X-Men: The End: Book Two: Heroes and Martyrs #4 Discussion: Review and Spoilers [Archive]

Ryan K

06-08-2005, 11:59 AM

Synopsis:

This issue begins with Scott having sent M, X-23, Wolverine, and Marvel Girl in search of X-Force. After finding and burying the bodies of Domino, Feral, Rictor, and Irene Merrywether, Wolverine questions Rachel's commitment to helping the others kill their friends' killers. Rachel accepts this and she then uses her powers to show residula energy traces (basically showing what happend to X-Force). She then creates a wormhole to follow Slipstream and the Marauders back to their HQ.

Back at the remains of the Institute, Scott is calling family members of those slain. Drinking heavily, he also begins talking aloud about the biggest mistake he ever made in his life; abandoning Madelyne Pryor. Unknown to Scott, Maddie (as Dust) is listening in. Suddenly Scott gets a call from Beast. Emma is hurting herself more by throwing a fit about Sinister having her babies. Scott says he has to leave her in their hands (other things demand his attention). Beast gives Emmaa tranquilizer and she goes to the pyschic plane and forms a mindlink with Rogue. She asks Rogue to imprint herself on her and find their babies, Rogue accepts.

In Washington DC at the XSE headquarters, Sage debates with Iceman abouttapping into the mind of Malice to find Sinister.

In Chicago, Kitty's mayoral race heats up. After being attacked by Purity protestors, Kitty gives an impassioned speech about mutant/human relations and her goals as mayor. She is greeted with applause.

Meanwhile, at Sinister's HQ, Rogue's and Emma's children discuss their predicament. Sinister and Gambit watch and talk. Gambit is resigned to his position. He doesn't seem to like it but understands what he has done. Cable is fighting the Technarx's nannites. Shatterstar and Warpath have been assimilated. X-23, Wolverine, M, and Marvel Girl have all been captured.

Sinister then gets a call from Neverland about Mirage. She is calling out to Hela and projecting runes in her cell. Sinister agrees to have her terminated. Dani is killed and then awakens and whispers "Hela".

Simultaneosuly in Paris, Rogue is going through the files of European Union President Courtney Ross. She discovers a file on SInister containing an image of what he looked like before his tranformation. At the same time Sinister tells Gambit he wanted him by his side for that is where a son belongs . . . next to his father.

The End.

Review:

Very good issue IMO. The reveal of SInister's as Gambit's father was wonderful. As was Scott's call to the dead child's parents and his speech about Maddie. Kitty's speech was also very nice.

There were a few problems, the Emma/Rogue stuff was sort of confusing. And it seemed as if X-23 and M's dialogue ballons were mixed up (they were definately introduced incorrectly on page 2). But overall another good issue and a great maxi series so far.

Thoughts?

Sheldon

06-08-2005, 12:31 PM

Sinister as Gambit's father is hilarious!!!!!! Together that can rule the galaxy!

fishtaco

06-08-2005, 12:36 PM

delete post

xakko

06-08-2005, 12:43 PM

The Sinister-Gambit connection intrigues me. I know this is non-canon, but still... parentage seems to be fairly consistent across universes. Except for Earth X, which would mean that Colossus was Gambit's father, and Colossus kissed Rogue and that makes my head hurt...

Anyway. do we have to change all the Gambit relatives entries to reflect Sinister as "possible father"?

Char Aznable

06-08-2005, 01:10 PM

fishtaco

06-08-2005, 01:18 PM

Originally did'nt Claremont intend for Sinister to be a creation of a mutant named Nathan that was in the same orphanage as Scott? I seem to also recall something that Gambit was also meant to be a creation of this kid. If what I remember is true in the slightest it would seem that Claremont is going back to some of his original intentions though slightly altering them.You are correct about what Claremont was intending for Sinister's origin to be. If he retcons it into his way, then Ill be pissed.

Not sure about what he intended for Gambit's origin, but he ALWAYS intended for Gambit to be a traitor working for Sinister, who was supposed to corrupt the X-men from the inside, and turn them against each other, etc. But Claremont left, and the writers and editors and fans all loved Gambit the X-man, and so they dropped that. However, they revealed that Gambit did work for Sinister to gather the Mauraders, but he wasnt a traitor. He just did some horrible things in the past. Since CC is writing a non-canon book, he can make Gambit a traitor, and no one will complain because its non-canon. So apparently he's using his old intent.

