IDENTITY CRISIS: Questions & Discussion *Spoilers*

[NickVinson]

Im doing this in the name of Science. Just simply click an answer. And lets keep the attacks to other threads. Im simply curious as too the public opinion without flame wars. Keep the disertations to the other thread. This isn't Crossfire.


Yes. Fantastic Series

No. Worst thing ever.

Dont Know. Didnt read it.

Thank you and have a nice day.

[stealthwise]

I thought it was all right. It certainly wasn't of poor quality overall.

[Sean Whitmore]

Can't there be a "loved most of it/hated some of it" vote?



SEAN

[Gurl Reader]

Loved it for the most part.

[pennywisdom]

Can't there be a "loved most of it/hated some of it" vote?
I agree. I'll click on the "positive" option, because there aren't any inbetween choices.

[Lurch]

I agree that you didn't give us enough in-between choices. It was a great whodunit story until the reveal. But I have to give it high marks overall for being ambitious. And even if you hated it, you have to admit it had a lot of us discussing it. I think maybe I enjoy that aspect of a comic almost as much as reading it.

[GoblinEcks]

I loved it. A very well writing story on all fronts. I loved how the writers made it clear that batman and superman do not really fit in with the rest of the league. That Batman and Superman are on a different level of hero than the rest. That Batman and Superman would not only put their lives on the line but also there families to protect their beliefs on how a hero should act.

[HumanTorch09]

It was great until the killer was revealed (I wanted it to be the person at the end of issue 6, but oh well).

[pennywisdom]

I loved most of it. It was ambitious, bold, a great mystery, it reminded the world that DC's rogues are genuinely badass, and showed us that heroes are flawed, too. The only thing I didn't like was that it might have been a bit too extreme in parts (although that's a small price to pay for a comic book story actually worth talking about) and although I like Rags Morales, I didn't think he was as well-suited to this particular story as some people thought he was. High points for having the balls to actually go through with a story like this. It didn't tear away at the characters, but it did make them question themselves. It was a challenging story on many levels.

[NickVinson]

Well... it says enjoyed it. Doesnt that count? No? I screw the pooch?

*cry* :(

[NickVinson]

I agree that you didn't give us enough in-between choices. It was a great whodunit story until the reveal. But I have to give it high marks overall for being ambitious. And even if you hated it, you have to admit it had a lot of us discussing it. I think maybe I enjoy that aspect of a comic almost as much as reading it.


Part of me is having a hard time believing the contrary. Id like to believe that it was just that effective as a story. But deep down... I think Meltzer and DC knew how to end each issue. Manipulation masters.

I havent anticipated a comic like this in YEARS. I mean, when was the last time you were on pins and needles in between issues and for months while trying to figure out the killer and the discussions... Wooo. Wore me out.

[ForEverAncien]

Part of me is having a hard time believing the contrary. Id like to believe that it was just that effective as a story. But deep down... I think Meltzer and DC knew how to end each issue. Manipulation masters.

I havent anticipated a comic like this in YEARS. I mean, when was the last time you were on pins and needles in between issues and for months while trying to figure out the killer and the discussions... Wooo. Wore me out.

On that I can agree...but mercy, what a way to go out...if they did this to ever other book, I think every collector will be up in arms, cause the stress will be too much to bare, like with these cliffhangers, done in IC.

Then again, it won't be a bad thing either... :rolleyes:

[NickVinson]

The last 7 months made me EXCITED ABOUT COMICS! I havent been Excited about comics since I was 12. Im 23 now. The last time I can even recall being in anticipation was during No Man's Land. Right around when Rucka was doing the middle bits. and even THAT pales in comparison to how much I want it to be Dec 15, 2004. Weeks ive waited.

And I kinda like that it ended on a whimper.

Now.. Onto the LOSH reboot. Is it December 29 yet?

[thetechnocrat]

It was a fun ride. Issues 1-6 kept me guessing all the way. The last issue was crap.

I thought Rags' pencils could've been better. They were awesome on Hawkman.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I haven't got Issue 7# yet...but I give the series an A+. It really showed how far some heroes will go to protect thier friends and family. Is It too much what they did? I can't answer that , but as Ollie said: "It was the only thing we could do."


You see 2 definitions of Hero In this. Those who will stand by what they believe and scarifice It all to keep that mantle of Hero. And those who don't want to sacrifice those dear to them. It was a good tale.

[EZMOHR]

Here is how I feel about it. Imagine you are watching the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy from start to finish. You watch the first 8 hours, and it is like....wow this is one of the coolest things I have ever seen (Issues 1-6 of Identity Crisis). Then, you get to that last hour and they introduce a new character named Gigli. And, basically, Gigli, Gollum, and Faramir run off into the sunset with the ring, and marry the product of Ishtar being crossed with Battlefield Earth (Issue #7 of Identity Crisis). I am usually not very critical of stuff I read, but, IC #7 maybe the worst ending to a great story that I have ever seen. It is the biggest let down since......Well EVER!!!!! Number Seven is the worst comic book I have ever read. PERIOD. Brad Metzler should be ashamed. Now, everybody can call me a bitter fan boy or whatever they like, but, I honestly feel cheated out of the 3 bucks I spent on this comic. And to defend myself, I don't usually trash people's writing, but this was the lamest of the lame. In my opinion, I have never felt cheated buying a comic until today. Sorry for the mean comments.

[MJC]

I liked it until the ending.

[DonC]

Yeah, you can count me among the people who felt a huge let-down with the ending. It was just stupid. There's no other word for it.

[yeoman]

I don't think I've ever even *thought* about quitting buying comics. If I have it was never seriously.

Until Identity Crisis.

[EZMOHR]

I don't think I've ever even *thought* about quitting buying comics. If I have it was never seriously.

Until Identity Crisis.

Well, I won't stop buying comics.....but if it has the name Brad Metzler on it....I won't buy it.

[Brian R]

I thought the last issue was the weakest, but the series is still very good overall. I dont have a problem with the choice, but it just didnt surprise me, especially after reading everything on these boards, it seemed like one of the obvious choices. Also, we get NOTHING about Dr. Light, which I have a hard time buying.

I still checked "Enjoyed it", because I did, but its not the best thing ever. Of course, with all the hype around this mini, and especially this last issue, what were the odds that it would actually live up to it?

Oh, and Im sorry for not being able to put this more diplomatically, but people who are contemplating quitting comics over this? Dumb. Im sorry, but there have been much worse comics published THIS YEAR, let alone ever. Sure, everyone is entitled to overreact, but thats just the most overboard I have ever seen. Thats like me saying I would never buy another Marvel comic because of Avengers Disassembled(which was the worst story of the year by a rather large margin), just crazy.

[EZMOHR]

The reason why this was worse than Avengers: Dissassembeld.....That one according to most people, started off like crap. Me personally, I had no stake in the characters, so I enjoyed the story. In IC, the story was so good up until #7, that this sham that came out today seems like a totally different book. It does not even seem like IC. It is almost like somebody splicing the first two hours of The Empire Strikes Back, with the ending of The Godfather. It does not even seem like the same story. Just bad storytelling by Metzler and DC.

[muimi]

Liked it; kind of disappointed in the ending but a lot of the happenings will make for interesting fall out later on.

[yeoman]

Oh, and Im sorry for not being able to put this more diplomatically, but people who are contemplating quitting comics over this? Dumb. Im sorry, but there have been much worse comics published THIS YEAR, let alone ever. Sure, everyone is entitled to overreact, but thats just the most overboard I have ever seen. Thats like me saying I would never buy another Marvel comic because of Avengers Disassembled(which was the worst story of the year by a rather large margin), just crazy.

As the only person who made such a statement you could at least try to aim your insulting statement at me rather than try to cover it up with a blanket statement.

I have *never* NEVER seen *anything* in *any* medium that made me shake with rage.

Identity Crisis did. And this was meant to be Meltzer's love letter to the DCU. It was meant to be DC's Showcase it will effect the DCU for years to come. And it will, because the people writing half the freaking DCU are Meltzers friends.

This book insulted me on an intellectual level, insulted me by started plot threads it never intended to finish, insulted me on the level of what DC will allow to be put in their books without a mature readers label, insulted me by defiling the silver age of comics* and insulted me with the writers sheer ****ing ego.


*And I wasn't even reading comics in the silver age. That's how insulting this was.


That's it. Yeo is out. No more. I will retire me views on Identitiy Crisis to boards where people can see this for the industry ruining filth that it is.

[Brian R]

Wow, and you call me deluded? :rolleyes:

[The Shadow]

I would be in the liked it... but not loved it group.

I thought it was alright and it had some neat ideas... but the art wasn't great (again, not bad... but not great) and the implausibility of it all... the fact it took the worlds greatest detective THAT long to figure it out... I did find the murderer to be a surprise and did enjoy the scenes with Robin's dad.

Not bad... but not great

[Melissa]

Hated it. Absolutely hated every minute of it. It's a tough call which was worse, Avengers Disassembled, or Identity Crisis.

Both had nice art. Both had very poor characterisation. Both had huge holes in the plots, and both had otherwise stable women becoming capital-E evil because they suddenly went nuts. Nope, IC was worse because it had more holes. AD essentially only had one (admittedly it's the whole story) where IC had so many.... what was the flamethrower doing there? why go to all that trouble when a phone call would have worked... and the rape?

Distasteful, and not even defensible on the merits of the story, sorry.

[yeoman]

Wow, and you call me deluded? :rolleyes:

Really? Considering that this *is* the future of storytelling for the DCU in the foreseeable future?

Considering how much the pro-IC fans are jumping up and down for this and how much money it made you don't think Marvel is going to jump on the bandwagon?

DKR and Watchmen were actually good and they had a hand in helping to destroy the industry fifteen years ago.

[ratzo]

I think the only story element of any real value in IDC, now that it's all over, is seeing the villains get smarter. As a villain, you can serve as a punching bag for the likes of the JLA and JSA and Titans and whoever for only so long before you reach a stage where you have to change your approach somehow or get out of the game. And I hope this, at least, gets reflected in future DCU stories.

[thetechnocrat]

For the record, I didn't choose any poll category since the ending was bad and Sue was a character I liked. The mystery aspect is what kept me interested. This story coupled with the treatment of women in other titles makes me think the "misogynistic conspiracy" posts floating around are not too out there.

Who knows, maybe they will wipe all this out after the upcoming Crisis.

[thetechnocrat]

I think the only story element of any real value in IDC, now that it's all over, is seeing the villains get smarter. As a villain, you can serve as a punching bag for the likes of the JLA and JSA and Titans and whoever for only so long before you reach a stage where you have to change your approach somehow or get out of the game. And I hope this, at least, gets reflected in future DCU stories.

I did like Calculator being reintroduced as an evil Oracle. That was one good aspect of the tale. Also, the use of the villain satellite.

[Brian R]

Really? Considering that this *is* the future of storytelling for the DCU in the foreseeable future?

Considering how much the pro-IC fans are jumping up and down for this and how much money it made you don't think Marvel is going to jump on the bandwagon?

DKR and Watchmen were actually good and they had a hand in helping to destroy the industry fifteen years ago.

No, whats funny is that you actually believe that every other comic will follow IC in both style and execution. Of course DC is gonna hype it as having huge ramifications and such, but that doesnt mean squat in the real world. I dont expect DC to suddenly get all crazy, at least no more so than before IC anyway.

Will there be follow-up? Of course! Doc Light is now a badass again, and will be taking on the Titans in an upcoming issue. Some of the league members have added drama between them, including some huge secrets being held by Wally. But really, what do you think is going to come from all this? Do you think psychotic ex-wives and violent rape is going to become the norm? I sure as hell dont.

Oh, and complaining about things like the lack of a Parental Warning on the cover? Thin, very thin. Again, people have every right to HATE the book, that was not my point, but to say it was the worst thing of the year, and to consider quitting comics because of it-ridiculous! I have seen TONS of crappy films in my life, but for some reason I didnt stop watching movies. Same thing goes for just about every creative medium; music, novels, television, you gotta take the good with the bad and realize that your travesty is someone else's best thing evar.

[Fenix]

I vote yay, because of the suspense... but as a whole is more like something in between... I don´t dig the ending, though...

[yeoman]

No, whats funny is that you actually believe that every other comic will follow IC in both style and execution.


Could you strawman any more? I didn't say that, I never said that. I said it will effect the industry and a good deal of stories that are told by the big two for quite some time.

Of course DC is gonna hype it as having huge ramifications and such, but that doesnt mean squat in the real world.

Ordinarily. Except Meltzer's firends are writing most of their books and DC seems to treat them as their golden boys who can do no wrong.



Will there be follow-up? Of course! Doc Light is now a badass again, and will be taking on the Titans in an upcoming issue.

Would have been nice if that were even ****ing delt with in IC.

Oh, and complaining about things like the lack of a Parental Warning on the cover? Thin, very thin.

Because people have no right to know if the book they are buying contails relatively graphic portrayals of rape. [/sarcasm}

[Brian R]

I notice that the cries of "STRAWMAN!" are usually coming from people who have no other response. YOU are the one overreacting here, as if the apocalypse is upon us, not me.

However, I REALLY cant stand arguing with people about things which are a matter of opinion anyway. Are you going to convince me this was the worst story ever told? Not a chance. Am I going to convince you that it was actually pretty good? Nope.

[Smarty Jones]

If "Identity Crisis" was a "love letter" to DC and the Silver Age -- and Brad Meltzer has said he liked the Dibnys -- I shudder to think what he would have done to characters he detested.

[EZMOHR]

If "Identity Crisis" was a "love letter" to DC and the Silver Age -- and Brad Meltzer has said he liked the Dibnys -- I shudder to think what he would have done to characters he detested.


I think he did tinker with characters he hated....he called it Identity Crisis #7.


And what is with that creepy Elongated Man ending?

[Knightoftomorrow]

This story got me reading DC comics. I had picked up some stuff earlier, but this set up some interesting stuff and made me care about the characters a bit more than I did before. I enjoyed it all, even the ending.

[NickVinson]

Would the two gentlemen that are fighting in here kindly take it ELSEWHERE!!!

[HartyPotter]

If there wasn't so much hype about the mini, I would be perfectly satisfied with the story. I thought it was very well done in general, and a good deal better than 90+% of DC's other stories. Still, the ending made the book feel so... trivial. Jack Drake died because Jean randomly chose him for no reason other than because she was insane and missed Ray? I wanted this to have SOMETHING to do with Dr. Light and mindwiping. Oh well. That being said, it's well worth another read. Just not quite worth the hype.

[yeoman]

I notice that the cries of "STRAWMAN!" are usually coming from people who have no other response. YOU are the one overreacting here, as if the apocalypse is upon us, not me.


Except, you know, you blew what I actually said out of proportion to the point of actually making crap up, to make your own argument look good. Now last I looked, that actually was strawmanning.

[Brian R]

Except, you know, you blew what I actually said out of proportion to the point of actually making crap up, to make your own argument look good. Now last I looked, that actually was strawmanning.

Like I said, no response, and the fact that you keep harping on it doesnt change that.

