Faith: Why Do You Have It? (Or Not?)

[Gaz]

Pretty much like it says. Those of you with a strong faith, where did it come from, why does it endure all the sh*t in the world right now?
And if, like me, you're agnostic/atheist, why don't you have faith, if you had it and lost it, why?

And a warning, debate over "issues" is fine, but if it degenerates into "*insert faith here* is bigoted!" or "You're all sinners and damned for not beliving the same as me", then I won't hesitate to ask for Brian to close this thread.

[Dreadstar]

To be frank, I *wish* I could have it. But I can't make that leap. At times, I sincerely envy those who HAVE made that leap, that have that faith.

Pascal's Wager is false, because you can't CHOOSE to believe. You either believe (have faith) or you don't. And no amount of *saying* you DO believe is going to make it true if you don't truly believe.

[Naldo]

I suppose it depends on what kind of faith.

I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. However, I base that faith on what i've personally been able to observe nearly every day i've been alive.

I have no faith in deities or the supernatural because I find the entire idea of such a thing to be primitive and silly.

[JeffreyWKramer]

And if, like me, you're agnostic/atheist, why don't you have faith, if you had it and lost it, why?

That'd be me.

At a pretty young age - no later than 8 or 9 - I started questioning the whole concept of faith in the divine. It just plain didn't make sense. Why would a loving, caring God let kids be born with severe birth defects, or have horrible things happen to good people? That whole "God has His reasons, they're just beyond our understanding and you just have to trust Him" always sounded like a bunch of hooey to me. Too much like the sorts of rationalizations alcoholics, wife beaters and child abusers make - "I really love you, you just don't understand why I have to molest the kids, blow the rent money and beat you up." As I got older, and as I studied Christianity and, later, other religions, such stuff made even less sense, unless one wanted to believe in an almighty being so cruel and sadistic as to make Ted Bundy seem like Captain Kangaroo. Thankfully, I didn't have to go that route, either, because I came to realize that there was absolutely no evidence - zero, none, not a smidge - to support the existence of the divine in any form, and that others before me had gone this route and come to the same conclusions. And, rather than believe in something that made no sense, or in a reality ruled by some sort of Lovecraftian malevolence, I tossed all that stuff aside.

[Dreadstar]

He's obviously speaking of theologic faith, Naldo.

[Naldo]

He's obviously speaking of theologic faith, Naldo.

Yes I know that, however, when asked this question before and I've said I don't have faith in deities, I'm usually assailed with the "well do you have faith the sun will come up tomorrow?" or some other such nonsense and so I wished to pre-empt such a thing. I wasn't trying to be difficult or obstreperous in any way.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes I wasn't trying to be difficult or obstreperous in any way.


Obstreperous. There's a word one doesn't see that often.

[Shellhead]

I began to lose my faith in God when I discovered that there is no Santa Claus. In fact, the whole Santa Claus concept seems to be an efficient way to convert young Christians to atheists... I don't know why so many others can lose the one faith without losing the other.

Regardless of faith, most people are afraid of death. Deep down, most of us at least have some doubt that there is an afterlife, and that fair keeps us going for as long as we can avoid death.

[Nate C.]

Pascal's Wager is false, because you can't CHOOSE to believe. You either believe (have faith) or you don't. And no amount of *saying* you DO believe is going to make it true if you don't truly believe.

Not as false as you might think. Even Pascal moved forward in his faith to a point where the "wager" was no longer neccessarry. Christian's call this a "mature faith". This is compared to a begining faith (say Peter's when he admitted his faith was miniscule, and Jesus replied that even if it were the size of a mustard seed, he could move mountains) in which the believer is unsure and still learning to trust.

C.S. Lewis talks about this when he says that a man can "pretend" to be a Christian until he no longer has to, meaning that going through the actions will benefit him until the actions become real and have meaning, even if they didn't to begin with. One of my favorite conversions is his, in which he says that when he left his house (on a motorcycle trip) he was an atheist, and that when he arrived, he was a Christian, and he could not tell when the transition occured. Faith, like other miracles, is an act of God, and not easily understood, but I don't think it's as simple as "you get it or you don't".

I think we super-spiritualize faith sometimes when a lot of it is about moving forwards and acting as if it's real, when our reason and experience say otherwise. I now hold things apriori that I would not, had I not stepped outside reason and into simple exercise.

Heck, I was a red belt, before I understood a side-kick, but by then I had performed hundreds of thousands of side-kicks, and must have been doing something right all that time. Danged if I understood the kick until almost two years after I first tried it.

People also tell me beer is an aquired taste, and yet, people attempt the steep learning curve to get to the goods.

Or as the Psalmist says, "Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who finds him". (my paraphrase and I'm not preaching at you, Dread.)

[meethraa]

I don't have faith in the divine because my faith has always been placed in logic, and I find the two incompatible.

And Gaz, that call for self-imposed censorship: not cool.

[Gaz]

I don't have faith in the divine because my faith has always been placed in logic, and I find the two incompatible.

And Gaz, that call for self-imposed censorship: not cool.
Sorry, but we've all seen how easily this can turn into flaming, and I just wanted people to be aware, I'm not saying that I'll "tattle" if there's a disagreement, but if it gets to be just flames back and forth because you disagree, it would be closed anyway.

[MacQuarrie]

I don't have faith in the divine because my faith has always been placed in logic, and I find the two incompatible.

And Gaz, that call for self-imposed censorship: not cool.
He didn't call for self-imposed censorship. He called for a little respect for others and a little common decency. In other words, good manners.

Thanks, Gaz. I appreciated the call for civility.

[Gaz]

He didn't call for self-imposed censorship. He called for a little respect for others and a little common decency. In other words, good manners.

Thanks, Gaz. I appreciated the call for civility.
Precisely, I just don't want outright fights because people don't understand or agree with something.

[Puma]

echoing Meethra statement, I don't have faith in a divine entity. This is probably due to being raised in a non-spiritual household by a very logical Father who encouraged my brother and me to read and discuss philosophy/logic with him while my Mother was a cast-off Catholic who admired the spirituality of cloistered nuns and monks to the day she died while viewing priests and higher Church officials with far less regard.
Sometimes I wish I did have faith in a higher power, that somehow things weren't totally in my control, and that when we die our sense of self continues but to take that "leap" that true faith requires? no, I know me - my strengths, my weaknesses, I am confident in myself I cannot trade that for an unknown, and to me, faith in a divinity is the great unknown.

[Mike Smash!]

Precisely, I just don't want outright fights because people don't understand or agree with something.Oh yeah?!? Well everyone but me is stupid!!

GAARRAAHAHHH!!!

*righteous indignation*

[tempestuousepulchre]

I guess i'm still officially Hindu(because if i declared myself agnostic my parents wouldn't be too happy) but i no longer believe in my faith in the way i used to. I guess i was at some point disillusioned with the religion because i'd taken the exaggerated stories in the Hindu holy books literally, which lead to disappointment when i found that they couldn't be true. Now that i've read mythology apart from Hindu mythology, it seems to me that the essence of the religions aren't all that different so i don't see a point in endorsing any one religion. i'm not religious. I'm spiritual to some degree and i hope that that spirituality is accentuated as i grow older.

[meethraa]

but if it gets to be just flames back and forth because you disagree, it would be closed anyway.
I know what you're saying, it just seems that there's this fear of emotions lately. It makes conversations difficult.

[Michael P]

I know what you're saying, it just seems that there's this fear of emotions lately. It makes conversations difficult.
Most adults can express their emotions without insulting people.

[Dreadstar]

...Even Pascal moved forward in his faith to a point where the "wager" was no longer neccessarry.

C.S. Lewis talks about this when he says that a man can "pretend" to be a Christian until he no longer has to, meaning that going through the actions will benefit him until the actions become real and have meaning, even if they didn't to begin with.

See, I'm going to disagree with you on these points because both Pascal and the Lewis' hypothetical did not CHOOSE to have faith but rather discovered faith along the way.

I honestly DO believe it's as simple as "you get it or you don't." An act of god, an epiphany would qualify as "getting it."

Simply put:

I don't get it. I never have gotten it. I can't therefore just say "I got it!" and hope for the best.

[HomerJay]

I do have faith. Can't explain exactly why, I just do.
I think part of it has to do with the fact that I've had such a great life that I want to be able to thank something for all the blessings I've received and all the beauty that IS in the world.

[Gaz]

Most adults can express their emotions without insulting people.
Rational discussion is fine, if your feelings motivate it, better, if you personally insult someone or offhand rubbish their beliefs, then I, and a fair few others I think, would take issue.

[meethraa]

Most adults can express their emotions without insulting people.
Is that a response to what I said or just a random fact?
Because if you going to do the former, you actually didn't.

[sixstringguild]

I believe because I just do and I am very thankful for the measure of faith given to me. In college, there was a time I seriously doubted my faith and questioned everything Christianity was about. You name it, I questioned it. I read so many books and prayed so much that year, because, even though I doubted it, deep down I knew it was true and didn't want to leave it behind. it's kind of complex. Needless to say, I'm a better man because of that dark time.

Also, I see things that help validate my faith:
1. Nature: there is such an order to this universe that it takes greater faith to believe that it just happened and it wasn't designed.
2. Jesus: I read a book called "Case for Faith". It is an awesome book written by an athiest who became a Christian as a result of doing research on Christianity. In it, he talks about Christ and the historical facts that proved Him. One of the biggest ones that I thought of on my own was: why would Christians back when the movement just started go out preaching and believing, and as a result get persecuted, for someone they knew was a hoax. That's insanity at its finest. Hard to believe a movement consisting of crazy people swept the world by storm.
3. Deep down, I just "know" Jesus is the way. I can't describe it. it's neither a feeling nor "voices in my head". It just is. The Bible would tell you it's the Holy Spirit confirming the truth in me.
4. Stories of the supernatural. I've heard some stories from reputable/stable people (one being Billy Graham) that would blow your mind. They freak me out and I believe!

those are just 4 off of the top of my head...

