A litmus test: Is prostitution intrinsically wrong?

[Gideon Quinn]

Is prostitution intrinsically wrong if you negate "false morality", which is a term I conjured up that represents morality that our societies subliminally infuse in our minds and convince us into thinking are our own opinions?

[Alex]

Is trading your body for material goods in exchange for sex wrong?
I see girls doing it every night in bars, OH!

[JeffreyWKramer]

No, prostitution is not inherently wrong, at least in concept. In practice, it is often not a good thing, as people are forced into it, do it unsafely, etc., but to use those examples to say it is inherently wrong is like using drunk drivers and road-ragers to declare driving as inherently wrong.

If a person chooses for him- or herself to trade sex for money, that's his or her choice, and I'm all for prostitution involving consenting adults to be legal.

[howyadoin]

Is trading your body for material goods in exchange for sex wrong?
I see girls doing it every night in bars, OH!"Look, I'm acting like a lesbian! Buy me a drink!"

[JeffreyWKramer]

"Look, I'm acting like a lesbian! Buy me a drink!"

We know those alleged lesbians are just looking for attention or money.

[Nitmo]

No, prostitution is not inherently wrong, at least in concept. In practice, it is often not a good thing, as people are forced into it, do it unsafely, etc., but to use those examples to say it is inherently wrong is like using drunk drivers and road-ragers to declare driving as inherently wrong.

If a person chooses for him- or herself to trade sex for money, that's his or her choice, and I'm all for prostitution involving consenting adults to be legal.

Well, that all depends on how you view sex. In Sunday school, I was taught that sex is God's gift to married couples. Others believe it's the ultimate act of joining your two souls. Some wiccans and pagans even use sex as a tool in casting spells to create a power push for what the spell is intended.

The key to your question Manch, is how sacred is the act of sex?

And a hypothetical for Dr. K.: Say your wife decided to become a prostitute and there was nothing you could do or say to change her mind, how would you react? (I hope I'm not being offensive, if I am, I apologize. I'm just curious as to what your response would be considering your disposition towards sex. Again, I apologize if I'm being offensive.)

[Phrozen]

Well Rousseau said that selling yourself into slavery is alright since it is an act of free will but extending that into forthcoming generations or other members of the community was wrong. (Not that I agree with Rousseau on this, the man had some rather strange ideas.)

[Guts/Batman]

I don't think it is.

If they are two (or more) consenting adults, they should not be stopped from prostitution.

[Gideon Quinn]

I don't think it is.

If they are two (or more) consenting adults, they should not be stopped from prostitution.I have the same view of assisted suicide.

[Guts/Batman]

I have the same view of assisted suicide.

As do i.

While i see the dangers of prostitution, i think that they could be eliminated if people are not complete morons when it comes to sex.

[Gideon Quinn]

As do i.

While i see the dangers of prostitution, i think that they could be eliminated if people are not complete morons when it comes to sex.The same principle could be said of narcotics.

[Nitmo]

Yes, but remember, people are stupid

[Rachel Grey]

No problems here. It just needs to be properly regulated so that the workers are clean and safe.

[Guts/Batman]

Yes, but remember, people are stupid


Ahhhhhh yes...the fundamental truth that i believe THE most.

[Samurai]

I'd say no. It's not the most respectable profession, and it can be dangerous, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "intrinsically wrong".

[west3man]

Is prostitution intrinsically wrong if you negate "false morality", which is a term I conjured up that represents morality that our societies subliminally infuse in our minds and convince us into thinking are our own opinions?
I just don't see telling someone they can give away as much of something as they want to, but that they can't sell it.

EDITED because *I* was the one thinking about vaginas. :p

old text - "The fact that we're talking about vaginas doesn't change anything."

[traxler]

The fact that we're talking about vaginas doesn't change anything.
We're not.
Could be bums.
Gay prostitution's booming.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Is prostitution intrinsically wrong if you negate "false morality", which is a term I conjured up that represents morality that our societies subliminally infuse in our minds and convince us into thinking are our own opinions?