Beast

06-08-2005, 01:20 PM

Great issue. Loved the Gambit/Sinsiter reveal. And I can't wait for the reveal of the 3rd Summers brother. X-Treme doesn't count in my opinion, as he'd be a step-brother. As for Maddy/Dust, I believe that is the real Maddy, not a Warskrull. Sinister probably made another copy to safeguard Scott. :)

McJoe

06-08-2005, 03:22 PM

Synopsis:At the same time Sinister tells Gambit he wanted him by his side for that is where a son belongs . . . next to his father.Maybe Chris is hoping no one will notice the similarity to Star Wars... :rolleyes:

Back in the day, I always suspected that Gambit was the third Summer's brother, mainly because of his energy-based power and the mystery behind his bloodline. Then they introduced the Adam-Xtreme dude and I pretty much stopped caring. I'm not really sure why it's so hugely significant whether someone's a Summers or not. Does that make you royalty or something?

Doom Hammer

06-08-2005, 03:35 PM

"What did Obi...er...Charles Xavier...tell you of your father?"

"He told me enough. He told me...wait, he didn't tell me anything about my family. No one ever really has. Is there a point to this, or are you just pretty much a jackass?"

"No, Remy. I am your father."

"Uuuuh...I call shenanigans."

Oh, lordy lordy, what is Claremont up to now?

What a wonderfully complex issue. Wolverine's squad is out...for some reason...something about X-Force...and Cable...and Kitty makes an inspiring speech.

"Ohmigod, you got hit in the head with a brick! Quickly, inspire the masses!"

"Are you @#$%ing high? I just got hit in the head WITH A BRICK. That @#$% hurts! Ow, ow, oh gggggaaawwwd it hurts! My head @#$%in' hurts! Go Cubs!"

Despite my poor attempts at comedy, I actually liked this issue. Scott's phone call and subsequent drinking was very dramatic and...genuine. Very human of the wooden man with laser eyes.

And fine, I'm genuinely interested in Gambit's brand new secret origin. If this is for real, I can't WAIT for it to be addressed in the MU prime.

As for Emma and Rogue, well, those girls just WON'T give up on Gay Chicken. ;)

Doom Hammer

06-08-2005, 05:18 PM

I think the letterer mixed up X-23 and M's lines. Think about it:

-On the first page, the names next to M and X-23 are mixed up. Rachel's and Logan's are fine, but M and X-23 are mixed up.

-Do you really see X-23 saying, "These were colleagues, m'sieu"? Or do you see the French-born M saying that?

-On page 3, M says to Wolverine that they are the trackers. Hmm, who are the trackers? X-23 and Wolverine (both feral mutants with hyper-senses), or M and Wolverine (not both feral mutants with supser senses)?

All of the other things also seem messed up. M speaks in short, sometimes gramatically-incorrect sentenses, and X-23 goes on with the proper etiquette and sentence structure.

Overall, whoops! ;)

Atom_basher

06-08-2005, 06:54 PM

DDM

06-09-2005, 08:29 AM

Scott's despair of losing a majority of the children & teachers as well as the mansion is taking a toll on him. He's drinking more. I love how he realized Scott should have never walked out on Madelyne Pryor & his son, Nathan, for Jean Grey X-Factor #1 while a disguised Madelyne Pryor, as Dust, looks on. Another good line was Emma's cutting words of not walk out on her just like he did Madelyne all those years ago.

Claremont showed a rather creative way for Rogue to absorb Emma Frost by doing it on the astral plane. The manga X-Men was probably a result of the drugs in Emma's body. And Rogue absorbed Emma so Hank could perform surgery on Frost. I'm not surprised Emma Frost is keeping tabs on "Courtney Ross," the current White Queen either.

How is Gambit Sinister's son? I suppose we'll find out next issue.

I want to see the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club show up too.

Doom Hammer

06-09-2005, 08:44 AM

The manga X-Men was probably a result of the drugs in Emma's body...

And the scenes in Cable's mind in Cable and Deadpool #11 and #12!

Claremont, you sly fox. I caught you. :p

Beast

06-09-2005, 08:47 AM

I do have to say I'm slightly disapointed by the 'My Neighbor Totoro' Beast scene. Claremont hyped it up so much, and then it wasn't really much of anything. Though I will admit, he does look rather cute like that. :D

The Fury

06-09-2005, 10:09 AM

HAHAHahahahahahaaaa

Manga X-men. Brilliant.

This was a good issue. Not much else to say.

Although the Mix up about X-23 and M was odd on the first few pages, but that is down to the Letterer, not the writer or artist.

Actually, no, it's down to the Editors.

ibrakeforchinwe

06-09-2005, 11:36 AM

How is Gambit Sinister's son? I suppose we'll find out next issue.