[Mike Smash!]

Most adults can express their emotions without insulting people.Yeah, but how will that get you a spot on "Crossfire"?

[Cei-U!]

I recognize that my faith in a created universe and the immortality of the human soul is irrational, that these tenets can neither be proved or disproved through the scientific method, but I believe them for extremely personal reasons that I choose to keep private. That faith does not extend to miracles, angels, demons, astrology, ESP, Bigfoot, UFOs and other scientific unlikelihoods. In that sense, I am a commited skeptic. A bit schizoid philosophically but I'm comfortable with it.

Cei-U!
I summon the comfy worldview!

[clayholio]

I don't have faith partially because I see little correlation between belief and actions. There are enough agnostic/aethist folks who behave in a completely moral manner, and enough theists that behave in a manner contrary to their beliefs that the purported benefits of religion don't hold up to me.

The rest of it is that I simply don't believe there's a spiritual Disneyland waiting for me after I die. Despite Pascal's belief that I'd be infinitely better off if I did, I see no reason to believe that. And trying to convince myself otherwise because I'd benefit from that would call into question my own authority to believe anything.

I just wrote a term paper on this subject for my Philosophy of Religion class. Whee!!!

[Gaz]

Oh, BTW, I'm really not trying to pry here, just really curious, given the number of debates on social stuff here that come down to faith and belief.

[clayholio]

Double post. I hate my computer sometimes (like now).

[Dreadstar]

Double post. I hate my computer sometimes (like now).

It's not your computer, right now.

[Mike Smash!]

It took a little time for me to want to seriously get into this subject, because it means a lot of typing, and right now..I'm feeling a little lazy.

I'm an Atheist.

To be honest, I don't think I ever believed in God or the divine. I was raised Catholic and even wanted to be a priest when I was little, but I don't think it had anything to do with God. I love the beautiful churches, the ornate ceremonies and the cool costumes, but believing God wasn't something I don't think I really gave much thought to. It was just one of those "things people did" and I probably assumed that other people just kind of went through the motions without question the way I did. Sort of the way I never once wondered why the hell the guy down my block had chickens in his backyard in the suburbs.

I think that as a child, I probably believed more in Santa Claus than in God.

Though I went to Catholic school and went to Mass, my family wasn't all that religious. Outside of church, we never talked about religion and our holidays were fairly multicultural, before that was common. We had a Christmas tree and a nativity scene, but we also had a mennorah and did little things for Hannakah, even though no one in my family is Jewish.

I was kicked out my Catholic school later for a mix of insubordinance (I was like a little R.P. McMurphy) and the fact that my parents were divorced -- a big no-no.

So over the years, I went from describing myself as "non-practicing Catholic" to "Agnostic" to finally "Atheist".

The last part took a while and it came in high school, when I finally started turning the concepts of life, the universe and a deity in my head. It eventually came to me that I didn't believe in God and when I said it to myself, it felt like a weight was lifted and I had moved it. It simply felt "right". Past all of the intellectual reasons for not believing in God, I looked in my heart and asked myself if there was a God and my heart said, simply, "no".

Of course, like any new convert especially since Atheism has no organization, I went through my angry intolerant period, where I just disliked Christians and religious people in total and made very few distinctions between people like Desmond Tutu and Jerry Falwell.

But after high school, I wrote a screenplay satirizing organized religion and the end of the world called "And the Horse You Rode in On" and the main character was what Warren Ellis once referred to as "an asshole fantasy". The me without inhibitions or fear, free to say whatever he felt or thought and aggressively so.

And in the act of doing this, I saw all of my intolerance and anger through the lens of a fictional character that I analyzed in the act of writing him and it hit me home in a way that I can't describe. That I was inadvertandly looking at myself in a way that most people aren't brave to, in a way that I wasn't brave enough to, but stumbled upon.

I saw the same anger, arrogance, and intolerance for other points of view that I despised in people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and I worked my hardest to exorcise it from myself. To not put all religious people into one box the way that I didn't want to be judged myself.

And that is the I've remained since, though I won't pretend I'm a saint or anything.

My belief in unorthodox reincarnation and the human soul came about in a different way. It happened because of the death of a friend. I had always been terrified of death and the idea of just "not being", so I simply didn't think about it.

A close family friend was diagnosed with cancer and her own high tolerance for pain is what kept her from ever getting it checked out until the pain because too much to handle.

And the thought of someone I know slowly dying tore at me and my terror at the thought of dying resurfaced in a big way.

Thoughts of my own mortality hounded me and kept me awake and I started to reexamine my thoughts on death. And through soul searching and intuition, I found the solution that made the most sense to me and eeriely enough, my theory on an afterlife turned out to be exactly the one that appears at the end of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials".

That we all have bodies and souls and that the particles of those souls, like our bodies dissolve into the Earth, dissolve as well back into a collective soul "ocean" and are reborn in different combinations in all of the living things around us. That since time began, we've all been parts of one another. That, like matter, energy isn't destroyed, but merely changes.

That this process, and death, aren't to be afraid of, because they're the most natural thing any living being can do, and that it's a process like the evaporation and condensation of water.

But my heart still tells me that there isn't a God or divine hand guiding this, that nature knows how to take care of itself and will continue to do so.

And this has really strengthened my sense of interconnectedness of the human race (and really, all living things) and the futility of hate and violence, since we're all only hurting, in affect, parts of ourselves.

This wasn't something I pulled out of a book or have been brainwashed with, it's something that when it came to me, simply felt right and I will continue to believe it until it ceases to feel right, if that should ever happen.

[GremlinClr]

I used to believe, but after actually living in the world and seeing what people do I kinda just lost it.

I have a lot of questions* that simply can't be answered. Like when something good happens, people will say "God answered my prayers" but when something bad happend "well, God has a plan". If God had a plan then prayers don't get answered, ain't no amount of praying going to change his "divine plan". If there is a God whatever happens to you, both good and bad, is his doing.

Like Mulders poster says "I want to believe". Life is much easier if you can let a divine being shoulder the burden.

I would elaberate but I'm just now getting off work, I might join back in after I get home.

[Smell]

I think I'm beginning to find some sort of faith again, having been dragged up an irish roman catholic, I fought against a faith in an external force for a long time. Recently I've been looking for "something", and finding that it's me who's the higher power, me, who is god, me who is responsible for all that is both good or bad in my life. I think finally I'm beginning to take responsibility for my own action.

Dom

smells of frankincense

[Ray R.]

I recently saw a documentary on the war photographer James Nachtey, and the pictures of man's inhumanity to man, whether it be Rwanda, Bosnia, or Auschwitz, the level of depravity to which humankind has sunk in just the last 100 years, and the ability of our civilization to eliminate millions of people at the push of a button has led me to the theological equivalent of a stalemate in chess.

Going off the Western egocentric model of a bearded wise man in the heavens, if He exists, and we exist in His image, then He is pretty seriously screwed up.

He's either (to quote Al Pacino in "The Devil's Advocate") "an absentee landlord" or sado-masochistic. I have more faith in human nature than I do in divine law, and human nature could be considered more driven by evolutionary instinctual imperatives than goodness for the sake of self and community.

That being said, I believe in spirituality, not religion. I believe that there is a circle of life, that there is such a thing as karma, and that most of us are truly spiritual beings who are merely being held back by the oppressive rituals that constitute the reinforced over centuries infrastructure of organized religion. I believe in the wonder of nature, the uniqueness of man as a species, and the propensity for good within every person. I believe in free will and free love. I believe most of all in individual achievement towards a greater good for all.

I don't believe that machinations from afar control either our destinies or our afterlives. Control takes power, and we all know the statement about absolute power - power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is no puppet master or masters, just a bunch of highly advanced primates who hold the fate of the world in their collective hands.

[Nate C.]

See, I'm going to disagree with you on these points because both Pascal and the Lewis' hypothetical did not CHOOSE to have faith but rather discovered faith along the way.

I honestly DO believe it's as simple as "you get it or you don't." An act of god, an epiphany would qualify as "getting it."

Simply put:

I don't get it. I never have gotten it. I can't therefore just say "I got it!" and hope for the best.

That's cool, Dread. Just giving some food for thought.

And to clarify, Pascal moved beyond his dichotomic "either/or" into a relationship, and Lewis' story was to convey something of the mystery and beauty of faith, and take it somewhat out of the cerebral lobe only.

Nate.

[Ghost]

Pretty much like it says. Those of you with a strong faith, where did it come from, why does it endure all the sh*t in the world right now?

What shit is that, if I may ask? From my point of view, the world is better then ever. Information is abundant, people are gradually getting more and more enlightened, there's no more Inquisition, twelve year old girls aren't forced to marry men four times their age for political reasons... Over all, I'm pretty optimistic. I agree we still have a long way to go, but you have to admit we're improving.

Seriously, there are 4000 year old clay tablets, written is freaking Mesopotanian that speaks of how society is on decline and how the Last Days Are Near. It's no news, really.

Personally, I'm agnostic leaning away from atheism. I'm not agnostic because something has made me loose or gain faith, but because I don't like to make groundless assumtions. There's no proof that the god's do exist, and there's no proof that they don't. End of story. With this in mind I play it safe and try to be as good a person as I can, appriciate life, and hope for the best.

I began to lose my faith in God when I discovered that there is no Santa Claus. In fact, the whole Santa Claus concept seems to be an efficient way to convert young Christians to atheists... I don't know why so many others can lose the one faith without losing the other.

No offence, but this makes little sense to me. Santa Clause is a symbolic representation of an ideal, and I don't see how he has anything to do with religion. It's like saying I don't believe in God because I don't see a guy in black riding around on a pale horse, collecting souls with a scythe.

