When did Batman become BatGod?

[Orion101]

I know Batman has always been this incredibly skilled fighter and detective, but I heard that their was once a time when he wasn't this infallable living computer. Where he wasn't this arrogant jerk who thought he was above other heroes, where he was genuinely Batman and not what some fans have termed BatGod. My question is when did this happen and how was he portrayed before this.

[Matches Malone]

Grant Morrison's run on JLA was when the "batgod" term started getting tossed around a lot.

[sirgod]

Batman Planned It way Back in the past.

Stephen

[Mister Intensity]

I also think that O'Neil edited Batman where he became unbeatable against outrageous odds of the late-80's, early-90's was also a big factor in the "Bat-God" interpretation.

Mister Intensity

[fuaak]

Morrison's JLA is the usual scapegoat - when somebody writes Superman and Martian Manhunter using their powers in the smart way, Bats only pulls his weight when beefed up substantially - but it started before that, in Batman's own comics.

[Nights]

Personally I think there is no batgod or uberbat.. I think that anytime he comes out on top when other heros are around some people just freak out.. Lots of people have this stupid vision that no powers equal less a threat than ever one else. So we get long drawn out posts saying Uber Bat strikes again when Batman does anything instead of stay back and look in aww in the faces of the near gods he hangs with..

I personally like the idea that a mere man worries all these overpower would be gods.

[fuaak]

It's more about the way a non-powered character who claims to be the World's Best In Everything At Once makes all the other non-powered characters look bad in comparison. For every character to get a chance to shine, there needs to be people who are better fighters, better planners, better scientists or detectives than Batman.

Thankfully, the problem seems to be slowly getting fixed.

[Nights]

I would personally like to see these moments when some one else could shine. The JLA till resently have only been filled with non science characters.. so Batman and J'Onn take that spot with sometime Clark when he thinks.

Better fighters in the JLA well wonder Woman but really Batman should be the best in his weight class...

I don't remember see Batman out shine anyone in there shown speciality. If you have a explame that isnt the writers fault for being just lazy then I may agree.

[fuaak]

Newsflash: There is more to DCU than JLA.

[Guts/Batman]

Newsflash: There is more to DCU than JLA.


Doesn't sem like it. lol

[Boomstick King]

It sells comics. People would rather read about a normal person beating super powered people, than super powered people beating normal people. For this to work they kind of made Batman amazing at everything.

[fuaak]

It sells comics. People would rather read about a normal person beating super powered people, than super powered people beating normal people. For this to work they kind of made Batman amazing at everything.
Because, of course, Batman is the only non-powered character in the DC universe?

Things went so bad in the 80-90's that Bats could have legitimately claimed to be a better archer than Green Arrow and nobody would have batted (excuse the pun) an eyelid.

[steeler80]

I also think that O'Neil edited Batman where he became unbeatable against outrageous odds of the late-80's, early-90's was also a big factor in the "Bat-God" interpretation.

Mister Intensity

I've seen this stated a lot that the problem was exacerbated during O'Neil's term as editor. I've always found it fascinating that his run as writer in the 70s is looked as a high point of the charcter yet his run as editor is seen as when the character derailed somewhat.

[IamtheRock3]

Because, of course, Batman is the only non-powered character in the DC universe?

Things went so bad in the 80-90's that Bats could have legitimately claimed to be a better archer than Green Arrow and nobody would have batted (excuse the pun) an eyelid.


He the only non powered Guy in the JLU

It the Humans can do well to factor. Look at Avengers. Captain America tends to be the one that saves the day. It more impressive, Or Punisher was the uber badass when he was on the Knights for a little while.

[fuaak]

We aren't talking about JLU, it's a universe of its own. We're talking about the main DC continuity where there are dozens of non-powered types, all of whom deserve their turn in the spotlight. You'll notice that Capmerica isn't/wasn't allowed to outshine people like Hawkeye, Falcon, Punisher, Fury etc.

The problem wasn't that humans could do well, it was that, for too many years, ONLY Batman could "do well". He destroyed his worst enemies like they were nothing and humiliated his fellow heroes by always outperforming them. I don't care about him once in a great while punking Superman or something, I care about him making all the other NON-powered types look like sh_t. It should not be allowed.