How about actually posting something worthwile, or quitting the insults?

[NickVinson]

Okay. you are both being unnecessarily idiotic. Please quit it.

[Brian R]

Okay. you are both being unnecessarily idiotic. Please quit it.

Its not your place, or your right, to insult either of us, so back off bub.

I tried to be civil, but I will not be insulted by people without responding. If he keeps it up then so shall I, thats it, period. I have already stated there was no point to us arguing, but if he wishes to continue thats his perogative.

[Forsaken_One]

You're both insulting one another and ignoring the topic. At this point it most certainly is his and all of our place to tell you to take it to private messaging or email.

[Brian R]

But its not your right to insult us in any way, now is it? Nope, thats what I thought.

[yeoman]

Its not your place, or your right, to insult either of us, so back off bub.

I tried to be civil, but I will not be insulted by people without responding. If he keeps it up then so shall I, thats it, period. I have already stated there was no point to us arguing, but if he wishes to continue thats his perogative.

Civil? You flat out insulted me.

[NickVinson]

Its not your place, or your right, to insult either of us, so back off bub.

I tried to be civil, but I will not be insulted by people without responding. If he keeps it up then so shall I, thats it, period. I have already stated there was no point to us arguing, but if he wishes to continue thats his perogative.


You are both acting like Children. On the internet.

ON THE INTERNET!

what do you actually think this is going to accomplish? At this point all you two are doing is whipping out your penises and laying them on the table shouting "LOOK! LOOK HOW BIG AND IMPRESSIVE MY WANGaFICATION IS! LOOK I SAY!"

Do you have any idea how retarded you guys sound?

[yeoman]

Like I said, no response, and the fact that you keep harping on it doesnt change that.

Uh, I've mentioned once. And clairified once. Your position is that despite the fact that you were strawmanning anyone that calls you on it has no response. Despite the fact that I've spent a truckload of time on this board arguing about the details of IC, and providing ways I felt it could have been much better.

You, meanwhile, decided to insult me over how bad I thought the series was.


How about actually posting something worthwile, or quitting the insults?

Hey, if you want to apologize for throwing out the first insult, we might be able to work with that. Until then...

[Brian R]

Uh, I've mentioned once. And clairified once. Your position is that despite the fact that you were strawmanning anyone that calls you on it has no response. Despite the fact that I've spent a truckload of time on this board arguing about the details of IC, and providing ways I felt it could have been much better.

You, meanwhile, decided to insult me over how bad I thought the series was.




Hey, if you want to apologize for throwing out the first insult, we might be able to work with that. Until then...

@Nick, really, back off. Your name-calling has no place here. Nobody was talking to you, and pulling that "look I am going to show how much better than everyone else I am by calling them on their childishness" bit just doesnt cut it either.

@Yeoman
Lets see now, you really want me to expose you? You stated that IC had you *thinking* about quitting comics. How did I exaggerate your exaggeration exactly? Please let me know how down-to-earth your reply actually was, and how I blew it totally out of proportion? You are all hurt because you think that YOU were the only target of my initial post, which is incorrect. Just because you were the last person to post such feelings on THIS thread, on THIS site, doesnt make you the magical target of all my insults. People all over the place are acting like its WW3 because of IC, not just you. In fact, I have an entire thread dedicated to people overreacting about stuff on this board, and it was started before IC 7 came out.

Me, apologize? You must be mistaking me with someone else. I dont apologies unless I have done something that warrants it, and this is not one of those cases. Perhaps you are used to dealing with people who will do anything to avoid confrontation, but I sir, am not one of those people.

[NickVinson]

firstly.. saying you are acting like children is not name calling. If i were to say... call you a fuckwad (which i am NOT doing here.) that would name be calling.

what I take dispute with is the fact that you guys feel the need to press this greivance further. Why dont you just step away from the computer and cool your jets. both of you. this is just silly.

[Brian R]

You are both acting like Children. On the internet.

ON THE INTERNET!

what do you actually think this is going to accomplish? At this point all you two are doing is whipping out your penises and laying them on the table shouting "LOOK! LOOK HOW BIG AND IMPRESSIVE MY WANGaFICATION IS! LOOK I SAY!"

Do you have any idea how retarded you guys sound?

Thats not an insult? Im sorry then, because we must have different ideas about what the word "insult" means.

[NickVinson]

Thats not an insult? Im sorry then, because we must have different ideas about what the word "insult" means.

oh. no thats certainly an insult. but its not name calling.

[Brian R]

Well then, we are in total agreement. ;)

[NickVinson]

Well then, we are in total agreement. ;)

does anyone else find it fucked up that we aer just sitting here... waiting by our keyboards. waiting to one up each other in reply? This makes me feel stupid.

Im sorry. Im walking away. If you wish to continue with Yeoman... go ahead. Im gonna go sleep.

Apology accepted?

[Brian R]

does anyone else find it fucked up that we aer just sitting here... waiting by our keyboards. waiting to one up each other in reply? This makes me feel stupid.

Im sorry. Im walking away. If you wish to continue with Yeoman... go ahead. Im gonna go sleep.

Apology accepted?

Yep, I am just waiting to reply to stuff, thats generally what I do at this time of night, not much else to do before bed.

And Nick, while I am not apologizing, dont worry about it. People seem to have this misconception that if you get into it with someone it makes you enemies and you have to hate eachother for EVER! YEAH! But really, Im not even mad at anyone, and I certainly wouldnt hate a person just for saying what they want, nevermind on the internet.

I get into it with plenty of people, but then I might agree with them somewhere else or praise them for an intelligent post, its good to have a short memory, so to speak.

[NickVinson]

Yep, I am just waiting to reply to stuff, thats generally what I do at this time of night, not much else to do before bed.

And Nick, while I am not apologizing, dont worry about it. People seem to have this misconception that if you get into it with someone it makes you enemies and you have to hate eachother for EVER! YEAH! But really, Im not even mad at anyone, and I certainly wouldnt hate a person just for saying what they want, nevermind on the internet.

I get into it with plenty of people, but then I might agree with them somewhere else or praise them for an intelligent post, its good to have a short memory, so to speak.

Im sorry. I over reacted. and you dont have to apologize as i offended. so its cool.

we do agree that Identity Crisis kicked ass yes?

[Brian R]

Im sorry. I over reacted. and you dont have to apologize as i offended. so its cool.

we do agree that Identity Crisis kicked ass yes?

Well, as I have stated, I have mixed feelings. I definetly liked it overall, but I do think that there were some dangling plot points, as well as the violence against Sue being a little over-the-top. Its not that I mind that kind of violence, but only if it serves the story, and in this case I think a straight-up beating would have been plenty, no need to rape the women. Also, I did feel that the final issue wasnt up to the level of the previous six, it just wasnt as strong.

So, I liked it, but I dont know if I would say it kicked ass. I am probably more pumped about what will happen with Doc Light and between Bats and Flash though. Leaving dangling plot threads isnt a good thing per se, but it might lead to good things in the regular books, which would be fine with me.

[NickVinson]

Well, as I have stated, I have mixed feelings. I definetly liked it overall, but I do think that there were some dangling plot points, as well as the violence against Sue being a little over-the-top. Its not that I mind that kind of violence, but only if it serves the story, and in this case I think a straight-up beating would have been plenty, no need to rape the women. Also, I did feel that the final issue wasnt up to the level of the previous six, it just wasnt as strong.

So, I liked it, but I dont know if I would say it kicked ass. I am probably more pumped about what will happen with Doc Light and between Bats and Flash though. Leaving dangling plot threads isnt a good thing per se, but it might lead to good things in the regular books, which would be fine with me.


I take this as a yes. :D

all in all... i think i liked the quieter moments of the series. And when a writer subverts my expectations... and its well written i can give them a pass for not giving me a last issue full of fights and bang bang.

[Brian R]

I take this as a yes. :D

all in all... i think i liked the quieter moments of the series. And when a writer subverts my expectations... and its well written i can give them a pass for not giving me a last issue full of fights and bang bang.

Well, yeah, I liked it. Thats what I said!

I am definetly glad that I picked up this mini, a lot of cool moments overall. And yes, I can forgive the last issue, because you have to read a mini as one story, not six parts of a story, and judge it as such.

[yeoman]

@Yeoman
Lets see now, you really want me to expose you? You stated that IC had you *thinking* about quitting comics. How did I exaggerate your exaggeration exactly? Please let me know how down-to-earth your reply actually was, and how I blew it totally out of proportion?

You flat out siad my belief was that every comic would be like IC, when I said it would merely have great repercussions on the industry.

You are all hurt because you think that YOU were the only target of my initial post, which is incorrect. Just because you were the last person to post such feelings on THIS thread, on THIS site, doesnt make you the magical target of all my insults. People all over the place are acting like its WW3 because of IC, not just you. In fact, I have an entire thread dedicated to people overreacting about stuff on this board, and it was started before IC 7 came out.

Then you insulted a whole segment of people and used my post as the catalyst to call many people "crazy" and "dumb." My bad. :rolleyes:

Me, apologize? You must be mistaking me with someone else. I dont apologies unless I have done something that warrants it, and this is not one of those cases. Perhaps you are used to dealing with people who will do anything to avoid confrontation, but I sir, am not one of those people.

I'm used to dealing with Rumblers. We don't back down, we don't take crap and when someone insults us we certainly don't take it lightly.


Edit: Specifically

The insulting post:

Oh, and Im sorry for not being able to put this more diplomatically, but people who are contemplating quitting comics over this? Dumb. Im sorry, but there have been much worse comics published THIS YEAR, let alone ever. Sure, everyone is entitled to overreact, but thats just the most overboard I have ever seen. Thats like me saying I would never buy another Marvel comic because of Avengers Disassembled(which was the worst story of the year by a rather large margin), just crazy.

The lying, strawmanning post:
No, whats funny is that you actually believe that every other comic will follow IC in both style and execution. Of course DC is gonna hype it as having huge ramifications and such, but that doesnt mean squat in the real world. I dont expect DC to suddenly get all crazy, at least no more so than before IC anyway.

[BoosterBronze]

I dug the story a lot. Hours of reading enjoyment. Slightly anticlimactic. But I'd buy IC sequel in a heartbeat.

[phicks]

I voted for the Thumbs Up option, but it started far stronger than it ended. There wasn't much terribly interesting after the fight with Deathstroke.

[Arvandor]

I enjoyed it a lot. That's all that counts.

[Brian R]

You flat out siad my belief was that every comic would be like IC, when I said it would merely have great repercussions on the industry.



Then you insulted a whole segment of people and used my post as the catalyst to call many people "crazy" and "dumb." My bad. :rolleyes:



I'm used to dealing with Rumblers. We don't back down, we don't take crap and when someone insults us we certainly don't take it lightly.


Edit: Specifically

The insulting post:



The lying, strawmanning post:
Once again, you are upset because I slightly exaggerated your gross exaggeration. Call it whatever you will, but you keep harping on it because you really have no defense for your position in the first place.

Know what else? I couldnt care less if you felt insulted, when your posts consist of stuff like this:I don't think I've ever even *thought* about quitting buying comics. If I have it was never seriously.

Until Identity Crisis.

and this:I have read the issue. At this was the only comic/movie/show/book/video game/whatever I have *ever* gone through that had me shacking in rage. And I was buying comics in the mid ninties.

Not to mention all the IC bashing you did in the rumbles forum. How do you expect people to react? Should we respect you and think highly of you for reacting like that? I stand by my original statement.

And let me point out, once again, that YOU are the one not letting this drop. I was perfectly willing to do so, but you seem to want to prolong this, so whatever. Go ahead, keep yelling STRAWMAN from the rooftops, people can just go back and read what you wrote all over the place and judge for themselves.

[yeoman]

Once again, you are upset because I slightly exaggerated your gross exaggeration. Call it whatever you will, but you keep harping on it because you really have no defense for your position in the first place.


You know, other than that IC sucked more ass than I thought was possible to suck, and my posts being baed on my actual feelings.

Little things like that.

Know what else? I couldnt care less if you felt insulted, when your posts consist of stuff like this:

and this:

So, you don't care what I think because I disagree with you on IC being good, and instead, thought it was one of the single worst comics I've ever read, to the degree that it actually angered me and shook my faith in the industry? Wow, you're a real paragon of humanity.

Not to mention all the IC bashing you did in the rumbles forum. How do you expect people to react? Should we respect you and think highly of you for reacting like that? I stand by my original statement.

I think I should be allowed to have my own actual opinions. You, appearently, think otherwise.

And let me point out, once again, that YOU are the one not letting this drop. I was perfectly willing to do so, but you seem to want to prolong this, so whatever.

And yet, you keep replying. I least I'm honest with the fact that when insulted I fight back tenaciously.

[tricksterpup]

I vote yay, because of the suspense... but as a whole is more like something in between... I don´t dig the ending, though...

I have to disagree, the ending was fantastic. It was very touching and very real on how Ralph is dealing with Sue's death. This comic, I will say was a nice touch. The murderer was not the typical superpowered Villain. Her motives where not that of Destroying the Justice League. Just a lonely woman who wanted to get her husband back. It was very sad indeed. This comic was a nice change of pace. I will admit that the "entire Rape of Sue" as in poor taste, in my opinion. But everything else was nicely done. It was a very Mature book and nice look into human nature.

The one Item that did appear from all of this I am looking forward to seeing appear in the future is Wally's reaction of Batman being mind wiped. Will Batman ever let on that he knows? or Does he know and what will his reaction be when he finds out?

[Brian R]

You know, other than that IC sucked more ass than I thought was possible to suck, and my posts being baed on my actual feelings.

Little things like that.



So, you don't care what I think because I disagree with you on IC being good, and instead, thought it was one of the single worst comics I've ever read, to the degree that it actually angered me and shook my faith in the industry? Wow, you're a real paragon of humanity.



I think I should be allowed to have my own actual opinions. You, appearently, think otherwise.



And yet, you keep replying. I least I'm honest with the fact that when insulted I fight back tenaciously.


Again, I stand by my original statement. You have every right to react like a child and make yourself look foolish in the process, that is definetly your right to do so, you just cant expect people to take you seriously afterwards.

Remember kids, saying stuff like "this comic is so bad it actually had me thinking about quitting comics" doesnt come off as intelligent critism.

[yeoman]

Again, I stand by my original statement. You have every right to react like a child and make yourself look foolish in the process, that is definetly your right to do so, you just cant expect people to take you seriously afterwards.

Remember kids, saying stuff like "this comic is so bad it actually had me thinking about quitting comics" doesnt come off as intelligent critism.

I've made my critisms. This was merely the end result of six months of this comic pissing me off.

It does, however, amuse me when the guy who started throwing insults accuses others of being childish.