Regardless of faith, most people are afraid of death. Deep down, most of us at least have some doubt that there is an afterlife, and that fair keeps us going for as long as we can avoid death.

Well, a friend of mine explained this as an inherited, "pre-prgorammed" fear of death found in just about any living creature. Makes sense, since you won't live long out in nature if you don't care wether you live or die.

[Dreadstar]

No offence, but this makes little sense to me.

Maybe he's making this analogy?

Santa Clause is a symbolic representation of an ideal

God is a symbolic representation of an ideal

[Gaz]

What shit is that, if I may ask? From my point of view, the world is better then ever. Information is abundant, people are gradually getting more and more enlightened, there's no more Inquisition, twelve year old girls aren't forced to marry men four times their age for political reasons... Over all, I'm pretty optimistic. I agree we still have a long way to go, but you have to admit we're improving.

Seriously, there are 4000 year old clay tablets, written is freaking Mesopotanian that speaks of how society is on decline and how the Last Days Are Near. It's no news, really.
Yes, we're getting there, but disease, poverty, war, prejudice and bigotry still exist. That's a pretty damn big mountain to climb. And my question meant this: It's easy to believe when things are going right, but when things are going wrong? How does your faith endure that?

[Ghost]

Yes, we're getting there, but disease, poverty, war, prejudice and bigotry still exist. That's a pretty damn big mountain to climb.

Yes, but we are climbing. :)

Those things were there 500 years ago as well, only then we didn't have all the good stuff I mentioned. And with time and a little bit of luck, we'll be rid of them as well.

And my question meant this: It's easy to believe when things are going right, but when things are going wrong? How does your faith endure that?

Since I'm not 100% religious, I can't really answer this. But I suppose all the really good stuff helps allot. ;)

Also, I'm not certain it's a question of endurance, because that's not the way faith works. I've always seen faith as a sort of gut feeling, or an instict, nothing you actually decide upon. It's there regardless of circumstances.

I do have faith. Can't explain exactly why, I just do.
I think part of it has to do with the fact that I've had such a great life that I want to be able to thank something for all the blessings I've received and all the beauty that IS in the world.

Well spoken. :)


Thoughts of my own mortality hounded me and kept me awake and I started to reexamine my thoughts on death. And through soul searching and intuition, I found the solution that made the most sense to me and eeriely enough, my theory on an afterlife turned out to be exactly the one that appears at the end of Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials".

You mean the one where you become one with the universe, or then one were you get to stay in a very boring place with only other dead people to talk to, for all eternity? (Man, that's a depressing thought.)

If I was to imagine an idealised life after death, it would be a positively huge place were everything that has ever existed or been imagined, ever will exist or be imagined, and ever could exist or be imagined, does indeed exist. And one would basically get to go wherever one wants and do whatever one wants.

[Mike Smash!]

You mean the one where you become one with the universe, or then one were you get to stay in a very boring place with only other dead people to talk to, for all eternity? (Man, that's a depressing thought.)No, not that part. I said "the end" for a reason.

The part where their souls become one with the universe. You know, the part without harpies. :)

[Dreadstar]

If I was to imagine an idealised life after death, it would be a positively huge place were everything that has ever existed or been imagined, ever will exist or be imagined, and ever could exist or be imagined, does indeed exist. And one would basically get to go wherever one wants and do whatever one wants.

Live City of Heroes! REAL first person World of Warcraft!



WHOO HOO!

[Ghost]

No, not that part. I said "the end" for a reason.

The part where their souls become one with the universe. You know, the part without harpies. :)

I guessed as much, just wanted to clarify.

Actually, those books very rather depressing, over all. Freaking great, but still depressing.

And I still haven't forgiven that bastard Pullman for the bullshit he had the angels pull at the end! §#¤&%! :mad:

[Gaz]

I guessed as much, just wanted to clarify.

Actually, those books very rather depressing, over all. Freaking great, but still depressing.

And I still haven't forgiving that bastard Pullman for the bullshit he had the angels pull at the end! §#¤&%! :mad:
Remind me, I haven't read them for a while... :confused:

[Matt]

To have faith without any sort of evidence to back it up is, by it's very nature, a completely irrational act. You may as well have faith that a giant blue and yellow three headed mutant rabbit makes the world's weather through it's cyclic flatulence.

However, I have faith in things I can quantify. I have faith in things that there is evidence to support. For example;
I have faith in the scientific method and I have faith that humanity, as a whole, is remarkably stupid.

[Ghost]

Remind me, I haven't read them for a while... :confused:

He had Will and Lyra go through three fat novels worth of pain, terror, violence, loss, unbending friendship and, ultimately, true love. Then, after they made it through all that shit, it turned out they had to go to their sepparate universes and never ever see each other again. I was royally pissed off for three while days after that. :evilangry

[JeffreyWKramer]

, I can't really answer this. But I suppose all the really good stuff helps allot. ;)

This is a very healthy attitude, IMHO. It's certainly one which helps me get by, and it is one I attempt to cultivate in my clients.

There is certainly plenty of crap in the world. War, famine, poverty, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, fire, a crappy economy, violence, racism, crime, Paris Hilton, Carrot Top. But there are also plenty of wonderful, beautiful, good and just plain cool and fun things. It doesn't do us any good to deny or blind ourselves to the negatives, but except when we are forced to deal with them (for example, when we are unemployed and need to maintain effort in finding a job), it also doesn't do one much good to spend much time thinking about them, and it almost never does much good to dwell on them. Instead, if one tries to focus as much as possible on the good and the positive things, one is more likely to maintain a positive attitude.

[Gaz]

He had Will and Lyra go through three fat novels worth of pain, terror, violence, loss, unbending friendship and, ultimately, true love. Then, after they made it through all that shit, it turned out they had to go to their sepparate universes and never ever see each other again. I was royally pissed off for three while days after that. :evilangry
Well, if you'd been indifferent then he wouldn't be a good writer, would he?
And isn't there still another story or two to go, after Lyra And The Birds?

[Ghost]

To have faith without any sort of evidence to back it up is, by it's very nature, a completely irrational act. You may as well have faith that a giant blue and yellow three headed mutant rabbit makes the world's weather through it's cyclic flatulence.

Doesn't this mean that atheism is completely irrational as well? Since it relies on having faith in the non-existance of devine powers without the proof to back it up, I mean.

Well, if you'd been indifferent then he wouldn't be a good writer, would he?
And isn't there still another story or two to go, after Lyra And The Birds?

Oh, I didn't say he was a bad writer. He's an excellent writer. But that ending was mean, pure and simple. He had no reason for doing that, whatsoever.

Wait, are you saying there's a sequal?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Doesn't this mean that atheism is completely irrational as well? Since it relies on having faith in the non-existance of devine powers without the proof to back it up, I mean.


Well, there is one difference I see between the two. Belief in the divine requires you to believe in something which completely violates the observable rules and facts of the world we interact with on a daily basis. Disbelief in the divine requires no such thing. The first requires belief in something for which there is no evidence and which is contrary to evidence of things you know to be true (or as much so as we can know anything). The second stance is much more consistent with demonstrable reality (to the extent anything is demonstrable, of course).

[Mike Smash!]

Doesn't this mean that atheism is completely irrational as well? Since it relies on having faith in the non-existance of devine powers without the proof to back it up, I mean.No, because you're answering as if Theism is the "default" answer. That belief is automatic and that you have to make a decision to be an Atheist or have to subscribe to a belief.

In my opinion it isn't irrational to not believe something unless there's hefty scientific evidence that you're refusing to see. This would mean that my disbelief in aliens, Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster is also irrational.

There is no leap of faith required to disbelieve either of those theories.

Atheism by its nature, only eliminates on thing: the existence of God. The rest is open to discussion. It isn't an answer or a full belief system no more than "bald" can be considered a hair color.

Now while my Atheism and my beliefs, do indeed involve my own intuition and moving into the realm of the "irrational", Atheism by itself does not.

[Gaz]

Doesn't this mean that atheism is completely irrational as well? Since it relies on having faith in the non-existance of devine powers without the proof to back it up, I mean.



Oh, I didn't say he was a bad writer. He's an excellent writer. But that ending was mean, pure and simple. He had no reason for doing that, whatsoever.

Wait, are you saying there's a sequal?
There's a book, called Lyra's Oxford which has a short story in it. And I believe Pullman has said he's working on one last thing in the HDM multiverse.

[Ghost]

Well, there is one difference I see between the two. Belief in the divine requires you to believe in something which completely violates the observable rules and facts of the world we interact with on a daily basis. Disbelief in the divine requires no such thing. The first requires belief in something for which there is no evidence and which is contrary to evidence of things you know to be true (or as much so as we can know anything). The second stance is much more consistent with demonstrable reality (to the extent anything is demonstrable, of course).

But if God exists, and he is truly omnipotent, he is above the observable rules and facts of the world and therefore can't violate them.

No, because you're answering as if Theism is the "default" answer. That belief is automatic and that you have to make a decision to be an Atheist or have to subscribe to a belief.

In my opinion it isn't irrational to not believe something unless there's hefty scientific evidence that you're refusing to see. This would mean that my disbelief in aliens, Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster is also irrational.

There is no leap of faith required to disbelieve either of those theories.

Atheism by its nature, only eliminates on thing: the existence of God. The rest is open to discussion. It isn't an answer or a full belief system no more than "bald" can be considered a hair color.

Now while my Atheism and my beliefs, do indeed involve my own intuition and moving into the realm of the "irrational", Atheism by itself does not.

Actually, I see agnosticism as the "default" answer. From my point of view, Theism and Atheism alike assumes a certain belief in something that cannot be proven.

Then again, we seem to have different definitions of belief, since my personal opinion is that you need to prove something before you can belive it, but also disprove it before you can dismiss it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

But if God exists, and he is truly omnipotent, he is above the observable rules and facts of the world and therefore can't violate them.