[Mainline]

Even if we're talking JLU he's not the only non-powered guy... there's Question, Green Arrow, and Huntress at least.

Whether there's a Batgod or not, he certainly thinks of himself as one considering he's tried to fashion an ad hoc form of omniscience for himself...

[IamtheRock3]

How often have those guys actully showed up the main DC roster

Heck Question VERY rare to show up

The JLA mostly about the big 7 now. If Question, Huntress, Arsenel showed up on JLA regularly I see your point


Plus Green Arrow has some high end feats cause of the Archers are cool factor

Captain America Does outshine most of the high powered heros..99 percent of the time the last man standing

[Forsaken_One]

How often have those guys actully showed up the main DC roster

Heck Question VERY rare to show up

The JLA mostly about the big 7 now. If Question, Huntress, Arsenel showed up on JLA regularly I see your point


Plus Green Arrow has some high end feats cause of the Archers are cool factor

Captain America Does outshine most of the high powered heros..99 percent of the time the last man standing
Um... dude. They were talking about the JLU, the Justice League Unlimited cartoon show. Not the JLA, the Justice League of America comic book. Question, Huntress, Green Arrow, and Black Canary (only mildly metahuman) all have very big roles in the latest seasons of JLU.

[Mister Intensity]

I've seen this stated a lot that the problem was exacerbated during O'Neil's term as editor. I've always found it fascinating that his run as writer in the 70s is looked as a high point of the charcter yet his run as editor is seen as when the character derailed somewhat.

The sad thing is that his stint as editor, unfortunately taints my view of him as a writer, meaning that O'Neil as Editor sticks in my mind longer than O'Neil as a writer in the 70's. Then again there is a gap of at least 15 years between the works he did as a writer with Neal Adams and his stint as Editor.

It is sad that the guy who is attributed with saving Batman in the 70's is the same guy who destroyed him (at least in my eyes) in the 80's and 90's.

Mister Intensity

[IamtheRock3]

Um... dude. They were talking about the JLU, the Justice League Unlimited cartoon show. Not the JLA, the Justice League of America comic book. Question, Huntress, Green Arrow, and Black Canary (only mildly metahuman) all have very big roles in the latest seasons of JLU.


Not at the start of the thread they werent. And not from what I responding to from mainlain

"Even if we're talking JLU he's not the only non-powered guy... there's Question, Green Arrow, and Huntress at least.

Whether there's a Batgod or not, he certainly thinks of himself as one considering he's tried to fashion an ad hoc form of omniscience for himself..."

And Even then there just wrong for differnt reasons. Green Arrow, Question, Gl all had big roles

heck first season Green lantern probally had the biggest role. And Hawkgirl was the one that save the day

[Mainline]

Look you said EXACTLY this:
He the only non powered Guy in the JLU

That's a flat out falsehood. It isn't true. It's bunk. A lie. A mistake.

Beyond the fact Batman's name is Bruce and not Guy....

You didn't say, "He's the only non-powered main character that shows up frequently." I was responding specifically to that mis-statement, back-pedaling now and adding conditions to your statement do nothing for the point that Batgod threatens to outshine other non-metas in their own specialties. Take Wildcat. Fighter non-meta "god" of the DCU. EVERYONE learns from Ted Grant. His LIFE is dedicated to fighting and training to fight. Arguably he has more hand to hand fighting experience than anyone else in the League.

And yet...

A batfan will not even blink and tell you Batman can beat Wildcat in a fist fight hands down. Frankly, such belief is embarassing, IMO and a disservice to all the other non-meta characters.

[Peter]

I know Batman has always been this incredibly skilled fighter and detective, but I heard that their was once a time when he wasn't this infallable living computer....

You mean Batman right now?

Sure, back in the early days of JLA Batman was fairly uber, but at the moment, with how things are in the DCU?

As a friend of mine on Rumbles said, currently Batman has been replaced by BatGimp, who is locked in a box except for when the writers need somebody to be beaten, humiliated, humbled, or act like a complete jerk.

[Guts/Batman]

As a friend of mine on Rumbles said, currently Batman has been replaced by BatGimp, who is locked in a box except for when the writers need somebody to be beaten, humiliated, humbled, or act like a complete jerk.