Perhaps the same way he was Maddie's father. I guess Gambit is the third Summers bro.

Vegetarian Goat

06-09-2005, 11:37 AM

Doom Hammer

06-09-2005, 11:42 AM

One thing struck me funny... Rogue seemed to recognize a picture of the de-transformed Sinister. Has she ever seen Gambit's father? Or are we, the audience, supposed to recognize him? Because i sure didn't...

Well...um...yeah, that's Sean Chen for you.

Sorry, but his art is reeeeeeally starting to wear on me.

(Sinister was probably supposed to resemble Gambit, and that's why Rogue flipped.)

And we've already seen Sinister de-transformed in the Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix. He didn't reallt look like that. But it's cool, I'll suspend a little disbelief. Whatev.

ibrakeforchinwe

06-09-2005, 11:54 AM

Sinister=Red eyes

Gambit=Red eyes

The Lucky One

06-09-2005, 12:25 PM

However, they revealed that Gambit did work for Sinister to gather the Mauraders, but he wasnt a traitor. He just did some horrible things in the past.

You raise a good point, but don't forget that that didn't actually happen; Gambit didn't lead the Marauders into the Morlock tunnels, no matter what kind of trick was played on Rogue to make her think he did in UXM #350. I wouldn't put it past Claremont to retcon the retcon, in the same way that Hobgoblin was eventually made Ned Leeds in the Spider-books by a different writer, but then Roger Stern returned years later and revealed him to actually be Roderick Kingsley, as originally intended. And, frankly, anything that retcons UXM #350 out of existence is more than alright with me.

-D

DDM

06-09-2005, 12:39 PM

You raise a good point, but don't forget that that didn't actually happen; Gambit didn't lead the Marauders into the Morlock tunnels, no matter what kind of trick was played on Rogue to make her think he did in UXM #350. I wouldn't put it past Claremont to retcon the retcon, in the same way that Hobgoblin was eventually made Ned Leeds in the Spider-books by a different writer, but then Roger Stern returned years later and revealed him to actually be Roderick Kingsley, as originally intended. And, frankly, anything that retcons UXM #350 out of existence is more than alright with me.

-D

So true. Scott Lobdell did his best to contradict Uncanny X-Men #210 that made Uncanny X-Men #350 redundant & anti-climactic. Chris Claremont will more than likely not only reveal Gambit's origin, but Sinister's true origin as well...

fishtaco

06-09-2005, 12:44 PM

So true. Scott Lobdell did his best to contradict Uncanny X-Men #210 that made Uncanny X-Men #350 redundant & anti-climactic. Chris Claremont will more than likely not only reveal Gambit's origin, but Sinister's true origin as well...Are you talking about the origin where he was created by some kid in the orphanage named Nathan? Because if so, Im going to be pissed, A) because Sinisters origin is fine and shouldnt be tampered with, and B) I really dont like Chris's origin for him. But its his character, and he has the right. Im just not going to be happy with it.

DDM

06-09-2005, 12:53 PM

Are you talking about the origin where he was created by some kid in the orphanage named Nathan? Because if so, Im going to be pissed, A) because Sinisters origin is fine and shouldnt be tampered with, and B) I really dont like Chris's origin for him. But its his character, and he has the right. Im just not going to be happy with it.

Sinister is not created by some kid. Claremont originally planned for Sinister to be that kid, Nathan, at the orphanage. However, Gambit was created by the same kid who became Sinister...

We'll see next issue.

Tony Bang

06-09-2005, 03:39 PM

Sinister is not created by some kid. Claremont originally planned for Sinister to be that kid, Nathan, at the orphanage. However, Gambit was created by the same kid who became Sinister...

We'll see next issue.

I would be hard to retcon his orgin since he was shown in WWII (Weapon X #13 or #14), or do The End series take place in a different universe?

Ryan K

06-09-2005, 03:47 PM

I would be hard to retcon his orgin since he was shown in WWII (Weapon X #13 or #14), or do The End series take place in a different universe?

X-Men: The End (and all of the other The End stories) are simply What If . . . stories. They don't really count. Sinister's isn't really officially considered Gambit's father at this point in time unless it's ever mentioned in one of the core titles. Think of the whole thing as just another possible future for the X-Men.

Doom Hammer

06-09-2005, 03:51 PM

X-Men: The End (and all of the other The End stories) are simply What If . . . stories. They don't really count. Sinister's isn't really officially considered Gambit's father at this point in time unless it's ever mentioned in one of the core titles. Think of the whole thing as just another possible future for the X-Men.