Well I'm the only one so far but I'll say yeah, it is intrisically wrong. Of course I find a lot of things intrinsically wrong. And yeah, this comes from my religious beliefs too. Well that and the fact that every prostitute I've seen (I don't live in the greatest part of town, if I go down a couple of blocks and turn left they have those motels that charge by the hour) is ugly as hell.

[Johnny Morningstar]

By my calculations, a non-sexual affair I'm currently having has so far cost me $2,323,2324,542 which is more than a $50 hooker.

Who's the real criminal?

[Gideon Quinn]

By my calculations, a non-sexual affair I'm currently having has so far cost me $2,323,2324,542 which is more than a $50 hooker.

Who's the real criminal?Did you save any money on your car insurance by switching to Geico?

[Johnny Morningstar]

I wish there was insurance protection against forced abstention. I could get a settlement on lost wages and a hand job!

[JeffreyWKramer]

And a hypothetical for Dr. K.: Say your wife decided to become a prostitute and there was nothing you could do or say to change her mind, how would you react? (I hope I'm not being offensive, if I am, I apologize. I'm just curious as to what your response would be considering your disposition towards sex. Again, I apologize if I'm being offensive.)
It depends on the circumstances, really. I have friends who have engaged in prostitution at one time or another, some for good reasons and in relatively safe ways, some not. Sometimes it's a reasonable choice.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes, but remember, people are stupid

And this is especially true of those who think they have the right to tell other adults what to do, make decisions for them or restrict their decisions.

[Tom]

I just don't see telling someone they can give away as much of something as they want to, but that they can't sell it.

The fact that we're talking about vaginas doesn't change anything.
*ahem*

Not all prostitutes have vaginas.

[Gaz]

*ahem*

Not all prostitutes have vaginas.
You have a confession to make, Tom? ;)

[west3man]

We're not.
Could be bums.
Gay prostitution's booming.
*trips, falls, ... gets back up*

Yeah. You caught me slippin'.

[Tom]

You have a confession to make, Tom? ;)
Made that one a looong time ago.

[west3man]

*ahem*

Not all prostitutes have vaginas.
trax beatcha to it, but I can understand wanting to represent.

[Perry Holley]

You have a confession to make, Tom? ;)Heh, that's right, you haven't been around here that long...

Let's just say Tom's got some stories to tell.

[Typo Lad]

Let's just say Tom's got some stories to tell.

Ask him about Dr. Leather sometime...

That said, is it "wrong"?

Inherrently "wrong"?

First, define "wrong".

Oh, then define "prostitution".

[Donald M.]

It depends on the circumstances, really. I have friends who have engaged in prostitution at one time or another, some for good reasons and in relatively safe ways, some not. Sometimes it's a reasonable choice.

Damn, I thought your answer was gonna be, "Only if I get to be her pimp."

By the way, though I'm not married, that is my answer to the same question.

[For the Good of X]

Your opinion of prostitution most likely depends on your opinion of sex, which relies heavily on your opinions of religion, society, karma, etc.

Prostitution as a financial business transaction between to people (I pay you $20 for a bj.) is likely not intrinsically wrong, but all else that accompanies the transaction blurs the clearness of right or wrong.

And broader definitions of prostitute make the matter less simple. For example, I've never accepted a cash payment for sexual interaction, but I've certainly acted/behaved in sexual manners that resulted in favorable outcomes/results for me. We've likely all done that to some extent, perhaps without even realizing.

[traxler]

I've never accepted a cash payment for sexual interaction,
cheques?
Credit card?

Ok, I would go further, and say that it's almost impossible to avoid;
it's almost always a "trade" of some kind, if you think about it.

But I am in fact often against prostitution; apart from sex-slaves
(enforced prostitution) I think most hookers are just lazy;
at least the ones I know anyway.

And prostitutes are rarely paid for the shag, but to leave afterwards.
someone else's line, mangled by me.


I should make it clear I'm talking about male prostitutes here:
Damn, can't believe I made the same pratfall as West3man!

[macul]

I don't see it as wrong, so long as we are talking about adults here. There should probably be some regulation behind it as well I suppose. Not that I enjoy government intervention, but we are talking about the possible spread of disease here.