I would agree with that. Which writers don't hate Batman?

[IamtheRock3]

Look you said EXACTLY this:


That's a flat out falsehood. It isn't true. It's bunk. A lie. A mistake.

Beyond the fact Batman's name is Bruce and not Guy....

You didn't say, "He's the only non-powered main character that shows up frequently." I was responding specifically to that mis-statement, back-pedaling now and adding conditions to your statement do nothing for the point that Batgod threatens to outshine other non-metas in their own specialties. Take Wildcat. Fighter non-meta "god" of the DCU. EVERYONE learns from Ted Grant. His LIFE is dedicated to fighting and training to fight. Arguably he has more hand to hand fighting experience than anyone else in the League.

And yet...

A batfan will not even blink and tell you Batman can beat Wildcat in a fist fight hands down. Frankly, such belief is embarassing, IMO and a disservice to all the other non-meta characters.

Ooooook misspoke then. When I hear JLA I think of big Seven
MOST of the time he the Only Human on JLA

His bad God moments tend to be around the big seven. Maybe it could be because Catman was kind of a Jobber perhaps

Think you can find bats fans that give a nod to shag Chi, Shiva, the Bronze Tiger and the like

[Lurch]

I personally prefer the uber-Bats to the more fallable one of the past. Bruce Wayne is the world's greatest detective. He is also one of the top five or ten hand to hand combatants in the world. He is a genius, and an obsessed, driven one at that. I don't find it surprising that there are very few problems that he can't solve, at least in theory, and I don't find it surprising that he, as a non-meta, would be extremely cautious in regards to the potential threats that could be caused by all of these meta's that he associates with. On the other hand, I dislike the rude and arrogant tone that he constantly takes with his comrades. I understand that he would be shoirt with Hal Jordan, but I really don't understand why he behaves like such an ass towards GA. Considering GA practically worshipped the Batman at the onset of his career, you would think that he would be a bit flattered and cut the guy some slack in spite of their ideological differences.

[1HELLBOY]

The terms BatGod, or UberBat, make me think of someone who has powers. Batman's greatest power is, and always will be, his mind. THAT'S where the "UberBat" comes from. People blow things way out of proportion. If Batman beats somebody like, lets say, Superman, it's ONLY becuase he used his BRAIN to do it. Like in Hush, he led Supes into the Metropolis sewer systems which were lead-lined, set flash bombs in strategically placed spots, blinded him slightly, made Superman hit a high voltage electrical conduit, used his green K ring, and then told Catwoman to "kidnap" any one of the three people that Supes cares about in Metropolis. Knowing full well that Supes would react to that in the way Batman knew he would. He "defeated" Superman in the same way he defeats almost ALL his adversaries. Not with braun, but with brain.

[IamtheRock3]

I personally prefer the uber-Bats to the more fallable one of the past. Bruce Wayne is the world's greatest detective. He is also one of the top five or ten hand to hand combatants in the world. He is a genius, and an obsessed, driven one at that. I don't find it surprising that there are very few problems that he can't solve, at least in theory, and I don't find it surprising that he, as a non-meta, would be extremely cautious in regards to the potential threats that could be caused by all of these meta's that he associates with. On the other hand, I dislike the rude and arrogant tone that he constantly takes with his comrades. I understand that he would be shoirt with Hal Jordan, but I really don't understand why he behaves like such an ass towards GA. Considering GA practically worshipped the Batman at the onset of his career, you would think that he would be a bit flattered and cut the guy some slack in spite of their ideological differences.


IS GA green arrow

Because remeber them getting along..till you know RECENTLY. So he might have a good reason to dislike depending how long it been sense bats find out.

[Lurch]

Good point, but I was recalling an issue of GA where Mia and Bats got into an ebay bidding war with a former GA villian. They were bidding on the Arrow car that was previously thought to have been destroyed. Batman bought the car for Ollie, which was a really nice thing to do. But his motives weren't kindness to an old friend, he was trying to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. And as I recall, he acted like a real butthead about it.

Another example; During IC, Bats has examined the crime scene of Sue Dibney's murder. The note he left Ollie telling him, "Don't touch anything!", had a distinctly condescending tone, as if he were dealing with a child. Uncalled for, if you ask me.