That very omnipotence is still at odds with all known things; we don't have any evidence of any things which actually transcend the laws of nature. That's not to say they don't exist, but that is to say belief in them requires belief in a whole category of reality separate from the reality we do know.

Or, to use the analogy I've used many times, one cannot prove that the phenomena we attribute to gravity are not actually caused by the magical powers of invisible, intangible fairies. Inability to disprove the existence of said fairies does not necessitate our believing in them, however, and in fact there is no good reason to believe in them. Same re: God.

[Ghost]

That very omnipotence is still at odds with all known things; we don't have any evidence of any things which actually transcend the laws of nature. That's not to say they don't exist, but that is to say belief in them requires belief in a whole category of reality separate from the reality we do know.

Or, to use the analogy I've used many times, one cannot prove that the phenomena we attribute to gravity are not actually caused by the magical powers of invisible, intangible fairies. Inability to disprove the existence of said fairies does not necessitate our believing in them, however, and in fact there is no good reason to believe in them. Same re: God.

Ah, I see your point.

[Mike Smash!]

Actually, I see agnosticism as the "default" answer. From my point of view, Theism and Atheism alike assumes a certain belief in something that cannot be proven.I believe that both Atheism and Agnosticism, which are the likely beliefs of one who grows up not being taught a religion or about other religions, are the "default".

And you can't prove a negative statement. There's a large difference between "prove that I can fly" and "prove that I can't".

Because with the second, any amount of rationalization can cover it up, and usually does.

[KameTen]

I have faith in humanity's ability to preserve itself even under the most hopeless of odds. I have faith that somebody will shoot the person who will try to create our computer overlords. I believe that there are just some things that will always be outside of ability to reason and deduce. I have faith that humanity will always seek to try to learn that which is outside of our perceptions.

I have faith in a lot of things. Both within what can be seen and what cannot. I just don't place my faith in any deity. Too many shifty customers, bad translations, and mass genocides with no real necessity, with hollow or just unfufilling end results.

Besides Faith should not automatically equal religion, it should start with your fellow man, since most of the people on this earth simply want to be happy and unmolested by their fellow man.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Then again, we seem to have different definitions of belief, since my personal opinion is that you need to prove something before you can belive it, but also disprove it before you can dismiss it.

My take is that it's perfectly reasonable to dismiss those things you can't disprove, but which you also can't prove or resonably infer via observation, so long as one also recognizes the possibility you may be incorrect.

God, the Hindu, Greek, American Indian, Mesoamerican and Norse gods, Lucier, demons, angels, fairies and spirits of various sorts... none of these can be disproven. However, it makes little if any sense to believe in all of them, and since there is no more proof for any of them than for any of the others, it makes good sense to disbelieve in the lot of them.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Ah, I see your point.

My work here is done, then. :)

[Ghost]

I believe that both Atheism and Agnosticism, which are the likely beliefs of one who grows up not being taught a religion or about other religions, are the "default".

It's all about where you're coming from, really.

And you can't prove a negative statement. There's a large difference between "prove that I can fly" and "prove that I can't".

Because with the second, any amount of rationalization can cover it up, and usually does.

I'm not quite following you here. (Then again, I'm way over my head by now anyway.)

[Matt]

Doesn't this mean that atheism is completely irrational as well? Since it relies on having faith in the non-existance of devine powers without the proof to back it up, I mean.

No, because there's more evidence in favour of the non-existence of any such deity than there is for his existence.
For example, we know (as certain as we can be) that certain items in The Bible are factually untrue. We know that Noah's Ark couldn't have held all those species, we know there was no global scale flooding, we know the Earth is far older than a mere 5,000-10,000 years.
That sort of thing casts severe doubt on the credibility of such religious texts and basically means it's worthless as evidence.

On the other hand; We know that man has been around on the planet for at least 65,000 years. We know the planet is at least a couple of billion years old. We know that the Universe came from a single point in space/time and is continually spreading out from that point of origin.

To start saying that any such deity is truly omnipotent and is above the observable rules proves nothing and only slips oneself far further down the already slippery slope of irrationality. Using the same logic, I could say that the whole of existence is contained within a cosmic snowglobe being watched by Mxyplztk while he relaxes in his summer house in the 5th Dimension. There's nothing you can say to actively disprove this theory but there's no evidence to support it either - which is exactly the same position that the existence of God is in. You simply can't prove it and thus it's irrational to have blind faith in it. In fact, it's completely irrational to have blind faith in anything at all.

It's only through observation/evidence that things can be quantified, understood and believed in. Without that evidence as support, almost any thoery at all can be proclaimed as being true ... such as the giant mutant three headed weather making rabbit.

[KameTen]

I'm more inclined to believe that atheism is an arrived choice rather than a natural state of mind. A child is more prone to asking questions in order to learn rather than making bold choices without at least sampling, and atheism is something that comes further down the road of certain person's growth cycles into adulthood when cynacism(sp?) comes into play.

[Gaz]

I'm more inclined to believe that atheism is an arrived choice rather than a natural state of mind. A child is more prone to asking questions in order to learn rather than making bold choices without at least sampling, and atheism is something that comes further down the road of certain person's growth cycles into adulthood when cynacism(sp?) comes into play.
Only if you hold that we're all born believing in God.
I wasn't, I never really have believed, and I've seen little to change my mind.

[Mike Smash!]

It's all about where you're coming from, really.



I'm not quite following you here. (Then again, I'm way over my head by now anyway.)What I'm saying is is that Atheism is not a belief, so much as a "reverse belief", the way that disbelieving in other religions or in mythical creatures like unicorns is.

If you tell someone to prove that unicorns exists, they would do this by showing you one.

But if you tell them to prove to you that unicorns don't exist, you can't. Because no matter what evidence you offer, there's always some corner they could be hiding in or something you may have missed or other excuses to maintain their belief that there are unicorns. It comes down to "you just can't find them, that's all" and there's no way to pierce that attitude.

My beliefs about reincarnation involve a leap of faith, because there's no scientific way to prove them, just as there is no way to prove the existance of God or gods.

[KameTen]

To start saying that any such deity is truly omnipotent and is above the observable rules proves nothing and only slips oneself far further down the already slippery slope of irrationality. Using the same logic, I could say that the whole of existence is contained within a cosmic snowglobe being watched by Mxyplztk while he relaxes in his summer house in the 5th Dimension. There's nothing you can say to actively disprove this theory but there's no evidence to support it either - which is exactly the same position that the existence of God is in. You simply can't prove it and thus it's irrational to have blind faith in it. In fact, it's completely irrational to have blind faith in anything at all.

It's only through observation/evidence that things can be quantified, understood and believed in. Without that evidence as support, almost any thoery at all can be proclaimed as being true ... such as the giant mutant three headed weather making rabbit.

You mean he isn't :p
There goes one more off my list.

[Mike Smash!]

I'm more inclined to believe that atheism is an arrived choice rather than a natural state of mind. A child is more prone to asking questions in order to learn rather than making bold choices without at least sampling, and atheism is something that comes further down the road of certain person's growth cycles into adulthood when cynacism(sp?) comes into play.Again this is acting as if belief in a god is the default behavior for human beings, when most young children are taught that God exists, when many wouldn't begin to comprehend the existance of any sort of creator or the concept of death until they're much much older.

Atheism isn't cynicism. No more than you're a cynic for not believing in alien abductions.

[Ghost]

No, because there's more evidence in favour of the non-existence of any such deity than there is for his existence.
For example, we know (as certain as we can be) that certain items in The Bible are factually untrue. We know that Noah's Ark couldn't have held all those species, we know there was no global scale flooding, we know the Earth is far older than a mere 5,000-10,000 years.
That sort of thing casts severe doubt on the credibility of such religious texts and basically means it's worthless as evidence.

On the other hand; We know that man has been around on the planet for at least 65,000 years. We know the planet is at least a couple of billion years old. We know that the Universe came from a single point in space/time and is continually spreading out from that point of origin.

With a omnipotent god at the helm, couldn't it be argued that both are actually eqally true, for all that we know?

To start saying that any such deity is truly omnipotent and is above the observable rules proves nothing and only slips oneself far further down the already slippery slope of irrationality. Using the same logic, I could say that the whole of existence is contained within a cosmic snowglobe being watched by Mxyplztk while he relaxes in his summer house in the 5th Dimension. There's nothing you can say to actively disprove this theory but there's no evidence to support it either - which is exactly the same position that the existence of God is in. You simply can't prove it and thus it's irrational to have blind faith in it. In fact, it's completely irrational to have blind faith in anything at all.

You just described my entire belief system. :)

I don't have blind faith in anything, but I never dismiss anything as being impossible, either.

It's only through observation/evidence that things can be quantified, understood and believed in. Without that evidence as support, almost any thoery at all can be proclaimed as being true ... such as the giant mutant three headed weather making rabbit.

Problem is, you're talking about science, not religion. Ask any truly religious person, and I'm sure he or she will tell you that they don't care about proof.

[KameTen]

Only if you hold that we're all born believing in God.
I wasn't, I never really have believed, and I've seen little to change my mind.

I'm just saying that children are more agnostic than they are atheist, and that when one grows and does become an atheist, it is more because they arrived at that decision through observation than it is because of a existing mindset. What child freshly born ponders the meaning of existence and higher beings?

[GremlinClr]

I used to believe, but after actually living in the world and seeing what people do I kinda just lost it.

I have a lot of questions* that simply can't be answered. Like when something good happens, people will say "God answered my prayers" but when something bad happend "well, God has a plan". If God had a plan then prayers don't get answered, ain't no amount of praying going to change his "divine plan". If there is a God whatever happens to you, both good and bad, is his doing.

Like Mulders poster says "I want to believe". Life is much easier if you can let a divine being shoulder the burden.