[Ned Leeds]

I give it an "eh". The ending of this series was very anti-climatic. But, if DC is truly using IDC to set up future stories..... I can't wait to get my hands on some comics in 2005. Lotta juicy stuff was left unresolved. :D

[ForEverAncien]

I have to disagree, the ending was fantastic. It was very touching and very real on how Ralph is dealing with Sue's death. This comic, I will say was a nice touch. The murderer was not the typical superpowered Villain. Her motives where not that of Destroying the Justice League. Just a lonely woman who wanted to get her husband back. It was very sad indeed. This comic was a nice change of pace. I will admit that the "entire Rape of Sue" as in poor taste, in my opinion. But everything else was nicely done. It was a very Mature book and nice look into human nature.

The one Item that did appear from all of this I am looking forward to seeing appear in the future is Wally's reaction of Batman being mind wiped. Will Batman ever let on that he knows? or Does he know and what will his reaction be when he finds out?

When that happens...I expect, a massive fallout, Bruce has done things against the League in the past, especially when his backup plans were used by Rhal Ghul, back then.

But this, this...oh mercy...this...should be a dozy, and already, Batman suspects something, he watched Wally very keenly, and he knows, that something is on Wally's mind...something heavy.

The only thing is, will any writer who touches the Bat titles, will follow through.

Time will tell.

*Anti-climatic music chimes in*

[Michael P]

It's weird, I was all up and down with this book. One issue, I'd think, "Okay, that was all right," and then the next I'd be, "Bu-huh? What was the point of that?"

Ultimately, though, the ending flopped so spectacularly that I have to give the series a resounding "Nay." I'll be eBaying the issues after New Year's.

[Ontir]

I bought an issue or two, then realized I just didn't care. Now that it's over, I would like to know who did it. I heard something about the Top, but I don't know much beyond that. What's with all the mind-wiping?

[Archyduke]

I've yet to read issue #7, so I'll give it a "yea". I also haven't happened to read the infamous rape issue, so I can't really comment on that either. What I got out of it was a decent mystery with some entertaining characterization; however, I can see why many people, in particular more dedicated DC-buffs, would dislike it.

[Ontir]

Sue Dibny is an espeecailly loved character by many of us. To kill her off, is bad enough. To have her raped and murdered the night she intends to tell her husband she's pregnant is just unacceptable to a good number of us. That event soured me on the whole series. Once it was done, I just didn't really care too much about the rest of the story. I'd like to know who's responsible, but the story itself just doesn't interest me. If I were to become a writer for DC, I would, as soon as possible, find a way to bring her back, even if Ralph turned around to watch her step out of the shower, asking why he was looking at her like that. Ray and Jean split up. Barry and Iris split up, then kind of got back together before he died. Lois and Clark have only recently in comic time) gotten together. Ralph and Sue were the old married couple of the DCU, and that shouldn't have been taken for granted, or thrown away. Meltzer, and whoever greenlit this should be flogged!

[bfrank]

get out much?

[GremlinClr]

This book insulted me on an intellectual level, insulted me by started plot threads it never intended to finish, insulted me on the level of what DC will allow to be put in their books without a mature readers label, insulted me by defiling the silver age of comics* and insulted me with the writers sheer ****ing ego.



See, I don't get this. Almost every superhero comic you read, some ones getting the snot beat out of them, or tortured or downright murdered. Yet I never see any outcry. That tells me "Deplorable violance=OK." But rape? Whoa there buddy. You've gone too far. I'm sorry, but I can't see rape being worse than murder.

As for my vote. IC #1-6, YAY! #7, WTF!?!

Worst. Ending. Ever. :mad:

[NickVinson]

I have to disagree, the ending was fantastic. It was very touching and very real on how Ralph is dealing with Sue's death. This comic, I will say was a nice touch. The murderer was not the typical superpowered Villain. Her motives where not that of Destroying the Justice League. Just a lonely woman who wanted to get her husband back. It was very sad indeed. This comic was a nice change of pace. I will admit that the "entire Rape of Sue" as in poor taste, in my opinion. But everything else was nicely done. It was a very Mature book and nice look into human nature.

The one Item that did appear from all of this I am looking forward to seeing appear in the future is Wally's reaction of Batman being mind wiped. Will Batman ever let on that he knows? or Does he know and what will his reaction be when he finds out?

When that happens...I expect, a massive fallout, Bruce has done things against the League in the past, especially when his backup plans were used by Rhal Ghul, back then.

But this, this...oh mercy...this...should be a dozy, and already, Batman suspects something, he watched Wally very keenly, and he knows, that something is on Wally's mind...something heavy.

The only thing is, will any writer who touches the Bat titles, will follow through.

Time will tell.

*Anti-climatic music chimes in*

From DC's website:

Written by Geoff Johns; Art and cover by Howard Porter and Livesay

The events of IDENTITY CRISIS affect the Flash's world as a gathering of unlikely individuals pay their last respects to the fallen and Wally West makes a monumental decision about his personal life. Plus, the upcoming "Rogues War" begins to take shape. And just what is Batman's problem with Wally?

DC Universe | 32pg. | Color | $2.25 US

On Sale December 29, 2004

[yeoman]

See, I don't get this. Almost every superhero comic you read, some ones getting the snot beat out of them, or tortured or downright murdered. Yet I never see any outcry. That tells me "Deplorable violance=OK." But rape? Whoa there buddy. You've gone too far. I'm sorry, but I can't see rape being worse than murder.

As for my vote. IC #1-6, YAY! #7, WTF!?!

Worst. Ending. Ever. :mad:

I think books with, say, Authority levels of graphic violence *should* have mature readers labels.

[Sk8maven]

Read issue #1, thought it was mean and nasty. Read issue #2,thought it was meaner and nastier and going places I didn't want to follow. Skimmed issue #3...decided I was only going to follow this one through spoiler threads.

I not only know when to walk away, I know when to run like he!!.

Maven

[tricksterpup]

It's weird, I was all up and down with this book. One issue, I'd think, "Okay, that was all right," and then the next I'd be, "Bu-huh? What was the point of that?"

Ultimately, though, the ending flopped so spectacularly that I have to give the series a resounding "Nay." I'll be eBaying the issues after New Year's.
But what was pointless? Why did you not like it? What was it missing? I am very curious to hear your opinion on this.

[Michael P]

I could go into extreme detail, but it all comes down to this whole murder mystery just not working. I mean, the final reveal comes not from the heroes sniffing out the truth and confronting the criminal, or even the old Perry Mason technique of grilling someone else until the killer, who happens to be in the room, stands up and announces it loudly, but a silly, Encyclopedia Brown-ish slip of the tongue. And this is the only form of payoff we get from the story at all. The other various elements brought up (the Calculator's operation, the mindwiping, Luthor's supersuit) play no part at all in the denouement, and are left hanging. These, and the lack of a clear protagonist, are hallmarks of a bad detective story.

And beyond all that, it's just depressing. Atom's in subatomica, Jean's in Arkham (even though, in my estimation, she doesn't meet the legal definition of insanity and should stand trial for at least manslaughter), Ralph's cracked, Tim's an orphan, Firehawk's quitting, and Bruce hates Wally. There's not a single thing here worth feeling good about this. I could excuse this if the craft were at a better level, but, as I pointed out, it's not.

About the only thing it has going for it is Morales' art.

[the Monitor]

Sue Dibny is an espeecailly loved character by many of us. To kill her off, is bad enough. To have her raped and murdered the night she intends to tell her husband she's pregnant is just unacceptable to a good number of us. That event soured me on the whole series. Once it was done, I just didn't really care too much about the rest of the story.


She was murdered the night she planned to tell her husband she was pregnant. She was raped years before. The Power Pact group went after Dr. Light for the murder because they thought it was related to the rape/mindwipe from years before.

[Arvandor]

What I didn't like about IC:

The dangling plot threads. Most of these should have been at least partially tied up by the end. Leaving one or two would have been okay. But there are far too many questions and scenarios left unresolved by this story. Yes, they probably will be continued in other titles. But that's just cynical marketing, and is cruel to the reader.
Meaningless scenes. Firestorm's death was completely irrelevant. One or two other scenes are equally meaningless. Not as many as other people claim, but a few.
Inconsistent art. Rags should have paid more attention to his work. He KNEW people would be scrutinizing every detail.

What I DID like about IC:

The Characterization. Everyone that appeared in IC, no matter how brief their scene, was fully developed and were presented as human beings. The heroes had flaws and worries, and the bad guys had realistic motives and plans. Characters appeared who some of us had never even heard of before, and yet this story made us care about them. And the best characterization of all was Batman, who is presented as more human than he has been in YEARS, even though he doesn't appear all that often. That alone deserves credit.
The tension. Say what you like, but the tension was palpable throughout the entire series, and thick enough to chew. You could even feel the tension online, with people arguing over the possibilities like I have never seen before, and desperately waiting for the next issue.

Overall, I liked it a lot. I enjoyed reading it. I just wish the ending would have answered more questions than it did.

One problem a lot of people seem to have with this series is that they consider half the story to be irrelevant to the plot.
As a murder mystery, they may be right. But IC is more than that.
Identity Crisis is an exploration into the nature and consequences of the Secret Identity, and in that respect, I think it works very well. The JLA mindwipe plot was all about how far the JLA will go to protect their identities, even if it means betraying each other.
Which ties it together with the murder, and Jean Loring. Keeping your secrets from your enemies is one thing, but keeping them from your loved ones is something else. After Jean's betrayal, the JLA are going to have to be extra careful who they trust from now on.
Take Superman, for example. Clark tells his wife EVERYTHING. But after this, the rest of the JLA are going to want him to start being careful about what he tells Lois. But Lois will know that he's keeping things from her, and this could put a TREMENDOUS strain on their marriage.

Finally, I don't think it was Sue Dibny who DC wanted to kill off. Nor was it Jack Drake.
I think it was Atom.
True, Atom isn't dead, but his career is. Atom is gone, and I don't think we will be seeing him again for a VERY long time.

[TCJohnson]

I think it was Jack Drake who DC wanted to kill off. That has the most effect on a character with his own title. They could have left Atom in limbo.

[Matt Algren]

See, I don't get this. Almost every superhero comic you read, some ones getting the snot beat out of them, or tortured or downright murdered. Yet I never see any outcry. That tells me "Deplorable violance=OK." But rape? Whoa there buddy. You've gone too far. I'm sorry, but I can't see rape being worse than murder.
To me, it's the difference between realistic violence and fantasy violence. Showing a character being raped is miles away from showing the Fatal 500 fighting the Legion. The line's being blurred to the point where a lot of folks (me included) aren't so sure about showing comics to kids anymore.

Look at it this way. Last week on JL Unlimited, we were shown a large group of heroes fighting a battle with robots. There was violence, but it was clearly not of the "could happen in the real world" sort. On the other hand, there were also shows on network television after 9pm that dealt with real murder, rape, etc. Network executives and censors wouldn't allow the 2nd group to intermingle with the first because it's clearly inappropriate.

That's what comic book editors used to do.

[bfrank]

To me, it's the difference between realistic violence and fantasy violence. Showing a character being raped is miles away from showing the Fatal 500 fighting the Legion. The line's being blurred to the point where a lot of folks (me included) aren't so sure about showing comics to kids anymore.

Look at it this way. Last week on JL Unlimited, we were shown a large group of heroes fighting a battle with robots. There was violence, but it was clearly not of the "could happen in the real world" sort. On the other hand, there were also shows on network television after 9pm that dealt with real murder, rape, etc. Network executives and censors wouldn't allow the 2nd group to intermingle with the first because it's clearly inappropriate.

That's what comic book editors used to do.


but murder is alright :confused:

[Matt Algren]

but murder is alright :confused:
No.

First, it's kinda hard to have a murder mystery without a murder.

Second, depending on which issue you read, Sue was either killed with a flamethrower or by someone shrinking down to the size of a gnat and going in her ear.

In other words, fantasy violence.

[Sk8maven]

I've yet to read issue #7, so I'll give it a "yea".

Let us know if your vote changes once you HAVE read issue #7.

Maven

[Viking Bastard]

Definately a 'Yay'.

It wasn't perfect, but I liked it.

But yeah, a bit too many dangling plot threads. And how did Jean Loring know
all those secret IDs? Bruce and Clark, allright, but Tim? I can believe she would
be able to discover it on her own, since she knew Bruce's, but would she then
talk so openly of Robin as 'Tim'? It just seemed strange to me.

[CjP]

Was that enough spoiler warning? Okay...

* So Jean Loring killed Sue (accidentally) and faked her own attack to draw Ray back into her arms. I can buy that. But what about the whole Boomerang/ Jack Drake thing? What's her motive/benefit from doing that?

* I understand that the Luthor powersuit will be followed up on in a Teen Titans issue. Is a similar follow-up planned for Dr. Light? I can't believe, especially after we last see him with the evil glint in his eye, that this is the end of his involvement.

* Batman was mindwiped. Got that. Does he know he was? Ollie seems to suggest that he does, but I can't imagine Batman letting something like that go, especially considering discussion with Superman regarding the 'Emperor Joker' events.

All in all, a good story, but I'm left with questions that I think should have been addressed in what I believe to be is a self-contained story (albeit one that takes place in current continuity). Thanks for your time!

[Kevinroc]

1) Jean hired Boomerang to attack Jack so the heroes would think that Boomerang was the one who killed Sue and attacked her. She placed the gun thinking Jack would have killed Boomerang and lived. That didn't go as planned. But this raises the question of why Jean knew Robin's true ID...

2) Yes, Dr. Light will challenge the Teen Titans in the story following the Luthor armor.

3) We don't know what Batman knows about what happened.

[Archyduke]

At the end of issue #7, someone in the villain's lair/hang-out is ranting in the background in silhouette, saying something about "the red/green". The goatee on the figure seems to hint that it's Dr. Light saying these things; if so, how did he go from smirking sinisterly to this? Did he get beaten up by Mr. Miracle or something? :confused:

[pureclint]

Thats the shadow theif...

who is kind of nuts.

[Forsaken_One]

I just wonder how Robin's secret identity went from no one, including Oracle, knowing it back on 2001 to the ex-wife of a B-list hero who isn't even near the bat-family knowing it. Did they just want to kill off a hero's guardian and couldn't think of anyone else? Killing off Wonder Girl's mother would have made more sense, she doesn't even have a secret identity.

[IamtheRock3]

yes but the fact they have no real connection is why Sue Picked her


because really Tim and his Dad had ZERO to do with this which is what would lead him away from Sue.

[Forsaken_One]

yes but the fact they have no real connection is why Sue Picked her

because really Tim and his Dad had ZERO to do with this which is what would lead him away from Sue.
No, no. I'm not questioning why Jean (I assume that's who you mean since Sue was kinda killed) would have targeted Jack Drake. I'm questioning A) how she knew to target Jack Drake; how would she know that Tim Drake is Robin? And B) what DC as a company and what the writers thought they would accomplish by killing off Jack Drake and repeating in various comics that Tim's now an orphan (which he isn't but that's not the issue).

[Zero Hunter]

I can't wait to see Dr. Light go up against the Titans again. I think they are going to be in for a real shock by how evil he is now. That and it is during that arc that we get to see Hawk and Dove return, but will it be Dove and a new Hawk or a totaly new Hawk and Dove?

Can't wait!