[Guts/Batman]

What about in Rebirth part 6 where he is telling Hal to explain all that has gone on while the Parallax monster is right in front of them all.

That wa spretty dickish

[Peter]

What about in Rebirth part 6 where he is telling Hal to explain all that has gone on while the Parallax monster is right in front of them all.

Ah, the same series where Hal chews Batman for being a paranoid dick, *despite* the glaring fact that Hal was implicit in brainwashing Batman in the past and therefore giving him every reason in the world to, in fact, be paranoid?

Personally, I also prefer the uber "ten steps ahead of everyone else" Batman as well. He should be the guy who can make gods shift around nervously in his presence, the one human who the metahumans are worried about.

[Lurch]

Ah, the same series where Hal chews Batman for being a paranoid dick, *despite* the glaring fact that Hal was implicit in brainwashing Batman in the past and therefore giving him every reason in the world to, in fact, be paranoid?

Personally, I also prefer the uber "ten steps ahead of everyone else" Batman as well. He should be the guy who can make gods shift around nervously in his presence, the one human who the metahumans are worried about.


He may have been implicit, but Hal did vote against the mindwipe, didn't he?

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

I don't know about Hal, but I definately got the impression that Ollie voted no & Carter voted yes, this being what they came to blows over.

[IamtheRock3]

They voted no on Dr light

They said Batman decesion was unnaminous which pretty F up sense Dr light a rapist

[IamtheRock3]

Good point, but I was recalling an issue of GA where Mia and Bats got into an ebay bidding war with a former GA villian. They were bidding on the Arrow car that was previously thought to have been destroyed. Batman bought the car for Ollie, which was a really nice thing to do. But his motives weren't kindness to an old friend, he was trying to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. And as I recall, he acted like a real butthead about it.

Another example; During IC, Bats has examined the crime scene of Sue Dibney's murder. The note he left Ollie telling him, "Don't touch anything!", had a distinctly condescending tone, as if he were dealing with a child. Uncalled for, if you ask me.


Well with the car he was upset the weapons could get in the wrong hands. With IC he was starting to remember.

I may be wrong but from what I read from the past..like Hush stuff him and Ollie didnt really dislike each other that much

[kartik]

Good point, but I was recalling an issue of GA where Mia and Bats got into an ebay bidding war with a former GA villian. They were bidding on the Arrow car that was previously thought to have been destroyed. Batman bought the car for Ollie, which was a really nice thing to do. But his motives weren't kindness to an old friend, he was trying to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. And as I recall, he acted like a real butthead about it.

Another example; During IC, Bats has examined the crime scene of Sue Dibney's murder. The note he left Ollie telling him, "Don't touch anything!", had a distinctly condescending tone, as if he were dealing with a child. Uncalled for, if you ask me.

Sorry but i gotta disagree as well. The note said, "Ollie, Crime Scene's done, Results soon, JUST DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING"
(I jus checked up)
To me it sounded more like an acknowledgement that Ollie or another superhero may have been really desperate to know what had happened and may have contaminated the crime scene.
As to the first bit, i never read the issue, but seems to me that it's quite right of batman not to want the car falling into the wrong hands.

[Lurch]

Sorry but i gotta disagree as well. The note said, "Ollie, Crime Scene's done, Results soon, JUST DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING"
(I jus checked up)
To me it sounded more like an acknowledgement that Ollie or another superhero may have been really desperate to know what had happened and may have contaminated the crime scene.
As to the first bit, i never read the issue, but seems to me that it's quite right of batman not to want the car falling into the wrong hands.

As to the former, it still came across as condescending. As if to say...Don't F**k anything up Ollie!

And to the latter, I said exactly what you said about him not wanting the car to fall into the wrong hands, but if you'll read the story, he comes across like an arrogant ass.

[Forsaken_One]

They voted no on Dr light

They said Batman decesion was unnaminous which pretty F up sense Dr light a rapist
I am so. F***ing. Tired of this crap.

The vote on Dr. Light was to change his personality completely.

The vote on Batman was to wipe the last few minutes of his memory.