[K'Nort]

I've never considered it wrong, no. Damned dangerous, though.

Edit: I'm female, by the way. This is the type of thread where it's worth mentioning.

[Shellhead]

I think prostitution should be legalized and regulated like it is in Nevada or Amsterdam, and I thought that long before I ever called an escort service. On the other hand, I think that cheating on your spouse or significant other is wrong though not necessarily a matter for the courts, so ideally both the prostitute and the customer should be single. In the U.S., a disproportionate number of poor people are single mothers and their kids, and at least half of the escorts that I met were single mothers. If they were victims, the victimization is what drove them to prostitution as a solution to their problems.

[Christopher O]

Prostitution isn't intrinsically wrong. Individuals should have the right to use and even abuse their bodies, if they so choose. I think it's utter BS that prostitution and even marijuana aren't legalized in the US. Those are two illegal industries that, if legalized and regulated, would result in more money for the US government and more time for law enforcement agencies to go after the real criminals.

[Nitmo]

You have a confession to make, Tom? ;)

You never heard the Dr. Leather story?

[Guts/Batman]

Prostitution isn't intrinsically wrong. Individuals should have the right to use and even abuse their bodies, if they so choose. I think it's utter BS that prostitution and even marijuana aren't legalized in the US. Those are two illegal industries that, if legalized and regulated, would result in more money for the US government and more time for law enforcement agencies to go after the real criminals.


The moral sense of this country, right ly or wrongly, will not let that happen. Especially anytimne during the next 3 years.

[Michael P]

No, but I wouldn't want to see it expand beyond freelance and mom-and-pop operations if it was legalized.

[K'Nort]

mom-and-pop operations

I really don't want to think about that in context.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Well; I can't justify outlawing Prostitution, I suppose if thats what someone wants to do they have the right to do it.

On the otherhand assisted suicide seems to ripe for potential "corruption" if you will and isn't something I would really trust in the hands of individuals or the goverment.

[DarkBlade]

Nope.


~DB

[DarkBlade]

I really don't want to think about that in context.
I had the same reaction...

[Alex]

"Look, I'm acting like a lesbian! Buy me a drink!"
Faux lesbians are hotter then real lesbians on a whole, go them.

[mgs]

I believe it is, yes.

[Puma]

if the individual is a consenting adult who choses to engage in sex for money, fine.

[Slappy san]

You never heard the Dr. Leather story?

I've been for what...8 years...and I dont remember that story. :(

[Slappy san]

Faux lesbians are hotter then real lesbians on a whole, go them.

because really lesbians dont seem to team up in bars?


EDIT: I should have stuck with "because real lesbians arent hot". :)

[howyadoin]

Faux lesbians are hotter then real lesbians on a whole, go them.Only in the sense that you'd actually have a shot at sleeping with them.

Beyond that, I know quite a few smokin' hot lesbians.

[Brad Curran]

Only in the sense that you'd actually have a shot at sleeping with them.

Does Alex thing in any other sense? I'm seriously wondering. Because I have my doubts.

As for the question in the thread, no, I don't believe it's intrinsically wrong, for reasons mentioned here, and I would be in favor of legalising it. That said, I don't think I'd ever patronize one, and I don't think it's a particularly noble profession. Unless they're ninja hookers, like in Sin City. Then it's different. Seriously, though, I do find the consenting adults argument trumps any objection I could have.

[ghostrider666]

Legalize it, regulate it.
Put it back in the brothels & off the streets.

[Christopher O]

The moral sense of this country, right ly or wrongly, will not let that happen. Especially anytimne during the next 3 years.
A fact that has escaped me, thank you, but you don't have to remind me. ;)

[Gaz]

You never heard the Dr. Leather story?
Apparantly not.
Remember, despite my awesome post count, I've not even been here a year. I didn't even know about Jeff's kinky side for about half that time.

[Guts/Batman]

A fact that has escaped me, thank you, but you don't have to remind me. ;)

lol anytime

Would legalizing prostitiution legalize pimping at the same time?