[Titanium]

What I'm wondering is will Batman just let Jean stay in Arkham, where most of his rogue's are residing or eventually reside, while Jean pretty much knows the entire super hero community's secret identities for some unexplained reason.

You'd think Batman would keep his secret a secret.


He also probably knows he's been mindwhiped. But he's probably done it a lot of times to the same people who had it done to him.


Here's another loose end, sorta.

Is Elongated Man crazy now or is he talking to his dead wife and able to hear her?

The way I read it, I got the notion he just snapped, but I also felt like maybe he knew there was an afterlife, GA can account for that, and knew she could hear him. But how can he hear her?

There's also what Flash is going to do with the knowledge of Batman's mindwhipe eating at him.

[Deathstroke]

Here's another loose end, sorta.

Is Elongated Man crazy now or is he talking to his dead wife and able to hear her?

The way I read it, I got the notion he just snapped, but I also felt like maybe he knew there was an afterlife, GA can account for that, and knew she could hear him. But how can he hear her?



I am not sure that Ralph has snapped. I think he's talking to her and then the "ghost" of Sue said I love you too, but it's not something Ralph heard.

[DrHelix]

Here's another loose end which I hope gets tied up sooner than later. What's the deal with Boomerang's son? We've gotten the fact that a) he has superspeed, b) Digger is in some manner his father, and c) Golden Glider is not his mother. I really missed there not being some type of resolution to that thread in the last issue. I've seen something in future solicitations about there being some kind of Rogue War in Flash soon. Maybe that will clear up this issue a bit.

[marshal99]

Parallels between this Identity crap and Avengers dissembled crap ....

Pointless deaths :- Sue Dibny , Antman
Needless deaths :- Firestorm/Jack Drake , Hawkeye/Agatha Harkness
One of their own who became insane :- Jean Loring , Scarlet Witch

[Forsaken_One]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that Identity Crisis was crafted to get people to read other comics. The new Captain Boomerang and some mind-wiping stuff is going to take place in Flash, Jack Drake fallout will (hopefully) happen in Robin, the mind-wipe of Batman will take place in JLA (I'd like to think it takes place in Batman but I doubt it), and the whole Atom arc will probably be what Countdown's about in some way. I guess that's the way of comics, not to resolve anything. It still... kinda sucks though.

[pureclint]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that Identity Crisis was crafted to get people to read other comics. The new Captain Boomerang and some mind-wiping stuff is going to take place in Flash, Jack Drake fallout will (hopefully) happen in Robin, the mind-wipe of Batman will take place in JLA (I'd like to think it takes place in Batman but I doubt it), and the whole Atom arc will probably be what Countdown's about in some way. I guess that's the way of comics, not to resolve anything. It still... kinda sucks though.


They resolved some but I think IC was optioned to get a few things done.

Kill a few characters
Explore a more "real" side of the Heroes
Amp up the Villians
Tie in to all the set up and create some more set up for future stories, (Just about EVERY comic storyline does this, IC tied up its main plot thread yet it left some things open)

[Geardaddy]

Here are a couple of questions that entered my mind upon completion of Identity Crisis.

1) Will there be some animosity between Ralph and Ray due to the events of IC? I'd like to see how the two characters interact now with all that has happened.

2) The last scene with Ralph made me wonder if Ralph has snapped. I believe it was meant to be him talking to her through a spiritual means, but it wouldn't be far fetched at all to have Ralph snap due to his loss. Could this and should this result if Ralph going rogue and becoming a villian? It's not likely, but kinda fun to think about.

[David O Burcham]

Ralph talking to sue is no nuttier than someone talking to their loved one's headstone in a cemetary. I though it was touching.

[VietN]

All I got from issue #7 was who did the deed.

THAT is the only thing that was resolved. I feel cheated!!!

Everyone here has great questions that should have been resolved. I don't care if they're going to go into what happened in some other story arc. You build a story, you should finish it.

[Zero Hunter]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that Identity Crisis was crafted to get people to read other comics. The new Captain Boomerang and some mind-wiping stuff is going to take place in Flash, Jack Drake fallout will (hopefully) happen in Robin, the mind-wipe of Batman will take place in JLA (I'd like to think it takes place in Batman but I doubt it), and the whole Atom arc will probably be what Countdown's about in some way. I guess that's the way of comics, not to resolve anything. It still... kinda sucks though.

Boomerang JR. looks like he will be in next months issue of the Flash which is the funeral of Captain Boomerang.

[Titanium]

2) The last scene with Ralph made me wonder if Ralph has snapped. I believe it was meant to be him talking to her through a spiritual means, but it wouldn't be far fetched at all to have Ralph snap due to his loss. Could this and should this result if Ralph going rogue and becoming a villian? It's not likely, but kinda fun to think about.


I don't want to see it, but if Plastic Man is supposedly super deadly according to Batman, an evil Elongated Man could be even more dangerous. Elongated Man pushing his powers to their limit all in the sake of vengeance, putting Plastic Man to shame.

[Kevinroc]

Boomerang JR. looks like he will be in next months issue of the Flash which is the funeral of Captain Boomerang.

Seen the cover for Flash #220?

http://comicbookresources.com/news/preview.php?image=solicits/dc032005/big/FlashCv220.jpg

[Rich L]

Ralph talking to sue is no nuttier than someone talking to their loved one's headstone in a cemetary. I though it was touching.

Ditto. And don't forget that it was Ollie that suggested that Ralph talk to Sue, and that she could hear him. The 'I love you too' was a nice final touch.

I think that as a whole the series was succesful but there are problems and questions left open;

1. How did Jean know Tim's secret identity?

2. Will Atom recover (I assume that JLA is set before IC now, and I now wonder if the Countdown cover has been altered somehow, and its actually Ray on there)?

3. Jean knows most of the superhero community's id's; and now she's in Arkham?!? Recipe for trouble!

4. How did Jean know to contact Calculator?

5. Why set up plotlines as red herrings only to allow them to spin off into other titles (Owen, armor, etc)? I mean, good from a sales standpoint but lousy from a storytelling standpoint.

6. Is this really going to change the DCU? At the moment the only people who know about the mindwipes who didn't before are Flash and Light -although with Light appearing in the Titans, I suspect that could change...

7. I suspect we will see Batman realising what the Pact did and performing a smackdown - that should be interesting...

8. Will Ralph recover? And will we see him in the DCU anytime soon?

Anyway, overall not a bad story but too many spin offs to be self contained...

[matewan1990]

Boomerang JR. looks like he will be in next months issue of the Flash which is the funeral of Captain Boomerang.

Could Boomerang Jr. have some relation to The Top, who, as it's been shown, was able to jump around into other people's bodies? The Top has superspeed. I'm just hoping that Boomerang Jr. isn't the lovechild of Barry Allen and Gwen Stacy ... you know (now) how she got around ...

[bannermanonemillion]

Ditto. And don't forget that it was Ollie that suggested that Ralph talk to Sue, and that she could hear him. The 'I love you too' was a nice final touch.

I think that as a whole the series was succesful but there are problems and questions left open;

1. How did Jean know Tim's secret identity?

2. Will Atom recover (I assume that JLA is set before IC now, and I now wonder if the Countdown cover has been altered somehow, and its actually Ray on there)?

3. Jean knows most of the superhero community's id's; and now she's in Arkham?!? Recipe for trouble!

4. How did Jean know to contact Calculator?

5. Why set up plotlines as red herrings only to allow them to spin off into other titles (Owen, armor, etc)? I mean, good from a sales standpoint but lousy from a storytelling standpoint.

6. Is this really going to change the DCU? At the moment the only people who know about the mindwipes who didn't before are Flash and Light -although with Light appearing in the Titans, I suspect that could change...

7. I suspect we will see Batman realising what the Pact did and performing a smackdown - that should be interesting...

8. Will Ralph recover? And will we see him in the DCU anytime soon?

Anyway, overall not a bad story but too many spin offs to be self contained...


If nothing else I'm prayin' for #7 to happen!

[CjP]

If nothing else I'm prayin' for #7 to happen!

Heh. Tower of Babel 2.0, anyone? :D

[Forsaken_One]

Anyone remember the Elseworld's Finest with Barbara Gordon's Gotham completely cut off from the rest of the US? That's kinda what I'd like to see Gotham become under Batman for metahumans. You can play anywhere else, but come here and you'll end up in jail, regardless of which side you're on.

[hitokiri_]

especially issue 7. am i the only one who thinks that IDC is just a setup for a new event.

[Mon-el]

Nope your not the only one that enjoyed Identity Crisis and that includes #7. Sure Its a set up for possible stories what series isn't nowadays. I normally refuse to respond to the Ic threads, but I enjoyed the series alot.

[Nightcrawler]

I really didn't like IDC.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I enjoyed It. I named It as my Top Ten In DC this year!

[hitokiri_]

am i the only one who also believes that the hanging plot line and holes in the story is deliberate in order for the continuity to take place.

am i the only one who sees a possible batman-atom crossover, and joker and jean loring as their enemies?

[mike626]

I also liked IDC I think it was the best story to come out in awhile.

[Viking Bastard]

And I give you: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=33634

Thou art on the winning side, yes?

[hitokiri_]

well... it seems that its not only me who really enjoyed IDC.

[Bat-Mite]

am i the only one who also believes that the hanging plot line and holes in the story is deliberate in order for the continuity to take place.


No, I believe the plot holes are just plot holes.

Do notice that I started liking IDC, but really... the revelation of issue 7... plot holes big enough you can ride Jupiter through them and still have space to do parallel parking with it.

How can Jean be the killer? She was in another city and in another state just a few moments after the murder. She couldn't even use the thing that killed Sue, only Atom can use his tech without dying, that's the whole point of why he doesn't share it with others. Why in crap's name she had a flame thrower with her?

These are not plot holes, these are really crappy ass writing faults.

As a murder mystery, which was what originally attracted me to this mini series, it fails abysmally.

As drama, it is almost emotional pornography.

[Bat-Mite]

Oh, and even if these plot holes are done deliberately, then we have a bigger plot hole. why didn't Atom or Batman go "Hey... wait a minute, that crap makes no freaking sense!" since they should easily figure out it doesn't.

[HartyPotter]

I think the majority of the people seem to think that it was a very good story. What is more debateable is whether it was worth the hype that DC gave it. Such as the promise of major shift in the status quo. I can see how IC could potentially lead to something major affecting the DCU, but it didn't happen in the pages of that story.

[hitokiri_]

I think the majority of the people seem to think that it was a very good story. What is more debateable is whether it was worth the hype that DC gave it. Such as the promise of major shift in the status quo. I can see how IC could potentially lead to something major affecting the DCU, but it didn't happen in the pages of that story.



well... at the section of IDC in dccomics.com, the critics told the readers that this is a good pull for those who haven't read dc. so its safe to say that this is just the beginning. dc has something for the readers in 2005 that's for sure.

[HartyPotter]

yup, and I'll definitely be on board for that. :)

And I heart Jeon Ji Hyun

[hitokiri_]

yup, and I'll definitely be on board for that. :)

And I heart Jeon Ji Hyun



wow, you know her.

[HartyPotter]

wow, you know her.

Well, I'm a Korean-American so I somewhat familiar with a few of South Korea's actors and actresses in movies and dramas. I saw My Sassy Girl a few years ago and have since then saw the rest of her movies (with the exception of White Valentine, because I heard it was a bore). Since then, I've seen MSG and the "prequel" Windstruck (I'm using the American/International titles) so many times I've lost count.

[Kevin Street]

Rich L summed things up nicely.

1. How did Jean know Tim's secret identity?

Yeah, this is probably the strangest question. It's hard to believe that some secondary character like Alfred told her, and since Tim came onto the superhero scene long after Jean left it, there's no simple reason she'd know this information. It does make one wonder how many other identities Jean has learned.

3. Jean knows most of the superhero community's id's; and now she's in Arkham?!? Recipe for trouble!

Exactly! And to make it even worse, the Arkham villians probably know that she's there because of the ID killings (they were widely publicized on TV, and Jean's incarceration was front page news in the Enquirer), so they know she has knowledge of many heroes secrets.

It makes me wonder if Batman or the other heroes had her mindwiped...

4. How did Jean know to contact Calculator

Good question! And for that matter, where did Jean find the flamethrower and the other shrunken weapons she mentions? She may be a lawyer, but she pulled off quite a trick when she found and hired Calculator, then hid her tracks so effectively he couldn't find her later. Who knew that Jean had such resourcefulness and skill?

6. Is this really going to change the DCU? At the moment the only people who know about the mindwipes who didn't before are Flash and Light -although with Light appearing in the Titans, I suspect that could change...

7. I suspect we will see Batman realising what the Pact did and performing a smackdown - that should be interesting...

Yeah, I can't see any way Bruce would ever accept people screwing with his mind, especially after the whole Wally/Spectre thing. This has to be a major source of conflict in the future, if they want to remain true to his character. Batman trusts no one unless he absolutely has to - and now he finds out that a bunch of the people he grudgingly learned to trust did this to him, while others knew about it and said nothing? Hoo boy.

[The Shadow]

5. Why set up plotlines as red herrings only to allow them to spin off into other titles (Owen, armor, etc)? I mean, good from a sales standpoint but lousy from a storytelling standpoint.

6. Is this really going to change the DCU?
Those are my 2 biggest issues.

[Kevinroc]

Ditto. And don't forget that it was Ollie that suggested that Ralph talk to Sue, and that she could hear him. The 'I love you too' was a nice final touch.

I think that as a whole the series was succesful but there are problems and questions left open;

1. How did Jean know Tim's secret identity?

That was never explained in any satisfactory manner.

2. Will Atom recover (I assume that JLA is set before IC now, and I now wonder if the Countdown cover has been altered somehow, and its actually Ray on there)?

I'm sure Atom will come back at some point.

3. Jean knows most of the superhero community's id's; and now she's in Arkham?!? Recipe for trouble!

She's so heavily medicated she wouldn't be able to talk to anybody anyways.

4. How did Jean know to contact Calculator?

In the mini, Atom told Jean that Hawkman wanted to investigate Calculator since he was a big threat. This was before Jack Drake was killed.

5. Why set up plotlines as red herrings only to allow them to spin off into other titles (Owen, armor, etc)? I mean, good from a sales standpoint but lousy from a storytelling standpoint.

Definitely so. Other writers have to work with the changes made to the DCU and that is rather sloppy.

6. Is this really going to change the DCU? At the moment the only people who know about the mindwipes who didn't before are Flash and Light -although with Light appearing in the Titans, I suspect that could change...

That depends on the other writers. Although Geoff Johns, Judd Winick and Greg Rucka have spoken to Meltzer and are following up on the events of ID Crisis in the various titles that they write.

7. I suspect we will see Batman realising what the Pact did and performing a smackdown - that should be interesting...

Barry's dead. Not much Bats can do about that.

I don't think Hal will be rejoining the JLA anytime soon anyways. Even without knowing about The Pact, Bats would still rather have John or Kyle as the JLA's resident GL, but he definitely won't be happy with Hal anytime soon. Whether he finds out or not.

Dinah's in the Birds of Prey and that group is no longer operating in Gotham.