But this title has been used as tool to indicate upcoming events, like Sage's going rogue, X-23's first name, Juggernaut's return, Nocturne's importance as a core character, etc.

Expect to see Sinister and Gambit's relationship brought up in the core titles...

Anon_me

06-09-2005, 04:08 PM

Speaking of mislabeled speech ballons. The one panel where we see Cable...Shaitan was saying Cable was resisting Technarx's nannites and "my" spells; was that suppose to be said by the magic girl since I don't think Shaitan was suppose to have magical powers.

Beast

06-09-2005, 04:09 PM

Some comments from Chris Claremont:
Dear Threaza (et al):

All I can say (and you had to know this one was coming) is read next issue, where a great deal will be made clear.

Also, I feel obliged to point out that -- as with the scene where Remy and Sinister are sitting identically (which I'm glad some folkks actually noticed) -- you have to think a little about the characters, how they are, what their motivations might be and what their modus operandi is, to figure out the "whys" of things. The clues are actually all here, which I suspect may seem more obvious once you have some answers next issue.

Mind you, having answers and liking them, those are two very different animals.

Moving along -- re Anna/Emma, it's the astral plane where someone like Emma can indulge herself in relative privacy. Remember, Jean (so far as she knows) is dead, and who else in the X-Men has the skill, or the lack of discretion or just plain smarts, to pry uninvited. As for the "kiss", this was a purely psychic contact (of such intensity and focus that for all intents and purposes it functioned as a physical one to trigger the Imprinting -- which of course will have some especially irksome repercussions: Rogue as a blond, perhaps, and/or Emma with body art ?), a figment if you will of the imagination. And let's face it, in Emma's imagination, anything's possible.

As for Ray's powers, ten years have passed in her life. When we think of how powers evolve in the relatively limited time frame of the regular issues, is it so hard to presume a further extrapolation / improvement in them as the characters themselves really do get older?

Sorry you didn't like Kitty's speech, Diane, I'm kind'a proud of it, especially the last couplet. So, Sam Seaborn I'm not.

Not-quite finally, apologies for the M / X / Luc-Jon foo-bars. Our bad, we're sorry. To err is not only human, it's very Marvel.

Finally, the kids are Bekka Raven and Olivier Luc-Jon LeBeau. Characteristically of course, Bekka takes after her Dad and Olivier his Mom, just to be contrary.

Hope this helps.

Cordially,
Chris Claremont
C.C. regarding M showing up in the regular 616 stores.
Dear M:

Well, now that Chris Bachalo is penciling Uncanny, who knows who is gonna show up down the line? BUt they'll look great, that's a lock!

As for all those pesky Gambit / Sinister questions, only 4 weks to go for the answers.

Cordially,
Chris Claremont

Ryan K

06-09-2005, 05:18 PM

Well, now that Chris Bachalo is penciling Uncanny, who knows who is gonna show up down the line?

Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee!

Doom Hammer

06-09-2005, 05:20 PM

Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee! Jubilee!

...Hmm...maybe Archangel? ;)

Beast

06-09-2005, 05:23 PM

Jubilee gets written out of existance by House of M...

Ok, I'm just saying that to be mean.

Ant-Man

06-09-2005, 06:12 PM

Jubilee gets written out of existance by House of M...

Ok, I'm just saying that to be mean.

Hey now Beast, you are always jumping my case for being mean :( . And I used to look up to you ;) .

Beast

06-09-2005, 06:17 PM

I was just giving Ryan Kirk the business, he knows I love Jub Jub. :D

Ant-Man

06-09-2005, 06:19 PM

I was just giving Ryan Kirk the business, he knows I love Jub Jub. :D

I see. It's a double standard around here ;) .

Doom Hammer

06-09-2005, 06:30 PM

*Extinguishes flames*

fishtaco

06-09-2005, 08:46 PM

Jubilee!Very likely. It was hinted a month or two ago that she will be joining the XSE. It sucks now that since her mini is over, our dose of Jubilee has been a cameo in New X-men, and a flashback in X-men.

Blackcat

06-10-2005, 02:00 AM

The End seems a possible future adventure,. That doesn't mean it will or will not happen I guess. It is nice to see thou that some characters are planned for the future and some not (so far) Hub working for the X-Men and Cecelia survived Neverland, nice nice nice. Not many new Mutants or new Hellions except Dust (who was killed by Maddie). I really like the book.

So, does any of you now the sub-title of Book 3? (Book 1: Dreamers and Demons, Book 2: Heroes & Martyrs)

.

