifth Starman trade so far, and it's been good, but touches like that annoy me a little. Robinson's writing can get a little heavy-handed at times, and it hurts the story when the winking and smirking gets to be too much.

protege

06-17-2005, 02:37 PM

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by that?

Shellhead

06-17-2005, 02:50 PM

During one of the early story arcs, when Starman visits a carnival and accidentally stumbles across the blue alien Starman (a heavy-handed coincidence, btw), it's explicitly stated that Opal City doesn't have suburbs. The city just stops and immediately turns to open, desolate, countryside.

Guts/Batman

06-17-2005, 02:53 PM

venuscameback

07-24-2005, 01:42 PM

wow, i really enjoyed this issue, although I feel I must state that i'm fairly new to the JLA.

Zatanna's uncertainty troubled me though, as it suggests you has no backbone, no moral centre. I've got no problem with her having felt obligated to perform the mindwipes in the first place even though she knew it was wrong at the time, because as a new member she was in awe of the JLA.

That's understandable.

She says she knows it was wrong - but then two panels later says she's not sure if she'd make a different decision if she was in that situation now.

which I find confusing, or find Zatanna to be confused. and unfortunately individual comic book issues don't usually have the space to thoroughly depict confusion.

If Zatanna truly believes she was wrong to perform the mindwipes, she surely wouldn't now be saying she might do the same thing again.

So I conclude that either :

she does think it was the right call and is now trying to excuse her decision & blur the moral lines

or

she is just confused as to what was/is the right thing to do. she knows that in theory at least the right thing would be to not mind-wipe but her emotions are telling her otherwise and she's trying to convince herself that she made the wrong call.

any thoughts?

on to my primary reason for posting:

not being terribly familiar with the DCU I don't know who the villains are this issue, except for the one they name, Star Sapphire. Who are this crew and what are their general abilities (for example, who has the power that causes the birds to pour out of Black Canary's mouth when she tries to use her sonic scream? what kind of power is that, magic? illusion casting?)? and who do these foes usually fight - and as a part of a (any)team or solo?

venus