While it was still a betrayal, comparing the vote for/against Batman to the vote for/against Dr. Light isn't possible.

[TheUnknownZombie]

I am so. F***ing. Tired of this crap.

The vote on Dr. Light was to change his personality completely.

The vote on Batman was to wipe the last few minutes of his memory.

While it was still a betrayal, comparing the vote for/against Batman to the vote for/against Dr. Light isn't possible.
They didn't change his personality, but they still changed his memory to get out of the trouble they were in. When Batman's main advantage is the information he has, and you take away a vital piece of his experiences just because you don't want to get caught, then that's a huge betrayal.

So Batman, a friend/colleague of theirs was suddenly unaware that 1. They changed the minds of villains, and 2. They'd do the same to him in an instant.

[IamtheRock3]

I am so. F***ing. Tired of this crap.

The vote on Dr. Light was to change his personality completely.

The vote on Batman was to wipe the last few minutes of his memory.

While it was still a betrayal, comparing the vote for/against Batman to the vote for/against Dr. Light isn't possible.


Just responding to the fact someone said Hal voted againt the mindwipe. Batman was unamnious. While the wipe not as bad it still F up for differnt reasons

Sense I dont actully care about Dr light and think he got what was coming
unlike Dr light batman was a friend.

My beef is the unaminous part of that. You think it be SOMEONE disagreeing. Because if they do it to bats who else would they do it too.

[Guts/Batman]

Just responding to the fact someone said Hal voted againt the mindwipe. Batman was unamnious. While the wipe not as bad it still F up for differnt reasons

Sense I dont actully care about Dr light and think he got what was coming
unlike Dr light batman was a friend.

My beef is the unaminous part of that. You think it be SOMEONE disagreeing. Because if they do it to bats who else would they do it too.


Flash and MM even voted in favor of it?

[IamtheRock3]

MM wasnt on JLA at the time so wasnt there to vote

Flash did though. Unaminous means unamminous

[Guts/Batman]

MM wasnt on JLA at the time so wasnt there to vote

Flash did though. Unaminous means unamminous


Yea. Just kinda surprised me as i thought that the Flash was more oa Batman guy than not.

[IamtheRock3]

Think If jesus himself came in on Dr light

they would try to erase his memory

[trickster]

Well, I see a lot of bat haters here. First of all, the fact that he's harsh and APPARENTLY rude to everybody is to be expected. He's aging, he's no longer 20. He's had the most disappointments of all the leaguers, except maybe Manhunter. He's had his parents gunned down in front of him, Jason Todd was murdered by Joker, Batgirl was crippled, he's seen Harvey Dent go crazy, Nightwing distance himself from him, Thomas Elliot betray him, he's been framed for murder, lost Sasha Bordeaux and Vesper Fairchild (two women he's loved). At the moment, Jim Gordon is retired, meaning Batman has lost one of his best friends, Jason Todd is back and he's bent on revenge, Talia no longer loves him, Selina Kyle has betrayed him (or at least he thinks she has betrayed him), the Gotham Police no longer favors him. Unlike all the other leaguers who have more or less have had a cozy life (Superman is married, he's got his adoptive parents and he works at the Daily Planet, meaning he is surrounded by people), Bruce has always lived alone with his butler as his only company. It's no wonder he's so jaded and distrustful. Between the sharks in the high finance and the human scum he's seen and battled every night for years, it would be surprising if he wasn't. And the fact that he's been betrayed by the only people he trusted (the JLA) can only make him even more cautious and thorny (I mean Zatanna deserved what she got when he told her "I wanted to talk to someone I can trust. But I had to settle for you").

...
Don't F**k anything up Ollie

And as for him being disrespectful to Green Arrow, Batman is familiar with police procedures so when he said "don't move anything" he was just making sure none of the leaguers would accidentally erase some clues, especially since he's the one with the detective mind.

It's more about the way a non-powered character who claims to be the World's Best In Everything At Once makes all the other non-powered characters look bad in comparison. For every character to get a chance to shine, there needs to be people who are better fighters, better planners, better scientists or detectives than Batman.

Thankfully, the problem seems to be slowly getting fixed.