Holland

06-10-2005, 05:49 AM

Ryan K

06-10-2005, 10:51 AM

The End seems a possible future adventure,. That doesn't mean it will or will not happen I guess. It is nice to see thou that some characters are planned for the future and some not (so far) Hub working for the X-Men and Cecelia survived Neverland, nice nice nice. Not many new Mutants or new Hellions except Dust (who was killed by Maddie). I really like the book.

Prodigy and Wither were both seen (and killed) in Book One.

DrDoomX

06-10-2005, 02:02 PM

I enjoyed this issue. This is one of the books I look forward to the most. First of all the whole Gambit and Sinister thing is a little confusing at first but I know everything will be cleared up next ish. I liked the manga x-men. It was pretty cool, and i wondered if Chen drew them as well?

I liked how Logans team fell into Sinisters trap, and I wonder what is going to happen to Cable? He is infected with that Techno virus.....
I like how Claremont is using each issue to advance plots of different characters then all, and the way things are going plot wise, it seems he is already building to what appears to be an epic Climax...

Great stuff...

8/10

malephoenix

06-10-2005, 11:21 PM

This book gets sillier every month...
I like Claremont but hes just throwing everything in the pot and mixing it round. The end result isn't coming out too well imo.
Aren't they a month late on that cover? Neither of those characters appeared in the book yet they were prominately in the last one?

Wolverine's headgear is absolutely hideous. Actually 90% of the costumes in this book are hideous.
And Sinister is Gambit's father? Um... yeah, whatever.

Silly, silly, silly.

Thanks, Holland. Being new here, I didn't want to come across as someone who just gripes; I was really waiting for someone else to mention they didn't like this issue. (I'm really not usually this negative. If any of you read my stuff over @ HCRealms, you know that. So that's only deeper evidence into how hard this struck me.)

So does no one here really say negative things about books? Because as soon as I read this issue, I couldn't wait to get online and talk with people about how bad it was. These are a couple posts of mine from another site, mentioning just how much this book hurt my brain.

X-Men: The End, Book II, #4 - Rated ,,:"; -

That's right. This issue was so bad, I had to invent a system of symblos in order to express the degree of badness. The lowest points:

Emma is freaking out and then starts seeing Doc Reyes and Beast as plush toys, then has a psychic encounter with Rogue in which Rachael Summers (or Dark Phoenix) is chained as a pet for Emma.

Then Rogue imprints Emma, and in all the ways they could have done this, it was with a kiss. (Now THIS is STUPID. EVEN if it would somehow make sense for this to happen at all, it DOESN'T make sense that Rogue would kiss Emma. She doesn't like her. There's no reasont to imprint this way when a hand on the shoulder will do.)
Stupid stupid stupid.

Deathbird and Whazzerface are on the cover, and NOwhere in the pages.

Kitty does a stupid inspiring speech after getting attacked with a brick - and then basically says, "Go Cubs!"

Ow ow ow ow ow stupid stupid stupid. MUST- ergh! - invent Time TraVEL and - ah! - go bacK and prevent tHis MaxiSerieS froM HAppenING!!!!

stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid

Then a few other posters chimed in, one (who also comes here, on occasion) who said that he alread dropped it because of how poorly written it is, and a couple others just agreeing about how bad this particular issue was. I added this post later:

I forgot to mention the biggest lame-osity of them all;

-Both X-23 and M (Monet from Gen X) are in this book, and they are completely reversed throughout the entire story!!! X-23 speaks some French to Wolvie and M claims to have great tracking abilities. Understand, it wasn't JUST mixed-up word baloons, though. The best way to explain it was to say that they had somehow ended up in each other's body. M was white and X-23 was dark-skinned and wearing an old Gen X uniform. Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.

(Oh, and Sinister is revealed to be Gambit's dad. Thanks for the reminder, Doombot 3.1)

The series is on my pull list, so I had to pay for this issue since it was in my box already. But I canceled my subscription to it and as soon as I got home and read it, I regreted not having canceled already.

It's so aweful.

This series is ssssssoooooooo BAD....

I think this maxi might actually be the cause of world hunger, war, and disease...

Um, does anyone else have a problem at all with these things? One or two problems in an arc, I can understand, but this stuff has just been trash since Ali uttered the terrible phrase, "...totally bingo!" (THIS is how they talk in the future? Wow. At least the slang in the old 2099 series had some believability...)

Somebody please shoot this series and put it out of its misery.