[Shellhead]

The moral sense of this country, right ly or wrongly, will not let that happen. Especially anytimne during the next 3 years.

And yet Nevada remains a popular vacation destination.

[Dizzy D]

lol anytime

Would legalizing prostitiution legalize pimping at the same time?

I think that legalizing prostitution would take the pimp out of the equation if anything.

[Typo Lad]

I think that legalizing prostitution would take the pimp out of the equation if anything.

Hardly.

They'd just be called "managers".

[Fenris]

Is prostitution intrinsically wrong if you negate "false morality", which is a term I conjured up that represents morality that our societies subliminally infuse in our minds and convince us into thinking are our own opinions?

Ummm...

Well, my basic answer to your question is "yes." But I'm kind of distracted by two questions myself:

1) A litmus test for what?
2) How does anyone negate false morality? By definition, it's something that you honestly believe is your own opinion.

[discostu]

Is prostitution intrinsically wrong if you negate "false morality", which is a term I conjured up that represents morality that our societies subliminally infuse in our minds and convince us into thinking are our own opinions?
consensual "crimes" are not crimes. 'nuff said.

[discostu]

Hardly.

They'd just be called "managers".
yeah, but a prostitute union wouldn't get smacked with an alligator skin boot.

[Rabid Trekkie]

yeah, but a prostitute union wouldn't get smacked with an alligator skin boot.

They will if I have anything to say about it! :evilsmile

[heretic]

I get into long-winded debates with my sister about this, but I see the associated pathologies/crimes (kidnapping, rape, slavery) as seperate issues from the basic sex-for-cash issue.

Do not get me wrong, many who are involved in prostitution are either under duress (either from pimps, drug habits, or the threat of starvation) or have serious emotional/self-esteem issues. However the continued illegality makes it hard to counter the root problems, and there are those who make a rational decision to sell thier booty without any of the pressures mentioned.

HTG

[Paul McEnery]

I get into long-winded debates with my sister about this, but I see the associated pathologies/crimes (kidnapping, rape, slavery) as seperate issues from the basic sex-for-cash issue.

Do not get me wrong, any who are involved in prostitution are either under duress (either from pimps, drug habits, or the threat of starvation) or have serious emotional/self-esteem issues. However the continued illegality makes it hard to counter the root problems, and there are those who make a rational decision to sell thier booty without any of the pressures mentioned.

HTG
Well, you could tell that to the colleague of mine that I dated briefly. Had a Ph. D and a successful book published, and is probably off to the wonderful world of academia now. But she paid the bills by working as an escort.

Of course, this is sunny San Francisco, where half my friends have appeared in erotica, or otherwise been involved in the skin trade. (Me, I've just pimped out their work and enjoyed the fringe benefits.)

It's also the place where we've got unionized sex workers, and aging prosititutes who run for mayor.

Like any other "consensual crime", you decriminalize it, and the pimps go bye bye.

BTW -- I assume everyone already heard about the prostitute monkeys (http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/06/steve_levitt_on.html):

Something else happened during that chaotic scene, something that convinced Chen of the monkeys' true grasp of money. Perhaps the most distinguishing characteristic of money, after all, is its fungibility, the fact that it can be used to buy not just food but anything. During the chaos in the monkey cage, Chen saw something out of the corner of his eye that he would later try to play down but in his heart of hearts he knew to be true. What he witnessed was probably the first observed exchange of money for sex in the history of monkeykind. (Further proof that the monkeys truly understood money: the monkey who was paid for sex immediately traded the token in for a grape.)

Of course, the only new thing here is the addition of the symbolic element. Primates (and plenty of other animals) trade food and shelter for sex all the time. The "false morality" is to pretend like that isn't natural, and to pretend that being human is somehow to rise above nature. As we're beginning to learn, suppressing our natural sides gets us into more trouble than it's worth.

[Michael P]

Do not get me wrong, any who are involved in prostitution are either under duress (either from pimps, drug habits, or the threat of starvation) or have serious emotional/self-esteem issues.
Except for the ones who aren't and don't.

[heretic]

Except for the ones who aren't and don't.
Typo corrected.

HTG