I would elaberate but I'm just now getting off work, I might join back in after I get home.

I'm not gonna go into all my questions (as they are many and varied) but I would appreciate it if anyone can answer this one small question:

Is there anything that can oppose God's will?

I ask this because religious people will say that "God is omnipotent" if that's the case then I don't understand how anyone can worship such a being.

If God is omnipotent and nothing can oppose his will, then why does evil and Satan (who by the way he created as well) exist? God and his "divine plan" are the reason humanity suffers.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if God loves his children so much we shouldn't suffer like we do. *SHRUG*

[Gaz]

I'm just saying that children are more agnostic than they are atheist, and that when one grows and does become an atheist, it is more because they arrived at that decision through observation than it is because of a existing mindset. What child freshly born ponders the meaning of existence and higher beings?
None, but most children that believe are taught to do so, because of their parents beliefs, they don't automatically go "Da-da, there's a big pewson whot watches and looks after us, ain't dere?", the concept of a deity has to be introduced. Until there they don't believe or wonder, because they're unaware, so "default" is atheist.

[Ghost]

I'm not gonna go into all my questions (as they are many and varied) but I would appreciate it if anyone can answer this one small question:

Is there anything that can oppose God's will?

If he exists in the form that religions claim he does? Then no, technically not.

I ask this because religious people will say that "God is omnipotent" if that's the case then I don't understand how anyone can worship such a being.

If God is omnipotent and nothing can oppose his will, then why does evil and Satan (who by the way he created as well) exist? God and his "divine plan" are the reason humanity suffers.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if God loves his children so much we shouldn't suffer like we do. *SHRUG*

Yeah, this is pretty much why I don't go to church and stuff like that. Actively worshiping such a being would be totally pointless.

As for suffering, I don't see why it should be any other way. Sure, God could remove it all and makes us live in eternal bliss, but then what?

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps all the suffering in the world is mostly our own making, or that of chance, and that God wants us to solve our problems on our own, without external help?

[KameTen]

Again this is acting as if belief in a god is the default behavior for human beings, when most young children are taught that God exists, when many wouldn't begin to comprehend the existance of any sort of creator or the concept of death until they're much much older.

Atheism isn't cynicism. No more than you're a cynic for not believing in alien abductions.

I do not believe that people come into this world believing in God and the afterlife, but that people are curious about their surroundings, both visual and non-visual. That the process of learning, growing, and understanding the things around us shape our perceptions, and that atheism is choice based on those learned perceptions rather than a neutral state of mind, due to a process of elimination of certain other perceptions. I really shouldn't have used cynicism to describe it, but it was the only word that came to mind.

[Gaz]

If he exists in the form that religions claim he does? Then no, technically not.



Yeah, this is pretty much why I don't go to church and stuff like that. Actively worshiping such a being would be totally pointless.

As for suffering, I don't see why it should be any other way. Sure, God could remove it all and makes us live in eternal bliss, but then what?

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps all the suffering in the world is mostly our own making, or that of chance, and that God wants us to solve our problems on our own, without external help?
So, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes and earthquakes are our own doing, the Black Death was our fault, arguably, by wanting us to acknowedge Hir (I'm not religious but I dislike the idea of a gendered Almighty) then the Crusades were Hir fault.

[BlairH]

I'm a Christian (non denominational but with Protestant leanings). My Grandfather (on my dad's side) is Jewish, and he married an athiest girl (so my Dad isn't Jewish). My Mum's side of the family were hardline communists (infact my Grandfather on that side was the leader of a SOVIET aligned socialist group I believe) and hence were athiests.

I didn't inherit my faith from my parents. I don't know where my faith stems from really. I guess it was just that I believed in God (especially after looking at the pics from the Hubble space telescope), reading from the Bible and talking to friends and stuff entrenched my beliefs.

I don't go to Church as often as I perhaps should, mainly because my parents are not religious as such..

[Mike Smash!]

I do not believe that people come into this world believing in God and the afterlife, but that people are curious about their surroundings, both visual and non-visual. That the process of learning, growing, and understanding the things around us shape our perceptions, and that atheism is choice based on those learned perceptions rather than a neutral state of mind, due to a process of elimination of certain other perceptions. I really shouldn't have used cynicism to describe it, but it was the only word that came to mind.I didn't chose to be an Atheist. As far as I know, I always have been.

I "just am" an Atheist. I never decided to be one no more than I chose to be left handed or chose to dislike tomatoes. And, because to be honest, if it was all about choice, I'd probably want to believe in the George Burns version of God. But I don't.

I'm someone plans on running for office one day and if belief was a choice, I certainly wouldn't have chosen Atheism.

I am what I am and I'm proud of who I am, and my disbelief is part of that.

[BlairH]

So, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes and earthquakes are our own doing, the Black Death was our fault, arguably, by wanting us to acknowedge Hir (I'm not religious but I dislike the idea of a gendered Almighty) then the Crusades were Hir fault.

How can you particularly dislike a gendered deity??? Does this dislike apply to humans who consider themselves to be gendered? :p There are reasons why deitys have genders, just like I am male, you are male, some godesses are female. I happen to believe in a masculine God.

[KameTen]

None, but most children that believe are taught to do so, because of their parents beliefs, they don't automatically go "Da-da, there's a big pewson whot watches and looks after us, ain't dere?", the concept of a deity has to be introduced. Until there they don't believe or wonder, because they're unaware, so "default" is atheist.

The focal point of my argument centers around my mindset that the elements of the supernatural and religion can and should be treated as mutually exclusive(sp?). You don't, and shouldn't always need God to believe in things that you can't see, and that the choice of believing or not believing in God or any other deity/s is a choice one makes down the road rather than. "Imaginary" friends, ghosts, monsters, and otherwise are fair game for a child to speculate about, and those are the things I believe don't need an introduction by somebody else for children to think about and question.

[Matt]

Problem is, you're talking about science, not religion. Ask any truly religious person, and I'm sure he or she will tell you that they don't care about proof.

Which means their entire belief structure boils down to having Blind Faith in something without having a single shred of evidence to support that belief.

Which is completely and utterly irrational and illogical. To use someone else's example; you may as well believe that magical fairies are responsible for gravity. It makes just as much sense as having blind faith that some omnipotent deity is all around us, watching us in a cosmic version of 'Big Brother'.

Blind Faith is, to be blunt, the domain of those who have a hard time facing observable reality. Forces are imagined into existence to explain that which they can't comprehend or understand ... or just as an attempt to bring some sort of meaning/higher purpose to their own existence.
If they want to do that, it's fine by me. I'm not going to stop them because that's their right to believe in whatever they like.
However, it doesn't stop me from believing that having blind faith in something completely unquantifiable is utterly daft.

[Gaz]

How can you particularly dislike a gendered deity??? Does this dislike apply to humans who consider themselves to be gendered? :p There are reasons why deitys have genders, just like I am male, you are male, some godesses are female. I happen to believe in a masculine God.
Yes, but the Christian God, which I was referring to, has no real reason to be one or the other, beyond the masculine pronouns being used in the book.

[GremlinClr]

As for suffering, I don't see why it should be any other way. Sure, God could remove it all and makes us live in eternal bliss, but then what?


Well umm isn't that Heaven? If it exists what do you plan on doing there? :)

[BlairH]

Yes, but the Christian God, which I was referring to, has no real reason to be one or the other, beyond the masculine pronouns being used in the book.

Aye but we believe that "man" was created in God's image, therefor God is male according to our belief. The female was created as an equal counterpart (different "gender" to God).

Have any of you heard of the stories of "Lilith"? (God's failed attempt to create a counterpart to man. She became the first vampire)

[cable guy]

If God is omnipotent and nothing can oppose his will, then why does evil and Satan (who by the way he created as well) exist? God and his "divine plan" are the reason humanity suffers.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if God loves his children so much we shouldn't suffer like we do. *SHRUG*

Perhaps Evil or Satan are even more powerful then we are led to believe.

I don't know why bad things and suffering happen, perhaps it's just a part of life on earth. That's why etrernal life is all the more beautiful.

[Mike Smash!]

I'm a Christian (non denominational but with Protestant leanings). My Grandfather (on my dad's side) is Jewish, and he married an athiest girl (so my Dad isn't Jewish). My Mum's side of the family were hardline communists (infact my Grandfather on that side was the leader of a SOVIET aligned socialist group I believe) and hence were athiests.

I didn't inherit my faith from my parents. I don't know where my faith stems from really. I guess it was just that I believed in God (especially after looking at the pics from the Hubble space telescope), reading from the Bible and talking to friends and stuff entrenched my beliefs.

I don't go to Church as often as I perhaps should, mainly because my parents are not religious as such..Sorry to use you as an example with my debate with KameTen, but you never say anywhere in here that you chose to believe in a god.

You mention outside influence like friends and reading the Bible, but in the end one either believes or disbelieves. We're not all zombies after all, we don't immediately believe it -- though sadly, a few do.

But in your experiences, belief in a god clicked with you and felt right. And someone else with your exact same history and experiences could have come out of that with the exact opposite conclusion.

[Mike Smash!]

How can you particularly dislike a gendered deity??? Does this dislike apply to humans who consider themselves to be gendered? :p There are reasons why deitys have genders, just like I am male, you are male, some godesses are female. I happen to believe in a masculine God.I think that what he's saying that gender exists for procreation and there is no reason for a unique omnipotent being to have a gender if it doesn't reproduce or mate.

[Gaz]

Aye but we believe that "man" was created in God's image, therefor God is male according to our belief. The female was created as an equal counterpart (different "gender" to God).

Have any of you heard of the stories of "Lilith"? (God's failed attempt to create a counterpart to man. She became the first vampire)
Isn't Lilith a Jewish myth? (Sorry, Morts, if I got it wrong)
What if "in His image" he meant the soul? We thus have free will and other things that angels and the like don't.