Beast

06-11-2005, 11:58 AM

Just stop reading it then, Malephoenix. Clearly you don't like it, so why torture yourself. We don't have anything bad to say about it, because we happen to like it. Yes, the names and wordballoon mix-up was bad, but chalk that up to lazy quality control. The stuff got flipped before printing, and never fixed. Claremont is doing a fine job in my opinion, of telling 'The Final X-Men Story'. With the wealth of characters and long running plots that need to be wrapped up, I think he's tackling it well. :)

The Fury

06-11-2005, 01:57 PM

For those people saying about the mistake with M and X-23. Ingore it. Obviously the letterer made a mistake of who was who in that one scene anda total of 3 speach bubbles were positioned wrong. There's more of a story then what was said there.

ibrakeforchinwe

06-11-2005, 02:29 PM

There's more of a story then what was said there.

Body swap?

The Fury

06-11-2005, 02:32 PM

Body swap?
:D

Yeah, sure, why not?

Holland

06-11-2005, 02:41 PM

Thanks, Holland. Being new here, I didn't want to come across as someone who just gripes; I was really waiting for someone else to mention they didn't like this issue. Hey malephoenix
I don't think anyone on the board would treat our honest opinion on the book as bad. Seems like a good board from what I've seen so far.
I like to give my opinion on every book I read and my opinion on this is, its going dowhill fast.
I don't mean to offend Claremont fans and I'm certainly not looking for a fight :) I'm just expressing my view and getting a bit of diversity on the thread.

I agree with the other posters about the M/X-23 thing though.
This clearly wasn't Claremonts fault and shouldn't come in to the fact that you don't like the writing.

I'm not really enjoying the book but I will keep going because I am a Claremont fan and respect what he's doing here so will continue to support it. The art is excellent and while it is rather pointless having every character ever show up, it is nice to see a few old faces :)

Atom_basher

06-12-2005, 12:54 AM

Man, i gotta say, i read the issue and loverd it, but that word bubble mistake really annoyed me to no end

The Fury

06-12-2005, 07:03 AM

So, new question.

Who haven't we seen yet? What dominant X-men realted characters have yet to make an appearence? Due to the fact we are more then half way through the story, I would have expected to see nearly everyone?

But we have yet to see (to my knowledge), and who are big X-men characters:

Dazzler
Madrox
Sunfire
And
Chamber (and i really want to know what he's doing).

Blackcat

06-12-2005, 07:29 AM

The Fury

06-12-2005, 07:37 AM

Madrox was with Siryn and Slipstream seen with the slaves.

.
Oh yeah, forgot Madrox appearence in the first issue.

but the rest still stand.

I'm hoping Chamber's evloved into an energy being, myself.

Jack Flash

06-12-2005, 08:09 AM

we haven't seen

Colossus
Forge
Jubilee
Amanda Sefton
Captain Britain
Meggan

unless my brain melted and I forgot an appearance.

The Fury

06-12-2005, 08:20 AM

we haven't seen

Colossus
Forge
Jubilee
Amanda Sefton
Captain Britain
Meggan

I actually question if we will ever see the bottom 3. X-men connected or not, none of them have been a member of one of the more X-men realted teams. Captain Britain, has his own independent past andaside from the X-men and he should remain there.

Your right about Forge. Unless he was on Genosha in an eariler issue.

We have seen Jubilee she is a movie producer is LA.

And Colossus is dead. (someone did say that I think), Sorry Jack, we did have Kid Colossus though who was apparently Colossus son, but he's dead now.

Jack Flash

06-12-2005, 08:25 AM

Have we seen Banshee too?

and oops on Jubes. I remember that now.

DDM

06-12-2005, 08:50 AM

Have we seen Banshee too?

and oops on Jubes. I remember that now.

Banshee was killed & replaced by a Warskrull. The Banshee Warskrull hurt Emma Frost.

ibrakeforchinwe

06-12-2005, 09:03 AM

Warskrull smash!

Brian M.

06-12-2005, 10:48 AM

Great issue I think. I love the reactions by Cyclops and his explanation on why his love for Maddie wasn't just a replica of his love for Jean, it actually made sense. On a side note hasn't Gambit's father already been revealed?

Fastballspecial

06-12-2005, 12:04 PM

I really like this series even with the mistakes such as the bubble goof.(No bigggie really). I hated to see Dani die that way. It really bothered me. I hated to see Wolvie caught so easy wanted to see him get some payback. (Been reading Millar to much lately I guess.) For once I like the portrayal of Sinister. A protector of the mutant gene when it looks like they want to extinguish it. I am happy to continue with this series to see it to the end. Really will we ever see such a large cast used in one book ever again? Enjoy it for what it is.