You can't get better fighters than Batman. Because Superman, Manhunter, WW, are far more powerful then him, they don't have to be good fighters since they are almost invulnerable. And you say you want a better planner? Who are you going to get except for maybe Manhunter? To be really honest, Superman is just a brawler, and/also isn't even that bright (remember that episode in JLU where Bats tells WW "next time I let Clark take charge, hit me. Real hard!"),
(Superman's villains, Mongul, Metallo, are brawlers, Batman's villains Joker, Two Face, Riddler are thinkers). Zatanna is a magician, not a strategist, and she doesn't have to be a scientist to do magic (although she must be pretty smart if she can say all those phrases backwards on the spot). Green Arrow is most of all a loudmouth that doesn't excel at anything (OK I'll admit I don't really like him, but I think you'll agree with me). Bats is the best strategist because he knows that in the end he's human and vulnerable physically meaning he won't attack recklessly, and despite the fact that he is a man of principles, like Darkseid said, "he has the strength of character to destroy an entire planet to achieve success", something Superman and Wonder Woman can't do.

[Guts/Batman]

Talia no longer loves him? Kinda surprises me.

[Colossus]

I can’t pinpoint the exact issue that the Uberbat was born because it happened gradually.

There was a time when Batman was just “good” at a lot of things. When he became the “absolute best” at everything is when he was assassinated as a character.

I also think that the huge backlash that has been starting to swell up is because other characters have to be dumbed down so Bats is relevant when compared to the metas in the DCU, WW and Superman, especially.

I really believe the “Uber” batman has run out of steam.

I think of all the changes that have been made, it is not the Uberbat but the complete disappearance of Bruce Wayne as a character from the Batman books that I have the most trouble accepting.

[trickster]

Talia no longer loves him? Kinda surprises me.
Well, she did say to him in "Death and the Maidens" after Ra's al'Ghul was killed "that there there will be no more beloved here".

You may be right when you say that he's been made into an "Uberbat" but let's face it, this is what comics do. They give us an idealized image of people. I don't hear nobody here bitching about why do all the superheroines have to be long legged, drop dead gorgeous, tall, slim and huge breasted to top it all off, meaning they are all supermodels (if you'll pardon the expression) which is obviously unrealistic (I mean how come no ugly female like Amanda Waller for example "decides" to become a superhero crime fighter)? Is it because if one did the beautiful ones would make fun of her till she turned to a supervillain? :D You'd think those beautiful women would have something better to do than risk getting their brains blown out getting fried by magicians and other SV's (like doing Playboy centerfolds :) ). But the moment we have an "ordinary" human male that seems to rival the metahumans , we go all out because he's "dumbing down the other characters" and he's "unrealistic". He's not dumbing anyone down and second, if I wanted to read about ordinary people I'd read the newspaper, thank you. After all Batman is a SUPERhero, with all that entails from this. Let him be a superhero and just enjoy it.

[Peter]

The vote on Dr. Light was to change his personality completely.

The vote on Batman was to wipe the last few minutes of his memory..

And one of those people was a dangerous supervillain, while the other was a teammate and, in some cases, a close friend.

So yes, let's continue to compare the two cases, because it *does* say one heck of a lot about those 'heroes' (and I use the term loosely), doesn't it?

[sir_snikt'alot]

And one of those people was a dangerous supervillain, while the other was a teammate and, in some cases, a close friend.

So yes, let's continue to compare the two cases, because it *does* say one heck of a lot about those 'heroes' (and I use the term loosely), doesn't it?

i wonder if batman would of done the same if it was the other way around and they had to memory wipe,lets say,supe's or flash?

[IamtheRock3]

naaaa he all ways been againts messing with the brain

Think he did it ounce with a truth syrum and felt bad about just that. So dought he do it to people he call friends.

But I think he could be talk to and understand what happen to Dr light. I mean he went for the martian thing.

My beef is they didnt even TRY to talk to the man. They had his butt frozen so they could of mindwipe him anyway if they couldnt talk him down.


On the batgod front


That deffintly ended lately

[IamtheRock3]

To tell you the truth was out of charcter for some of the satalite Era to do it too then it would be batman

I mean Ollie all ways calling people facist. Surprise he went down with all the mindwipes..let alone batman. A punch to hawkman wasn't enough.