Atom's MIA.

Hawkman is more attached to the JSA even though he isn't currently a member.

Green Arrow... who knows. But Bats won't be happy.

I don't know if JLA writer Kurt Busiek will do any ID Crisis follow-ups. He's currently in the middle of his CSA story, then a fill in team then Busiek is on the book regularly for the forseeable future.

8. Will Ralph recover? And will we see him in the DCU anytime soon?

I don't know if we'll see Ralph soon but I imagine he will recover. It'll take time...

Anyway, overall not a bad story but too many spin offs to be self contained...

[ElijahS23]

IDC has been one of the biggest comic book letdowns that I can remember. After being enthralled w/ issue #1, like most were, I found myself at issue #7 feeling the exact opposite. The pacing was lousy and, although I liked Morales' art in JSA (which in IDC is pretty lackluster), it just didn't complement Meltzer's writing most of the time. It was like, "Okay, here's the killer..., now let's wrap it up, B!"
IMHO, Meltzer is 1 and 1 so far (I liked "Archer's Quest") in comics, and I'm sort of hesitant to check out anything else he does in comics...

[Calamas]

I enjoyed It. I named It as my Top Ten In DC this year!
I’m with SUPERECWFAN1 on this. It also made my Top 10 in DC. But I have to disagree with you, hitokiri. #7 was a major disappointment. The reason the series makes my Top 10 is because it had me anxiously awaiting each next issue and everybody was talking about it, especially in the wake of “Dissembled,” which was horrible. I know I keep repeating myself, but here are my two quotes that sum it up:

In reference to the Top 10: If the final issue had come out next year, Identity Crisis would have made #1.

And in reference to the series as a whole: I wasn’t cheated out of $28.00, I was cheated out of four.

[NickVinson]

especially issue 7. am i the only one who thinks that IDC is just a setup for a new event.

No I enjoyed it immensly. At first I thought 7 was a let down. and then the more I thought about it the better I liked it.

[BlackKnight]

I thought IDC was an excellent book, the ending was not a let down to me, but heart wrenching, to find that a woman wants you back so much that she goes crazy is just scary and the whole thing with Ralph at the end was both heart wrenching and heart warming at the same time...

[pureclint]

Exactly BK, and of course the series set up tons of neat little stories to come...as a good company crossover should.

[BlackKnight]

Exactly BK, and of course the series set up tons of neat little stories to come...as a good company crossover should.

Oh god we agreed, looking for the end of the world. :) (just joking).

[tricksterpup]

I thought IDC was an excellent book, the ending was not a let down to me, but heart wrenching, to find that a woman wants you back so much that she goes crazy is just scary and the whole thing with Ralph at the end was both heart wrenching and heart warming at the same time...
I am also with this.. This was a touching ending of a hell of a ride. It a was a very deep book at the end and very real.

[pureclint]

Oh god we agreed, looking for the end of the world. :) (just joking).


He man we agree here and there ...mostly we disagree on the changes in Avengers, that I just chalk up to different tastes. :rolleyes:

[BlackKnight]

He man we agree here and there ...mostly we disagree on the changes in Avengers, that I just chalk up to different tastes. :rolleyes:

I was just joking, I know we actually agree on a lot except with Avengers.. I don't know what to chack that up to, guess taste works..

[pureclint]

You know it would royaly suck if part of the world ended everytime we agreed...perhaps for the better good we need to debate more!!! :D

As to Avengers tastes it is odd to me; Dane Whitman was my fav Avenger for a while when I was younger (in the BK, Crystal, Sersi era) and we both have a high respect for the Avengers history...

Now back to IDC...

What was your favorite scene?

My two where the Deathstroke (the true anti Captain America) fight and the Hal Ollie talk...

[BlackKnight]

You know it would royaly suck if part of the world ended everytime we agreed...perhaps for the better good we need to debate more!!!

LOL, well I suppose you might like the new Thor idea or think it would be cool for spidey to lose his Secret ID.. Or we can go back to the tried and true "Wolverine is just not an avenger debate". LOL

[Ned Leeds]

....am i the only one who thinks that IDC is just a setup for a new event.

Yes


And Reference to thread title... Yes.

You are the only one who like it.

[Buried Alien]

I enjoyed IDENTITY CRISIS. The violence was a bit over-the-top, but the storytelling was pretty solid. It's the kind of story I'll go for once, but I hope DC doesn't make a habit of this kind of story. It's the kind of story that is good if you get one taste of it, but you don't want to go back for more.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kevinroc]

I enjoyed It. I named It as my Top Ten In DC this year!

It amazes me that you and I are on the opposite end of Sins Past (I liked it, you hated it) and IDC (you loved it and I didn't care for it).

Really, it is amazing.

[The Shadow]

IDC has been one of the biggest comic book letdowns that I can remember. After being enthralled w/ issue #1, like most were, I found myself at issue #7 feeling the exact opposite. The pacing was lousy and, although I liked Morales' art in JSA (which in IDC is pretty lackluster), it just didn't complement Meltzer's writing most of the time. It was like, "Okay, here's the killer..., now let's wrap it up, B!"
I found it a let down too... I was SO into it from the beginning... but the plot holes were HUGE, and red herrings that SHOULD have been dealt with or at least acknowledged (witha See Batman #??? for the full story) were left up in the air... I know they were suppose to be plot threads for other series'... but like any good story they SHOULD have been dealt with.

I LOVED (in a readership way) the death of Tim's father... very well done, as was the surprise I had at who the murderer was. That being said the speed at which the Atom deducted WHO the killer was was too fast and seemed rushed.

I was cool about the art... people slam Liefeld for his lack of anatomy... well, Rags also seems to lack the basics. Some of the panels were HORRIBLE and some weren't bad...

Loved issues 1-5, 6 was OK and 7 was the let down of the year for me.

[Calamas]

I found it a let down too... I was SO into it from the beginning... but the plot holes were HUGE, and red herrings that SHOULD have been dealt with or at least acknowledged (witha See Batman #??? for the full story) were left up in the air... I know they were suppose to be plot threads for other series'... but like any good story they SHOULD have been dealt with.
Your mention of red herrings reminds me of something John Dickson Carr wrote in his essay, “The Grandest Game in the World”:

“It’s all very well to have your eight suspects parading in their endless ring-around-the-rosebush outside the library. That’s fine. But give some sensible reason why they were there. If you must shower the room with bus tickets, provide a reason for that too. In other words, construct your story.”

Sums it up for me. Red herrings are fine as long as you eventually explain their presence. Too much was left unexplained in Identity Crisis #7.

[blue13]

are you kidding me?

NO, you're not the only person who enjoyed IC.

of course not -- look at the phenomenal sales.

[Lurch]

As stated by many others, you're far from the only one who enjoyed it. However, I felt let down by the ending. They should have had an all encompassing story, but instead left too many great possible threads hanging. I understand that some of those will be picked up by other writers who will run with them, but many will undoubtedly be left...hanging.

I enjoyed it, but I don't like the feeling that I was manipulated by the PTB.

[The Shadow]

of course not -- look at the phenomenal sales.
Sales don't always equal enjoyment!

Perhaps people were duped by the hype machine and figured they should finish the story

[The Shadow]

Your mention of red herrings reminds me something John Dickson Carr wrote in his essay, “The Grandest Game in the World”:

“It’s all very well to have your eight suspects parading in their endless ring-around-the-rosebush outside the library. That’s fine. But give some sensible reason why they were there. If you must shower the room with bus tickets, provide a reason for that too. In other words, construct your story.”

Sums it up for me. Red herrings are fine as long as you eventually explain their presence. Too much was left unexplained in Identity Crisis #7.
Yeah... my feelings too... which is odd considering Meltzer is a novelist by trade...

[tymac]

I was really into it through issue 5. At the end of six, i didn't like the options that were left, and 7 left me cold. I hate to have spent 28.00 on "eh?", which was my assessment after 7.

I didn't mind thar Jean was the killer, but the motive was terrible. Actually, I'd have preferred the emergence of a mega-villain from the B-listers, but after 6 I was pretty sure that wasn't happening.

[David O Burcham]

As evidenced by the responses, no, hito, you are not the only one who enjoyed it.

Add me to the list.

Great art. Great dialouge. Ramifications that will be felt in the DCU's future.

"Everything goes back to normal...."?

I don't think so!!!

[The Shadow]

Great art.
VERY debatable...

[/QUOTE]Ramifications that will be felt in the DCU's future.

"Everything goes back to normal...."?

I don't think so!!! [/QUOTE]
Other than the Bat books with Tim's father dying and the mind wipe what ramifications?

No one on the current JLA was involved... Green Arrow will likely have his membership revoked (who cares?)... we have a NEW C grade villain in Boomerang Jr. (again, who cares?)... Jean knows Batman's identity (or Tim's anyway), but she's a nut job in a psycho ward. VERY credible... if you're a psycho!... Firestorm is now officially dead, so all 4 fans of the original can be upset... we now OFFICIALLY know the villains have a hang out (wow... I'm blown away!)

Seriously... what won't be forgotten in a month or 2 OTHER THAN TIM'S DAD and MAYBE the mindwipe?

[Blueferret]

I hadn't even thought about Hal, but why the hell couldn't he answer Ollie's question as to who did it when they were talking? Who was he protecting?? That scene makes no sense looking back upon it. Also, I've posted this on other threads, Meltzer said that this story evolved from him being asked to kill a specific character. Who was that? Firestorm? I hope not; he got whacked in 3 panels.

[revolver86]

Add me to the list of people that loved this. Until issue 7, I was in the "knid of likeing it" section, but the reveal at the end totally changed the feel of the story and made it better, as evidenced by the fact that I re-read the whole thing tonight and got a totally different vibe than before. This book was all about showing that the DC heros are essentially flawed. That one loose screw can bring their whole system down and have them chasing their tails, and revealing major secrets to eachother, all because someone deep inside their group was mentally sick and f**ked up things real bad. It also showed that the villains are finally getting together and are going to turn themselves into a real threat in the near future. This book was also cool because there are little things that are very obviously leading into this Countdown in March. A small, character based tale is the first chapter in what might be the biggest DC story ever told. That's what I look at IC as, "Chapter 1" of Crisis 2!!!

[KJ_81]

I really enjoyed IDC, other than the whole flame-thrower thing. I thought most girls carried a spare lipstick, not a spare flamethrower.

[Mr. Biggstuff]

I liked it alot. But the falme thower but then again shes nuts so maybe in her mind she didnt set out to kill her. And I love Rags art I want him on Green Arrow.

[HomerJay]

Mods: Go ahead and integrate this into one of the other IC threads if it was inappropriate for me to start a new one.

Now that IDENTITY CRISIS has wrapped up, what is your verdict? Good, bad, ugly?

Personally, I actually REALLY liked it. The reason I really liked Identity Crisis was because we saw so little of the big 3 (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman). With the exception of one issue, we really only saw Batman & Superman through the eyes of the "Tier 2" heroes. It was interesting to see how much respect, reverence, fear, and even resentment the other heroes hold for them.

It actually read more like a Marvel story written by Bendis (heavy on mood, characterization, dialogue). IMO, this story will (if it hasn't already) get more Marvel readers reading DC again.
I consider myself a Marvel guy (with the exception of Batman and to a lesser extent, Superman) but I decided to check out IDENTITY CRISIS. Now I'm buying Green Lantern, Flash, Superman, etc. again.

THOUGHTS?

[BlackKnight]

Yeah... my feelings too... which is odd considering Meltzer is a novelist by trade...

Just on a side not on this, this goes for all comics. :)

[Viking Bastard]

I voted Good.

[thehod]

Ditto.

Excellent for six issues, and then a slight anti-climatic feeling to the final issue, but with a second reading (the whole thing I mean, not just issue 7) it read a whole lot better and far more enjoyable.

[tymac]

I voted OK. Some parts of the story I founds to be very entertaining, others were kind of bleh. For me, the story lost it's momentum after 5.

I did get a lot of fun out of the endless whodunit? debates. On the other hand, I'll be content never to hear the word mindwipe again.

[Arvandor]

There's already been a poll, but what the hell, let's have another.

Once again, I voted that I liked it. The final issue WAS a bit of a letdown, and there were far too many meaningless scenes, but overrall, as an exploration of the consequences of the secret identity, I think it works.

[Karl J. Barnes]

It was okay, eventhough some of the subject matter was a bit intense. It was the payoff that lowered this mini-series in my eyes. Even when it seemed to point to Jean, I was hoping that there was another explaination.

[heretic]

Some of the worst plotting and characterization I have seen, and the whole would-be avant garde attitude towards the Silver Age left a horrid taste in my mouth.

And this from a Marvel Fan/X-Zombie.

HTG

[Sandy Hausler]

I thought that only Ray could grow. If anybody else does it, he or she explodes. Has that changed? (It would sure put a kaboosh on the JL solution.)

Sandy Hausler

[west3man]

I definitely feel like I wasted that money and am VERY tempted to throw my issues away, instead of even trying to sell them. I couldn't even consider donation to community centers as an option, considering the content.

I can't judge that as anything, but "Bad."

Sandy: Good point.

[C.O. Jones]

I voted good---if there was a vote between good and OK I'da gone there, like a C- story with B+ tendencies. I loved the buzz we got every month when a new issue came out and all of the discussions that stemmed from it. This was a major event that kinda imploded on itself storywise, but the overall concept was great. I'm glad I got introduced to those 3 cool Flash tie-in stories in that I might have found another worthwhile title to buy.

[Bat-Mite]

Well, I voted bad because, as a murder mystery, it is downright retarded for reasons already explained elsewhere.

[TJ Shoun]

I loved it.

It was the book I most anticipated for the past 7 months.

Rags art was superb and the Meltzer's mystery was absolutely enthralling.

The mature subject matter and grim mood didn't bother me one bit. It might have, if children still read superhero comics -- but they don't.

I'd love to see more stuff like IC from DC in the future.

[HomerJay]

The mature subject matter and grim mood didn't bother me one bit. It might have, if children still read superhero comics -- but they don't.



Sad but true. Most kids between the ages of 6 and 13 don't even read comics anymore.
I offered to buy my 6 yr-old nephew subscriptions to any 2 Marvel Age comics he wanted, but he couldn't have cared less. He wants nothing to do with anything unless YuGiOh is involved.

[monkeywarplane]

I was teetering between excellent and good... the only reason I would have voted "good" was the huge buildup that ended in a mere squeak... and #4 was kinda boring relative to the issues that lead up to it... this was the most excited about comics that I have been in a while and that says a lot especially from a Marvel guy.

I ended up voting "excellent"

Stuart

[Deathstroke]

It was good.

[Gladiator X]

Crap on a crap cracker woulda left a better taste in my mouth then this did.

[Steeven]

I voted excellent.

I loved the art, and the story kept me wanting more.

I can understand how the story and characterization could put people off, but I'm pretty new to the DC world other than watching the Superfriends as a kid and reading Giffen's JLI, so being new to these characters, other than the aforementioned bits, it was all, well . . . new, to me.