The Kitty Pryde dialogue could have been better, but I did like the Cubs zinger.

BTW Collossus isnt dead just critical from Warskrull wound unless I missed something. I too would like to see Amanda Sefton again, but I doubt she will make an occurance as she is not a mutant and hasnt had much air time in years.

DDM

06-12-2005, 12:21 PM

I really like this series even with the mistakes such as the bubble goof.(No bigggie really). I hated to see Dani die that way. It really bothered me.

Look at the page carefully. After Dani supposedly dies, she reawakens saying "Hela!" Dani is not dead yet.

The Fury

06-12-2005, 12:22 PM

I hated to see Dani die that way. It really bothered me.
I don;t think She is dead. Claremont seems to be setting something else up with her, else her death could have been like any other so far, died in a fight. But her part seem bigger then that. Also keep in mind, she died and then awoke and muttered 'Hela'.

EDIT: Damn, beaten by DDM.
BTW Collossus isnt dead just critical from Warskrull wound unless I missed something. I too would like to see Amanda Sefton again, but I doubt she will make an occurance as she is not a mutant and hasnt had much air time in years.
No you didn't you are right, I just read back in issue #2.

And Amanda appeared in one of the Nightcrawler issues, but like you said, I duobt we'll see her, She lives in Limbo, and probably will not show up.

Atom_basher

06-12-2005, 01:08 PM

Look at the page carefully. After Dani supposedly dies, she reawakens saying "Hela!" Dani is not dead yet.

I think her saying hela was her muttering her dying word

Holland

06-12-2005, 01:12 PM

I think her saying hela was her muttering her dying wordNo, I think she's being ressurected.
Her eyes roll back in her head as if to signify her death then they suddenly come alive again and she whispers hela.

Beast

06-12-2005, 01:28 PM

CC addresses a few complaints regarding Gambit's behavior in 'The End'.
Dear Folks:

Re Gambit -- well, actually, re lots of characters and circumstances in this series: one of the advantages of having such a large canvas to paint on (large schoolyard to play in) is that some time can be taken to present characters in a less than linear fashion. Please remember to consider context as much as anything else when reviewing action. Don't necessarly assume the writer is unilaterally screwing over the character, bear in mind there may be a contextual reason as to why someone acts in what may be considered by the reader to be an uncharacteristic and / or improper manner. Think of the role they're playing, in the action and in their lives. For example, Scott may want to be with Emma more than he can say but if he gives in to that impulse, what happens to the rest of the team, who are also counting on him?

Food for thought, maybe?

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

Brian M.

06-12-2005, 01:46 PM

Claremont always seems to have a great sense of the characters. His Cyclop's has always been Leader first Lover/Friend second.

malephoenix

06-13-2005, 09:27 AM

I agree with the other posters about the M/X-23 thing though.
This clearly wasn't Claremonts fault and shouldn't come in to the fact that you don't like the writing.

@ Holland:
The balloon mix-up wasn't something that I was meaning as a reason to not like the writing. It was just a reason for not liking this particular issue, even more so than the rest. I really liked the concept of the series, but seeing it be so bad, I just had to finally give in and cancel.

@ Beast:
In the posts I copied from the other site, I dropped this title that day, even before reading this issue. However, I wasn't getting on here to just mindlessly gripe and whine; I have some serious frustrations with this, and I was hoping to have some discussion about it. (I might not have used *scholarly* words and most of the way I phrased things might have been tongue-in-cheek, but I wasn't insulting anyone here for liking the series, and I wasn't using unnecessary language, etc.) I've just been looking for a good comic book forum, and was hoping to have some dialogue here about the book. I'm not one of those people who thinks everyone needs to see things my way about a comic, but I have been craving some intelligent/humrous/insightful/unique discussion on books as of late.

Fede

06-14-2005, 06:20 AM

i have two questions, hope someone can give me some answer

what is the relation between emma and cortney ross at this point?

is rachel under emma's powers?

The Fury

06-14-2005, 06:39 AM

i have two questions, hope someone can give me some answer

what is the relation between emma and cortney ross at this point?

is rachel under emma's powers?
Your questions are confusing. To me anyway. Becuase there's been no hint ever of the second.

At this point 'Courtney Ross' (aka Sat-Yr-9) is President of The EU, and has an office in Paris. She is still White Queen of the Hell Fire club. Which Emma once was, that is the only connection. Ross is White Queen, Emma once was.

Rachel is not under Emma's powers. She wouldn't allow it and Rachel is probably as powerful telepath as Emma so.