[BlairH]

Perhaps Evil or Satan are even more powerful then we are led to believe.

I don't know why bad things and suffering happen, perhaps it's just a part of life on earth. That's why etrernal life is all the more beautiful.

My particular warped Christian perspective is that your life on Earth is a proving ground, no more, no less. Sometimes it's unfair to some folks, but it's how we (as individuals or a collective) deal with stuff that matters.

We're here for a good time not a long time. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[cable guy]

Only if you hold that we're all born believing in God.
I wasn't, I never really have believed, and I've seen little to change my mind.

Did you ever believe?

Don't you think you learned to Not believe, somewhere along the line.

[BlairH]

Isn't Lilith a Jewish myth? (Sorry, Morts, if I got it wrong)
What if "in His image" he meant the soul? We thus have free will and other things that angels and the like don't.

It was my Grandfather who told me about Lilith so it could very well be a Jewish tale.

My Grandfather swears he saw a Vampire once.

[KameTen]

I didn't chose to be an Atheist. As far as I know, I always have been.

I "just am" an Atheist. I never decided to be one no more than I chose to be left handed or chose to dislike tomatoes. And, because to be honest, if it was all about choice, I'd probably want to believe in the George Burns version of God. But I don't.

I'm someone plans on running for office one day and if belief was a choice, I certainly wouldn't have chosen Atheism.

I am what I am and I'm proud of who I am, and my disbelief is part of that.

Just as long as you can "believe in the human spirit", then its all right :p

[Ghost]

So, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes and earthquakes are our own doing, the Black Death was our fault, arguably, by wanting us to acknowedge Hir (I'm not religious but I dislike the idea of a gendered Almighty) then the Crusades were Hir fault.

Notice that I also mentioned chance as a factor. Floods, tsunamis, volcanoes and earthquakes happen. It's not anyone's fault.

As for the crusades, they were the products of man's religions and politics. I don't see what that has to do with God.

Which means their entire belief structure boils down to having Blind Faith in something without having a single shred of evidence to support that belief.

Which is completely and utterly irrational and illogical. To use someone else's example; you may as well believe that magical fairies are responsible for gravity. It makes just as much sense as having blind faith that some omnipotent deity is all around us, watching us in a cosmic version of 'Big Brother'.

Blind Faith is, to be blunt, the domain of those who have a hard time facing observable reality. Forces are imagined into existence to explain that which they can't comprehend or understand ... or just as an attempt to bring some sort of meaning/higher purpose to their own existence.
If they want to do that, it's fine by me. I'm not going to stop them because that's their right to believe in whatever they like.
However, it doesn't stop me from believing that having blind faith in something completely unquantifiable is utterly daft.

Fair enough, if that makes your world a better place to live in. Me, I prefer to keep the irrational and the illogical in the back of my head, since it makes for a more interesting universe to inhabit. When it comes right down it it, that's what I believe faith is all about. ;)

[GremlinClr]

Perhaps Evil or Satan are even more powerful then we are led to believe.

I don't know why bad things and suffering happen, perhaps it's just a part of life on earth. That's why etrernal life is all the more beautiful.

No I don't think so. God created Satan. Would he really create a being that could defeat him? I mean if he did you couldn't say it was an accident (the all-knowing, all-seeing part of the equation) so it would have to be deliberate.

And if the bible is the word of God then Satan's defeat is spelled out in Revelations, so he can't be that tough if God already knows he's gonna defeat him.

[Gaz]

Did you ever believe?

Don't you think you learned to Not believe, somewhere along the line.
Nope, nowhere in my memories do I remember believing. We had to pray and sing hymns at my primary school, and I just went through the motions mostly.
My dad was away on jobs a lot, and my mum's not religious so I was rarely, if ever in a church.

[cable guy]

My particular warped Christian perspective is that your life on Earth is a proving ground, no more, no less. Sometimes it's unfair to some folks, but it's how we (as individuals or a collective) deal with stuff that matters.

We're here for a good time not a long time. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Not warped at all.

That is a very good perspective, somewhat the way I look at things. :D

[Mike Smash!]

Did you ever believe?

Don't you think you learned to Not believe, somewhere along the line.I never believed. I went through the motions, but at the age of five I just thought of church and God as just "something people did" and assumed that that's what other people thought too.

My homelife was very secular, even though I went to Catholic school through 2nd grade. My first actual contemplation about life, the universe and the possibility of a creator came when I was in Junior High and High School, when I suddenly realized that there were kids that were really religious and my own mind had matured to the point that I was thinking in the abstract.

It's like with sarcasm. A recent study showed that children don't get sarcasm until they're about ten years old. They understand that the tone means you intend the opposite of what you say, but until they're about ten, they don't understand why it's funny.

[KameTen]

Mike, is it just not believing, or not caring?

[JeffreyWKramer]

No I don't think so. God created Satan. Would he really create a being that could defeat him? I mean if he did you couldn't say it was an accident (the all-knowing, all-seeing part of the equation) so it would have to be deliberate.

And if the bible is the word of God then Satan's defeat is spelled out in Revelations, so he can't be that tough if God already knows he's gonna defeat him.


In Judaism, and to some extent in Islam and in some offshoot Christian faiths, the take is that Satan isn't really God's enemy, but rather a servant of God who God tasked with tempting mortals and testing their faith.

Which again strikes me as more proof of that "if God exists, He's a dick" idea which really argues against the whole idea anyhow, but I thought I'd toss in that idea for thought.

[cable guy]

Nope, nowhere in my memories do I remember believing. We had to pray and sing hymns at my primary school, and I just went through the motions mostly.
My dad was away on jobs a lot, and my mum's not religious so I was rarely, if ever in a church.

I went to Catholic School, so as far as I can remember there was always God.

As I get older, my faith has become tested I'm ashamed to say.

[KameTen]

In Judaism, and to some extent in Islam and in some offshoot Christian faiths, the take is that Satan isn't really God's enemy, but rather a servant of God who God tasked with tempting mortals and testing their faith.

Which again strikes me as more proof of that "if God exists, He's a dick" idea which really argues against the whole idea anyhow, but I thought I'd toss in that idea for thought.

Explains those four genocides on his belt anyways.

[BlairH]

Not warped at all.

That is a very good perspective, somewhat the way I look at things. :D

Thanks. 'tis always good to get some affirmation :D
(not that I'm trying to build up an army of "voluenteers" or anything.....)

[Gaz]

I went to Catholic School, so as far as I can remember there was always God.

As I get older, my faith has become tested I'm ashamed to say.
Hey, even if you have faith, not testing it is a surfire sign that you din't believe that strongly. If it's been tested and come out the other side fine, then good for you, that proves how strong it is.

[Ghost]

In Judaism, and to some extent in Islam and in some offshoot Christian faiths, the take is that Satan isn't really God's enemy, but rather a servant of God who God tasked with tempting mortals and testing their faith.

Which again strikes me as more proof of that "if God exists, He's a dick" idea which really argues against the whole idea anyhow, but I thought I'd toss in that idea for thought.

Indeed. Personally, I don't think Satan really fits the picture. If he does exist, he'd be more of a renegade Rock'n'Roll-type rebel angel then the Epitome of Evil.

[cable guy]

In Judaism, and to some extent in Islam and in some offshoot Christian faiths, the take is that Satan isn't really God's enemy, but rather a servant of God who God tasked with tempting mortals and testing their faith.

Which again strikes me as more proof of that "if God exists, He's a dick" idea which really argues against the whole idea anyhow, but I thought I'd toss in that idea for thought.

Honestly, it's just more of a Testament that God is above all that we consider fair or unfair. He is all that is, and all there ever was.

[Mike Smash!]

Mike, is it just not believing, or not caring?I didn't believe. Not caring would mean that I was mature enough to contemplate these things and just threw up my hands and gave up.

I didn't feel apathy. In fact, like I said above, I even wanted to be a priest for a while when I was little. More for the cool art and the costumes and the ornate ceremonies than actual belief.

I personally don't think any child truly understands belief in God until they are older and simply go through the motions the way that I did because it's what they're taught.

Like thoughts about sex, pondering one's creator isn't something a child's mind understands or would even touch unless brought to it by an outside force.

[BlairH]

Hey, even if you have faith, not testing it is a surfire sign that you din't believe that strongly. If it's been tested and come out the other side fine, then good for you, that proves how strong it is.

That's what the rest of my "voluenteer" army thinks. This guy for instance is testing his faith right now.

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/image/idf.jpg

[Gaz]

Indeed. Personally, I don't think Satan really fits the picture. If he does exist, he'd be more of a renegade Rock'n'Roll-type rebel angel then the Epitome of Evil.
Kinda like Carey's Lucifer? ;)

[cable guy]

Thanks. 'tis always good to get some affirmation :D
(not that I'm trying to build up an army of "voluenteers" or anything.....)

Trust me, I know what your saying.

[Ghost]

So basically, what we've come to understand is:

A) Some people just have faith, and they can't explain it.

B) Some people just don't have faith, and they have a hard time understanding people who do.

C) Some people are just right in the middle, and they don't get what all the fuss is about.

Does that sound about right?

[Gaz]

So basically, what we've come to understand is:

A) Some people just have faith, and they can't explain it.

B) Some people just don't have faith, and they have a hard time understanding people who do.

C) Some people are right in the middle, and they don't get what all the fuss is about.

Does that sound about right?
Bridging A and B was kind of the point. And I actually have a clearer idea of what and why it is than before, so some progress has been made.
You weren't expecting any epihpinies or conversions were you?

[Mike Smash!]

He is all that is, and all there ever was.I believe you're thinking of Bret Hart. :)

[BlairH]

Indeed. Personally, I don't think Satan really fits the picture. If he does exist, he'd be more of a renegade Rock'n'Roll-type rebel angel then the Epitome of Evil.