[Beatnikman]

The thing that's been nagging at me for the last week is the problem with the payoff. Not that Jean's the killer ... I haven't been reading comics long enough to know her or have any kind of connection to her.

But what's bugging me is that the major retcon stuff, the rape of Sue Dibney and the subsequent mind wiping, had nothing to do with the murder in this story and the mystery that followed. That whole part of the story was a red herring. An emotionally charged one (to really get your attention) for sure, but still seemed to be in there just to divert our attention from the real motives. I was willing to go along for the ride on those aspects of the story, in hopes there would be some significant consequences from them. But there wasn't. And it makes me wish they had chosen some other way to distract us from Jean's fairly ridiculous motive (since, it seems like Ray would have come back if she'd just invited him over for dinner).

And Morales' art was pretty hit-and-miss for me. Some panels were great, some were pretty bad, and most were fine. His storytelling and pacing, though, were pretty darn good.

So, I already voted "good," but after typing all that out, I think I would change it to "OK."

[CjP]

I hadn't even thought about Hal, but why the hell couldn't he answer Ollie's question as to who did it when they were talking? Who was he protecting?? That scene makes no sense looking back upon it. Also, I've posted this on other threads, Meltzer said that this story evolved from him being asked to kill a specific character. Who was that? Firestorm? I hope not; he got whacked in 3 panels.
Waaay OT, but...

looking at your avatar, anyone notice that Captain Cold is basically Marvel's The Mole with a parka? :rolleyes:

[David O Burcham]

At least Keith Giffen liked it.

Finally, all the knee-jerk speculation that he left DC because of what happened to Sue turned out to be typical 'net rumor hogwash.

See the article on the homepage.

I love it! :D

[sehthan]

So, anybody else get the impression Wally wants to tell Bats?

[powerforward]

1) why didn't sue leave any evidence behind when she grew to normal size?
2) who is capt. boomerang's jr. mother?
3) did bats know he was mind-wiped?
4) how did bats know it was jean and not ray?
5) how did jean know everybodys secret id? (tim's?)
5) how did the calculator see everything that was going on( ollie and wally, bats, etc? and if he did couldn't he find out their id's?
i still have a ton of questions, and i wish something was done with phobia and moon, it looked like something was being set up big for them, but nothing.

[hangmanjury]

How the hell did everyone know everyone's identity?

That's what I wanna know.

[The Shadow]

Well, I voted bad because, as a murder mystery, it is downright retarded for reasons already explained elsewhere.
Me too for the same reason

[pauwoo]

I loved it, best thing i have read from DC in a long time.

[TheDrizzt]

Gratuitous violence and plot holes big enough to pilot a spaceship through. What's not to love?

I'm thinking "Brad Meltzer" is actually a psuedonym for "Ron Marz." Or vice versa. ;)

[WolverineEatsBabies]

I've got one.
Where was Martian Manhunter during all this?
Couldnt he have erased peoples memories better than Zatanna?

[T Rath]

I went ok. Would have voted excellent if no. 7 hadn't been such a let down. It was a mystery and mysteries depend heavily on the ending. With as weak an ending as IC had, I was tempted to vote bad, but opted for middle ground.

[David O Burcham]

I've got one.
Where was Martian Manhunter during all this?
Couldnt he have erased peoples memories better than Zatanna?
During the "Satelitte Era" of the JLA, Martian Manhunter wasn't a member.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Jean Loring was able to figure out all the secret identities she didn't already know through Ray Palmer by simple deduction and investigation.

I mean, if you already know that Batman is Bruce Wayne, it wouldn't be that difficult to figure out that that his ward Dick Grayson was Robin and that the current kid who hangs around with Bruce Wayne a lot, Tim Drake, is probably the current Robin.

[Apathy Boy]

I think the Internet community is really overreacting over this. I'm sure Meltzer will resolve all of these dangling plot points in the eighth issue.

[Apathy Boy]

I voted OK.

The resolution of the murder mystery was a flaming pile of donkey dung. And unlike many other people, I wasn't blown away by the story and art in any of the previous issues.

On the flip side, I didn't think any of the first six issues were all that bad, either. Unlike many other people (these would be "other" other people), I wasn't particularly offended by the darker content. And despite the average craftsmanship of the story and art, this book knew what it was doing when it comes to hype: this was the comic that I absolutely HAD to read as soon as it came out.

In the end, the good of the series outweighs the sheer like-high-heels-grinding-into-your-groin-awfulness of the final issue. Just barely, but enough that I don't feel like I've wasted my time on this.

[Apathy Boy]

Other than the Bat books with Tim's father dying and the mind wipe what ramifications?

No one on the current JLA was involved... Green Arrow will likely have his membership revoked (who cares?)... we have a NEW C grade villain in Boomerang Jr. (again, who cares?)... Jean knows Batman's identity (or Tim's anyway), but she's a nut job in a psycho ward. VERY credible... if you're a psycho!... Firestorm is now officially dead, so all 4 fans of the original can be upset... we now OFFICIALLY know the villains have a hang out (wow... I'm blown away!)

Seriously... what won't be forgotten in a month or 2 OTHER THAN TIM'S DAD and MAYBE the mindwipe?One minor ramification that I'm looking forward to is the emerging Green Arrow-Deathstroke rivalry. Green Arrow desperately needs some decent rogues and Deathstroke desperately needs to fight someone other than kids. I think the two of them going head-to-head will be a lot of fun.

I just hope it doesn't end with the new Speedy calling in the Teen Titans to bail Ollie out.

[Namora]

It was okay. So many silver age spouses have been killed off (or worse) in the DC universe over the years, I didn't blink when Sue finally got whacked. The mystery was pretty good. My only major complaint was everything was too vague and nothing really explained. If this was a $7.95 one shot, I would have shrugged, but at a cost of around $30 - it's way too little bang for the buck. But then again my fave run of the JL was Keith Giffins and the only silver age JLA stuff I like was the yearly cross over to Earth-2 or such crossovers. :D

[Smarty Jones]

Introducing a lot of retconned baggage on Silver Age superheroes that had nothing to do with an inane plot does not make for good writing. I found the final issue to be insulting to anyone who has read or knows about The Justice League.

[The Shadow]

I voted OK.

The resolution of the murder mystery was a flaming pile of donkey dung. And unlike many other people, I wasn't blown away by the story and art in any of the previous issues.

On the flip side, I didn't think any of the first six issues were all that bad, either. Unlike many other people (these would be "other" other people), I wasn't particularly offended by the darker content. And despite the average craftsmanship of the story and art, this book knew what it was doing when it comes to hype: this was the comic that I absolutely HAD to read as soon as it came out.

In the end, the good of the series outweighs the sheer like-high-heels-grinding-into-your-groin-awfulness of the final issue. Just barely, but enough that I don't feel like I've wasted my time on this.
Yeah... good points.

I enjoyed the first issues so much that when I left the comic store I would sit in my car and read the issue right away.

It was THE MUST READ book of '04... and they got everyone interested in it.

[Smarty Jones]

What made "Identity Crisis" so hot was the shocking event in the second issue, when Doctor Light retroactively raped Sue Dibny. That created a lot of buzz, just to see how that would be resolved. But by the latter books it became apparent that act and others were more or less for shock value to garner people's attention.

In the end, what made people clamor for "Identity Crisis" instead became the things that pissed off so many people.

[pureclint]

In the end, what made people clamor for "Identity Crisis" instead became the things that pissed off so many people.


SO 50% of the people, all who said it was good or excellent(at time of my post), bought it because they where pissed off?

Got it...

[Paul McEnery]

SO 50% of the people, all who said it was good or excellent(at time of my post), bought it because they where pissed off?

Got it...
Nope. They bought it because they thought the edgy stuff, and the mystery stuff, was going to pan out into something worth a damn. And then it wasn't. And then they were pissed off.

Not me. I could see it wasn't going to worth a damn from the gitgo. Wheeeee. I win.

[JeffreyWKramer]

There should have been another category in the poll - "Horrendously Awful", or "Big, steaming plate of turds" or "Dumber than Britney Spears Drunk". If there had been one like that, I'd have picked that, rather than bad... and in fact, it probably deserves a category about three levels lower than those I list above.

Poor characterization, illogical plot elements and writing, needless retcons, more continuity violations than I could list in one post at CBR due to maximum post size, tons of plotlines left dangling and a moral tone that is completely at odds with - and destructive to - that of the general DCU, IDENTITY CRISIS fails as a superhero comic, as a mystery and as something even worth reading.

Really, really awful.

[The Shadow]

There should have been another category in the poll - "Horrendously Awful", or "Big, steaming plate of turds" or "Dumber than Britney Spears Drunk". If there had been one like that, I'd have picked that, rather than bad... and in fact, it probably deserves a category about three levels lower than those I list above.

Poor characterization, illogical plot elements and writing, needless retcons, more continuity violations than I could list in one post at CBR due to maximum post size, tons of plotlines left dangling and a moral tone that is completely at odds with - and destructive to - that of the general DCU, IDENTITY CRISIS fails as a superhero comic, as a mystery and as something even worth reading.

Really, really awful.
So... what did you REALLY think?

LOL

What is the maximum post size out of curiousity?

[JeffreyWKramer]

So... what did you REALLY think?

LOL

Stating what I really thought would have violated some of Arune's rules for this forum.

What is the maximum post size out of curiousity?

I can't remember, something like 5000 words? I dunno. I've had to split long posts into multiple parts in the past. Detailing everything wrong with IC would probably take me no fewer than 11 posts, maxed out.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Have some guts and grow some balls, folks.

So far this morning, I've received PMs and emails from multiple folk (one using a Yahoo ID that doesn't match any CBR name) that more or less constitute hate mail from folk who don't like me dissing total crap books like IDENTITY CRISIS and GL: REBIRTH on this Forum. The more thoughtful critiques I've received have included brilliance like "There's a Rumbles thread for all this negativity, why bring it to the DCU board?" and "Why don't you just post on books you like, then, rather than dissing ones others like?"

The less thoughtful ones... well, I imagine if they'd been expressed in a traditional letter, said letter would have been written in green Crayola on Big Chief tablet paper.

Guys, if you want to quiz me or call my judgment into question, feel free... but do it in the Forums, please.

As to answers to your queries, pick an answer from the choices listed below.
a) because there are so many more crap books these days
b) because someone has to try to talk some sense and taste into you guys
c) because I'm Satan
d) All of the above

[Smarty Jones]

"SO 50% of the people, all who said it was good or excellent(at time of my post), bought it because they where pissed off?

Got it..."

I'm sorry that I don't have a herd mentality. If you like it, fine. But last I looked I posted MY OPINION, not one co-signed by you.

"Identity Crisis" became a case of "What can Brad Meltzer do next?" to these long-established personalities and characters. The event itself -- the murder of Sue Dibny -- almost became secondary until the final issue, which is expected to tie in all this baggage -- the mind wipes, the rape of Dibny, etc. Instead, there was an ending that patently insulted me as a comic book reader for nearly 30 years.

[pureclint]

I'm sorry that I don't have a herd mentality. If you like it, fine. But last I looked I posted MY OPINION, not one co-signed by you.


Who ever said you could not have an opinion but your last ,the one I was reffering t,o read like people bought the series because they where pissed off about it, and I was pointing out that if 50% thought it was good or better (here in the overly cynical comic book forum world I might add) it seems many clamored for it because they liked it...

Your the one who came off as waving away every one who liked the series...

[DLH1970]

I had to go with ok. Before issue 7 came out I would have considered it good or maybe even great. The ending was just too weak and there were too many plot points left up in the air to be satisfied with the series.

[Smarty Jones]

"Who ever said you could not have an opinion but your last ,the one I was reffering t,o read like people bought the series because they where pissed off about it, and I was pointing out that if 50% thought it was good or better (here in the overly cynical comic book forum world I might add) it seems many clamored for it because they liked it..."

A lot of people who bought and liked "Identity Crisis" stated that the ending cheated them at the end, including people at CBR. Some have said that they liked the series, but admitted that the ending left a bad taste in their mouths. That doesn't mean everyone, just that the reactions I have heard, read and seen generally have gone from disappointment to shock to disgust.

The bottom line is that none of the seedy elements introduced into long-standing characters -- from the retro mind wipes and rapes -- and ultimately having Jack Drake killed had anything to do with Sue Dibny's death. Moreover, the reason for Dibny's death was so incredibly silly that I have heard and read people not liking the ending, because it was so poorly executed.

I also know by some of your other posts on this book and others that you are a member of the "If you don't like, tough!" sentiment and feel that if someone objects there is a personal problem with them.

[pureclint]

I also know by some of your other posts on this book and others that you are a member of the "If you don't like, tough!" sentiment and feel that if someone objects there is a personal problem with them.


No I just disagree with the way YOU put things,you constantly think you know how everone feels or you talk down to people with your red words.

Sometimes like the above statement, your just flat out wrong. Where have I said people who dislike IC have any personal problems?

I just disagree with with some of the issues people have with the series, such as the characterization, but I guess since I ask you questions and disagree with some of the things your write it makes me a character assasian.

Ok I got that now to.

And if you do not know why Jack Drake's death had anything to do with the murder then I think you need to reread the series. A cover up of the murder has something to do with the murder to me (of course it did not have to be Jack it could have been any other chracter really)

[JeffreyWKramer]

And if you do not know why Jack Drake's death had anything to do with the murder then I think you need to reread the series. A cover up of the murder has something to do with the murder to me (of course it did not have to be Jack it could have been any other chracter really)

Of course, there is the problem of how the hell Jean Loring knew Tim's secret identity. She and Ray were divorced many years before Tim became Robin, and it's unlikely he'd be discussing other superheroes' secret identities with his ex-wife. For that matter, I can't think of a single reason how/why Ray would even know Tim and Robin were the same person, since he's rarely even had contact with Tim (other than maybe a couple of big crowd scenes in crossover events). For most of the time Tim was a Young Justice member, he used a false name in place of his true identity, so it's unlikely Batman would announce his real name to every occasional/reservist JLA member.

[Karl J. Barnes]

AIn't it cool news has a nice round robin discussion on the whole Identity Crisis series, which is pretty interesting, but really nothing that we haven't discussed already. But it is a nice nutshell of the whole series.

[Matt]

I thought it started off quite well and the art was quite nice.
The mystery elements were well set up and formed a great springboard for the rest and I have little or no problem with the beginning of the tale.

However, the ending was something of a large let down in a way which made most of the middle issues seem completely irrelevent. The fight with Deathstroke turned out to be more or less meaningless, ect.

Basically, it started out with a great deal of promise but fell flat; the story may have been much better served if the murderer had turned out to be a super villain going through with a devious plan instead of just the somewhat cliched insane wife.

[Smarty Jones]

"No I just disagree with the way YOU put things,you constantly think you know how everone feels or you talk down to people with your red words."

It sounds like a personal issue, because I didn't know red equals condescending. Like I said, you have taken comments critical to "Identity Crisis" almost personally. Maybe that is not how you want to come across, but whenever I make a general comment on how I feel about it you seem to take a personal offense. Not that I care, but to you it seems that you're especially sensitive to comments against "Identity Crisis."