P.S. BRITAIN SHALL NEVER BOW TO FRANCE. British leader or not. *Starts muttering to self*

Fede

06-14-2005, 06:50 AM

Your questions are confusing. To me anyway. Becuase there's been no hint ever of the second.

At this point 'Courtney Ross' (aka Sat-Yr-9) is President of The EU, and has an office in Paris. She is still White Queen of the Hell Fire club. Which Emma once was, that is the only connection. Ross is White Queen, Emma once was.

Rachel is not under Emma's powers. She wouldn't allow it and Rachel is probably as powerful telepath as Emma so.

P.S. BRITAIN SHALL NEVER BOW TO FRANCE. British leader or not. *Starts muttering to self*

uh, ok. i thought that when emma said "i already have a fool at my feet" she was referring to rachel. who's that enchained girl? she has the phoenix symbol in her necklace (or whatever it is).

thanks!!

The Fury

06-14-2005, 07:00 AM

uh, ok. i thought that when emma said "i already have a fool at my feet" she was referring to rachel. who's that enchained girl? she has the phoenix symbol in her necklace (or whatever it is).

thanks!!
Ah, what you saw there was a telepathic illusion created inside Emma's mind while linked with Rogue. That was Jean Grey at her feet.

Well, that's what I pressumed anyyay.

Fede

06-14-2005, 03:29 PM

Ah, what you saw there was a telepathic illusion created inside Emma's mind while linked with Rogue. That was Jean Grey at her feet.

Well, that's what I pressumed anyyay.

we'll have to wait and see, but you're right when u say that rachel wouldnt let emma do that

:confused:

DavidQ!

06-14-2005, 05:20 PM

Oh god! Claremont is so cheesy its really pathetic. Gambit is the son of sinister badly done. Plus I am begining to hate lifegaurd. (Didnt think that was possible.) Down with claremont!

fishtaco

06-14-2005, 05:26 PM

Oh god! Claremont is so cheesy its really pathetic. Gambit is the son of sinister badly done. Plus I am begining to hate lifegaurd. (Didnt think that was possible.) Down with claremont!Can you maybe give an actual intellectual reason as to why you think the Gambit/Sinister connection is "cheesy", or "bad"? Because I've heard you say "down with Claremont" at least 200 times, and it's not contributing to the discussion in any way. If you hate Claremont, thats fine. I think its silly to like X-men but not Claremont, but its fine. But if you are going to call things cheesy and pathetic or whatever why dont you say why you think that? "Pathetic" is a word with a strong meaning.

But "Down with Claremont" isnt something that is appreciated. "Down with Whedon", or "down with Morrison", or even "down with Yoshida" arent appreciated either. :evilangry

And why are you talking about Lifeguard? She wasnt even in this issue.

Neolucifer

06-15-2005, 06:45 PM

GRRR damn you Claremont !!! Cant you see the real truth !!!! Sinister is the father of Colossus !!! Just take out the gem and look at his painted face!! :D :D

More seriously i had major doubts with #1 of the first book , then it kept getting better and better , and now while feeling rushed , Xmen the end is definitely great stuff . After all with so many non explained plot points accumulated over the years , you would need as much years to untangle them at a more decent pace .

Bishop_Proudstar

06-16-2005, 10:25 AM

Oh god! Claremont is so cheesy its really pathetic. Gambit is the son of sinister badly done. Plus I am begining to hate lifegaurd. (Didnt think that was possible.) Down with claremont!

You must know that Claremont wouldn't waste such a revelation as Sinister being Gambit's father for this "X-Men: The End" series...

(...especially this early in this series)

Sinister is a "shape-shiftter" and a liar afterall..

Sinister cannot conceive healthy/normal children. It's the source of his coldness (and his adoption of The Grey/Summers/Dane Family Tree).

CodeMonkey

06-16-2005, 07:25 PM

Another sub-par issue of this series in my opinion.

This book improved noticeably once Claremont stopped jumping from plot to plot every 2 pages. However, the huge whiny rant of Cyclops about how he messed up just seemed forced. He's had plenty of time to come to terms with things and to do it now was done solely to set up Madelynne having a change of heart as she overheard his revelations.

The random Anime characters from Emma's hallucinations came out of left field and really served no purpose.

And the "revelation" at the end had zero impact on me. I'm finding my excitement at finding out how things "end" rapidly dwindling as more and more is being tossed into the pot to try and wrap up as many dangling plotlines as possible.

Surprisingly enough, the bubble switches of M and X-23 didn't bother me at all unlike with a lot of people. Go figure.