What kinda talk's that? That's Satan talkin'. My "voluenteer" army ought to come round and teach you a lesson.

http://www.ranger.org/images/photoGallery/2001/cqb.jpg

HA! We beat houses made of plywood just like paper beats rock!

Seriously, I liken Satan to Horus from Warhammer 40,000 in that he was one of God's chosen, utterly loyal servants. However he grew to arrogant, and there was a civil war in heaven, and Satan was cast into hell. Satan is now the most powerful entity in Hell, and hence has become it's dark lord.

[Mike Smash!]

I went to Catholic School, so as far as I can remember there was always God.

As I get older, my faith has become tested I'm ashamed to say.No, that just means your brain works, cable.

I'd be worried if you'd never questioned once or had doubts. Whatever your end result, tests of faith in just about anything are good for you.

Otherwise, your faith can't be that strong.

[Ghost]

Bridging A and B was kind of the point. And I actually have a clearer idea of what and why it is than before, so some progress has been made.
You weren't expecting any epihpinies or conversions were you?

Oh, don't get me wrong! This has been a very, very giving thread to participate in. I was just summerising my impression of the debaters. :p ;)

[Mike Smash!]

So basically, what we've come to understand is:

A) Some people just have faith, and they can't explain it.

B) Some people just don't have faith, and they have a hard time understanding people who do.

C) Some people are just right in the middle, and they don't get what all the fuss is about.

Does that sound about right? I have faith, but it's just not in a god.

And I think I have a pretty good handle on most people of faith, though one would have to be ignorant to say they understand everyone or can put all people in neatly labeled boxes.

But most of the people I know, most of my friends and most of my family believes in God.

There are as many possibilities as there are people.

[Gaz]

I believe you're thinking of Bret Hart. :)
*puts on pink shades*
Our father, who art in Calgary, Hitman be thy name...

[cable guy]

I believe you're thinking of Bret Hart. :)

LOL :D

I knew it sounded familiar. You know, God or Bret Hart, what's the difference.

[BlairH]

I went to Catholic School, so as far as I can remember there was always God.

As I get older, my faith has become tested I'm ashamed to say.

Have to remember that's what faith basically is. It's one big test. It tests how well we live our life while we're here. Providing that you have faith in the first place is a good way to "score" well in the test, because the rest has a tendancy to follow on naturally (free your mind; your ass will follow kinda thing)

[GremlinClr]

LOL :D

I knew it sounded familiar. You know, God or Bret Hart, what's the difference.

Y'know I could get behind that. Faith in God is hard, faith in Bret Hart...easy as pie. :D

[cable guy]

Have to remember that's what faith basically is. It's one big test. It tests how well we live our life while we're here. Providing that you have faith in the first place is a good way to "score" well in the test,

That is one of the main points I cling to, being that it would be too easy if there was definate proof.

[Ghost]

I have faith, but it's just not in a god.

And I think I have a pretty good handle on most people of faith, though one would have to be ignorant to say they understand everyone or can put all people in neatly labeled boxes.

But most of the people I know, most of my friends and most of my family believes in God.

There are as many possibilities as there are people.

Hmm, I think I'm going to need a longer alphabet... ;)

I now offically respect you, by the way.
And your avatar is freaking awesome.

[Alex]

I don't have it because i have never experienced anything to make me beleive the more extrodinary parts of the bible.
I've read it, i've studied it, and i understand it well enough to know i don't have the faith neccesary to follow it, and that would also go for any other religious belief system (Save for my worship for capitalism and i have faith in the freedom of music, but ...nevermind).

[Gaz]

Y'know I could get behind that. Faith in God is hard, faith in Bret Hart...easy as pie. :D
Does that make Vince McMahon the Devil? Because, not a stretch.
Hey! Shwan Michaels as Judas... this is interesting, must give it more thought *goes to do so*

[Paul McEnery]

One of my favorite conversions is his, in which he says that when he left his house (on a motorcycle trip) he was an atheist, and that when he arrived, he was a Christian, and he could not tell when the transition occured.

Did Lewis borrow that bike from Hoffman? :D

[BlairH]

Does that make Vince McMahon the Devil? Because, not a stretch.
Hey! Shwan Michaels as Judas... this is interesting, must give it more thought *goes to do so*

I don't know about that, but pro-wrestling definately constitutes heresy. Hey! Why didn't the "Hell's most wanted" banner include "wrestling fans"?

[Gaz]

I don't know about that, but pro-wrestling definately constitutes heresy. Hey! Why didn't the "Hell's most wanted" banner include "wrestling fans"?
Because Vince calls it "sports entertainment" and the banner was only so wide. :p

[Mike Smash!]

I don't know about that, but pro-wrestling definately constitutes heresy. Hey! Why didn't the "Hell's most wanted" banner include "wrestling fans"?No, it said "sports" and I believe the correct term for pro-wrestling is "sports entertainment".

Which, for a guy like McMahon, sounds awfully P.C. :)

[BlairH]

Because Vince calls it "sports entertainment" and the banner was only so wide. :p

Meh, I've never really considered it a "sport" per say. Just an excuse to watch beefcakes grope each other in very manly ways.

[Alex]

Which, for a guy like McMahon, sounds awfully P.C. :)
Vince has been getting better, he lets shelton be in some of the best matches ever, and then doesn't push him.
But he's on tv every week!

[JerrBear81]

It's hard to explain. I just feel that there is more to life than what we see, based on what we once believed. We once believed that the earth was the center of the Universe.

I guess Faith can also be described as what I believe in my heart to be right.

[Gaz]

Meh, I've never really considered it a "sport" per say. Just an excuse to watch beefcakes grope each other in very manly ways.
Just like I don't consider shooting a sport, so much as an excuse for bearded men to stroke long cylindrical objects all day... ;)

[Mike Smash!]

Vince has been getting better, he lets shelton be in some of the best matches ever, and then doesn't push him.
But he's on tv every week!So he's the new Chris Jericho, then? Poor guy.

[Alex]

So he's the new Chris Jericho, then? Poor guy.
...
.......
(OFF TOPIC!)
Jericho is going to get pushed hard as a heel soon, probably on smackdown.

[BlairH]

Just like I don't consider shooting a sport, so much as an excuse for bearded men to stroke long cylindrical objects all day... ;)

But shooting IS a sport :( I don't have a beard, but I shoot!
And surely you are bearded :confused:

[GremlinClr]

So he's the new Chris Jericho, then? Poor guy.

Well there has to be someone to take Jericho's old gimmick since he has a new one: "Fozzy is more important to me than wrestling".

[Mike Smash!]

But shooting IS a sport :( I don't have a beard, but I shoot!
And surely you are bearded :confused:I've got a beard! :D

[Gaz]

But shooting IS a sport :( I don't have a beard, but I shoot!
And surely you are bearded :confused:
Yes, but I don't stroke my rifles constantly, do I? :p

[Nate C.]

No, that just means your brain works, cable.

I'd be worried if you'd never questioned once or had doubts. Whatever your end result, tests of faith in just about anything are good for you.

Otherwise, your faith can't be that strong.

I agree with that 110%.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Ii have faith in the freedom of music,

The Church of Geddy Lee?

[Nitmo]

Which means their entire belief structure boils down to having Blind Faith in something without having a single shred of evidence to support that belief.

Which is completely and utterly irrational and illogical. To use someone else's example; you may as well believe that magical fairies are responsible for gravity. It makes just as much sense as having blind faith that some omnipotent deity is all around us, watching us in a cosmic version of 'Big Brother'.


Are you mocking my belief in fairies?

[Nitmo]

No, it said "sports" and I believe the correct term for pro-wrestling is "sports entertainment".

Which, for a guy like McMahon, sounds awfully P.C. :)

He changed it to get around tax laws.


As for myself, I've always believed science to be the measuring stick for the amazing things that the divine spirits give us.

Or to try and put it into easier to grasp terms: A rainbow is just refracted and fractured light, but does that make it any less beautiful or amazing?

[Matt]

Are you mocking my belief in fairies?

Yes. Yes, I am.

[Mike Smash!]

He changed it to get around tax laws.


As for myself, I've always believed science to be the measuring stick for the amazing things that the divine spirits give us.

Or to try and put it into easier to grasp terms: A rainbow is just refracted and fractured light, but does that make it any less beautiful or amazing?I thought he changed it because many states have laws that require sports events to have doctors on hand and Vince didn't want to pay for that.

[Nitmo]

Yes. Yes, I am.

Good, just so we're clear


And Mike: It was because sports programmers have to pay a special tax. The FCC or IRS called him on whether or not wrestling was real or staged, so he admitted it was staged, called it "sports entertainment" and got around the taxes.

[Guts/Batman]

None, for i see no need of it.

I have to live my life the way i see fit. No one else will live it for me (no matter how i want to sometimes). The only one who will save you is yourself. Now that's not trust no one, that's choose your friends wisely. You never know them as well as you think you do.

I believe when I die "that's over, it's over that's it" to borrow a line from Rocky IV. We all go the same place. The ground.

Do i believe that Jesus existed? No, I think he is a literary character created by some people who needed someone to look up to find a way to throw down the shackles of slavery (essentially that's what it was) that was the Roman Empire.

The bible, bunch of mother goose stories (or might as well be). They teach a lesson for the most part, esp the stories that Jesus tells (I might, MIGHT believe the gospels if they were written by those who lived during his time). The book of the bible that tells of the doom of the world sounds nice (as it does have the makings of a great fiction story) but won't get me believing it.

However, whether or not Jesus existed is not really important. As a student of history, the bigger question is his influence. His influence can be seen in millions and millions of things. He just doesn't have any influence over me that's all.

Also, I belive that ALL Gods from monothestic religions are the same person just called by a different name.

And if i did i would take a view of God, it would be the vengeful view of God not the loving, all caring God. That's just who I am.