"And if you do not know why Jack Drake's death had anything to do with the murder then I think you need to reread the series. A cover up of the murder has something to do with the murder to me (of course it did not have to be Jack it could have been any other chracter really)."

You really have to go out of the way to make that somewhat relational, given that Tim Drake's identity is not commonly known by most of the DC Universe. At one point Oracle and a good portion of Batman's closest confidantes did not know that Tim Drake was Robin, so how an obscure ex-wife of a reserve JLA member knew goes beyond suspending belief.

[David O Burcham]

Have some guts and grow some balls, folks.

So far this morning, I've received PMs and emails from multiple folk (one using a Yahoo ID that doesn't match any CBR name) that more or less constitute hate mail from folk who don't like me dissing total crap books like IDENTITY CRISIS and GL: REBIRTH on this Forum. The more thoughtful critiques I've received have included brilliance like "There's a Rumbles thread for all this negativity, why bring it to the DCU board?" and "Why don't you just post on books you like, then, rather than dissing ones others like?"


Although I disagree with you whole-heartedly on IDC, I feel your pain! I write a wrestling column for hollywoodjimmy.com and I get pretty much the same. Even more, I get threats of bodily harm and questioning of my parentage from people with oh-so creative names like "Burcham sux" and "Rants N' Raves blows" and "birchum is fat".

Ain't the anonymnity of th' Innernet jes grand, JWK?

And, no, you are NOT Satan for not liking IDC, Jeffery.......

You are a monkey-head doo-doo brain, neener-neener-neener!

Is that about the level of intellegence you are receiving, Jeff?

[Sk8maven]

That's my opinion of "Identity Crisis". Several good characters destroyed and the DCU's alpha team besmirched, and for what? A plotline that would have been laughably bad even on daytime soap opera. :p

Who benefits? DC's laughing all the way to the bank at the way it took so many fans so thoroughly to the cleaners.

Maven

[David O Burcham]

I will go into exact detail why I loved IDC.

Keith Giffen sez it was a good read. I'm a Giffen zombie and follow his every word blindly.

Nah, I just liked it. But, I liked Devil Dinosaur and Sludge...so what do I know from "good"?

[The Xenos]

I voated bad. I didn't buy IC, but I read more than enough in the store. It jsut was such a terrible book that left a bad taste in my mind. PLus the whole thing panned out to nothing that it pretended to be and it really XXXXed over Bat-characters for no damn good reason. I still don't know how Sue even knew about Tim's dad! I wish there was one lower then bad that didn't call Meltzer evil. It bugs me that he wrote this dreck because I really liked his run on Green Arrow.

-Xenos

[JeffreyWKramer]

And, no, you are NOT Satan for not liking IDC, Jeffery.......

You are a monkey-head doo-doo brain, neener-neener-neener!

Is that about the level of intellegence you are receiving, Jeff?

That's actually a lot more intelligent than most of what was sent, because your statement includes multi-syllable words and is correctly spelled.

[David O Burcham]

That's actually a lot more intelligent than most of what was sent, because your statement includes multi-syllable words and is correctly spelled.
They spell worse than "neener-neener-neener"???? :eek:

What a bunch of losers!

I'll bet they even used "Rose Art" instead of "Crayola".

[pureclint]

Like I said, you have taken comments critical to "Identity Crisis" almost personally. Maybe that is not how you want to come across, but whenever I make a general comment on how I feel about it you seem to take a personal offense. Not that I care, but to you it seems that you're especially sensitive to comments against "Identity Crisis."

So again because I disagree with you and other people who disliked IC and asked you some questions or I think Ollie acted fine I take it personally..

Ok I will make a note, "If Idisagree with smarty then I take Comics to sierously".
You really have to go out of the way to make that somewhat relational, given that Tim Drake's identity is not commonly known by most of the DC Universe. At one point Oracle and a good portion of Batman's closest confidantes did not know that Tim Drake was Robin, so how an obscure ex-wife of a reserve JLA member knew goes beyond suspending belief.

That is a problem I have agreed with but that is not what you said>
You said "and ultimately having Jack Drake killed had anything to do with Sue Dibny's death". That is a entirelly different thing then the plausability of Jean knowing Jacks relation to Robin. Perhaps you just need to be conistent with your remarks.

[Smarty Jones]

"That is a problem I have agreed with but that is not what you said>You said 'and ultimately having Jack Drake killed had anything to do with Sue Dibny's death.' That is a entirelly different thing then the plausability of Jean knowing Jacks relation to Robin. Perhaps you just need to be conistent with your remarks."

Maybe then I should have said, "Ultimately having Jack Drake killed had nothing LOGICALLY to do with Sue Dibny's death." That way, you can be right even though you're saying implicitly that you agree that it's senseless and requires dumb logic, but doggone it you're right!

BTW, the answer is still the same. The logic of having Sue Dibny's death linked to Jack Drake's is so out-of-the-way ridiculous that it is insulting. The common link here is a woman who by my record NEVER EVEN MET JACK OR TIM DRAKE, much less knew that Tim Drake was Robin. There is no connection, save some poor excuse for writing by Brad Meltzer.

"I had Jack Drake killed because I wanted to throw off the heroes' trail." It may make some sense if it was someone who knew both Dibny and Drake, but since Jean Loring didn't it makes it all the more insulting. There is no connection save for just some decision to tie up a story with inane logic, and only an inane person (which in this case would be you) would defend it.

You can't defend it and no amount of backpedalling or spin you put on it isn't going to change that. They're tied together, but with one of the most ridiculous forms of logic I have seen in fiction. What's even more hilarious is the amount of energy you're using to defend this, as if you did write "Identity Crisis."

[The Xenos]

Ok, thank you, so the book doesn't give any reason why Jean knew Jack Drake or his connection to Robin. I wasn't sure if I missed something just looking over the books in stores and reading replies online. That really bugs me. As if Tim and the whole Bat-world hasn't been tortured (or raped or murdered) enough recently, Metzger throws in this additional little blow and it doesn't even make sense. Bah.

-Xenos

[Thnikkaman]

It was good. Could've been great. Wasn't.

[Sandy Hausler]

Setting aside the nits, I have a problem with the solution. We are being led to believe that Jean Loring would act in such a manner to get Ray Palmer back. Let's keep in mind that she wanted to get rid of him quite a while ago. I just don't buy it.

Sandy Hausler

[JeffreyWKramer]

Setting aside the nits, I have a problem with the solution. We are being led to believe that Jean Loring would act in such a manner to get Ray Palmer back. Let's keep in mind that she wanted to get rid of him quite a while ago. I just don't buy it.

Sandy Hausler
Oh... but she's nuts. That's supposed to explain everything.

Let's add "basic human psychology" and "mental illness" to the huge list of things IC demonstrates Meltzer knows virtually nothing about.

[TCJohnson]

Have some guts and grow some balls, folks.

So far this morning, I've received PMs and emails from multiple folk (one using a Yahoo ID that doesn't match any CBR name) that more or less constitute hate mail from folk who don't like me dissing total crap books like IDENTITY CRISIS and GL: REBIRTH on this Forum. The more thoughtful critiques I've received have included brilliance like "There's a Rumbles thread for all this negativity, why bring it to the DCU board?" and "Why don't you just post on books you like, then, rather than dissing ones others like?"

The less thoughtful ones... well, I imagine if they'd been expressed in a traditional letter, said letter would have been written in green Crayola on Big Chief tablet paper.

Guys, if you want to quiz me or call my judgment into question, feel free... but do it in the Forums, please.

As to answers to your queries, pick an answer from the choices listed below.
a) because there are so many more crap books these days
b) because someone has to try to talk some sense and taste into you guys
c) because I'm Satan
d) All of the above

Well, if it makes you feel better I have been flamed on many boards for liking IDC.

But still, don't tell me I don't have any taste because I like this book.

[Sandy Hausler]

Oh... but she's nuts. That's supposed to explain everything.

Let's add "basic human psychology" and "mental illness" to the huge list of things IC demonstrates Meltzer knows virtually nothing about.


Well, after reading the whole thing, I have to agree with you. And BTW, since when has Green Arrrow become such a tough guy that changing the minds of bad guys, let alone good guys, would have no effect on him? Heck, I'd think it would have an effect on Zatanna after a while.

Sandy Hausler

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, after reading the whole thing, I have to agree with you. And BTW, since when has Green Arrrow become such a tough guy that changing the minds of bad guys, let alone good guys, would have no effect on him? Heck, I'd think it would have an effect on Zatanna after a while.

As to Ollie.... well, since never. The idea of brainwashing people... okay, this was the era when Ollie always called Hawkman a feathered fascist. The idea that he'd go along with thought tampering - and doing so to an *ally* even - is just ludicrous. That is on par with seriously suggesting that Batman keeps adopting kid sidekicks in order to molest them. As to Z, I recall her and her dad both talking about the risk of being corrupted by doing the wrong things with magic. Beyond that... well, Hawkman has always been hardcore, but he's also loyal to a fault, so the idea he'd cotton to mindwiping Batman is ludicrous, as is the idea Barry Allen or Hal Jordan would go along with it.

Hell, we can't even blame this dumness from Hal on that yellow fear monster Johns has saddled him with in REBIRTH, because the brainwipes happened earlier in continuity than that silliness.

Add the loathesome idea that Superman chooses to ignore - or willfully blinds himself to - seriously immoral acts by his colleagues, and all told, you have absolutely, 100% wrong characterization through this book.

[Mia]

I went with "Ok". If it wasn't for issue 7 I would have said good. Knowing Meltzers style, I wasn't prepared for world literature. But still considering the build up and all the elements involved the pay off should have been much better. On the other hand I have to give full marks for a story I (for once) really enjoyed reading and could not wait to get my hands on. There are very few books in the industry that have this sort of effect on me.

[JeffreyWKramer]

There are very few books in the industry that have this sort of effect on me.

IC also had an effect on me. Nausea. Thankfully, antacids helped.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Ha! People are actually sending you PMs because you don't like IC or Rebirth? That's pretty silly. Why would they bother? As long as the arguements are reasonable, I couldn't care less if people like the things I do.

Now that I've finally gotten a chance to read a few issues of Identity Crisis instead of just reading all the hysterical posts about it, what is the big freaking deal?

This is hardly ground-breaking stuff or even worthy of being a source of so much righteous indignation. The rape scene was far more tame and vague than anything in the Killing Joke, which featured the sexual assault of a far more recognizable character than Sue Dibny ever was--and I could give a flying f*** if you don't think Joker raped Batgirl, so nobody bother with that retort. The plotholes and characterization gaffs in IC were no more problematic than the phonomenal mistakes DC has made with many of their characters throughout the years. Retconning much of the classic JLA into people capable of making dubious moral decisions is an fairly minor addition that most writers will no doubt ignore completely within a couple years anyway. This is little more than the late 80s redux. Grim n' Gritty with a new coat of paint. Yet, to hear some fans talk about this, this is the worst thing to happen to comics in decades.

Bah, its just another comic book. If it's not to your liking, buy something else. DC has plenty of other worthwhile comics featuring DC characters that won't involve any of this kind of stuff. This little trend will have played itself out by the end of next year and superheroes will be all bright and shiny again...and then all the grim n' gritty folk can complain about that.

[DDM]

Sad but true. Most kids between the ages of 6 and 13 don't even read comics anymore.
I offered to buy my 6 yr-old nephew subscriptions to any 2 Marvel Age comics he wanted, but he couldn't have cared less. He wants nothing to do with anything unless YuGiOh is involved.

Give him several older comics you don't read anymore & that you wouldn't mind parting with. Let him discover them when you give the books to him. Then, in a few weeks or months, ask him again if he would like a couple comic book subscriptions...

[DDM]

Identity Crisis is a an average story, but it did not live to DC's hype. Brian Meltzer is not Agatha Christie or even Jessica Fletcher. He should absolve himself from writing future murder mysteries.

[pureclint]

As to Ollie.... well, since never. The idea of brainwashing people... okay, this was the era when Ollie always called Hawkman a feathered fascist. The idea that he'd go along with thought tampering - and doing so to an *ally* even - is just ludicrous.


See I think you are having selective memory here, Ollie, as shown in IC, did NOT go along with any of the mind wipes. He punched Carter and quit the team as shown in the book, exactly what I would expect him to do. So he did not rat out his friends, Ollie has always been fairly loyal to his pals.

Years later after, his own death and a attempted rape of his love and numerous other things he has learned to deal with it. The add in the fact he allso is not quiet the hippy he was back then (or before he his character was changed only to differentiate him from batman) now either.

Smarty, I have agreed that Metz dropped the ball by not explaining how Jean knew of Jack, but she knew of Lois she can shrink. I can rationize it by saying hey she hid and spied on the big two(Remember she did use Lois for a specific purpose), but not showing it did hurt the story. To me it was a minor plot hole in a good story that served as a basis for more possible tales and shined a new light on a few things in the DCU.

Would the story have been better in your eye if they had one panel showing her spying on the heroes before she set off her plan?

And since we communicate here through the written word how you phrase things does affect how we interpret them. So by not including a word and since the discussion of the link of Jacks Death went on for pages in the IC thread it logically led to me taking what you wrote as what you thought.

[Mia]

Bah, its just another comic book. If it's not to your liking, buy something else. DC has plenty of other worthwhile comics featuring DC characters that won't involve any of this kind of stuff. This little trend will have played itself out by the end of next year and superheroes will be all bright and shiny again...and then all the grim n' gritty folk can complain about that.

Sounds like an ingenious plan!

[Matt Algren]

See I think you are having selective memory here, Ollie, as shown in IC, did NOT go along with any of the mind wipes. He punched Carter and quit the team as shown in the book, exactly what I would expect him to do. So he did not rat out his friends, Ollie has always been fairly loyal to his pals.
It's not enough for a "hero" to quit the team. A hero acts heroically, which is not what Ollie did in this story. This is a character that has historically taken the moral high ground and fought for his beliefs. It was completely out of character for him to go along with the mindwipe, and completely out of character for him to not report the offense and make reparations.

Smarty, I have agreed that Metz dropped the ball by not explaining how Jean knew of Jack, but she knew of Lois she can shrink. I can rationize it by saying hey she hid and spied on the big two(Remember she did use Lois for a specific purpose), but not showing it did hurt the story. To me it was a minor plot hole in a good story that served as a basis for more possible tales and shined a new light on a few things in the DCU.

Would the story have been better in your eye if they had one panel showing her spying on the heroes before she set off her plan?

Speaking for myself, yes it would have been a better story if the author had explained the story. It is not the reader's job to write the story from inference. That's the writer's job.

[JeffreyWKramer]

See I think you are having selective memory here, Ollie, as shown in IC, did NOT go along with any of the mind wipes. He punched Carter and quit the team as shown in the book, exactly what I would expect him to do. So he did not rat out his friends, Ollie has always been fairly loyal to his pals.

No selective memory here, pal. See, based on your comments, I think *you* can't read at a level sufficient to comprehend a DC superhero comic.

Ollie did nothing to stop the mind-screwing. He didn't reveal their wrongdoing. He took part in the cover-up... including covering up brainwashing one of his colleagues. Back in those days, he'd punch Hawkman over disagreements about pizza ingredients. According to Meltzer, he apparently didn't consider this matter any more important than any number of small things he tussled with Carter about.

Remember, the decision to brainwash Batman was depicted as *unanimous.

[pureclint]

It's not enough for a "hero" to quit the team. A hero acts heroically, which is not what Ollie did in this story. This is a character that has historically taken the moral high ground and fought for his beliefs. It was completely out of character for him to go along with the mindwipe, and completely out of character for him to not report the offense and make reparations.

Has Ollie turned himself into the authorites when he has killed in the past? Moral high ground, yeah same guy who abandoned his son and had numerous other personal failings. I see fighting a all yand quiting your team even as your bestfriend tries to soothe you as doing something...

Speaking for myself, yes it would have been a better story if the author had explained the story. It is not the reader's job to write the story from inference. That's the writer's job.

True.


No selective memory here, pal. See, based on your comments, I think *you* can't read at a level sufficient to comprehend a DC superhero comic.

Ollie did nothing to stop the mind-screwing. He didn't reveal their wrongdoing. He took part in the cover-up... including covering up brainwashing one of his colleagues. Back in those days, he'd punch Hawkman over disagreements about pizza ingredients. According to Meltzer, he apparently didn't consider this matter any more important than any number of small things he tussled with Carter about.

Remember, the decision to brainwash Batman was depicted as *unanimous.

Yes and after the heads cooled some Ollie stormed out and quit.

And I see it as selective memory (thanks for tossing it personal insults yet I am the one who takes it personal as I have been told) to say Ollie did nothing when ia few sentences later you say he did. HAVING A FIGHT and voting NO are both doing something, maybe not doing what you wanted but it is doing something. "It was always politics" and "I thought it was ruined for years" are both things he said. HThe incident obviously took a long time to deal with for him.
Hey what issue did they throw down over pizza?

[Matt Algren]

Has Ollie turned himself into the authorites when he has killed in the past? Moral high ground, yeah same guy who abandoned his son and had numerous other personal failings. I see fighting a all yand quiting your team even as your bestfriend tries to soothe you as doing something...
Killing in battle is expected. Returning fire is expected. Covering up for brainwashing someone and setting him loose is not.

IIRC, Ollie didn't know Connor existed. I haven't followed the book lately, so that may have changed.

"Personal failings" is on a different scale than what we're talking about.

And I see it as selective memory to say Ollie did nothing when ia few sentences later you say he did. HAVING A FIGHT and voting NO are both doing something, maybe not doing what you wanted but it is doing something. "It was always politics" and "I thought it was ruined for years" are both things he said. HThe incident obviously took a long time to deal with for him.
The point is that Ollie (and Hal and Barry and Carter and Dinah and Zatanna) was acting extremely out of character. Voting and arguing is considerably less than the character has historically (and currently) been written as being expected to do.

[The Shadow]

Speaking for myself, yes it would have been a better story if the author had explained the story. It is not the reader's job to write the story from inference. That's the writer's job.
Yeah... the reader can be left wondering from one issue to another... but all points should have been dealt with... and NOT by reader speculation!

[Calamas]

The problem with this poll--as well as all IC polls--is it asks us to assign a rating to an extremely uneven series. Unless you are one of those who hated it from issue one, it is impossible to sum up your feelings in one rubber-stamp answer; none of the options are correct. If the question had been, “Which was the worst issue?” we would come as close as we ever will to a unanimous answer.

My problem is, Brad Meltzer let me down. I had read his other work and I was promising others after six issues, “Don’t worry, there’s more to it, there is something we are accepting as true that isn’t; there’s a plot twist coming, not the solution to a mystery.” As to that last part, I was wrong twice.

That’s where I feel a lot of this negativity is coming from; issue seven let us down and now we have to apologize for liking the rest of it. Again, this is for those of us who didn’t hate it all along. And that’s why the one thing we can’t claim is that it was poorly written. Meltzer did that part of his job all too well. He kept us coming back. Identity Crisis would have been my Number 1 at Your 2004 DC Top 10 if the final issue had come out next year. But this year, in this mini-series, Meltzer failed to deliver.

I’ve been reading lately how the DC editors interfered with the story and changed his ending. Since I’ve seen nothing anybody is willing to put their name to, I consider this Internet speculation. On the other hand, in another IC thread a poster was accused by another of being an unpaid shill for DC. I’m forced to sadly concluded that--whether by premeditation or circumstance--Brad Meltzer, with IC#7, became a paid shill for DC:

The fate of Captain Boomerang Jr. Oh, Door #1, The Flash. The ramifications of the death of Jack Drake. Door #2, Robin. Deathstroke’s revenge. Door #3, Green Arrow. The mindwipe of Batman. Give me a second to count--Got it! There are several hoops--I mean, doors--you have to jump through; I'll give you a list soon of all the the titles you need to buy. And the price the Justice League will have to pay for their actions? Well, we have these arcs already planned . . . but we’ll get to it. You don’t mind waiting, do you? Sure, you don’t mind. Right? Right?

Well, Do you?

[Smarty Jones]

"Smarty, I have agreed that Metz dropped the ball by not explaining how Jean knew of Jack, but she knew of Lois she can shrink. I can rationize it by saying hey she hid and spied on the big two(Remember she did use Lois for a specific purpose), but not showing it did hurt the story."

This does not explain anything about how Jean Loring knew who Jack and Tim Drake were. Tim Drake became Robin years after Loring divorced Ray Palmer plus Palmer has never had any connection to the Drakes at all, much less know that Tim Drake is Robin. It's not a minor plot error but bad writing that blows yet another gaping hole in the entire story.

As for explaining Lois Lane (who is otherwise inconsequential to this part of the debate), it is logical that Loring would know her. After all, Superman and The Atom have been longtime teammates so there is a plausible reason how Loring knew her. There is none between Loring and the Drakes, and considering how the story ended someone else likely will have to write a backstory to the connection -- in other words, another writer will handle the feces-filled diaper Brad Meltzer created.

"To me it was a minor plot hole in a good story that served as a basis for more possible tales and shined a new light on a few things in the DCU."

Shine a light on the DC Universe? "Identity Crisis" made a mockery of the characters. You've got amoral "heroes" who are slightly less organized and capable than the villains they fought complete with stark sexual violence and senseless murders, wrapped with a conclusion so utterly bad that it makes one wonder whether Meltzer had to rewrite his ending. There was nothing heroic about The JLA in this book. In fact, they were no different than the villains.

"Would the story have been better in your eye if they had one panel showing her spying on the heroes before she set off her plan?"

IMO, this story was finished way before the final issue hit the stands. "Identity Crisis" left a very bad taste in my mouth, and the final issue was an insult. But I've already said this before, so this is not new to you.

"So by not including a word and since the discussion of the link of Jacks Death went on for pages in the IC thread it logically led to me taking what you wrote as what you thought."

So if someone does not respond to a comment said by others in a thread you're going to assume something? What grade are you in, because that sounds so silly.

BTW, as for Ollie Queen's personality as you've asked before. Green Arrow's liberal policy has been status quo for him for some 30 years, when he was being developed as a fleshed-out personality. When you commented on his earlier appearances that he was "Batman with a quiver," that was before he had developed his own personality. Given such personality has been par for the course for a good portion of his run, I expect him to express views somewhat similar to that.

"Identity Crisis" was a contradiction to Green Arrow's personality. Here, we're given a character who is amoral and shows no remorse for his actions. Queen came off more like Jack Hawksmoor in "The Authority" than the character I have read.

P.S. I'll have to reread "Identity Crisis" to confirm your comment on Green Arrow quitting after the incident with Dr. Light, but if that is the case even that is contradictory to what happened in canon. Green Arrow quit in the Silver Ages because he felt smaller and insignificant in a group that just added Firestorm to its list of heavy hitters.

[The Xenos]

I really agree with Calamas. While I didn't like it from the start and was horrified by some of the things during the series, I hoped Meltzer would have a good ending to make it all worth while. I loved his GA run and hoped somethign solid would come out of this. The way he jsut abused the characters and had so many huge holes we're poking at now, that just disapointed me. It felt like we were being trhown about in a pinball of angst dressed up in superhero costumes without any real reasoning for all the harsh hits we felt.

I also must concur with Smarty, especially as I'm angey over the nonsensical Drake connection and the portrayl of the whole JLA.

-Xenos

[Corrina]

I’ve been reading lately how the DC editors interfered with the story and changed his ending. Since I’ve seen nothing anybody is willing to put their name to, I consider this Internet speculation. On the other hand, in another IC thread a poster was accused by another of being an unpaid shill for DC. I’m forced to sadly concluded that--whether by premeditation or circumstance--Brad Meltzer, with IC#7, became a paid shill for DC:



I had heard, from very reliable sources (the same ones that said Spoiler was toast), that Kyle was supposed to be the ID Crisis killer.

The main plotline was that there was an imperfection in Kyle's ring that was causing him to go crazy and re-enact the scenario of what happened to his girlfriend Alex, the same type of ring imperfection that (it would be revealed) which made Hal go crazy.

So Kyle was simultaneously trying to kill wives/relatives of heroes because it was his being a hero that killed Alex but also sane enough to try and save them at the same time--hence Jean's rescue and sending Jack a gun.

When I first heard it, I thought 'My God, what is DC editorial smoking? They had years of people hating Hal turned into a killer and now they do it to Kyle?'

But, at that, it makes more sense to the way IC played out than Jean being the killer. Kyle's motivations would go back to the theme of the price heroes pay for being heroes and his insanity (identity crisis?). Also, someone with a power ring could commit the crime (particularly Sue's death) and not leave evidence. Not that I like making Kyle evil or insane, I'm just saying it seems to fit more with the mini-series than Jean being the killer. Her being the killer isn't related to the thematic elements at all--it's just a kind of Fatal Attraction thing.

And isn't GL: Rebirth bringing up some of these issues, that a ring imperfection is what caused Hal to go crazy? (Not sure, waiting for the trade on that one.)

So where have you heard DC had Meltzer re-write the ending Calamus?

[Smarty Jones]

Given how "Identity Crisis" ended, it would make sense that Brad Meltzer had to rewrite the ending. However, that proposed Kyle Rayner ending that Corrina suggested sounds like some sort of tie-in to "Green Lantern: Rebirth."

Personally, I would have preferred a more straightforward approach. If the side benefit of "Identity Crisis" was to make the villains more ominous, wouldn't it have made sense that someone like The Key (a long-time villain whose body was alterated by Zatanna and then he went into a coma for some 20 years) or The Mist (a long-time JSA villain) was the killer? Or the fact that it makes sense is a reason why it was rejected?

[Huh?]

Well, I guess people on both sides of the fence feel pretty strongly.

I voted "average." Here's why:

The Pros:

1- The art was good IMO and turned me on to Rags Morales
2- 6 of 7 issues were decent
3- In terms of writing, I thought it was competent

The Cons:

1- The series came nowhere near living up to all the hype
2- Issue 7 was an awful conclusion to the story, it made little sense
3- There seems to be no need for this mini within the DCU, it could have been dealt with in the normal monthlies.

I am not a freak for continuity, so that stuff doesn't really bother me.

[Wayne Voto]

I did think that Identity Crisis was an excelent story. It had people talking and with luck it will have lasting effect on the DCU.

[macul]

I thought it was pretty good up until the end. I thought all those loose ends would tie up (or at least be explored a bit more!) and we'd find out who the killer was along with a littany of hints we missed along the way. But come the last issue those things just didn't happen. I felt a bit cheated as the story seemed to just end with a "she's insane!" copout with no clues along the way. I voted BAD.

[macul]

Given how "Identity Crisis" ended, it would make sense that Brad Meltzer had to rewrite the ending.

I've thought of that and it does make a bit of sense. The last issue just seemed so sloppy that it is conceivable the ending was re-written.

[pureclint]

Killing in battle is expected. Returning fire is expected. Covering up for brainwashing someone and setting him loose is not.

IIRC, Ollie didn't know Connor existed. I haven't followed the book lately, so that may have changed.

"Personal failings" is on a different scale than what we're talking about.


In archers quest we found out Ollie knew all along about Connor...

No we are talking about morals, Ollie has never been portayed as Jesus. He hit Speedy when he found out he was on drugs, he has had make up with Canary due to a wandering eye, in JLA:Y1 he hid the fact he was sposoring the whole team from the concerned team, and on and on

I understand killing someone is perfectly valid in certain situations, but how can you feel it is valid for Ollie to be ok with killing someone who is about to rape Dinah but not remove the "evil" part of Lights thoughts (from reading it the "he is dumb" was a mistake). So dead and not thinking is ok but alive and not being a criminal mastermind is not...


Are you ok with them removing bits of memories?

Shine a light on the DC Universe? "Identity Crisis" made a mockery of the characters. You've got amoral "heroes" who are slightly less organized and capable than the villains they fought complete with stark sexual violence and senseless murders, wrapped with a conclusion so utterly bad that it makes one wonder whether Meltzer had to rewrite his ending. There was nothing heroic about The JLA in this book. In fact, they were no different than the villains.

I lthink it haas shed some light on somethings, I enjoy the Amped up Villians and the tackling of the "rehabilitation" issue, heck even the memory whipes of secret identies is a differnt light. What Hero is a perfect Paragon of Virtue? Wally, Kyle, Batman, Superman and a few others seemed Heroic to me.



So if someone does not respond to a comment said by others in a thread you're going to assume something? What grade are you in, because that sounds so silly.

Ugh, if you leave out words how are people who read your posts going to understand what you really ment to say? When we are communicating through the written word, what you write equals what you think. By leaving out logical the sentence I disputed with you had a entirely different meaning.




BTW, as for Ollie Queen's personality as you've asked before. Green Arrow's liberal policy has been status quo for him for some 30 years, when he was being developed as a fleshed-out personality. When you commented on his earlier appearances that he was "Batman with a quiver," that was before he had developed his own personality. Given such personality has been par for the course for a good portion of his run, I expect him to express views somewhat similar to that.


And that was mainly brought up because you (and others) have said you do not like when characters are not portyaed conistantly, I was just showing Ollie has come a long way from a rich playboy with arrows.



"Identity Crisis" was a contradiction to Green Arrow's personality. Here, we're given a character who is amoral and shows no remorse for his actions. Queen came off more like Jack Hawksmoor in "The Authority" than the character I have read.

P.S. I'll have to reread "Identity Crisis" to confirm your comment on Green Arrow quitting after the incident with Dr. Light, but if that is the case even that is contradictory to what happened in canon. Green Arrow quit in the Silver Ages because he felt smaller and insignificant in a group that just added Firestorm to its list of heavy hitters.


He does show remorse: as I have said he felt the league was ruined for a long time, it shows him slumped over leaving the watchtower with Canary and Hal consoling him. And again if he can accept killing someone he should be able to eventually accept this..