[Gordon Smith]

Why would a loving, caring God let kids be born with severe birth defects, or have horrible things happen to good people?

I have an adoptive sister who suffered irreversible brain damage due to a nasty birthing accident, a foster brother with Down Syndrome and another foster sister born with such severe mental impairment that she had to be permanently institutionalized by the time she was ten. I suspect that witnessing their wholly unjustifiable and indefensible plight played no small part in the forging of my life-long commitment to diehard atheism.

[JadeDragon]

Well, there is one difference I see between the two. Belief in the divine requires you to believe in something which completely violates the observable rules and facts of the world we interact with on a daily basis. Disbelief in the divine requires no such thing. The first requires belief in something for which there is no evidence and which is contrary to evidence of things you know to be true (or as much so as we can know anything). The second stance is much more consistent with demonstrable reality (to the extent anything is demonstrable, of course).

I think you have this backwards. Allow me to explain via a story.

Two men lived in Paris. One was a rich Landowner who had faith in God. The other a Scientist who had no faith. They loved to debate the question, much like we are doing here. Neither could convince the other to see things from the other's perspective.

One day, the Landowner had a beautiful large scale clockwork model of the solar system erected in his study. It nearly filled the room, and ran by cogs and a winding mechanism, much like a giant watch. It was beautiful and intricate. He invited his Scientist friend over for brunch.

When the Scientist arrived, he was shown to the study and he was awed by the beautiful sight before him. When the Landowner joined him, the Scientist exclaimed "What a beautiful Solar System! Where did you get it? Who made it?" In a flash of wit, the Landowner said "I dont know where it came from. It just appeared there over night. I think it created itself."

"Poppycock!" said the Scientist. "Nothing as intricate and beautiful could just appear from nowhere...somebody made this with the design and craftsmanship of a master. Look at the precision!"

"Aha!" said the Landowner, "Then how can you debate that our REAL Solar System , with it's far more intricate design and execution, so flawless in it's science, symmetry and chemistry...could possibly appear from the nothing without a guiding intelligent hand and design behind IT?"

Seems to me the real leap of faith would be to believe that this intricate and beautiful universe could create itself without an intelligent Creator guiding it.


That very omnipotence is still at odds with all known things; we don't have any evidence of any things which actually transcend the laws of nature. That's not to say they don't exist, but that is to say belief in them requires belief in a whole category of reality separate from the reality we do know.

Well, being a transcendentalist, my argument would be that if you close your eyes, does the universe still exist visually? Simply because we cannot perceive something with our limited senses, does that make it more likely that it doesn't exist? Or that the defining qualities of our reality extend beyond what we are capable of perceiving? I don't think the category of reality you are referring to is separate from this reality, but permeates it and is the very sentient life energy that animates it. Even if that very sustaining quality is invisible to us.


Or, to use the analogy I've used many times, one cannot prove that the phenomena we attribute to gravity are not actually caused by the magical powers of invisible, intangible fairies. Inability to disprove the existence of said fairies does not necessitate our believing in them, however, and in fact there is no good reason to believe in them. Same re: God.

I bet folks in the early 1100's would think you ridiculous if you said that they were made up of teeny tiny organisms, all working together...invisible creatures living in their bloodstream, delivering invisible molecules of air to other living creatures making up their lung systems. Now that we have advanced our powers of perception, in this case through scientific amplification, we understand these truths. Until man amplifies his powers of spiritual perceptions, I suppose it is a matter of faith to believe in the 'invisibles'. Doesnt necessarily mean they do not exist. Or that one day these things will be commonly perceived and accepted.

I ask this because religious people will say that "God is omnipotent" if that's the case then I don't understand how anyone can worship such a being.

If God is omnipotent and nothing can oppose his will, then why does evil and Satan (who by the way he created as well) exist? God and his "divine plan" are the reason humanity suffers.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if God loves his children so much we shouldn't suffer like we do. *SHRUG*

This is an age old question and one of the reasons man first started contemplating the nature and meaning of life and reality.

I believe that humans are spirit students, reincarnating here on earth many many times and every life situation teaches a much needed lesson based on karma from previous existences. So a short life, or tragedy filled life is only one chapter in a long series of life lessons. If you cause harm or hurt to certain fellow beings, in your next life it will be taught to you how it feels to experience that from the other end. It is the golden rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

This karmic repercussion is how equality in all things is maintained in this reality where no mathematics can exist without an equal sign in the middle of an equation. This is how it is set up. What seems a terrible thing to us is a part of the drama of life and lessons in kindergaarten Earth. Since this world is an illusion of light particles, infused with the consciousness of God, all of life is like a movie. We cannot see the beam of light, but we experience the illusion of 3 dimensions when run through the projector of time, displayed upon the screen of space.

When your consciousness escapes the confines of your limited mortal body, trapped in a world defined by 5 senses, the entire picture is revealed and understood, until it is time to encapsulate your evolving soul in a new body for another romp through life and another series of lessons.

The way out of compulsory reincarnation is through elimination of binding karma. Unfulfilled desires glue you to the cycle of life, and part of eliminating that is by awakening to the idea that life is an illusion, that you are the consciousness of God living within His Created Illusion. We bind our souls to the idea of having mortal bodies, and forget our divinity, thinking that material happiness is the only important thing in life. Ego is formed and that is what keeps you from awakening to the truth. Enlightenment is Self Realization...that inside you is the spirit of the Creator of this universe and reality. Jesus realized this, as did many many others. Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Patanjali, etc.

The path to enlightenment isnt through a blind leap of faith, but a conscious awakening of perceptions inwardly into spirit. Across the rainbow bridge of the cerebrospinal column upwards into occult chakras of the medulla oblongata and polar opposite, the third eye. Sounds like a bunch of new age gobbledygook, Im sure, but its something you can believe in based on actual experience. Not because someone told you it's true. The only true way of knowing God is going inside and actually saying "Hi"! Knock on the inner doorway of perception and He will answer.

Just my own subjective perceptions and beliefs there. Ive had some amazing experiences along these lines.

Namaste!~~~JadeDragon

[Sanagi]

Two men lived in Paris. One was a rich Landowner who had faith in God. The other a Scientist who had no faith. They loved to debate the question, much like we are doing here. Neither could convince the other to see things from the other's perspective.

One day, the Landowner had a beautiful large scale clockwork model of the solar system erected in his study. It nearly filled the room, and ran by cogs and a winding mechanism, much like a giant watch. It was beautiful and intricate. He invited his Scientist friend over for brunch.

When the Scientist arrived, he was shown to the study and he was awed by the beautiful sight before him. When the Landowner joined him, the Scientist exclaimed "What a beautiful Solar System! Where did you get it? Who made it?" In a flash of wit, the Landowner said "I dont know where it came from. It just appeared there over night. I think it created itself."

"Poppycock!" said the Scientist. "Nothing as intricate and beautiful could just appear from nowhere...somebody made this with the design and craftsmanship of a master. Look at the precision!"

"Aha!" said the Landowner, "Then how can you debate that our REAL Solar System , with it's far more intricate design and execution, so flawless in it's science, symmetry and chemistry...could possibly appear from the nothing without a guiding intelligent hand and design behind IT?"

Seems to me the real leap of faith would be to believe that this intricate and beautiful universe could create itself without an intelligent Creator guiding it.The obvious flaw in this analogy is that the solar system didn't appear overnight.

[Mike Smash!]

I think you have this backwards. Allow me to explain via a story.

Two men lived in Paris. One was a rich Landowner who had faith in God. The other a Scientist who had no faith. They loved to debate the question, much like we are doing here. Neither could convince the other to see things from the other's perspective.

One day, the Landowner had a beautiful large scale clockwork model of the solar system erected in his study. It nearly filled the room, and ran by cogs and a winding mechanism, much like a giant watch. It was beautiful and intricate. He invited his Scientist friend over for brunch.

When the Scientist arrived, he was shown to the study and he was awed by the beautiful sight before him. When the Landowner joined him, the Scientist exclaimed "What a beautiful Solar System! Where did you get it? Who made it?" In a flash of wit, the Landowner said "I dont know where it came from. It just appeared there over night. I think it created itself."

"Poppycock!" said the Scientist. "Nothing as intricate and beautiful could just appear from nowhere...somebody made this with the design and craftsmanship of a master. Look at the precision!"

"Aha!" said the Landowner, "Then how can you debate that our REAL Solar System , with it's far more intricate design and execution, so flawless in it's science, symmetry and chemistry...could possibly appear from the nothing without a guiding intelligent hand and design behind IT?"

Seems to me the real leap of faith would be to believe that this intricate and beautiful universe could create itself without an intelligent Creator guiding it.

Then what or who made God?

[Gideon Quinn]

Pretty much like it says. Those of you with a strong faith, where did it come from, why does it endure all the sh*t in the world right now?
And if, like me, you're agnostic/atheist, why don't you have faith, if you had it and lost it, why?

And a warning, debate over "issues" is fine, but if it degenerates into "*insert faith here* is bigoted!" or "You're all sinners and damned for not beliving the same as me", then I won't hesitate to ask for Brian to close this thread.Why believe in something that serves only as a way to escape the reality of our world? I am not into escapism.

[Mike Smash!]

I am not into escapism.That's hard to believe. I thought we were all comic book fans.

[Guts/Batman]

That's hard to believe. I thought we were all comic book fans.


It's different. A comic book is tangible. You can touch it, feel it.

Faith is not.

[Gideon Quinn]

That's hard to believe. I thought we were all comic book fans.Reading something and believing in it are two different things.

[Guts/Batman]

Reading something and believing in it are two different things.


True as well.

[Mike Smash!]

I wasn't equating comic books with religion. Manchurian said he wasn't much for escapism and comic books are all about escapism.

Unless you read JLA for its stark reality.

[JadeDragon]

The obvious flaw in this analogy is that the solar system didn't appear overnight.

The point is that at